Guild Wars 2

Windsagio.1340:

Glint, even with her telepathy stuff, probably didn’t think of individual mortals as very important. What she did doesn’t look great as you present it, but we have other information that sets her as selfless and long-seeing. All available information depicts the Mursaat as explicitly selfish and untrustworthy.

Hell, maybe she should take a lot of the blame. It doesn’t change the fact that the Mursaat specifically killed people who were potential threats under false pretenses to keep another threat to them out of the world. They’re good at setting up win-win scenarios, I admit.

Ekhm, Glint also did the same thing – she caused the death of countless innocent beings to take her vengeance on Mursaat. And she is excused for that because you say “she probably thought the few lives were not important”. She is remember as a hero, and mursaat as villains only because she was on our side. and SHE led humans to help the Undead Lich release titans, and in effect bring Nightfall closer to fruition.

The very end of the world Mursaat were trying to prevent, Glint was actively working to bring to life. So the ones trying to stop the fallen god from destroying the planet are bad guys only because they killed a couple of peasants who would die anyway if they didn’t do it. While the one trying to stop the “bad guys” was in fact working to end the whole creation at hands of Abaddon.

In other words again:

- guys killing a few to save themselves and EVERY OTHER LIVING BEING ON THE PLANET are villains

- guys working to help a Lich who works for a god who wants to destroy EVERYTHING are good guys because… they are too stupid to realize they are are being manipulated by a said lich and a dragon.

Morality at it’s finest.

FrizzFreston.5290:

Slowpokeking.8720:

Also remember, Glint was behind the prophecy, without it the Mursaat and the Lich wouldn’t have done such thing.

Call me a traditionalist, but prophesizing something does not equal setting something in motion. The Lich was already after the Scepter of Orr, who’s to say an army of undead wouldn’t have killed all the mursaat if he had gotten it at some point?

The Lich is to say. He got the Scepter on Sanctum Cay. If that was all he needed to defeat the mursaat and reach the Door, then why did he waste any more time on the heroes? He believed he needed the heroes to become Ascended to take out the mursaat garrisons that were blocking him from the Door. Why? Because the Prophecy said that was the path to his goal. The Lich knew the Prophecy and was doing everything in his power to make sure it was followed to the letter, which made it self-fulfilling.

While drax is, of course, correct that it is not entirely clear whether the soul batteries were lock or latch, I think there is quite a bit more weight to the lock theory. The existence of the Door predates the Flameseeker Prophecies. Before the Flameseeker Prophecies identified the Door as a racial danger, the mursaat had no reason to run a pogrom against the Chosen. Yet the Door was clearly closed before anyone had their soul stuffed into a battery because there wasn’t a flood of titans wandering around Tyria.

Nor have we been given any indication that there were any mass abductions of Chosen prior to the sacrifices begun by the White Mantle. If the batteries were a latch, what kept the Door latched during all the centuries before the White Mantle existed?

I think the lock theory requires fewer assumptions, satisfying Occam’s Razor. It seems likely to me that the mursaat did nothing until the signs of the Prophecy showed that the end was near. Before that the Chosen were no threat and the Door required no additional safeguards.

BrettM.9062:

FrizzFreston.5290:

Slowpokeking.8720:

Also remember, Glint was behind the prophecy, without it the Mursaat and the Lich wouldn’t have done such thing.

Call me a traditionalist, but prophesizing something does not equal setting something in motion. The Lich was already after the Scepter of Orr, who’s to say an army of undead wouldn’t have killed all the mursaat if he had gotten it at some point?

The Lich is to say. He got the Scepter on Sanctum Cay. If that was all he needed to defeat the mursaat and reach the Door, then why did he waste any more time on the heroes? He believed he needed the heroes to become Ascended to take out the mursaat garrisons that were blocking him from the Door. Why? Because the Prophecy said that was the path to his goal. The Lich knew the Prophecy and was doing everything in his power to make sure it was followed to the letter, which made it self-fulfilling.

That still doesn’t mean the prophecy is the cause. A prophecy generally predict what is going to happen, which means that at some point it was going to happen any way.

And if it was the cause that means Glint had forseen that it was necessary for us to do so in order to stop something bigger than the Mursaat, like Abaddon for example.

Either way, it’s very likely the new allies are the Mursaat. It’s been roughly 7-8 years when we were told they would be in GW2:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User_talk:Linsey_Murdock/Lore1#Asura_and_Mursaat

With all of the different in game hints and evidence of the White Mantle and Mursaat, I do think that it is a good possibility that what we saw is the Murssat.

That being said, I have to agree with what draxynnic has been saying. We don’t truly know what this race is. That city did indeed look like what we have seen in Vabbi. We have several other races like the djinn that could be possibilities.

On a purely cosmetic front, I think that they do look like Mursaat. We have seen lore manipulated and somewhat reformed in GW2, so I am not dismissing that they could indeed be Mursaat.

I also agree that what the Mursaat did was evil and not just self preservation. By the same token, I see evil and good in all the races we get to play in GW2. I also see that the Char are now allies with humans. Tentative, maybe, but allies all the same. I would find it plausible that there would be good Mursaat too.

I am sure we will find out soon exactly who they are through announcements.

Lord Trejgon.2809:

but since 250 no one killed people to power up souls batteries and that compared with fact that after khilbron there is nothing mentioning about anyone even trying to open that doors I think we can quite safely asssume that the doors of komalie di not required those souls batteries to keep being shut – mursaat could have keep their stronghold ontop of those doors to prevent any servant of abaddon to enter the are to oen the door but instead they still tried to trick with soul batteries… which was their doom.

Also I think it was quite literaly stated later in nightfall that lich was servant of abaddon… well abaddon wanted those doors opened no matter if some dragon servant made any prophecy about it or not.

It did, the door was open because you released the souls. Maybe due to Abaddon’s moves that weakened the seal.

The Lich wanted to rule Tyria, without the Prophecy he wouldn’t have known that he needed the scepter of Orr to control the Titans and send them to different places.

FrizzFreston.5290:

Call me a traditionalist, but prophesizing something does not equal setting something in motion. The Lich was already after the Scepter of Orr, who’s to say an army of undead wouldn’t have killed all the mursaat if he had gotten it at some point?

I find it incredibly short-sighted for such a powerful race to simply kill everyone who could be a potential threat because of some silly prophecy. Protecting the door of Komalie, sure understandable. Not explaining anything? That was pretty dumb.

The Lich was after the Scepter of Orr because of the Prophecy, it was given out long ago. WIthout it the Mursaat wouldn’t even bother to guard the door.

draxynnic.3719:

Slowpokeking.8720:

So not to intervene and let them all die, is better than save some and kill the rest? The Optimus Mursaat also stated this right after they showed up and Saul answered “Yes my lord.”

The question you have to answer is: Once the mursaat had chosen to intervene, why did ANY of them have to die?

The given explanation is that “they were not worthy of seeing us” – however, I would regard a being that would kill an ally simply for the “crime” of beholding them as Evil, unless they have a very good reason for wanting to maintain secrecy… and I don’t see that being the case here. The mursaat were quite happy to take the credit afterwards, so it’s not that they were trying to hide their involvement.

If you talk to the squad members beforehand, too, you’ll get the sense that it’s the ones that got killed at the end that genuinely care about Kryta. Saul probably has a much better understanding of the personality of his followers – part of his shock was probably not just that the mursaat decided that some of them were unworthy, but that the ones they deemed as unworthy were actually the most virtuous – and thus, their criteria for worthiness was not what Saul had believed it to be.

So it’s better to let them all die?

I won’t say it’s the right thing to do, but compare to Charr in GW that was nothing.

Wait, weren’t they unseen ones? How come all of them were able to see them?

zwierz.9012:

Windsagio.1340:

Glint, even with her telepathy stuff, probably didn’t think of individual mortals as very important. What she did doesn’t look great as you present it, but we have other information that sets her as selfless and long-seeing. All available information depicts the Mursaat as explicitly selfish and untrustworthy.

Hell, maybe she should take a lot of the blame. It doesn’t change the fact that the Mursaat specifically killed people who were potential threats under false pretenses to keep another threat to them out of the world. They’re good at setting up win-win scenarios, I admit.

Ekhm, Glint also did the same thing – she caused the death of countless innocent beings to take her vengeance on Mursaat. And she is excused for that because you say “she probably thought the few lives were not important”. She is remember as a hero, and mursaat as villains only because she was on our side. and SHE led humans to help the Undead Lich release titans, and in effect bring Nightfall closer to fruition.

The very end of the world Mursaat were trying to prevent, Glint was actively working to bring to life. So the ones trying to stop the fallen god from destroying the planet are bad guys only because they killed a couple of peasants who would die anyway if they didn’t do it. While the one trying to stop the “bad guys” was in fact working to end the whole creation at hands of Abaddon.

In other words again:

- guys killing a few to save themselves and EVERY OTHER LIVING BEING ON THE PLANET are villains

- guys working to help a Lich who works for a god who wants to destroy EVERYTHING are good guys because… they are too stupid to realize they are are being manipulated by a said lich and a dragon.

Morality at it’s finest.

Yeah, Glint manipulated everyone to do it.

Well, really guys, the gift of prophecy is usually traditionally shown as an unwilling gift. From Cassandra to Jonah to the Pythia, the visions in the story aren’t something they can control, they just come.

Windsagio.1340:

Well, really guys, the gift of prophecy is usually traditionally shown as an unwilling gift. From Cassandra to Jonah to the Pythia, the visions in the story aren’t something they can control, they just come.

No, if Glint tell others about the truth it’s not going to happen the way it did. Glint gave it out to manipulate others to do her work.

Go read some Greek Tragedies, there’s a long tradition that trying to avoid a prophecy only makes it more true. The prophecies story has a lot of that, but it does apply to the prophet as well.

Prophecies aren’t something you make or don’t make happen, they’re something that’s going to happen

This is not Greek myth, we don’t have the three Moirai to settle everyone’s fate. Glint was simply use this prophecy to achieve her goal.

Slowpokeking.8720:

The Lich was after the Scepter of Orr because of the Prophecy, it was given out long ago. WIthout it the Mursaat wouldn’t even bother to guard the door.

It’s a prophecy for a reason, though. Saying that the prophecy caused it is simplifying the complex business of prophecies.

You’re basically saying that because of the prophecy the Mursaat killed themselves by trying to go against the prophecies which is exactly what the prophecies said would happen, which means they set in motion their own demise if only they listened to the prophecies.

Simply said, those mursaat are pretty stupid then.

FrizzFreston.5290:

Slowpokeking.8720:

The Lich was after the Scepter of Orr because of the Prophecy, it was given out long ago. WIthout it the Mursaat wouldn’t even bother to guard the door.

It’s a prophecy for a reason, though. Saying that the prophecy caused it is simplifying the complex business of prophecies.

You’re basically saying that because of the prophecy the Mursaat killed themselves by trying to go against the prophecies which is exactly what the prophecies said would happen, which means they set in motion their own demise if only they listened to the prophecies.

Simply said, those mursaat are pretty stupid then.

Because they didn’t know the details, they were deceived like us, and at the same time Glint was using us to fulfill it.

Glint didn’t just give out the prophecy and leave, she was keep manipulating others to do what she wanted them to. She “guided” us to the path of the island, the Mursaat might experienced such thing as well.

The whole prophecy was Glint’s plan, she was manipulating the others to achieve her goal.

Slowpokeking.8720:

This is not Greek myth, we don’t have the three Moirai to settle everyone’s fate. Glint was simply use this prophecy to achieve her goal.

You can’t just reinterpret a word because it fits your narrative;

A prophecy, if it’s an actual prophecy is a vision of things that are fated to happen. Making up some crap and putting out a fake prophecy to meet your own goals is something that could happen, sure, but I’ve never seen that as a legit representation of what Glint did.

It’s a common trope to have a prophecy that realistically could not have come to pass if not for the actions people took because the prophecy existed. Usually, through people trying to prevent the prophecy and ironically bringing about the conditions that allow it to come to pass.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

It is clear that your knowledge of the lore only extends to what is delivered through game content, and not what is written in texts enriching the lore.

Pfffthahahahah!!! Newbie.

The text you are quoting describes events that occurred later.

…and the entire mission which you are going back to as a reference to your misinformation, as i said earlier is a simple gloss-over of factual lore.

Nope. The mission is what actually happened. The description in the Prophecies Manuscripts is what the surviving Mantle leaders – Dorian, Thommis and Hablion – claimed happened in order to hide that it was actually the Mursaat who made Saul disappear and killed most of their unit. The truth is that Saul was not killed in the charr retreat – Saul disappeared after the action that caused the retreat, and the story in the Prophecies Manuscript was likely cooked up between Dorian, Thommis and Hablion after they had verified that the remaining charr were indeed in retreat.

Slowpokeking.8720:

So it’s better to let them all die?

I won’t say it’s the right thing to do, but compare to Charr in GW that was nothing.

Wait, weren’t they unseen ones? How come all of them were able to see them?

With the battle over, there was no reason that any of them had to die. A good or even neutral person does not institute a policy of killing anyone who beholds them for the crime of not meeting some arbitrary standard of “worthiness”. Some beings, like the gods, are so powerful that this happens without their volition and sometimes even against their will, but that isn’t the case with the mursaat – they had to take conscious action to murder half of Saul’s squad.

Regarding the Unseen nature of the Unseen – the impression that I’ve always had is that the mursaat can observe from their invisible state, but have to appear to act on our plane. They can’t take offensive actions while still out of phase. (Incidentally, this could be an explanation for their altered appearance – they appear all glowy because that’s how they appear when they’re out of phase, but choose to allow themselves to be seen regardless.)

I was actually thinking about something along that last line, none of our characters are (or even can be) ascended. We have no idea how the Mursaat project themselves, or how their transition works.

Windsagio.1340:

You can’t just reinterpret a word because it fits your narrative;

A prophecy, if it’s an actual prophecy is a vision of things that are fated to happen. Making up some crap and putting out a fake prophecy to meet your own goals is something that could happen, sure, but I’ve never seen that as a legit representation of what Glint did.

Glint didn’t just leave there so everything is going to happen on its own. She was keep intervening and manipulating us to make it happen, why does she bother to do it if it’s going to happen any way?

If she never gave any prophecy, tell me, why would the Mursaat go to defend the seal and if she had told us the truth of the Lich, how could it still happen?

draxynnic.3719:

It’s a common trope to have a prophecy that realistically could not have come to pass if not for the actions people took because the prophecy existed. Usually, through people trying to prevent the prophecy and ironically bringing about the conditions that allow it to come to pass.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

It is clear that your knowledge of the lore only extends to what is delivered through game content, and not what is written in texts enriching the lore.

Pfffthahahahah!!! Newbie.

The text you are quoting describes events that occurred later.

…and the entire mission which you are going back to as a reference to your misinformation, as i said earlier is a simple gloss-over of factual lore.

Nope. The mission is what actually happened. The description in the Prophecies Manuscripts is what the surviving Mantle leaders – Dorian, Thommis and Hablion – claimed happened in order to hide that it was actually the Mursaat who made Saul disappear and killed most of their unit. The truth is that Saul was not killed in the charr retreat – Saul disappeared after the action that caused the retreat, and the story in the Prophecies Manuscript was likely cooked up between Dorian, Thommis and Hablion after they had verified that the remaining charr were indeed in retreat.

lol nope.
If what you say is true….
Then who assassinated the charr leaders?

draxynnic.3719:

With the battle over, there was no reason that any of them had to die. A good or even neutral person does not institute a policy of killing anyone who beholds them for the crime of not meeting some arbitrary standard of “worthiness”. Some beings, like the gods, are so powerful that this happens without their volition and sometimes even against their will, but that isn’t the case with the mursaat – they had to take conscious action to murder half of Saul’s squad.

Regarding the Unseen nature of the Unseen – the impression that I’ve always had is that the mursaat can observe from their invisible state, but have to appear to act on our plane. They can’t take offensive actions while still out of phase. (Incidentally, this could be an explanation for their altered appearance – they appear all glowy because that’s how they appear when they’re out of phase, but choose to allow themselves to be seen regardless.)

That was part of the deal. I won’t call it nice, they probably tried to hide themselves from most of the humans but they made it very clear in the beginning before they helped, and Saul answered “Yes my lords.” Still, this deal saved Kryta and caused some death, who would have been dead anyway if the Mursaat weren’t called.

The charr leaders were in the mission.

Phase 1: Defend the village.

Phase 2: Sneak past the charr warcamps to the camp the leaders were meeting in.

Phase 3: Assassinate the leaders.

Phase 4: Call upon the Mursaat and survive the horde of enraged charr looking to get revenge.

Final cutscene: The Mursaat murder half of the squad and take Saul, leaving only Dorian, Hablion, and Thommis.

EDIT @Slowpokeking: Sure, they announced there would be a price beforehand. However, this is not the sort of price that people ask to be paid unless they are evil themselves, and Saul realised that at the end. Just because something is part of a deal does not mean that the deal was not an evil one to begin with.

I suspect Saul also had a different idea as to who was ‘truly worthy’. As stated previously, the ones that the mursaat chose to kill were probably the most virtuous of the group. By killing the ones that they did, the mursaat demonstrated that it was the things that Saul – and good people in general – valued that the mursaat viewed as signifying unworthiness.

Imagine if you’d been in Saul’s situation, and your followers include Stalin, Mother Theresa, Fred Hollows, Sir Galahad, Joan of Arc, Osama bin Laden, and Hermann Goring. You accept the deal, recognising that the fact that it is mentioned means that some of the people you’re with will probably be deemed unworthy, and the knowledge that some of your companions are a little on the unsavory side. Then, at the end… it’s Theresa, Hollows, Galahad, and Joan that get the chop, and Stalin, bin Laden, and Goring that get the apparent stamp of approval.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Windsagio.1340:

You can’t just reinterpret a word because it fits your narrative;

A prophecy, if it’s an actual prophecy is a vision of things that are fated to happen. Making up some crap and putting out a fake prophecy to meet your own goals is something that could happen, sure, but I’ve never seen that as a legit representation of what Glint did.

Glint didn’t just leave there so everything is going to happen on its own. She was keep intervening and manipulating us to make it happen, why does she bother to do it if it’s going to happen any way?

If she never gave any prophecy, tell me, why would the Mursaat go to defend the seal and if she had told us the truth of the Lich, how could it still happen?

Why did Cassandra do what she did, knowing that any words she spoke would be disbelieved?

DarcShriek.5829:

Slowpokeking.8720:

DarcShriek.5829:

It’s never good to lie, deceive and kill innocents. It’s always evil.

Glint didn’t sacrifice innocents. Mursaat did.

Then they should let the Titans run wild and kill everything, leave a door of Realm of Torment open?

Glint didn’t sacrifice innocents directly, but she manipulated others to do so.

If I remember correctly, the door was opened, the titans came, and the world didn’t end. It’s been 250 years, since any chosen were sacrificed and the world is still here. The sacrifices served no purpose.

Also, if the cause was so honorable, why didn’t they just ask for volunteers. Arlington National cemetery is filled with people that sacrificed themselves voluntarily. These people were given no choice, they were lied to and their lives were needlessly stolen from them. The mursaat are beyond evil and can’t be trusted.

Don’t forget the connection between the stones and the Elder Dragons. The bloodstones were used to preserve magic and potentially stave off the same Elder Dragons.

Additionally Jeff Grubb said that the bloodstones’ fate will not be revealed in the initial release of Guild Wars 2, but may “have an influence in future expansions.” So perhaps the bloodstones’ destruction were the cause of the ED’s awakening, AND perhaps the prophecy is STILL in play with the ED being the future cause of the Mursaat’s destruction.

I must say this thread is quite funny, many are willing to call the Mursaat “evil” due to their sacrifice of ~500 humans a year to seal the door of komalie. What would these same people call the American Drone strikes across the world which kill (estimates vary) thousands of innocent civilians every year. Oddly enough, I don’t think the same commentators would label every American “evil” or even President Obama “evil” for that action. In fact, I think it more likely that they would claim some sort of “we have to in order to save american lives” (as dubious as that is) while at the same time ignoring the fact that nearly the ENTIRE species of Mursaat were eradicated by the Titans.

Perhaps that is the point of the Mursaat? To provide a foil which lets americans view themselves as the rest of the world does. . .

I’m pretty sure that banging a real-world political drum is banned on these forums.

For the sake of argument, though, the distinction is that “collateral damage” is, at least in theory, accidental and something that would be avoided if practical, as opposed to deliberate execution-style killings of innocent people.

draxynnic.3719:

EDIT @Slowpokeking: Sure, they announced there would be a price beforehand. However, this is not the sort of price that people ask to be paid unless they are evil themselves, and Saul realised that at the end. Just because something is part of a deal does not mean that the deal was not an evil one to begin with.

I suspect Saul also had a different idea as to who was ‘truly worthy’. As stated previously, the ones that the mursaat chose to kill were probably the most virtuous of the group. By killing the ones that they did, the mursaat demonstrated that it was the things that Saul – and good people in general – valued that the mursaat viewed as signifying unworthiness.

Imagine if you’d been in Saul’s situation, and your followers include Stalin, Mother Theresa, Fred Hollows, Sir Galahad, Joan of Arc, Osama bin Laden, and Hermann Goring. You accept the deal, recognising that the fact that it is mentioned means that some of the people you’re with will probably be deemed unworthy, and the knowledge that some of your companions are a little on the unsavory side. Then, at the end… it’s Theresa, Hollows, Galahad, and Joan that get the chop, and Stalin, bin Laden, and Goring that get the apparent stamp of approval.

It’s for them to decide, not Saul, if you speak to the monk Mursaat his/her aline is something like “don’t bother, we have our plan.”

Remember they didn’t show up until Saul had asked for their help, Saul even said yes after they told him about the deal. They were all going to die if the Mursaat hadn’t helped. I won’t say it’s that bad.

I also think there weren’t that much difference between those followers at that time, they were all brave enough to risk their lives and stand out for their nation and people.

Crudelis.5420:

I must say this thread is quite funny, many are willing to call the Mursaat “evil” due to their sacrifice of ~500 humans a year to seal the door of komalie. What would these same people call the American Drone strikes across the world which kill (estimates vary) thousands of innocent civilians every year. Oddly enough, I don’t think the same commentators would label every American “evil” or even President Obama “evil” for that action. In fact, I think it more likely that they would claim some sort of “we have to in order to save american lives” (as dubious as that is) while at the same time ignoring the fact that nearly the ENTIRE species of Mursaat were eradicated by the Titans.

Perhaps that is the point of the Mursaat? To provide a foil which lets americans view themselves as the rest of the world does. . .

Leaving politics out of it (you trying to torpedo the thread?) what do you think the authorial intent was with the Mursaat?

My guess would be selfish, dark enemies that were meant to be another piece in the ‘layered’ bad guys in Prophecies.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Remember they didn’t show up until Saul had asked for their help, Saul even said yes after they told him about the deal. They were all going to die if the Mursaat hadn’t helped. I won’t say it’s that bad.

Imagine some firefighters rescued a group of people from a burning building. Then, after the fire has been put out and the danger is gone, the firefighters stone half the people they rescued to death because the firefighters are religious fundamentalists and stoning is the clearly prescribed punishment in their religious texts for the cohabitation without marriage of the people in question

I don’t think there’s any doubt as to how most people would view such an act, regardless of how reasonable it would have been for the firefighters to have deemed it too risky to rescue those people in the first place.

The mursaat appeared not out of any virtue, but because it served their purposes to do so: it allowed them to cement their position as the “saviours of Kryta” while allowing them to choose leaders for the Mantle that lacked the moral fiber to object to their plans for Kryta.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Because they didn’t know the details, they were deceived like us, and at the same time Glint was using us to fulfill it.

Glint didn’t just give out the prophecy and leave, she was keep manipulating others to do what she wanted them to. She “guided” us to the path of the island, the Mursaat might experienced such thing as well.

The whole prophecy was Glint’s plan, she was manipulating the others to achieve her goal.

Ah okay, I didn’t know you were speculating and theorizing. It could be an interesting theory that Glint, who was free from Kralkatorrik’s control started to manipulate us in order to achieve that we kill the Lich, killing off the Mursaat and Titans. Which basically meant an end to all the over reactive killing of innocent people. (Without explanation, no less)

The only thing the mursaat did was protecting themselves, at the costs of others. Mursaat never really cared. (Maybe until now)

There’s still part of me hoping it’s just the seers though, or we meet both.

FrizzFreston.5290:

The only thing the mursaat did was protecting themselves, at the costs of others. Mursaat never really cared. (Maybe until now)

This is the part of the idea that excites me though; they probably still don’t care, but Mordy is a pretty immediate and terrifying threat. Also, even though they got Kittened, the pact killed Zhaitan, which is already something the old races couldn’t do, so the Mursaat might be a bit more willing to commit (at least at first).

Treacherous kinda-allies that you dont’ quite trust are interesting

draxynnic.3719:

Imagine some firefighters rescued a group of people from a burning building. Then, after the fire has been put out and the danger is gone, the firefighters stone half the people they rescued to death because the firefighters are religious fundamentalists and stoning is the clearly prescribed punishment in their religious texts for the cohabitation without marriage of the people in question

I don’t think there’s any doubt as to how most people would view such an act, regardless of how reasonable it would have been for the firefighters to have deemed it too risky to rescue those people in the first place.

The mursaat appeared not out of any virtue, but because it served their purposes to do so: it allowed them to cement their position as the “saviours of Kryta” while allowing them to choose leaders for the Mantle that lacked the moral fiber to object to their plans for Kryta.

Correction, Mursaat don’t have duty to save humans, unlike firefighters. They didn’t suddenly stone people to death, they made this very clear right after they showed up and Saul agreed.

The fact is: They didn’t show up before Saul called for their help.

FrizzFreston.5290:

Ah okay, I didn’t know you were speculating and theorizing. It could be an interesting theory that Glint, who was free from Kralkatorrik’s control started to manipulate us in order to achieve that we kill the Lich, killing off the Mursaat and Titans. Which basically meant an end to all the over reactive killing of innocent people. (Without explanation, no less)

The only thing the mursaat did was protecting themselves, at the costs of others. Mursaat never really cared. (Maybe until now)

There’s still part of me hoping it’s just the seers though, or we meet both.

It’s not a theory, it’s what happened.

Mursaat did help to save Kryta and kept the seal for a while, their purpose might be save themselves, but their action saved many more than they killed.

draxynnic.3719:

The charr leaders were in the mission.

Phase 1: Defend the village.

Phase 2: Sneak past the charr warcamps to the camp the leaders were meeting in.

Phase 3: Assassinate the leaders.

Phase 4: Call upon the Mursaat and survive the horde of enraged charr looking to get revenge.

Final cutscene: The Mursaat murder half of the squad and take Saul, leaving only Dorian, Hablion, and Thommis.

EDIT @Slowpokeking: Sure, they announced there would be a price beforehand. However, this is not the sort of price that people ask to be paid unless they are evil themselves, and Saul realised that at the end. Just because something is part of a deal does not mean that the deal was not an evil one to begin with.

I suspect Saul also had a different idea as to who was ‘truly worthy’. As stated previously, the ones that the mursaat chose to kill were probably the most virtuous of the group. By killing the ones that they did, the mursaat demonstrated that it was the things that Saul – and good people in general – valued that the mursaat viewed as signifying unworthiness.

Imagine if you’d been in Saul’s situation, and your followers include Stalin, Mother Theresa, Fred Hollows, Sir Galahad, Joan of Arc, Osama bin Laden, and Hermann Goring. You accept the deal, recognising that the fact that it is mentioned means that some of the people you’re with will probably be deemed unworthy, and the knowledge that some of your companions are a little on the unsavory side. Then, at the end… it’s Theresa, Hollows, Galahad, and Joan that get the chop, and Stalin, bin Laden, and Goring that get the apparent stamp of approval.

Well I finally gave up on trying to figure out why you are so adamant about your claims and I watched this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upaZrlbYJkw

…and you are right.

The mursaat do come and take Saul at the end of the Bonus Mission Pack mission.
…and it happens in the kryta/maguuma area… not in the northlands.

…even though it goes directly against what is written elsewhere….

Even if the written lore which I have been citing is the “cover up” it just creates giant plotholes, because it states things like offensive deep in charr territory, traveling back home over the shiverpeaks, etc.

Also in the BMP they take Saul and kill the White Mantle for no apparently obvious reason, except the explanation that it is the “price” for their help… which really doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Why wouldn’t it just say he died while defending his people?
Why would it go into detail about the region traveled (shiverpeaks, etc.)?
Why would the Mursaat just up and kill the White Mantle if they had not angered them in any way? It doesn’t make sense to help people then turn around and destroy them….

Idk this whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth….. not just because you are right and I am wrong about the BMP…. but also because the BMP’s story doesn’t seem to embellish the lore and patch up plot holes (like it was intended to do)…. and I believe it only succeeded in creating more plotholes.

Either way you are right about the BMP and now I don’t even know what story to believe anymore.

Whoah, that’s a relief.

To be honest, I’d pretty much mentally written you off as another troll who was more interested in spouting off whatever taurus excretus seems most likely to provoke an angry response than actually caring about the truth, and then you actually go and check the original sources with an open mind about the whole affair…

So, it appears I’ve misjudged you, for which I apologise.

What’s probably lead to your confusion here is that ArenaNet makes heavy use of the “unreliable narrator” trope. Pretty much everything that’s written down, including the contents of the various of the various game manuals, is something that someone in the game world wrote down, and not necessarily the true story. It’s still part of the world’s lore that someone wrote a book or story with those contents and many people within the game world believed it… but it may not actually be accurate. There are a number of other events described in the Prophecies Manuscripts that have not proven to be entirely accurate (the length of time that the Forgotten have been on Tyria, for instance)

Basically, if you don’t see it ingame, it may not be accurate. We used to add “direct from an ArenaNet representative” to that list, but recent events have shown that even that can be retconned, although it’s still a higher level of evidence than most.

(By that measure, of course, the BMP might also be suspect. I’m pretty sure, though, that the lore behind the BMP is that Durmand is actually using some form of magic allowing the PC to perceive what happened in the past. On the other hand, it may be that he accidentally accessed the fractals, which we know to be imperfect reflections, so that might not be such a good judge either. Still, I don’t see any reason to think that Saul’s assassination of the charr leaders was something the mursaat disapproved of.)

Slowpokeking.8720:

Correction, Mursaat don’t have duty to save humans, unlike firefighters. They didn’t suddenly stone people to death, they made this very clear right after they showed up and Saul agreed.

Now you’re deliberately twisting my analogy, especially since I explicitly entered an excuse for the firefighters not to go in.

Let’s generalise it right down to the basics:

Group A rescues Group B from some danger. Then, well after the danger has passed, Group A murders half of Group B due to some characteristic that Group A decides they don’t like.

In any moral or legal system that I would want to be part of, Group A would still be murderers. There may be some reasons why this might be justified, but “they laid eyes on me and I don’t feel that they deserved that honour” is not even close to being one of them.

An idea as to why the Mursaat have glowing skin now – they mastered the art of phasing out of view/reach of other races, and only the ascendants can see them, unless they allow it, right?

Maybe they simply LET US see them in the trailer, and the glowing skin is their choice of look, or an effect of being partially out of phase?

I See No Tomorrow.7302:

There was 1 mursaat left…as far as the White Mantle, asura, and Krytan humans knew. It was never confirmed that there weren’t more of them hanging out in their main city, not involved in Krytan-charr politics.

Also attached pic is a mursaat symbol

Did we ever see girl Mursaats? Maybe Mursaat are all asexual and lazarus single handed repopulated his species over the last 250 years. Or he just used some magic and magic-ed more Mursaat into existence.

Daigotsu Yajinden.2695:

Mursaat made construct servants, like Jade Constructs. Maybe those Mursaat-like energy bodies are constructs too, unknown till now. That or a big redesign. Eitherway Mursaat type.

Maybe Lazarus reconstructed artificial bodies, and magically put the souls of dead Mursaat in them. So that’s why they look like Mursaat, but also like constructs.

Crise.9401:

Conclusion, trust Mursaat, except that one that swore vengeance on humanity of course. Unless you are Asura of course in which case all is well, let those stupid bookah deal with bookah problems.

Or charr, or Sylvari (although they’ve got their own problems), or Norn, or Hylek, or Quaggan, or centaur. Actually there’s a lot of folks who really have no beef with the Mursaat.

Captain Unusual.9163:

So, it’s all Scarlet’s fault?

What a silly question! Everything is Scarlet’s fault!

Windsagio.1340:

and the last fight made it pretty clear, with the pact wiped we’re going to need the intel and help. Trahearne had 20 years to study Zhaitan, there’s not time for that with Mordy.

Debatable. Elder Dragons never start with a total onslaught, they awaken (do a lot of damage) and then slowly expand their base of power. Mordy was a bit odd, but theoretically after he awoke there could be a number of years before he becomes a threat on the scale of Zhaitan. The rush was to catch him before he awoke.

Windsagio.1340:

Just don’t pretend they’re anything but terribly dark, selfish beings.

Maybe metaphorically, but they seem pretty luminescent to me. And anyway if we discriminated against selfish backstabber we’d have no Asura.

Windsagio.1340:

Well, really guys, the gift of prophecy is usually traditionally shown as an unwilling gift. From Cassandra to Jonah to the Pythia, the visions in the story aren’t something they can control, they just come.

Do we even know if Glint had the power of prophecy? I know that she was telepathic, and she used her telepathy while she was a minion of Kralky to predict and prevent attacks against her master, but could she see the future or could she simple predict and manipulate events to her own choosing?

They really do look awesome with their new design! I cant wait to meet them!!

Since I never played GW1 I’m not sure of this. But after looking for mursaat on the wiki it says that mursaat are human like creatures with tangles on the back? I don’t see the resemblance with the creatures in the trailer though :s

In the end mursaats can be potential allies, though untrustable allies. Yes the mursaats were the villain in Prophecies but the kind of “Dark Vador” villain.

Dark Vador never started as an evil dude. He had visions and prophetised the death of his wife. He tried desperately to save her and by doing so turned evil. See, the problem with prophecies is that you know the ending of the story but you don’t know HOW you’ll get to the ending (the attemps of Anakin to save Padme caused her to die).

Following the same logic, the mursaats tricked the white mantle to commit atrocities because they were trying to save their skins. While their actions are evil, they are understandable. Had glint not written the flameseeker prophecies, the mursaats would have stayed in the jungle and everything would have been butterflies and rainbows. Also kryta would be a charr dominion, but that’s a detail of course

No one is pointing out that the three “Mursaat” in the trailer have different colours?
There’s blue, red and yellow.

Also they only have two energy tendrils coming out of their backs instead of the typical 14 black feathers. The one at the end also looks nothing like a Mursaat in body and attacking stance.

I’m not at all convinced these are Mursaat, in fact they appear to be much more like Djinn.

Evans.6347:

No one is pointing out that the three “Mursaat” in the trailer have different colours?
There’s blue, red and yellow.

Also they only have two energy tendrils coming out of their backs instead of the typical 14 black feathers. The one at the end also looks nothing like a Mursaat in body and attacking stance.

I’m not at all convinced these are Mursaat, in fact they appear to be much more like Djinn.

Djinn have 4 arms. Don’t see 4 arms on them. Unless all of them got 2 arms amputated…

In the story trailer at 0:33 there is the same creature, which looks alot like a mursaat, but then in a shiny form and without those unhandy 14 stick backpiece… maybe they got the option as well in their equipment interface panel to disable their backpiece

In that vid it is clearly visible that is has feet, so that it’s a snake is rubbish

Evans.6347:

No one is pointing out that the three “Mursaat” in the trailer have different colours?
There’s blue, red and yellow.

Also they only have two energy tendrils coming out of their backs instead of the typical 14 black feathers. The one at the end also looks nothing like a Mursaat in body and attacking stance.

I’m not at all convinced these are Mursaat, in fact they appear to be much more like Djinn.

Just because we didn’t see other colored Mursaat, does that mean they do not exist?

There were different Mursaat with different colored auras. They were bosses, but still did not have the same aura as others.

Since we are not sure what those “black feathers” actually were, who is to say that they were not simply cosmetic or were not actually part of their bodies.

The Mursaat were largely shrouded in mystery, even during GW1. 250 years removed we have no idea what has happened to them, if anything. We don’t actually have enough factual information about their society and their physiology to make huge sweeping declarations about them.

Also, many creatures have undergone artistic changes between GW1 and GW2. The krait certainly come to mind.

MrTJpwnz.4710:

Evans.6347:

No one is pointing out that the three “Mursaat” in the trailer have different colours?
There’s blue, red and yellow.

Also they only have two energy tendrils coming out of their backs instead of the typical 14 black feathers. The one at the end also looks nothing like a Mursaat in body and attacking stance.

I’m not at all convinced these are Mursaat, in fact they appear to be much more like Djinn.

In that vid it is clearly visible that is has feet, so that it’s a snake is rubbish

I don’t see any feet, not at 1:00 or at 2:48.
Also, Flame and Diamond Djinn don’t have 4 arms.

But I digress, to me they are as alien to Mursaat as they are to Djinn.

Evans.6347:

MrTJpwnz.4710:

Evans.6347:

No one is pointing out that the three “Mursaat” in the trailer have different colours?
There’s blue, red and yellow.

Also they only have two energy tendrils coming out of their backs instead of the typical 14 black feathers. The one at the end also looks nothing like a Mursaat in body and attacking stance.

I’m not at all convinced these are Mursaat, in fact they appear to be much more like Djinn.

In that vid it is clearly visible that is has feet, so that it’s a snake is rubbish

I don’t see any feet, not at 1:00 or at 2:48.
Also, Flame and Diamond Djinn don’t have 4 arms.

But I digress, to me they are as alien to Mursaat as they are to Djinn.

you watched the wrong video…
https://heartofthorns.guildwars2.com/en#section-game

watch the video on the right side (story trailer) at 0:33. It’s the vid you see after you completed LS season 2.

Windsagio.1340:

FrizzFreston.5290:

The only thing the mursaat did was protecting themselves, at the costs of others. Mursaat never really cared. (Maybe until now)

This is the part of the idea that excites me though; they probably still don’t care, but Mordy is a pretty immediate and terrifying threat. Also, even though they got Kittened, the pact killed Zhaitan, which is already something the old races couldn’t do, so the Mursaat might be a bit more willing to commit (at least at first).

Treacherous kinda-allies that you dont’ quite trust are interesting

Definitely have the same idea there. :p They have no seers they can ask to make bloodstones while hiding this time.

Slowpokeking.8720:

FrizzFreston.5290:

Ah okay, I didn’t know you were speculating and theorizing. It could be an interesting theory that Glint, who was free from Kralkatorrik’s control started to manipulate us in order to achieve that we kill the Lich, killing off the Mursaat and Titans. Which basically meant an end to all the over reactive killing of innocent people. (Without explanation, no less)

The only thing the mursaat did was protecting themselves, at the costs of others. Mursaat never really cared. (Maybe until now)

There’s still part of me hoping it’s just the seers though, or we meet both.

It’s not a theory, it’s what happened.

Mursaat did help to save Kryta and kept the seal for a while, their purpose might be save themselves, but their action saved many more than they killed.

What I said was what happened, yes, what you said is theorizing and speculation. Glint “used us” and deceived us and all that. Really? It was 800+ years earlier when she formulated the prophecy. 200+ years after the Six Gods defeated Abaddon, put the bloodstones in the volcano and then left the world (And probably created the door of Komalie in the first place.)

If the seal was there for the entire time, “needing” Chosen for it to stay on or what not, then that is alot of people. So I really doubt that’s the case, as it would mean that right now that Door would still be open as there’s no one killing any chosen to keep it shut.

So your theory that Glint merely manipulated us 800 years before, which personally is a way too long time ago for it to even call manipulating, but hey.

I think that they are Seers coz of the following article:

http://www.guildmag.com/guildmag-issue-1-qa-with-ree-soesbee/

Ree Soesbee says that Seers still do exist in Tyria!

And who better to go to when u need help fighting an Elder Dragon! I believe they united the races earlier to combat Elder Dragons before the Mursaat betrayed them.

Altair.5842:

I think that they are Seers coz of the following article:

http://www.guildmag.com/guildmag-issue-1-qa-with-ree-soesbee/

Ree Soesbee says that Seers still do exist in Tyria!

And who better to go to when u need help fighting an Elder Dragon! I believe they united the races earlier to combat Elder Dragons before the Mursaat betrayed them.

This doesn’t actually say that Seers are still around. It says some rememnants of that civilization which could mean anything from the Seers themselves or cities that they built. We have equally as much obscure information on the Mursaat. The difference between the two are the amount of references in the actual game, especially in the last year.

Could it be a diversionary tactic? Not likely considering not too many people have picked up on them or know what they mean. For starters Fort Vandal was abandoned and what was left behind were white robes, then there are badges all over the silverwastes that look suspiciously familiar to man who played GW1, and finally the information which can be found in the priory. It’s a lot of stuff put out there to mean nothing. These all point to the White Mantle who very specifically served the Mursaat.

The characters in the game have no idea what any of it means which makes it pointless information to throw in if you’re not going to reintroduce it somehow to the new heroes. Maybe the Seers are also there and involved, but again, what would be the point of hinting at White Mantle if there are not also Mursaat?

draxynnic.3719:

Now you’re deliberately twisting my analogy, especially since I explicitly entered an excuse for the firefighters not to go in.

Let’s generalise it right down to the basics:

Group A rescues Group B from some danger. Then, well after the danger has passed, Group A murders half of Group B due to some characteristic that Group A decides they don’t like.

In any moral or legal system that I would want to be part of, Group A would still be murderers. There may be some reasons why this might be justified, but “they laid eyes on me and I don’t feel that they deserved that honour” is not even close to being one of them.

Pls, do not forget what happened before the rescue

Group B asked Group A for help and said they will decide their fate. Group A showed up and made it clear that only those worthy to see them will live, and Group B’s leader answered with a yes.

Altair.5842:

I think that they are Seers coz of the following article:

http://www.guildmag.com/guildmag-issue-1-qa-with-ree-soesbee/

Ree Soesbee says that Seers still do exist in Tyria!

And who better to go to when u need help fighting an Elder Dragon! I believe they united the races earlier to combat Elder Dragons before the Mursaat betrayed them.

They do redesign, but chopping of arms is a pretty dramatic redesign.