Guild Wars 2

Defeating forum bugs

xarallei.4279:

And so? You can MAKE ascended backpacks. It’s not like this legendary backpack is the only ascended backpack out there. There is mawdry, there are the spinal blades, there are the dwayna and grenth backpacks. Seriously…

But you told me just a post above that ascended doesn’t have better stats… I almost felt bad i crafted the kitten ed set.

So it does have better stats after all.

Do legendary items have better stats than ascended? Since the packs will be legendary and all that … it’s gotten me curious.

PorceleinEve.2973:

xarallei.4279:

And so? You can MAKE ascended backpacks. It’s not like this legendary backpack is the only ascended backpack out there. There is mawdry, there are the spinal blades, there are the dwayna and grenth backpacks. Seriously…

But you told me just a post above that ascended doesn’t have better stats… I almost felt bad i crafted the kitten ed set.

So it does have better stats after all.

Do legendary items have better stats than ascended? Since the packs will be legendary and all that … it’s gotten me curious.

On the off chance that you are genuinely confused, I will explain. Ascended gear is the highest stat level in the game. Legendary backpacks are ascended gear. They are NOT a higher level stat gear than ascended. Ascended backpacks are also obtainable in numerous other ways (mawdrey, spinal, grenth, dwayna, not to mention all the fractal ones). Therefore there is no stat advantage given for obtaining the legendary back pack. If there were no other possible way to obtain ascended back pieces except for this legendary that you can only get in pvp or whatever, that would obviously be very wrong and against the spirit of this game. Stat gear should always have numerous ways of being obtained. But that isn’t the case here because you can get yourself an ascended backpiece. It’s only the skin you are missing out on.

PorceleinEve.2973:

xarallei.4279:

PorceleinEve.2973:

Arewn.2368:

The devs have stated that if they add raids, raid gear WILL NOT be stronger then other gear, and they don’t plan on adding higher gear tiers in the first place. Ascended will remain the top.

And then they added legendary backpacks. They’re reliable like that (the devs). Their word is like a binding contract. Well, almost.

And? So what? Legendary backpacks are ascended level gear. Ascended, while grindy can be gotten by anyone. I see no problem here. It’s a new shiny skin for people to work towards and it does not give anyone a stat advantage.

funny that, i though ascended gear had better stats. it doesn’t? hell i crafted all that shi7 for nothing it seems… bleh

Ascended gear doesn’t have worse stats than Legendary they have the exact same stats. You can get Ascended backpacks in many ways.

xarallei.4279:

On the off chance that you are genuinely confused, I will explain. Ascended gear is the highest stat level in the game. Legendary backpacks are ascended gear. They are NOT a higher level stat gear than ascended. Ascended backpacks are also obtainable in numerous other ways (mawdrey, spinal, grenth, dwayna, not to mention all the fractal ones). Therefore there is no stat advantage given for obtaining the legendary back pack. If there were no other possible way to obtain ascended back pieces except for this legendary that you can only get in pvp or whatever, that would obviously be very wrong and against the spirit of this game. Stat gear should always have numerous ways of being obtained. But that isn’t the case here because you can get yourself an ascended backpiece. It’s only the skin you are missing out on.

Really?

Wow I had no idea, I always thought that legendary gear has better stats. It doesn’t?

I’m a totally pro player as you can clearly see.

So the only benefit of the legendary is the free stat changes and the “cool” skin?

and I play this game 3 years almost.

Wanna take a guess who feels like an idiot right now?
not me, I don’t mind ignorance (especially mine, other’s it can get mildly annoying). But thanks for educating me. I keep learning something new every day.

So the skin doesn’t serve any other purpose than to show it off to the plebes. Not sure it’s better or worse than it having stats.

Yes, that’s the purpose of legendaries. The showy skins and the free stat change. That’s why it’s really not a big deal. If it was the only ascended back piece then it would be a very big deal. Believe me, I’m very much for everyone having the chance to have the highest stat gear and I hate the very idea of gear treadmills. I was very opposed to the introduction of ascended gear to begin with. I still don’t like the idea of it, but I’ve come to accept the fact that it’s not going away and while it’s very grindy it’s not particularly hard to get.

This is a very well disguised troll post

PorceleinEve.2973:

So challenging content is one that needs you focus to play at your best using everything you got on your skill bar…

What’s hard content then? How is it different than challenging cause I didn’t get it.

Finally it’s refreshing to see one of the hard + challening crowd to admit that’s it’s not about anything else than the rewards and the feeling of superiority you’ll get by displaying it to the plebes in LA. I applaud your honesty. If more ppl were like that, we might even get games we enjoy more.

You’re completely misrepresenting what I said.
For starters, nowhere did I say or even imply that it requires you to play at your best. Just that it engages you. That the mechanics of the game are actually being put to use in a fulfilling way and engage the player’s mind.

Nor did I “admit” that people are only after rewards. I didn’t even come close to implying such. Rewards are a single facet of this subject, a subject in which there are a multitude of motivators that intermingle to various degrees. Yes, rewards are relevant. No, they are not the be-all end-all. And, in fact, rewards sometimes don’t even come into play as a motivator.
I have, in my time gaming, taken on harder content PURELY because I thought it would be fun to do so. The only reward for my effort was the sense of personal accomplishment that came with completing it. Not to brag, not to show off, not for the loot, not for an in-game achievement, not because someone told me to do it.
I am not generally a “hard-core” gamer. I typically play games on what ever the easiest mode available is. But I do often try harder stuff, just for the fun of it. Turn up the difficulty for a particular campaign map or fight. Throw in an extra enemy in a match. Things like that, just for fun.
And that is by no means something unique to me. People across gaming do this.

You’re wrong, nobody does hard content for the joy of hard content FOR LONG. I just applauded your honesty, don’t start with the lies now. You want the rewards that come with it, you want to bask in LA’s sun with your shinies and have the ppl marvel at your greatness. Take away the rewards, and you’ll do it once in a blue moon when you’re bored.

They do.
I’m sorry you don’t understand that, but they do. Many people do. There are entire games focused around being hard, and people enjoy them for that very aspect.
Monster Hunter games are fairly hard overall, and I love them. Many people love them. But do you think people are in it “for the reward”? In the first place, what “rewards”? the loot? Absolutely not. Gear in that game is important in-so-far as it is a mechanic that allows you to progress. You farm gear not because “I want it, it looks cool, I’m going to show off!”, but because it grants you the power to take on new monsters. Then is it the in-game achievements? not likely, only a few people I’ve run into bother with them, if they even know they’re there. I certainly don’t care for them. To brag, or show off? Perhaps some do, but rarely have I run into such people. And of the several hundred thousand copies of the game that have sold, there certainly aren’t several hundred thousand people going around showing off and bragging about it.
So then why do so many people play it? because the difficulty is an enjoyable aspect of the experience.

Have you ever in your life played a game at a difficulty that is above the easiest? Even just playing a game on normal mode instead of easy?
You don’t do that for better rewards. In most cases the rewards don’t change at all. You do it because you find the increased difficulty to be more engaging and ultimately funner.

Yes, there are absolutely people out there who want challenging content just so that they can be smug and have exclusive rewards. These people do exist. But that doesn’t mean they are the only ones who exist. There can be more then one reason for wanting something. More then one motive for a particular goal.
I’ve clearly outlined how I view challenging content, and why I think it’s important. And I’ve gone into some detail on why I find hard content valuable.
No where has my reason been “so that I can be a smug chump in LA getting off to feelings of superiority over the plebs”.
Sorry, that’s not me. And I would argue that that’s not how most people who want challenging or hard content are either.

Original post is too long, didn’t read, I like hard mode and good rewards for difficult content. Have a nice day, bye.

Sykper.6583:

Unique Rewards for challenging content, provided that everyone can ACCESS the content but have to use their own skill and ingenuity to complete will not discourage folks, it gives people something to look forward to and work towards. It is a bit different than Legendary Crafting which is getting a massive overhaul thanks to Precursor crafting coming out which is perfect. And honestly it is something absolutely needed in this game.

Exactly.
Provided everyone can access the content.
This is a pretty important caveat.

And then they added legendary backpacks. They’re reliable like that (the devs). Their word is like a binding contract. Well, almost.

Legendaries are the exact same strength as ascended. They didn’t go back on their word at all.
edit: nvm, you just didn’t know about it. That’s fine.

Now if you want to bring up them going back on their word you should have just brought up the existence Ascended period. But that’s a whole other can of worms that I don’t think we need to open up here. Anyway, now that they have definitively said that Ascended is the final tier and that they will never have another tier after this….well, I would really like to believe this. I will be holding them to those words.

Unique skins for different game types, i find this only logical. As long as the open world content provides a good amount of skins rewarding exploration and doing events (like the airship parts for example) i see absolutely no problem with pvp, hardcore pve, wvw and more casual pve to have each their own rewards. Rewards aren’t of course the reason we do this type of content, and as someone who raided in Wow for a long time, i can honestly say i felt more joy from killing bosses the first time then actually recieving loot. BUT if there is no fitting reward to it, there will not be enough people to do them.

I honestly do not see the problem, we already have this ingame with dungeons, you have to do the dungeon if you want the skins.

xarallei.4279:

Now if you want to bring up them going back on their word you should have just brought up the existence Ascended period. But that’s a whole other can of worms that I don’t think we need to open up here. Anyway, now that they have definitively said that Ascended is the final tier and that they will never have another tier after this….well, I would really like to believe this. I will be holding them to those words.

Ascended was added 3 months after release. In the nearly 3 years since then they haven’t done anything to indicate they’d add another tier, and have re-affirmed on a few occasions specifically that they won’t.
I think we’re safe.

Fox.3469:

I honestly do not see the problem, we already have this ingame with dungeons, you have to do the dungeon if you want the skins.

And for those who don’t want to they can buy a slot in the end. Unless they change that, making the “unique” skins from challenging content sellable on the TP is pointless.

maddoctor.2738:

You know players that do high skill content can also be very good people.

Ah, but I never said otherwise. My remarks were about those people that want exclusive skins so they can parade them around as some kind of demonstration of self worth.

You see, I don’t mind the idea of harder, optional content. In fact, I welcome it. I may suck at it, but sometimes I get the urge to try something and I may surprise myself when I do. Lots of genuinely good people like harder content.

It’s the exclusive rewards and the people that value them so highly that I feel are the problem.

Palador.2170:

maddoctor.2738:

You know players that do high skill content can also be very good people.

Ah, but I never said otherwise. My remarks were about those people that want exclusive skins so they can parade them around as some kind of demonstration of self worth.

You see, I don’t mind the idea of harder, optional content. In fact, I welcome it. I may suck at it, but sometimes I get the urge to try something and I may surprise myself when I do. Lots of genuinely good people like harder content.

It’s the exclusive rewards and the people that value them so highly that I feel are the problem.

That’s how I feel when I see someone with a Legendary, especially after they made them available on the TP. It’s even worse with items that are no longer available like the molten jetpack or black lion weapon skins that do not exist anymore.

Tequatl got unique rewards, Triple Trouble Wurm got unique rewards, Fractals got unique rewards, PVP got unique rewards, Achievement Points got unique rewards. Living Story S2 had unique rewards. Everything they add has something new and exclusive so it gives more value to the content. DT got new exclusive rewards, SW got unique exclusive rewards, HoT will add new armor and weapon skins probably available only through HoT content. When the “hard content” phrase comes on a thread everyone jumps about the possibility of any “exclusives” from it, but what about any other feature of the game that got exclusive rewards so far?

I don’t think there is any reason to think they won’t add unique rewards to anything new they add, including the Challenging Group Content bit. There WILL be unique rewards in it, that’s how every other bit of content worked so far. The only question is how they will be delivered and if they will be bound on acquire or not.

There WILL be unique rewards coming from Challenging Group Content, there is no question about it. The question is if they will also be exclusive, and even if they are exclusive, dungeon skins are “exclusive” to that dungeon, yet you can get the rewards by buying slots. Would you call the dungeon armor/weapon skins “exclusive”?

Arewn.2368:

No where has my reason been “so that I can be a smug chump in LA getting off to feelings of superiority over the plebs”.
Sorry, that’s not me. And I would argue that that’s not how most people who want challenging or hard content are either.

For something that’s “not you”, you sure bother a lot to defend it. Don’t you…

and you keep conveniently forget the for long bit. oh, and that this is an mmo.

I’ve been a raider for quite some time in wow (in fact, i got burned by it down to a crisp, as it turns out working in real life doesn’t help out with server firsts etc etc) and I can tell you flat out that people who want special skins hidden behind “hard” content want it not for the challenge or the thrill of the hunt, but for the bragging rights and the showing off rights.

If it’s not you, that’s great, I like you more already. But please, don’t try to come in here and tell us that the people who scream speshul skins and hard content in an mmo aren’t. Cause they are, they most definitely are. They want to stand in LA and get asked how did they got that skin and how, they want others to marvell at their awesomeness and that’s all there is to it.

PorceleinEve.2973:

For something that’s “not you”, you sure bother a lot to defend it. Don’t you…

and you keep conveniently forget the for long bit. oh, and that this is an mmo.

I’ve been a raider for quite some time in wow (in fact, i got burned by it down to a crisp, as it turns out working in real life doesn’t help out with server firsts etc etc) and I can tell you flat out that people who want special skins hidden behind “hard” content want it not for the challenge or the thrill of the hunt, but for the bragging rights and the showing off rights.

If it’s not you, that’s great, I like you more already. But please, don’t try to come in here and tell us that the people who scream speshul skins and hard content in an mmo aren’t. Cause they are, they most definitely are. They want to stand in LA and get asked how did they got that skin and how, they want others to marvell at their awesomeness and that’s all there is to it.

I’ve already conceded that there are such people:
“Yes, there are absolutely people out there who want challenging content just so that they can be smug and have exclusive rewards. These people do exist. But that doesn’t mean they are the only ones who exist. There can be more then one reason for wanting something. More then one motive for a particular goal.”

I’ve never pretended those people don’t exist.
I’m highlighting that there are other, perfectly legitimate, reasons for wanting challenging or hard content. And that many people want content like that for these other reasons.

Arewn.2368:

I’ve already conceded that there are such people:
“Yes, there are absolutely people out there who want challenging content just so that they can be smug and have exclusive rewards. These people do exist. But that doesn’t mean they are the only ones who exist. There can be more then one reason for wanting something. More then one motive for a particular goal.”

I’ve never pretended those people don’t exist.
I’m highlighting that there are other, perfectly legitimate, reasons for wanting challenging or hard content. And that many people want content like that for these other reasons.

yes of course there are. they just don’t ask for special skins for it. that’s all. that’s what i’m saying.

btw did you know that legendary gear doesn’t have better stats than ascended? i still can’t believe it (just found out)

This “everyone” gets a reward thing needs to be done away with and i’m glad anet is taking the right steps here

Harder, challenging content deserve better rewards than spamming auto attack in silverwastes and other open world zerg actitives.

Having exclusive rewards tied behind challenging content is perfectly fine, so long as they aren’t overpowered. Titles, skins, etc that are rarest should be tied behind hard content.

If you think the casual that play 2 hours a day deserve the legendary backpiece as much as the guy playing 6 hours a day in PvP leagues, than something is wrong with your logic. You have to earn it.

People who bust their rear deserve better rewards than some guy logging in a couple hours a week.

SkiTz.4590:

This “everyone” gets a reward thing needs to be done away with and i’m glad anet is taking the right steps here

Harder, challenging content deserve better rewards than spamming auto attack in silverwastes and other open world zerg actitives.

Having exclusive rewards tied behind challenging content is perfectly fine, so long as they aren’t overpowered. Titles, skins, etc that are rarest should be tied behind hard content.

If you think the casual that play 2 hours a day deserve the legendary backpiece as much as the guy playing 6 hours a day in PvP leagues, than something is wrong with your logic. You have to earn it.

People who bust their rear deserve better rewards than some guy logging in a couple hours a week.

Very well said. I agree with everything here.

maddoctor.2738:

Fox.3469:

I honestly do not see the problem, we already have this ingame with dungeons, you have to do the dungeon if you want the skins.

And for those who don’t want to they can buy a slot in the end. Unless they change that, making the “unique” skins from challenging content sellable on the TP is pointless.

You do know selling dungeons can get you banned right? It’s against the rules.

Fox.3469:

maddoctor.2738:

Fox.3469:

I honestly do not see the problem, we already have this ingame with dungeons, you have to do the dungeon if you want the skins.

And for those who don’t want to they can buy a slot in the end. Unless they change that, making the “unique” skins from challenging content sellable on the TP is pointless.

You do know selling dungeons can get you banned right? It’s against the rules.

Nope it’s not. Unless you exploit your way through it and get caught by a GM.

Fox.3469:

maddoctor.2738:

Fox.3469:

I honestly do not see the problem, we already have this ingame with dungeons, you have to do the dungeon if you want the skins.

And for those who don’t want to they can buy a slot in the end. Unless they change that, making the “unique” skins from challenging content sellable on the TP is pointless.

You do know selling dungeons can get you banned right? It’s against the rules.

Incorrect. They even said its ok to post on the lfg that you have a dungeon to sell.

Depends, if things are to be as grind intensive as they are now (aka ascended gear) then no i am not interested in hard content, keep it fast and easy to be grinded as it is now.

Fox.3469:

maddoctor.2738:

Fox.3469:

I honestly do not see the problem, we already have this ingame with dungeons, you have to do the dungeon if you want the skins.

And for those who don’t want to they can buy a slot in the end. Unless they change that, making the “unique” skins from challenging content sellable on the TP is pointless.

You do know selling dungeons can get you banned right? It’s against the rules.

That’s stopped exactly nobody.

Every day I look in the LFG there are ALWAYS ppl selling arah dung slots since its easy for some to solo/duo

Even ppl selling lvl 50 frac slots since its easy to duo or trio.

PorceleinEve.2973:

They want to stand in LA and get asked how did they got that skin and how, they want others to marvell at their awesomeness and that’s all there is to it.

And what is wrong with that? This sounds like a personal problem for you and not something that warrants taking away things from others.

If you don’t want to put in the effort to get something, then that’s your choice.

SkiTz.4590:

If you think the casual that play 2 hours a day deserve the legendary backpiece as much as the guy playing 6 hours a day in PvP leagues, than something is wrong with your logic. You have to earn it.

People who bust their rear deserve better rewards than some guy logging in a couple hours a week.

How about the casual that plays 6 hours a day? Does s/he deserve the legendary backpiece as much as the person playing 6 hours a day in PvP leagues? Let’s compare like with like here. Is your time more worthy of reward than mine? If so, why?

Palador.2170:

Klocknov.8219:

Remember the first question after creating content that has to be answered in most all game design is “Does this content offer appropriate or proportional rewards to effort and time spent?”

Wow. That is so very, very wrong. Not saying you’re wrong, just the statement is.

The first question should always be “Is this fun?” If rewards are the main reason you’re doing content, and not because you enjoy that content, then maybe there’s something wrong.

That is a question during creating and should be on the drawing board from the very beginning, if the content you are creating can not fit that question you have to re-design it. I am talking about after it is designed and you look at the completed product, you have already deemed that it is fun by then because you have completed it. Thus it is the first question asked after creating content, since you already have it all there and now you have to fiddle with making it feel rewarding as well as fun.

While I agree that the new system is there for a good reason, the old system of getting unique items to sell on the TP should still be there as well, remember that everyone plays for different content for different reasons, I want challenging rewarding content, and generlly that either means it has a much higher chance for unique skins for the said content or unique skins geared towards the challenging content. Otherwise you will burn the players out quickly that want the challenging content when there is no rewards to go for so they do it till they get the achievements and they are done, sort of how minus a few specialty grips TA:Aetherblade is pretty much the least run harder content in the game. Has chance to drop unique skins but such a low chance that they compare with pre-cursors and gemstore weapons in pricing. The content was fun, but just did not have longevity due to lacking reward appropriate to the content.

binidj.5734:

SkiTz.4590:

If you think the casual that play 2 hours a day deserve the legendary backpiece as much as the guy playing 6 hours a day in PvP leagues, than something is wrong with your logic. You have to earn it.

People who bust their rear deserve better rewards than some guy logging in a couple hours a week.

How about the casual that plays 6 hours a day? Does s/he deserve the legendary backpiece as much as the person playing 6 hours a day in PvP leagues? Let’s compare like with like here. Is your time more worthy of reward than mine? If so, why?

6 hours a day doing what? SW chest training? World champ training? RP’ing in the Black Citadel? Harvesting nodes? Killing random over world mobs?

binidj.5734:

SkiTz.4590:

If you think the casual that play 2 hours a day deserve the legendary backpiece as much as the guy playing 6 hours a day in PvP leagues, than something is wrong with your logic. You have to earn it.

People who bust their rear deserve better rewards than some guy logging in a couple hours a week.

How about the casual that plays 6 hours a day? Does s/he deserve the legendary backpiece as much as the person playing 6 hours a day in PvP leagues? Let’s compare like with like here. Is your time more worthy of reward than mine? If so, why?

You realize 6 hours of doing PvE is already VASTLY more rewarding (materialistically speaking) than 6 hours of PvP

If you WANT the PvP legendary backpeice, you bust your butt off in PvP. That’s how it is. You already have plenty of access to legendaries in PvE…What’s wrong with PvP getting an exclusive one? If you want one, you are more than welcome to go into PvP..

Exactly. It’s really mind boggling. This game has many exclusive skins. If you want sunless skins you must do teq, if you want regurgitated armor you must do TT, if you want fractal skins you must do fractals, etc. If a pvper wants those things they must go into pve. Fractals are now getting their own legendary, pvp will get it’s own legendary. Most likely there will be some sort of normal PVE legendary back piece too. So what is the problem exactly? Because you can’t get every single skin out there? If you want it, you must make the effort to get it. Like I said, the legendary pvp back is great and I’d love to have it but I’m not so great at pvp. So I probably will never get it. And that is OK. Because the best pvpers deserve something for their efforts.

and some people don’t like to wear deodorant

. . . doesn’t mean the majority of people should suddenly let the funk fly

Nothing about GW2 is hard, everything you consider “hard” is just something that takes a lot of effort and/or time. nothing actually is difficult to get.

binidj.5734:

SkiTz.4590:

If you think the casual that play 2 hours a day deserve the legendary backpiece as much as the guy playing 6 hours a day in PvP leagues, than something is wrong with your logic. You have to earn it.

People who bust their rear deserve better rewards than some guy logging in a couple hours a week.

How about the casual that plays 6 hours a day? Does s/he deserve the legendary backpiece as much as the person playing 6 hours a day in PvP leagues? Let’s compare like with like here. Is your time more worthy of reward than mine? If so, why?

The fact you use casual and six hours a day in the same line… You clearly have no idea what casually playing a game while having a job means. Skins may be gated but A-Net will never gate power, wich is why i love this game.

Fox.3469:

binidj.5734:

SkiTz.4590:

If you think the casual that play 2 hours a day deserve the legendary backpiece as much as the guy playing 6 hours a day in PvP leagues, than something is wrong with your logic. You have to earn it.

People who bust their rear deserve better rewards than some guy logging in a couple hours a week.

How about the casual that plays 6 hours a day? Does s/he deserve the legendary backpiece as much as the person playing 6 hours a day in PvP leagues? Let’s compare like with like here. Is your time more worthy of reward than mine? If so, why?

The fact you use casual and six hours a day in the same line… You clearly have no idea what casually playing a game while having a job means. Skins may be gated but A-Net will never gate power, wich is why i love this game.

There are in fact, many “hard-core” casuals. I’m one of them. I play more than 6 hours a day, every day since launch, and I still consider myself casual, in that my style of play is casual. I’m not particularly looking for challenging content (though I’ve done everything but Liadri).

The problem with challenging content for me is that I live in Tasmania and many people live in places where their ping/lag is quite high. Which means that Liadri is harder for me than it is for someone in the US with good point, but we get the same reward for it.

A lot of people are playing this game on potatos. I’m not but I still live far enough away that I have an unfair disadvantage. So yeah, competitive stuff for me is annoying at best, because even if I’m equal in skill to someone with lower ping, I’m likely to lose a fight.

So if a reward, like the Liadri mini, is offered for something I can’t do, and at this time I can’t do Sanctum Sprint at all, because one of the skills you need to lightning jump to a tower always throws me over the tower…it’s just not all that fair in the first place.

So if there are things I want, it’s not always possible to get them no matter how hard I work…unless you’re suggesting I sell the house and move my family to the US. Which would be a bit overkill for a mini. lol

Palador.2170:

A small word to those that want exclusive looks as rewards for harder content:

I will not respect you for having these “rare” skins. I will not bow down to you, treat you any better than any other player, or even assume you have actual skill at the game. I do not care if you have the PvP wings, raid-only boots, and the kitten less chaps of WvW domination.

However, if I see you wearing all of the above, I’ll know you’re a clown that can’t dress themselves. That you’re someone shallow enough to think that such things should be important to how people view you. And that you’re someone I’d prefer to avoid, if not outright disrespect.

My respect goes to those that prove themselves to be good people. That know how to make a good looking character. That I’d actually want to be around. THESE are the people that make a good community, rewards don’t do that.

I don’t want overly locked or “high skill only” skins, because that can cut them off from a lot of good players. I want those good players to be happy and stick around. But when such exclusive skins do happen, I don’t cry too much about it. It’s just another indicator on my “worthless player” check-off list.

Lol since you don’t actually know these people, to judge them poorly based on things they have actually accomplished…only makes you look like you would be the one not worthy of respect.

Ohoni.6057:

If you want harder content because you want access to rewards that most players can’t have, then that’s just being a selfish jerk, and I very much hope that ANet does not indulge you in that.

If you want the same rewards as someone who puts in WAY more effort, skill & time than you do, you’re being a lazy selfish jerk.

The whole “lazy/bad players deserve just as much as the great/hardworking players” is just scary. I don’t much care for hardcore content, but I sure as heck don’t delude myself by thinking all rewards for all activities should be equal.

ODB.6891:

Palador.2170:

A small word to those that want exclusive looks as rewards for harder content:

I will not respect you for having these “rare” skins. I will not bow down to you, treat you any better than any other player, or even assume you have actual skill at the game. I do not care if you have the PvP wings, raid-only boots, and the kitten less chaps of WvW domination.

However, if I see you wearing all of the above, I’ll know you’re a clown that can’t dress themselves. That you’re someone shallow enough to think that such things should be important to how people view you. And that you’re someone I’d prefer to avoid, if not outright disrespect.

My respect goes to those that prove themselves to be good people. That know how to make a good looking character. That I’d actually want to be around. THESE are the people that make a good community, rewards don’t do that.

I don’t want overly locked or “high skill only” skins, because that can cut them off from a lot of good players. I want those good players to be happy and stick around. But when such exclusive skins do happen, I don’t cry too much about it. It’s just another indicator on my “worthless player” check-off list.

Lol since you don’t actually know these people, to judge them poorly based on things they have actually accomplished…only makes you look like you would be the one not worthy of respect.

Agreed. Palador’s entire post was very ironic.

Vayne.8563:

Fox.3469:

binidj.5734:

SkiTz.4590:

If you think the casual that play 2 hours a day deserve the legendary backpiece as much as the guy playing 6 hours a day in PvP leagues, than something is wrong with your logic. You have to earn it.

People who bust their rear deserve better rewards than some guy logging in a couple hours a week.

How about the casual that plays 6 hours a day? Does s/he deserve the legendary backpiece as much as the person playing 6 hours a day in PvP leagues? Let’s compare like with like here. Is your time more worthy of reward than mine? If so, why?

The fact you use casual and six hours a day in the same line… You clearly have no idea what casually playing a game while having a job means. Skins may be gated but A-Net will never gate power, wich is why i love this game.

There are in fact, many “hard-core” casuals. I’m one of them. I play more than 6 hours a day, every day since launch, and I still consider myself casual, in that my style of play is casual. I’m not particularly looking for challenging content (though I’ve done everything but Liadri).

The problem with challenging content for me is that I live in Tasmania and many people live in places where their ping/lag is quite high. Which means that Liadri is harder for me than it is for someone in the US with good point, but we get the same reward for it.

A lot of people are playing this game on potatos. I’m not but I still live far enough away that I have an unfair disadvantage. So yeah, competitive stuff for me is annoying at best, because even if I’m equal in skill to someone with lower ping, I’m likely to lose a fight.

So if a reward, like the Liadri mini, is offered for something I can’t do, and at this time I can’t do Sanctum Sprint at all, because one of the skills you need to lightning jump to a tower always throws me over the tower…it’s just not all that fair in the first place.

So if there are things I want, it’s not always possible to get them no matter how hard I work…unless you’re suggesting I sell the house and move my family to the US. Which would be a bit overkill for a mini. lol

In this logic A-Net should just shut down the game cause people who don’t have internet connection can’t get any rewards. While i do understand your problem, and i’m sorry for you, you cannot possibly expect the reward system to be based on your personal connection.

Here’s the thing, there are some things you can’t do, to bad for you, but that doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be rewards for people that can, as for unique skins, bohoo you’ll miss a few, i miss a few to, from the 1 year i was moving constantly and didn’t have time to play GW2 due to personal stuff. But i don’t think for one second that my personal situation should affect others enjoyment of the game. And the simple fact is, if you don’t tie some unique rewards to hard and challenging content, you’ll loose many people’s attention for it. In any other mmo these people would have better stats then you, and that would be horrible, but in this one, the only thing achievable is visual updates, and if you can’t accept that some people will have acces to skins you don’t, then quite frankly you should stop playing.

Mmo’s have always worked like this, in fact GW2 has even worked like this. So why all the drama all of a sudden? Prestige has always been a part of whatever online game, cause people like to show off what they have done. There isn’t anything wrong with that. I’m sure there will be tons of skins that you can get outside of these hardcore options, as is quite obvious seeing the number of skins already available. If you really want a skin, you can always try for it, i personally really want the pvp backpiece but i won’t ever reach that level, it’s a bit sad to me, but i understand it. If it’s really your internet connection keeping you down, then i’m sorry for you, but that is an issue at your end, even tough it possibly can’t be helped. Tough luck.

You can’t always get everything you want, buying the game does not entitle you to have loot trown at you.

The big concern with difficulty at the moment is diversity. There are a lot of mechanics in this game that aren’t taken advantage of in PVE simply because the game is too easy.

Take cripple, for example. In PVP, cripple is good for covering conditions, chasing people down, or running away from people. In PVE, cripple isn’t good, because there’s nothing to chase, run from, or an enemy with condi cleanses that would make covering conditions meaningful.

So, to make cripple useful, you’d need enemies who do those things. By default, enemies who run away/ cleanse condis/ need you to run away from them are going to be harder than the generic tank and spank baddies we have now.

+1 to the creator of the thread.
He said exactly what i think and what i want. i dont want this game that i love transform into a frustrating game that only can be played with 150 trained people at the same time or staying on X ip for 2 hours, etc etc. I want a casual game, where i can enjoy and play at its full with just 1-2 hours per day, like GW2 has always been.

Silicato.4603:

+1 to the creator of the thread.
He said exactly what i think and what i want. i dont want this game that i love transform into a frustrating game that only can be played with 150 trained people at the same time or staying on X ip for 2 hours, etc etc. I want a casual game, where i can enjoy and play at its full with just 1-2 hours per day, like GW2 has always been.

A) Challenging Group Content doesn’t mean “insanely long content”. There can be challenge without taking many hours (unless we count wipes), in fact that’s the best kind of challenge

B) I miss the point where any kind of content like this is mandatory. More types of content for more types of players = win isn’kitten

Vayne.8563:

People are fond of comparing this game to Guild Wars 1. There was very little in Guild Wars 1 that couldn’t be purchased with gold. Arguably, the hardest weapons to attain were the weapons from DOA, or maybe rare stuff like the celestial compass, the bonecage scythe, the frog scepter or the voltaic spear.

All these high end items were available to sell. You didn’t have to be great to get them. You could farm feathers in a low end zone over and over till you could afford to purchase them.

No one in Guild Wars 1 seemed that riled that their rewards weren’t exclusive. It allowed players who wanted challenge to do challenging content and profit. It allowed less intense players to have the rewards.

I think this is the best solution all the way around.

To those who support those hard core rewards, I guarantee you if there are enough rewards casual players can’t get, you won’t have enough players left to continue running the game. Casuals, in my opinion, make a vast percentage of the playerbase. The more you put out of their reach, the more of them you lose.

the more you put out of their reach, the more you lose. This is incorrect. Casual people are not invested enough to leave because they dont have the time to get one item.
a casual basketball player isnt going to stop playing basketball because he cant get endorsement deals.
in 95% of everything in the world, 95% of people approach it casually. Usually the rewards or best benefits are completely out of reach from those 95% of people. And yet they still do them everyday.

music
writing
business
weight lifting
romance
a better question is what do you get the best results from for minimal effort?

Basically any reward should be closely balanced against effort. As long as people feel whatever they did is worth the effort they put in, then they will do what they most enjoy.

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

Raif.9507:

Make the items attainable only through hard content but allow sale of them. Problem solved.

The same problem that exists with nearly everything else in the game, is also here. That is, why do the content if I can just do the best farm and buy it?

Well, that depends entirely on what you’re after. If you’re after rewards, then obviously you will try to get them the easier way. Most people asking for hardcore content however claim, that what they are after is not rewards, but challenge. In that case they should do the content for challenge it offers.

So, basically this:

Klocknov.8219:

Klocknov.8219:

Remember the first question after creating content that has to be answered in most all game design is “Does this content offer appropriate or proportional rewards to effort and time spent?”

Wow. That is so very, very wrong. Not saying you’re wrong, just the statement is.

The first question should always be “Is this fun?” If rewards are the main reason you’re doing content, and not because you enjoy that content, then maybe there’s something wrong.

Hard mode should never exist just as a means to separate the “elite players” from “filthy casuals”. Certainly not in the game like GW2.

hard mode should exist as a further challenge with a balanced benefit. It basically adds more depth to things.

does the NBA exist to sepeate your dad from lebron james?
do Art museums exist to separate 5 year old sarah from picaso?
do gyms exist to separate you from arnold schartzenegger?

greater benefit for greater skill/investment is actually the most natural and well balanced thing. In fact i would say they real problems generally arise when people can no longer benefit for their effort/skill. Thats the point in which most people stop doing things.

binidj.5734:

maddoctor.2738:

The same problem that exists with nearly everything else in the game, is also here. That is, why do the content if I can just do the best farm and buy it?

Because apparently more challenging content is more fun for a number of people (or so we are told, quite forcefully, on other threads) so wouldn’t you do content because it’s fun? Why on earth would somebody deliberately give themselves a less fun experience if there were no difference in reward between the more and less fun options?

Either the “more challenging content” crowd actually mean that they want more/better loot; or they find challenging game play a reward in itself. It’d be nice if people were a bit more honest about which of those options is true.

because humans are not simply all one thing or all another thing.
Just because something is more fun, doesnt mean they will do it. humans also generally balance effeciency as well.

most people wont work a minimum wage job over a job that pays four times as much even if its way more fun.

also challenge isnt just about fun, its also about depth. The most entertaining things either have to have a lot of breadth or a lot of depth, or both. Otherwise they are quickly consumed and discarded.

Silicato.4603:

+1 to the creator of the thread.
He said exactly what i think and what i want. i dont want this game that i love transform into a frustrating game that only can be played with 150 trained people at the same time or staying on X ip for 2 hours, etc etc. I want a casual game, where i can enjoy and play at its full with just 1-2 hours per day, like GW2 has always been.

the author isnt talking about the overall way the game is played. The author only cares about the reward balance between different types of content.

also what you are refering to is not about challenge, its about barrier to entry.

A sport wouldnt be considered challenging just because you have to wait on line for 2 days with 40 of your friends.

Ohoni.6057:

If you want more challenging content because you enjoy a challenge, then I hope ANet lives up to your expectations. If you want harder content because you want access to rewards that most players can’t have, then that’s just being a selfish jerk, and I very much hope that ANet does not indulge you in that.

MMOs are reward-driven. Hard or hardcore content has very little staying power by itself because the “hard” doesn’t stay hard for very long.
Let’s say you have a very hard dungeon or elite area:
You do it once – it’s hard. You do it twice – it’s still hard but you’re having an easier time compared to the first time.
Let’s say you do it 2-3-4 more times – it doesn’t stay hard anymore does it?
By playing it yourself and by playing it with other people who’ve also done it a few times the content gets easy – because you know what and when to expect – because you’re familiar with the bosses and engagements. You know what to bring and when.

So then why do it anymore? You did it originally because you liked hard content but the content isn’t hard anymore.

If this situation was the norm then hardcore and hard content would be an immense waste of developer time because it could take a very very long time to develop, balance and implement only to give players very little play time and keep them engaged for only the shortest period.

You can’t really afford to do that as a developer – so you give people more incentive to do the content on top of it being originally hard – you give them unique rewards.
Not better rewards, not gear grind-like rewards – but more flashy skins to show what they’ve earned and accomplished.
In a cosmetically driven game it’s almost a win-win – you get to motivate your players and extend content viability without creating economic imbalance.

The most important factor is that there should not be a reward gap between the two varieties of play. Just because a player is not interested or capable of hard mode does not mean that he is less deserving of a cool looking skin or useful piece of gear.

But this also means that a really good player has no merits to be rewarded a cool and unique skin based on his abilities and efforts – which I can’t agree with.
Good play should be rewarded – if unique skins are given to those who play better and engage in more difficult, challenging and complex encounters then this should serve as incentive for other players to strive to get better and get the rewards themselves.

GW2 is casual in its focus – I doubt you’ll have WoW-like raids where you simply can’t get some gear if you’re casual and that’s that.
Let’s not forget Anet might give us harder content but their all-inclusive view where everyone should be able to do everything with a little effort hasn’t really gone away.

The middle ground between my view and yours is a sort of token-system.
You do the really hardcore content and succeed – you get let’s say 5 tokens (per day).
You don’t do the really hardcore content – or maybe you do and fail you get 1 token (per day) or maybe you do some things associated to that content or other content that give you that one token.

Let’s say a skin is worth 100 tokens – hardcore players will have their skins quickly and more casual players will still be able to get them (they aren’t 100% gated out) provided they stick with it and are really determined to get that skin.

maddoctor.2738:

Palador.2170:

maddoctor.2738:

You know players that do high skill content can also be very good people.

Ah, but I never said otherwise. My remarks were about those people that want exclusive skins so they can parade them around as some kind of demonstration of self worth.

You see, I don’t mind the idea of harder, optional content. In fact, I welcome it. I may suck at it, but sometimes I get the urge to try something and I may surprise myself when I do. Lots of genuinely good people like harder content.

It’s the exclusive rewards and the people that value them so highly that I feel are the problem.

That’s how I feel when I see someone with a Legendary, especially after they made them available on the TP. It’s even worse with items that are no longer available like the molten jetpack or black lion weapon skins that do not exist anymore.

Tequatl got unique rewards, Triple Trouble Wurm got unique rewards, Fractals got unique rewards, PVP got unique rewards, Achievement Points got unique rewards. Living Story S2 had unique rewards. Everything they add has something new and exclusive so it gives more value to the content. DT got new exclusive rewards, SW got unique exclusive rewards, HoT will add new armor and weapon skins probably available only through HoT content. When the “hard content” phrase comes on a thread everyone jumps about the possibility of any “exclusives” from it, but what about any other feature of the game that got exclusive rewards so far?

I don’t think there is any reason to think they won’t add unique rewards to anything new they add, including the Challenging Group Content bit. There WILL be unique rewards in it, that’s how every other bit of content worked so far. The only question is how they will be delivered and if they will be bound on acquire or not.

There WILL be unique rewards coming from Challenging Group Content, there is no question about it. The question is if they will also be exclusive, and even if they are exclusive, dungeon skins are “exclusive” to that dungeon, yet you can get the rewards by buying slots. Would you call the dungeon armor/weapon skins “exclusive”?

This however is also pretty accurate – they already have unique skins for unique events/ types of content so with a precedent in place I don’t really see unique rewards tied to hardcore content not coming with HoT. Which IMO is a good thing.

binidj.5734:

maddoctor.2738:

The same problem that exists with nearly everything else in the game, is also here. That is, why do the content if I can just do the best farm and buy it?

Because apparently more challenging content is more fun for a number of people (or so we are told, quite forcefully, on other threads) so wouldn’t you do content because it’s fun? Why on earth would somebody deliberately give themselves a less fun experience if there were no difference in reward between the more and less fun options?

Either the “more challenging content” crowd actually mean that they want more/better loot; or they find challenging game play a reward in itself. It’d be nice if people were a bit more honest about which of those options is true.

Both:

• First: I will put your argument to an extreme, with the end finality of seen how it behave in reality:

Theres people that do “things” only for FUN, this result in that this people when they do this “things” dont need rewards, the FUN its enough, in other words:

FUN >= COST, been COST a function of effort, risk and time. Taking in account that normally people its risk adverse, meaning that risks requires more compensation that what a linear formula shows (also risks normally are reduced with repetition, but to secure repetition its important that the compensation considerate the value of the estimated first completition risk.

This sounds good, but in the practice most people dont repeat content that doesnt have rewards and feel “empty and/or not realeased” when they for example kill a world boss and dont get nothing.

• Second:

This put as in 2 situations:

Why they feel “empty and/or not realesed” (1) and repetition (2).

I will start with (2) and went over it later after elaborating (1).

(2): The fun factor and reward of doing the nearly exactly same task, adventure, dungeon , etc.will be generally lower every repetition, this in economics terminology its a representation of Decreasing Marginal Utility.

This means that the more we push over a content, the less FUN (it can even become negative), so for people keep doing it , there needs to be something for them and generally this need to be bigger or equal (explaining why equal not later) than the COST of the task.

So for the sake of maintaning content vigent and as such the game with population:

REWARD >= COST, even with the general formula of the player winning its:

FUN (function of repetitions of completing the content) + reward >= COST.

I will call FUN + REWARD: UTILITY, in other words: UTILITY= FUN + REWARD.

(1) Why people generally can feel “empty and/not realesed” when they finish content:

- The first explanation its:

FUN isnt bigger than COST so they need to add rewards -> Its this really viable in a game to produce this as a base, without repetition? (writing more about this later).

- The second explanation its:

Representation: Theres phicologically a difference between intangible representations of something and physical ones. We tend to prefer the second ones, in other words instead of just the “FUN” a reward that can be more concret make it more preferable and enjoyable, meaning we want the reward, not only for been a reward, but for been a physical manifestation of the “FUN I got”.

- The third explanation is:

Character “development”: when i get gold, items, titles, etc, my character its growing, its stronger or financially more powerfull, etc.

Agregate the need for representations of this "growth"and you will get why its not enough the having completed the quest, finished that alredy, etc. but having a more in game “touchable, or visualizable” manifestation of it.

- The forth explanation its:

We are very well used to get rewards after completing tasks like quests, etc. This is something that becomes an habit and the kind of habit that becomes a “part of the”, in other words a necessity.

So it means that when I get a reward from a boss im not only getting “Utility” for the reward value but im also completing my ritual for getting the value of the “FUN”.

- Fifth explanation:

We are social individual and in some cases people need to “validate with their pairs”, this means we need to expose what we do, get, growth and the “FUN we have” (at least some of us do this, this have even more context in an MMO since its not a singleplayer game- and even now they have account scores for XBOX live, etc).

If you add this to the habit that becomes a “part of the” I described before, you will get that having the capability to “show it to your pairs” (pairs can change from been only friends, to guildies or “everyone”) can be a requisite to enjoy “get the FUN” of the experience or complete it.

I personally will go for a combination of all of this explanations, in a flexible way: depending of the person or the context you get at least one of them.

Also we can “soft” some of the FUN needs this to be FUN, with two points:

FUN its generated not only at the end of the process of completing content, but in the procces also, still the FUN of the finalization of the content have a big realization factor that make it a biger component of the “FUN” of the content.

This means only a part of the FUN its subject to be ruined or semi ruined if theres not a fulfillment of the condition (like the rituals fro the FUN condition).

Perphaps some times this “not fulfillment” can be more negative than the”FUN of realization” , like reading a novel that its nice, but with an horribly poor ending that destroy a big part of the experience.

This doesn’t make the explanations that get affected by this “soft argument”, wrong, just their importance, meaning they reduce the FUN if not fulfilled (witch its more realistic), but not make it cero necessarily.

This last part means that FUN its divided in two parts: Fun made in the process of doing the content and FUN made at completing the content.

FUN = FUN made in the process + FUN of realization.

And the FUN of realization it’s the one that depends on the fulfillment of the “ritual conditions”.

FUN of realization= Fun of the realization for finishing the content multiplicated for (1+ the SUMATORY of “AiBj”

Been this sumatory the equivalent of the impact in FUN of the realization of not realization of each of the “ritual conditions”. Been Bj a set of variables witch represent the existence or not of a ritual condition j, been j 1 value and an specific ritual condition from 1 to x. And adopting values of “0” or “1”, been 0 the fulfillment of the ritual condition and 1 the none fulfillment of it.

A for the other part it’s the impact over the fun, witch change from ritual to ritual, A its negative or cero and can be menor of -1, -1 meaning the none fulfillment sensation was bigger than the FUN of realization it was expected and cero that either there wasn’t a ritual condition or the person was enough flexible in mind to not fill anything from the none completition of the ritual condition.

With the variable “B” for the fulfillment of a ritual condition we could make it go from cero to 1 instead of just cero or 1. This could represent the grade of fulfillment of the ritual condition.

• Third: (an aclaration and going out of the answer to the argument quoted)
  The importance of FUN over rewards (a reason why just having heavy rewards in boring and unfunny content its not enough).

Basically its is a reality check that involve all content in game or a part of it depending on the level of decision making of the people: the rewards are used for the character, if I don’t have FUN with this content or this game, why do I do it?, if Theresa social value or a ritual condition or the person its addict to gaming or the game, the difficulty to take a ”im not doing this, playing this” requires levels of unfun, but generally this means the FUN of the content cant be cero and since and since theres a logging cost, it need to be mayor to cero.

This means that what for a group of players its boring, cant be fixed with rewards, it will drive them out, meaning this population really need content that its not boring for them and as such people that get bored to kill your normal vainilla mob, need tmore challenging ones and he rewards to secure repetition and fun, as any other activity, but with the proportion necessary for them.

• Forth:
  The FUN value of challenge and its importance, and also why we are in need for it:
  The more you long for something, the more the realization it gives, even more can be noticed if theres phases or scales to get for it, since it scale/phase gives a realization of their own.

The more menaningfull (witch means in most cases not super repetitive and grindy) the process taks to realizate the content, the more realization you get for completing it.
This realization have also decremental marginal utility, but its and add that with the increase of FUN, increase repetition (use it in the formula already exposed) and more repetition = more player retention.

Its important to understand that “challenge” its subjective to each individual and for they to get over the content and reach realization, the requires must not frustrate them and not be beyond their capacities.

And example:

With Liandri after coming back from my dentist I got easily my mini, but one of my teammates, didn’t have the level for it, it cost him over two weeks of 1 to 2 hours tries to get his (high level of resistence to frustration, generally gamers have low levels of it), the realization for him was HUGE.

• Fifth:
  In a MMO context this means that we need several levels of challenge with their apropiate rewards, this have a special synergy when a requirement, such as a certain level of mastery over a class its base or part of a requisite to another step of challenge content, meaning that as long as the process don’t frustrate you and you can have that level, you are up to the next level of challenging content, meaning each level of difficulty it’s a step for you to get the last one (phase, steps of realizations, huge ones!).

Its important to note that for not making the process long and boring (and even unfun) for certain individuals, all levels need to be unlocked since the start, allowing people to chose according to their levels . Others get more value unlocking this levels, its a debate in general.

• Conclusions:

- Challenging content needs to have appropriate rewards for repetitions sake and for generally allowing the fulfillment of all the FUN.

- The emotional value of completing and mastering challenging content generate more repetition and as such player retention.

- Having different levels of content make the game give more objectives and increment the access to the emotional realizations, plus can give some players, more scaled emotional realization content, meaning all of this more repetition value and as such more player retention.

Pd: English isn’t my main language and its late, Long life GW2! Long life the Charr! And death to the humans! Xd.

[quote=5374133;Ohoni.6057:]

Ohoni.6057:

nonsense

This is getting beyond ridiculous. I guess anet should fly you to WTS and give you $ 50K because everyone should have access to the good rewards no matter how skilled they are nor what they do in-game.
Since nothing gets better than a paid trip and cash money, all players should get those even if they have never been to pvp and all they do is afk in LA or chop trees in Timberline Falls.