Guild Wars 2

I think it’s fair to say that there are some people who like hard mode. There are plenty who come out and say “make X more challenging.” Fair enough that, they know what they like and are entitled to express that. But there are also people who do not enjoy hard mode, and they are not your lessers, they are no less deserving of getting what they enjoy out of the game, and we all need to keep that in mind.

With that in mind, we have the constant discussions over adding difficult content to the game, and the best ways of doing that. I think that it’s important when difficult content is added, that effort is taken to make it as optional as possible. It should definitely be there for those that want it, but those who do not enjoy that sort of play should be able to avoid it completely, and not feel punished by the game for not enjoying that sort of thing. They should not be blocked out from fun experiences and cool rewards, they should not have a slower advancement path, just because they do not want to participate in difficult content, or are incapable of doing so.

In its ideal form, every type of content should have both “easier” modes, and “hard modes” available. I’m not talking “turn on auto-run and auto attack and you’ll be fine” easy, I just mean that it doesn’t require absolute coordination and precision to survive the encounters, content similar to the basic content the game launched with. The more challenging modes can go crazy with one-hit kills that must be avoided, elaborate death traps, that sort of thing, but these should be avoidable by those who choose to avoid them.

The most important factor is that there should not be a reward gap between the two varieties of play. Just because a player is not interested or capable of hard mode does not mean that he is less deserving of a cool looking skin or useful piece of gear. Hard mode content can have a leaderboard, or titles, so people can show off that they have completed it, but should not have anything that is inherently cool that cannot be earned elsewhere, nothing that would be cool whether it denoted the achievement or not. The basic test is, “if anyone got this item for free in the mail, might you still want it?” If so, then it should not be locked behind hard mode content.

If hard mode content always takes more time to complete than the normal mode, even once you have it on farm, then it can provide a quantity of loot sufficient to make it no less rewarding than the easier mode per minute, but anything you can earn from that mode should be earnable in both. for example if a hard mode dungeon takes 500% longer than a normal mode one, even once people have mastered it, then it could offer 50% more loot drops, so that it balances out, but there should never be a super special armor type that you can only earn from that mode, or that technically drops in both but has a decent chance of dropping in hard mode while only a Precursor-level chance fo dropping in normal.

You should be running the hard mode because you enjoy the challenge, not because the game bribes you into it, and if for a second you begin to think “well if it only offered the same rewards as normal then I wouldn’t do it,” then you should be playing normal mode, and maybe they shouldn’t even bother with a hard mode if enough people think that way.

If you want more challenging content because you enjoy a challenge, then I hope ANet lives up to your expectations. If you want harder content because you want access to rewards that most players can’t have, then that’s just being a selfish jerk, and I very much hope that ANet does not indulge you in that.

@Ohoni.6057 You speak very much with my own words, even a bit more eloquently than I could have put into mass text. Thank you for the extra voice.

I don’t think I agree with this. There is nothing wrong with rewarding unique skin or titles to different types of content (including hard content). As long as they aren’t gaining better stats then it is fine. Fractals are going to have their own unique legendary back piece. Pvp as well. I’ll probably never get the latter one especially and that is TOTALLY ok. Effort should be properly rewarded and I don’t think throwing garbage loot at people is sufficient.

A TL/DR would be valuable here, but if you want the same rewards as people who do more difficult content, I think you’re flawed.

Content should span a broad range of difficulties, but rewards should reflect that range.

Why do you even care what kind of rewards are given out in content you’re not interested in? It’s not like the rewards will have better stats, maybe just some exclusive skins. Our gear is basically little trophies of our in game accomplishments, and everyone has the same opportunity to achieve those in game trophies, but only if they decide it’s worth their time and effort. If I decide it’s not worth my time and effort I move on to something that is. I don’t get angry or feel cheated because I choose not to pursue it. So again, why do you even care what rewards are given out in content you’re not interested in?

xarallei.4279:

I don’t think I agree with this. There is nothing wrong with rewarding unique skin or titles to different types of content (including hard content). As long as they aren’t gaining better stats then it is fine. Fractals are going to have their own unique legendary back piece. Pvp as well. I’ll probably never get the latter one especially and that is TOTALLY ok. Effort should be properly rewarded and I don’t think throwing garbage loot at people is sufficient.

Completely agree with this. There is no harm to reward someone for their hard work, even if its just a different type of unique armor or weapon skin. The items most likely will not have higher stats, so it will be simply cosmetic change. Also I dont find it strange at all, to reward people for putting a lot more hours into something others pass for less. If a certain player enjoy less chalenging content, I dont see how they should be feeling ‘left out’, when someone completes a kittene and get his/her reward. Its not like the easier content dont reward aswell.

Ohoni.6057:

If you want more challenging content because you enjoy a challenge, then I hope ANet lives up to your expectations. If you want harder content because you want access to rewards that most players can’t have, then that’s just being a selfish jerk, and I very much hope that ANet does not indulge you in that.

Inherently anything anyone wants is for their own selfish desires. Something to show off, whether that is a title or a skin, that comes after a piece of hard content is more or less a prestigious item. Denying people to have a cool looking prestigious item after hard challenging content is equally being a selfish jerk.

(disclaimer: obviously no one is a selfish jerk for just wanting something and/or getting their wishes fulfilled)

Ohoni.6057:

If you want more challenging content because you enjoy a challenge, then I hope ANet lives up to your expectations. If you want harder content because you want access to rewards that most players can’t have, then that’s just being a selfish jerk, and I very much hope that ANet does not indulge you in that.

You know there are skins that are no longer available, or behind terrible RNG, or require a serious amount of grinding to get. Yet some players are happy with that. How about making those old/unavailable skins rewards for harder content?

Even so, I’d be fine if they didn’t give special/unique skins for doing hard content, but they should make it so you get those types of skins from hard content by putting effort in finishing the content and not grinding/farming. So it’s a choice between grinding for ages or getting a reward with very high chances (even 100% in some cases)

To tell you the truth, I´d immediately begin to climb the mountain of mindless grind if it would only free me from the obligation to make the LS2 garbage again for lumi armor.

Remember the first question after creating content that has to be answered in most all game design is “Does this content offer appropriate or proportional rewards to effort and time spent?” So with your idea of adding more trash loot the answer will always be no. There is a reason challenging content has unique skins, because you have to make sure the player is rewarded appropriately to effort and time. If I have to put in lets say twice the effort and you already went with five times the amount of time then how is it not fair for me to have a higher chance at getting something then you? If you want the higher chance you have the choice to learn to do it. Everyone has the choice to become a better player and learn the harder content, if you don’t want to make that choice then the players that do should not be punished.

I don’t agree with you, at all, on the loot part. As long as the stats are the same. Hard mode content needs unique skins and rewards, a goal to strive towards. Fractals has the unique weapon skins, and hardcore content will have the same if not more, you buying the game does not entitle you to have acces to all of it without effort, and if you don’t want to do a certain type of content, you don’t have to, but don’t expect the rewards for free. I will probally never get the Legendary pvp backpiece, altough i love the skin of it, but i accept that. And that’s what you’ll have to do, accept that certain people will have certain skins that require you to do certain types of content, deal with it.

I don’t agree with this at all. If you complete harder content you should get better stuff, end of story.

People are fond of comparing this game to Guild Wars 1. There was very little in Guild Wars 1 that couldn’t be purchased with gold. Arguably, the hardest weapons to attain were the weapons from DOA, or maybe rare stuff like the celestial compass, the bonecage scythe, the frog scepter or the voltaic spear.

All these high end items were available to sell. You didn’t have to be great to get them. You could farm feathers in a low end zone over and over till you could afford to purchase them.

No one in Guild Wars 1 seemed that riled that their rewards weren’t exclusive. It allowed players who wanted challenge to do challenging content and profit. It allowed less intense players to have the rewards.

I think this is the best solution all the way around.

To those who support those hard core rewards, I guarantee you if there are enough rewards casual players can’t get, you won’t have enough players left to continue running the game. Casuals, in my opinion, make a vast percentage of the playerbase. The more you put out of their reach, the more of them you lose.

Vayne.8563:

To those who support those hard core rewards, I guarantee you if there are enough rewards casual players can’t get, you won’t have enough players left to continue running the game. Casuals, in my opinion, make a vast percentage of the playerbase. The more you put out of their reach, the more of them you lose.

They are adding a new legendary backpack available only to those who compete at the higher end of PVP (top league) so it’s not unreasonable for them to add more items like that in PVE, maybe as a reward from Challenging Group Content. As for older rewards, the fractal weapon skins and glorious hero armor come to mind.

What I hated with those GW1 skins was the fact that you didn’t get them as a reward from doing the content that gave them. No. You really went through a horrible grind to get them. That’s why players created specialized speed clear teams, to clear the content as fast as possible so they can have a higher chance of getting that reward with the abysmal low random chances.

If they do the same with GW2 it will be an endless grind all over again. To me, hard content means less grinding, otherwise there is no purpose for it.

Vayne.8563:

People are fond of comparing this game to Guild Wars 1. There was very little in Guild Wars 1 that couldn’t be purchased with gold. Arguably, the hardest weapons to attain were the weapons from DOA, or maybe rare stuff like the celestial compass, the bonecage scythe, the frog scepter or the voltaic spear.

All these high end items were available to sell. You didn’t have to be great to get them. You could farm feathers in a low end zone over and over till you could afford to purchase them.

No one in Guild Wars 1 seemed that riled that their rewards weren’t exclusive. It allowed players who wanted challenge to do challenging content and profit. It allowed less intense players to have the rewards.

I think this is the best solution all the way around.

To those who support those hard core rewards, I guarantee you if there are enough rewards casual players can’t get, you won’t have enough players left to continue running the game. Casuals, in my opinion, make a vast percentage of the playerbase. The more you put out of their reach, the more of them you lose.

Make the items attainable only through hard content but allow sale of them. Problem solved.

People who enjoy hard content can do the hard content and gain exclusives that they can keep or sell.

People who don’t enjoy the hard content can now buy said stuff from grinding.

Create badges (the thingy next to your name like the world completion) and titles that are only from completing said content for unique stuff that you can use to show off so that people who want that “unique”-ness can be satisfied through that.

Raif.9507:

Make the items attainable only through hard content but allow sale of them. Problem solved.

The same problem that exists with nearly everything else in the game, is also here. That is, why do the content if I can just do the best farm and buy it? They are already trying to fix this with the map rewards, allowing players to earn what they want by playing content, instead of farming the gold for it. Now you want them to go a few steps back again?

The only way for this to work is if the regular rewards, other than the unique ones, are worth a lot more than what you get from just doing chest/champion/whatever mindless boring farming exist.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I don’t agree with this at all. If you complete harder content you should get better stuff, end of story.

You should remember however, that the end result in such case is that the people that can’t do that content will complain long enough for that content to be nerfed eventually. And then you won’t have neither prestigious rewards, nor challenging content at all.

Klocknov.8219:

Remember the first question after creating content that has to be answered in most all game design is “Does this content offer appropriate or proportional rewards to effort and time spent?”

Wow. That is so very, very wrong. Not saying you’re wrong, just the statement is.

The first question should always be “Is this fun?” If rewards are the main reason you’re doing content, and not because you enjoy that content, then maybe there’s something wrong.

As for exclusive rewards for tougher content? I think it’s a mistake to put anything cosmetic or “in world” as such a reward. Casual players should always be able to earn it, but it’s okay if hard-mode players earn it faster. Things that are not “in world”, such as badges or titles (they show on the user interface, yes, but they’re not actually a part of your character) are fine as hard mode rewards.

But if hard mode is to mean anything, then it needs to be HARD. Bugs need to be fixed, exploits need to be punished. And if it becomes too predictable, it needs to be changed. Hard mode should NEVER become a farm, it should result in party wipes and failures. If it’s not truly hard, then there’s no need to even pretend that it should have some kind of increased rewards, exclusive or not.

maddoctor.2738:

Raif.9507:

Make the items attainable only through hard content but allow sale of them. Problem solved.

The same problem that exists with nearly everything else in the game, is also here. That is, why do the content if I can just do the best farm and buy it?

Well, that depends entirely on what you’re after. If you’re after rewards, then obviously you will try to get them the easier way. Most people asking for hardcore content however claim, that what they are after is not rewards, but challenge. In that case they should do the content for challenge it offers.

So, basically this:

Klocknov.8219:

Klocknov.8219:

Remember the first question after creating content that has to be answered in most all game design is “Does this content offer appropriate or proportional rewards to effort and time spent?”

Wow. That is so very, very wrong. Not saying you’re wrong, just the statement is.

The first question should always be “Is this fun?” If rewards are the main reason you’re doing content, and not because you enjoy that content, then maybe there’s something wrong.

Hard mode should never exist just as a means to separate the “elite players” from “filthy casuals”. Certainly not in the game like GW2.

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

Raif.9507:

Make the items attainable only through hard content but allow sale of them. Problem solved.

The same problem that exists with nearly everything else in the game, is also here. That is, why do the content if I can just do the best farm and buy it?

Well, that depends entirely on what you’re after. If you’re after rewards, then obviously you will try to get them the easier way. Most people asking for hardcore content however claim, that what they are after is not rewards, but challenge. In that case they should do the content for challenge it offers.

Once or twice maybe. Then what? How do you keep players interested in doing that “hard content” in the long run?

Palador.2170:

Klocknov.8219:

Remember the first question after creating content that has to be answered in most all game design is “Does this content offer appropriate or proportional rewards to effort and time spent?”

The first question should always be “Is this fun?” If rewards are the main reason you’re doing content, and not because you enjoy that content, then maybe there’s something wrong.

Then Anet failed completely with their reward system. They failed so badly that is sad they haven’t fixed it after 3 years. The sad truth is, the more boring and less fun content in the game is, the more players it attracts, because it also has the most rewards.

Things like SW chest farms, PVP farm maps, or the old Queensdale train or the even older repeated CoF P1 runs. I’d say even the most hardcore lovers of that type of content don’t find it fun, yet all those have the most amount of players completing them.

“Fun” is subjective, reward is objective. You cannot quantify “fun” but you can reward. Although the first question should always be “is it fun?”, the “does it have appropriate rewards for the effort” is a very very close second.

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

Raif.9507:

Make the items attainable only through hard content but allow sale of them. Problem solved.

The same problem that exists with nearly everything else in the game, is also here. That is, why do the content if I can just do the best farm and buy it?

Well, that depends entirely on what you’re after. If you’re after rewards, then obviously you will try to get them the easier way. Most people asking for hardcore content however claim, that what they are after is not rewards, but challenge. In that case they should do the content for challenge it offers.

Once or twice maybe. Then what? How do you keep players interested in doing that “hard content” in the long run?

What kept people doing DOA? Or Slaver’s Exile? There were always people running stuff. It is my belief that only a small percentage of the GW 1 population ever completed Slaver’s Exile or DOA. Or the Deep or Urgoz’s Warren.

What kept people doing it? It was challenging and some people liked it. What happens when people get every reward and they can’t sell the new rewards they get?

Then they stop doing the content. By allowing people to sell, there’s a continued reason to do the hard content after they’ve gotten the rewards they’re after.

Think in terms of Fractal skins. Once you have the skins you need, you don’t need more of them. They’re not sellable. By allowing high end stuff to be rare and be sold, sure it becomes a grind….but then, no one can create enough hard content for it to be made and not be a grind. You’ll never have enough hard content if you don’t make a reason for people to repeat it.

If they didn’t do it in Guild Wars 1, how many people do you really think would have continued running that content?

The game should offer a variety of challenges and a variety of rewards. Some rewards should be tied to skill, some to chance, and some to perseverance. As it turns out, that’s what we have in this game (even though many of us might quibble with the balance between the acquisition methods).

I agree that hard more should be optional, but unique reward are a good thing. Not if that item provide an advantage over other people, but just a skin/title or something else like that it’s a good thing.

There is nothing hard in this game maybe 2% if you count living story they deleted
so there is enough for those players to do and no they shouldent be rewarded equally
as the ones who finish hard content.
Or lets say there is a frustrating JP not many can do and those rewards return later
for basicly no effort thats not fair towards the ones who did the hard jp.

I’m kind of shocked here. There is nothing wrong with rewarding hard content with unique skins. They are NOT getting better stats than you. And it’s not like the casuals won’t have skins to look forward to, I’m pretty sure Anet will be offering stuff for them too. The fact is, Anet is already doing this with the fractal back piece and the pvp legendary back piece. And no, you should not be able to earn these skins in any other way. Will there be a special pve back piece for other types of content that’s more casual friendly? Hopefully so. But it will be different from these other back pieces. You’re not going to earn the same exact things, but you will probably have a shot to earn something equally cool. You have to accept the fact that you aren’t going to get everything in this game.

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

Raif.9507:

Make the items attainable only through hard content but allow sale of them. Problem solved.

The same problem that exists with nearly everything else in the game, is also here. That is, why do the content if I can just do the best farm and buy it?

Well, that depends entirely on what you’re after. If you’re after rewards, then obviously you will try to get them the easier way. Most people asking for hardcore content however claim, that what they are after is not rewards, but challenge. In that case they should do the content for challenge it offers.

Once or twice maybe. Then what? How do you keep players interested in doing that “hard content” in the long run?

What kept people doing DOA? Or Slaver’s Exile? There were always people running stuff. It is my belief that only a small percentage of the GW 1 population ever completed Slaver’s Exile or DOA. Or the Deep or Urgoz’s Warren.

What kept people doing it? It was challenging and some people liked it. What happens when people get every reward and they can’t sell the new rewards they get?

Then they stop doing the content. By allowing people to sell, there’s a continued reason to do the hard content after they’ve gotten the rewards they’re after.

Think in terms of Fractal skins. Once you have the skins you need, you don’t need more of them. They’re not sellable. By allowing high end stuff to be rare and be sold, sure it becomes a grind….but then, no one can create enough hard content for it to be made and not be a grind. You’ll never have enough hard content if you don’t make a reason for people to repeat it.

If they didn’t do it in Guild Wars 1, how many people do you really think would have continued running that content?

Players kept doing DOA and Slaver’s Exile because it was worth running for the rewards, something that can’t be said about high level Fractals (or any other “high end” PVE in GW2). They simply can’t compete with other activities, much much easier activities. In GW1 they got the effort/reward ratio very well, in GW2 they failed in every possible way imaginable.

I don’t care much if they make rewards exclusive in hard mode content or not, but in either case they need to make it worth it. This can happen in two ways, one of them or both:

1) Allow players to get rewards with minimal grind from hard mode, compared to getting the same item in another way. This can’t work with not making items bound, because in order for the items to keep their rarity (and TP price) they need heavy RNG. Instead, they could add double ways of getting those items, much like the precursor crafting or ascended gear. You can either craft them, or you can get complete items as drops. So you either get the items by completing collections (with heavy grind/RNG involved) or get them as hard rewards from content.

2) Aside from the unique rewards of the “hard” mode, the rest of the rewards need to be on par (or even better) than rewards offered elsewhere. If the unique items are locked behind heavy RNG and the rest of the rewards aren’t worth the effort/time (So you will rarely get something) then that content would be pointless. Why have it?

What is the definition of ‘hard mode’? ‘Mode’ suggests a button to select a type of gameplay, but what I read here gives me the impression that players mean: hard endlevel content (for every player the same).

Albadaran.1283:

What is the definition of ‘hard mode’? ‘Mode’ suggests a button to select a type of gameplay, but what I read here gives me the impression that players mean: hard endlevel content (for every player the same).

We are getting something called “Challenging Group Content” with HoT, more info about it on next Saturday. Personally I can’t wait for it, since GCG is what will make or break HoT for me as I don’t care much about anything else they announced (and Tempest was terrible).

Maybe someone should come out with a game called “Marxism Online” it will be first of a new series of “Massive Marxist Online” games.

The game’s motto will be “From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs”.

Everyone can just sit around in the game being lazy with no incentive to do anything and they will just get everything for free from the GMs. Everyone will look alike and have exactly the same things. It will be a perfect utopia!

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The game should offer a variety of challenges and a variety of rewards. Some rewards should be tied to skill, some to chance, and some to perseverance. As it turns out, that’s what we have in this game (even though many of us might quibble with the balance between the acquisition methods).

I agree with Ill. Well, except that — as seriously as people treat the subject of rewards — to use the word “quibble” does not reflect their expressed feelings on the subject.

Food for thought… What’s best for the game is that ANet to some degree attempt to cater to the content/reward preferences of different demographics, and for all players to realize that everything in the game does not have to be aimed at their preferences.

I disagree with this.

I am all for equality in performance. There should be as little difference in stats between two equally-leveled players of the same profession as possible.

But for a community to thrive, there has to be some high-end prestige rewards to seek. For PvP, this is often as simple as simply having a top of the leaderboard to aspire to (though it doesn’t hurt to give exclusive skins like the Wings of Glory). For PvE, however, you really do need high-end skins.

The reason is simple. To keep a community going, it must have an ever-present goal. Preferably one that doesn’t render the rest of the game obsolete the way increased level caps do. With generation 1 legendary weapons, Arenanet made the mistake of removing all prestige and difficulty from obtaining these by emphasizing cost over challenge in obtaining them. Now, there is nothing wrong with having such options available when there also exists a set of prestige skins that prove a player has tackled difficult content. Indeed, generation 1 legendaries can round out the game’s high-end offerings by providing an “easy prestige” option. But the effects of not having actual difficulty-based prestige skins have already been observed in Guild Wars 2. The game was constantly dwindling in population. Its only end-game was a shallow gold-building experience. And the only thing that could revive it was an expansion announcement, because an expansion represents the possibility for a stronger future.

maddoctor.2738:

The same problem that exists with nearly everything else in the game, is also here. That is, why do the content if I can just do the best farm and buy it?

Because apparently more challenging content is more fun for a number of people (or so we are told, quite forcefully, on other threads) so wouldn’t you do content because it’s fun? Why on earth would somebody deliberately give themselves a less fun experience if there were no difference in reward between the more and less fun options?

Either the “more challenging content” crowd actually mean that they want more/better loot; or they find challenging game play a reward in itself. It’d be nice if people were a bit more honest about which of those options is true.

They don’t need to do it challenging group content is for the hardcore players people who want it.

I hope raids have rewards that are not higher in stats, but unique in look that are not obtainable anywhere else in game. I think the rewards should be BoP as well to keep the prestige of the items.
I also believe that more challenging content should be more rewarding than less difficult content. If raids are more difficult than waypointing and autoattacking they should reward much more than world bosses. If they are more difficult than stacking in a corner and melting a boss in seconds they should be more rewarding.

I very often argue in favor of challenging content in GW2.
What I want to make abundantly clear though, is that when I say challenging content I do not necessarily mean hard content.
While I do enjoy somewhat hard content as well (though I’m not particularly into super hard stuff), I expect even easy games to provide some form of challenge. That is because it’s a game. The medium itself demands it.
When I talk about content that challenges you, I mean content that requires you to pay attention to what you are doing, content that has depth of play, content that makes good use of GW2’s gameplay mechanics, content that engages the player, content that strongly encourages you to do more then just spam 1.
The problem with GW2 is that much of its content fails to do even that.

So when I say challenge, I’m not talking about some super hard stuff here. I’m talking about bringing the game up to a certain bare-minimum standard for how engaging it should be. And I think many people feel the same way when they invoke the word “challenge”, because GW2 is in just that poor of a state regarding player engagement in PvE.
I realize I’m playing with the definition a bit here, but I’m trying to express the sentiment behind the words being invoked.

Even some of the supposedly “most difficult” content isn’t actually a challenge from a gameplay perspective. For example, Great Jungle Wurm is pretty easy when all’s said and done. Victory is achieved by pre-fight organization, not by intensive and difficult combat on the player’s end. If you’re on TS3 the fight practically becomes a guided tour. And I do not mean that as any form of hyperbole.

Now such a philosophy may inevitably increase the game’s difficulty somewhat. But that’s fine, that’s a healthy increase in difficulty. One which players will naturally adapt to, grow better from, and still find enjoyable.
Remember at GW2 release, how “hard” much of the community thought the game was? But it wasn’t hard, we all just sucked at it and literally needed to learn how to play. To adapt to these new and unfamiliar mechanics for an MMO.
You should naturally be getting better at something you spend a lot of time on. And a game should never hesitate or be afraid about challenging its player. Especially for core-gaming, we’re not looking at a mobile game here.
It’s a game, not a movie, not a tv show, not a youtube video, not a book, not an amusement park ride. And as a game it thrives on directly engaging its user base, so don’t be afraid of it doing so. It’s an interactive medium.

I can appreciate wanting easy content. “An easy challenge” as it were. I want easy content too. I don’t want every moment of every game I play to be super intensive and difficult. That gets just plain frustrating (for me at least).
I want to be able to relax and leisurely play sometimes. And in the case of some content, such as story focused content, difficulty can actually be an unwelcome distraction.
But even still, even easy content must be “a challenge”. Because if it’s not, it might as well be a movie. Or I might as well watch it in a let’s play on youtube. Merely existing as a game loses it’s purpose if its not challenging you.

Now ONTOP of that, I also want some hard content. Just to be clear. My post is getting pretty long at this point, but suffice to say having a bit of hard content even in an overall easy or ‘’casual" game is important, particularly in MMOs. It greatly adds to the sense of breadth a game possesses when there’s content out there that few have overcome. It’s a huge motivating factor. And it provides a nugget of something to do, to grind and excel at, for those who are of the “hardcore” variety.

Regarding rewards, I definitely agree that quantity of rewards should reflect time spent.
But I do not agree with your view on unique rewards. Unique rewards should absolutely come from hard content. And I am talking about “hard” content here, not just “challenging” content as I distinguished it above.
Now that doesn’t mean ALL cool stuff should come from hard content. Most should be readily available elsewhere. But hard content should definitely have it’s own unique rewards. Just as PvP and WvW should each have their own unique stuff.
This is because it acts as a very powerful social motivator that gets more people more deeply involved with the game. This is especially true for MMOs, which are social beasts at their core.
I definitely understand wanting something you like to be made readily available to you. The problem with applying that philosophy too liberally is that
1) if you get everything you want, you have less motivating you to play
2) it destroys the social motivation system which is so important to MMOs. A cool and difficult to acquire skin isn’t just enjoyable for the person who owns it. It also adds to the experience of everyone who sees it in the possession of the person who owns it. It’s an important atmospheric element of any MMO, and a short-sighted “I want it, give” mentality will completely destroy that.

binidj.5734:

Because apparently more challenging content is more fun for a number of people (or so we are told, quite forcefully, on other threads) so wouldn’t you do content because it’s fun? Why on earth would somebody deliberately give themselves a less fun experience if there were no difference in reward between the more and less fun options?

Either the “more challenging content” crowd actually mean that they want more/better loot; or they find challenging game play a reward in itself. It’d be nice if people were a bit more honest about which of those options is true.

The truth is this.. they wan’t both challenging content and better loot options, because the truth is that they want to have something to separate themselves from the others.

They want the content to be hard, so only dedicated groups of people with lots of time and effort can do it, and they want the loot to be better so they can show it off in LA or whenever the next people hub will be.

They want to feel superior to others in some way. And the only way to achieve that is via making the rewards better and the content harder. And that’s the truth of it, no matter how much they deny it.

Nobody does hard content for the joy of doing something hard for long, unless you bribe them with rewards that will make them feel unique and better than their fellow man. Simple as that.

Fernling.1729:

I hope raids have rewards that are not higher in stats, but unique in look that are not obtainable anywhere else in game. I think the rewards should be BoP as well to keep the prestige of the items.
I also believe that more challenging content should be more rewarding than less difficult content. If raids are more difficult than waypointing and autoattacking they should reward much more than world bosses. If they are more difficult than stacking in a corner and melting a boss in seconds they should be more rewarding.

The devs have stated that if they add raids, raid gear WILL NOT be stronger then other gear, and they don’t plan on adding higher gear tiers in the first place. Ascended will remain the top.

Chobits.2430:

Maybe someone should come out with a game called “Marxism Online” it will be first of a new series of “Massive Marxist Online” games.

The game’s motto will be “From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs”.

Everyone can just sit around in the game being lazy with no incentive to do anything and they will just get everything for free from the GMs. Everyone will look alike and have exactly the same things. It will be a perfect utopia!

LOL

I have to say I was about to make a similar comment. Well, thank god Anet doesn’t believe in Marxism Online, even if certain people seem to want that. haha.

PorceleinEve.2973:

Nobody does hard content for the joy of doing something hard for long, unless you bribe them with rewards that will make them feel unique and better than their fellow man. Simple as that.

There are absolutely people who do hard content simply for the joy of doing it. Some people find the hard content itself to be fun, and the simple sense of achievement in finally completing it is the only reward they sought from it.
That you think otherwise is simply an indication that you yourself are not one such type of person, and that you aren’t involved with such people.
Nothing wrong with that of course, people enjoy different things. Just don’t for a second think there aren’t people who actually enjoy hard content.
I don’t think of myself as someone particularly “hardcore”, but I’ve certainly gone out of my way to do hard things in games for no other reason then because I thought it was fun.

A small word to those that want exclusive looks as rewards for harder content:

I will not respect you for having these “rare” skins. I will not bow down to you, treat you any better than any other player, or even assume you have actual skill at the game. I do not care if you have the PvP wings, raid-only boots, and the kitten less chaps of WvW domination.

However, if I see you wearing all of the above, I’ll know you’re a clown that can’t dress themselves. That you’re someone shallow enough to think that such things should be important to how people view you. And that you’re someone I’d prefer to avoid, if not outright disrespect.

My respect goes to those that prove themselves to be good people. That know how to make a good looking character. That I’d actually want to be around. THESE are the people that make a good community, rewards don’t do that.

I don’t want overly locked or “high skill only” skins, because that can cut them off from a lot of good players. I want those good players to be happy and stick around. But when such exclusive skins do happen, I don’t cry too much about it. It’s just another indicator on my “worthless player” check-off list.

Arewn.2368:

too much blah blah to quote here. ..

The problem with applying that philosophy too liberally is that
1) if you get everything you want, you have less motivating you to play
2) it destroys the social motivation system which is so important to MMOs. A cool and difficult to acquire skin isn’t just enjoyable for the person who owns it. It also adds to the experience of everyone who sees it in the possession of the person who owns it. It’s an important atmospheric element of any MMO, and a short-sighted “I want it, give” mentality will completely destroy that.

So challenging content is one that needs you focus to play at your best using everything you got on your skill bar…

What’s hard content then? How is it different than challenging cause I didn’t get it.

Finally it’s refreshing to see one of the hard + challening crowd to admit that’s it’s not about anything else than the rewards and the feeling of superiority you’ll get by displaying it to the plebes in LA. I applaud your honesty. If more ppl were like that, we might even get games we enjoy more.

Arewn.2368:

PorceleinEve.2973:

Nobody does hard content for the joy of doing something hard for long, unless you bribe them with rewards that will make them feel unique and better than their fellow man. Simple as that.

There are absolutely people who do hard content simply for the joy of doing it. Some people find the hard content itself to be fun, and the simple sense of achievement in finally completing it is the only reward they sought from it.
That you think otherwise is simply an indication that you yourself are not one such type of person, and that you aren’t involved with such people.
Nothing wrong with that of course, people enjoy different things. Just don’t for a second think there aren’t people who actually enjoy hard content.
I don’t think of myself as someone particularly “hardcore”, but I’ve certainly gone out of my way to do hard things in games for no other reason then because I thought it was fun.

You’re wrong, nobody does hard content for the joy of hard content FOR LONG. I just applauded your honesty, don’t start with the lies now. You want the rewards that come with it, you want to bask in LA’s sun with your shinies and have the ppl marvel at your greatness. Take away the rewards, and you’ll do it once in a blue moon when you’re bored.

Arewn.2368:

I definitely understand wanting something you like to be made readily available to you. The problem with applying that philosophy too liberally is that
1) if you get everything you want, you have less motivating you to play
2) it destroys the social motivation system which is so important to MMOs. A cool and difficult to acquire skin isn’t just enjoyable for the person who owns it. It also adds to the experience of everyone who sees it in the possession of the person who owns it. It’s an important atmospheric element of any MMO, and a short-sighted “I want it, give” mentality will completely destroy that.

This is the main counter-point and everything Arewn has said I agree with completely.

I hate to allude to WoW but their ‘Competitive PvE Content’ despite having the never-ending tier level of gear levels was on another level extremely well-thought out. Raids bestowed a long-lasting end-game that would get added to again and again until the next expansion that reset progression. Guilds would compete not just for World Firsts but for achievements through how they looked, how much stronger they got, and it showed in Town-Hubs. I remember playing back then and getting asked all the time about certain raid pieces of gear I had and I linked it to the inquirers, and rather than get upset some felt ‘impressed’ and wanted to get the content done themselves.

Unique Rewards for challenging content, provided that everyone can ACCESS the content but have to use their own skill and ingenuity to complete will not discourage folks, it gives people something to look forward to and work towards. It is a bit different than Legendary Crafting which is getting a massive overhaul thanks to Precursor crafting coming out which is perfect. And honestly it is something absolutely needed in this game.

Arewn.2368:

The devs have stated that if they add raids, raid gear WILL NOT be stronger then other gear, and they don’t plan on adding higher gear tiers in the first place. Ascended will remain the top.

And then they added legendary backpacks. They’re reliable like that (the devs). Their word is like a binding contract. Well, almost.

Palador.2170:

A small word to those that want exclusive looks as rewards for harder content:

I will not respect you for having these “rare” skins. I will not bow down to you, treat you any better than any other player, or even assume you have actual skill at the game. I do not care if you have the PvP wings, raid-only boots, and the kitten less chaps of WvW domination.

However, if I see you wearing all of the above, I’ll know you’re a clown that can’t dress themselves. That you’re someone shallow enough to think that such things should be important to how people view you. And that you’re someone I’d prefer to avoid, if not outright disrespect.

My respect goes to those that prove themselves to be good people. That know how to make a good looking character. That I’d actually want to be around. THESE are the people that make a good community, rewards don’t do that.

I don’t want overly locked or “high skill only” skins, because that can cut them off from a lot of good players. I want those good players to be happy and stick around. But when such exclusive skins do happen, I don’t cry too much about it. It’s just another indicator on my “worthless player” check-off list.

If only I could make your post my signature…

PorceleinEve.2973:

Arewn.2368:

The devs have stated that if they add raids, raid gear WILL NOT be stronger then other gear, and they don’t plan on adding higher gear tiers in the first place. Ascended will remain the top.

And then they added legendary backpacks. They’re reliable like that (the devs). Their word is like a binding contract. Well, almost.

And? So what? Legendary backpacks are ascended level gear. Ascended, while grindy can be gotten by anyone. I see no problem here. It’s a new shiny skin for people to work towards and it does not give anyone a stat advantage.

xarallei.4279:

PorceleinEve.2973:

Arewn.2368:

The devs have stated that if they add raids, raid gear WILL NOT be stronger then other gear, and they don’t plan on adding higher gear tiers in the first place. Ascended will remain the top.

And then they added legendary backpacks. They’re reliable like that (the devs). Their word is like a binding contract. Well, almost.

And? So what? Legendary backpacks are ascended level gear. Ascended, while grindy can be gotten by anyone. I see no problem here. It’s a new shiny skin for people to work towards and it does not give anyone a stat advantage.

funny that, i though ascended gear had better stats. it doesn’t? hell i crafted all that shi7 for nothing it seems… bleh

And so? You can MAKE ascended backpacks. It’s not like this legendary backpack is the only ascended backpack out there. There is mawdry, there are the spinal blades, there are the dwayna and grenth backpacks. Seriously…

Palador.2170:

My respect goes to those that prove themselves to be good people. That know how to make a good looking character. That I’d actually want to be around. THESE are the people that make a good community, rewards don’t do that.

I don’t want overly locked or “high skill only” skins, because that can cut them off from a lot of good players. I want those good players to be happy and stick around. But when such exclusive skins do happen, I don’t cry too much about it. It’s just another indicator on my “worthless player” check-off list.

You know players that do high skill content can also be very good people. In fact some of the best people are the actual dungeon runners, the good folks who create guides for everyone to make content easier, those who offer something to the entire community by teaching them how to finish specific bits of content, those who theorycraft so you can get the best out of your character. Those are usually the same people who go after challenging content.

A real dungeon runner can come with you if you ask and teach you how to do Arah P4. For free. A real dungeon runner will take your hand and show you how to finish the content in the best/fastest, or most efficient way. You just have to ask them.

The ones that give “hard content” runners a bad name are wannabes. And unfortunately, the easier the game, the more wannabes will appear. The more stale the game, the more wannabes will appear. They are the ones that exclude entire professions, ask for gear and AP checks. The “real” dungeon community does not.

So with hard content comes a whole lot of good players that benefit everyone. The harder/challenging the content, the less wannabe idiots we get.

Please don’t talk like those who like challenging/hard content are bad people. They aren’t and in fact they are the ones in all game modes that promote the community.