Guild Wars 2

Ashen.2907:

Daddicus.6128:

Harper.4173:

And this was never officially stated either.

What they did say was that their game would be unique in some ways – no gear grind, being rewarded for all areas of play, etc.

You forgot “the friendliest community in gaming”. Oh, but that would have destroyed your point.

The community is pretty god but not at all the friendliest Ive encountered. Self proclaimed accolades are kind of cheezy IMO. Worlds greatest dad t-shirts come to mind.

Also one would wonder what player friendliness has to do with the game’s difficulty.

Harper.4173:

Tigaseye.2047:

I agree with you, to an extent.

I hated the Zerker skip>stack>melee bs in dungeons.

It felt empty, soulless and extremely boring.

You were told that it was optional and that you could avoid groups that did that.

But even groups that didn’t state they were speedrunners, often actually were (at least to an extent), or were teaching speedrunning to newbies.

So, this new content suits me better in some ways – although, the Zerker meta is still prevalent in the raids…

But, what I’m concerned about, here, is not the cheesers of GW2 losing some of their cheese; especially, as they still have, at least somewhat, cheesy raids to “enjoy”.

It is the people who, genuinely, needed the game to be less challenging, for some reason.

Maybe they can’t play much, or have disabilities that affect how they can play and/or for how long, in one stretch, or whatever.

Or maybe they can, physically, play it, but they find it stressful and that stress affects them negatively.

I’m just concerned that they may have paid a lot for an xpac that they really can’t enjoy much of, at all.

Are you telling me that people were forcing others to speedrun? When everyone was free to make their own group with their own rules that they wanted?

Also the zerker meta is dead – no longer is it optimal for all party members to be zerker – certain roles are now required. Stop misleading people.

A glass meta will always be the norm – if people consider that zerker meta = glass meta then yes – the “zerker” ( glass) meta is here and will be here forever.

Nobody likes to take more time than they have to.

I’m not “telling” you anything, Harper.

I’m (clearly) saying, to the person I answered and to people in general, that some groups were actually speedruns, or teaching speedrunning, even though they didn’t advertise themselves as that.

I was in several “everyone welcome” groups that turned out to be speedrun teaching groups.

When, all I (and everyone else in the group) wanted, was a regular, fun (yes, I know fun is subjective, Harper – you have mentioned that a few dozen times, already…), anything goes group.

I, also, never said it was the only “meta” in raids – just, still, one of them.

I did say we should just ignore each other, because our conversations are pointless.

Plus, this is all old news and nothing I haven’t said already, anyway – as you well know.

Assuming you have a memory.

Harper.4173:

They advertised the friendliest community before the game launch? I didn’t see that posted anywhere.
In fact – it was a horn they started tooting about 1 year after GW2’s release.

Guess you should have followed the game pre-launch better buddy.

Where did I say anything about before game launch? They touted it after launch as a way to draw more people in. And, they claimed the reason was because they designed the game that way. (Both of which were true, IMO, but that’s a different debate.)

Harper.4173:

Also one would wonder what player friendliness has to do with the game’s difficulty.

When the game is more difficult, people ask more questions. If the people there don’t reply (because they’re not friendly enough), then that affects the difficulty even more. When other people turn off chat because nobody is helping anyhow, that makes it even more difficult.

So, yeah, it affects difficulty quite a bit.

Daddicus.6128:

Harper.4173:

Also one would wonder what player friendliness has to do with the game’s difficulty.

When the game is more difficult, people ask more questions. If the people there don’t reply (because they’re not friendly enough), then that affects the difficulty even more. When other people turn off chat because nobody is helping anyhow, that makes it even more difficult.

So, yeah, it affects difficulty quite a bit.

…..What? Is that even an argument?

If my microwave doesn’t work, I can’t cook food. If I can’t cook food, I’ll die!
( as if I would not consider any other tool that I could easily cook with)

Harper.4173:

Ashen.2907:

Daddicus.6128:

Harper.4173:

And this was never officially stated either.

What they did say was that their game would be unique in some ways – no gear grind, being rewarded for all areas of play, etc.

You forgot “the friendliest community in gaming”. Oh, but that would have destroyed your point.

The community is pretty good but not at all the friendliest Ive encountered. Self proclaimed accolades are kind of cheezy IMO. Worlds greatest dad t-shirts come to mind.

Also one would wonder what player friendliness has to do with the game’s difficulty.

Difficulty in accomplishing one’s goals can lead to frustration. Frustration can lead to unfriendly behavior.

Then again a lack of enjoyment to be gained from a game activity due to a lack of challenge can lead to frustration, which in turn can lead to unfriendly behavior.

Its one of those can’t win for losing situations. No matter what Anet does it will upset someone and someone who is upset is more likely to act in an unfriendly manner.

Daddicus.6128:

Tommyknocker.6089:

Well many don’t post here as they are seldom replied to by anyone in power. That being said, Reddit lost 400+ subs yesterday alone, and as the devs actually post there I can see it being a trend (metric).

Is it millions, no of course not, because most people still playing don’t unsub, but it does show that many don’t like the direction the game is going in.

I think I’m still going to stand by my “millions” quote. The vast VAST majority of players have been casual.

But, remember that my “millions” includes players who have quit. The game DID appeal to them.

Now, certainly a larger percentage of hardcore players quit than casuals. Hardcore players get bored when the content isn’t hard enough (or new enough) for them, and the seek out more difficult games.

I was actually agreeing with you, and I am sure the vast majority are casual. The only metic we have is their quarterly report to be certain, but I was using the only method at my disposal. BTW that number is over 1k now.

Harper.4173:

400+ subs lost doesn’t mean those people left the game. It means they left reddit. Let’s not make things into what they’re not.

True, but it does show that players are unsubing reddit at a very fast pace and the devs actually reply there. For all any of us know they are still playing daily and enjoying themselves, however the quarterly report will give true numbers.

Fun Facts:

1. High Social Environment does not mean casual friendly, as far as technical definition is concerned it actually means requiring of High Social Skills, so when someone says this is a High Social Experience he means you need to have excellent communication skills. Guess what game environment requires that? Raids. Anyone who has put “High Social Skills” on their resume knows this.
2. Dungeons originally were suppose to be harder than the raids that were released with GW2 Hot. It was advertised kitten. Dungeons were nerfed to satisfy the WoW kiddies who came to the game. that couldn’t function out of the UI fiesta that WoW has become.
3. Aside from the grind fest added in HoT, the CGC released in HoT is in line with the original intentions of Anet.

Tommyknocker.6089:

Daddicus.6128:

Tommyknocker.6089:

Well many don’t post here as they are seldom replied to by anyone in power. That being said, Reddit lost 400+ subs yesterday alone, and as the devs actually post there I can see it being a trend (metric).

Is it millions, no of course not, because most people still playing don’t unsub, but it does show that many don’t like the direction the game is going in.

I think I’m still going to stand by my “millions” quote. The vast VAST majority of players have been casual.

But, remember that my “millions” includes players who have quit. The game DID appeal to them.

Now, certainly a larger percentage of hardcore players quit than casuals. Hardcore players get bored when the content isn’t hard enough (or new enough) for them, and the seek out more difficult games.

I was actually agreeing with you, and I am sure the vast majority are casual. The only metic we have is their quarterly report to be certain, but I was using the only method at my disposal. BTW that number is over 1k now.

Harper.4173:

400+ subs lost doesn’t mean those people left the game. It means they left reddit. Let’s not make things into what they’re not.

True, but it does show that players are unsubing reddit at a very fast pace and the devs actually reply there. For all any of us know they are still playing daily and enjoying themselves, however the quarterly report will give true numbers.

They might be playing. They might not be playing.

Vargamonth.2047:

In fact, GW2 combat has always been marketed as a fast paced action based one (“Combat in Guild Wars 2 is flexible, fast-paced, and dynamic. You’ll achieve victory through timing, dodging, and quick thinking, not immobile number-crunching”, directly copied from the web) which doesn’t exactly sound like a warm welcome for mechanically unskilled players.

…and yet, what did we actually end up with?

Berserker>skip>stack>melee and (most) people dropping ridiculously, like flies, if any of that attempt to avoid playing dynamically went “wrong”…

Showing most of them were either asleep, or had no talent for “dynamic” gameplay, at all.

I, honestly, don’t know which is worse?

A, supposedly, dynamic game, which ends in people just standing still, on top of each other, hitting 111111?

Or a game where the casuals are (still) funding the hardcore, while not having much to do, themselves?

Both seem wrong, to me.

What is interesting, though, is that some of the people, who like the new direction, also liked the old cheesing?

I don’t get why the same person would like both, as they seem contradictory?

Unless they just claim to like everything Anet produces and everything the players end up doing with it, regardless.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Fun Facts:

1. High Social Environment does not mean casual friendly, as far as technical definition is concerned it actually means requiring of High Social Skills, so when someone says this is a High Social Experience he means you need to have excellent communication skills. Guess what game environment requires that? Raids. Anyone who has put “High Social Skills” on their resume knows this.
2. Dungeons originally were suppose to be harder than the raids that were released with GW2 Hot. It was advertised kitten. Dungeons were nerfed to satisfy the WoW kiddies who came to the game. that couldn’t function out of the UI fiesta that WoW has become.
3. Aside from the grind fest added in HoT, the CGC released in HoT is in line with the original intentions of Anet.

1. True. But sadly, a high social skill alone means nothing when you are looking for a rewarding experience. You can be a first class demagouge or manager and not have a single honest or sympathetic thought for other people. I don´t want to spend my free time with people like this.
2. Dungeons are boring. Fully agree here. not sure if they were intended to be harder, but I am pretty sure that some people over at Anet thought who would be the better source of money. Too bad they did not put rthat much effort into planning the actual dungeons…
3. Debatable. I don´t say that you are wrong, but neither you or I know the Intention of Anet from the start except that they expected to earn money from us.

The game is casual friendly still. It has more trolls and idiots nowdays but there’s always more nice players than jerks whenever I see someone needing help.

PvP attracts younger players, younger players tend to be the ones who do the majority of trolling because they can’t get away with acting like a jerk at home. Expanding the PvP platform increases the younger demographic and in turn sours the community a little. But not enough to say it isn’t a casual friendly game anymore.

Curious why are casuals always considered to be people that don’t want any sort of challenge from a game. I always thought casuals were just people that only got to play a certain/specific amount of time for the day/week???? I am confuzzled…..

Lalainnia.3598:

Curious why are casuals always considered to be people that don’t want any sort of challenge from a game. I always thought casuals were just people that only got to play a certain/specific amount of time for the day/week???? I am confuzzled…..

“Casual” means different things to different people. For some, it means playing only a brief time each day or only a few days a week. For others, it means a more relaxing playstyle that involves a minimum of grind or frustrating gameplay mechanics. For still others, it’s both of these. I’m sure there’s more than this, too. So, it makes it hard to pin down a definition everyone really accepts.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Fun Facts:

1. High Social Environment does not mean casual friendly, as far as technical definition is concerned it actually means requiring of High Social Skills, so when someone says this is a High Social Experience he means you need to have excellent communication skills. Guess what game environment requires that? Raids. Anyone who has put “High Social Skills” on their resume knows this.
2. Dungeons originally were suppose to be harder than the raids that were released with GW2 Hot. It was advertised kitten. Dungeons were nerfed to satisfy the WoW kiddies who came to the game. that couldn’t function out of the UI fiesta that WoW has become.
3. Aside from the grind fest added in HoT, the CGC released in HoT is in line with the original intentions of Anet.

On #2 they didn’t do a lot of nerfing. What happened is that the game is so poorly balanced that once players figured out the “broken” specs they became extremely easy. Let’s also not forget that by making these dungeons at lower levels it means you can be undergeared going in with a lot less traits so that made them really hard when leveling and easier once fully geared/specced. Then they introduced Ascended gear which the dungeons clearly were never balanced around.

The biggest example of this is Lupicus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZS_pBNS0xc

You can’t blame this one of casuals wanting nerfs. Depending on your level, spec, and gear the difficulty ranges from stupidly hard to “was that a boss?”

Tigaseye.2047:

Vargamonth.2047:

In fact, GW2 combat has always been marketed as a fast paced action based one (“Combat in Guild Wars 2 is flexible, fast-paced, and dynamic. You’ll achieve victory through timing, dodging, and quick thinking, not immobile number-crunching”, directly copied from the web) which doesn’t exactly sound like a warm welcome for mechanically unskilled players.

…and yet, what did we actually end up with?

Berserker>skip>stack>melee and (most) people dropping ridiculously, like flies, if any of that attempt to avoid playing dynamically went “wrong”…

Showing most of them were either asleep, or had no talent for “dynamic” gameplay, at all.

I, honestly, don’t know which is worse?

A, supposedly, dynamic game, which ends in people just standing still, on top of each other, hitting 111111?

Or a game where the casuals are (still) funding the hardcore, while not having much to do, themselves?

Both seem wrong, to me.

What is interesting, though, is that some of the people, who like the new direction, also liked the old cheesing?

I don’t get why the same person would like both, as they seem contradictory?

Unless they just claim to like everything Anet produces and everything the players end up doing with it, regardless.

I’m just trying to point how the game was (and still is) advertised in an attempt to make clear which features brought the community to indentify this game as “casual friendly”.

What we finally got delivered is a different topic but, yes, I can fully agree with you on vanilla content being quite terrible at delivering the advertised dynamic combat.
Even worse, almost any single attempt from developers to shake up things got a negative community reaction so they eventually gave up on changing anything.

In this sense, I think HoT is a huge step forward for both new open world and new instanced content (although I feel like they somewhat ruined fractals in the porcess).
Unfortunately, they’ve also make new content far less casual friendly, and it’s not like both things were in direct competition.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

A long time ago, there was an MMO that advertised itself out there to be “the” casual player mmo.

When did this happen exactly? I don’t remember any time in the history of development that they ever stated “this will be the casual player mmo”, in fact during the beta weekends players got to play the story mode of AC and it caused too many tears. There were even posts claiming that AC story mode was harder than WoW raiding. A single story run could take a couple of hours… Talk about 5 minute casual dungeon runs.

The game was never “advertised” as the casual game, that happened when the community figured out ways to cheese encounters and understood how the combat system worked. Remember even the devs themselves admitted they didn’t plan for Exotic gear to be so easy to get, so they introduced Ascended. The “Explorable” mode dungeon paths were supposed to be the “raids” of the game and for quite some time they were. I guess you’ve never spent 3 or more hours trying to finish Arah P4 during the first month or two.

And now they introduced new content that people love to say “it’s for the 1% minority” or any other non-sense like that. I will give you a newsflash, explorable modes were supposed to be for the minority as well, but they failed. Why don’t we all wait and see how this “for the 1%” content is going to end up in a few months. If we go by example, an Arah P4 run could take 3 hours, now it takes 30-40 minutes.

To me, casual may be the wrong word.

When GW2 came out, I saw it as the working man’s (or woman’s) MMO – as an alternative to the raiding focused time sinks on the market at the time. It was a place where I could focus on having fun with friends without worrying about their skill level or how much time they spend playing the game. I started and built a very successful 400+ person guild around this concept.

Im not saying that has changed. My guild has had a lot of fun playing together in the new zones. However, I do see some trends and developmental direction that concerns me.

Specifically, I mean the following:

1. The lack of support for guild missions. No new guild missions in 2+ years, alongside the huge number of bugs we’ve seen since HOT means that missions have become a chore rather than a fun group activity.

2. The inflexibility of raids. I know this is a controversial topic, but the reality is they could have introduced raids that retained the current difficulty while still offering access to the less focused players (specifically, replace the enrage with a tiered reward systems). Note that I am moving through the raid personally just fine, so this isnt about personal bitterness – I just think the current raid setup could have been thought out much better.

3. The exclusive nature of legendary armor. Legendary armor should be EXTREMELY hard to acquire, but it should be possible for those playing every game mode, inlcuding PVP and WvW.

I know people will disagree with some of this. I am simply illustrating the elements of the game that are moving it away from the friendly, community focus it has had for the past few years. It is now in the hands of the developers. If they continue down this path to directly then I can confidently say they will lose large numbers of their players to other more community focused competitors emerging in the coming years.

Early on, people came to GW2 looking for something different – and we found it. If it goes away or is supplanted by something we dont find fun, we will go looking for it elsewhere.

Distaste.4801:

Let’s also not forget that by making these dungeons at lower levels it means you can be undergeared going in with a lot less traits so that made them really hard when leveling and easier once fully geared/specced. Then they introduced Ascended gear which the dungeons clearly were never balanced around.

Ascended gear does not effect most of the dungeons. Because in dungeons that are below level 80 (and also in sub-80 maps), Ascended gear has exact the same stats as exotic gear.

Lalainnia.3598:

Curious why are casuals always considered to be people that don’t want any sort of challenge from a game. I always thought casuals were just people that only got to play a certain/specific amount of time for the day/week???? I am confuzzled…..

I would say casuals are people who want to be able to play at their own pace, without being forced into a box. Difficult or easy content is irrelevant. Even impossible or nearly impossible (to them) content isn’t a game-breaker.

Casuals also TEND towards solo play. Perhaps casuals could be thought of as anything other than killers on Bartle’s Gamer Psychology grid.

I myself am an achiever, but both explorers and socializers, it seems to me, would be considered “casual”. Being an achiever, not being able to finish the story is a game-breaker. Now, I’m not talking about the difficulties of combat. One expects those every so often. But, when you can’t find your way through the maze even after you’ve been through it, or you’re repeatedly gated, or you are dependent upon someone else, that’s not casual.

Explorers and Socializers probably have different definitions of casual. But, Killers aren’t casual.

NOTE: Not all gamers are going to fit neatly into any scheme of partitioning. So, my comments on achievers are really mostly about me, and my comments on the other three should be taken with a heavy grain of salt.

Daddicus.6128:

Lalainnia.3598:

Curious why are casuals always considered to be people that don’t want any sort of challenge from a game. I always thought casuals were just people that only got to play a certain/specific amount of time for the day/week???? I am confuzzled…..

I would say casuals are people who want to be able to play at their own pace, without being forced into a box. Difficult or easy content is irrelevant. Even impossible or nearly impossible (to them) content isn’t a game-breaker.

Casuals also TEND towards solo play. Perhaps casuals could be thought of as anything other than killers on Bartle’s Gamer Psychology grid.

I myself am an achiever, but both explorers and socializers, it seems to me, would be considered “casual”. Being an achiever, not being able to finish the story is a game-breaker. Now, I’m not talking about the difficulties of combat. One expects those every so often. But, when you can’t find your way through the maze even after you’ve been through it, or you’re repeatedly gated, or you are dependent upon someone else, that’s not casual.

Explorers and Socializers probably have different definitions of casual. But, Killers aren’t casual.

NOTE: Not all gamers are going to fit neatly into any scheme of partitioning. So, my comments on achievers are really mostly about me, and my comments on the other three should be taken with a heavy grain of salt.

I completely disagree. Under my understanding of “casual”, any of the Bartle’s categories is perfectly possible.
In fact, a casual achiever is probably the wierdest one (as he will find himself all the time fighting an uphill battle) and casual killers are not only possible, but extremely common (they just don’t favor MMOs because they’re time consuming).

Daddicus.6128:

Harper.4173:

They advertised the friendliest community before the game launch? I didn’t see that posted anywhere.
In fact – it was a horn they started tooting about 1 year after GW2’s release.

Guess you should have followed the game pre-launch better buddy.

Where did I say anything about before game launch? They touted it after launch as a way to draw more people in. And, they claimed the reason was because they designed the game that way. (Both of which were true, IMO, but that’s a different debate.)

That’s my point – the advertisement came after release. Pre-release there was no talk of the game being friendly or easy. Nobody promised any of that to the people that bought GW2.

Also regarding difficulty – if your main source of information in a MMO is map chat you’re honestly doing it wrong.
There’s google, there’s wiki, there’s dulfy and a dozen other sites. You can find detailed guides on almost anything.

Why somebody would ask stuff in map chat is beyond me – very very rarely have I ever done it and only when I identified an individual with a similar problem at the same time as me.

Tommyknocker.6089:

Daddicus.6128:

Tommyknocker.6089:

Well many don’t post here as they are seldom replied to by anyone in power. That being said, Reddit lost 400+ subs yesterday alone, and as the devs actually post there I can see it being a trend (metric).

Is it millions, no of course not, because most people still playing don’t unsub, but it does show that many don’t like the direction the game is going in.

I think I’m still going to stand by my “millions” quote. The vast VAST majority of players have been casual.

But, remember that my “millions” includes players who have quit. The game DID appeal to them.

Now, certainly a larger percentage of hardcore players quit than casuals. Hardcore players get bored when the content isn’t hard enough (or new enough) for them, and the seek out more difficult games.

I was actually agreeing with you, and I am sure the vast majority are casual. The only metic we have is their quarterly report to be certain, but I was using the only method at my disposal. BTW that number is over 1k now.

Harper.4173:

400+ subs lost doesn’t mean those people left the game. It means they left reddit. Let’s not make things into what they’re not.

True, but it does show that players are unsubing reddit at a very fast pace and the devs actually reply there. For all any of us know they are still playing daily and enjoying themselves, however the quarterly report will give true numbers.

The problem with your analysis is that you don’t factor in data over long periods of time. Is the GW2 subreddit bigger now sub-wise than it was last year at around this time? I’m pretty sure it is.

You’re listing one day when 400 subs left – but what about other days when others joined?

You have to look at the whole dynamic of the sub gain/loss and even then there’s no guarantee it’ll correlate with what’s happening in game.

GW2 might be losing the type of players that subs to reddit only to replace them with another type of player that doesn’t use reddit – perhaps GW2 is losing its social players. That doesn’t mean GW2 is doing poorly player-wise. It doesn’t mean GW2 didn’t gain 2-3-5 antisocial players for each social player lost.

It’s a difficult thing to predict player population based on what reddit is doing.

Tigaseye.2047:

Vargamonth.2047:

In fact, GW2 combat has always been marketed as a fast paced action based one (“Combat in Guild Wars 2 is flexible, fast-paced, and dynamic. You’ll achieve victory through timing, dodging, and quick thinking, not immobile number-crunching”, directly copied from the web) which doesn’t exactly sound like a warm welcome for mechanically unskilled players.

…and yet, what did we actually end up with?

Berserker>skip>stack>melee and (most) people dropping ridiculously, like flies, if any of that attempt to avoid playing dynamically went “wrong”…

Showing most of them were either asleep, or had no talent for “dynamic” gameplay, at all.

I, honestly, don’t know which is worse?

A, supposedly, dynamic game, which ends in people just standing still, on top of each other, hitting 111111?

Or a game where the casuals are (still) funding the hardcore, while not having much to do, themselves?

Both seem wrong, to me.

What is interesting, though, is that some of the people, who like the new direction, also liked the old cheesing?

I don’t get why the same person would like both, as they seem contradictory?

Unless they just claim to like everything Anet produces and everything the players end up doing with it, regardless.

You’re once again showing your ignorance of what was the berserker meta. I’m going to once again point out that it was far more than pressing 1 repeatedly. If you did that you’d wipe.

Going full glass meant being capable of using active damage mitigation and dodges to keep yourself alive.

I dare you to go in any of the dungeons and just slap zerker gear on any class, stack and press 1- you won’t get far at all.
You need more than just pressing 1 – you need to time your blocks, blinds,invulns, dodges and reflects.

You need to be on point – and you need to do all that while maintaining high dps so the boss dies before your mitigation measures are all on cooldown and you’re overwhelmed.

That’s why if somebody wasn’t playing high-DPS he became a detriment to his party – because his lack of damage would kill the party since they could no longer do enough damage to kill the boss before their countermeasures went on CD and they weren’t able to counter the boss’ damage.

You should know this by now.

Torolan.5816:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Fun Facts:

1. High Social Environment does not mean casual friendly, as far as technical definition is concerned it actually means requiring of High Social Skills, so when someone says this is a High Social Experience he means you need to have excellent communication skills. Guess what game environment requires that? Raids. Anyone who has put “High Social Skills” on their resume knows this.
2. Dungeons originally were suppose to be harder than the raids that were released with GW2 Hot. It was advertised kitten. Dungeons were nerfed to satisfy the WoW kiddies who came to the game. that couldn’t function out of the UI fiesta that WoW has become.
3. Aside from the grind fest added in HoT, the CGC released in HoT is in line with the original intentions of Anet.

1. True. But sadly, a high social skill alone means nothing when you are looking for a rewarding experience. You can be a first class demagouge or manager and not have a single honest or sympathetic thought for other people. I don´t want to spend my free time with people like this.
2. Dungeons are boring. Fully agree here. not sure if they were intended to be harder, but I am pretty sure that some people over at Anet thought who would be the better source of money. Too bad they did not put rthat much effort into planning the actual dungeons…
3. Debatable. I don´t say that you are wrong, but neither you or I know the Intention of Anet from the start except that they expected to earn money from us.

I don’t remember dungeons ever being nerfed – at least not in the first year.
The scaling balance at one point made the low level ones really easy.

It’s just that as people improved, learned mechanics, classes and the encounters the dungeons became easier.

Yes – the bugs and cheese spots also made them easier but I don’t remember there ever being a huge patch that made all dungeons across the board easier.

Vargamonth.2047:

Tigaseye.2047:

Vargamonth.2047:

In fact, GW2 combat has always been marketed as a fast paced action based one (“Combat in Guild Wars 2 is flexible, fast-paced, and dynamic. You’ll achieve victory through timing, dodging, and quick thinking, not immobile number-crunching”, directly copied from the web) which doesn’t exactly sound like a warm welcome for mechanically unskilled players.

…and yet, what did we actually end up with?

Berserker>skip>stack>melee and (most) people dropping ridiculously, like flies, if any of that attempt to avoid playing dynamically went “wrong”…

Showing most of them were either asleep, or had no talent for “dynamic” gameplay, at all.

I, honestly, don’t know which is worse?

A, supposedly, dynamic game, which ends in people just standing still, on top of each other, hitting 111111?

Or a game where the casuals are (still) funding the hardcore, while not having much to do, themselves?

Both seem wrong, to me.

What is interesting, though, is that some of the people, who like the new direction, also liked the old cheesing?

I don’t get why the same person would like both, as they seem contradictory?

Unless they just claim to like everything Anet produces and everything the players end up doing with it, regardless.

I’m just trying to point how the game was (and still is) advertised in an attempt to make clear which features brought the community to indentify this game as “casual friendly”.

What we finally got delivered is a different topic but, yes, I can fully agree with you on vanilla content being quite terrible at delivering the advertised dynamic combat.
Even worse, almost any single attempt from developers to shake up things got a negative community reaction so they eventually gave up on changing anything.

In this sense, I think HoT is a huge step forward for both new open world and new instanced content (although I feel like they somewhat ruined fractals in the porcess).
Unfortunately, they’ve also make new content far less casual friendly, and it’s not like both things were in direct competition.

The reason dynamic combat received a negative reaction is obvious – everyone who does PvE does it because they want stuff – that’s what PvE does – you trade time for stuff – and that’s the case for the majority of players.

If someone truly wants dynamic combat against a worth opponent – well those people already have it – it’s called PvP. Against a human opponent you’re never quite sure what’s going to happen and thus the combat is fresh and fun and truly “dynamic”.

In PvE however most people just want to find the optimal way to get most of the encounters “on farm” – and since GW2’s high-end cosmetics are so highly driven by the necessity of huge sums of money you can’t really blame the players for wanting to just farm it out without giving a kitten about the “dynamic combat”.

Nobody does dungeons for “dynamic combat” in GW2 – and I doubt very many are doing raids because they enjoy “raid-tier difficulty” and “tough encounters”.
I’m willing to bet you the vast majority of players doing raids now are only doing them because of the exclusive rewards and legendary armor that are gated behind them.

Blaeys.3102:

To me, casual may be the wrong word.

When GW2 came out, I saw it as the working man’s (or woman’s) MMO – as an alternative to the raiding focused time sinks on the market at the time. It was a place where I could focus on having fun with friends without worrying about their skill level or how much time they spend playing the game. I started and built a very successful 400+ person guild around this concept.

Im not saying that has changed. My guild has had a lot of fun playing together in the new zones. However, I do see some trends and developmental direction that concerns me.

Specifically, I mean the following:

1. The lack of support for guild missions. No new guild missions in 2+ years, alongside the huge number of bugs we’ve seen since HOT means that missions have become a chore rather than a fun group activity.

2. The inflexibility of raids. I know this is a controversial topic, but the reality is they could have introduced raids that retained the current difficulty while still offering access to the less focused players (specifically, replace the enrage with a tiered reward systems). Note that I am moving through the raid personally just fine, so this isnt about personal bitterness – I just think the current raid setup could have been thought out much better.

3. The exclusive nature of legendary armor. Legendary armor should be EXTREMELY hard to acquire, but it should be possible for those playing every game mode, inlcuding PVP and WvW.

I know people will disagree with some of this. I am simply illustrating the elements of the game that are moving it away from the friendly, community focus it has had for the past few years. It is now in the hands of the developers. If they continue down this path to directly then I can confidently say they will lose large numbers of their players to other more community focused competitors emerging in the coming years.

Early on, people came to GW2 looking for something different – and we found it. If it goes away or is supplanted by something we dont find fun, we will go looking for it elsewhere.

1. Anet has a long track record of implementing something – perhaps the great of something great – then leaving it alone only to really break it further when they touch it next.

Look at dungeons, look at fractals – guild missions are in the same pit. I’m sure the next time they decide to look at them and rework them they’ll make them even worse in some unimaginable way than they are today. That’s their track record.

2. Yes and no to that – they risked having people doing “ez midtier raid farm” with nobody trying for top tier because they can easily do midtier.

3.The problem with this is that if they did it this way people could in fact obtain it easier -by pulling resources from all three : PvP, PvE and WvW – doing a bit of each.

It would also mean that a lot of PvE players would be thrown into WvW and PvP with the sole purpose of getting said armor – and with a lack of intent to really participate in those modes’ intended purposes – to fight other players.

A lot of griefing and match manipulation could show up.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

A long time ago, there was an MMO that advertised itself out there to be “the” casual player mmo. This mmo promised it would create content that would be designed for relaxing and open social gameplay, the ability to play with friends without having to, the ability to do dungeon runs that werent frustrating or tedious, a massive world vs world vs world pvp mode that encouraged thousands to play. Huge map wide raids were also a big deal in these casual event systems designed to help casual gamers play with other casual gamers.

Non-hot maps, dungeons, world bosses are still very casual. Maybe not TT, but the rest is.

Now, I feel like the game wants me to rush into content, get my ascended mats, aquire legendaries, 5000 acheivement points minimum and alot more content thats just locked behind farming for content so that an kitten group of stowaways from other MMO’s can have their moment to shine.

You are very, very wrong. It’s like crying that world is forcing you to work because you need money. If you want to do things at your own pace, do it. This way you’ll get your gear/whatever slower, but eventually you’ll have it. And why do you tell us game wants you to get ascendeds or legendaries? Asc armor/weapons are optional, you dont need them unless you do fractals, but then it’s something for something, you dont have to go into higher fotms than 20 lvl, nobody tells you you have. And legendaries? gw isn’t nicknamed as skin wars for nothing XD
Next thing… How long do you play since, I guess, you don’t have 5k ap? Really, doing random things should give you kittenload of it.

Can we please, PLEASE go back to what MADE GW2 special in the first place.

Going forward, GW2 needs to abbandon this “challenging group content” kitten and “e-sport pvp ladder” system and just focus on what MADE GW2 special.

Its a game, people can play at their own leisure for fun, with nothing overly complicated about that at all.

GW2 was special in way you picture it long time ago, when community wasn’t this experienced… if you’re kicked from dungeon/whatever because you don’t have berserker armor, but, let’s say, shaman’s (who uses this kitten anyway XD) find group that isn’t “elitist piece of kitten” or quit playing. if you want have your own pace don’t force others to abbadon theirs, because your is better. as someone wise said “community will find the most effective way to deal with content, no matter what designers want to implement”
Easy example, today bunch of pugs killed vinetooth without breaking it’s breakbar, just using kittenload of damage. Idk if it’s not nerfed tho.
Next thing, again… Why do you want ME to pick YOUR pace? I like “challenging group content”, it’s really fun when I spend kittenloads of my free time on ts, chatting with random french guys who laugh at my pronouciation while trying to kill boss. Core game was too easy and i’m very happy with HoT content in this matter.

Season 2 did this ALOT better than HoT did.

Going into Season 3 and future expansions, I would seriously hope A-net goes BACK to what made the games CORE gameplay special.

I want a game that isnt just another WoW clone, dont become another wow clone, A-net.

2nd season… you mean storytelling or what? And, don’t forget, HoT is harder, not hard tho, we still have some tough stuff like… Okay, my bad, it’s still too easy and too nerfed if we can ignore mechanics because we can stay in meele, But the thing is HoT is harder because community wasn’t happy with difficulty of 99% of core game.
If you want easy content go for core game, play on world bosses, do jumping puzzles, gather potatoes. If you want to get experienced come for harder content, watch few guides and play.

tl;dr —> it’s kittened to want to have easier game because it doesn’t fit your pace, because easy game won’t fit pace of at least part of players. If you want some nice skin farm for it, do content, buy gems, whatever. If not stay with you current gear. Simple as such

Harper.4173:

The reason dynamic combat received a negative reaction is obvious – everyone who does PvE does it because they want stuff – that’s what PvE does – you trade time for stuff – and that’s the case for the majority of players.

If someone truly wants dynamic combat against a worth opponent – well those people already have it – it’s called PvP. Against a human opponent you’re never quite sure what’s going to happen and thus the combat is fresh and fun and truly “dynamic”.

In PvE however most people just want to find the optimal way to get most of the encounters “on farm” – and since GW2’s high-end cosmetics are so highly driven by the necessity of huge sums of money you can’t really blame the players for wanting to just farm it out without giving a kitten about the “dynamic combat”.

Nobody does dungeons for “dynamic combat” in GW2 – and I doubt very many are doing raids because they enjoy “raid-tier difficulty” and “tough encounters”.
I’m willing to bet you the vast majority of players doing raids now are only doing them because of the exclusive rewards and legendary armor that are gated behind them.

I can assure you there’s people playing the game because of the combat.
The many times I’ve undermanned dungeons or fractals without any intention to sell the remaining slots, it has pretty much always been about making the fights more fun.
I’m also partaking in raids while I have zero interest on a legendary armor.

But you’re right. The majority doesn’t, the majority goes for rewards, and that’s exactly what bothers me about all these complaints about casualness.
A good portion (maybe even a majority) of the GW2 playerbase doesn’t have a casual mindset, but a hardcore achiever one. They just lack the will, time or skill to fulfill some of their goals.

That’s not what I meant – I’m playing the game because of the combat – however I don’t feel like having the full extent of the combat’s dynamic elements thrown at me when I’m mostly trying to farm.

In fact – if I’m farming – which I am most of the time in game – I’d rather the game didn’t throw complex stuff at me so I could be done easier/faster.

The difference between you and me in terms of how we play is pretty much evident – I’ve undermanned content too but only because the extra slots brought a nice profit.

I agree with the fact that players like yourself are very few – and that in fact rewards are the primary motivators of players.
I mean – look at dungeons before their rewards were buffed – ghost town. Rewards buffed? Speed runs for days and easy to find a party. Rewards nerfed again? Ghost town.

The only reason FOTM was run before the update was because of ascended armor/weapon drops (and yes – the drops were significant – I pulled 3 whole ascended chests out of FOTM drops with a 4th one on the way and many others got more) and the unique skins.
That and the slot sells for scales 40 and 50. Which people paid for.

I think what people are trying to express when they call themselves casual is “I can’t play a lot” or “I can’t play often” or “I don’t want to bother to stay up-to-date with my strategies, comps and builds”.
I don’t think they mean they’re taking a casual carefree “i don’t care about those rewards I’m here to have fun” approach – at least not most of them.

Harper.4173:

I think what people are trying to express when they call themselves casual is “I can’t play a lot” or “I can’t play often” or “I don’t want to bother to stay up-to-date with my strategies, comps and builds”.
I don’t think they mean they’re taking a casual carefree “i don’t care about those rewards I’m here to have fun” approach – at least not most of them.

That’s exactly the problem.

I’ve been too on a farm status plenty of time (currently trying to fill the hit or miss AP on wintersday activities, which is a horrible experience I hoped to not repeat a second time) and I’ve also sold filler slots for instanced content (I just prefer to underman content even when I won’t).
It’s not my natural mindset, but I just happen to have plenty of time to play (and I can rely on single player games because I devour them in few days) and too little truly interesting things to do (this was at least the case before the expansion arrived), so I let the little completionist inside me to lead.

The thing is, if for some reason I’d find myself with a lot less time to play, I would completely change the way I do it, trying to focus on those things I find more fun instead of setting and pursuing tangible goals (which are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but often are).

Playing on a hardcore achiever mindset when you lack the most basic capabilities (like time) to fulfill your own goals can bring nothing but frustration. It might work for a while if your goals are reasonable, but it’s just a matter of time until you put your eyes on something that’s completely out of your reach (which is when the complaints and the entitlement arises).
For their own mental health, casual players should make the effort of bringing themselves into a casual mindset.

Tommyknocker.6089:

Dashingsteel.3410:

Before HoT, I always had a legitimate chance of acquiring a festival or event skin. The requirements were sensible.

Since HoT, I present Nightfury and Winter’s Presence….. The requirements for these skins are just nauseating.

When people talk about the grind in HoT, this is exactly the kind of thing they are talking about. You either have to grind for those drinks during the festival OR spend a ton of gold on drinks( cynical gold sinks also a trend since HoT)

On a side note Jumping puzzle requirement is crap. Prior to HoT jp’s were just a sideshow attraction. HoT is trying to turn my rpg into a platformer and that sucks.

Case in point, the Halloween back piece from 2012:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mad_Memoires:_Complete_Edition

Was received after doing a quest involving going places, defeating evil and generally just playing with other players. Everyone that tried to get one had one. There was no elitism involved and the gold sink/grind was non-existent.

Fast forward 3 years and we have nightfury

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nightfury_Skin

Does nobody at ANet see the difference here? I know I sure do!

Thank you! Same thing with Wintersday.

Dashingsteel.3410:

Yep, it’s all about the money. I withhold mine until they revert to their original philosophy. Platforming and gated content isn’t a direction for the game that excites me.

Yup.

I paid for GW2 because of what it was three years before HoT was even a concept. As such, it’s not hard to imagine that I actively DO NOT WANT content like what they made in HoT, most of which I would never actually use – like, at all.

I liked GW2, because it was everything that so many other MMOs were not. Now Anet stives to make GW2 like every other grindy, boring, made-for-the-minority MMO… Dissapointing.

I’m sure Anet will do an aboutface when they realise that the game they made with HoT is for a small, vocal minority of “users” – people who have loud mouths and shallow, if not entirely empty, wallets. The people they made HoT for aren’t going to financially support them, unlike the majority of people who were happy playing GW2 for 3 years the way it was.

Draknar.5748:

Things that people claimed weren’t casual friendly pre-HoT:

Fractals (3 mini dungeons plus a boss?! I don’t have time for that I play 20min a day, I’m casual!)
Dungeons (I can’t get into a group because I don’t have zerk gear and I don’t speedrun! I’m casual!)
World completion (why do we have to do WvW for world completion, I’m casual, I don’t like PvP!)
Story-mode finale (I need a group to finish the story?! what the heck Anet! I’m too casual for that!)
Living Story S1 (these LS events are timed?! You’re saying I can’t do all of the achievements within the 2 weeks if I only play 10min a day?! I’m casual, wtf ANET!
Living Story S2 (wtf Anet, I didn’t log in when these were released because I’m super casual, and now you want me to grind gold so I can trade for gems? I’m casual! I don’t have the time nor money to do this!)
Dailies (Whoa, Anet, look at how long it’s taking to do these dailies! And I have to do it to get laurels?! I’m only on for 2min a day! I can’t possibly get all of this AP that you are forcing me to get! Make it casual friendly!)

I think a lot of people think that casual friendly means everything needs to be able to be completed quickly or easily. A casual player does not imply a bad player, it implies someone that plays at their own, typically slow, pace. Being able to do things at your own pace: that’s the definition of being casual friendly.

In GW2 you can do literally everything at your own pace (minus holiday events, as those are time limited). That is casual friendly. Raids is the only area that I would say has the biggest obstacle to casual players, and that’s getting a 10man group together.

I’d love to hear what exactly in GW2 you couldn’t do at your own, casual, pace.

If something takes a long time, it doesn’t mean it isn’t casual friendly, it just means it will take longer to complete, but it can still be 100% casual.

People claimed crafting legendaries wasn’t casual, but I can assure you I crafted two from scratch, casually, over the course of 2 years. Some days I felt like working towards a requirement, some days I didn’t. I dictated the pace I completed things. THAT IS CASUAL.

That’s some excellent hyperbole. It’s unfortunate that you wasted time writing it.

I’m still waiting on people who claim anet advertised this game as a casual friendly game to post their official sources.

Where’s the you tube videos of the game advertisement?
Where’s the official web images?
Where’s the official box art showing it?

Only thing i’m seeing is a friend of a friend of a friend who knew an anet employee said it was. Or some guy who worked at anet a long time ago said it was on an off hand conversation.

Here is the funny thing … where does the idea that it’s casual friendly come from if the game is not? Think about that. Sure, we got some creep going, but can I still log in and get a skin I like on my timetable? Can I compete in the various game elements without setting a date or planning my gametime for months? I sure can. Can I do that in SWTOR or WOW? Not a chance.

I’m not sure what backgrounds people have or where they learned that a few instances proves a thing, but there isn’t some conspiracy theory here; The game is casual friendly because players find it to be that way, not because Anet dictates it … or at least they find it to be MORE casual friendly than some of the other games they have played.

Yes, that’s perspective and some people will find it’s not casual friendly, but this label for the game is not something people simply made up to start an argument on the forums. Their experience counts.

Wolfey.3407:

I’m still waiting on people who claim anet advertised this game as a casual friendly game to post their official sources.

Where’s the you tube videos of the game advertisement?
Where’s the official web images?
Where’s the official box art showing it?

Only thing i’m seeing is a friend of a friend of a friend who knew an anet employee said it was. Or some guy who worked at anet a long time ago said it was on an off hand conversation.

I’ve learned to judge ANet on what they do, not what they say. I no longer trust what they say. If there was ever an advertisement for a game being for the so-called casual, then the New Player Experience was it. THE NPE reduced hearts that required players to click on more than one thing and reduced them to click on one thing.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Wolfey.3407:

I’m still waiting on people who claim anet advertised this game as a casual friendly game to post their official sources.

Where’s the you tube videos of the game advertisement?
Where’s the official web images?
Where’s the official box art showing it?

Only thing i’m seeing is a friend of a friend of a friend who knew an anet employee said it was. Or some guy who worked at anet a long time ago said it was on an off hand conversation.

I’ve learned to judge ANet on what they do, not what they say. I no longer trust what they say. If there was ever an advertisement for a game being for the so-called casual, then the New Player Experience was it. THE NPE reduced hearts that required players to click on more than one thing and reduced them to click on one thing.

But the OP said the game was advertised as “casual”, which means he must’ve seen an ad about it, or a dev mentioning it somewhere. So where are they exactly? When did they say that? I think the OP simply doesn’t know what he posted about and is just typing non-sense.

And to quote the OP:

A long time ago, there was an MMO that advertised itself out there to be “the” casual player mmo.

Isn’t it normal to expect a source when someone posts something like that?

IndigoSundown.5419:

Wolfey.3407:

I’m still waiting on people who claim anet advertised this game as a casual friendly game to post their official sources.

Where’s the you tube videos of the game advertisement?
Where’s the official web images?
Where’s the official box art showing it?

Only thing i’m seeing is a friend of a friend of a friend who knew an anet employee said it was. Or some guy who worked at anet a long time ago said it was on an off hand conversation.

I’ve learned to judge ANet on what they do, not what they say. I no longer trust what they say. If there was ever an advertisement for a game being for the so-called casual, then the New Player Experience was it. THE NPE reduced hearts that required players to click on more than one thing and reduced them to click on one thing.

Honestly I consider the NPE more of a making the game “game-impaired people proof” more than anything else.

You can be casual – as in not have a lot of time to play – or casual in the way you approach games and still have a level of competence and intelligence that put you way above what the NPE was targeting.

The NPE in my opinion was them trying to make the game accessible and fail-proof to to the worst of players.

I agree with the idea that casual killers are probably the majority of online gamers, but a minority in MMOs like GW2. It takes time and effort to equip properly and kill in GW2, and if it is only to look up builds. Games with fixed classes throw them in, combat, win or loose, out. Extremely casual.

And I think that it indeed was not advertised as casual. But there is also something as obvious evidence with facepalm easy stuff all over core tyria. And people got quickly used to it. Temples were once considered challenging. Temples!
Or think back at how soutsun was introduced if you were already there and how people, especially zerkers, raged about how the mobs got retaliation, avoided much damage and were just hard to kill.
Or Marionette, which took positve critiques all over the game and even in the whole industry because it was fresh and novel. Except of course by pro gamers, who were suddenly forced to play with average people if they wanted something. That was also the point where I finally realized that these people don´t want to have anything to do with common players who do not follow battleplans and metas. Either you meet their expectations, or you´re wortless to them.

Like it or not, average Joe gamers are the majority of GW2 players. That does not say something about them being casual or not of course. A casual player can be extremly good at jumping plattforms in general and achieve puzzles in a time other people spend just looking at them.

Casual for me means not having hours of time a day.

Earlier on I’ve read someone who said they were extremely casual by having 8 hours a day to play, 14 in the weekend. That’s simply absurd. You are talking about a job right there.

I can play at most 2 hours a day, if I’m lucky. In old times that was enough to get to goals in a reasonable amount of time.

Since HoT that is no longer true. Fact of the matter is that you need a large time investment in pretty much anything new implemented. Everything is hidden behind incredibly large time sinks.

THAT is why GW2 is no longer casual friendly in my opinion. The difficulty increase is just fine, people learn to improve. But I can only spend so much time, which is something I can’t improve myself on.

I don’t want to make task lists, spread over months of playing for every little thing I want to get. Obviously there should be long term goals, as legendaries have always been. But there need to be rewarding short term goals, and those are as far as I’m concerned absent right now.

The only way to get anything new these days is by buying it from the shop.

Wolfey.3407:

I’m still waiting on people who claim anet advertised this game as a casual friendly game to post their official sources.

Where’s the you tube videos of the game advertisement?
Where’s the official web images?
Where’s the official box art showing it?

Only thing i’m seeing is a friend of a friend of a friend who knew an anet employee said it was. Or some guy who worked at anet a long time ago said it was on an off hand conversation.

OK. Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBeXr9iC4qU&feature=youtu.be&t=618

You’re welcome…

Dashingsteel.3410:

Platforming was peripheral in vanilla gw2. The change to make it integral to the game is why you are getting complaints. People bought an rpg not a platformer.

how exactly is it ‘integral’? People bought GW2 knowing that it had optional jumping puzzles in it from day 1, if i choose to not do a jumping puzzle it has 0 impact on my ability to play any other part of the game. If you dont like something, just ignore it, your not losing out.

Halandir.3609:

Wolfey.3407:

I’m still waiting on people who claim anet advertised this game as a casual friendly game to post their official sources.

Where’s the you tube videos of the game advertisement?
Where’s the official web images?
Where’s the official box art showing it?

Only thing i’m seeing is a friend of a friend of a friend who knew an anet employee said it was. Or some guy who worked at anet a long time ago said it was on an off hand conversation.

OK. Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBeXr9iC4qU&feature=youtu.be&t=618

You’re welcome…

I would say that compared to every other AAA mmorpg with the exception of LOTR GW2 is by far the friendliest, by virtue of their design choices that reward participation and sharing.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Dashingsteel.3410:

Platforming was peripheral in vanilla gw2. The change to make it integral to the game is why you are getting complaints. People bought an rpg not a platformer.

how exactly is it ‘integral’? People bought GW2 knowing that it had optional jumping puzzles in it from day 1, if i choose to not do a jumping puzzle it has 0 impact on my ability to play any other part of the game. If you dont like something, just ignore it, your not losing out.

It is not so much “integral” as it now locks out a special one time skin to a certain style of playing. I only ever did the original jumping puzzles when a friendly mesmer would port me up to them for a monthly achievement and nothing more. No harm, no foul as it would not mean anything if I didn’t bother with them at all.

With the new inclusion of a skin being gated behind having to do a single timed jumping puzzle it removes this skin to the platformer enjoying crowd. Had they gone the extra mile (foot?) in this case and had it be rewarded also by another means, I am sure we would not be seeing threads like this on the forums.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Dashingsteel.3410:

Platforming was peripheral in vanilla gw2. The change to make it integral to the game is why you are getting complaints. People bought an rpg not a platformer.

how exactly is it ‘integral’? People bought GW2 knowing that it had optional jumping puzzles in it from day 1, if i choose to not do a jumping puzzle it has 0 impact on my ability to play any other part of the game. If you dont like something, just ignore it, your not losing out.

Ok, let us take a look then what has changed over the years?
Things including JPs, other jumping shenanigans or excessive leveling in Core Tyria to complete stuff:
Jumping Puzzles in itself
Some ls1 open world stuff
Festivals
Princess and Mawdrew
Wallbreaker JP to finish a map
Mawdrew was the first to relly heavily on JPs. At a time when the game was 2+ years old.
You do not need the JP to complete southsun, the first major patch with new land.
JPs in festivals were optional, the ablity to grind festivals with dailies is gone too.

HoT:
JPs
Adventures
Mastery Points and actual XP
Map completion for Specialization collections
Stuff as Save the city of Gold
Of course this stuff is optional too, but you miss out on much more stuff than you did with Core Tyria if you don´t like to jump or explore. And would you personally like to play a game where you either miss out on much or endure to farm it and then never do again?

Pandabro.8743:

I used to considered this the best MMO ever and infact prior to HoT I rarely said a bad word about it….well that’s changed with this expansion; I can’t say one positive thing about the HoT.

I could say almost the exact opposite. GW2 was a MMO with some good ideas with mediocre execution and a very shallow end game. HoT has revitalized the game for me by expanding that end game to something that actually tests me somewhat. I do have my own issues with some of the content but overall I’m ecstatic about HoT and the direction they are going in.

Requote just because

Torolan.5816:

Or Marionette, which took positve critiques all over the game and even in the whole industry because it was fresh and novel. Except of course by pro gamers, who were suddenly forced to play with average people if they wanted something. That was also the point where I finally realized that these people don´t want to have anything to do with common players who do not follow battleplans and metas. Either you meet their expectations, or you´re wortless to them.

That’s pretty much it – to very high-end players other players are generally a resource – your performance matters above everything else and that’s just how things are.

I liked the Marionette fight – but like you said I disliked it meant you had to organize all sorts of players that didn’t particularly want to be organized in order to succeed.

Halandir.3609:

Wolfey.3407:

I’m still waiting on people who claim anet advertised this game as a casual friendly game to post their official sources.

Where’s the you tube videos of the game advertisement?
Where’s the official web images?
Where’s the official box art showing it?

Only thing i’m seeing is a friend of a friend of a friend who knew an anet employee said it was. Or some guy who worked at anet a long time ago said it was on an off hand conversation.

OK. Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBeXr9iC4qU&feature=youtu.be&t=618

You’re welcome…

That’s from 2013 – the core game was already launched so it’s not part of the advertisement for core GW2 before release.
It’s also before HoT was even announced – so exactly how does this make a difference?

Also I don’t believe a developer interview should be considered “advertisement”.

Daddicus.6128:

because they fooled me into thinking “challenging” did not mean “extremely difficult”.

wait, wat?
It’s basically it’s definition, I mean, is not a challenge if you arent going to likely fail it!

Challenge: (the situation of being faced with) something that needs great mental or physical effort in order to be done successfully and therefore tests a person’s ability
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/challenge

Harper.4173:

Torolan.5816:

Or Marionette, which took positve critiques all over the game and even in the whole industry because it was fresh and novel. Except of course by pro gamers, who were suddenly forced to play with average people if they wanted something. That was also the point where I finally realized that these people don´t want to have anything to do with common players who do not follow battleplans and metas. Either you meet their expectations, or you´re wortless to them.

That’s pretty much it – to very high-end players other players are generally a resource – your performance matters above everything else and that’s just how things are.

I liked the Marionette fight – but like you said I disliked it meant you had to organize all sorts of players that didn’t particularly want to be organized in order to succeed.

It is a necessity to follow a plan (a plan, neither a build or a meta) in an event like this, I am not even disagreeing with pro gamers in that question. That is a level of cooperation and environmental understanding I also expect from an average player in an open world event that has made the event a few times.
The magic of these events was that you could make mistakes because you were anonymus and there could be a guy or a girl on your plattform that was so pro that he managed to down it all by himself together with you so that you still managed to beat it in time when the three other people were dead.
You could just also just quit it without consequences to anyone if you ran out of time or motivation unlike a raid.
Marionette was in itself a pretty easy fight if you made it a few times. And yes, it was quite frustating when 4/5 plattforms downed their enemy and one with bearbows or zerker warriors could not. But it still was good for some laughs because of accusations in map chat nobody cared for because it was just in map chat and not on TS.

Things begin to turn wrong when you need equipment or a special skill to be useful. From there on a game turns into a specialist job, and I personally dislike that so much that I refuse to be part of a meta raid group despite having the necessary ascended equipment for it.