Guild Wars 2

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Windsagio.1340:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Windsagio.1340:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

HawkMeister.4758:

To me no dungeon means the expansion is 5$ less worth than the 40$ that seems to be the end price rumor.
Thus if the expansion costs more than 35 bucks I won´t buy it.
It´s that simple.

And as the expansion is the main reason I came back, this will free up some of my time for another game.

Yeah. Unless the fractals mastery system is any good, I won’t be buying it.

Maybe a year or two down the line when they have a 75% off sale or something.

Which is fine, if a product isn’t for you you shouldn’t buy it.

Gamers say this all the frickin’ time though, we’ll see what happens

Do you think the mastery system will be available to the beta testers? If so, I’ll let you know my decision then.

I’d bet money it is (although subject to a huge amount of tuning, beta and all), I hope you like it, more people is good

The fractal mastery system even? I mean they released information about many of the other masteries but for whatever reason have kept the fractal mastery “obscured by the Mists.”

1 Mastery Point: Follows Advice – Details are obscured by the Mists
2 Mastery Points: Agony Channeler – Details are obscured by the Mists
3 Mastery Points: Mistlock Singularities – Details are obscured by the Mists
5 Mastery Points: Recursive Resourcing – Details are obscured by the Mists
8 Mastery Points: Essential Singularities – Details are obscured by the Mists
10 Mastery Points: Hyperactive Singularities – Details are obscured by the Mists

They have to test them at some point, I’d be surprised if thats a big secret they’re holding (although yeah it’s possible).

It might not be beta 1, but I bet we’ll see them before the official release.

Fractal masteries won’t help much if they won’t rework how rewards are structured.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

In a typical boxed expansion, the majority of the repeatable content is in the form of dungeons/raids. Generally for a $40 expansion you will get 8-10 dungeons with 8-10 additional hard modes, and 2-3 raids. These dungeons are generally what keep people playing the content as they search for new gear and master the encounters…

Is there an equivalent in HoT? What will keep us playing after we finish the story 2-3 weeks in?

I just haven’t seen any info on this, i’m sure it is somewhere, but I can’t find it.

M8 this is (guild wars2) forum. There is no raids or expert dungeons here… Did you misstype something?

They promised us PVP MMO woth some PVE content, but after 3 years, i didnt see any PVP or even PVE content. Just boring grind… There is no raids or expert dungeons.

3 years after launch this game does not even have a pvp (only 1 buggy stupid, boring and unbalanced conquest mode).

GW2 have best graphic, i think best engine also but… worst pvp and pve developer team ever…

WoW and Rift are much better and interesting game, they got endgame content and few diferent pvp modes… We got good graphics, they got pvp&pve endgame + alot of fun…

GW2 developers can write bestseller “How to ruin the best opportunity – 101”.

Guild Wars 2 has incredible fight mechanics, clever skill ideas and amazing players. Those are wonderful basics where they can build a master pvp community and incredible organized group content. But what we’re getting mostly is open world zerg pew pew boring maps. This game could be a jewel, a mmo leader instead its just one of many with some good ideas but terrible execution.

I stopped believing in anything substantial coming for me in this game. I play because I think I am addicted and because I’ve some some great ppl here I can go through content with pleasure. If they are gone I will possibly say goodbye to GW2 because of lack of substance for me.

I hope I am wrong and anet surprises me with HoT. Don’t believe it though.

So if people think that dungeons are just too expensive to develop, that would imply this expansion should be very cheap since it doesn’t have them. I can’t imagine spending more than $20 for this expansion if there are no raids, no dungeons, no new race, and the zones are as small as they seem to be.

Everything about this expansion seems to be about saving money instead of building a better game. I’m afraid that the terrible failure of china’s launch has them scrambling for cash grabs instead of really building up the game.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

So if people think that dungeons are just too expensive to develop, that would imply this expansion should be very cheap since it doesn’t have them. I can’t imagine spending more than $20 for this expansion if there are no raids, no dungeons, no new race, and the zones are as small as they seem to be.

Everything about this expansion seems to be about saving money instead of building a better game. I’m afraid that the terrible failure of china’s launch has them scrambling for cash grabs instead of really building up the game.

Dungeons being expensive doesn’t mean that other things are cheap, I’m kind of depressed that I even had to type that out.

More to the point, GodKittenIt, anet is a company! They want to make a better game while making money, but the one thing they have to do is make money!

The way this is a problem is that “a better game for most of their players” and “a better game for ZudetGambeous (or a better game for Windsagio)” might well be entirely different concepts.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

So if people think that dungeons are just too expensive to develop, that would imply this expansion should be very cheap since it doesn’t have them. I can’t imagine spending more than $20 for this expansion if there are no raids, no dungeons, no new race, and the zones are as small as they seem to be.

Everything about this expansion seems to be about saving money instead of building a better game. I’m afraid that the terrible failure of china’s launch has them scrambling for cash grabs instead of really building up the game.

I doubt what they are saying is “developing dungeons is too expensive.” Development is expensive, period. Time intensive as well. However, a company has to look at the cost of development vs the profit they gain from developing it. Therefore, they are going to be more likely to dump funding on ventures that provide the best return on their investment. If dungeons aren’t included in HoT, perhaps dungeons aren’t a lucrative return for them at this time.

It’s extremely sad that this very simple logic has to be explained.

Wooyadeen.6491:

They promised us PVP MMO woth some PVE content, but after 3 years, i didnt see any PVP or even PVE content. Just boring grind… There is no raids or expert dungeons.

I’d love to see where you read this promise because not only they have never promised anything like this but if there’s one thing that was clear is that GW2 was going to be more focused on PvE right from the start, as opposed to GW1 which was focused on PvP first then changed to PvE when they figured out people played PvE more than PvP.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

So if people think that dungeons are just too expensive to develop, that would imply this expansion should be very cheap since it doesn’t have them. I can’t imagine spending more than $20 for this expansion if there are no raids, no dungeons, no new race, and the zones are as small as they seem to be.

Everything about this expansion seems to be about saving money instead of building a better game. I’m afraid that the terrible failure of china’s launch has them scrambling for cash grabs instead of really building up the game.

Can’t wait to see the complaint of people that didn’t get the expansion “No one to play with because they are all in the new zones, trying out revenants! Anet is to blame!”

Seriously, if you conclude the new expansion should be cheap because it doesn’t contain content you value, you don’t seem to understand how all ‘this’ works.

spoj.9672:

Not been following this thread closely for a while. Id just like to point something out. The dungeon community was actually pretty big at the start of the game. Its obviously shrunk hugely because there has been no major updates or additions. And the type of players that like dungeons and instanced content left for other games. Leaving only a small community of players that stuck around.

Saying the dungeon community is a minority is fine. Saying thats a reason not to develop new instanced content is rather short sighted. Especially as the reason it has become a minority is because of neglect. Putting development resources into that area will bring a lot of players back and bring in a lot of new players that like that type of content.

Im sure Anet knows this. It just hasnt been a priority yet. Hopefully im wrong about that and we will see something in HoT. Personally I consider it a pretty poor business decision not to try and bring in a large group of dedicated and hardcore players. Those players tend to be the ones that invest in a game for longer, spend more money and end up being more loyal. But you have to give them something to hook them in first.

I’m definitely late to the party. Anyway that won’t prevent me from endorsing what is said by spoj.

Daily dungeon runners are one of the 3 pillars of GW2 economy : they generate the gold that enable all the farmers to trade efficiently. Not taking care of them would be a bad decision for Anet.

Um, no … gold from dungeons is in no way necessary for farmers to trade efficiently. Dungeons could have never existed and there would still be a working economy based on currency because you can get gold doing all kinds of activities that aren’t dungeons.

I would argue that not having the flow of gold from dungeons would promote gem purchases. If that speculation holds any water, it’s in Anet’s financial interested to never have had dungeons.

Well at least we know now why gaming companies are being so absurd… people keep demanding that they charge more and more money for less and less content… how absurd.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

So if people think that dungeons are just too expensive to develop, that would imply this expansion should be very cheap since it doesn’t have them. I can’t imagine spending more than $20 for this expansion if there are no raids, no dungeons, no new race, and the zones are as small as they seem to be.

Everything about this expansion seems to be about saving money instead of building a better game. I’m afraid that the terrible failure of china’s launch has them scrambling for cash grabs instead of really building up the game.

I doubt what they are saying is “developing dungeons is too expensive.” Development is expensive, period. Time intensive as well. However, a company has to look at the cost of development vs the profit they gain from developing it. Therefore, they are going to be more likely to dump funding on ventures that provide the best return on their investment. If dungeons aren’t included in HoT, perhaps dungeons aren’t a lucrative return for them at this time.

It’s extremely sad that this very simple logic has to be explained.

This just highlights why ArenaNet has continued to fail at every turn. They think dungeons aren’t worth their time/money because people aren’t running their dungeons. They don’t question why people aren’t running the dungeons, they just look at metrics and see low numbers. If they had stopped and questioned why people weren’t running them, they might have seen that there is a ton of demand for good dungeons, but ArenaNet hasn’t provided a single good dungeon.

The dungeons are awful for a few reasons. The first and foremost being that the reward system is freaking awful. If I run a dungeon I want a chance at good loot, not tokens that I can use 5 runs from now for a single piece of gear. Then we have the fact that dungeon sets have specific stats, what dev thought that would be good? Maybe if all stats are created equal, but since the ArenaNet balance team is incompetent they aren’t. So there are dungeons where the eventual loot you get from grinding have stats that are worthless. The “different” paths in most dungeons aren’t really different paths, it’s the same basic path with a few changes. Take AC, you fight the same first 2 bosses in every path. You then fight lots of gravelings and finally take on a graveling end boss. Of course no one is going to do dungeons when they aren’t rewarding and a boring recycled grind. It’s like the dungeon devs paid no attention to anything that WoW did with dungeons and what made them popular.

So yes, now the development of dungeons isn’t going to be lucrative. ArenaNet insured that by putting out subpar dungeons and not fixing them. They drove off the dungeon running playerbase. They did the same thing with SPvP and WvW, it’s a very hard sell to get players back when you spend 2.5 years actively making them distrust you.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Well at least we know now why gaming companies are being so absurd… people keep demanding that they charge more and more money for less and less content… how absurd.

That would be true for Anet if we knew what the full content of HoT was and the price … fact is that they have been pretty generous with the players by providing lots of free content. I don’t see anyone asking to be charged more for less content BTW. Being sensational isn’t giving you much credit.

Distaste.4801:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

So if people think that dungeons are just too expensive to develop, that would imply this expansion should be very cheap since it doesn’t have them. I can’t imagine spending more than $20 for this expansion if there are no raids, no dungeons, no new race, and the zones are as small as they seem to be.

Everything about this expansion seems to be about saving money instead of building a better game. I’m afraid that the terrible failure of china’s launch has them scrambling for cash grabs instead of really building up the game.

I doubt what they are saying is “developing dungeons is too expensive.” Development is expensive, period. Time intensive as well. However, a company has to look at the cost of development vs the profit they gain from developing it. Therefore, they are going to be more likely to dump funding on ventures that provide the best return on their investment. If dungeons aren’t included in HoT, perhaps dungeons aren’t a lucrative return for them at this time.

It’s extremely sad that this very simple logic has to be explained.

This just highlights why ArenaNet has continued to fail at every turn. They think dungeons aren’t worth their time/money because people aren’t running their dungeons. They don’t question why people aren’t running the dungeons, they just look at metrics and see low numbers. If they had stopped and questioned why people weren’t running them, they might have seen that there is a ton of demand for good dungeons, but ArenaNet hasn’t provided a single good dungeon.

The dungeons are awful for a few reasons. The first and foremost being that the reward system is freaking awful. If I run a dungeon I want a chance at good loot, not tokens that I can use 5 runs from now for a single piece of gear. Then we have the fact that dungeon sets have specific stats, what dev thought that would be good? Maybe if all stats are created equal, but since the ArenaNet balance team is incompetent they aren’t. So there are dungeons where the eventual loot you get from grinding have stats that are worthless. The “different” paths in most dungeons aren’t really different paths, it’s the same basic path with a few changes. Take AC, you fight the same first 2 bosses in every path. You then fight lots of gravelings and finally take on a graveling end boss. Of course no one is going to do dungeons when they aren’t rewarding and a boring recycled grind. It’s like the dungeon devs paid no attention to anything that WoW did with dungeons and what made them popular.

So yes, now the development of dungeons isn’t going to be lucrative. ArenaNet insured that by putting out subpar dungeons and not fixing them. They drove off the dungeon running playerbase. They did the same thing with SPvP and WvW, it’s a very hard sell to get players back when you spend 2.5 years actively making them distrust you.

Yes, the dungeons need some love; however, maybe they weren’t as popular as other content, which is why they discontinued their development of them? They did give us Molten and Aether dungeons and even fractals at a later date, then decided to discontinue dungeons after that. Unfortunately we can only speculate, where as they have actual numbers with which to make such decisions.

The problem is that they added 2 new dungeons and a new dungeon path. These functioned more like traditional MMO dungeons than the rest of the dungeons in GW2. (Save for Fractals which have gotten quite a few updates since launch, and a couple since Fractured)

However, they’ve turned out to be not as popular and/or as profitable as regular dungeons (profitable meaning in terms of how many people play them). Now, the argument can be made that the last dungeon added (namely the Aetherblade path of TA) wasn’t a very good dungeon. If the PvE team can’t design a very good dungeon, then why focus on it? Why waste resources?

Besides, until Eye of the North (and even beyond then), the most challenging group content of GW1 was the Domain of Anguish. For those of you that don’t know, that’s not a dungeon. It’s a large explorable zone. (Granted back then explorable zones were limited to eight players)

However, since the last dungeon was added we’ve had the Lion’s Arch trilogy, Dry Top, Silverwastes, and the various achievements added in LS2. IMO, those have been good examples of testing out challenging group content. The guardians and Scarlet of Lion’s Arch had various mechanics that a group had to work around. Dry Top has dual mode mechanic with one mode being about preparing for the second one. And Silverwastes is a great example of taking what we wanted in Orr and the great PvE things of WvW and combining them into a mechanic that works as a constant battle for control of a zone.

Combine these three with the vertical aspect from the Tower of Nightmares (another good example of challenging group content) and that’s the kind of PvE experience Anet is trying to build in HoT. On top of new world bosses.

Why in the Eternal Alchemy do we want traditional MMO dungeons, heroic dungeons and raids in GW2? They’re boring as the Underworld. They’re limited and small in scope compared to the boss fights here. Tyria is a dangerous world…and the danger should be in it, not a small corner of a deep dark dungeon.

A dungeon is just a name of a specific content (instanced for pre-organised groups), dungeons in gw2 aren’t exactly dungeons. There has to be a content for people who want small scale combat with their friends.

The whole money argument needs some devils advocacy.
If all they cared about was the bottom line, they might as well push more development into gem-store content. Develop an expansion to sell for 30$ vs releasing a bikini on the gemstore for 30$ (and gem equiv). Hmmm what would take more time to develop?

They need to create a quality product, and if the instanced content is lacking then they’re going to have to give us A LOT of something else to make up for it.

rotten.9753:

A dungeon is just a name of a specific content (instanced for pre-organised groups), dungeons in gw2 aren’t exactly dungeons. There has to be a content for people who want small scale combat with their friends.

Oh yeah, I’m more addressing the OP as well as the concept of MMORPG dungeon that mostly comes from WoW and why it doesn’t really work well in GW2. For the content that you’re discussing, rotten, I think Fractals fill that particular niche better than a traditional can due to the varying degrees of difficulty. While I’ve yet to go above level 29 in Fractals (though I have the appropriate AR for it), most of the people I know don’t even do them as regularly as I do. So I could go with them at their level and get some reward without being unable to get my reward for something on my level.

In terms of money, value is ALWAYS subjective. There are various algorithms and equations to determine which will be the most profitable. However, in game design, it’s less accurate. Especially for Anet who pays attention to the actual metrics and not the forums. Forum goers are almost always a vocal minority in a game. Say a new world boss costs the same in development as a new dungeon, the decision between implementing one or the other (assuming that you must choose one) will be based on which content is relevant and will keep people playing longer. They both have daily rewards, so how often people play them isn’t as relevant as who plays them more.

Also, art assets are a COMPLETELY different thing to game assets. If they sell a new eyepatch model on the gemstore, it doesn’t mean that they took people away from the dungeon team to work on the eyepatch. Especially since someone who doesn’t do art wouldn’t know how to design art assets as well.

Cbomb.4310:

The whole money argument needs some devils advocacy.
If all they cared about was the bottom line, they might as well push more development into gem-store content. Develop an expansion to sell for 30$ vs releasing a bikini on the gemstore for 30$ (and gem equiv). Hmmm what would take more time to develop?

They need to create a quality product, and if the instanced content is lacking then they’re going to have to give us A LOT of something else to make up for it.

Engagement and retention are massively important to profits. If people quit playing your game because they’re bored, they’re not going to buy those raven wings.

So the question is, do dungeons, on the whole, drive engagement?

They certainly do for some people, but for how many?

Windsagio.1340:

Cbomb.4310:

The whole money argument needs some devils advocacy.
If all they cared about was the bottom line, they might as well push more development into gem-store content. Develop an expansion to sell for 30$ vs releasing a bikini on the gemstore for 30$ (and gem equiv). Hmmm what would take more time to develop?

They need to create a quality product, and if the instanced content is lacking then they’re going to have to give us A LOT of something else to make up for it.

Engagement and retention are massively important to profits. If people quit playing your game because they’re bored, they’re not going to buy those raven wings.

So the question is, do dungeons, on the whole, drive engagement?

They certainly do for some people, but for how many?

Only ANet would have those stats and they’re not telling us.

CureForLiving.5360:

Windsagio.1340:

Cbomb.4310:

The whole money argument needs some devils advocacy.
If all they cared about was the bottom line, they might as well push more development into gem-store content. Develop an expansion to sell for 30$ vs releasing a bikini on the gemstore for 30$ (and gem equiv). Hmmm what would take more time to develop?

They need to create a quality product, and if the instanced content is lacking then they’re going to have to give us A LOT of something else to make up for it.

Engagement and retention are massively important to profits. If people quit playing your game because they’re bored, they’re not going to buy those raven wings.

So the question is, do dungeons, on the whole, drive engagement?

They certainly do for some people, but for how many?

Only ANet would have those stats and they’re not telling us.

So we try to extrapolate what they’re thinking based on their behavior, with the assumption that they’re a rationally run company.

Windsagio.1340:

CureForLiving.5360:

Windsagio.1340:

Cbomb.4310:

The whole money argument needs some devils advocacy.
If all they cared about was the bottom line, they might as well push more development into gem-store content. Develop an expansion to sell for 30$ vs releasing a bikini on the gemstore for 30$ (and gem equiv). Hmmm what would take more time to develop?

They need to create a quality product, and if the instanced content is lacking then they’re going to have to give us A LOT of something else to make up for it.

Engagement and retention are massively important to profits. If people quit playing your game because they’re bored, they’re not going to buy those raven wings.

So the question is, do dungeons, on the whole, drive engagement?

They certainly do for some people, but for how many?

Only ANet would have those stats and they’re not telling us.

So we try to extrapolate what they’re thinking based on their behavior, with the assumption that they’re a rationally run company.

You know what happens when you assume.

Cbomb.4310:

Windsagio.1340:

CureForLiving.5360:

Windsagio.1340:

Cbomb.4310:

The whole money argument needs some devils advocacy.
If all they cared about was the bottom line, they might as well push more development into gem-store content. Develop an expansion to sell for 30$ vs releasing a bikini on the gemstore for 30$ (and gem equiv). Hmmm what would take more time to develop?

They need to create a quality product, and if the instanced content is lacking then they’re going to have to give us A LOT of something else to make up for it.

Engagement and retention are massively important to profits. If people quit playing your game because they’re bored, they’re not going to buy those raven wings.

So the question is, do dungeons, on the whole, drive engagement?

They certainly do for some people, but for how many?

Only ANet would have those stats and they’re not telling us.

So we try to extrapolate what they’re thinking based on their behavior, with the assumption that they’re a rationally run company.

You know what happens when you assume.

Oh c’mon now. Are you saying that it’s more likely this (apparent/likely) decision is based on irrational decision making?

LOL . how does it feel to have them tables flipped on you?

But seriously,
They have had a very narrow view for this game for quite some time. They know what they failed at and what they’ve succeeded at. They’ve even admitted to a few of those mistakes. Its ignorant to assume everything they attempt from here on out will be golden.

Honestly, you havnt posted anything in this thread that isnt blatant fanboism.

Windsagio.1340:

Cbomb.4310:

The whole money argument needs some devils advocacy.
If all they cared about was the bottom line, they might as well push more development into gem-store content. Develop an expansion to sell for 30$ vs releasing a bikini on the gemstore for 30$ (and gem equiv). Hmmm what would take more time to develop?

They need to create a quality product, and if the instanced content is lacking then they’re going to have to give us A LOT of something else to make up for it.

Engagement and retention are massively important to profits. If people quit playing your game because they’re bored, they’re not going to buy those raven wings.

So the question is, do dungeons, on the whole, drive engagement?

They certainly do for some people, but for how many?

^^ THIS!!!!

Exactly the point I’ve been trying to make in all these threads. I can’t help but feel that they’re off on their projections when the decided to drop dungeons.

I think ANet has realized this and why they’re repeating that there will be challenging group content so often. The question will be how is it going to be packaged, if they’re able to pull it off without instances, cool, it’ll be a first I’ve seen since people realized the strength of zerging. I doubt they’ll be able to though, so I can’t help but think that we’ll see instances of some time with content in them, that or they simply won’t follow through and actually give us challenging group content.

That’s why personally I won’t be pre-ordering, and I’ll be asking people about it for the first few weeks to see if it’s even worth playing.

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

Cbomb.4310:

The whole money argument needs some devils advocacy.
If all they cared about was the bottom line, they might as well push more development into gem-store content. Develop an expansion to sell for 30$ vs releasing a bikini on the gemstore for 30$ (and gem equiv). Hmmm what would take more time to develop?

They need to create a quality product, and if the instanced content is lacking then they’re going to have to give us A LOT of something else to make up for it.

Engagement and retention are massively important to profits. If people quit playing your game because they’re bored, they’re not going to buy those raven wings.

So the question is, do dungeons, on the whole, drive engagement?

They certainly do for some people, but for how many?

^^ THIS!!!!

Exactly the point I’ve been trying to make in all these threads. I can’t help but feel that they’re off on their projections when the decided to drop dungeons.

I think ANet has realized this and why they’re repeating that there will be challenging group content so often. The question will be how is it going to be packaged, if they’re able to pull it off without instances, cool, it’ll be a first I’ve seen since people realized the strength of zerging. I doubt they’ll be able to though, so I can’t help but think that we’ll see instances of some time with content in them, that or they simply won’t follow through and actually give us challenging group content.

That’s why personally I won’t be pre-ordering, and I’ll be asking people about it for the first few weeks to see if it’s even worth playing.

“Fanboyisms” aside, there’s a PR element to the challenging group content bit, or so it seems to me.

I’m also curious to see if they can have their cake and eat it too on this, although I enjoy both (3 of 4?) versions of the gameplay so I’ll be relatively ok either way.

On whether they’re wrong about the de-emphasis on dungeons, I’m more likely to think Anet knows what they’re doing than to trust people on the forum who are largely pushing a POV. I could be wrong of course ><

Adding a new dungeon does not require a new expansion. Saying the new expansion should have a new dungeon is like saying it should have new armor skins or weapon skins or new types of vegetation from which to harvest the same things we already have in the game. These things are cool, yes, but not automatically associated with an expansion. There probably will be new dungeons or at least new dungeon paths in the future, but as they are not REQUIRED for an expansion, I think ANet will worry first about getting this expansion out and running before adding future dungeons or dungeon paths.

Consider how much it sucks to be aiming for dungeon completion, to almost have it, then to see a new dungeon introduced.

Personally I think they should work at making the dungeon paths that nobody ever, ever does except for achievements more viable. Make them quicker or more enjoyable or up the rewards to motivate people to take the extra time to do these paths.

To all those who live solely for dungeons, sorry, but I think you will have to wait.

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

Cbomb.4310:

The whole money argument needs some devils advocacy.
If all they cared about was the bottom line, they might as well push more development into gem-store content. Develop an expansion to sell for 30$ vs releasing a bikini on the gemstore for 30$ (and gem equiv). Hmmm what would take more time to develop?

They need to create a quality product, and if the instanced content is lacking then they’re going to have to give us A LOT of something else to make up for it.

Engagement and retention are massively important to profits. If people quit playing your game because they’re bored, they’re not going to buy those raven wings.

So the question is, do dungeons, on the whole, drive engagement?

They certainly do for some people, but for how many?

^^ THIS!!!!

Exactly the point I’ve been trying to make in all these threads. I can’t help but feel that they’re off on their projections when the decided to drop dungeons.

I think ANet has realized this and why they’re repeating that there will be challenging group content so often. The question will be how is it going to be packaged, if they’re able to pull it off without instances, cool, it’ll be a first I’ve seen since people realized the strength of zerging. I doubt they’ll be able to though, so I can’t help but think that we’ll see instances of some time with content in them, that or they simply won’t follow through and actually give us challenging group content.

That’s why personally I won’t be pre-ordering, and I’ll be asking people about it for the first few weeks to see if it’s even worth playing.

“Fanboyisms” aside, there’s a PR element to the challenging group content bit, or so it seems to me.

I’m also curious to see if they can have their cake and eat it too on this, although I enjoy both (3 of 4?) versions of the gameplay so I’ll be relatively ok either way.

On whether they’re wrong about the de-emphasis on dungeons, I’m more likely to think Anet knows what they’re doing than to trust people on the forum who are largely pushing a POV. I could be wrong of course ><

Ohh I don’t disagree that the challenging content might just be a bunch of smoke they’re trying to blow.

(The following commentary does NOT apply to Fractals and LS S2 replays for Achievements)

What’s the point in adding more dungeons? Levels aren’t going to increase. Gear isn’t getting more tiers. Armor skins can be added to the open world with a casual version and more hardcore version. Extra cosmetics and harder pieces to get (such as Legendaries) already encourage dungeon exploration. With everyone able to reasonably get at least one version of every legendary in HoT, dungeons could see a large influx of players.

But, again, I ask. Why do we need more? I’m not saying that adding more is a bad things. I’m not saying that I wouldn’t like more dungeons (because I would). But what purpose would a new dungeon add? Armor skins and weapon skins? Another currency to use? More shinies to equip?

Berserker is the best gear stat for dungeons…and I don’t see that changing. Unless the new dungeons are even faster, CoF1 will still be one of the go-to daily dungeons for grinding gold.

Dungeons are probably the most expensive form of content in GW2. You’ve got to have writers making the story, multiple artists create the environment, create the mobs, and add in animations for bosses, developers to program the bosses, and after all that, it’s more bloat to the dungeon team who has to make sure players don’t exploit the system and break the dungeons.

At the end of the day, new dungeons (IMO) shouldn’t be added at this point. The dungeon team should focus on improving the ones we have. The speedrunning “meta” (I don’t like calling it meta because speedrunning dungeons is always going to be niche) isn’t going away. I say instead of a new dungeon, why not add a dungeon timer with rewards for getting it done fast!? You can get your shinies, your titles and everything to make you stand out in a crowd while asking something that’s more reasonable for the devs AND supports and enhances the current dungeon meta.

So what’s the difference between adding a new dungeon and a new map with a personal story segment? Effort-wise.

rotten.9753:

So what’s the difference between adding a new dungeon and a new map with a personal story segment? Effort-wise.

While the efforts might not differ much (I would guess that a new map takes more effort though.) the amount of people using the fruits of the effort differ greatly.

A new map will be visited for years, while dungeons might end up being more or less abandoned after a few months.

Thus one thing feels more worth it from a development point of view.

Not only what Krall said, but also the amount of resources dedicated to it in the coming years. Ideally, dungeons need to be updated so that as new things are added for players to use that they won’t break the dungeons (remember the old CoF2 skip trick with lightning hammer?) and that the dungeons themselves won’t break.

A personal story instance? It just has to remain playable (for the most part). Also, if players now have difficulty doing an achievement, that’s MUCH, MUCH easier to debug than an entire dungeon path.

Fade.1743:

(The following commentary does NOT apply to Fractals and LS S2 replays for Achievements)

What’s the point in adding more dungeons? Levels aren’t going to increase. Gear isn’t getting more tiers. Armor skins can be added to the open world with a casual version and more hardcore version. Extra cosmetics and harder pieces to get (such as Legendaries) already encourage dungeon exploration. With everyone able to reasonably get at least one version of every legendary in HoT, dungeons could see a large influx of players.

But, again, I ask. Why do we need more? I’m not saying that adding more is a bad things. I’m not saying that I wouldn’t like more dungeons (because I would). But what purpose would a new dungeon add? Armor skins and weapon skins? Another currency to use? More shinies to equip?

More encounters that are suited to small groups and cant be zerged down? Some people like to actually feel like they have an impact on the encounter. And they like to play with just their friends. Open world doesnt really let you do that. And you certainly cant reliably solo/small group bosses when any random player can just jump in and invade your play experience. Megaservers killed any chance of that. I miss the days of guesting to Vabbi and solo/duoing temple bosses in orr. Not everyone likes open world zerging.

There should be variety in PvE. Large group encounters and small group encounters. Current dungeons are very old and dont take advantage of the combat system. Having improved new dungeons would be a huge draw for many players.

I am bummed we aren’t getting new dungeon content. I am also bummed Chris Whiteside left because he was the one hinting at the possibility and talking about Guild Raids. I would imagine those still may be a thing albeit not a great chance of that with this x-pac.

I game with a tight-knit crew of pals that has been playing this franchise since 2007 together and apart since launch.

Dungeons are our fave thing to do together and have spanned multiple titles. The thing that is so disconcerting about this game not getting any new 5-man instanced dungeon content replete with earnable rewards from said content is that the mechanics in this game are far superior to other games in the genre in my opinion.

I don’t know what happened that made them decide to nix creating new dungeon content when they have made some of my favorite dungeons over the years. There is a good segment of the population that likes dungeon content. Heck, there was even a time that dungeon speed clear competitions were getting more views than PvP in this game. For good reason too. It’s way more enjoyable to watch.

ArenaNet, please reconsider your stance on creating new dungeon content. It adds to my fears that we won’t even be getting any new armor skins or glider skins for playing content in the game as rewards or crafting. I fear they will all be on the gem shop.

None of this even has anything to do with my biggest complaint of the x-pac: Zero climate diversity. It’s all jungle all the time. Have fun staring at the same flora and fauna in 2 or 3 maps for a month, let alone 6 months. It’ll get grating really quickly.

The other question that afaik hasn’t even been asked yet is “Why won’t new fractals work?”

We don’t know if new fractals are coming either (although new fractal support seems to be), but would that work?

Dungeons are (when you’re good) much easier and much more rewarding in pure cash, is that the thing?

Its difficult to accept fractals as the solution with their current implementation and rewards. Most challenging content and the least rewarding. Also the fractured patch didnt exactly give us much faith in fractal improvements.

No matter how much we influence fractals it will never be the perfect alternative for people who just want to jump into a quick instance of their choice for semi decent rewards. I dont ever expect them to change the 3 fractal 1 boss setup.

And being rewarding in pure cash is a factor. Gold never becomes unrewarding. Things like fractal skins and ascended gear become increasingly unrewarding the more you recieve them. There comes a point where you dont need them. And you would rather just have gold to save for the next expensive skin on the TP.

spoj.9672:

Its difficult to accept fractals as the solution with their current implementation and rewards. Most challenging content and the least rewarding. Also the fractured patch didnt exactly give us much faith in fractal improvements.

No matter how much we influence fractals it will never be the perfect alternative for people who just want to jump into a quick instance of their choice for semi decent rewards. I dont ever expect them to change the 3 fractal 1 boss setup.

I’d hope the desire for dungeons isn’t primarily about them being justified by rewards though ><

Its not. But i dont always have time or the will to do a full fractal run. Sometimes i want to do a single path of a dungeon. Something which takes 15 minutes maximum. Sometimes i want my challenging content in bitesize slices. A fractal run takes between 20 minutes (extremely good rng and smooth run) and an hour. This is also something many casual players complain about. They cant do fractals because they dont have the time. This is a casual game after all.

if the dungeons were redesigned to skill levels they probably wouldn’t be so fast or easy though.

Even if there were new dungeons they wouldn’t be the 15 minute gimmies that the old ones are.

spoj.9672:

Its not. But i dont always have time or the will to do a full fractal run. Sometimes i want to do a single path of a dungeon. Something which takes 15 minutes maximum. Sometimes i want my challenging content in bitesize slices. A fractal run takes between 20 minutes (extremely good rng and smooth run) and an hour. This is also something many casual players complain about. They cant do fractals because they dont have the time. This is a casual game after all.

An hour is very short for an RPG dungeon at level. Call the game casual or whatever, if you don’t massively outgear or outlevel a dungeon, twenty minutes to an hour seems very reasonable. ((Considering I’ve spent two to three hours in a few WoW dungeons while levelling…))

If you want challenging content in bite-size chunks with small groups in instances, then GW2 is really not the game you should be looking towards. ((Honestly, I doubt most MMOs could hold that up for extended lengths of time.)) The only reason new dungeons are challenging is because you don’t have experience with them. To fulfill your desires, they’d have to continually add dungeons, which is clearly something they have yet to express a desire to do.

I don’t think what you’re asking is completely unreasonable, but do keep in mind where you’re asking it. Could it be done? Yes. However, that kind of content is very niche. And it’s not a niche that Guild Wars really fulfills.

They designed them to be about 20 minutes each (old dev post at release). As long as they dont force timegates experienced players will always find ways to drastically shorten a dungeon. The thing with fractals is they are certainly not designed to be completed in 20 minutes for all 3 shards plus the boss. Thats something only really experienced speedrunners can do with godly map RNG.

I would say fractals are designed to be about 15 minutes per shard and 10 for the boss. So almost an hour. They actually designed fractals pretty well in that regard because even experienced groups dont get much faster than too often. But casual groups can take hours to do a full fractal. Even on a low fractal level.

And longer dungeons arent necessarily better. Ive seen a lot of praise because dungeons in gw2 are so short compared to other MMO’s. And i agree its a nice time frame for instanced content. Not too long to cause problems for even quite time restricted players. And not too short for the average group. I mean personally i would rather have an action packed 10 minute dungeon than a slow paced 30 minute dungeon. Length and completion time doesnt really matter if the content is good and engaging (assuming its not unreasonably long).

Windsagio.1340:

The other question that afaik hasn’t even been asked yet is “Why won’t new fractals work?”

We don’t know if new fractals are coming either (although new fractal support seems to be), but would that work?

Dungeons are (when you’re good) much easier and much more rewarding in pure cash, is that the thing?

I love fractals, what I hate is the system they’re pushed into.

The random nature means that while there may be a new fractal you get it maybe once a week, maybe every time, who knows. Just not a big fan of random at all. Combine that with the much longer string of them means you just don’t always have time for it.

I can do a 5-10 minute SE1 or a 30min-2 hour Fractal run depending on how my group performs. It’s a pretty big margin that you have to prepare for compared to dungeons.

Now you see you say a typical expansion well GW2 isn’t a typical MMO and this expansion will innovate and change how MMO expansions work now that could mean there are dungeons like many other typical MMOs and this is most likely the case if so I’m sure Arena net will announce it with the challenging group content deep dive we need to be patient.

Windsagio.1340:

The other question that afaik hasn’t even been asked yet is “Why won’t new fractals work?”

We don’t know if new fractals are coming either (although new fractal support seems to be), but would that work?

Dungeons are (when you’re good) much easier and much more rewarding in pure cash, is that the thing?

Yeah fractals do feel like they were made to be easily expanded upon. Adding a small instance here and there would conceivably be less effort than adding a full on dungeon with multiple paths. Even if they only add a new boss instance (i.e. only a single area with a single boss).

Wooyadeen.6491:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

In a typical boxed expansion, the majority of the repeatable content is in the form of dungeons/raids. Generally for a $40 expansion you will get 8-10 dungeons with 8-10 additional hard modes, and 2-3 raids. These dungeons are generally what keep people playing the content as they search for new gear and master the encounters…

Is there an equivalent in HoT? What will keep us playing after we finish the story 2-3 weeks in?

I just haven’t seen any info on this, i’m sure it is somewhere, but I can’t find it.

M8 this is (guild wars2) forum. There is no raids or expert dungeons here… Did you misstype something?

They promised us PVP MMO woth some PVE content, but after 3 years, i didnt see any PVP or even PVE content. Just boring grind… There is no raids or expert dungeons.

3 years after launch this game does not even have a pvp (only 1 buggy stupid, boring and unbalanced conquest mode).

GW2 have best graphic, i think best engine also but… worst pvp and pve developer team ever…

WoW and Rift are much better and interesting game, they got endgame content and few diferent pvp modes… We got good graphics, they got pvp&pve endgame + alot of fun…

GW2 developers can write bestseller “How to ruin the best opportunity – 101”.

Alternate reality much?

serenke.4806:

Alternate reality much?

It’s pretty simple, whatever doesn’t directly benefit and massively please me is terrible business practice.

lordkrall.7241:

While the efforts might not differ much (I would guess that a new map takes more effort though.) the amount of people using the fruits of the effort differ greatly.

A new map will be visited for years, while dungeons might end up being more or less abandoned after a few months.

Thus one thing feels more worth it from a development point of view.

True, I guess maps like Lornar’s Pass or Dredgehaunt Cliffs are much more frequent visited by players than dungeons.

Fade.1743:

Not only what Krall said, but also the amount of resources dedicated to it in the coming years. Ideally, dungeons need to be updated so that as new things are added for players to use that they won’t break the dungeons (remember the old CoF2 skip trick with lightning hammer?) and that the dungeons themselves won’t break.

A personal story instance? It just has to remain playable (for the most part). Also, if players now have difficulty doing an achievement, that’s MUCH, MUCH easier to debug than an entire dungeon path.

Ever heard the term replayability?

Brother Grimm.5176:

This is the part of this argument Dungeon runners do not want to admit. I’m not saying a mode of the game you love should be ignored, but resources should be put where a majority of players are playing.

That’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. Guild Wars 2’s dungeons are currently dying specifically because of developer neglect. You can’t use the fact that they’re dying to justify continued neglect.

Or in other words, the question isn’t where dungeons are now, the question is where dungeons could be if they were getting proper attention.

It’s already been proven over and over again that dungeons and raids do still work for casual players.

In fact, they can serve the needs of casual players better than open world content would. Players will always optimise the fun out of any game, if it’s possible to do and it lets them ‘win’ more — or, in context, if it gets them more shinies. And this means that in an open loot game, it is literally impossible to make non-instanced PvE content that actually entertains anyone in the long run. If the content lacks rewards, nobody will ever do it, and if it has decent rewards, it will be done in zergs — and nothing worthwhile about a piece of PvE content can survive contact with a zerg, save for its rewards.