Guild Wars 2

Relatives who tried to kill each other…the guild wars kinda thing that happened, Ascolonian king bein too racist towards krytans to ask for help or flee there…ya real great family you got there trying to claim more land…humans have proved foolish and destroyed Orr already once themselves, they don’t have the population to re inhabit it anyway, give it to races without a home or that won’t nuke it again

Gandarel.5091:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Gandarel.5091:

Thief = invading charr who later would try to claim based on that assault.

the charrs, kryta, and the pact all have their separate rules. there is no UN equivalent of tyria, an organization to rule nations.

and orr has no ties with any of them. orr and kryta were separate nations, just like the US and canada, for example. “we’re also human” doesn’t make a valid argument to claim a land that was never yours to begin with.

Once part of the same empire, and the rulers of Orr and Ascalon are relatives to Kryta’s royality. So basically Orr is the royal line’s possession, if no Orrian descendant is alive then it goes to the next in the line – even if that is a distant relative.

that’s assuming all non-humans are fine with giving kryta the most important nautical choke point in the continent.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Gandarel.5091:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Gandarel.5091:

Thief = invading charr who later would try to claim based on that assault.

the charrs, kryta, and the pact all have their separate rules. there is no UN equivalent of tyria, an organization to rule nations.

and orr has no ties with any of them. orr and kryta were separate nations, just like the US and canada, for example. “we’re also human” doesn’t make a valid argument to claim a land that was never yours to begin with.

Once part of the same empire, and the rulers of Orr and Ascalon are relatives to Kryta’s royality. So basically Orr is the royal line’s possession, if no Orrian descendant is alive then it goes to the next in the line – even if that is a distant relative.

that’s assuming all non-humans are fine with giving kryta the most important nautical choke point in the continent.

Guys seriously, who would they trade with? Only more humans are out there, and the those humans never traded with other races and would probably dislike the idea of the holy grounds of Orr are run by “unworthy” races. And with other threats and a fragile union between the races, who would be so dumb to claim it from the humans? As I said, it’s like humans claiming the far shiverpeaks or charrs the depths of tyria after Primordus is gone. I’m sure thar’s full of asura and dwarven artifacts too.

EVERY RACE will probably get THEIR own lost grounds back.

Gandarel.5091:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Gandarel.5091:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Gandarel.5091:

Thief = invading charr who later would try to claim based on that assault.

the charrs, kryta, and the pact all have their separate rules. there is no UN equivalent of tyria, an organization to rule nations.

and orr has no ties with any of them. orr and kryta were separate nations, just like the US and canada, for example. “we’re also human” doesn’t make a valid argument to claim a land that was never yours to begin with.

Once part of the same empire, and the rulers of Orr and Ascalon are relatives to Kryta’s royality. So basically Orr is the royal line’s possession, if no Orrian descendant is alive then it goes to the next in the line – even if that is a distant relative.

that’s assuming all non-humans are fine with giving kryta the most important nautical choke point in the continent.

Guys seriously, who would they trade with? Only more humans are out there, and the those humans never traded with other races and would probably dislike the idea of the holy grounds of Orr are run by “unworthy” races. And with other threats and a fragile union between the races, who would be so dumb to claim it from the humans? As I said, it’s like humans claiming the far shiverpeaks or charrs the depths of tyria after Primordus is gone. I’m sure thar’s full of asura and dwarven artifacts too.

EVERY RACE will probably get THEIR own lost grounds back.

there’s no economic interest in those areas.

but orr is possibly the best-placed harbor for tyria to trade with the rest of the world. no one’s going to just give it away for free because humans said please.

your views of problems like this are very naive, to say the least. that kind of stuff is what triggers entire wars, you know. matter of fact, read sea of sorrows. kryta tried to go to war against lion’s arch, because they decided they were entitled to it.

it’s not as simple as “i have royal blood, thus i own this place”. non-humans couldn’t give less of a kitten about human royal blood. they think monarchy is a stupid system, but they respect it as long as the monarchs stay put on their own kingdoms, instead of randomly deciding that they’re “rightful owners” of this and that.

might i remind you that the charr and humans have been at war for hundreds of years for that very same reason?

Most times, when the members of a ruling family were married to another nation, they lost claim to that original nation. That kept one nation from absorbing the other. So the general custom (and law in most cases) of passing the throne down was superceded by the division of the two nations. And even then, it was the law that enforced it. So nations thst did get absorbed was only done so according to the greater military might of the absorbing nations. That law needs to be backed up with military might since the absorbed nations probably had laws against it. How do you descided who’s law to follow? When we deal with fallen nations, there is no law to reference.

The same way the grawl can’t cite their hypothetical tribal law about how the entire human nation of orr is invalided according to grawl customs and traditions of the tribe that may have been descimated when Orr was established. Do we just descide to hand the land to the grawl?

As far as the other nations being involved, Bruno is correct. Handing a potential enemy the power to destroy your own nation is worse than risking a bad relationship with them. This fact wouldn’t be lost on any half descent ruler of any nation.

To add onto the last 2 posts, from what it seems krytans military is weaker than the slyvari wardens, any charr legion, or the lionguard at this time so they don’t have the military might to claim anything, an Asura krew can set up a lab anywhere as they usually know the risks involved with a lab far from rata sum and a group of norn could decide to go make a small hunting lodge to hunt large creatures in Orr or some risen champs still waiting around, no one would mind those but a full fledged human kingdom is a different story that they have no ability to control

oh and one more thing: there’s the geographical issue.

kryta doesn’t have much of a coast, what with the dominion of winds, the sylvaris, lion’s arch, etc. in the way. what little they have would have to cross areas that are the domain of other nations just to get to orr.

but really, the biggest thing is that whoever owns orr owns the sea trade, which is why i think everyone will end up agreeing that it’s better to leave it as neutral ground than to risk multiple large-scale wars. of course, treaties would have to be written, rules of portage and exploration set, but in the end, the best solution for all nations is “everyone gets a piece of the pie, no one gets everything”.

Well it will be interesting to see humans claiming Gunnar’s hold, + an asura underground city + the tunnels below Ascalon. But I think that’s just the slice of the pie, being able to control the underground tunnels, for example between the Black Citadel, ofc isn’t that important at all.

You think there are less minerals and artifacts below the ground? Btw I don’t know what kind of resources are you talking about in Orr that other places don’t have.

And again. What kind of trade routes are you talking about and why would humans block their allies? An alliance is built on trust. Taking away the ancestral human land, then what right do the charr have for Ascalon?

Orr only has orichalcum and other high-end materials because that is a high-end zone. Just like Frotsgorge Sound.

And btw I was thinking about the Krytan navy too for some months ago. Now there’s the sea of sorrows book, and Kryta clearlys had a navy huge enough to set a blockade to the pirate LA. There’s an area west to LA which is unaccessible to players. What if that too belongs to Kryta and has some harbors? I know there are some tengu guards and a door leading there from LA, but the dominion of winds clearly ends on the southwestern side of the undiscowered region.

Maybe that door only servers to show that the Tengu still exist.

Orr was a human kingdom, the FIRST human kingdom in Tyria, and by any means the right to claim it falls to humanity. Not Kryta especially, but that is where any claims would most likely come from.

I am not saying it should happen, but any other species that wants to keep the current spirit of cooperation should respect that. Now i can think of some races that wouldn’t, but currently Kryta has so many things to deal with that Orr is most likely far from anyone’s mind.

The Pact deals with Orr and will do so for quite some time, and i can imagine that the Pact will eventually decide about the future of Orr, for the lack of anyone else wanting to do so.

Currently there is no trade between Tyria and other continents, so Orr is not needed for that. It may change in the future, but such things are many years ahead and at the moment Orr is just too unimportant for pretty much everyone (after the fall of Zhaitan) except scholars.

none have a right to claim it in any way.
my gess is that it will become something like LA or be a area where all races has part of the control as orr ismply is to importent to give away.

Korsbaek.9803:

none have a right to claim it in any way.
my gess is that it will become something like LA or be a area where all races has part of the control as orr ismply is to importent to give away.

Wrong. By human law, if a relative of the last king of Orr is found, this person would have the right to restore the kingdom of Orr. Just like Wade Samuelsson has the right to restore the kingdom of Ascalon, he just chose to not do that, so he wouldn’t risk the treaty with the Charr.

Even IRL history can prove you wrong. Royal blood can be good reason for trying to make a claim for the throne, but in the end this is always only excuse to power grab attempt and nothing more. Nobody cares about claims from descendants of royal bloodlines if they don’t have enough power behind them to come and take it.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Korsbaek.9803:

none have a right to claim it in any way.
my gess is that it will become something like LA or be a area where all races has part of the control as orr ismply is to importent to give away.

Wrong. By human law, if a relative of the last king of Orr is found, this person would have the right to restore the kingdom of Orr. Just like Wade Samuelsson has the right to restore the kingdom of Ascalon, he just chose to not do that, so he wouldn’t risk the treaty with the Charr.

the humans will only have the right to claim it IF the other races give them that right else they have nothing what so ever so it all comes down to what the united front whats and nothing of what humans want

Well if they still want humans to fight alongside them and not agains them, and also ensure that what was asuran will belong to the asuras after they take back the tunnels, no other races shall claim the land but humans.

I’m not saying other races can’t have some trading outposts and similar things, nor that they will be banned from the land, but Orr overall will be under human control I’m sure.

Leaders in Tyria aren’t mentally challenged. Norns won’t say “Dibs Orr lololol”. Charrs claiming holy grounds with the background that the sinking of Orr was caused by them isn’t really valid either.

Sylvari may help to cleanse the land, but the Pale tree isn’t a conquerror, has no intentions to take over Tyria.. yet.

im saying that none of the races are going to claim it as there land its going to be a nuetral ground just like LA is so its going to be gowned with representivs of the people thats going to live there and not be under HUMAN control but humans will still have a word so will all the other races that live there

im not saying that the other races will claim it lol im saying that none of the races has the right to claim it and none of them most likely will

Again as has been repeated, no one outside Kryta gives a skritts kitten about royal blood and kitten it means 0, nothing, squat! Also ya go ahead if the humans want to try and live underground they can try or if they wanna live in the freezing far Shiverpeaks they can try as well, but they’d likely fail or not want to! Also no it wasn’t the charts fault the king was psycho/tempted by adadon to basically nuke Orr into the ocean!

Korsbaek.9803:

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Korsbaek.9803:

none have a right to claim it in any way.
my gess is that it will become something like LA or be a area where all races has part of the control as orr ismply is to importent to give away.

Wrong. By human law, if a relative of the last king of Orr is found, this person would have the right to restore the kingdom of Orr. Just like Wade Samuelsson has the right to restore the kingdom of Ascalon, he just chose to not do that, so he wouldn’t risk the treaty with the Charr.

the humans will only have the right to claim it IF the other races give them that right else they have nothing what so ever so it all comes down to what the united front whats and nothing of what humans want

Again wrong. The humans have the right by their law. If the other races give a kitten about this law is not important, but they better do out of respect. All I am saying is that the humans have a solid reason to claim Orr and they can back it up. No other race has such a solid claim by their own law.
Of course other races can speak against the humans restoring the kingdom of Orr, but from a judicial standpoint they have nothing to be pitted against the humans, if they manage to get hold of a rightfull heir.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Korsbaek.9803:

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Korsbaek.9803:

none have a right to claim it in any way.
my gess is that it will become something like LA or be a area where all races has part of the control as orr ismply is to importent to give away.

Wrong. By human law, if a relative of the last king of Orr is found, this person would have the right to restore the kingdom of Orr. Just like Wade Samuelsson has the right to restore the kingdom of Ascalon, he just chose to not do that, so he wouldn’t risk the treaty with the Charr.

the humans will only have the right to claim it IF the other races give them that right else they have nothing what so ever so it all comes down to what the united front whats and nothing of what humans want

Again wrong. The humans have the right by their law. If the other races give a kitten about this law is not important, but they better do out of respect. All I am saying is that the humans have a solid reason to claim Orr and they can back it up. No other race has such a solid claim by their own law.
Of course other races can speak against the humans restoring the kingdom of Orr, but from a judicial standpoint they have nothing to be pitted against the humans, if they manage to get hold of a rightfull heir.

It wasd their land? Theirs. That’s that simple. Nothing to do with laws.

I don’t think other races will react as “omg omg new soil that used to be a holy human lend for more tha a thousand years and is totally out of our reach while humans are just claiming the land back LET’S SETTLE THERE”

Yes guys we can argue about basically everything, mostly about what is rightful and what is not. But if everyone start to use their brains without just arguing for the sake of arguing everyone knows who has the right to claim Orr.

Humans decided not to attempt to take back Ascalon. I don’t think they would let charrs or others take this land too.

dunnberry.2964:

Again as has been repeated, no one outside Kryta gives a skritts kitten about royal blood and kitten it means 0, nothing, squat! Also ya go ahead if the humans want to try and live underground they can try or if they wanna live in the freezing far Shiverpeaks they can try as well, but they’d likely fail or not want to! Also no it wasn’t the charts fault the king was psycho/tempted by adadon to basically nuke Orr into the ocean!

Guess if some humans would make their own group with own laws and just decide that killing 10 charrs every day is just fine, nobody will give a skritt about that because why would they have to care about other nations’ laws? Oh wait they are called Separatists and are being hunted down. Maybe others’laws matter after all.

Not respecting each others’ methods is never a working way in an alliance. And I don’t see the point for other races to claim a land just because it’s there.

You can argue for the sake of arguing but it’s just pointless.

Who gives a skritt about asuras telling that Metrica is their land? They don’t have the permission of the Queen. So according to your logic, humans could rightfully claim that land from the asura because who gives a skritt about their laws and rights?

And it was not the king who did this to Orr and the Vizier didn’t go “pscyho”. And it was the charr invasion’s result. Get your fatcs right first.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Korsbaek.9803:

none have a right to claim it in any way.
my gess is that it will become something like LA or be a area where all races has part of the control as orr ismply is to importent to give away.

Wrong. By human law, if a relative of the last king of Orr is found, this person would have the right to restore the kingdom of Orr. Just like Wade Samuelsson has the right to restore the kingdom of Ascalon, he just chose to not do that, so he wouldn’t risk the treaty with the Charr.

Not exactly true, either. The example used is horrible because Ascalon isn’t a Human Kingdom. Ascalon was originally a Charr kingdom and the Charr took it back from the human interlopers who squatted in it for a few generations. Now, whether you agree with either their logic, leadership or tactics is immaterial, Ascalon is, once again, back in the paws of it’s rightful owners. Wade has no claim to it. He’s the last upstart lord in the long line of upstart lords who brought war and destruction to the land, and has wisely decided that fighting over it isn’t in anyone’s best interest.

Drakkon.4782:

Not exactly true, either. The example used is horrible because Ascalon isn’t a Human Kingdom. Ascalon was originally a Charr kingdom and the Charr took it back from the human interlopers who squatted in it for a few generations. Now, whether you agree with either their logic, leadership or tactics is immaterial, Ascalon is, once again, back in the paws of it’s rightful owners. Wade has no claim to it. He’s the last upstart lord in the long line of upstart lords who brought war and destruction to the land, and has wisely decided that fighting over it isn’t in anyone’s best interest.

A few generations? Funny. Ascalon was human for a thousand years, and it wasn’t Charr land to begin with. But no matter how often this is being said some people will conveniently ignore it.

And who exactly brought war and destruction to the land? Humanity coming to Ascalon was 1250 years ago, and for a thousand years afterwards the Charr waged war to get it back, committing genocide, murdering innocents, burning people alive. If other, civilized people would do to the Charr like they have done to them (and still do today) then the Charr would no longer exist, and no one would shed a tear for them.

Ascalon was human land and the Charr hold it today not because of a moral claim to it, but because it is their nature to kill and destroy and look for excuses for that for a thousand years. The Charr of today may be slightly more civilized than 250 years ago, but every nation of Tyria has to be extremely wary of them because of their nature.

Orr, Kryta and Ascalon were once part of one single empire, and the legal heir to that is Kryta. If you want to dispute this then the Charr had no claim to Ascalon either, after a thousand years of humanity living there. In my opinion they do not have one anyway.

Orr is not worth arguing over, but the Charr clearly play no part in its future.

Gandarel.5091:

It wasd their land? Theirs. That’s that simple. Nothing to do with laws.

I don’t think other races will react as “omg omg new soil that used to be a holy human lend for more tha a thousand years and is totally out of our reach while humans are just claiming the land back LET’S SETTLE THERE”

Yes guys we can argue about basically everything, mostly about what is rightful and what is not. But if everyone start to use their brains without just arguing for the sake of arguing everyone knows who has the right to claim Orr.

Humans decided not to attempt to take back Ascalon. I don’t think they would let charrs or others take this land too.

Yes it has to do with laws, if you know anything about medieval politics. You couldn’t just go around and claim lands to be yours, just because some people lived their once, that belong to your culture. If you go by that, you will not have success, then you might as well just try to conquer it by force.
If you however have proof that those people who used to live there are your ancestors and your are their heir, you have a much higher chance to get the land. Will the current owner just hand it over to you? Depends on how powerful he is, but with a rightful claim you have a much higher chance of getting back-up from people who uphold the law.
In other words, claiming something without reason, makes you look like an aggressor, claiming something with a valid reason brings you way more sympathy.

Drakkon.4782:

Not exactly true, either. The example used is horrible because Ascalon isn’t a Human Kingdom. Ascalon was originally a Charr kingdom and the Charr took it back from the human interlopers who squatted in it for a few generations. Now, whether you agree with either their logic, leadership or tactics is immaterial, Ascalon is, once again, back in the paws of it’s rightful owners. Wade has no claim to it. He’s the last upstart lord in the long line of upstart lords who brought war and destruction to the land, and has wisely decided that fighting over it isn’t in anyone’s best interest.

You don’t seem to get what I am talking about. The humans have a law that states that the heir of a monarch, will be the next king/queen. Even if the land is occupied by foes, the law still makes this person, the rightful ruler of the kingdom.
If the Charr had a similar law it would hold merit for Ascalon, but they don’t. When the Khan-Ur died all of his 4 sons claimed the right to rule the Charr, because the Khan did not make clear who his first heir is and it what order the throne passes down.
It doesn’t matter that the Charr once ruled over Ascalon since they have no law that says “This person is the rightful king of this land”.
They however have the military power to just conquer it back and so they did. And the humans don’t have the power to force their law on the Charr. So they don’t do that, but that doesn’t mean it does not exist.

The double standard being that because orr belonged to some humans a long time ago, that all humans have a right to it. But knowing that those humans died and humans aren’t even native to tyria so that land definitely belonged to someone else before humans.

So all this talk of rightful claims by human law really is nonsense. What about grawl law!! Won’t someone speak out for the grawl?

BuddhaKeks.4857:

You don’t seem to get what I am talking about. The humans have a law that states that the heir of a monarch, will be the next king/queen. Even if the land is occupied by foes, the law still makes this person, the rightful ruler of the kingdom.
If the Charr had a similar law it would hold merit for Ascalon, but they don’t. When the Khan-Ur died all of his 4 sons claimed the right to rule the Charr, because the Khan did not make clear who his first heir is and it what order the throne passes down.
It doesn’t matter that the Charr once ruled over Ascalon since they have no law that says “This person is the rightful king of this land”.
They however have the military power to just conquer it back and so they did. And the humans don’t have the power to force their law on the Charr. So they don’t do that, but that doesn’t mean it does not exist.

We see that the charr do have a law concerning land they lost. They just happen to have more heirs than humanity, at the moment. So the heirs are fighting for power. But we have a thousand year grudge that speaks of charr view about how they view land that used to be theirs. In fact, they may not even need an actual heir to claim that land. they may be of the attitude that as long as it’s in the hands of the charr, they’ll figure it out from there. But all that is also nonsense. because the charr were conquerors before humanity arrived on the continent.

Won’t someone speak out for the Grawl??!!?

Dustfinger.9510:

Won’t someone speak out for the Grawl??!!?

You won me over man! I rest my case, the Grawl are the true kings of Tyria.

Dustfinger.9510:

The double standard being that because orr belonged to some humans a long time ago, that all humans have a right to it. But knowing that those humans died and humans aren’t even native to tyria so that land definitely belonged to someone else before humans.

The Charr’s view is that every land they set foot upon is theirs, and that they can freely wage war against everyone and can even exterminate entire species, like they tried with humanity – and failed. You are right that the Charr were conquerors before humanity came to Tyria, they conquered Ascalon from the Grawl. So, let me speak out for the Grawl: when are the Charr giving back the land they took from the Grawl? Ascalon for the Grawl!

Dustfinger.9510:

We see that the charr do have a law concerning land they lost. They just happen to have more heirs than humanity, at the moment. So the heirs are fighting for power. But we have a thousand year grudge that speaks of charr view about how they view land that used to be theirs. In fact, they may not even need an actual heir to claim that land. they may be of the attitude that as long as it’s in the hands of the charr, they’ll figure it out from there. But all that is also nonsense. because the charr were conquerors before humanity arrived on the continent.

Won’t someone speak out for the Grawl??!!?

If we take your approach to Charr “law”, then the Charr of today have no claim to Ascalon because those Charr who had taken Ascalon from the Grawl died 1250 years ago when humanity came.

As BuddhaKeks said, the Charr simply had the military might to take Ascalon, and “might makes right”. Oh, wait, they could not overcome the Great Northern Wall for how long? They needed the power of an evil (human) god to do so.

Frosch.7809:

The Charr’s view is that every land they set foot upon is theirs, and that they can freely wage war against everyone and can even exterminate entire species, like they tried with humanity – and failed. You are right that the Charr were conquerors before humanity came to Tyria, they conquered Ascalon from the Grawl. So, let me speak out for the Grawl: when are the Charr giving back the land they took from the Grawl? Ascalon for the Grawl!

You are making my point for me. Charr view on land rights is just as meaningless as human view. The only thing that matters is the will and military might. otherwise, if we do go by “rightful claims”, grawl might be the ones wit hthe largest claim. But the dfact is that all laws on land rights are compleltly dependant on the might of the nation bearing those laws. To anybody not of that nation that isn’t subdued by that nation, those laws mean nothing.

Dustfinger.9510:

If we take your approach to Charr “law”, then the Charr of today have no claim to Ascalon because those Charr who had taken Ascalon from the Grawl died 1250 years ago when humanity came.

As BuddhaKeks said, the Charr simply had the military might to take Ascalon, and “might makes right”. Oh, wait, they could not overcome the Great Northern Wall for how long? They needed the power of an evil (human) god to do so.

Not sure what your point is. I’m not fanwanking for charr rights, here. i’m pointing out the clear double standard of the logic that hinges it’s argument on “human rights” to land.

Oh, i see i was blinded by my hatred for the Ch…it was a misunderstanding.

Basically i agree with you here, it’s just that i prefer the slightly more civilized approach of settling disputes through the law than military might. So i prefer the human view here. For a civilization to function it needs laws and rules, and since my main character is human i side with them.

Humanity has also shown that they are more capable of peaceful solutions and compromise than the Charr imo, since the current peace talks were initiated by the human side (if one ignores the failed attempt of the Charr decades ago, for which one can blame Cobiah Marriner).

So, if any laws apply in case of Orr it’s human law, by which means Kryta has the strongest (and pretty much only) claim to it. But as i said before, Orr is not worth a struggle for control. It would most likely become an open place just like LA, if ever settled again – same should go for Ascalon City should the ghosts ever find rest.

Frosch.7809:

But as i said before, Orr is not worth a struggle for control. It would most likely become an open place just like LA, if ever settled again – same should go for Ascalon City should the ghosts ever find rest.

Ah, I think we’re agreed here.

Ascalon was dwarven/Forgotten land before the chars.. took it from them and made it their “so ancestral” land.

@Dustfinger, humans and charrs can both claim Ascalon, because they both had control over it. However, the humans were the ones to inhabit it longer and they built domes walls and other structures that still stand. They bult a civilization. Charrs did nothing.

And about grwals/Orr, grawls are just one step above the monkeys, not a race that could do a claim or would know what a claim is or where do they live.

Also nobody inhabited Orr before humanity, maybe only some of the Forgotten – who are allies to the human gods.

There are no double standards.

Dustfinger.9510:

Frosch.7809:

But as i said before, Orr is not worth a struggle for control. It would most likely become an open place just like LA, if ever settled again – same should go for Ascalon City should the ghosts ever find rest.

Ah, I think we’re agreed here.

But I’m not! :P (like you care) Kryta tried to take back or even demolish the new pirate built LA. What would they do if other races would took their most sacred lost kingdom? That’s a bit different case.

And LA was not fonded and inhabited by all races and became a melting pot, but human pirates (90% of the founders) withdrew and rebuilt the city as their own, making it free from any governments and accepting any races (because they were pirates, outlaws).

Only Kryta tried to claim their lost capital. And pirates.

Gandarel.5091:

@Dustfinger, humans and charrs can both claim Ascalon, because they both had control over it. However, the humans were the ones to inhabit it longer and they built domes walls and other structures that still stand. They bult a civilization. Charrs did nothing.

And about grwals/Orr, grawls are just one step above the monkeys, not a race that could do a claim or would know what a claim is or where do they live.

Also nobody inhabited Orr before humanity, maybe only some of the Forgotten – who are allies to the human gods.

There are no double standards.

We have no definite idea who inhabited ascalon longer because we don’t know definitely how long the charr inhabited it. In fact, best estimations puts the time even, with charr having about a two century leeway to take the lead. And we have no idea how the charr used the land. We only know that their structures didn’t last. But considering the stone age technology that they still used in GW1, that isn’t a surprise. But it’s only been 250 years for humanities structures to fall into disarray. lets see what happens in 1500 years.

On grawl: they are supersticious. But they are thinking beings. We as PC’s even take jobs from them multiple times.

We have no details of who inhabited the land that is orr, before humanity got there. Forgotten were in the area but that never means no one else is. grawl are in plenty areas that other races inhabit.

Dustfinger.9510:

Gandarel.5091:

@Dustfinger, humans and charrs can both claim Ascalon, because they both had control over it. However, the humans were the ones to inhabit it longer and they built domes walls and other structures that still stand. They bult a civilization. Charrs did nothing.

And about grwals/Orr, grawls are just one step above the monkeys, not a race that could do a claim or would know what a claim is or where do they live.

Also nobody inhabited Orr before humanity, maybe only some of the Forgotten – who are allies to the human gods.

There are no double standards.

We have no definite idea who inhabited ascalon longer because we don’t know definitely how long the charr inhabited it. In fact, best estimations puts the time even, with charr having about a two century leeway to take the lead. And we have no idea how the charr used the land. We only know that their structures didn’t last. But considering the stone age technology that they still used in GW1, that isn’t a surprise. But it’s only been 250 years for humanities structures to fall into disarray. lets see what happens in 1500 years.

On grawl: they are supersticious. But they are thinking beings. We as PC’s even take jobs from them multiple times.

We have no details of who inhabited the land that is orr, before humanity got there. Forgotten were in the area but that never means no one else is. grawl are in plenty areas that other races inhabit.

Never ever had i thought that this discussion will get to the conclusion that grawls have the right to claim the world

The most optimistic charrc speculation can have a 200 years leeway, but can be even 1,000 years for humanity.

Thing is, charrs love warring, they just had to have a reason and they could never forgot the fact that humanity defeated them. I think this was never about Ascalon. It’s just about it since charrs need to show up reasons. Never seen a charr in GW1 that misses his “homeland” and is happy to return. Just conquering savages enjoying their war.

Yes the charr invasion was the reason he did it, but still a human was the one who sunk Orr period! Also all these arguments for the humans are the reasons for war throughout human history because someone feels that because their ancestors or whatever bullkitten had it once its theirs…WW1 for example…if you are American than why don’t you go find a Native American and give them your house and land since we stole it from them a few hundred years ago! The argument is like the Italians saying they have the right to everything that used to be the Roman Empire because of their ancestors…no one else would give a kitten what they thought

I’d like to see the consortium trying to make a tropical paradise there. Like they did with southsun cove.
The most fitting inhabitants would be ascalonian refugees. Fleeing from the fall of Ebonhawke.
I think Ebonhawke will finally fall from Kralkatorrik’s claws and not from the char siege.
The fate of ascalon is to become 100% char. Whether or not the humans have a fair claim over the land.

Dustfinger.9510:

Not sure what your point is. I’m not fanwanking for charr rights, here. i’m pointing out the clear double standard of the logic that hinges it’s argument on “human rights” to land.

Just for the record, I’m neutral about all this Charr vs human thing. I was just using this as an example on how ownership of an kingdom works by human law.

dunnberry.2964:

Yes the charr invasion was the reason he did it, but still a human was the one who sunk Orr period! Also all these arguments for the humans are the reasons for war throughout human history because someone feels that because their ancestors or whatever bullkitten had it once its theirs…WW1 for example…if you are American than why don’t you go find a Native American and give them your house and land since we stole it from them a few hundred years ago! The argument is like the Italians saying they have the right to everything that used to be the Roman Empire because of their ancestors…no one else would give a kitten what they thought

Sometimes i wonder if you can understand what others write or if you are capable of logical thinking.

Nobody moved in to the land after it sunk, so it’s nothing like the American/Italian situation.

So if you go on a vacation and the rest of your family in the house dies and I move in, then you can get lost it’s mine I don’t care what you think. And YOUR laws don’t affect me I don’t give a kitten!

Ludovicus.7980:

I’d like to see the consortium trying to make a tropical paradise there. Like they did with southsun cove.
The most fitting inhabitants would be ascalonian refugees. Fleeing from the fall of Ebonhawke.
I think Ebonhawke will finally fall from Kralkatorrik’s claws and not from the char siege.
The fate of ascalon is to become 100% char. Whether or not the humans have a just claim over the land.

Ebonhawke will not fall and humans will have the whole Fields of Ruin and some ground even farther north. Maybe some ground south, too.

But i can see some Ascalonians and Krytans flee to Orr. Free from charrs, free from centaurs once the risen are gone.

Sorry you keep using ridiculous examples that never happen in the world compared to real things that have caused millions to die…ya I’m not logical…also sorry the earth doesn’t have magic at all let alone to sink continents…done with this convo bye

Gandarel.5091:

dunnberry.2964:

Yes the charr invasion was the reason he did it, but still a human was the one who sunk Orr period! Also all these arguments for the humans are the reasons for war throughout human history because someone feels that because their ancestors or whatever bullkitten had it once its theirs…WW1 for example…if you are American than why don’t you go find a Native American and give them your house and land since we stole it from them a few hundred years ago! The argument is like the Italians saying they have the right to everything that used to be the Roman Empire because of their ancestors…no one else would give a kitten what they thought

Sometimes i wonder if you can understand what others write or if you are capable of logical thinking.

Nobody moved in to the land after it sunk, so it’s nothing like the American/Italian situation.

So if you go on a vacation and the rest of your family in the house dies and I move in, then you can get lost it’s mine I don’t care what you think. And YOUR laws don’t affect me I don’t give a kitten!

yep thats true but your a living and had the land as in yours and not your ancesters but yours

now its your great great great granddads house that comes back from a submerge area do you still have claim on it? no you dont

and now lets see who have claim on a island that spawns 400 seamilles out in open sea?? i dare you to say someone has claim on it as none has(before someone claims it)

if anyone have a right to claim anything because of that then rome has the right to most of europe the danish/swedish/norwegen monach pretty much have claim on the rest( dont work that way).

there is none that has claim on the land but the humans can ask if they they can reconstruct the temples and most likely will get promision to do that and i also gess that the pact will make a seeding there for training and stuff like that and most likely move the prior down there to if possible or atleast have a seconed base there with the vigel to

Korsbaek.9803:

if anyone have a right to claim anything because of that then rome has the right to most of europe the danish/swedish/norwegen monach pretty much have claim on the rest( dont work that way).

Actually, it does work that way. Theoretically atleast. The western roman empire was desolved by Odoacer, who desposed the last emperor Romulus Augustulus in 476 A.D.. Odoacer conquered Italy, but he did not claim the title emperor for himself, instead he desolved the empire and crowned himself (have to do this, otherwise censorship) king of Italy.

That didn’t stop the east roman empire from trying to restore the west. They had the right to do that, just never the power to really do it. They came kinda close to it under Justinian the Great in around 550 A.D., but they didn’t conquer enough to establish themself in west so their holdings there quickly crumbled.

After that, the next person who tried to restore the roman empire was Charlemagne, who did with the help of Pope Leo III. He was crowned for protecting the catholic church (in other words, he saved the popes butt) in 800 A.D..
The title was over the time passed onto the german ottonian dynasty, then the salian and so on. While mostly based in germany, this was by the law of the empire, the official successor of the western roman empire. Even recognized by the eastern roman empire, through marriage!
The so called Holy Roman empire was desolved in 1806 A.D. by emperor Francis II. He did it to prevent Napoleon from claiming the throne and title, after he conquered most of germany.
The empire was again (!) restored in 1871, however this time as German Empire. Still, legaly it’s the same empire, even by different name. After WW1 the empire was desolved for the final time. However, anyone of the still existing ruling families could restore the empire, if they so desired. Naturally that wouldn’t happen, since too many strong political forces are opposed to that idea, but technically it’s possible.

and there you say it can only be done by power that is what history shows does humans have the power to go agienst the other 4 races if they said that they cant have it?
and that answer is no. will one of the 4 other races say that they cant have it? most likely given its placesment. would anyone be hurt over it being a neutral ground like LA with the rules of not destroying any of the temple or maybe restor them? nope

and thanks you just gave denmark, sweden and normay the right to claim england if they wanted to as they where there before the current monach where placed there and the royal bloodline of atleast denmark is still here that can be trased to the blooding haveing thoes areas;)

Korsbaek.9803:

and there you say it can only be done by power that is what history shows does humans have the power to go agienst the other 4 races if they said that they cant have it?
and that answer is no. will one of the 4 other races say that they cant have it? most likely given its placesment. would anyone be hurt over it being a neutral ground like LA with the rules of not destroying any of the temple or maybe restor them? nope

and thanks you just gave denmark, sweden and normay the right to claim england if they wanted to as they where there before the current monach where placed there and the royal bloodline of atleast denmark is still here that can be trased to the blooding haveing thoes areas;)

He was talking about the 2 halves of the Roman empire, not that China is claiming the western-Roman empire…

In the Tyrian case, the ‘western half’ was lost to the sea and left unpopulated when it came back to the surface level, and the east could rightfully claim it. (Kryta in our case).

And your example about Denmark, Sweden and England just mirrors the Ascalonian situation, actually.

Nobody lived in Orr but humanity, and after they disappered, nobody took their place but undead humans. – and this is something you don’t seem to understand

Korsbaek.9803:

and there you say it can only be done by power that is what history shows does humans have the power to go agienst the other 4 races if they said that they cant have it?

Yes, that is what I have been saying the entire time, in every single post, yet nobody seemed to understand what I am getting at. The humans are the only race in Tyria who have a law that qualifies them to claim Orr. That does not mean they have the power to force this claim on others, however a rightful claim does make it more likely that other races, that are neutral to the whole thing side with the humans.
The Sylvari for example strike me as uninterested in claiming Orr for themselves, but they would support the humans if they produce a heir to the throne of Orr, since they are really into fulfilling ones destiny. The Asura would probably support the humans in this case too, since it would open a whole new market for their gate network, while they don’t have to build all the infrastructure around it.
If the humans however would just go and say: “Humans used to live here, it’s ours, get out other races!”, I don’t think anybody would support them.

Korsbaek.9803:

and thanks you just gave denmark, sweden and normay the right to claim england if they wanted to as they where there before the current monach where placed there and the royal bloodline of atleast denmark is still here that can be trased to the blooding haveing thoes areas;)

Before England goes to one of the scandinavian kingdoms, I think other european roylas have a more solid claim. The greek royals through Prince Philip maybe or the german ancestors of House Windsor, House Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.

the only one i can think haveing a stronger claim then the scandinavian kingdoms is the old royal roman empaier as they predates that so if any other famiely can trase there roots to a Ceasar then they have stronger rights yes.

as said i dont thinkg humans are going to get it as a solo rule but as stated orr will most likely be a counsel with most of the power(and all races have a chance for getting a spot in said counsel) and the monarch being more of a passive role with some power to help the people but still open for all like LA is today.

Guys I beg you use your brains and common sense.

Humanity will get back what’s theirs being the possession of the race. Norns and charrs are far out of the claiming reach.

Sylvaries aren’t conquerrors and I don’ think asuras would claim it either.

It’s a moral question, and everyone knows that humans deserve the land, no need to keep reasoning and denying it.

Other races won’t just start bi***ing about a territory that everyone knows belongs to the humans.

“Oh nonono Mr humanity, what proves that this land was yours? The giant God statues, chatedrals and cities or the fact everyone knows it is? We should leave it to you just because it’s yours? Oh no that’s not how things work! We need more unnecessary territory that is totally different from what we prefer! let’s war #YOLO”

Gandarel we are not saying that the other races are going to claim it but they will most likely say that humans can make a claim on it for themself but make it something like LA(with a counsel with a chance of mixed races) we are not saying that the charr or any other race is going to claim it but we are saying that humans cant eighter or most likely wont be allowed to claim it.

and my morals tell me that the humans can go kitten themself if they try to claim it as theres as we helped just as much and i wont see it be a human kingdom but i dont care if its a mixed raced kingdom/empier where the power rest in a council made of representives of the people there.

Palawa Joko would like a chat with you all about your non-undead rights.

Winds.3087:

Palawa Joko would like a chat with you all about your non-undead rights.

Ooo. Undead used to own it so it Palawa Joko has a legitimate claim.

Guess the grawl will just have to wait till next dragon apocolypse. :P

I don’t think any race will be eager to make territorial claims for a looooooooong time, even when it’s fully cleansed. Everyone would be happy to let the Pact maintain it as a military/research base for a thoroughly long time.

Otherwise, good luck to the real estate agents trying to sell land of a cursed, sunken kingdom, once infested with zombies. Maybe if the land was completely transformed, like literally covered in vegetation, super fertile, etc, then it would have appeal and the mass public could let go of any superstition/lingering fear.

Gandarel.5091:

Guys I beg you use your brains and common sense.

Humanity will get back what’s theirs being the possession of the race. Norns and charrs are far out of the claiming reach.

Sylvaries aren’t conquerrors and I don’ think asuras would claim it either.

It’s a moral question, and everyone knows that humans deserve the land, no need to keep reasoning and denying it.

Other races won’t just start bi***ing about a territory that everyone knows belongs to the humans.

“Oh nonono Mr humanity, what proves that this land was yours? The giant God statues, chatedrals and cities or the fact everyone knows it is? We should leave it to you just because it’s yours? Oh no that’s not how things work! We need more unnecessary territory that is totally different from what we prefer! let’s war #YOLO”

No one will ever question humanity claim to all Orr… if they were able to free Orr from Risen without external help. But they did not. So now Orr is under Pact jurisdiction, and Pact can easily say “Orr is now new interracial state with council a-la LA. Oh, humans want temples/old cities/other old Orr human things back? No problem, take it, but as citizens of New Orr, not as citizens of Kryta”