Guild Wars 2

Thor Malen.8291:

I don’t know what a Raid is really. I never played WoW so can somebody explain to me what a Raid is?

It’s a pluggable instance which is obviously easier if you have a practiced group of experienced players. It usually takes multiple nights a week to finish the first time and with practice can be completed in a few hours time. It usually requires some sort of chat program to communicate for sake of organization. Usually has 8ish-10ish bosses that you can expect to wipe multiple times to. Raiding is that feeling you get when you wipe 300 times to the hardest boss in the game and have the boss at 1% health with all but 2 people dead and those 2 people take it home and the screams can be heard through the voice chat.

I really don’t see how 10 man (raids? seems a bit small for a"raid") dungeon is going to scratch anyones itch for Raids.

Raids typically are the pinnacle of coordinated group efforts where everyone has an exact role to play, and needs to play that role near perfect for the instance to go well.

This game specializes in everyone running around DPS’ing stuff. There are no set healers or agro tanks really…those some can occasionally fill that roll slightly, for a short time.

Really I get why they are doing this, just I don’t think its going to be executed in a manner that will satisfy anyone who takes a break from this game to raid in another game.

They should be piling on content that is coordinated with how this game plays. Make more epic, insane, difficult, world events, designed for masses of people to complete…make some of those even more coordinated ect.

You cant have a proper raid when you lack the trinity. Skyforge did this (little know game that came out recently) and lacks a trinity system (less so than this game) and it was just coordinated DPS targeting…as you cant really do much more than that.

UNLESS…they have special items in the raid that actually allow someone to become a tank and healer (like a healing staff on the ground and a tank shield, that bestow unique skills for whoever equips them) which would be cheesy imo

Zalavaaris.5329:

Thor Malen.8291:

I don’t know what a Raid is really. I never played WoW so can somebody explain to me what a Raid is?

It’s a pluggable instance which is obviously easier if you have a practiced group of experienced players. It usually takes multiple nights a week to finish the first time and with practice can be completed in a few hours time. It usually requires some sort of chat program to communicate for sake of organization. Usually has 8ish-10ish bosses that you can expect to wipe multiple times to. Raiding is that feeling you get when you wipe 300 times to the hardest boss in the game and have the boss at 1% health with all but 2 people dead and those 2 people take it home and the screams can be heard through the voice chat.

Thank you

Zalavaaris.5329:

Yea unfortunately all of my wow raiding friends left wow when they more or less disolved 10 man heroic raiding guilds. I tried to recruit them over here as i’m an avid player of both games. Instead they went to ff14 and they said there’s so much to do that they refuse to even try the free version. The time spent away from ff14 when they could be raiding isn’t worth their hard drive space. It’s sooooo sad because raiding with gw2 combat is going to truly be a unique raiding experience. And collecting legendary precursor armor that leads to an epic journey to craft the ultimate godly looking gear is going to make it even better.

Interesting how different people can be. My friends who play FF14 were complaining that the Xpack didn’t really add a whole lot once you level up your primary Job. It was a level grind through some new zones that consisted of the same linear fights over and over to level. Then new raids which are slowly being phased in like the GW2 ones will be. Right now they all do their one raid a week for the new Alexander raid and then go back to twiddling their thumbs or playing other games (like GW2).

Thor Malen.8291:

I don’t know what a Raid is really. I never played WoW so can somebody explain to me what a Raid is?

Multi group content. Technically you could call open world bosses raids, but they’ve taken on a connotation of instanced multi group content made for a more organized team generally seen as the step up from your typical group instanced content.

Kevan.8912:

The issue is not if there is a check or not.

It’s about:
-a vertical progression (and with masteries, sure it is a progression. Still don’t know how much “work” it requires but: no matter if easily gained as exotics, but ascendeds is a dramatic, mandatory stat for FOTM.. and a hard grind. I expect them to be sufficiently long process to keep players busy for a while.),
-grind (as seemingly you need exp, and although it can be done with non repetitive tasks, there always a more efficient way. I can gather gold, dragonite ore and silk to afford a full ascended set or a legendary weapon, also playing casually…but in a unreasonable amount of time.)
and treadmill (not a gear treadmill. but a exp treadmill? a specialisation/mastery treadmill? still here it is: because if a player logs in after a while, if he was once on a par with other players, but they kept playing…he is no more even with them – ).

These are my personal reasons not lo log in anymore to gw2.
I won’t argue if manifesto was a realistic one, if they lied or not…
but nothing changed about the things I listed above. So no reasons to come back to play with the exp.

I doubt they are gonna change it just for you. There are not enough players thinking like you for them to be forced to change either. Sorry bud…

As for Gear check in Dungeons… My personal fav is to keep a set of that zerk gear and food handy, just to post it for them, then get in there and run whatever the hell I want. 9.9 times out of 10, it makes 0 difference… Usually that .1 percent is missing dodges etc… or laggyness

StrangerDanger.3496:

I really don’t see how 10 man (raids? seems a bit small for a"raid") dungeon is going to scratch anyones itch for Raids.

Raids typically are the pinnacle of coordinated group efforts where everyone has an exact role to play, and needs to play that role near perfect for the instance to go well.

This game specializes in everyone running around DPS’ing stuff. There are no set healers or agro tanks really…those some can occasionally fill that roll slightly, for a short time.

Really I get why they are doing this, just I don’t think its going to be executed in a manner that will satisfy anyone who takes a break from this game to raid in another game.

They should be piling on content that is coordinated with how this game plays. Make more epic, insane, difficult, world events, designed for masses of people to complete…make some of those even more coordinated ect.

You cant have a proper raid when you lack the trinity. Skyforge did this (little know game that came out recently) and lacks a trinity system (less so than this game) and it was just coordinated DPS targeting…as you cant really do much more than that.

UNLESS…they have special items in the raid that actually allow someone to become a tank and healer (like a healing staff on the ground and a tank shield, that bestow unique skills for whoever equips them) which would be cheesy imo

You don’t need a tank/healer to have roles.

When I form an Arah or fractal party I want at least 1 Mesmer/guard for their high reflect up time. I want 1 Engi/Thief for stealth and blinds. Then I want to cover my Might production which best option is warrior, but an Ele has better fury and can do the might job especially working together with the team.

There’s a reason your general fractal groups have something like that. If you go read in the dungeon forums you’ll see it’s advised to go with a Guard/Thief/War/EleX2 setup in general, it’s because they cover all the roles you’d want in very optimal ways. If it were all about DPS you’d go with either 5X Ele or 4Ele + PS War. But it’s not.

StrangerDanger.3496:

I really don’t see how 10 man (raids? seems a bit small for a"raid") dungeon is going to scratch anyones itch for Raids.

Raids typically are the pinnacle of coordinated group efforts where everyone has an exact role to play, and needs to play that role near perfect for the instance to go well.

This game specializes in everyone running around DPS’ing stuff. There are no set healers or agro tanks really…those some can occasionally fill that roll slightly, for a short time.

Really I get why they are doing this, just I don’t think its going to be executed in a manner that will satisfy anyone who takes a break from this game to raid in another game.

They should be piling on content that is coordinated with how this game plays. Make more epic, insane, difficult, world events, designed for masses of people to complete…make some of those even more coordinated ect.

You cant have a proper raid when you lack the trinity. Skyforge did this (little know game that came out recently) and lacks a trinity system (less so than this game) and it was just coordinated DPS targeting…as you cant really do much more than that.

UNLESS…they have special items in the raid that actually allow someone to become a tank and healer (like a healing staff on the ground and a tank shield, that bestow unique skills for whoever equips them) which would be cheesy imo

This is exactly what I’m worried about. This game has proven to be a dps only free for all where the only coordination involves stacking for buffs and stunning the mobs or timing reflects/stealth timing. When I think raiding I think of a mechanic that introduces a debuff that when cleansed takes 50% health from you but if let to expire will one shot you. It’s those kind of mechanics that if not dealt with via coordination and assigned debuff removal that will transcend what gw2 pvers think about when they think pve. That’s just one example of a true raid mechanic and there needs to be multiple of those per fight (some more harsh than others) to make this a real raiding experience.

So raids, best armor in game will drop in raids, can change stats on armor at will. So either people will do the raid and get the gear the complain nothing drops from raids and no reason to do them OR the peices will be split so only 1-2 legendary peices drop per raid at a low drop rate to keep people doing them and we will see people complain that the rewards are low for the time invest and difficulty.

I don’t see how raids can ever pay off and not be a giant butch fest, either to hard and to exclusive or hard but doable by a good precent of people and the top players complain to easy and low skilled players complain its to hard.

I will raid, since i like wvw and the armor is to good to pass up. I just don’t see how its going to be this awesome thing people are making it out to be.

Usually i hate grinding. Doing the same dungeon over and over is wasted time.
And as long as this has no impact on playing WvW or PvP i don´t care. If it becomes a requirement, because of more powerful equipment, it can drive me off.
So enjoy it. I will play it but not excessive.

Lux Dominatoris.3941:

myself.2143:

I almost never see anyone looking to do dungeons or fractals. After a month or two, I wonder if anyone will even care about raids anymore.

Ayyy lmao bad troll attempt, very bad.

The guy is right. If you are a casual you rarely get to do a dungeon or fractal unless it is a daily. So if its hard to find 5 random people to do a dungeon, how easy will it be to find 10 especially if it is a lfg and not a free join

choyaxmd.6102:

Good move on Guild Wars 2 part but i’ve lost some friends and guildmates to other mmorpgs .. We have been waiting for raids for quite sometime now.. but as the title says too little too late..

The question is, what is considered too late?

GW2 is still for the most part B2P, if the expansion is good enough and the raids enticing enough mechanically, some people will drop 50 (or whatever sale the expansion may go on after launch) for the chance, and can come back whenever they choose due to not worrying about subs.

Zalavaaris.5329:

StrangerDanger.3496:

I really don’t see how 10 man (raids? seems a bit small for a"raid") dungeon is going to scratch anyones itch for Raids.

Raids typically are the pinnacle of coordinated group efforts where everyone has an exact role to play, and needs to play that role near perfect for the instance to go well.

This game specializes in everyone running around DPS’ing stuff. There are no set healers or agro tanks really…those some can occasionally fill that roll slightly, for a short time.

Really I get why they are doing this, just I don’t think its going to be executed in a manner that will satisfy anyone who takes a break from this game to raid in another game.

They should be piling on content that is coordinated with how this game plays. Make more epic, insane, difficult, world events, designed for masses of people to complete…make some of those even more coordinated ect.

You cant have a proper raid when you lack the trinity. Skyforge did this (little know game that came out recently) and lacks a trinity system (less so than this game) and it was just coordinated DPS targeting…as you cant really do much more than that.

UNLESS…they have special items in the raid that actually allow someone to become a tank and healer (like a healing staff on the ground and a tank shield, that bestow unique skills for whoever equips them) which would be cheesy imo

This is exactly what I’m worried about. This game has proven to be a dps only free for all where the only coordination involves stacking for buffs and stunning the mobs or timing reflects/stealth timing. When I think raiding I think of a mechanic that introduces a debuff that when cleansed takes 50% health from you but if let to expire will one shot you. It’s those kind of mechanics that if not dealt with via coordination and assigned debuff removal that will transcend what gw2 pvers think about when they think pve. That’s just one example of a true raid mechanic and there needs to be multiple of those per fight (some more harsh than others) to make this a real raiding experience.

No reason we can’t get those types of things. But as Colin said I think they want to focus less on UI watching and more on the on screen stuff. So you get an Aura (with a debuff icon just in case) that if not treated will down you on the spot (or kill?) to cleanse you need to go into an area with a caustic fog that damages you while in, make it a decent amount of damage(probably % based honestly) such that your trip in will leave you having to expend your personal heal and still come out low health, this promotes team healing, either through coordination with Ele/Engi’s standing nearby to rotate water fields for people to blast as they come out or maybe just a healing focused guardian or revenent.

The system is much broader and better than what we’ve seen with our current set of content.

Kevan.8912:

The issue is not if there is a check or not.

It’s about:
-a vertical progression (and with masteries, sure it is a progression. Still don’t know how much “work” it requires but: no matter if easily gained as exotics, but ascendeds is a dramatic, mandatory stat for FOTM.. and a hard grind. I expect them to be sufficiently long process to keep players busy for a while.),
-grind (as seemingly you need exp, and although it can be done with non repetitive tasks, there always a more efficient way. I can gather gold, dragonite ore and silk to afford a full ascended set or a legendary weapon, also playing casually…but in a unreasonable amount of time.)
and treadmill (not a gear treadmill. but a exp treadmill? a specialisation/mastery treadmill? still here it is: because if a player logs in after a while, if he was once on a par with other players, but they kept playing…he is no more even with them – ).

These are my personal reasons not lo log in anymore to gw2.
I won’t argue if manifesto was a realistic one, if they lied or not…
but nothing changed about the things I listed above. So no reasons to come back to play with the exp.

Progression is the point of an mmo. You get to see your character get stronger. Anet has decided to create a game that the rat-race of stats and gear essentially was removed and a static tier was all there was.

Now you’re complaining about having to level masteries?! A completely new system, and your complaing that “oh there’s grind now, guess I should quit”.

Well if adding a new system every few years that requires you to level something constitutes and endless grind for you, then you really should never play another mmo again honestly. Progression is what they’re built on. Anet has removed most of this from their game, but if even a sliver of it remains, people like you I guess creep up to say that that’s still not good enough.

CorrynnStarr.7942:

Kevan.8912:

The issue is not if there is a check or not.

It’s about:
-a vertical progression (and with masteries, sure it is a progression. Still don’t know how much “work” it requires but: no matter if easily gained as exotics, but ascendeds is a dramatic, mandatory stat for FOTM.. and a hard grind. I expect them to be sufficiently long process to keep players busy for a while.),
-grind (as seemingly you need exp, and although it can be done with non repetitive tasks, there always a more efficient way. I can gather gold, dragonite ore and silk to afford a full ascended set or a legendary weapon, also playing casually…but in a unreasonable amount of time.)
and treadmill (not a gear treadmill. but a exp treadmill? a specialisation/mastery treadmill? still here it is: because if a player logs in after a while, if he was once on a par with other players, but they kept playing…he is no more even with them – ).

These are my personal reasons not lo log in anymore to gw2.
I won’t argue if manifesto was a realistic one, if they lied or not…
but nothing changed about the things I listed above. So no reasons to come back to play with the exp.

I doubt they are gonna change it just for you. There are not enough players thinking like you for them to be forced to change either. Sorry bud…

As for Gear check in Dungeons… My personal fav is to keep a set of that zerk gear and food handy, just to post it for them, then get in there and run whatever the hell I want. 9.9 times out of 10, it makes 0 difference… Usually that .1 percent is missing dodges etc… or laggyness

You are part of the problem. They notice that you don’t have the right gear. And since they’re in the middle of the dungeon when they discover you lied to them about what you were wearing they decide it’s more hassle than it’s worth to kick you and get someone new.

You are the reason players that would not mind one non-meta in their group if they don’t lie about it when they accidentally join their group decide to just stop PUG’ing. Because they are tired of being lied to by players too inconsiderate to tell the truth.

You’re honestly worse than the jerk elites that join PHIW groups and try to take over. At least they’re honest in their intent. You’re not. To me, there’s nothing worse than a liar. And you can’t honestly tell me you aren’t lying. Because you know exactly what they mean by ping your gear and food. They mean the gear that you are wearing and the food you plan on actually using.

Jerus.4350:

Zalavaaris.5329:

StrangerDanger.3496:

I really don’t see how 10 man (raids? seems a bit small for a"raid") dungeon is going to scratch anyones itch for Raids.

Raids typically are the pinnacle of coordinated group efforts where everyone has an exact role to play, and needs to play that role near perfect for the instance to go well.

This game specializes in everyone running around DPS’ing stuff. There are no set healers or agro tanks really…those some can occasionally fill that roll slightly, for a short time.

Really I get why they are doing this, just I don’t think its going to be executed in a manner that will satisfy anyone who takes a break from this game to raid in another game.

They should be piling on content that is coordinated with how this game plays. Make more epic, insane, difficult, world events, designed for masses of people to complete…make some of those even more coordinated ect.

You cant have a proper raid when you lack the trinity. Skyforge did this (little know game that came out recently) and lacks a trinity system (less so than this game) and it was just coordinated DPS targeting…as you cant really do much more than that.

UNLESS…they have special items in the raid that actually allow someone to become a tank and healer (like a healing staff on the ground and a tank shield, that bestow unique skills for whoever equips them) which would be cheesy imo

This is exactly what I’m worried about. This game has proven to be a dps only free for all where the only coordination involves stacking for buffs and stunning the mobs or timing reflects/stealth timing. When I think raiding I think of a mechanic that introduces a debuff that when cleansed takes 50% health from you but if let to expire will one shot you. It’s those kind of mechanics that if not dealt with via coordination and assigned debuff removal that will transcend what gw2 pvers think about when they think pve. That’s just one example of a true raid mechanic and there needs to be multiple of those per fight (some more harsh than others) to make this a real raiding experience.

No reason we can’t get those types of things. But as Colin said I think they want to focus less on UI watching and more on the on screen stuff. So you get an Aura (with a debuff icon just in case) that if not treated will down you on the spot (or kill?) to cleanse you need to go into an area with a caustic fog that damages you while in, make it a decent amount of damage(probably % based honestly) such that your trip in will leave you having to expend your personal heal and still come out low health, this promotes team healing, either through coordination with Ele/Engi’s standing nearby to rotate water fields for people to blast as they come out or maybe just a healing focused guardian or revenent.

The system is much broader and better than what we’ve seen with our current set of content.

Imagine this. Same debuff I suggested. In this scenario someone needs to cleanse the condition. Everyone has their own condition removal but personal skill comes into play when deciding when to cleanse it. If you are bad and cleanse your own condition when you’re at 30% health because you panic…. Guess what… you’re dead. The best way to do this (and in my dreams 2 people get the debuff at the same time) would to be to make sure the two affected players heal up as much as they can, at the same time have an ele drop water, have a necro cleanse both people of their debuffs at once and immediately stack and blast water to heal everyone up. There’s a lot of coordination in that scenario and it will shake up the dps all the time mentality. But you totally get the idea. I see more group synergy in wvw than pve. They coordinate their burst, their healing, their position (it’s not stationary), among other things. For some reason I think wvw players will excel at raids better than meta pvers at least at the start.

People will look more “legendary” in future gem store outfits then the new “legendary” rewards from raids. GW2 is about fashion statement and not stats.

Ronah Lynda.2496:

Lux Dominatoris.3941:

myself.2143:

I almost never see anyone looking to do dungeons or fractals. After a month or two, I wonder if anyone will even care about raids anymore.

Ayyy lmao bad troll attempt, very bad.

The guy is right. If you are a casual you rarely get to do a dungeon or fractal unless it is a daily. So if its hard to find 5 random people to do a dungeon, how easy will it be to find 10 especially if it is a lfg and not a free join

I consider myself casual. When I was playing regularly i did dungeons all the time.

What is your definition of causal anyway? And why do you think you can just have a blanketed term for hundreds of thousands of players?

Zalavaaris.5329:

Jerus.4350:

Zalavaaris.5329:

StrangerDanger.3496:

I really don’t see how 10 man (raids? seems a bit small for a"raid") dungeon is going to scratch anyones itch for Raids.

Raids typically are the pinnacle of coordinated group efforts where everyone has an exact role to play, and needs to play that role near perfect for the instance to go well.

This game specializes in everyone running around DPS’ing stuff. There are no set healers or agro tanks really…those some can occasionally fill that roll slightly, for a short time.

Really I get why they are doing this, just I don’t think its going to be executed in a manner that will satisfy anyone who takes a break from this game to raid in another game.

They should be piling on content that is coordinated with how this game plays. Make more epic, insane, difficult, world events, designed for masses of people to complete…make some of those even more coordinated ect.

You cant have a proper raid when you lack the trinity. Skyforge did this (little know game that came out recently) and lacks a trinity system (less so than this game) and it was just coordinated DPS targeting…as you cant really do much more than that.

UNLESS…they have special items in the raid that actually allow someone to become a tank and healer (like a healing staff on the ground and a tank shield, that bestow unique skills for whoever equips them) which would be cheesy imo

This is exactly what I’m worried about. This game has proven to be a dps only free for all where the only coordination involves stacking for buffs and stunning the mobs or timing reflects/stealth timing. When I think raiding I think of a mechanic that introduces a debuff that when cleansed takes 50% health from you but if let to expire will one shot you. It’s those kind of mechanics that if not dealt with via coordination and assigned debuff removal that will transcend what gw2 pvers think about when they think pve. That’s just one example of a true raid mechanic and there needs to be multiple of those per fight (some more harsh than others) to make this a real raiding experience.

No reason we can’t get those types of things. But as Colin said I think they want to focus less on UI watching and more on the on screen stuff. So you get an Aura (with a debuff icon just in case) that if not treated will down you on the spot (or kill?) to cleanse you need to go into an area with a caustic fog that damages you while in, make it a decent amount of damage(probably % based honestly) such that your trip in will leave you having to expend your personal heal and still come out low health, this promotes team healing, either through coordination with Ele/Engi’s standing nearby to rotate water fields for people to blast as they come out or maybe just a healing focused guardian or revenent.

The system is much broader and better than what we’ve seen with our current set of content.

Imagine this. Same debuff I suggested. In this scenario someone needs to cleanse the condition. Everyone has their own condition removal but personal skill comes into play when deciding when to cleanse it. If you are bad and cleanse your own condition when you’re at 30% health because you panic…. Guess what… you’re dead. The best way to do this (and in my dreams 2 people get the debuff at the same time) would to be to make sure the two affected players heal up as much as they can, at the same time have an ele drop water, have a necro cleanse both people of their debuffs at once and immediately stack and blast water to heal everyone up. There’s a lot of coordination in that scenario and it will shake up the dps all the time mentality. But you totally get the idea. I see more group synergy in wvw than pve. They coordinate their burst, their healing, their position (it’s not stationary), among other things. For some reason I think wvw players will excel at raids better than meta pvers at least at the start.

Only problem I see with that is how many things have innate cleansing mechanics. Especially healing effects. I mean it sounds fun, but I just worry that would require certain professions not just certain roles as certain professions.

I have my money on one of the European dungeon speed run guilds, like SC, rT, or vC or one of those to get the first win.

All great questions. Some of this stuff has been broken so long I forgot that it wasn’t supposed to be that way. I would hope they are not only applying the lessons of these mistakes that are still in the game to the new content but are planning on doing a pass to fix these long lingering issues. Actually, the content that has been easy to do because of bugs probably would just stop being done at all because people have been so used to getting through the broken versions of it they wouldn’t want to have to spend the intended amount of time it would actually take to do.

Kevan.8912:

There is no mention to GEAR.
In FOTM, AR is required in order to go up with fractal difficulty.
What about raids?
New tiers of gear?
Need of legendaries/ascended for AR or stats boost?

Nah. Just zerks.

Sarie.1630:

Kevan.8912:

But in most (or all, maybe) MMO’s, a certain good gear is required for endgame content.

If you choose to believe certain people that’s true of GW2 dungeons right now. Most groups gearcheck these days to make sure your gear is ascended with the right stats and the right runes & sigils.

Raids is going to add a Mastery check on top of this.

I pug 3-4 paths of Arah and sometimes Fractal30-50 just about every day. I’ve literally never seen a group expecting Ascended, even fractals if I can show I have the necessary AR (which I do through trinkets/weapons) they’re all good.

Now, expecting zerk or other glass stat sets, yes that often happens, but far from ‘Most’ in my experience at least not gear checking.

Too little, too late, for you?

Good for you. Leave the game if it’s not worth playing for you. If you still like playing it, then quit it with the hyperbole.

So, content that pretty much all other MMOs are slowly but surely dropping, content that only 5% of the playerbase does….

How does one justify spending ANY money on that.

Seera.5916:

You are part of the problem. They notice that you don’t have the right gear. And since they’re in the middle of the dungeon when they discover you lied to them about what you were wearing they decide it’s more hassle than it’s worth to kick you and get someone new.

You are the reason players that would not mind one non-meta in their group if they don’t lie about it when they accidentally join their group decide to just stop PUG’ing. Because they are tired of being lied to by players too inconsiderate to tell the truth.

You’re honestly worse than the jerk elites that join PHIW groups and try to take over. At least they’re honest in their intent. You’re not. To me, there’s nothing worse than a liar. And you can’t honestly tell me you aren’t lying. Because you know exactly what they mean by ping your gear and food. They mean the gear that you are wearing and the food you plan on actually using.

While I disagree with lying, I believe the point he’s trying to make is that zerk meta isn’t a requirement to speedrun. So much so that he can join a speedrun group with non-meta gear, ping meta gear so they believe he’s meta, and then they complete the content quickly without anyone even noticing. I mean, if they were speedrunning and finished the dungeon in a fast enough time not to notice he wasn’t in zerk gear, then why even have the requirement?

Speedrunners are out for speed clearing. The only reason gear even comes into play is the idea that only zerk can speed clear. Which is false. If you are going for record clears, then sure I could see the zerk hard requirement. At that point you are literally min/maxing for fastest clear possible. But if your idea of a speed clear, depending on the path of course, is 7-12min per path, then you really don’t need an entire team of zerk to accomplish this. Which I think was the point he was trying to prove.

That said, it is kind of lame to lie about your gear simply out of principle. I mean if you have zerk gear and food on you, why the heck not just equip it for that run?

Freywstrider.5780:

I have not played Runescape so I can not answer if it is a WOW clone. My wife and I were Beta testers for GW2 and it was the lack of the trinity and raiding that made it different and enjoyable. If you want to have raiding then fine but it needs to be fair for those that do not raid. No epic gear should be dropped that cannot be gotten another way. If you want different gear drops for raids then make it gear that you can only use in raids.

It would seem that Arena net is forgetting what they set out to do. To make a different type of MMO, at least, that was what they said during the beta and release. Now, they seem to be moving towards being like other MMO’s and not different.

Thank you for stating this. I came to GW2 to escape elitists and show-offs, although there were a few raiders without that attitude. I used to be one myself, but after I only had time to participate as a casual gamer, I was able to truly see it from the other point of view. The majority of the blame is not the players, but rather the developers that make it possible for certain personality types to rub the noses of casual gamers in it. The message imparted becomes, “I am better than you, you will never attain this, and I will always look better than you.” It does not make one feel good, and it’s not fun at all to be the target audience of it.

Let me be clear, I am not voicing my displeasure at the possibility of Raids in GW2. This message is my warning to ArenaNet to be very careful with how it is implemented. So much brilliant work was done to attract one of the most helpful and good-natured groups of players I have ever seen in my MMO experience since the 1990’s. This plan places all that in jeopardy, which is my cause for concern. If this game turns sour, I won’t post that I’ll be leaving. I’ll just silently take all my marbles, move somewhere else, and patiently wait for the next great MMO, just like I did when I found GW2.

My message to those wanting EQ2/WoW style raids is please try to be understanding to the Casuals. There is another point of view here, and it is very frightening to those that have invested their precious time in this game. Many of those people, like Freywstrider, are only asking for something simple and easy as stated in his last two sentences.

My message to the casual gamers is to have a little faith in ArenaNet. There were similar concerns raised about PvP before, but I believe they handled that fairly. Let us see if they can impress us in this endeavor as well.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/cdi/CDI-Guilds-Raiding

What other MMOs are doing doesn’t really matter, GW2 players (not all, but enough for it to be worth it) wanted raiding or something similar. It also helps them market to players from other MMOs who like raiding.

I don’t really see what needs justifying here…

And unlike other MMO’s, you’re not being forced to grind there in order to progress.

Jerus.4350:

Zalavaaris.5329:

Jerus.4350:

Zalavaaris.5329:

StrangerDanger.3496:

I really don’t see how 10 man (raids? seems a bit small for a"raid") dungeon is going to scratch anyones itch for Raids.

Raids typically are the pinnacle of coordinated group efforts where everyone has an exact role to play, and needs to play that role near perfect for the instance to go well.

This game specializes in everyone running around DPS’ing stuff. There are no set healers or agro tanks really…those some can occasionally fill that roll slightly, for a short time.

Really I get why they are doing this, just I don’t think its going to be executed in a manner that will satisfy anyone who takes a break from this game to raid in another game.

They should be piling on content that is coordinated with how this game plays. Make more epic, insane, difficult, world events, designed for masses of people to complete…make some of those even more coordinated ect.

You cant have a proper raid when you lack the trinity. Skyforge did this (little know game that came out recently) and lacks a trinity system (less so than this game) and it was just coordinated DPS targeting…as you cant really do much more than that.

UNLESS…they have special items in the raid that actually allow someone to become a tank and healer (like a healing staff on the ground and a tank shield, that bestow unique skills for whoever equips them) which would be cheesy imo

This is exactly what I’m worried about. This game has proven to be a dps only free for all where the only coordination involves stacking for buffs and stunning the mobs or timing reflects/stealth timing. When I think raiding I think of a mechanic that introduces a debuff that when cleansed takes 50% health from you but if let to expire will one shot you. It’s those kind of mechanics that if not dealt with via coordination and assigned debuff removal that will transcend what gw2 pvers think about when they think pve. That’s just one example of a true raid mechanic and there needs to be multiple of those per fight (some more harsh than others) to make this a real raiding experience.

No reason we can’t get those types of things. But as Colin said I think they want to focus less on UI watching and more on the on screen stuff. So you get an Aura (with a debuff icon just in case) that if not treated will down you on the spot (or kill?) to cleanse you need to go into an area with a caustic fog that damages you while in, make it a decent amount of damage(probably % based honestly) such that your trip in will leave you having to expend your personal heal and still come out low health, this promotes team healing, either through coordination with Ele/Engi’s standing nearby to rotate water fields for people to blast as they come out or maybe just a healing focused guardian or revenent.

The system is much broader and better than what we’ve seen with our current set of content.

Imagine this. Same debuff I suggested. In this scenario someone needs to cleanse the condition. Everyone has their own condition removal but personal skill comes into play when deciding when to cleanse it. If you are bad and cleanse your own condition when you’re at 30% health because you panic…. Guess what… you’re dead. The best way to do this (and in my dreams 2 people get the debuff at the same time) would to be to make sure the two affected players heal up as much as they can, at the same time have an ele drop water, have a necro cleanse both people of their debuffs at once and immediately stack and blast water to heal everyone up. There’s a lot of coordination in that scenario and it will shake up the dps all the time mentality. But you totally get the idea. I see more group synergy in wvw than pve. They coordinate their burst, their healing, their position (it’s not stationary), among other things. For some reason I think wvw players will excel at raids better than meta pvers at least at the start.

Only problem I see with that is how many things have innate cleansing mechanics. Especially healing effects. I mean it sounds fun, but I just worry that would require certain professions not just certain roles as certain professions.

I have my money on one of the European dungeon speed run guilds, like SC, rT, or vC or one of those to get the first win.

You are EXACTLY right. Those innate cleanse mechanics need to be thought about. It will switch up what skills and traits are good for certain boss fights. And the cleanses will still be good but the timing needs to match. That’s where the skill comes into play
Too much of this game is innate like you just said and in order for this raid to feel like a Raid it needs to be taken into consideration.

Kevan.8912:

Healix.5819:

Kevan.8912:

I feel that just “skill, strategy and coordination” is something rarely seen in MMOs.

Basic skill, strategy and coordination is required in all raids. Skill is to not stand in fire, strategy is planning to not stand in fire and coordination is to get everyone to move out of the fire at the same time.

But in most (or all, maybe) MMO’s, a certain good gear is required for endgame content.
And that gears requires hours of farm, grind, craft, etc.

And just to make a refer. to the old-but-still-good argument about manifesto, gear_treadmill and so on…if there is the introduction of any new infusion, it IS a treadmill.
And “mandatory” grind

Aye, I feel they’re a bit disingenuous with the whole “no treadmill” thing. Sure we’re not dropping off our old armor every few weeks but we do have our AR progression system and we’re getting masteries which some already sound like “you must be this tall” barriers to entry. I don’t know, maybe I just misinterpreted the “no treadmill” thing initially but not a big fan of barriers to content that aren’t purely skill based.

Either way I think they’re doing great with not giving new tiers of gear. It’s still FAR better than most other games where if I stop playing for a couple weeks I come back and I’m way behind.

Draknar.5748:

Seera.5916:

You are part of the problem. They notice that you don’t have the right gear. And since they’re in the middle of the dungeon when they discover you lied to them about what you were wearing they decide it’s more hassle than it’s worth to kick you and get someone new.

You are the reason players that would not mind one non-meta in their group if they don’t lie about it when they accidentally join their group decide to just stop PUG’ing. Because they are tired of being lied to by players too inconsiderate to tell the truth.

You’re honestly worse than the jerk elites that join PHIW groups and try to take over. At least they’re honest in their intent. You’re not. To me, there’s nothing worse than a liar. And you can’t honestly tell me you aren’t lying. Because you know exactly what they mean by ping your gear and food. They mean the gear that you are wearing and the food you plan on actually using.

While I disagree with lying, I believe the point he’s trying to make is that zerk meta isn’t a requirement to speedrun. So much so that he can join a speedrun group with non-meta gear, ping meta gear so they believe he’s meta, and then they complete the content quickly without anyone even noticing. I mean, if they were speedrunning and finished the dungeon in a fast enough time not to notice he wasn’t in zerk gear, then why even have the requirement?

Speedrunners are out for speed clearing. The only reason gear even comes into play is the idea that only zerk can speed clear. Which is false. If you are going for record clears, then sure I could see the zerk hard requirement. At that point you are literally min/maxing for fastest clear possible. But if your idea of a speed clear, depending on the path of course, is 7-12min per path, then you really don’t need an entire team of zerk to accomplish this. Which I think was the point he was trying to prove.

That said, it is kind of lame to lie about your gear simply out of principle. I mean if you have zerk gear and food on you, why the heck not just equip it for that run?

I fully agree that the gear one uses doesn’t determine if one can speed clear or not. It’s why the true speed clear groups who intend to PUG don’t always kick players who they see aren’t doing max DPS. Because they know that it’s not the gear that makes the speed clear.

And he doesn’t prove anything to the players that matter: the ones he lies to. Because he lied to them. They think he’s wearing zerk gear.

Prestige armor. The stats are the same as ascended, the functionality is the only advantage (and thats assuming we can swap stats).

It’s like FoW armor in the first game, looks awesome, takes a ton of work, is an accomplishment to get, but not required to enjoy the game. Where as other games require you to progress through raids to get to the next, or be carried, GW2 will let you do raids as long as you want to.

I can already answer your 9.

For content to be created it has to justify its existance.

So either a lot of people play it for short or few for long. Of corse, the best is content that isplayed by lot of people for a long time.

Since raids are played by miniscule part of playerbase, that part of playerbase need to farm it until their eyes pop.

And how do you do that? Miniscule drop rates. It all comes down to math.

Kormeg.2469:

Ronah Lynda.2496:

Lux Dominatoris.3941:

myself.2143:

I almost never see anyone looking to do dungeons or fractals. After a month or two, I wonder if anyone will even care about raids anymore.

Ayyy lmao bad troll attempt, very bad.

The guy is right. If you are a casual you rarely get to do a dungeon or fractal unless it is a daily. So if its hard to find 5 random people to do a dungeon, how easy will it be to find 10 especially if it is a lfg and not a free join

I consider myself casual. When I was playing regularly i did dungeons all the time.

What is your definition of causal anyway? And why do you think you can just have a blanketed term for hundreds of thousands of players?

Dude just likes to spit in other peoples lemonade is all and there are indeed people like that in this world and in Gw2. Raid system benefits those people who like to raid and does absolutely nothing to those who dislike raiding as it’s not needed for anything since this game has multiple methods to unlock items as is and that won’t change for raids.

So because people simply don’t like raids full well knowing they can simply just ignore them they go about spitting in everyone elses glass of lemonade.

Tea.7025:

My problem is that high quality, challenging, instanced content (dungeons, raids) is not something an intern can whip up in their free time. A lot of money, energy and time have to be invested. However, that ends up being a waste if said content is only played by 10% of the playerbase which is the usual participation rate in other games.

WoW suffered the same issue (Original Naxxramas was awesome. Or at least that’s what we heard. A whooping 0,1% percent got to enjoy it.) and instead of making high quality content for the non-instancers, they simply pushed everyone into raiding and dungoneering because that was far more cost-effective. The current expansion’s end game gives you a choice of running the same raids on 4 difficulties and the same dungeons on 3 different difficulties.

That’s what I fear that raids will bring here as well. This game has always mainly targeted casual MMO gamers. So Arenanet will either design content for a small part of their playerbase and cross their fingers that raiders like using the gem store (They usually don’t since there is no “prestige” in credit card swiping.) as to make entertaining them profitable or they try to peddle their raids in any way they can to draw in the crowd and justify the expenses.

I do hope that won’t be so.

Not… NECESSARILY.

A lot of the resource investment that went into WoW raids was through unique skills and mechanics for their bosses that were promptly used nowhere else. They’ve since started “reusing” a lot of that stuff for later content. An example is the skill Defile, which at one time was a skill used solely by one boss in one raid instance (The Lich King in Icecrown Citadel), and was later co-opted and utilized as an acquirable skill for Death Knights in the Warlords of Draenor expansion. Hell, Naxxramas in near its entirety was brought back in Wrath of the Lich King with some re-tuning.

It’s POSSIBLE to get a better return on investment for your raid content beyond the number of players that can use it, so that in and of itself CAN be worked around and repurposed. Guild Wars 2 already has adapted that policy, for example, using previous Living Story boss fights in the Fractals of the Mists.

Kaiden Valor.7163:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/cdi/CDI-Guilds-Raiding

What other MMOs are doing doesn’t really matter, GW2 players (not all, but enough for it to be worth it) wanted raiding or something similar. It also helps them market to players from other MMOs who like raiding.

I don’t really see what needs justifying here…

Ooooh, ill just point you to Wildstars “players” that insisted on hardcore raiding.

Guess where Wildstar is now. Learning on other people mistakes is wise. OTOH just repeating other peoples mistakes because….reasons….

Sure, if you want to make less people play, you can just make raids.

I didnt hear more about more zones coming, more story coming, more PvP goodies coming nope.

I just heard that living story will move to raids. Which means SERIOUS money investment for miniscule part of population.

Doam.8305:

Dude just likes to spit in other peoples lemonade is all and there are indeed people like that in this world and in Gw2. Raid system benefits those people who like to raid and does absolutely nothing to those who dislike raiding as it’s not needed for anything since this game has multiple methods to unlock items as is and that won’t change for raids.

So because people simply don’t like raids full well knowing they can simply just ignore them they go about spitting in everyone elses glass of lemonade.

Wildstar all over again. SWTOR all over again. Rift all over again. TSW all over again.

MikaHR.1978:

Kaiden Valor.7163:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/cdi/CDI-Guilds-Raiding

What other MMOs are doing doesn’t really matter, GW2 players (not all, but enough for it to be worth it) wanted raiding or something similar. It also helps them market to players from other MMOs who like raiding.

I don’t really see what needs justifying here…

Ooooh, ill just point you to Wildstars “players” that insisted on hardcore raiding.

Guess where Wildstar is now.

Sure, if you want to make less people play, you can just make raids.

I didnt hear more about more zones coming, more story coming, more PvP goodies coming nope.

I just heard that living story will move to raids. Which means SERIOUS money investment for miniscule part of population.

And who says the raids will be hardcore raids? It’s a little too early to really tell if raids will be something a majority do or if they will fade into the background like dungeons currently do once a majority of players have the rewards from it.

StrangerDanger.3496:

Raids typically are the pinnacle of coordinated group efforts where [tanks and healers have] an exact role to play, and needs to play that role near perfect for the instance to go well.

FTFY

As a raid healer, I’m well aware at how important my and my tank’s jobs were. The DPS, though? Yea no, that was mashing your damage keys as fast as possible on whatever symbol/target you are told to mash your keys at.

You may have to step out of an AoE circle or something every now and then, but nothing harder than anything GW2 currently has to offer.

I have a feeling GW2 raids will be more difficult than a typical raid. I hope so anyway. Maybe two groups of 4 have to simultaneously fight two separate bosses while two other people have to jump through some kind of elaborate puzzle while timed in order to deactivate something. GW2 just offers so much more possibility to display skill.

You know, versus staring at HP bars/cooldowns and then moving when the raid leader says to move.

Ronah Lynda.2496:

Kormeg.2469:

Ronah Lynda.2496:

Lux Dominatoris.3941:

myself.2143:

I almost never see anyone looking to do dungeons or fractals. After a month or two, I wonder if anyone will even care about raids anymore.

Ayyy lmao bad troll attempt, very bad.

The guy is right. If you are a casual you rarely get to do a dungeon or fractal unless it is a daily. So if its hard to find 5 random people to do a dungeon, how easy will it be to find 10 especially if it is a lfg and not a free join

I consider myself casual. When I was playing regularly i did dungeons all the time.

What is your definition of causal anyway? And why do you think you can just have a blanketed term for hundreds of thousands of players?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hNGi1PTkZA

That really didn’t tell me anything more than casuals comprise the largest portion of the playerbase, which funnily hurts your point as then it’s more difficult to try and categorize player interests in that big a group.

I like to play dungeons, I play maybe 6-8 hours a week. Some other dude hates anything harder than open world bosses, he plays 20 hours a week. I consider us both causal.

But apparently I can’t decide that for myself

MikaHR.1978:

So, content that pretty much all other MMOs are slowly but surely dropping, content that only 5% of the playerbase does….

How does one justify spending ANY money on that.

5%? Do you have a source for that number? You may want to justify your claim first.

Zalavaaris.5329:

Jerus.4350:

Zalavaaris.5329:

Jerus.4350:

Zalavaaris.5329:

StrangerDanger.3496:

I really don’t see how 10 man (raids? seems a bit small for a"raid") dungeon is going to scratch anyones itch for Raids.

Raids typically are the pinnacle of coordinated group efforts where everyone has an exact role to play, and needs to play that role near perfect for the instance to go well.

This game specializes in everyone running around DPS’ing stuff. There are no set healers or agro tanks really…those some can occasionally fill that roll slightly, for a short time.

Really I get why they are doing this, just I don’t think its going to be executed in a manner that will satisfy anyone who takes a break from this game to raid in another game.

They should be piling on content that is coordinated with how this game plays. Make more epic, insane, difficult, world events, designed for masses of people to complete…make some of those even more coordinated ect.

You cant have a proper raid when you lack the trinity. Skyforge did this (little know game that came out recently) and lacks a trinity system (less so than this game) and it was just coordinated DPS targeting…as you cant really do much more than that.

UNLESS…they have special items in the raid that actually allow someone to become a tank and healer (like a healing staff on the ground and a tank shield, that bestow unique skills for whoever equips them) which would be cheesy imo

This is exactly what I’m worried about. This game has proven to be a dps only free for all where the only coordination involves stacking for buffs and stunning the mobs or timing reflects/stealth timing. When I think raiding I think of a mechanic that introduces a debuff that when cleansed takes 50% health from you but if let to expire will one shot you. It’s those kind of mechanics that if not dealt with via coordination and assigned debuff removal that will transcend what gw2 pvers think about when they think pve. That’s just one example of a true raid mechanic and there needs to be multiple of those per fight (some more harsh than others) to make this a real raiding experience.

No reason we can’t get those types of things. But as Colin said I think they want to focus less on UI watching and more on the on screen stuff. So you get an Aura (with a debuff icon just in case) that if not treated will down you on the spot (or kill?) to cleanse you need to go into an area with a caustic fog that damages you while in, make it a decent amount of damage(probably % based honestly) such that your trip in will leave you having to expend your personal heal and still come out low health, this promotes team healing, either through coordination with Ele/Engi’s standing nearby to rotate water fields for people to blast as they come out or maybe just a healing focused guardian or revenent.

The system is much broader and better than what we’ve seen with our current set of content.

Imagine this. Same debuff I suggested. In this scenario someone needs to cleanse the condition. Everyone has their own condition removal but personal skill comes into play when deciding when to cleanse it. If you are bad and cleanse your own condition when you’re at 30% health because you panic…. Guess what… you’re dead. The best way to do this (and in my dreams 2 people get the debuff at the same time) would to be to make sure the two affected players heal up as much as they can, at the same time have an ele drop water, have a necro cleanse both people of their debuffs at once and immediately stack and blast water to heal everyone up. There’s a lot of coordination in that scenario and it will shake up the dps all the time mentality. But you totally get the idea. I see more group synergy in wvw than pve. They coordinate their burst, their healing, their position (it’s not stationary), among other things. For some reason I think wvw players will excel at raids better than meta pvers at least at the start.

Only problem I see with that is how many things have innate cleansing mechanics. Especially healing effects. I mean it sounds fun, but I just worry that would require certain professions not just certain roles as certain professions.

I have my money on one of the European dungeon speed run guilds, like SC, rT, or vC or one of those to get the first win.

You are EXACTLY right. Those innate cleanse mechanics need to be thought about. It will switch up what skills and traits are good for certain boss fights. And the cleanses will still be good but the timing needs to match. That’s where the skill comes into play
Too much of this game is innate like you just said and in order for this raid to feel like a Raid it needs to be taken into consideration.

I hear ya, I’m with you, my worry was that your example might leave certain professions incapable of contributing. That’s something ANet stressed and I agree with, allowing different professions to fill the different roles such as to not need an Ele or need a Warrior or whatever. Certainly though having to have the forethought to not use Healing Turret because of the innate cleanse is the type of intricacy a raid should have.

5) I like skipping and stealth. But I agree that it’s not made in the best way possible. They should have part specifically made for skipping that made it hard to skip. They should also make it a difficult choice to make between fight and skipping. When the fight is boring and not rewarding the choice to skip is easy. But when I can go quicker by skipping, but I lose some nice fight and some reward, then the situation is different.

6) It depend what mechanics the devs will include. If the content is hard enough (harder than level 50), we probably gonna see some healer in some group just to make the run smother and easier. For necromancer specifically, if they could include mechanics where the necromancer is actually good, it would help. Enemies that have high crit chance and dodge, so that weakness is important, enemies with boons on a regular basis so that you need to corrupt them, etc. Necromancer have some strong mechanics, they are just near useless in the current PvE content.

7) Depend. That’s mostly because of projectile defense, because outside of that, most profession can do the job that a guardian or a mesmer can do. Maybe not as good, but still. Remember that raid are 10 man, so you have room for more build diversity in your group.

8) Support is a pretty big part of the PvE content right now and just by making stuff harder, it will be an even bigger part of it. As for control it will depend on their break bar system.

Three yeas since launch and all we have to show for it is 3 maps, a world boss or two, fractals, and one of those maps(Southsun) is basically just a place to store a WB. 2 JPs and guild challenge.

We’ve lost a heal(Anti-Toxin Spray), a PvP map, and the world is littered in garbage from temporary content that new players no nothing about..

Lost more people with the destroyed LA since that was the very dark and dreary hub which basically reflected the broken shape of the game.

So yeah to little to late they already had to introduce megaservers and certain WvW maps like my own are practically dead there are so few people on my server. They need to fold the low pop/dead servers into the larger ones. Raids will put a band-aid on the problem no doubt but HoT better be something special to retain all this returning and new players coming back to try it out.

Celtic Lady.3729:

Is raiding going to be required in order to complete the living story in the future?

Unknown, but they did say it’s going to be an important part of it from now on.

I think people who join speedruns and lie about their gear should be banned for abusing the LFG. Nicest community my kitten , this sort of behavior is something expected of children. And encouraging it on the forums should be a suspension. It is encouraging toxic behavior towards others in the community. Lying and ruining other peoples runs because you can’t be bothered to join a group that isn’t speed running. You want the benefit of all the people wearing zerker and running meta builds but you don’t want to put in the effort to do those things yourself so you piggy back off of others who do and then slow them down out of spite and laziness.

Seera.5916:

I fully agree that the gear one uses doesn’t determine if one can speed clear or not. It’s why the true speed clear groups who intend to PUG don’t always kick players who they see aren’t doing max DPS. Because they know that it’s not the gear that makes the speed clear.

And he doesn’t prove anything to the players that matter: the ones he lies to. Because he lied to them. They think he’s wearing zerk gear.

Well, he proves it to himself I guess lol. Maybe after the run he dramatically unveils he’s been wearing Cleric’s gear all along!

Vesuvius.9874:

MikaHR.1978:

So, content that pretty much all other MMOs are slowly but surely dropping, content that only 5% of the playerbase does….

How does one justify spending ANY money on that.

5%? Do you have a source for that number? You may want to justify your claim first.

http://www.engadget.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/

And LOTRO was all about raiding.

They abandoned raids and dont make them AT ALL any more.

Situation isnt different in other games, based on available data.

The do make most noise on forums though.

Seera.5916:

MikaHR.1978:

Kaiden Valor.7163:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/cdi/CDI-Guilds-Raiding

What other MMOs are doing doesn’t really matter, GW2 players (not all, but enough for it to be worth it) wanted raiding or something similar. It also helps them market to players from other MMOs who like raiding.

I don’t really see what needs justifying here…

Ooooh, ill just point you to Wildstars “players” that insisted on hardcore raiding.

Guess where Wildstar is now.

Sure, if you want to make less people play, you can just make raids.

I didnt hear more about more zones coming, more story coming, more PvP goodies coming nope.

I just heard that living story will move to raids. Which means SERIOUS money investment for miniscule part of population.

And who says the raids will be hardcore raids? It’s a little too early to really tell if raids will be something a majority do or if they will fade into the background like dungeons currently do once a majority of players have the rewards from it.

They boasted “challenging PvE content”. You think they didnt mean raids when they said that?

What do you think, that raiders from WoW will mass quit and come play GW2?