Guild Wars 2

Drakkon.4782:

I never said you did. That was my point. You two are arguing the flip side of the same side of the issue, and it’s making both of you look weak and disorganized. From a propaganda standpoint, you guys look foolish, rudderless, and lost on your talking points. It’s like the 2012 Republican Presidential Campaign: Lots of noise but no substance.

Honestly, I love a good debate. I’d like to see stronger arguments coming from the pro-Human side, but right now, you guys collectively aren’t making a very good show of consolidating your position. Until you do, you’re going to look like you’re just doing donuts in the parking lot. Lots of smoke and noise, but you’re not getting anywhere.

I also wasn’t arguing against your point in that post. You make a good point with that, and I don’t necessarily disagree with that logic. HOWEVER, you need to look at my post above this one, and you’ll see where that argument falls down. In all honesty, I think you probably have the best chance of carrying this discussion on rationally and civilly. I look forward to your response.

Sorry for posting consecutively, too. Normally, I would have added this post to the last, but the last one was fairly long, so I decided to break up the set.

We aren’t one party, I can’t possibly know what other people will post, as much as they can’t know what I will post. And just because someone is on the same side, doesn’t mean he has the same reason to be so. Judging my posts, by other peoples is nonsensical, since I have 0 influence on them.

But back to the point. You see the humans of Tyria in a way to modern light, with everyone being a defiend nation, but that’s not the case with kingdoms. Nationalism in the sense we saw it starting in the 18th century, did not exist in the middle ages. It does to a degree in Guild Wars (for example Adelbern distrusting Krytans), but more as a form okittennowledging your own heritage, not as a political entity.
For a kingdom to exist, all that matters is a monarch and this monarch does not have to be from the country he is ruling, just look at Richard Lionheart, King of England, yet 100% french (well Norman, but he was born and lived in France and only spoke french. He hadn’t seen England until he was in an advanced age).
Same applies to Kryta and Orr. The king does not have to be orrian, he just has to be related to the royal line of Orr, which would be by default Queen Jennah, since both her and the orrian royal line (and the ascalonian for that matter) descent from a single person. It does matter that this was 1300 years ago, it still counts. So if Jennah so desired, she could rightfully claim Orr, being backed up by humans laws. Same goes for Wade Samuelsson, who is also a descendant of Doric, through the nobel familes of Ascalon. It’s even possible that one of those surviving orrians turns out to be related to King Reza.
Now again, those are human laws, that does not mean the other races accept them, but atleast it gives the humans the upper hand if another race claims Orr, none of which has a claim as solid as this. And since the land is currently supervised by the neutral Pact, they would most likely give it to the humans, if they give it free at all (which they eventually should, they are a military order, no government).

Drakkon.4782:

…

Here it is:
Leave this guy alone. He is argueing with himself, on the basis of ‘anything can AND WILL happen, doesn’t matter how much it is against logics’.

And real world example: if you visit another country, you have to keep to both country’s laws.

There’s Orr. A former human land. According to human laws, that’s human land. According to charrs laws, if they conquer it, it’s theirs. Did they conquer it? Nope. According to overall laws, humans can claim Orr and charrs can’t. And charrs are busy enough to keep their ground in Ascalon, they won’t risk total collapse mostly because they want that treaty. And aside from “YEAH CHARRS DOMINATE THE WORLD GUYS GET ORR WHY NOT”, there’s totally 0 motive to make this step.

Charrs assaulted Orr but couldn’t take over, and Khilbron’s deed was a war act, not surrender. Actually, charrs couldn’t claim any portion of Orr not even for a second, they just rushed in and got destroyed. If Arah could hold out long enough and the Orrian army could’ve returned I’m sure they would’ve crushed the Charr, because their military power mixed with magic was second to none. Eventually, Charrs should be grateful to still exist/have Ascalon.

Btw in ‘ancient times’, people had common sense and didn’t hide behind liberal reasoning. Everyone knows that is a human land, even the charr and asura, they won’t attack human laws for a pointless war.

I’m out here.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

We aren’t one party, I can’t possibly know what other people will post, as much as they can’t know what I will post. And just because someone is on the same side, doesn’t mean he has the same reason to be so. Judging my posts, by other peoples is nonsensical, since I have 0 influence on them.

True, but you are the same side of the argument, so you should be somewhat circumspect about that. Just saying, people don’t differentiate the source of the message, just the message itself. You’re on the same side, you must be making the same arguments. It isn’t logical, but it what happens. If your side of the argument is confused as to its message, then the argument itself will get confused, too.

But back to the point.

Yes. Back to the point.

You see the humans of Tyria in a way to modern light, with everyone being a defiend nation, but that’s not the case with kingdoms. Nationalism in the sense we saw it starting in the 18th century, did not exist in the middle ages. It does to a degree in Guild Wars (for example Adelbern distrusting Krytans), but more as a form okittennowledging your own heritage, not as a political entity.
For a kingdom to exist, all that matters is a monarch and this monarch does not have to be from the country he is ruling, just look at Richard Lionheart, King of England, yet 100% french (well Norman, but he was born and lived in France and only spoke french. He hadn’t seen England until he was in an advanced age).
Same applies to Kryta and Orr. The king does not have to be orrian, he just has to be related to the royal line of Orr, which would be by default Queen Jennah, since both her and the orrian royal line (and the ascalonian for that matter) descent from a single person. It does matter that this was 1300 years ago, it still counts. So if Jennah so desired, she could rightfully claim Orr, being backed up by humans laws. Same goes for Wade Samuelsson, who is also a descendant of Doric, through the nobel familes of Ascalon. It’s even possible that one of those surviving orrians turns out to be related to King Reza.
Now again, those are human laws, that does not mean the other races accept them, but atleast it gives the humans the upper hand if another race claims Orr, none of which has a claim as solid as this. And since the land is currently supervised by the neutral Pact, they would most likely give it to the humans, if they give it free at all (which they eventually should, they are a military order, no government).

And, through Jennah, perhaps they have a legitimate claim in their eyes, but you must also acknowledge that the Charr have just a legitimate a claim, in their own eyes. The real question really isn’t who has the stronger claim, but who can back it up with the stronger force. On Tyria, that will almost always be the Charr. They are a nation of warriors.

That, but the way, is medieval politics akittens finest. I am a historian, actually, and I do know a bit about historical cultures. But the monarch is the nation, and the nations are sovereign. That’s the meaning of the word and its origin. Thus, when royal families started intermarrying, the lineages of succession became muddied and polluted with foreigners who had rightful claim to a throne. It was hard enough for courtiers back then to figure out who had the stronger claim, so it’s no doubt that we here and now, having mostly abandoned that way of running countries, would have a problem following it here.

I should note that the Charr are also the only democratic nation on the planet that we know of so far. Rule of the strongest is still a rule by the acceptance of the people, which is the essence of democracy. Voting is done through actions, not words. In a lot of ways, it is a more honest way of ruling. After all, you’ve already shown you can do the job successfully.

Gandarel.5091:

Here it is:
Leave this guy alone. He is argueing with himself, on the basis of ‘anything can AND WILL happen, doesn’t matter how much it is against logics’.

And real world example: if you visit another country, you have to keep to both country’s laws.

There’s Orr. A former human land. According to human laws, that’s human land. According to charrs laws, if they conquer it, it’s theirs. Did they conquer it? Nope. According to overall laws, humans can claim Orr and charrs can’t. And charrs are busy enough to keep their ground in Ascalon, they won’t risk total collapse mostly because they want that treaty. And aside from “YEAH CHARRS DOMINATE THE WORLD GUYS GET ORR WHY NOT”, there’s totally 0 motive to make this step.

Charrs assaulted Orr but couldn’t take over, and Khilbron’s deed was a war act, not surrender. Actually, charrs couldn’t claim any portion of Orr not even for a second, they just rushed in and got destroyed. If Arah could hold out long enough and the Orrian army could’ve returned I’m sure they would’ve crushed the Charr, because their military power mixed with magic was second to none. Eventually, Charrs should be grateful to still exist/have Ascalon.

Btw in ‘ancient times’, people had common sense and didn’t hide behind liberal reasoning. Everyone knows that is a human land, even the charr and asura, they won’t attack human laws for a pointless war.

I’m out here.

I already responded to this on page 4, so “Same Answer: Pop! Pop!”

Drakkon.4782:

True, but you are the same side of the argument, so you should be somewhat circumspect about that. Just saying, people don’t differentiate the source of the message, just the message itself. You’re on the same side, you must be making the same arguments. It isn’t logical, but it what happens. If your side of the argument is confused as to its message, then the argument itself will get confused, too.

And if I start arguing against other people on “my side” over things like this, you can say that “my side” is quarreling and can’t make a coherent point. I can’t win in this situation, therefore it’s unfair for me. Heck there are others in this thread on your side, but I ignore them, or have already delt with them, so the best thing you could do, is do the same. It’s not my fault if other people argue with you at the same time, about the same thing, with different points. That just happens on a forum and we just have to deal with it.

Drakkon.4782:

And, through Jennah, perhaps they have a legitimate claim in their eyes, but you must also acknowledge that the Charr have just a legitimate a claim, in their own eyes. The real question really isn’t who has the stronger claim, but who can back it up with the stronger force. On Tyria, that will almost always be the Charr. They are a nation of warriors.

That, but the way, is medieval politics akittens finest. I am a historian, actually, and I do know a bit about historical cultures. But the monarch is the nation, and the nations are sovereign. That’s the meaning of the word and its origin. Thus, when royal families started intermarrying, the lineages of succession became muddied and polluted with foreigners who had rightful claim to a throne. It was hard enough for courtiers back then to figure out who had the stronger claim, so it’s no doubt that we here and now, having mostly abandoned that way of running countries, would have a problem following it here.

I should note that the Charr are also the only democratic nation on the planet that we know of so far. Rule of the strongest is still a rule by the acceptance of the people, which is the essence of democracy. Voting is done through actions, not words. In a lot of ways, it is a more honest way of ruling. After all, you’ve already shown you can do the job successfully.

Not saying royal lines, or claims are an easy thing to wrap ones head around, I’m just saying that this is pretty much how it works in Tyria too, atleast for humans. To figure out who and how a person is the closest relative of Reza and his royal line, is probably some human scholar’s, or the Shining Blade’s job (hey they found Salma, that’s something!).

Of course the Charr could back up their claim of “we once send an army there, it’s ours!” by their military strength, but that wouldn’t get them many outside supporters. They would just behave like big bullies, walzing through to gain some land, that isn’t connected to them. And again, just because you have strong military doesn’t mean you can just run arround and do what you want. At some point, everyone else will be fed up with your bs and take you down in a combined effort. Pretty much what the Pact did to Zhaitan, could happen to the Charr, if they did what you suggest.
There is a reason Smodur and Malice were welcoming the piece talks with humanity. Don’t you think they could have taken Ebonhawke if they really wanted and put all their effort in it? Of course they could, but they didn’t, since it was a chance at piece. Even the greatest warriors will get tired eventually, especially if you have the Flame Legion, Ghosts, Brandend, Ogres and what not to deal with.

And just for the record, I’m a great fan of the Charr, how they turned out, how they behave and of their culture. But I don’t think there is any chance they would ever get Orr and I don’t think they even want it. At best they get a fortress there, like Ebonhawke in Ascalon is for the humans, with memorials for the fallen army of the cataclysm. But that’s it.

Drakkon.4782:

The Charr didn’t lose. Kilborne kicked the board over. It isn’t the same thing. To the Charr, he acknowledged defeat, but attempted to deny the Charr their prize. Now that it’s back, it’s theirs.

The Charr didn’t win either. Kilborne couldn’t have surrendered, since that is what you think he did, since he wasn’t the king. If he had deceived the king into thinking his attack would have only killed the Charr knowing it would wipe out Orr his action would be deemed a third party attacking both sides. If he did it unknowingly that it would do what it did, then he was ignorant and STILL it couldn’t be claimed to be a surrender.

The Charr didn’t earn their ‘prize’ of Orr since they never conquered it so they have no claim to something they didn’t ‘earn’.

Now if they did decide to go back to attempt it, since you put that IF the devs decided to send them back they would take it easy. Who is to say the other race, besides Human, wouldn’t intervene? Since you like ‘IF’ what if the Pact decided to keep it? The Pact is stronger than the Charr even if the Charr left it so they could attack Orr, the whole 4 races vs 1 race kinda works against the Charr.

Since this debate isn’t going anywhere I would like to say thanks it was fun but, in my eyes, you haven’t presented and viable reason that the Charr have any claim to Orr, and I’m sure I haven’t done the same for the Humans in your eyes.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

And if I start arguing against other people on “my side” over things like this, you can say that “my side” is quarreling and can’t make a coherent point. I can’t win in this situation, therefore it’s unfair for me. Heck there are others in this thread on your side, but I ignore them, or have already delt with them, so the best thing you could do, is do the same. It’s not my fault if other people argue with you at the same time, about the same thing, with different points. That just happens on a forum and we just have to deal with it.

It sucks, right? To quote one of my favorite movies: “This is madness!” “No, this is politics!”

Not saying royal lines, or claims are an easy thing to wrap ones head around, I’m just saying that this is pretty much how it works in Tyria too, atleast for humans. To figure out who and how a person is the closest relative of Reza and his royal line, is probably some human scholar’s, or the Shining Blade’s job (hey they found Salma, that’s something!).

Very convoluted, those bloodlines.

Of course the Charr could back up their claim of “we once send an army there, it’s ours!” by their military strength, but that wouldn’t get them many outside supporters. They would just behave like big bullies, walzing through to gain some land, that isn’t connected to them. And again, just because you have strong military doesn’t mean you can just run arround and do what you want. At some point, everyone else will be fed up with your bs and take you down in a combined effort. Pretty much what the Pact did to Zhaitan, could happen to the Charr, if they did what you suggest.

True, it wouldn’t win them any friends, unless no one cared, in which case, it wouldn’t cause them any problems, either. It’s important to remember what the prize is while we’re all arguing over who has legitimate claim to it: a land that is only slowly returning to life after being subjected to an artificial death since it rose from it’s watery grave. Raw real estate, which , traditionally, has been worth fighting over. While the Charr might not appreciate the response of the rest of the world, and the rest of the world might have to chew on the idea of banding together to overcome them, the fact of the matter is that it is worth the risk, and is something the Charr might risk.

Imperialism started out because of a need to expand the holdings of one’s country here on Earth. It wasn’t one of our prouder moments, but it happened. The Charr are arrogant enough to think that imperialism is something they could and/or should try.

There is a reason Smodur and Malice were welcoming the piece talks with humanity. Don’t you think they could have taken Ebonhawke if they really wanted and put all their effort in it? Of course they could, but they didn’t, since it was a chance at piece. Even the greatest warriors will get tired eventually, especially if you have the Flame Legion, Ghosts, Brandend, Ogres and what not to deal with.

I know they could. I fully explained this in a few of my other responses. The Charr could have blasted Ebonhawke to rubble. But what would that have accomplished? Nothing but a lot of dead Ascalonians, but human and Charr. Wasted lives.

This isn’t the case in Orr. There’s no one living there who can oppose the Charr, so any “defense” of Orr would have to be by a rival invading army. Call it right of the kings by bloodline, or defending against the expansionist armies of a militaristic race, or sugar coat it however you want, but we’re still talking about imperial expansionism, no matter whose doing it.

And just for the record, I’m a great fan of the Charr, how they turned out, how they behave and of their culture. But I don’t think there is any chance they would ever get Orr and I don’t think they even want it. At best they get a fortress there, like Ebonhawke in Ascalon is for the humans, with memorials for the fallen army of the cataclysm. But that’s it.

I don’t see it happening either, but in the hypothetical world of this thought experiment, as setup by the OP and the conversation we all joined, the only rule was “Which race would get it?” That denotes that, while the MOST INTELLIGENT AND LOGICAL OUTCOME is for all races to come together and build a Lion’s Arch style nation there, that wasn’t what we were discussing.

Humanity claims they have legitimate claim to Orr. The Charr can make the same claim. The Norn, Asura and Sylvani have NO CLAIM WHATSOEVER. So it’s Humans vs Charr in this thread, and I don’t see the Humans willing in a war against the Charr, if it came down to that.

But, as you pointed out, Smodur and Malice both have no inclination towards wiping humanity out, and are much more likely to foster cooperation over imperialism. I blame most of the arguing on the poor framework established for the discussion.

Mist.6217:

The Charr didn’t win either. Kilborne couldn’t have surrendered, since that is what you think he did, since he wasn’t the king. If he had deceived the king into thinking his attack would have only killed the Charr knowing it would wipe out Orr his action would be deemed a third party attacking both sides. If he did it unknowingly that it would do what it did, then he was ignorant and STILL it couldn’t be claimed to be a surrender.

Homogenizing and dividing whenever it’s convenient. Orr as a nation vs Kilborne as a person. None of that matters from the Charr POV. The Orrians destroyed themselves to prevent a loss, and that is an admission of failure. The Charr won the war, in their eyes, and that’s what matters. You don’t have to agree with that assessment, but it’s how the Charr talk about things when you speak to them in Orr. Listen to the conversations.

The Charr didn’t earn their ‘prize’ of Orr since they never conquered it so they have no claim to something they didn’t ‘earn’.

“Earn”? My, how racist of you. “Earn”. They didn’t EARN their prize. Well, so nice of you to be the judge of that. Here’s your little white and black striped jersey.

Who are you to say what they have and have not “earned”? That’s so racist. Those kitten cats, eh? Getting all uppity? Thinking they have the right to lay claim to what is clearly human land? We’ll put them in their place, right?

Now if they did decide to go back to attempt it, since you put that IF the devs decided to send them back they would take it easy. Who is to say the other race, besides Human, wouldn’t intervene? Since you like ‘IF’ what if the Pact decided to keep it? The Pact is stronger than the Charr even if the Charr left it so they could attack Orr, the whole 4 races vs 1 race kinda works against the Charr.

What’s to attack? Orr has no army, no government. You’re still not addressing the fact that Orr, as a nation, doesn’t exist. The Charr would simply be stepping in and setting up a government in new land.

Also, my Charr Engi is the Commander of the Pact, so I doubt he’ll be advising them that they need to get involved… Yes, everyone is the Commander of the Pact once you’ve progressed far enough alone, so why even bring them up, because no one is going to come to a consensus about that. The Pact can’t be used as an involved party. That makes the entire argument overly conplicated and impossible to sort out.

Since this debate isn’t going anywhere I would like to say thanks it was fun but, in my eyes, you haven’t presented and viable reason that the Charr have any claim to Orr, and I’m sure I haven’t done the same for the Humans in your eyes.

And in my eyes you’ve failed to present any logical reasons why the Charr claim wouldn’t be as valid as the human one. I’ve already accepted the human claim as being as valid as the Charr one. The sad part is that the racists are treating the human claim as better without presenting any form of validity for that argument, and worse, they are denying the Charr claim without having anything substantive to say about why. The real discussion is already moving away from whose claim is better and over to who would win, and even in that discussion, the Charr are the clear winners, though in a war, if it came to that, losses all around would be heavy.

It’s still far more likely that a collaborative government, possibly under the Pact, or with representatives sent from the five races, will be best and most likely outcome of the “How is Orr going to be handled?” question.

I imagine thousands of Risen standing in front of an Asura gate to the Black Citadel, waiting for it to open, yelling “JOIN US!”

Drakkon.4782:

“Earn”? My, how racist of you. “Earn”. They didn’t EARN their prize. Well, so nice of you to be the judge of that. Here’s your little white and black striped jersey.

Who are you to say what they have and have not “earned”? That’s so racist. Those kitten cats, eh? Getting all uppity? Thinking they have the right to lay claim to what is clearly human land? We’ll put them in their place, right?

Playing the racism card makes people lose credibility in my opinion. And actually the Charr position reminds me more of US history – i am stronger so your land is mine. Or the history of several european countries, not only the USA.

Drakkon.4782:

Also, my Charr Engi is the Commander of the Pact, so I doubt he’ll be advising them that they need to get involved… Yes, everyone is the Commander of the Pact once you’ve progressed far enough alone, so why even bring them up, because no one is going to come to a consensus about that. The Pact can’t be used as an involved party. That makes the entire argument overly conplicated and impossible to sort out.

If people insist on giving the Charr a claim to Orr then i’ll say, let them try. Then find out who will oppose them, foremost the Pact. Yes, the Pact. It doesn’t make the argument overly complicated for the point if the Charr could take Orr if they only wanted to. No need for a consensus here, the Pact would oppose it. Foremost the Vigil with their General.

Drakkon.4782:

And in my eyes you’ve failed to present any logical reasons why the Charr claim wouldn’t be as valid as the human one. I’ve already accepted the human claim as being as valid as the Charr one. The sad part is that the racists are treating the human claim as better without presenting any form of validity for that argument, and worse, they are denying the Charr claim without having anything substantive to say about why. The real discussion is already moving away from whose claim is better and over to who would win, and even in that discussion, the Charr are the clear winners, though in a war, if it came to that, losses all around would be heavy.

It’s still far more likely that a collaborative government, possibly under the Pact, or with representatives sent from the five races, will be best and most likely outcome of the “How is Orr going to be handled?” question.

Again, the racism card. Please restrain from that, it has no place in a discussion.

A law that could settle the matter peacefully (human law) will always morally outweigh the habits of barbarians to take things by force. And about that taking, there is no sign that the Charr could take Orr now or in the near future. There is also no sign that they are interested in it at all ingame, or that they claim the right because they imagine that they destroyed Orr.

The Charr may have a claim to many things in their own eyes, but no one else shares these claims, which are, if you allow me to say so, rather uncivilized anyway. The Charr needed peace with Kryta as much as Kryta needed it. You are giving the Charr greater capabilities than they possess.

Concerning Ebonhawke, the Charr gave up trying to take it, they were testing weapons against its walls. Ebonhawke “won”, and there are even Charr who admit it. Going on trying was more a matter of pride for the Charr as they could not back off.

Could they take it today? Maybe, but that would mean war with Kryta and probably the Pact. And the Charr ARE busy fighting on many fronts at the moment, too many. They do not have the capabilities for another major military operation at the moment.

I find this whole argument to be futile by the way. I do not side with the Charr because of their old habits, even if they no longer show those in GW2. And that’s the point that makes this discussion futile. The Charr are shown to be changing. Will the game let them eventually return to their old ways? I doubt it.

Orr is under Pact control, they will decide about its future, not the Charr, not Kryta. They may not make a decision at all, because it could be that no one will be interested in Orr. Will Orr change ingame, so that a decision is necessary? Probably not, another point to make this discussion futile. It will remain infested with the Risen.

And what do the Risen say about the matter?

“JOIN US!” (Sorry couldn’t help it.) XD

You have zero ways to prove that Orrians would have lost, just opinions. Second Individuals within a nation do not always represent a nation, just a historical PoV Albert Einstein was German but the Allies didn’t treat him as a prisoner of war correct? To claim the actions of one represent the actions of the nation, unless Kilborne was fully approved and completely unaware that his action may wipe out the nation, is ignorant.

As far as a claim goes. You haven’t provided anything as to why the Charr have a valid claim. You mentioned a law that if they conquer it it is their but they failed to conquer it, regardless of their view on the matter the lore shows they failed because of Kilborne’s actions.

Please stop with the name calling it really degrades your argument, the whole racist thing is highly inappropriate.

They didn’t ‘earn’ their prize in my opinion. You said “To the Charr, he acknowledged defeat, but attempted to deny the Charr their prize.” Oh and again Kilborne COULDN"T acknowledge defeat for the Orrians since he was just an adviser and not the King, so again the Charr are interrupting something that isn’t there. They weren’t denied a prize because they never conquered Orr. So how were they denied something they didn’t earn in the first place?

I don’t see either side as being better but the Human claim has more substance than the Charr claim in my eyes, since I haven’t been shown anything as to whether the Charr managed to conquer Orr before being wiped out. If they had I would agree with you but they didn’t.

The war between Humans and Charr, yes the Charr would most likely win. A war between the Pact minus the Charr and the Charr, the Charr would most likely lose due to shear numbers against them. They couldn’t move their equipment easily if the Asurans removed their access to the gates. They wouldn’t be able to move easily through the shiverpeaks if the Norn were a constant harassment.

As for your last paragraph, I would see that as the best option unless the Humans could prove that their claim out weighted what the Pact and other major races decided, which would be difficult for the Humans.

By Charr law currently the Pact has the BEST claim to Orr since they are the ones, and only ones at that, the managed to conquer it.

Wow. Lot’s happened. Good job everybody

Mist.6217:

Dustfinger – Our definition =/= Tyrian definitions so what you quoted is moot. Charr claim rights to Ascalon because it use to be their hunting ground but the Humans won the war to take over Ascalon, which per your own definition and this Charr ‘law’ means they have no claim to it any longer. Now they did take it back but they can’t claim it as ancestral lands since their ‘laws’ say once they lost the fight for it they no longer could claim it.

Now on the flip side Human’s don’t have a ‘law’ that states “If I’m bigger and want it all I need to do is beat you for it.” Their law states that if you can prove you are a decedent you have rightful claim to the property.

The Charr ‘law’ holds no sway over Orr since they never won the war to claim it as their territory, Kilborne blew them and everyone else up completely defeating their army.

So by those standards the Human ‘law’ would take precedence since the Charr ‘law’ has no jurisdiction, if you will.

What I quoted is the definition of “Law”. I’d say that it is very relevant in this discussion of human and charr laws. So feel free to quote the tyrian definition of “law” but I’m willing to bet that whatever it is, it falls under the actual definition.

We see in Ascalon that any land the charr lost through battle is still considered worthy of reclamation. Your assumptions about the specifics of charr law are what is really “moot”. We also don’t know the specifics of the human law beyond some vague idea. What are the limits? Why did the ruler of one kingdom not also rule the other kingdoms? Possibly, the citizenship of another kingdom made your own claim to the throne ineligible. We really have no idea.

So my entire point isn’t to randomly invent specifics to the laws of each people that we really have no idea about. As you are doing in an attempt to minimize supposed charr law. But it is to measure each people with the same ruler. One races self-made law to claim the land is as good as anothers. Fanfic specifics that contradict what we see in actual lore are moot. e.g.: The fanfic idea that the charr acknowledge they have no right to ascalon because they lost the land in battle. Or the idea that there is any concept of jurisdiction in a fallen kingdom. So far, there is no higher law than each individual nations. So there is nothing to invalidate any nations law. Even the charr, no matter how low you think of their laws.

Dustfinger.9510:

Wow. Lot’s happened. Good job everybody

Mist.6217:

Dustfinger – Our definition =/= Tyrian definitions so what you quoted is moot. Charr claim rights to Ascalon because it use to be their hunting ground but the Humans won the war to take over Ascalon, which per your own definition and this Charr ‘law’ means they have no claim to it any longer. Now they did take it back but they can’t claim it as ancestral lands since their ‘laws’ say once they lost the fight for it they no longer could claim it.

Now on the flip side Human’s don’t have a ‘law’ that states “If I’m bigger and want it all I need to do is beat you for it.” Their law states that if you can prove you are a decedent you have rightful claim to the property.

The Charr ‘law’ holds no sway over Orr since they never won the war to claim it as their territory, Kilborne blew them and everyone else up completely defeating their army.

So by those standards the Human ‘law’ would take precedence since the Charr ‘law’ has no jurisdiction, if you will.

What I quoted is the definition of “Law”. I’d say that it is very relevant in this discussion of human and charr laws. So feel free to quote the tyrian definition of “law” but I’m willing to bet that whatever it is, it falls under the actual definition.

We see in Ascalon that any land the charr lost through battle is still considered worthy of reclamation. Your assumptions about the specifics of charr law are what is really “moot”. We also don’t know the specifics of the human law beyond some vague idea. What are the limits? Why did the ruler of one kingdom not also rule the other kingdoms? Possibly, the citizenship of another kingdom made your own claim to the throne ineligible. We really have no idea.

So my entire point isn’t to randomly invent specifics to the laws of each people that we really have no idea about. As you are doing in an attempt to minimize supposed charr law. But it is to measure each people with the same ruler. One races self-made law to claim the land is as good as anothers. Fanfic specifics that contradict what we see in actual lore are moot. e.g.: The fanfic idea that the charr acknowledge they have no right to ascalon because they lost the land in battle. Or the idea that there is any concept of jurisdiction in a fallen kingdom. So far, there is no higher law than each individual nations. So there is nothing to invalidate any nations law. Even the charr, no matter how low you think of their laws.

Agreed a lot has happened in the thread and had I thought of it I would have gone back to correct that statement. But it is what it is now.

The Charr did lose their claim to Ascalon when they lost it in battle to the Humans. Does that mean they didn’t want it back? No, of course not and with help they took it back and now have every right to claim it. The difference with Orr however was that it was never their land to begin with, or at least that has been stated in lore so far. They also have no claim to it under their law of ‘if I conquer it it is mine’ because they never conquered it due to Kilborne’s actions.

As for your last sentence. I don’t think lowly of Charr law. I don’t agree with the “I’m bigger and can beat you up so it’s mine” aspect but that is all opinion and is valued as such.

As I said in my last post either the Humans, who have a better claim than the Charr, nor the Charr should get the land unless they are the ones that can cleanse it and make it inhabitable again.

Mist.6217:

unless they are the ones that can cleanse it and make it inhabitable again.

I think we can both agree with this part. Even if we get here using different avenues.

edit:

Agreed a lot has happened in the thread and had I thought of it I would have gone back to correct that statement. But it is what it is now.

side note: Also, I really respect the fact that you don’t feel the need to try to hide your words or try to change their meaning in an attempt to hide the fact that your human and fallible. That is exactly how we get stronger and sharper as individuals.

in the time that orr is cleansed(depending on the time it takes) the race with the most space problems and the means to populate it will get the right to establish a colony there tho with eighter the lion guard or the pact itself makeing sure all races can use the land and visite the tombes and such if they want to.

I have to ask you Drakkon. If the United States went to all out war with, erm, well, South Africa, IDK. And South Africa Nuked itself into oblivion does the US hold claim to it? Really?

Then 200 years later, the United States and Africa creates a treaty to fight alien invaders and South Africa rises from the ocean will the US really destroy the treaty in order to get a little more land? I just want you to remember that the Charr Legions currently own everything east of the Shiverpeaks, including land east of the Blazeridge Mountains (speaking from what we see in lore, not in game obviously).

Plus, I understand that you think that the charr hold claim because they conquered something that they never worked for, but I don’t understand why you think humanity holds no claim. Now notice here that I am saying humanity not Kryta. Humanity’s homeland on Tyria (continent) IS Orr. They didn’t fight other races to conquer it or anything, it is where they grew up on this continent, this is more than the charr can say since they did steal Ascalon from another race (unnamed). So tell me how humanity, racewise, holds no claim to the land where they were born, while charr were rightful in taking back their homeland?

The only way that I can think of charr holding rightful claim to both Orr and Ascalon is for the rule of law to be who holds the bigger guns. In this case we should just shred the treaty and start kicking and screaming about Ascalon all over again, because on that law, humanity held the right or Ascalon when they kicked the charr tails into retreat..

Drakkon.4782:

True, it wouldn’t win them any friends, unless no one cared, in which case, it wouldn’t cause them any problems, either. While the Charr might not appreciate the response of the rest of the world, and the rest of the world might have to chew on the idea of banding together to overcome them, the fact of the matter is that it is worth the risk, and is something the Charr might risk.

Some Charr maybe, but the majority of the Imperators and Tribunes aren’t looking into expanding anywhere. Before you can run around and conquer stuff you have to secure your territory. Something the Charr are still working on right now. The piece with Kryta was necessary, so they can focus on other threats. Now if they would be gone, it’s pretty much possible that they would go to war with others over new territory, but those threats we are speaking of are many and some of them are Elder Dragons.
While not unkillable, it certainly takes a lot of effort to take just one down (and that assuems the others haven’t learned from Zhaitan’s demise). And even after the dragon is gone you still have to clean up it’s minions. No, I don’t think we’ll see Charr conquest in the rough time frame of GW2.
Even if all those threats were gone in time while or is still unpopulated, I highly doubt humans would just let it happen. And don’t underestimate those guys. They might lack in war machines, but those guys produce magicians that make an asura go pale (e.g. Lord Odran or King Thorn). With the dragon threat gone, the overall magic level of Tyria would probably rise. We can’t be sure if that has an effect on how powerful a spellcaster can be, but if it does… oh Charr you are in for a ride. Of course Charr have some spellcaster of their own, but their best are in the Flame Legion, which by that point would be gone (since all threats are delt with) and I highly doubt the Charr would take their magic secrets as their own. They are opportunistic yes, but at the same time, they hate everything Flame Legion with a passion.
And then of course there are 3 more major races. Norn would probably fight for both sides, as mercenaries, Sylvari, I see them on the human side. They are really into fulfilling ones destiny and being the heir to a reawakened kingdom screams destiny, while conquering something because you can, seems more like general kittenery. So the Asura could be the deciding point and honestly, I think they would be neutral. They only care about their own gain, so no matter who wins this fight, they can just wipe out the weakend winner if they want (atleast this would be the Inquest approach I guess).

This isn’t the case in Orr. There’s no one living there who can oppose the Charr, so any “defense” of Orr would have to be by a rival invading army. Call it right of the kings by bloodline, or defending against the expansionist armies of a militaristic race, or sugar coat it however you want, but we’re still talking about imperial expansionism, no matter whose doing it.

Not quite true, the Pact is there. I don’t think they would just leave Orr until they found someone who takes it. If the Charr would march into that, I’m pretty sure they would see this as an act of war and treachery to Pact and it’s allies.
In that case we would have the Zhaitan situation with the Charr getting some slaps on their greedy paws.
If the land is already human by that point, it goes back to my earlier point, all-out war between humanity + possibly Sylvari versus Charr.

Humanity claims they have legitimate claim to Orr. The Charr can make the same claim. The Norn, Asura and Sylvani have NO CLAIM WHATSOEVER. So it’s Humans vs Charr in this thread, and I don’t see the Humans willing in a war against the Charr, if it came down to that.

But, as you pointed out, Smodur and Malice both have no inclination towards wiping humanity out, and are much more likely to foster cooperation over imperialism. I blame most of the arguing on the poor framework established for the discussion.

I’m not even denying some forces in the Charr Legions would welcome such a war, same can be said about some of the humans (/cough Caudecus). But as we come to agree (I guess), at the current point, no sides leaders would want such a war.

If I may draw a historical reference again, right before WWI, all nations wanted this war, until about a few days before it started, when everyone crapped their pants, as they saw what they just unleashed. Not just one of those tiny little wars for dominance, but a full-blown until the bitter end war. And then they wanted to stop it. Sadly it was too late.
The current leaders of both the humans and the Charr are to smart for that, but get some people like Tsar Nicholas II or Kaiser Wilhem II in their places and kitten goes down.

PS.: Had to cut down the quotes a bit for the character limit

Narcemus.1348:

I have to ask you Drakkon.

Your question is just patently ridiculous. Not even close to what we’re discussing.

And yes, the US would declare victory, just like GW did for Afghanistan. Prematurely, and without a lot of credibility, but it would happen. I’m not proud of my government, but admitting politicians are idiots isn’t exactly treason, yet. It might become “Revealing State Secrets” soon, though.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

And then of course there are 3 more major races. Norn would probably fight for both sides, as mercenaries, Sylvari, I see them on the human side. They are really into fulfilling ones destiny and being the heir to a reawakened kingdom screams destiny, while conquering something because you can, seems more like general kittenery. So the Asura could be the deciding point and honestly, I think they would be neutral. They only care about their own gain, so no matter who wins this fight, they can just wipe out the weakend winner if they want (atleast this would be the Inquest approach I guess).

As I don’t necessarily disagree with the rest, I’m not addressing it directly. I just have a problem here. I don’t see the Sylvari siding exclusively with the Humans. The Charr are honest about their ruthlessness. They’re violent, certainly, but they’re not evil. I think the Sylvari would probably work with both sides to broker a lasting peace if open violence starts up. Like the Norn, the Sylvari would not side, directly. The Asura… are different. They wouldn’t side with anyone, but would probably sell weapons and golems to whoever wanted them.

Not quite true, the Pact is there. I don’t think they would just leave Orr until they found someone who takes it. If the Charr would march into that, I’m pretty sure they would see this as an act of war and treachery to Pact and it’s allies.
In that case we would have the Zhaitan situation with the Charr getting some slaps on their greedy paws.
If the land is already human by that point, it goes back to my earlier point, all-out war between humanity + possibly Sylvari versus Charr.

We can’t deal with the Pact. it’s a player-involved faction, and if this were to play out, the players would direct them to support their own side, or the Pact would stay out of it. It’s just… awkward to bring them into the discussion.

I’m not even denying some forces in the Charr Legions would welcome such a war, same can be said about some of the humans (/cough Caudecus). But as we come to agree (I guess), at the current point, no sides leaders would want such a war.

Yeah, I don’t think that a war is in anyone’s interests. I think that the best option is a multiracial option, but I don’t doubt the Charr would prevail. They’re just… driven.

If I may draw a historical reference again, right before WWI, all nations wanted this war, until about a few days before it started, when everyone crapped their pants, as they saw what they just unleashed. Not just one of those tiny little wars for dominance, but a full-blown until the bitter end war. And then they wanted to stop it. Sadly it was too late.
The current leaders of both the humans and the Charr are to smart for that, but get some people like Tsar Nicholas II or Kaiser Wilhem II in their places and kitten goes down.

Most definitely. More over, they have an advantage in that communication is nearly instant because of the Waygates. People keep bringing up the logistics of moving an army, but with the Waygates, this isn’t a problem. I keep wondering what game people are playing. Good points.

PS.: Had to cut down the quotes a bit for the character limit

I know, right?

Drakkon.4782:

As I don’t necessarily disagree with the rest, I’m not addressing it directly. I just have a problem here. I don’t see the Sylvari siding exclusively with the Humans. The Charr are honest about their ruthlessness. They’re violent, certainly, but they’re not evil. I think the Sylvari would probably work with both sides to broker a lasting peace if open violence starts up. Like the Norn, the Sylvari would not side, directly. The Asura… are different. They wouldn’t side with anyone, but would probably sell weapons and golems to whoever wanted them.

Yeah, I actually wanted to say that about the Asura too, but well character limit… Good point about the Sylvari, I forgot how much of a peace loving slime trail they leave behind… I mean how they are brokers of peace. I still see them as more on the human side, but some might also side with the Charr. It really depends on what the Pale Tree says (if the Charr haven’t burned it down by that point. That’s an act I can support)

We can’t deal with the Pact. it’s a player-involved faction, and if this were to play out, the players would direct them to support their own side, or the Pact would stay out of it. It’s just… awkward to bring them into the discussion.

But they are an important political and military power. What the player character is, does not matter for the discussion, since it differs from player to player anyway. In other words, for the purpose of the imaginary construct, we should just leave the player character out, even if the is the second in command of the pact.

Yeah, I don’t think that a war is in anyone’s interests. I think that the best option is a multiracial option, but I don’t doubt the Charr would prevail. They’re just… driven.

I don’t think they are as bloodthirsty and power hungry as they seem. It really depends on who is in charge and how much the legions are willing to cooperate, once all threats are delt with. Keep in mind, they aren’t really united, they just work together right now for a common goal, which would be to secure Ascalon and destroy the Flame Legion. As soon as this is done they could even go back to internal power struggles. And then there are also new threats that could arise, like Palawa Joko leading his undead through the Crystal Desert, or a massive fleet of Canthans arrives with the goal to conquer the barbaric north (not very likely, but how cool would that be :P).

Drakkon.4782:

Narcemus.1348:

I have to ask you Drakkon.

Your question is just patently ridiculous. Not even close to what we’re discussing.

And yes, the US would declare victory, just like GW did for Afghanistan. Prematurely, and without a lot of credibility, but it would happen. I’m not proud of my government, but admitting politicians are idiots isn’t exactly treason, yet. It might become “Revealing State Secrets” soon, though.

Bah I give up. I can’t keep up with this freakin thread. It’d take me days to get caught up to whatever the heck you guys are talking about now…

@ Drakkon

You are getting personal and i won’t let you call me a racist. Especially since you know nothing about me personally.

I am wondering if you ever played GW1? The Charr have always been racist, and their way of thinking and acting can only be described as barbaric. It is currently changing ingame, for the better. You seem to want to defend a way of living and thinking that centers around war, fighting, conquest and destruction and see it as equal to laws that offer peaceful solutions to conflicts?

You are using differences between humans and the Charr to justify Charr “law” being equal to that of humanity, but that won’t work. It doesn’t matter that the Charr got claws and sharp teeth – burning people alive, waging war for the sake of conquest, eating humans and all the other things the Charr did make them barbaric. The Charr of GW2 show no regret for anything they did, so i still count them as not being among civilized nations.

Narcemus.1348:

Bah I give up. I can’t keep up with this freakin thread. It’d take me days to get caught up to whatever the heck you guys are talking about now…

Long story short: We’re agreeing that there isn’t enough information to know if the Charr actually won against Orr, so we’re calling it until the devs give us more clues. Without that, there’s little else to discuss. Sorry, we kind of handled the entire conversation. Some people will undoubtedly want to voice their coppers, but we’re basically done here.

Drakkon.4782:

Narcemus.1348:

Bah I give up. I can’t keep up with this freakin thread. It’d take me days to get caught up to whatever the heck you guys are talking about now…

Long story short: We’re agreeing that there isn’t enough information to know if the Charr actually won against Orr, so we’re calling it until the devs give us more clues. Without that, there’s little else to discuss. Sorry, we kind of handled the entire conversation. Some people will undoubtedly want to voice their coppers, but we’re basically done here.

Also lot’s of showing off that posters are historians.

Has anyone asked themselves what any race other than humans would even want with Orr? It’s a pile of ruins with nothing left but cultural significance to one race and one race only.

Coldtart.4785:

Has anyone asked themselves what any race other than humans would even want with Orr? It’s a pile of ruins with nothing left but cultural significance to one race and one race only.

First page. Artifacts from Zhaitan and old Orr, polygon for magic research (human Gods, Zhaitan), high-level resources, colonization after cleansing, territory for navy bases with VERY high potential.

Coldtart.4785:

Has anyone asked themselves what any race other than humans would even want with Orr? It’s a pile of ruins with nothing left but cultural significance to one race and one race only.

To start a Tyrian world war so every race can be wiped by the dragons.

A-net on Krytas claim to the throne:

GuildMag (Thalador): That makes sense. Although Queen Jennah has a rightful claim to the throne through the bloodline okitteng Doric. So what about that?

ArenaNet (Ree) : I think that when the prince who left Orr to establish Kryta, when he went to do that, by doing that he – I want to say he completely left the claim to the Orrian throne, and he certainly has a bloodline to it. But I think that the distance between the two thrones is going to be too disparate for her to just step up and say ‘I own that.’

ArenaNet (Ree Soesbee) : Well that’s certainly true. She could say it but couldn’t necessarily back it.

So, it all comes down to military power.

A-Net on who makes the descisions about it:

GuildMag (Thalador): As the City of the Gods, Arah has a deep historical significance to humanity. What has been the reaction to Kryta to the events of the personal story? Because – I won’t speak much of the spoilers – but Orr is in a state that could lead to some recolonization.

ArenaNet (Ree Soesbee) : …….The Ministry’s going to want to seize it, the Queen’s going to want to use it. But I really think that the Pact and the various Orders are the people who have sort of the gateway of control about how those things are going to filter back.

ArenaNet (Scott McGough) : And just to expand the situation, the Pact is the organization that has their boots on the ground in Orr. So they’re going to have first crack at anything they find, and right now Kryta is not formerly part of the Pact but the three Orders are, so when the Pact finds stuff it’ll be funneled through the Orders first before it goes anywhere else.

ArenaNet (Jeff Grubb) : …….. And the question is: what’s the reaction of those nations – not just Kryta but the charr of Ascalon or etc. to the fact that there are these larger groups that are basically pan-species operations that are moving forward.

ArenaNet (Scott McGough) : And we don’t have any strong plans of this at the moment but it’s sort of analogous to a country objecting to the UN coming in and saying ‘we’re the ones who did this so we’re the ones who’ll decide what happens to it.’

Long story short: No racial nation gets it. The Pact descides how it’s used because the Pact is the one reclaiming it. http://www.guildmag.com/magazine/issue9/interview.htm

Dustfinger.9510:

A-net on Krytas claim to the throne:

GuildMag (Thalador): That makes sense. Although Queen Jennah has a rightful claim to the throne through the bloodline okitteng Doric. So what about that?

ArenaNet (Ree) : I think that when the prince who left Orr to establish Kryta, when he went to do that, by doing that he – I want to say he completely left the claim to the Orrian throne, and he certainly has a bloodline to it. But I think that the distance between the two thrones is going to be too disparate for her to just step up and say ‘I own that.’

ArenaNet (Ree Soesbee) : Well that’s certainly true. She could say it but couldn’t necessarily back it.

So, it all comes down to military power.

A-Net on who makes the descisions about it:

GuildMag (Thalador): As the City of the Gods, Arah has a deep historical significance to humanity. What has been the reaction to Kryta to the events of the personal story? Because – I won’t speak much of the spoilers – but Orr is in a state that could lead to some recolonization.

ArenaNet (Ree Soesbee) : …….The Ministry’s going to want to seize it, the Queen’s going to want to use it. But I really think that the Pact and the various Orders are the people who have sort of the gateway of control about how those things are going to filter back.

ArenaNet (Scott McGough) : And just to expand the situation, the Pact is the organization that has their boots on the ground in Orr. So they’re going to have first crack at anything they find, and right now Kryta is not formerly part of the Pact but the three Orders are, so when the Pact finds stuff it’ll be funneled through the Orders first before it goes anywhere else.

ArenaNet (Jeff Grubb) : …….. And the question is: what’s the reaction of those nations – not just Kryta but the charr of Ascalon or etc. to the fact that there are these larger groups that are basically pan-species operations that are moving forward.

ArenaNet (Scott McGough) : And we don’t have any strong plans of this at the moment but it’s sort of analogous to a country objecting to the UN coming in and saying ‘we’re the ones who did this so we’re the ones who’ll decide what happens to it.’

Long story short: No racial nation gets it. The Pact descides how it’s used because the Pact is the one reclaiming it. http://www.guildmag.com/magazine/issue9/interview.htm

Long story short, the Pact will decide which race will have it. Humans. As in the interview, 2 of the Krytan forces for sure want Orr back. Instead of being a melting pot for all races, it could be the melting pot of humanity, like DR.

Dustfinger, you neatly left out the truly relevant parts about Orr’s future:

GuildMag (Thalador): That makes sense. Although Queen Jennah has a rightful claim to the throne through the bloodline okitteng Doric. So what about that?

ArenaNet (Ree): I think that when the prince who left Orr to establish Kryta, when he went to do that, by doing that he – I want to say he completely left the claim to the Orrian throne, and he certainly has a bloodline to it. But I think that the distance between the two thrones is going to be too disparate for her to just step up and say ‘I own that.’

ArenaNet (Jeff Grubb): And I think Kryta has their hands full.

ArenaNet (Scott McGough): And I think the distance is a key factor in that. I think it’s far more immediate for the government of Kryta to sort things out with the charr – with the Black Citadel. With Ebonhawke, with the Claw of the Khan-Ur, there’s peace treaties, there’s negotiations in motion. I think this is the first and most important and most achievable step to peace they could take, that Orr is secondary on their doorstep.

ArenaNet (Jeff Grubb): And even though you have asura gates as being an instantaneous means to go from Divinity’s Reach to Ebonhawke very easily, they can basically set up something to get to Orr without going to Lion’s Arch. It’s still that, there’s the immediacy of problems right outside your gate versus of on the other side of the continent.

ArenaNet (Scott McGough): And we’ve seen in the novel and the game that the peace process between the charr and the humans is making progress. I think their first priority is to finish that as best they can before getting into Orr.

ArenaNet (Ree Soesbee): And there are also some implications in Guild Wars one when you get into the stuff with Vizier Khilbron and so forth, there are survivors of Orr. There are people who got away when the continent sunk. You’d need to look into those to see if any of those were move closely related to the throne because they might have a better claim. Not necessarily that they can pull it off-

ArenaNet (Jeff Grubb): A secret heir lost off-end.

ArenaNet (Ree Soesbee): Yeah, a secret heir, a lord of Orr, because like I said, the queen’s descendency dates back to the first king of Kryta. But that is not necessarily as close to the throne as someone who’s great-grandfather was king.

ArenaNet (Jeff Grubb): And Salma was a revealed ruler as well. They had lost the entire Krytan house. And then they found her, and therefore that’s a step as well.

Long story short: humanity has claims to Orr on multiple fronts. It’s just that they are focused on the treaties, rooting out the corruption in the Ministry, the White Mantle, and the bandits, eradicating the scattered remnants of the centaurs, and so on, than to endeavor on something as huge and complex as resettling and rebuilding the still regrowing, rejuvenating (it’s still in the early stages, meaning humanity is in NO hurry) Orr. It’s still far off in the future, but it’ll be humanity’s… as it should be.

I didn’t read any confirmation that humanity would definitely get it. But time will tell. What I did read is that if they do want it, there are many factors hindering that from happening. And then they throw more possibilities at what they may do but they specifically stated they have no plans for it. But, time will tell. keep those fingers crossed.

so I didn’t neatly leave those out since it seemed to me they were spitballing possibilities.

Yes, the Pact is currently in control. We knew that before this discussion even started. The discussion, as I understood it, is on Orr’s long-term future.

That decision is likely going to be made by the Pact… and once the land recovers enough that it’s reasonable for a nation to be formed there, they’re probably not going to want to be administering it themselves. They’re an NGO (or, rather, a collection of such), not looking to become a government themselves, so they’re going to look to install a legitimate government after them. So what’s it going to be?

It’s NOT going to be a case of who has the most money or force. None of the orders think like that. There are really two possibilities:

The first is that it will be a matter of who comes to settle, with the government being largely representative of the population. So in that case, while it’s likely that all of the major races will be represented, it comes down to a question of which race has the greatest incentive to settle there – and with their cultural and religious history with the land, in addition to the possible desire of some to get well and truly out of the reach of the centaurs, that’s almost certainly going to be humans.

The second possibility is that after covering their own interests, they’ll honour the human claim once the Order of Whispers and/or Durmand Priory has found a suitable candidate. Why? Because despite going multiracial, the Order of Whispers – the order among them that cares the most about politics – was at roots a human organisation, and is still going to care about human interests. Because the Durmand Priory respects history, and will want to preserve Orr’s historical legacy, and even ignoring that human stewardship is part of that history, humans are most likely to respect those historical sites when they are, of course, their sites. And the Vigil… probably doesn’t care. However, the mandate that they grant will have conditions – recognition of the part that other races had to play (right to settle, right to representation), preservation of historical sites, and so on. And the various other races will likely accept it because it sets a precedent that’s valuable to them - neither Asura nor Norn would want to set a precedent that will potentially make their own ancestral homelands a free-for-all, for the charr a precedent that recognises prior claim gives backing to their claim on Ascalon, and the sylvari just aren’t going to care as long as they have the right to settle, which they’re going to have anyway.

So either way, it comes down to much the same – a government primarily of humans, with other races being present and represented in the government. The only real question is whether it’s going to be more like the Lion’s Arch model, or the Krytan model with nonhuman ministers.

^All I know is, I just hope to see it someday (in the far flung future).

In my opinion, it’ll become the very first interracial grand city. The Sylvari wouldn’t heal the land if they wouldn’t be sure it would be a land of peace and prosperity. And as all of you have been explaining, a single race cannot inhibit this land – too much drama.

That’s why multiple races will have to join hand, and live side by side.

Derigar.7810:

In my opinion, it’ll become the very first interracial grand city. The Sylvari wouldn’t heal the land if they wouldn’t be sure it would be a land of peace and prosperity. And as all of you have been explaining, a single race cannot inhibit this land – too much drama.

That’s why multiple races will have to join hand, and live side by side.

What’s too much drama about being an ancestral human land? If other races won’t start kittening (and why would they), then there are no problems.

To be honest, I’m curious if we’d even be having this discussion if it was Primordus that was dead and Quora Sum potentially up for resettlement. Or Jormag and the Gunnar’s Hold area.

draxynnic.3719:

To be honest, I’m curious if we’d even be having this discussion if it was Primordus that was dead and Quora Sum potentially up for resettlement. Or Jormag and the Gunnar’s Hold area.

we would if the question where asked else no but the same goes for this discussion but the question got asked her

Gandarel.5091:

Derigar.7810:

In my opinion, it’ll become the very first interracial grand city. The Sylvari wouldn’t heal the land if they wouldn’t be sure it would be a land of peace and prosperity. And as all of you have been explaining, a single race cannot inhibit this land – too much drama.

That’s why multiple races will have to join hand, and live side by side.

What’s too much drama about being an ancestral human land? If other races won’t start kittening (and why would they), then there are no problems.

Because the Humans don’t have the army to… yadda yadda yadda. OMG, just read the whole thread before you open you gob and start all this kitten again. Honestly, we’ve literally undergone every permutation of this argument, consequences, and possible obstinate gerrymandering we can about the whole topic. Lore backing both sides of the arguments, fanfic arguments, pro-race racist arguments. We’ve had them all. Some of them were infracted, so they might not be there, but if they aren’t, consider that a warning that your argument is against the rules of the game, and will likely result in you getting infracted, too.

>.>

<.<

Yeah. So… just don’t go there.

draxynnic.3719:

To be honest, I’m curious if we’d even be having this discussion if it was Primordus that was dead and Quora Sum potentially up for resettlement. Or Jormag and the Gunnar’s Hold area.

I think the difference is that Orr is a completely separate kingdom. And the problem is that the races that aren’t human don’t have enough lore to separate them from their lost land. So if we do get new lore that says the current asura are from some other underground kingdom, then it may well be a future issue in another thread. The norn are confirmed to remain the same loosely associated group of individuals.

But if we do get new norn lore about their lost kingdoms from the Age of the Giants, then the priory may well hold onto any artifacts there as well. Or if we find out jotun and norn are descendants of the same giant race, I doubt many will argue that the norn suddenly hold all rights to all the magic and knowledge we currently credit and get from the jotun.

edit: all that to say that in similar circumstances, I think we would be having this conversation about other races ancient lands. I just don’t think the same people pushing for human control of Orr would be pushing for the other races control in their own separate and lost kingdoms.

Gandarel.5091:

dunnberry.2964:

The charr would tell the gods whatever they want, including a sword in the throat, and the Asura simply would not care what the gods had to say

Yeah ofc, talking about the charrs who got crushed by humans after just a word from Balthtazar to “conquer”? The charrs that were manipulated by a human god without who humans would still rule Ascalon? :P

Ofc a sword would be so efficient against gods that can shape continents within seconds.

About the asura, I don’t think the gods would negotiate with them, just wipe them off Tyria in a blink of an eye if needed.

The charr killed the titans. The gods arent all-powerful, just extremly powerful entities with could not withstand a full legion assault

Humans (Ascalonians) killed most of the titans. The only charr who played a hand in the killing of one was Pyre Fierceshot.

And then it was humans again who mopped up the remnants of titans in the Realm of Torment.

Charr killed no gods. Humans killed or defeated multiple deities, on the other hand.

Xythian.4167:

Gandarel.5091:

dunnberry.2964:

The charr would tell the gods whatever they want, including a sword in the throat, and the Asura simply would not care what the gods had to say

Yeah ofc, talking about the charrs who got crushed by humans after just a word from Balthtazar to “conquer”? The charrs that were manipulated by a human god without who humans would still rule Ascalon? :P

Ofc a sword would be so efficient against gods that can shape continents within seconds.

About the asura, I don’t think the gods would negotiate with them, just wipe them off Tyria in a blink of an eye if needed.

The charr killed the titans. The gods arent all-powerful, just extremly powerful entities with could not withstand a full legion assault

Humans killed the titans, watch your facts

Also, Titans are NOT gods. They were imposed by the Flame Legion as deities, but they were failed creations of Abaddon. See, if we consider them gods, so were the Destroyers, the replacement the Flame Legion found for them 6 years later. Until Humans came again and killed those too.

Rhaegar.1203:

Also, Titans are NOT gods. They were imposed by the Flame Legion as deities, but they were failed creations of Abaddon. See, if we consider them gods, so were the Destroyers, the replacement the Flame Legion found for them 6 years later. Until Humans came again and killed those too.

Pretty much, I still doubt that the Destroyers were ever seen as gods by any of the Charr though. They are a race of smart beings that rather depend on their own strength and wits then any outside source. It was probably hard enough for them to accept the titans as “gods” and those were killed by their mortal enemies. I don’t think anyone would have seriously worshipped the Destroyers after what happened to the titans, I guess it was more of a playing along, even though they all knew what was up.

Seen old B. in action, got jelly, tried to find something similar. Found A. instead.

Drakkon.4782:

Because the Humans don’t have the army to… yadda yadda yadda.

Humans have the second strongest army of the races, after the charr, and they have their own problems. In fact, it strikes me as likely that, for all their problems, the human armed forces are probably stronger than any single charr legion – a large part of their problems can really be put at the feet of the traitors on the inside that are sabotaging the defensive effort.

Dustfinger.9510:

draxynnic.3719:

To be honest, I’m curious if we’d even be having this discussion if it was Primordus that was dead and Quora Sum potentially up for resettlement. Or Jormag and the Gunnar’s Hold area.

I think the difference is that Orr is a completely separate kingdom. And the problem is that the races that aren’t human don’t have enough lore to separate them from their lost land. So if we do get new lore that says the current asura are from some other underground kingdom, then it may well be a future issue in another thread. The norn are confirmed to remain the same loosely associated group of individuals.

But if we do get new norn lore about their lost kingdoms from the Age of the Giants, then the priory may well hold onto any artifacts there as well. Or if we find out jotun and norn are descendants of the same giant race, I doubt many will argue that the norn suddenly hold all rights to all the magic and knowledge we currently credit and get from the jotun.

edit: all that to say that in similar circumstances, I think we would be having this conversation about other races ancient lands. I just don’t think the same people pushing for human control of Orr would be pushing for the other races control in their own separate and lost kingdoms.

It was a seperate kingdom, yes, but it’s a place of deep historical and religious significance to humanity.

Yes, Kryta became independent of Orr… but since every norn aspires to be independent of every other norn except possibly close family in norn culture, the same argument could be made that the norn have no special claim on the Far Shiverpeaks. The asura might be more clearly the heirs of Quora Sum, since they never formally declared independence… but the philosophy of the Eternal Alchemy doesn’t seem to have the concept of a holy land, while Orr is obviously of spiritual importance to human beliefs. So it’s a bit six of one, half dozen the other. But if it was either of their homelands that had just been freed, I’d be championing them to have first refusal – and mark my words, as the place where their gods first set foot on Tyria and where they expanded into the rest of the world, if anywhere can be said to be the homeland of humanity on Tyria, it’s Orr, even if the surviving nations are had declared independence from that homeland.

On the topic of it turning out that norn are actually jotun descendants… it’s a false equivalence. Whatever may have happened in the past, there’s no connection to the jotun in the culture and religion of modern norn, while Orr remains of significance to a belief system that is still relevant to modern Tyrian humans. Even with that said, though, under those circumstances I would still say that those norn that are interested in learning about their ancient heritage have more right to jotun relics than anyone else… except the jotun themselves, should the jotun reverse their slide into barbarism and become responsible Tyrian citizens.

draxynnic.3719:

Drakkon.4782:

Because the Humans don’t have the army to… yadda yadda yadda.

Humans have the second strongest army of the races, after the charr, and they have their own problems. In fact, it strikes me as likely that, for all their problems, the human armed forces are probably stronger than any single charr legion – a large part of their problems can really be put at the feet of the traitors on the inside that are sabotaging the defensive effort.

Which is why they don’t that the army to… yadda yadda yadda. We discussed all this to death in the last few pages. Humans just can’t because of internal issues, logistics, and other problems that aren’t a problem for the Charr, and the Charr are militarized, and can mobilize more easily than any other race.

However, the solution which seems best to all, though is outside the discussion parameters, is to have Orr end up multi-racial/multinational, which is what the Devs have hinted is going to actually be the case.

And the Human military, the Seraphs, can barely handle the Centaurs without aid. The Charr Legions are more than a match for them, individually, or together. There may be rivalries between the Legions, but when they decide to do something, they do it. Read the thread and see what we’ve already discussed and discounted before you bring up old arguments that go nowhere.

I like it how [racename]-fans completely disregard anything that could potentially make their point moot.

Winds.3087:

I like it how [racename]-fans completely disregard anything that could potentially make their point moot.

That’s what makes discussions on Lore so much fun. Everyone is so certain that their pet race is superior in all ways ever to every other race. At least I picked a military race that has proven dominance. Hell, as stated in the game and the lore at this point, the only reason they took so long fighting Ebonhawke and went with a peace treaty instead of wiping them out is that there was neither justification for, nor the political will to commit, genocide against them. Even Charr can get bored fighting the same foes.

I don’t see any “fun” in bending words and twisting lore for the sake of said fan’s interests.

Winds.3087:

I don’t see any “fun” in bending words and twisting lore for the sake of said fan’s interests.

That’s because you’re a lore purist. Those are the boring people at parties who kill conversations by being experts on whatever topic people are talking about.

News Flash: Lore changes. You aren’t the final arbiter of fact. So if we want to discuss hypotheticals, we can. However, many of them have already been discussed, so we don’t have to rehash them. Lighten up. There are only two lore-bunnies I care about here on this forum, and that Dustfinger, whom I do not always agree with but I do respect… ish, and Konig, who is really just god of all lore for most purposes.

If you’re not having fun with the discussion, stop reading it. Doctor, doctor, it hurts when I do this. Well, don’t do that. Duh.

Drakkon.4782:

And the Human military, the Seraphs, can barely handle the Centaurs without aid. The Charr Legions are more than a match for them, individually, or together. There may be rivalries between the Legions, but when they decide to do something, they do it. Read the thread and see what we’ve already discussed and discounted before you bring up old arguments that go nowhere.

And the Charr Legions couldn’t take out a simple human fortification in the south of their kingdom :P

What we see in the story is in the beginning the centaurs having the upper hand and eventually the seraph pushing the centaurs back to the very edge. And by your own logic I will have to say that all 3 charr legions couldn’t take care of their own problem (Flame Legion) without help from the Pact. So charr can be just as big of wimps when it comes to this kind of stuff.