We said we didn't want the trinity
Tank stats and heal specs have been in the game since release. It is nothing new in the slightest.
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Piken Square
I think we can grow closer to the trinity circle without being immersed in it.
I also would say, that face tanking and proper healing take skill.
Crystal Desert
Because having to build more defense/support/control than full Berserker, and having trait lines that are very supportive automatically means trinity, right?
This thread will go places.
Not good places, but places.
This thread will go places.
Not good places, but places.
+1
Right, because stacking in a corner while dodging obvious telegraphs to mitigate all damage is incredibly skillful. Trinity = Build variety in PvE. Enough said.
Thank you for speaking on behalf of everyone, I missed the meeting where we voted you in as our community voice.
There is nothing wrong with what they are doing, you can’t have challenging raids and or content with what we had. Realistically standing still and mashing a rotation is not challenging and quite frankly myself and some others find it dull and boring. I’m ok with them changing it up, so I hope you realize now that you do not speak for everyone.
Right, because stacking in a corner while dodging obvious telegraphs to mitigate all damage is incredibly skillful. Trinity = Build variety in PvE. Enough said.
Doesn’t making party healing required encourage stacking even more?
There are no single target heals, they’re all either personal or area of effect and balanced around hitting multiple targets. Which means, if our self healing isn’t sufficient, clustering up is going to be encouraged unless mechanics specifically punish that, but such mechanics aren’t exclusive to the trinity.
Standing still and mashing a rotation is exactly what you get with the trinity.
Who is “we”? I’m not a part of “we.” I’m looking forward to the changes. It’s a fresh start and will integrate wonderfully with the current system.
Tank stats and heal specs just reduce the required player skill in encounters while the only thing they increase is the duration of the fight.
We didn’t want any of this. GW2 is a dynamic game unlike any other because it requires that fast twitch reactionary play. If we wanted to face tank and heal, we’d play something else.
Pushing the trinity is lazy and unoriginal—two things I don’t tend to think of when I’m talking about GW2 content. There’s no innovation here.
No YOU didn’t want it. Don’t loop me in with it. I can’t wait for this all dps trash meta to leave and never come back.
GW2 not having a trinity was one of it’s biggest strengths IMO.
I also would say, that face tanking and proper healing take skill.
Please elaborate how standing still and letting a boss hit you in the face while a healer plays whack-a-mole on the HP bars is skillful?
I also would say, that face tanking and proper healing take skill.
Please elaborate how standing still and letting a boss hit you in the face while a healer plays whack-a-mole on the HP bars is skillful?
For face tanking, it’s normally due to things like properly managing active mitigation and anticipating times of high spike damage, kiting, and knowing when to direct your resources to more reactionary purposes.
In most MMOs that use it, healing is typically about managing energy such that you’re able to maintain efficient healing, as AoE healing tends to be less efficient than single target, and powerful healing tends to be more expensive than minor point for point while still stopping anyone from dying.
However, Guild Wars 2 doesn’t have the same degree of long term resources, so the impact of using a major healing cooldown are felt immediately, meaning that unless you’re going to win soon, it’s not going to be worth using say, virtue of resolve compared to maintaining the passive effect of it.
The difficult part seems like it’s going to be about the action economy. Determining exactly how little healing you can get away with, and then looking to contribute things other than healing while still keeping people from outright dying.
It’s sort of a similar idea to armies in a late game focused RTS strategy. Generally, you want as efficient and small an army as possible to defend against scouted attacks, but your main goal is to focus on resource generation and teching, every resource spent on defense is resources not going to your primary strategy.
(edited by Eponet.4829)
GW2 not having a trinity was one of it’s biggest strengths IMO.
And the zerker meta it’s greatest weakness.
I don’t wanna play an MMO made for 14 year olds anymore. It got boring within a month… It lasted 3 years…
maybe they should make dodging into walls just not work
Standing still and mashing a rotation is exactly what you get with the trinity.
Standing still and mashing a rotation is what we already have with stacking and blasting fields.
it’s true, combo fields are cancerous
I Think I would be okay with the Trinity as long as every class could fill every role, albeit in a different manner from each other.
I can tell you I always built my PVE character to be as tanky as possible, full Soldiers armor with Zerker Trinks/Weps on my old main my Hammer Guardian, I just lied when joiing 5 man groups (no one seemed to notice).
This expansion I’m going the same path with my Reaper.
Corner stackers got rekt.
I can tell you I always built my PVE character to be as tanky as possible, full Soldiers armor with Zerker Trinks/Weps on my old main my Hammer Guardian, I just lied when joiing 5 man groups (no one seemed to notice).
This expansion I’m going the same path with my Reaper.
Give celestial a try. Guardians make good use of every single stat in the game, especially hammer builds with their spammable symbol+symbols inflict burning
Corner stackers got rekt.
We’re moving from corner stacking to face-tank stacking. Who do you think got rekt?
Tank stats and heal specs have been in the game since release. It is nothing new in the slightest.
The stats were in the game and not forced upon us.
They’re pushing trinity so players can play how they want. How is forcing tank stats and heals upon us letting us play how we want?
We want skillful, reactionary play. We take the increased risk of running glass for the reward of faster runs. Fail at character placement and you die.
The reason you don’t see the big timer PvE guys posting about this is because they’re waiting to test it out. They think they can still zerk through it all, but if and when they can, will they just nerf us down to force this meta?
Oh, you have already played all the new content then? You have no idea whatsoever if it is “forced upon us”.
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Piken Square
Amusingly, running groups where no one is using zerker tends to be the most FUN. That is why we are here right? Not to maximize gear per time but to actually have fun while playing right?
Also amusingly…I’ve been in full zerker runs, and been in runs where no one is running zerkers and we actually clear the trash. Get more gear from the trash (and seen 2 precursors drop while clearing trash) and ironically the clear time is not that much longer when you support each other.
Cheesing a boss with corner stacking is boring and lazy gameplay, I find it is far more challenging and fun to pull 3 groups of silvers and try and keep EVERYONE alive while taking them down. You can’t dodge everything with that many enemies, so you have to make priority to what you get hit with, what you block, what you try to block for others, and what healing you are capable of. THAT is fun.
Traditional trinity can’t work with the current UI and the current system of targeting and aggro, we’ll probably get something original , we can only wait and see.
Oh, you have already played all the new content then? You have no idea whatsoever if it is “forced upon us”.
The dev said “zerk won’t cut it.” What does that imply to you?
Who is “we?”
10 people on the forums? 20? Do you know how many people actually play the game?
to all of those posting here:
people wanted build variety. The need to take other builds and not just the same boring zerker meta. However that didn’t imply trinity.
There are so many ways to force a build variety that doesn’t involve getting a dedicated healer. So I’m very much ashamed at Anet’s decision here.
Corner stackers got rekt.
We’re moving from corner stacking to face-tank stacking. Who do you think got rekt?
The people who only wanted to see characters butts when the camera is stuck in a corner.
Since launch, my guildies and I have been using builds specifically meant to function as the roles of the “traditional” trinity (dps, tank, heal) and GW2’s version of it (damage, control, support).
The strength of GW2 was always the fact we were not locked into those by profession. Sure, some professions are better at some roles, but almost every profession can fulfill any role of either trinity.
Both in GW1 and GW2 half the fun was experimenting with different builds and see what they can do.
Perhaps the only RP-oriented guild on the server
Main Character: Farathnor (sylvari ranger) 1 of 22
Gw2 launched with the user base from the original game and while the original game didn’t have a tank spec seeing how they lacked Taunt. It did have a heal spec and since it was mainly gw1 players at launch it makes sense such a thing would continue even more so with legendary armor.
Heck if heal output would be calculated into an event I’d run heals but it doesn’t so I don’t this is something that has existed since the beginning of this game. If you want to tank then go PvP and if you want to heal then WvW. Tanking in PvP works because you have to tank points and kite enemy players to gang up on ya. Healing in WvW has always worked since your fighitng other people and not insta kill bosses so a single pure heal guardian can lead a zerg to victory. Well back when they had tomes and I suppose that replacement skills sorta works…
Speak for yourself OP, not for me.
I welcome a move closer to trinity. I am fed up of the zerker meta and want an actual role to fill.
OMG, I can’t just skip most of the content and then stack in a corner spamming1 until my loot sacks get dispensed?! Oh, the horror. That’s it, I’m quitting the game.
I think its important that we move to a position where more then one role exists, and unless there is some level requirement to using other roles, the zerker meta will continue.
PRAISE GEESUS
I can tell you I always built my PVE character to be as tanky as possible, full Soldiers armor with Zerker Trinks/Weps on my old main my Hammer Guardian, I just lied when joiing 5 man groups (no one seemed to notice).
This expansion I’m going the same path with my Reaper.
You realise you’re running 60% zerker with that setup, of course no one notices if the group is running at 92% instead of 100% thats got to be within player skill differences. You being a liar though is an issue…
Why do people often assume that being tanky or having a healer means face-tanking. The content is meant to be very difficult. So you will have to pay attention to the enemy, dodge and use all your active defenses intelligently like before AND still need the extra healing/tankiness to survive. So essentially, you make sure to avoid the biggest chunk of damage, and the support profession makes sure you can survive the small chunks you can’t avoid.
Also, they don’t force you to play a healer or be tanky if you don’t want to. You’re free to play whichever role you want in the raid. But if you go DPS, someone will have to be more supporty.
Traditional trinity can’t work with the current UI and the current system of targeting and aggro, we’ll probably get something original , we can only wait and see.
I’m just waiting for meters, role checks, and gear inspect. Those are the necessary tools to implement a trinity with forced roles such as dedicated healers.
Why do people often assume that being tanky or having a healer means face-tanking. The content is meant to be very difficult. So you will have to pay attention to the enemy, dodge and use all your active defenses intelligently like before AND still need the extra healing/tankiness to survive. So essentially, you make sure to avoid the biggest chunk of damage, and the support profession makes sure you can survive the small chunks you can’t avoid.
Also, they don’t force you to play a healer or be tanky if you don’t want to. You’re free to play whichever role you want in the raid. But if you go DPS, someone will have to be more supporty.
So clearly this is saying that someone will be forced to heal…whether they want to or not. That someone will inevitably be the profession that has the highest healing throughput and effectiveness at healing. I so don’t miss the days of WoW where my feral druid and enhancement shaman always got drafted into healing duty.
As far as the OP’s statement goes….“we” said we didn’t want the trinity by our original purchase of GW2….as that was one of the cornerstones of the game…clearly documented by the three roles being listed as damage, support, and control….not damage, tanking, healing. Just because some people couldn’t be bothered to read the game description, or because ANET is back peddling on the product they sold us, does not make that any less of a valid issue.
Lets get something straight here.
Anet was never against the trinity, what they were against was what the basic idea of the trinity has been for a long time. Where a specific class was shoehorned into a specific role. Anet did not want that, it did not want one class to only be viable in one role, they wanted each class to be able to accomplish the soft trinity (damage, control, support) in their own ways.
Sadly things did not go how they initially wanted them to and things turned into the zerker meta which is as unhealthy as unhealthy gets for GW2. PvE content, even with healers and “tanks” will not just be standing around face tanking, they have already shown even with temporary content, even with Living World content, that those boss fights involve movement, getting around and avoiding. They have applied those characteristics to enemies in HoT. Many people have -seen- it in the Beta Weekend Events.
The current zerker meta is not skill, its just sitting in a corner, stacked up, mashing buttons. At least PvP has variety, has goal purposes for different stat setups. PvE does too, Anet is just now trying to get people to utilize them because they have been there the entire time, people are just not touching them due to what the content has brought so they are trying to fix that.
They aren’t back peddling, they are just trying to fix what needs to be fixed so that their PvE experience can be far, far more enjoyable and challenging.
Or would you all rather think there is some sort of big huge conspiracy and be all paranoid? Because that is unhealthy too.
I have been making the argument in my guild that the druid is simply the medium armor equivalent of the elementalist and the guardian.
That said, if group healing becomes a thing required, i think they will need to extend the capability – in earnest – to at least 3/4 of the professions we have now in order to maintain the bring the player/not the profession mentality we (many of us) have now.
Standing still and mashing a rotation is exactly what you get with the trinity.
Standing still and mashing a rotation is exactly what you get with BAD ENCOUNTER DESIGN.
Players don’t do it because the classes promote it… they do it because the encounters permit it.
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.
Standing still and mashing a rotation is exactly what you get with the trinity.
Standing still and mashing a rotation is exactly what you get with BAD ENCOUNTER DESIGN.
The thing is, we have zero evidence that ArenaNet got any better in encounter design.
Even worse, they are not going to change the game we currently have.
Which means, considering how little content HoT will bring, that 99% of the game still rewards the same meta we have today – berserker over everything else and no point in anyone healing the others.
So the Druid and the Ventari Revenant are pretty much useless in almost the entire game. And that’s even after HoT. Plus, if 99% of the game rewards one meta, it’s unlikely that people are going to change their builds just because of the remaining 1%. Even if raiding is well designed and actually rewards a more balanced playstyle, the fact it’s a VERY small part of the game, plus the weekly lockout, plus how raiding is basically a niche activity, all mean that those specs and builds that go beyond berserker are not going away any time soon.
And really, that’s assuming the raids will be well designed. Which brings us back to the beginning of my post – what evidence do we have that ArenaNet can actually make good encounters? The Mordremoth Invasions? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!
I think the Druid’s purpose is to keep the Zerk DPSers alive a bit longer during Raids and higher level fractals.
RIP City of Heroes
As far as the OP’s statement goes….“we” said we didn’t want the trinity by our original purchase of GW2….as that was one of the cornerstones of the game…clearly documented by the three roles being listed as damage, support, and control….not damage, tanking, healing. Just because some people couldn’t be bothered to read the game description, or because ANET is back peddling on the product they sold us, does not make that any less of a valid issue.
At launch, I think everyone was open-minded and willing to give a shot to this new type of party mechanics, but you have to be blind to not see how hard it failed. DPS/Control/Support never happened, the reality was DPS/DPS/DPS. That design led the competitive PvE to a dead-end, and a very shallow one at that.
I respect companies that innovate, but something’s only innovation when it’s at least as good as what was there before, and GW2’s party mechanics clearly didn’t improve on the classic trinity of tank/DPS/healer.
I respect Arenanet if they have the guts to throw that design away and replace it with something that is perhaps less innovative but a lot more fun, compelling, strategic and inclusive for the majority of its player base.
That said, I think they’re just trying to make a place for players who like healers and tanks. I don’t think they’re forcing those roles on us. I think they’re just trying to make them playable and useful in groups. ie: You can go without a tank or a healer, but if you use those roles, they won’t be a waste of a group spot.
(edited by Bearhugger.4326)
Thank you for speaking on behalf of everyone, I missed the meeting where we voted you in as our community voice.
There is nothing wrong with what they are doing, you can’t have challenging raids and or content with what we had. Realistically standing still and mashing a rotation is not challenging and quite frankly myself and some others find it dull and boring. I’m ok with them changing it up, so I hope you realize now that you do not speak for everyone.
Lol stand ing still and mashing a rotation is the hall mark of trinity games. In fact to break that up, they added action elements.
The flaws of gw2 combat had nothing do with healing and everything to do with weak enemy and encounter design.
Undoubtfuly, the Berserker armor requires the most skill for me.
But speaking from Fractals as one of the more challenging contents up until now, mobs like the Diviner or the Champion Ettin will strike a bad or even average Zerker down at least once in an encounter, and if you do not have a Thief/Warrior heavy group that is a heavy burden to bear if the mob decides that he wants to finish the downed player. And no, you can´t stack in the corner with the Ettin or burst it down quickly if everyone is a Zerker like the three poor Golems in Sorrows, it simply does not work in that way and outlasts your attempts to down it in a 1 minute time window.
So is that something you really want everyone to wear if you want to design a game for everyone, not just fast reflex players? In every game I played up until now, the DpS guy was the most challenging class to stay alive but still the most available to get because people are impatient for whatever reason while playing games.