Guild Wars 2

Silicato.4603:

They didnt jump into HoT cause they dont like the kind of content HoT offers (among other things)

Or they didn’t like the quantity of it.

So… 4 million people who bought GW2… vs 750k who bought HoT… 3,25 millions….thats a lot of “the only players who won’t buy HoT because it’s different than what they are used to”. XD

I’m positive there weren’t 4 million people online pre-HoT that stopped playing when HoT came out. No, out of those 4 million people who bought GW2 only a fraction was still actively playing when HoT was released. How many of those 4 millions were still active players when HoT was released? How many actually retained players didn’t buy HoT?

In a much simplified example, if 10 players bought GW2, then 6 left it means only 4 remained active at HoT release. Out of those 4, if 3 bought HoT, then HoT is a success all things considered. Maybe the main problem with Guild Wars 2 as a whole wasn’t that less player bought HoT than those that bought the core game, but that the game lost so many players in the time frame between release and HoT.

If you like GW2 you should not like HoT and viceversa.
People who enjoyed GW2 have serious problems enjoying HoT.

I disagree with both. It depends on what a player was doing in GW2

Zeonis.1962:

In the end of the day Gw2 is an mmo and people want their characters to progress and obtain special things other players can’t obtain. That’s why grind and challenge exist in mmo’s if they didn’t all mmo’s would die off.

If that was right, people would have “progressed” into HoT, but they didnt.
We cant confuse our own opinion with the reality.
The progress inherited in HoT was not liked by majority of GW2 players.

Silicato.4603:

Zeonis.1962:

In the end of the day Gw2 is an mmo and people want their characters to progress and obtain special things other players can’t obtain. That’s why grind and challenge exist in mmo’s if they didn’t all mmo’s would die off.

If that was right, people would have “progressed” into HoT, but they didnt.
We cant confuse our own opinion with the reality.
The progress inherited in HoT was not liked by majority of GW2 players.

Do you have numbers to back that up? Or just the angry few making a ton of noise on the forums? This new progression might not be liked by a certain % but it gives people a reason to play. unlike before the xpac, do one 50 fractal hope for a fractal weapon and go to sleep.

maddoctor.2738:

Silicato.4603:

So… 4 million people who bought GW2… vs 750k who bought HoT… 3,25 millions….thats a lot of “the only players who won’t buy HoT because it’s different than what they are used to”. XD

I’m positive there weren’t 4 million people online pre-HoT that stopped playing when HoT came out. No, out of those 4 million people who bought GW2 only a fraction was still actively playing when HoT was released. How many of those 4 millions were still active players when HoT was released? How many actually retained players didn’t buy HoT?

In a much simplified example, if 10 players bought GW2, then 6 left it means only 4 remained active at HoT release. Out of those 4, if 3 bought HoT, then HoT is a success all things considered. Maybe the main problem with Guild Wars 2 as a whole wasn’t that less player bought HoT than those that bought the core game, but that the game lost so many players in the time frame between release and HoT.

Lol. what is the point of making an expansion if not trying to bring more people into your game, including the innactive players back? XD
What you are saying simply doesnt make sense. I cant understand how can you use it as a reassoning XD
If 3 years ago you sold 10, and now you sell 3, your business lost 70% of the market you had. if you add that a percentage of those 3 sales are just completely new players, the scenario is even worst. You lost your capacity of attract people with your last product.
To make it simpler: GW2 was a success cause sold 10. Hot is a fail cause sold 3.

maddoctor.2738:

Silicato.4603:

If you like GW2 you should not like HoT and viceversa.
People who enjoyed GW2 have serious problems enjoying HoT.

I disagree with both. It depends on what a player was doing in GW2

Mmmm, can you tell us an example of someone who liked GW2 for X and still liked HoT for that X?

If you liked pvp, now is full of pveers, with a system corrupted to scale positionts.
If you liked easy maps to explore or meta events of 5 min, now you have complicated maps and meta events of 2 hours.
If you however preffered a map like dry top (of 1 hour meta event) now you dont have that in HoT.
If you liked maps like SW (where the maps moves as fast as the people actually moves) you dont have anymore, casue all mapas are 2 hours long no matter what.
If you liked to explore 30 maps, sorry you only have 4.
If you liked dungeons (easy, fast and rewarding) now they dont exist in HoT and you have raids instead (completely unfirendly, hardcore and that requires skills and time). If you liked fractals (long, hard and unrewarding) now you have them fast, easy and very rewarding.
if you liked the pve achieves before, now they are a pain to get.
If you liked wvw and its population before, sorry but now is empty, hf!
If you liked to farm, congrats cause now you must do it, like it or not XD.
If you liked the way to obtain legendarys, now you have to craft them.
if you liked your professions and skills, now you have others, unballanced ones, of course.
If you liked GW2 was free, now pay for HoT

Should i continue? cause i could talk as well about JPs, Guilds management, access to the instanced seasonal events, etc etc.
Hot is completely different to GW2, for the good and for the bad. Specially for the bad, due people didnt want to join the train.

Zeonis.1962:

Silicato.4603:

Zeonis.1962:

In the end of the day Gw2 is an mmo and people want their characters to progress and obtain special things other players can’t obtain. That’s why grind and challenge exist in mmo’s if they didn’t all mmo’s would die off.

If that was right, people would have “progressed” into HoT, but they didnt.
We cant confuse our own opinion with the reality.
The progress inherited in HoT was not liked by majority of GW2 players.

Do you have numbers to back that up? Or just the angry few making a ton of noise on the forums?

XD sure i have, read last posts on this thread or better yet: read yourself the IR statements from NCsoft published yesterday.

This is no longer “the fear speach”, but the real figures. HoT has not sold good.

Helequin.2608:

Please, absolutely send me on a grand quest which will take 6 months to get my Cool Item 27, by all means. But make it a quest with interesting things to see and do, and not just a list of grind. If you make it fun and engaging to do, the complaints tend to go away even if it still takes a long time.

This! Yes. And I actually think the Legendaries are almost there. I love the collection items for legendary and how it sends you to all corners of the game to get it. Plus, the theme of each weapon and the “path” you take to forge them. Now, the crafting gating behind the intermediate steps of the legendary are a little exaggerated, I agree. The game became too gated, actually. You can’t do this, because you don’t have that. And in order to get that, you need to do this, this and that other thing. Other than that, I’d say the game is much better with “massive” events and player participation.

Great post Helequin!

Silicato.4603:

Zeonis.1962:

Silicato.4603:

Zeonis.1962:

In the end of the day Gw2 is an mmo and people want their characters to progress and obtain special things other players can’t obtain. That’s why grind and challenge exist in mmo’s if they didn’t all mmo’s would die off.

If that was right, people would have “progressed” into HoT, but they didnt.
We cant confuse our own opinion with the reality.
The progress inherited in HoT was not liked by majority of GW2 players.

Do you have numbers to back that up? Or just the angry few making a ton of noise on the forums?

XD sure i have, read last posts on this thread or better yet: read yourself the IR statements from NCsoft published yesterday.

This is no longer “the fear speach”, but the real figures. HoT has not sold good.

I’m talking about the number of people who don’t like the progression in the game. HoT’s didn’t sell well due to many things but i’m not talking about that.

Zeonis.1962:

Half of these “if you liked” are so wrong it’s funny. SW isn’t 2 hours long now….. You can still obtain legendary if you want. Professions were always unbalanced like every mmo, Pve achieves are the same as before, PvP is actually more popular now with the new season. Fractals are actually harder past 50 and most people don’t just do one and leave most groups advertise as three fractals 57,67,77 for example is a very popular one. I don’t farm for anything, i used to do fractals alot and i still do that now noting changed. 4 new maps that are larger and have more content then most maps. Actually more then 80% of the old maps are usless at level 80 unless you need map completion or doing a world boss. i could go on and on about your dumb post but ill stop here.

hohoho. pls read again what i wrote… And remember when you read it that my point is to bring into the table that GW2 and HoT are 2 different things and if you like one, you wont like the other. Said that:

I never said sw was 2 hours long, i said in hot there is no map like SW. You cant obtain the new legendaries as they were obtained in GW2. professions were unballanced, but if you like them , now you wont (cause new ones are unballanced to make them better than the old ones). Achieves now they are harder, cause maps are now harder to navigate, as they are the raids or as it is the history and its mobs. About pvp, you are proving my point, now it is fulls of pveers. if you liked before, you wonlt like it now, cause it has changed to make it more accesible. About fractals…in GW2 you didnt have over 50 fractals. and before 50 they were harder than now. And honestly, you just need 10 min to do over 50 now, very hard, yep… About the maps, you are again proving my point. If you liked what you called “useless maps” then you wont like the new maps or HoT. cuase they are completely different.

Is funny you called my post “dumb” when you actually just said i am right and that HoT is different than GW2. XD
For you HoT is better, ok, completely respectable.
But you are on the minority who bought it (look the numbers please). The majority of GW2 players didnt bought it yet, and they are still waiting for an expansion more similar to GW2 in all aspects.

Zeonis.1962:

Silicato.4603:

Zeonis.1962:

Silicato.4603:

Zeonis.1962:

In the end of the day Gw2 is an mmo and people want their characters to progress and obtain special things other players can’t obtain. That’s why grind and challenge exist in mmo’s if they didn’t all mmo’s would die off.

If that was right, people would have “progressed” into HoT, but they didnt.
We cant confuse our own opinion with the reality.
The progress inherited in HoT was not liked by majority of GW2 players.

Do you have numbers to back that up? Or just the angry few making a ton of noise on the forums?

XD sure i have, read last posts on this thread or better yet: read yourself the IR statements from NCsoft published yesterday.

This is no longer “the fear speach”, but the real figures. HoT has not sold good.

I’m talking about the number of people who don’t like the progression in the game. HoT’s didn’t sell well due to many things but i’m not talking about that.

Sorry i found obvious that if you dont like something you dont buy it. Maybe i should have explained that before… XD
And when i talked about progression, i was talking about jumping from gw2 to hot. Not about masteries, lol XD.

You said people want to progress on mmos, i proved to you that actually, people prefer to stay playing what they like, even with no progression, instead of buying new stuff just because it is the “new stuff”.

Silicato.4603:

Zeonis.1962:

Silicato.4603:

Zeonis.1962:

Silicato.4603:

Zeonis.1962:

In the end of the day Gw2 is an mmo and people want their characters to progress and obtain special things other players can’t obtain. That’s why grind and challenge exist in mmo’s if they didn’t all mmo’s would die off.

If that was right, people would have “progressed” into HoT, but they didnt.
We cant confuse our own opinion with the reality.
The progress inherited in HoT was not liked by majority of GW2 players.

Do you have numbers to back that up? Or just the angry few making a ton of noise on the forums?

XD sure i have, read last posts on this thread or better yet: read yourself the IR statements from NCsoft published yesterday.

This is no longer “the fear speach”, but the real figures. HoT has not sold good.

I’m talking about the number of people who don’t like the progression in the game. HoT’s didn’t sell well due to many things but i’m not talking about that.

Sorry i found obvious that if you dont like something you dont buy it. Maybe i should have explained that before… XD
And when i talked about progression, i was talking about jumping from gw2 to hot. Not about masteries, lol XD.

You said people want to progress on mmos, i proved to you that actually, people prefer to stay playing what they like, even with no progression, instead of buying new stuff just because it is the “new stuff”.

We are talking about 2 different things i think. You wanna keep bringing up the fact that HoT’s didn’t sell as well as anet wanted, Thats your big trump card. I’m just saying that the fact the Hot’s didn’t sell well isn’t only due to the changes they made with the game. Mmo’s are dying and also alot of the people who own gw2 before Hot’s quit due to the original game begin boring and stale. it was the biggest problem with gw2 originally not enough challenge. Anet isn’t dumb that’s why they made HoT’s the way it is because people were leaving due to no progression in endgame content and no challenge

Zeonis.1962:

Silicato.4603:

Zeonis.1962:

Silicato.4603:

Zeonis.1962:

Silicato.4603:

Zeonis.1962:

In the end of the day Gw2 is an mmo and people want their characters to progress and obtain special things other players can’t obtain. That’s why grind and challenge exist in mmo’s if they didn’t all mmo’s would die off.

If that was right, people would have “progressed” into HoT, but they didnt.
We cant confuse our own opinion with the reality.
The progress inherited in HoT was not liked by majority of GW2 players.

Do you have numbers to back that up? Or just the angry few making a ton of noise on the forums?

XD sure i have, read last posts on this thread or better yet: read yourself the IR statements from NCsoft published yesterday.

This is no longer “the fear speach”, but the real figures. HoT has not sold good.

I’m talking about the number of people who don’t like the progression in the game. HoT’s didn’t sell well due to many things but i’m not talking about that.

Sorry i found obvious that if you dont like something you dont buy it. Maybe i should have explained that before… XD
And when i talked about progression, i was talking about jumping from gw2 to hot. Not about masteries, lol XD.

You said people want to progress on mmos, i proved to you that actually, people prefer to stay playing what they like, even with no progression, instead of buying new stuff just because it is the “new stuff”.

We are talking about 2 different things i think. You wanna keep bringing up the fact that HoT’s didn’t sell as well as anet wanted, Thats your big trump card. I’m just saying that the fact the Hot’s didn’t sell well isn’t only due to the changes they made with the game. Mmo’s are dying and also alot of the people who own gw2 before Hot’s quit due to the original game begin boring and stale. it was the biggest problem with gw2 originally not enough challenge. Anet isn’t dumb that’s why they made HoT’s the way it is because people were leaving due to no progression in endgame content and no challenge

I agree that the kind of content is not the only variable. But it must be taken into consideration, when actually the whole game has changed from GW2 to HoT.
They are like 2 different games, for 2 different kind of people ^^. It must have some impact on sales, dont you agree?

And imo, they made HoT cause some people asked for it repeteadly on forums. But time has proved they were just pure noise. They werent enough people, even when they made a lot of noise on forums. HoT was a mistake from the start. It should have LW, and updates like SW, DT or karkaland. Who wanted a payed expansion? the ones who bought it i guess. Who wanted a more hardcore game? the ones who bought it i guess.
And dont get me wrong, they have sold copies, it is not a total failure, they have won money from it. But they had reduced the population drastically and the future is completely on the air. NCsoft’s CEO specifically have said it will be changes (he said they will bring events or items only for HoT buyers, to induce more buys, and they will change the frequency and the kind of content of the updates)
So people who bought X cause it was X, will have to face those “changes”. It cant be good for them right? hopefully it will be good for the ones who have not bought it yet, thought.

maddoctor.2738:

No. HoT has a small amount of content that’s why it didn’t sell as much as expected. If the “Casual” part was the true problem, then all those Free 2 Play players would buy immediately because the core GW2 is as casual as a game can be.

Why would they? they already have access to the core. It’s HoT they don’t want to spend their money on.

Silicato.4603:

If 3 years ago you sold 10, and now you sell 3, your business lost 70% of the market you had. if you add that a percentage of those 3 sales are just completely new players, the scenario is even worst. You lost your capacity of attract people with your last product.
To make it simpler: GW2 was a success cause sold 10. Hot is a fail cause sold 3.

GW2 was a success at release because it sold 10. It failed to keep the interest of 10 and declined to 4. If HoT is a failure then GW2 as a whole is also a failure. Is it?

If you liked pvp, now is full of pveers, with a system corrupted to scale positionts.

PVP before the Season started (but after HoT release) was still fine. Seasons ruined PVP not HoT.

If you liked dungeons (easy, fast and rewarding) now they dont exist in HoT and you have raids instead (completely unfirendly, hardcore and that requires skills and time).

Dungeons were abandoned a long time ago before HoT

If you liked fractals (long, hard and unrewarding) now you have them fast, easy and very rewarding.

Isn’t that a “pro” for HoT? Although the Fractals update is available to everyone and not only HoT owners.

If you liked wvw and its population before, sorry but now is empty, hf!

Not exactly HoT related if the new WvW Borderland (the cause of the problem) is available to everyone and not only HoT owners. At least on my server Eternal Battlegrounds is as busy as ever.

If you liked to farm, congrats cause now you must do it, like it or not XD.

Farming became an issue with the first Queens Jubilee. HoT is nothing compared to other older LS farms or you forgot about everything else?

If you liked GW2 was free, now pay for HoT

You had to pay to access GW2 for most of its lifetime, it was called B2P for a reason. Or you forgot?

Again, maddoctor: my point is that HoT is different in every aspect from GW2.
Im no valuating if one is “better” than the other, thats another debate (thought sales should be a good reference for that… ) and in any case its a subjective debate, where i may think something about it, you the opposite, and both right cause depends on personal tastes.

But the fact HoT is different from GW2 must be the reason why HoT has not been bought as much as expected.

And dont tell me the real reason is cause of the quantity of content or prize, cause those are included among the differences between GW2 and HoT.

They are just 2 different products, for 2 different kind of people… and with 2 different results on sales.

Im sure ncsoft will make anet to come back on track and stop experimenting trying to please people that actually dont reward back to the company (cause that was HoT, a failed attempt to make people who didnt like GW2, to join the party)

Silicato.4603:

Again, maddoctor: my point is that HoT is different in every aspect from GW2.
Im no valuating if one is “better” than the other, thats another debate (thought sales should be a good reference for that… ) and in any case its a subjective debate, where i may think something about it, you the opposite, and both right cause depends on personal tastes.

But the fact HoT is different from GW2 must be the reason why HoT has not been bought as much as expected.

And dont tell me the real reason is cause of the quantity of content or prize, cause those are included among the differences between GW2 and HoT.

They are just 2 different products, for 2 different kind of people… and with 2 different results on sales.

Im sure ncsoft will make anet to come back on track and stop experimenting trying to please people that actually dont reward back to the company (cause that was HoT, a failed attempt to make people who didnt like GW2, to join the party)

This isn’t true.

It’s equally possible that the number of people left playing Guild Wars 2 before HoT came out is smaller than you’re saying and most of them did buy the expansion. You’re simply trying to use sales figures to push your agenda and it doesn’t work that way.

And I’d have preferred more casual content than what we got myself. I want the game more the way you want it, but it doesn’t make you right about sales figures.

If 10 people bought the game and 2 were left playing it and 1 person bought the expansion the uptake on it is 50%. We just don’t have those figures, and unless you work for NcSoft or Anet, neither do you.

The game was clearly a niche game, when compared to a game like WoW. But every MMO is a niche game compared to a game like WoW. That has as much to do with circumstance as it does with anything else, but it’s how the industry is. No one has near the numbers WoW does, even after a particularly disappointing expansion.

Now you’re saying that so many people didn’t buy HoT even thought they bought the core game. Where’s the evidence of how many people hasn’t already walked away from this game, and had no intention of buying HoT no matter what it offered.

Vayne.8563:

Now you’re saying that so many people didn’t buy HoT even thought they bought the core game. Where’s the evidence of how many people hasn’t already walked away from this game, and had no intention of buying HoT no matter what it offered.

To me it is the same, sorry. Dont know what is the difference for you between leaving the game 2 years ago or when HoT launched. To me neither of those bought HoT, thats the fact.
You guys are trying to cover the fact that most of GW2 buyers didnt bought HoT, but it is just evident.
If HoT was so unimportant as you are trying to portrait (“players were not going to buy it no matter what, cause they left x years ago”, as you said…), then why anet made HoT? For new people? Where is that new people? I tell you where: playing GW2 for free. Cause thats what people like. Something like GW2. If people liked HoT, they would have been bought it.

So dont fool yourselfs guys, we already have the official data… It is not longer whining, unofficial expectationts, supositionts, believes or whatever…

HoT was made to sell… and it underperformed in that department so far. Said by ncsoft leader, not just for me. HoT didnt catch enough old players, current ones or new ones. Because of what HoT is or represent.

It is time to correct it or fix it, instead of cover it or removing its importance, dont you agree? Anet or NCsoft can still fix it.

Silicato.4603:

Vayne.8563:

Now you’re saying that so many people didn’t buy HoT even thought they bought the core game. Where’s the evidence of how many people hasn’t already walked away from this game, and had no intention of buying HoT no matter what it offered.

To me it is the same, sorry. Dont know what is the difference for you between leaving the game 2 years ago or when HoT launched. To me neither of those bought HoT, thats the fact.

Good for you?

This is not a for you or for me matter, it’s active users who bought the expansion vs active users who didn’t buy it. Someone who purchased it but hasn’t played it in 2 years doesn’t count because it’s not a missed oportunity.

Feel free to provide evidence to back up that point or just evade it as expected.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent

Saved you guys a few more pages of bickering.

Silicato.4603:

Vayne.8563:

Now you’re saying that so many people didn’t buy HoT even thought they bought the core game. Where’s the evidence of how many people hasn’t already walked away from this game, and had no intention of buying HoT no matter what it offered.

To me it is the same, sorry. Dont know what is the difference for you between leaving the game 2 years ago or when HoT launched. To me neither of those bought HoT, thats the fact.
You guys are trying to cover the fact that most of GW2 buyers didnt bought HoT, but it is just evident.
If HoT was so unimportant as you are trying to portrait (“players were not going to buy it no matter what, cause they left x years ago”, as you said…), then why anet made HoT? For new people? Where is that new people? I tell you where: playing GW2 for free. Cause thats what people like. Something like GW2. If people liked HoT, they would have been bought it.

So dont fool yourselfs guys, we already have the official data… It is not longer whining, unofficial expectationts, supositionts, believes or whatever…

HoT was made to sell… and it underperformed in that department so far. Said by ncsoft leader, not just for me. HoT didnt catch enough old players, current ones or new ones. Because of what HoT is or represent.

It is time to correct it or fix it, instead of cover it or removing its importance, dont you agree? Anet or NCsoft can still fix it.

Dude how is it the same.

You’re saying most people that have EVER bought the game didn’t buy HoT. You’re saying it’s because HoT is harder core.

I’m saying that most of the people who ever left the game left the game before HoT was announced. Only a fraction of those players who bought the original game remain.

So let’s say 500,00 are playing and half of them bought hot. That says something.

But you’d then be ignoring that fact that four million people left before HoT was announced, likely because they were dissatisfied with the core game. HoT may have even brought some of those people back (n fact we know it has in some cases because people have said so).

You have no evidence that more people haven’t left due to the content being too easy than the number of people who didn’t buy HoT because it’s too hard.

but again, what is the goal of making HoT, if is not bringing back old players, current and new ones?
Vayne you are just assuming HoT was made exclusively for the active players, like if we all should eliminate old plyers from the equation. they left, and they dont exist, lol.
And new ones as well, the only thing that matters when you compare sells are active gw2 players vs people who bought HoT.
That is completely… wrong, to say it nicely.

Hot was made to sell, to bring all people in, current, old and new. And it did not make it.
Reasons why, we can debate it. But not the fact that it didnt bring enough old, current or new people.

Silicato.4603:

but again, what is the goal of making HoT, if is not bringing back old players, current and new ones?
Vayne you are just assuming HoT was made exclusively for the active players, like if we all should eliminate old plyers from the equation. they left, and they dont exist, lol.
And new ones as well, the only thing that matters when you compare sells are active gw2 players vs people who bought HoT.
That is completely… wrong, to say it nicely.

Hot was made to sell, to bring all people in, current, old and new. And it did not make it.
Reasons why, we can debate it. But not the fact that it didnt bring enough old, current or new people.

Actually, it’s not unreasonable to believe that HoT was aimed at people who like the game, trying to get people back to the game, but mostly the people coming up through the game who are free to play, hence the comment about not enough free players adopting it.

Logically speaking the game gained a lot of free players. That’s normal. It could have easily gained MORE free players than were currently playing. No one has that info, but Anet did.

What makes you think the expansion wasn’t made for new players? What makes you think Anet doesn’t believe that the reason they need new players is because the game wasn’t engaging/challenging enough?

Your theory could be correct. Your theory could be wrong. But whether it’s correct or wrong can’t be proven by the data you’re providing.

Vayne.8563:

What makes you think the expansion wasn’t made for new players? What makes you think Anet doesn’t believe that the reason they need new players is because the game wasn’t engaging/challenging enough?

I actually think HoT was made it with new, current and old players in mind.
I dont know what we are talking abot anymore XD.
You were the one implying that an old player or a new one was not in the equation for HoT, cause only active players had to be taken into consideration for the sales. if there were 2 players actively playing and 1 buy, that is a 50% success, you said.

I still support that that cant be the case, cause old and new players are part of the expectationts. 2 active players, ok, but they expected to sell 5, (2 active, 1 old and 2 new). if they sold just 1 to an active player, they underperformed in a 4/5 proportion, not in a 50%.

In any case, if HoT was for new ones, old, active players or all at once, it just didnt delivered the sales they expected. Thats waht they said, and everyone can check it.

And about what you said regarding they needed to make Hot, cause they needed new players, cause GW2 wasnt enough challenging or engaging and people left… again, it didnt delivered the sales they expected, so… the changes they made to GW2 with HoT, (whatever the reason, engaging or not) didnt pay off so far.
I think it is easy to conclude therefore that they made the wrong changes, right? other wise they would have win new and more players, as their goal was.

Zeonis.1962:

Jordan.5930:

I agree. I did not get into GW2 so I would have to grind to access gated content! There used to be a time when everything was simply layed out so players could enjoy the game. But now, instead of receiving tokens to get gear, why do I have to spend hours calculating the best use of my gold, to farm a list of mats, just to get ascended weapons to stay relevant, not just on one but on several different classes so I can enjoy different RPing and gameplay aspects, to then access raids. Maybe my sense of what is “fun” is warped, but to me, this is not fun. It might be rewarding, but that fleeting moment of joy does not outweigh the waste of time I could of spent actually enjoying the game.

Two gated content Raids and High level fractals. I’m glad it’s gated keeps crying scrubs like you out of this challenging fun content.

Obviously you hate games that are both challenging and respect the intelligence of its player base. There are other ways to keep the game competitive without it having to be boring or “grindy”. So instead of getting on people’s cases and using the word “scrub” try thinking about how you can improve the game in the best way possible.

Vayne.8563:

You have no evidence that more people haven’t left due to the content being too easy than the number of people who didn’t buy HoT because it’s too hard.

Hmmm….

I’m sure there’s a point in there somewhere, but please don’t explain it! It’s perfect just the way it is!

Sticky

Silicato.4603:

Vayne.8563:

What makes you think the expansion wasn’t made for new players? What makes you think Anet doesn’t believe that the reason they need new players is because the game wasn’t engaging/challenging enough?

I actually think HoT was made it with new, current and old players in mind.
I dont know what we are talking abot anymore XD.
You were the one implying that an old player or a new one was not in the equation for HoT, cause only active players had to be taken into consideration for the sales. if there were 2 players actively playing and 1 buy, that is a 50% success, you said.

I still support that that cant be the case, cause old and new players are part of the expectationts. 2 active players, ok, but they expected to sell 5, (2 active, 1 old and 2 new). if they sold just 1 to an active player, they underperformed in a 4/5 proportion, not in a 50%.

In any case, if HoT was for new ones, old, active players or all at once, it just didnt delivered the sales they expected. Thats waht they said, and everyone can check it.

And about what you said regarding they needed to make Hot, cause they needed new players, cause GW2 wasnt enough challenging or engaging and people left… again, it didnt delivered the sales they expected, so… the changes they made to GW2 with HoT, (whatever the reason, engaging or not) didnt pay off so far.
I think it is easy to conclude therefore that they made the wrong changes, right? other wise they would have win new and more players, as their goal was.

You’re using lackluster sales of HoT to justify an it’s too hard campaign. But since we don’t know why most people left in the first place, we don’t know that the lackluster sales are actually HoT not selling, or just not having enough people still playing. We haev no real idea. You’re acting like you have an idea. I don’t see how you can.

I don’t think, and I’ve said this all along, any group as a huge majority. Maybe there are 30% of the players in your group. But there are 20% of the players in the harder group maybe. Again, pulling numbers out of thin air.

There’s no evidence if HoT wasn’t dirt easy it wouldn’t have sold worse. None at all. You have an agenda and you want to further that agenda, but you’re adding 2 and 2 and getting five. That’s not the way it works.

We know that uptake of the expansion was lackluster. We know it got bad publicity. Presumably most people if they were enjoying the original game, before it launched, would have preordered. I know just about everyone in my guild did, and that’s a couple of hundred people.

So logically if that’s the case, the people who didn’t uptake were people who weren’t regularly playing already, but had just started, ie the free to play players.

In my mind that was the missing part of the equation. Anet couldn’t convert hte free to play players to paying customers. That’s what NcSoft directly said.

Anything else is just speculation.

yall can’t keep spin doctoring stories if you want to help anet. the pvp was a huuge part of the community, and the fact that the vipers stats are restricted by forced pve play is not good. you can’t spin a bad thing and expect a good thing to come out of it. just because people complain, doesn’t mean they want something to fail – in fact….there are many games i don’t complain about…..guess why ?

and here’s the twist, i like hot, it’s really well made and I wish there were more people there too. – but as a pvp’r – namely in wvw ….I’m not an spvpr…..I can see clearly what is upsetting. Luckily i enjoy pve too, but i can’t begin to express how upset i am at how they have forsaken wvw. – i knew in beta i wanted to live ‘there’ – there is gone.

Ricky.4706:

yall can’t keep spin doctoring stories if you want to help anet. the pvp was a huuge part of the community, and the fact that the vipers stats are restricted by forced pve play is not good. you can’t spin a bad thing and expect a good thing to come out of it. just because people complain, doesn’t mean they want something to fail – in fact….there are many games i don’t complain about…..guess why ?

But you see that’s not what we’re discussing at all here. The current conversation is a single person using the lackluster sales of HoT as evidence that most people want the game to be easier, not harder. That HoT is too hard.

Your complaint, as far as I see it, is a valid one. But that’s not what’s being discussed right here. What’s being discussed is someone is saying make the open world easier than it is, which I’m not 100% sure it the right thing to do.

but i am justified in saying, because I was one of those lacking numbers. I only bought hot after they said they were bringing gliding to tyria, and now my revenant is my fav pvp character.

I’m telling you why i wasn’t interested in hot before that, it did nothing for wvw, if anything , they made wvw worse by forcing a game change – in a strategy based environment, and they didn’t address the old issues. I am in 2 very large guilds that don’t log on because they were all wvw also.

so my comments do relate in a huge way.

further, i’ve heard complaints from various groups, dungeon crawlers, factal runners, spvprs,…..it comes down to the same thing…..hot focused on a one size fits all update and ended up shoving many subcultures under the bus as a result.

gw2, is several cultures of mmo gaming, you have dedicated dungeon crawlers…..you have roamers / pugs ( that’s me ), you have spvprs, you have wvwrs, then you have the guys that do open world, then the guys that enjoy rp, and then you have casual groups that do a little bit of everything, groups that want to focus on legendary stuff, even groups that want to focus on making gold…….you can’t take a one size fits all approach to this, because gw2, is a community, of various kinds of cultures.

i think it’s a mistake to think that everyone in gw2 likes to be face rolled and gated by artificial intelligence.

here’s a thought for you, at the heart of any great game in history, is pvp.

player verse player …..that was the foundation of a deck of cards or chess. You never played against chess pieces lol.

It’s a good opinion Ricky, but as you said the game has many cultures, being strictly SPvP yourself you might find it hard to believe that some people just absolutely despise fighting other players. You can easily spot them never sporting a League rank while being a veteran player, they just aren’t interested.

I think one of the big things you pointed out that I agree with is the Viper’s or other unique stats more or less stuck in PvE, unable to be really obtained in WvW. In fact, I would argue that WvWers are having the absolute worst time of everyone, and with SPvP being popular (not balanced, oh hell no its not balanced) I would gamble that SPvP might be more populated than WvW…save Eotm, frigging Edge.

my usage of pvp / wvw is just one example. The common denominator with all the subcultures, is they all feel the same…neglected for this greater idea of rpg utopia.
Not everyone likes the idea of having to play against artificial intelligence. It’s like a good movie, fun the first time I watched it , but dam, how many times do i have to watch it before I can go back to playing cards ?

Just like not everyone likes to player vs player ( mainly because meta-trolls have dominated it, true hard core pvp’rs are the coolest rp’rs, social cats in the world,that’s 0why esports exists to begin with – it is the most social aspect of mmo gaming ) – not everyone likes playing against a computer. Heck, some people don’t want to play against anything and just play dress up in town building stuff and rp’ng …..drunken dwarves are a hoot!! what was second life ? huuuge, pure rp community, zero quests all social. There are people who hate the idea of killing animals, even if virtual, doesn’t mean they can’t enjoy gw2 either – they got shoved under the bus too! lol

Ricky.4706:

my usage of pvp / wvw is just one example. The common denominator with all the subcultures, is they all feel the same…neglected for this greater idea of rpg utopia.
Not everyone likes the idea of having to play against artificial intelligence. It’s like a good movie, fun the first time I watched it , but dam, how many times do i have to watch it before I can go back to playing cards ?

Just like not everyone likes to player vs player ( mainly because meta-trolls have dominated it, true hard core pvp’rs are the coolest rp’rs, social cats in the world,that’s 0why esports exists to begin with – it is the most social aspect of mmo gaming ) – not everyone likes playing against a computer. Heck, some people don’t want to play against anything and just play dress up in town building stuff and rp’ng …..drunken dwarves are a hoot!! what was second life ? huuuge, pure rp community, zero quests all social. There are people who hate the idea of killing animals, even if virtual, doesn’t mean they can’t enjoy gw2 either – they got shoved under the bus too! lol

I don’t really think you understand what Second Life was. Second Life wasn’t a game in the sense of the word at all. It was a virtual world, very different from a game. There was no score in Second Life. There were no achievements. There were no goals. It’s a lot more like mind craft than an MMO but even Mine Craft is a game.

When you play mine craft, you have creatures that attack you. This doesn’t happen in Second Life. Second Life, as a virtual world, was a sand box allowing you to create anything. My wife still has a boutique on Second Life were she sells clothes she designed. She made real world money off running that business. She didn’t really play the game at all, just designed stuff in graphics programs and sold them through the game. I ran a club in Second Life. But I built that club with my own two hands, using graphics I imported from outside the game. People make their own emotes. It was just a blank slate you could create on and other people would then come along and check out your creations.

Some of those creations were games, everything from slingo to some sorts of RPG to some sort of shooter. Most people who played Second Life that I knew didn’t RP at all but used it as a giant chat program.

I do agree with you that certain sub-cultures feel neglected by the direction Anet has gone, including the casual/solo player. Still doesn’t change the fact that what we were arguing about was the cause for the change.

You made a statement in a post. You implied people were wearing blinders because they didn’t see the game wasn’t as popular as it was. I’m saying no one has been saying there here. Most people have acknowledged the game has taken a hit with HoT due to a variety of reasons.

However, we’re arguing over those reasons.

The only thing I’ve ever said about numbers, since before HoT, was that they number of people who left might well be less than the number of free to play players who started playing. And that’s all I’ve said. And that remains true.

For Anet, that means if the number of free to play players who buy the expansion has to go up, which is what they were talking about in their quarterly report.

I truly hope that attempt to make the HoT zones more approachable to more casual players might bring some back to the game. Many of the things being said in this thread I predicted in various raid threads, about the casual audience feeling disenfranchised and leaving. It’s not like it’s a huge surprise to me.

I don’t think that’s the solution either ….imo, there isn’t one big fix….there are many little fixes. And yes, exactly what you said with second life, that would be lions arch, divinity’s reach or any of the other major towns where there is no fighting in town. – that rp group got grounded a long time ago with the mega server. Meanwhile wvw would have done really well with the mega server for balancing out fights – guilds could still fight together, and pugs would have a blast. But scoring poorly matched fights was unreasonable. The mega server is fine for pve environments, but for arguments sake, places like lions arch are not pve – they are the second life type area, and the shops here were for craftsmen to sell their wares. I wanted to have fun being a craftsman and selling off stuff making stuff, but my jeweler got thrown under the bus long long ago, lol.

the problem I’m seeing is there is no one big fix, just a bunch of little fixes that shows a little love to all the sub-cultures. I think that would go much further than trying to do major changes that shows favoritism to any one subculture. The whole hot expansion was pure favoritism to hardcore pve – and if that wasn’t enough, it took the few perks subcultures had away to drive them to hardcore pve. That’s like some new world order move and a lot of people didn’t like it.

you can’t fix gw2 like one big community, you have to address it as the mmorpg subculture melting pot that it is, "and this next patch goes out to the “sub culture of the moment here” " seriously, unless it’s free gold, there isn’t any one thing that’s going to please everyone, there is simply too much variety to consider that a reasonable approach.

Zeonis.1962:

CaptainVanguard.4925:

HoT has too many bad design ideas that aernt just about casual friendly content, honestly its just a poor concept from the start making 4 zones that have group oriented content that will go stale in later game expansions.

This has nothing to do with casual friendly on that front, the casual friendly aspect, is the fact that prior to things like LS1, Fractals, and all that crap, GW2, was an entirley open game that allowed even the laziest player to enjoy it with ease even with some frustration, it wasnt without challenge, Orr was pretty bloody challenging to a solo player and frustrating at times.

But it was at least playable solo, except for that forced final fight with Zhaitan.

Other than that, the world was your oyster, if you wanted to do personal story a few levels lower than you should you could and still reaped the rewards for it. You could do alot of things that the game now forbids you access to.

Alot of changes were made poorly and dont really make any sense to have changed them at all.

E.g. Changing the dungeons multiple times from rush-runs where you rushed a boss to death to gold-sinks to removing even that makes them valueless if your not in the skin-farming market.

Or the fact that we never “had” raids, or fractals where the only content appeal was to a minority of people that wanted that kinda thing.

Its a case of a-net catering to a minority, that minority is a group of people that came from WoW, SWTOR, other mmo’s with group content they’re bored of and want to do it on another MMO, so they changed the casuals mmo into something “they” wanted.

Thats not how it should have gone, or should go.

There are MMO’s designed for people that “dont” want the challenge and should exist for people that “dont”.

So yeah.

GW2 was dying when the game was a purely “open world game”. This game has grown so much since the installations of grouped challenging content like Teq,Fractals, new map meta events and raids. In the end of the day Gw2 is an mmo and people want their characters to progress and obtain special things other players can’t obtain. That’s why grind and challenge exist in mmo’s if they didn’t all mmo’s would die off.

Not necessarily dying, but GW2 had a suffering longevity because of the lack of end game content, but the leveling experience and the open world aspect of the game was one of the most enjoyable parts of the game. Yes the game has grown but has in grown in the way the players want it to. I agree with half of your statement, at the end of the day people do want to to see their characters progress, but not necessarily how you entailed. An emotionally captivating story to see your character grow, new gear, skills, levels, weapons, new areas to explore, learning more about the about the world around you through lore,  companions and friends (this includes NPCs) to be made. These are all aspects of the “progress” that you had mentioned. At the end of the day, do players want things that other players can’t obtain? No I don’t think so. At the end of the day players want to have fun. Fun can be challenging, but it doesn’t have to be the stale grind that most mmos have fallen into, and there are examples of MMOs that are challenging but engaging enough where earning something new doesn’t feel like a grind. 

Vayne, I still dont see how you cant understand that a lack on sells it is a clear consequence from a not desired product. it doesnt matter if you didnt desire it yesterday, 1 month ago 2 years ago or if you are new and you dont like that product.

You are making an effort trying to convince us that HoT didnt sold as expected, cause people didnt liked GW2 and they left a few years ago to never return. But the truth is that it didnt attracted the desired number of people, not old, not active, not new. Cause the product was not attractive (for the reason you want, I no longer going to try to debate the reasons, principally cause i think they are obvious: prize, quantity and kind of content)

You put your known examples, like 100 people in my guild bought it. I can go even farther, they sold around 750k boxes (making an estimated calculation, please dont take that figure as an statement). And still was less than expected… ask yourself why, why 750k is less than expected, imagine what was what they expected and ask yourself why the difference between expected and reality, didnt bought.
And you should reach to the same conclussion as myself: the product sold was not desireble enough.

What i am trying to say is that even after your efforts convincing us, you can never defend that something is liked or is good or is what people desired, when it has not sold as expected. Clearly it was not what people desired. clearly Anet didnt made a product people enough wanted. And they should learn from that, for future iterationts.

Ricky.4706:

I don’t think that’s the solution either ….imo, there isn’t one big fix….there are many little fixes. And yes, exactly what you said with second life, that would be lions arch, divinity’s reach or any of the other major towns where there is no fighting in town. – that rp group got grounded a long time ago with the mega server. Meanwhile wvw would have done really well with the mega server for balancing out fights – guilds could still fight together, and pugs would have a blast. But scoring poorly matched fights was unreasonable. The mega server is fine for pve environments, but for arguments sake, places like lions arch are not pve – they are the second life type area, and the shops here were for craftsmen to sell their wares. I wanted to have fun being a craftsman and selling off stuff making stuff, but my jeweler got thrown under the bus long long ago, lol.

the problem I’m seeing is there is no one big fix, just a bunch of little fixes that shows a little love to all the sub-cultures. I think that would go much further than trying to do major changes that shows favoritism to any one subculture. The whole hot expansion was pure favoritism to hardcore pve – and if that wasn’t enough, it took the few perks subcultures had away to drive them to hardcore pve. That’s like some new world order move and a lot of people didn’t like it.

you can’t fix gw2 like one big community, you have to address it as the mmorpg subculture melting pot that it is, "and this next patch goes out to the “sub culture of the moment here” " seriously, unless it’s free gold, there isn’t any one thing that’s going to please everyone, there is simply too much variety to consider that a reasonable approach.

Very much this. You can’t fix one thing, you’ve got to fix all of it. Everyone needs to feel like part of the family. If you alienate one sub culture, you’ll have the same situation. I’m sure WvW feels like Anet’s red-headed stepchild right now.

But we also know that’s being worked on, it’s just taking a really really long time, because the WvW solution isn’t a simple one.

Vayne.8563:

Ricky.4706:

I don’t think that’s the solution either ….imo, there isn’t one big fix….there are many little fixes. And yes, exactly what you said with second life, that would be lions arch, divinity’s reach or any of the other major towns where there is no fighting in town. – that rp group got grounded a long time ago with the mega server. Meanwhile wvw would have done really well with the mega server for balancing out fights – guilds could still fight together, and pugs would have a blast. But scoring poorly matched fights was unreasonable. The mega server is fine for pve environments, but for arguments sake, places like lions arch are not pve – they are the second life type area, and the shops here were for craftsmen to sell their wares. I wanted to have fun being a craftsman and selling off stuff making stuff, but my jeweler got thrown under the bus long long ago, lol.

the problem I’m seeing is there is no one big fix, just a bunch of little fixes that shows a little love to all the sub-cultures. I think that would go much further than trying to do major changes that shows favoritism to any one subculture. The whole hot expansion was pure favoritism to hardcore pve – and if that wasn’t enough, it took the few perks subcultures had away to drive them to hardcore pve. That’s like some new world order move and a lot of people didn’t like it.

you can’t fix gw2 like one big community, you have to address it as the mmorpg subculture melting pot that it is, "and this next patch goes out to the “sub culture of the moment here” " seriously, unless it’s free gold, there isn’t any one thing that’s going to please everyone, there is simply too much variety to consider that a reasonable approach.

Very much this. You can’t fix one thing, you’ve got to fix all of it. Everyone needs to feel like part of the family. If you alienate one sub culture, you’ll have the same situation. I’m sure WvW feels like Anet’s red-headed stepchild right now.

But we also know that’s being worked on, it’s just taking a really really long time, because the WvW solution isn’t a simple one.

it is very important as well to know who you are alienated in case you deliberately decide to alienate someone.
if there are 2 hardcore players and 8 casuals out there, and you alienate the casuals developing content for hardcores, you may found an issue… however if you alienate hardcores the lost wont be as bloody as the other way.

In any case thinking on their pockets, they should try to make a game for all. and if they cant for time and money restrictionts, they should go with the mayority of the gamer population, to been able to conquer or attract more people.

it’s not a complex one either, wvw just want to zerg each other, for those that want bragging rights, they join guilds and whatever server their guild is on they get ported to.
That would be huge, especially if individual guilds got credit for all the fights they were in that won. You would see wvw come to life, and not be a major server issue because all fights would be balanced.

Plus thats a great way to create a nice social atmosphere , one minute you are fighting against someone, next minute you are fighting with them on the same side, that’s how esport teams are formed.

back in my super hardcore 4 v 4 pvp days in another game, after a ranked match , our team would kill each other off in a ffa lol …it was great! I miss those days! ( and yes, it was possible, because the game was all ffa – so pvp became extremely strategic since you could kill off your own team mates by accident, so it was a riot to win a match, then snuff your bro! )

Silicato.4603:

Vayne, I still dont see how you cant understand that a lack on sells it is a clear consequence from a not desired product. it doesnt matter if you didnt desire it yesterday, 1 month ago 2 years ago or if you are new and you dont like that product.

You are making an effort trying to convince us that HoT didnt sold as expected, cause people didnt liked GW2 and they left a few years ago to never return. But the truth is that it didnt attracted the desired number of people, not old, not active, not new. Cause the product was not attractive (for the reason you want, I no longer going to try to debate the reasons, principally cause i think they are obvious: prize, quantity and kind of content)

You put your known examples, like 100 people in my guild bought it. I can go even farther, they sold around 750k boxes (making an estimated calculation, please dont take that figure as an statement). And still was less than expected… ask yourself why, why 750k is less than expected, imagine what was what they expected and ask yourself why the difference between expected and reality, didnt bought.
And you should reach to the same conclussion as myself: the product sold was not desireble enough.

What i am trying to say is that even after your efforts convincing us, you can never defend that something is liked or is good or is what people desired, when it has not sold as expected. Clearly it was not what people desired. clearly Anet didnt made a product people enough wanted. And they should learn from that, for future iterationts.

I still can’t see how you can not see that if people left the game because it was too easy and never tried HOT because they moved onto other games a year ago, that doesn’t matter. You’re saying X caused people to not buy HoT.

I’m saying X, Y, Z and probably a bunch of other things caused people not to buy HoT.

You’re claiming you know X is the reason. It’s more powerful than Y, Z and everything else. I’m saying you can’t know that.

You’re trying to attribute HoT’s lack of traction to a single cause because you feel it. And I’m playing for the same reasons you are. I don’t want a game far more challenging. That is not why I play these games.

But even though I have similar complaints to you, I disagree your conclusions are the REASON the game didn’t get the uptake Anet wanted it to.

What proof do you have that the reason you’re offering for the luke-warm reception the game received is the actual reason the game received it?

Vayne.8563:

I still can’t see how you can not see that if people left the game because it was too easy and never tried HOT because they moved onto other games a year ago, that doesn’t matter. You’re saying X caused people to not buy HoT.

I’m saying X, Y, Z and probably a bunch of other things caused people not to buy HoT.

You’re claiming you know X is the reason. It’s more powerful than Y, Z and everything else. I’m saying you can’t know that.

You’re trying to attribute HoT’s lack of traction to a single cause because you feel it. And I’m playing for the same reasons you are. I don’t want a game far more challenging. That is not why I play these games.

But even though I have similar complaints to you, I disagree your conclusions are the REASON the game didn’t get the uptake Anet wanted it to.

What proof do you have that the reason you’re offering for the luke-warm reception the game received is the actual reason the game received it?

But wouldn´t that mean that people who sought more challenge clung to GW2 up to shortly before the anouncement and the introduction of HoT and then quit apruptly in large numbers before Anet could show them that the game now goes more into the direction they like?

I also tend to the idea that there are several factors why HoT did not sell as good as it should. My guess for the main offender are raids and jump and run.

Torolan.5816:

Vayne.8563:

I still can’t see how you can not see that if people left the game because it was too easy and never tried HOT because they moved onto other games a year ago, that doesn’t matter. You’re saying X caused people to not buy HoT.

I’m saying X, Y, Z and probably a bunch of other things caused people not to buy HoT.

You’re claiming you know X is the reason. It’s more powerful than Y, Z and everything else. I’m saying you can’t know that.

You’re trying to attribute HoT’s lack of traction to a single cause because you feel it. And I’m playing for the same reasons you are. I don’t want a game far more challenging. That is not why I play these games.

But even though I have similar complaints to you, I disagree your conclusions are the REASON the game didn’t get the uptake Anet wanted it to.

What proof do you have that the reason you’re offering for the luke-warm reception the game received is the actual reason the game received it?

But wouldn´t that mean that people who sought more challenge clung to GW2 up to shortly before the anouncement and the introduction of HoT and then quit apruptly in large numbers before Anet could show them that the game now goes more into the direction they like?

I also tend to the idea that there are several factors why HoT did not sell as good as it should. My guess for the main offender are raids and jump and run.

No people could have been leaving slowly over a long period of time because the game wasn’t hard enough. 4 million people bought the game and a bunch left over ascended gear. We don’t know how big that bunch is, but many of them didn’t feel that forgiving to me.

Would it surprise me if 20% of the population left over that? Not even a bit. And then a gradual attrition over years? It’s what happens in must about every MMO, particularly one without an expansion.

My guess is the game had less players when it went free to play than most people think, and some of those players might come back, but some have found other homes. That’s just the business.

But the difficulty of GW2 steadily increased:
Southsun(hard to and for zerkers, not very popular for that reason)
Queens gauntlet(received praise from hadcolre people)
Fractals(40+ were not that easy)
ls1
ls2 and the associated maps(a small step up, but still)
Wouldn´t that mean that people leaving should have been slowed more and more with each step up? With rising difficulty, you need also better equipment, or the masses won´t make the cut more and more, which reeks like bad business for me.

And with ascended, that kind of armor and weapons enabled people to update their characters and make the first step to a gear treadmill in the eyes of some, no doubt about that. But the leaving would have immediately spiked and people leaving would have been mostly casuals who were unwilling to race instead of walk, or not?

What I am trying to say with that is that you can hardly have both kinds of people, casual and hardcore, leaving for the same reason. Anet did not flip flop with that, content got harder and harder. Some of it was utter garbage in my opinion, but many people probably liked stuff like ls2 for some reason and so gave the impression to Anet that the new path is a good one.

My personal and not too much surprising conclusion from this is that casuals who don´t want to wait for this or work for that are simply a much bigger number than hardcore gamers and should from a company point of view be catered too.

For anyone assuming NCsoft/Anet must be unhappy right now…

“NCSoft, the Korean MMORPG juggernaut, released Q4 2015 earnings today and they reported $196.7M in revenue, the highest in over a year, largely thanks to Guild Wars 2 (the Heart of Thorns expansion launched in Q4). "
…
“NCSoft’s stock (Korea Stock Exchange: 036570) has performed exceptionally well over the last few months, especially since global stocks have been in free-fall since 2016 began. NCSoft’s stock is sitting at multi-year highs.” (http://mmos.com/news/ncsoft-q4-revenues-increase)

“NCsoft says that its QOQ sales and profits were up thanks to “balanced growth from all major IPs” and that “operating marging reached 32% driven by an increase in high-marging overseas royalty revenue.” Guild Wars 2 in particular “surged” upward in the fourth quarter”
…
“NCsoft says GW2 “solidified its position as a main revenue driver by adding on expansion pack sales to stable in-game item sales.” " (http://massivelyop.com/2016/02/10/ncsoft-reports-q4-2015-sales-surge-for-guild-wars-2-bump-for-wildstar/)

So yeah, HoT didn’t sell as “well as expected”. It still “sold well”. Well enough to be among their top 2-3 games and be credited directly by NCsoft.

Anyone thinking NCsoft and Anet are in panic mode… they’re not. Your argument boils down to “they got rich, but not filthy stinking Scrooge McDuck swimming in a tower of gold coins rich. Man what a failure.” Maybe they aren’t streaking through the streets and showering each other with champagne and confetti, but I’d bet they aren’t unhappy either.

It may just be me, but I have noticed fairly consistent overestimates from anytime KDB analysises are brought up that lead me to believe they set a certain higher expectation than reality.

Are we thinking about their reports all wrong then?

All this talk about ‘more challenge’ ‘more casual’ ‘hardcore’… I think those terms are so subjective just saying them doesn’t help Anet at all. Saying “don’t cater to those people, cater to my people for we are the larger demographic” is just useless.

If it were a matter of tough content keeping people out, nobody would do Triple Trouble as long as they had, nor the SilverWastes meta where you have to coordinate lanes, at least roughly understand multiple boss mechanics, and deal with one hit KO hounds in the labyrinth. Tequatl was a huge event, the Marionette was very well received. Tons of people played in the Crown Pavilion. The climactic battle against Scarlet in LA. If it were a simple matter of “make things easier” none of those things would have been as popular as they were.

I think the casual “friendliness” is not the direct issue here. There’s something deeper that is keeping people dissatisfied…

@Daikon,

Been thinking about it for a long time as well, and honestly? I think it might have something to do with just how well GW2 brought in players who would have never played MMOs before.

From my perspective as a Veteran MMO player, pre-HoT GW2 had zero challenge in getting any horizontial progression done, with Liquid Gold being a main driver behind earning the vast majority of items.

Fast-forward to HoT, now certain items are behind working on a map for a currency, and the crowd who originally could get a similar kind of progression anywhere else in Tyria, likely in a gold farming spot like Frostgourge train or World Bosses, find that they have to actually play a certain map for getting say the Bladed Armor.

Is this gating? Maybe, but it also creates a sort of scarcity for the items, which brings us back to the whole horizontial progression. You know very well what the player next to you did when they covered themselves in blades, even the Chest item. And all the players who were so accustomed to being able to do anything, even the most mundane or easy of tasks, find themselves being forced to do content that is a step up from Core, but its the fact that they are being forced that drives them away.

The question we have to ask is if this is a GOOD thing? Because on that same token, there’s no rush for getting the full armor set, you can do so at your own pace! Bladed Armor or items of that nature will always be there for players to gain…

This game probably has the largest amount of individual game cultures in it of any MMO out there. Heck, when SAB comes back I bet we will see a massive influx just from that side-game. There are just so many cultures it becomes hard to please everyone.

Torolan.5816:

But the difficulty of GW2 steadily increased:
Southsun
Risen revamp
Krait revamp
Molten Alliance
Toxic Alliance
Aetherblades
Queens gauntlet
Fractals (40+ were not that easy)
ls2 and the associated maps
Scaling changes to player effectiveness in down-scaled areas
HoT

ANet has been upping the difficulty in increments since shortly after the game. They’ve also nerfed things considerably, which kind of negated some of the ramp-up.

Ferocity provided more crit damage at lower levels
Mob nerf when stats were removed from traits
TD changes

are just three examples. It’s been kind of like a Jekyll and Hyde thing. The thing about the difficulty ramp-ups — including raids and HoT mobs — is that PvE does not stay difficult, especially for those with more skill. Once mob mechanics are learned, they get perceived as easy. So, you get situations where some of the same players are simultaneously resisting any changes to mob difficulty while also griping about the same mobs being too easy.

The only way to win in the eyes of the best players is to make mobs hard enough that a massive chunk of the player base cannot beat them. That hasn’t happened. All HoT did is move the balance point a bit closer to the challenge end. Nor do I expect Anet to move it much further that way.

From my perspective, it seems that meta event design, taxi issues/mega-server and participation loss are the biggest barriers to casual enjoyment of HoT, not the mobs.

Sykper.6583:

You know very well what the player next to you did when they covered themselves in blades, even the Chest item.

Made a poor aesthetic choice (because that’s the main thing i care about)? But then, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and if someone wants to dress certain way, and find it appealing, i’m definitely not going to tell them otherwise.

Sykper.6583:

The question we have to ask is if this is a GOOD thing? Because on that same token, there’s no rush for getting the full armor set, you can do so at your own pace! Bladed Armor or items of that nature will always be there for players to gain…

That is actually untrue. Bladed armor will be there only for as long, as there is enough players to kill all 5 night bosses and get the map to t4. And only if you manage to get on that map. Come next expansion, when still remaining players will move to new areas, and there might be a serious problem for those that didn’t manage to get chestpiece yet.

Sykper.6583:

This game probably has the largest amount of individual game cultures in it of any MMO out there. Heck, when SAB comes back I bet we will see a massive influx just from that side-game. There are just so many cultures it becomes hard to please everyone.

Pleasing a single subculture is not something that an expansion should be doing, however. Definitely not when it is the first expansion to the game.

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

You know very well what the player next to you did when they covered themselves in blades, even the Chest item.

Made a poor aesthetic choice (because that’s the main thing i care about)? But then, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and if someone wants to dress certain way, and find it appealing, i’m definitely not going to tell them otherwise.

Given that Arenanet saw fit to release that ‘Slayer Outfit’, I am thinking there are some players who want to look like someone from Mad Max. I was still just making an example though, I want that Heavy Leystone Armor, that helm has got that imposing brutish look.

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

The question we have to ask is if this is a GOOD thing? Because on that same token, there’s no rush for getting the full armor set, you can do so at your own pace! Bladed Armor or items of that nature will always be there for players to gain…

That is actually untrue. Bladed armor will be there only for as long, as there is enough players to kill all 5 night bosses and get the map to t4. And only if you manage to get on that map. Come next expansion, when still remaining players will move to new areas, and there might be a serious problem for those that didn’t manage to get chestpiece yet.

The idea behind Megaservers was I believe to address this.

Neither of us has the numbers, but I am willing to gamble there will still be at least 1 post for each map in HoT attempting to populate to get the currency done. And the currency has many uses, we only need to look at collections to figure out the different incentive paths.

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

This game probably has the largest amount of individual game cultures in it of any MMO out there. Heck, when SAB comes back I bet we will see a massive influx just from that side-game. There are just so many cultures it becomes hard to please everyone.

Pleasing a single subculture is not something that an expansion should be doing, however. Definitely not when it is the first expansion to the game.

What would you say was the only subculture pleased by this expansion? I will say though that WvW is probably not the one you might list, I think everyone knows that ‘revamp’ isn’t out yet when it should be…