Those lines are setting the basis for the assumptions we’ve been working on already – they’re interested in it, but it’s the Pact that has it now and Kryta doesn’t have the resources to take it (without assistance from the Pact). We’re already working on that basis.
Regarding the claim – the fact that the line you’re hanging your argument on, regardless of whether there’s a quiet ’don’t’ in there or not, is followed by “and he certainly has a bloodline to it” shows that the bloodline is still relevant. It’s that the Krytan throne is politically and geographically distant to the Orrian throne.
However, Jennah is still a descendant of Doric, and that makes her infinitely more suitable than anyone who isn’t a descendant of Doric. If the throne of Orr is to be restored at all.
it shows that the bloodline is definitely there. Not that it’s relevant. The idea that it is relevant is only wishfull thinking on your part. Along with that idea that Jennahs ancestry makes her more suitable than anybody else when the devs said her ancestors completley left the claim to it. But it’s wishful thinking that goes against Ree’s description of her ancestors completely leaving the claim. Completely is a pretty clear and absolute word.
edit:
GuildMag (Thalador): That makes sense. Although Queen Jennah has a rightful claim to the throne through the bloodline okitteng Doric. So what about that?
ArenaNet (Ree) : I think that when the prince who left Orr to establish Kryta, when he went to do that, by doing that he – I want to say he completely left the claim to the Orrian throne, and he certainly has a bloodline to it.
The fact that she is describing how he completely left the claim to the orrian throne when asked specifically about Jennah’s claim, seems pretty clear that her ancestry is useless when it comes to the “claim”. Though, she definitely has a bloodline to it, through the one that completely left the claim.
edit 2: Though, I suppose she could create a krytan law to “legitamise” her claim. it just wouldn’t be under Orrian law (but Orr is a dead nation so their laws are moot). And her political enemies would probably fight it and use it to weaken her.
(edited by Dustfinger.9510)
While I think you’re reading too much into one clause that may be being misheard (those particular words, as you may have noticed, are very quickly spoken, and you may be missing a syllable… or I may be imagining one),
If you read through the entire answer to that question rather than clinging to that one line like a drowning man clinging to a piece of driftwood, though, it implies that a claim IS still there. The second clause of the same sentence, Ree says Mazdak and thus Jennah still has the bloodline. The second sentence says “but” before saying that the distance is too far for her to claim she owns it. Later, we get more talk about how they COULD claim it, but have higher priorities and don’t have the spare resources. At the end, we get, from Ree:
“Yeah a secret heir, a lord of Orr, because like I said, the queen’s descendency dates back to the first king of Kryta. But that is not necessarily as close to the throne as someone who’s great-grandfather was king. "
Implying that Jennah’s descendancy is still relevant – the hypothetical royal survivor is closer because he or she is a closer relative to the last king of Orr (Reza), not because Jennah has been disqualified from the running entirely.
It’s why I went checking that line again – because your strict reading of that clause is out of line with the rest of the answer, which basically boils down to “she might have a claim, but there might be someone out there with a stronger claim, and she presently doesn’t have the capacity to enforce a claim”.
Your interpretation also goes against what I know of how laws of dynastic succession work. A member of a dynasty that goes out to found another dynasty in a different kingdom is certainly at a disadvantage when it comes to succession to the original throne, compared to local claimants – in practical effect (the locals will generally support a local even if the foreign monarch theoretically has a stronger claim) – but that claim still exists, and there are examples in history okittengdoms uniting because the local branch of a dynasty had died out and the next best option was already the king of another nation. The United Kingdom after Elizabeth is probably the best-known example to most readers.
I would say, though, that it’s also largely irrelevant. If the Pact decides to give it to her, they’re not going to care about some obscure point in Orrian law that might say that a member of the line who takes another throne cedes all claim to the Orrian throne for themself and their entire line, regardless of whether or not the local line becomes completely extinct (as it seems to have had, barring again the possibility that the Order of Whispers is hiding somebody). If they don’t choose to do that, again, it doesn’t matter. One thing that I think we’re all agreeing on is that at this point it’s the Pact calling the shots – at present, nobody else can do squat with Orr unless they’re willing to fight the Pact for it, and it’s simply not worth that.
One thing that I think we’re all agreeing on is that at this point it’s the Pact calling the shots – at present, nobody else can do squat with Orr unless they’re willing to fight the Pact for it, and it’s simply not worth that.
The only way it would still be relevant would be in the eyes of kryta. And only in the eyes of kryta. And I have taken that positionearlier. if Jenna chooses not to count her ancestors complete forfeiture then she could make that claim. But that’s not an outside affirmation of her right. That’s her validating it herself. Which I’m sure you know is how laws of local dynastics tend to operate. Self validation in all things that suit their goals. reguardless of other dynastic laws that conflict with those goals. And those self validating laws tend to only apply when the nation has the military might to back them.
I’ll stick to the common ground in this statement though. The Pact will be making the decisions, and a-net will determine where they want the story to go, most likely through the decisions they have the pact make.
(edited by Dustfinger.9510)
This is a nice question we’re discussed a lot about here.
Once GW2 offers us more Orr and other “dead looking place” (Crystal Desert, Real of Torment, etc) the Pact should try to estabilish Malchor’s Leap for a closeby PACT fort that used to support cleanishing other remains.
On the Human “right” to claim Orr: Humans are not native to Tyria. They have no claim on any lands. Their noble houses and bloodlines are not native to this world, and therefore have no claim to the lands because they are outsiders and invaders. I don’t care if they claim a bunch of Ancient Astronauts told them they could do it, the races that exist on Tyria have claim to the land before they ever will. The Centaurs have more claim to Orr than Humans.
Discuss.
No one except maybe the forgotten lived on the piece of land that is Orr. Thus unless the forgotten come out and claim it, which is unlikely seeing as they seem to have lost all interest in Tyria in general, no one has claim to the land. Humans and the gods were the first people to lay any claim on it after the time of the forgotten.
On a side note, when you think about it, is it really that viable for a world to have so many sapient races? I have to believe that the humans may not be the only race that are not native to Tyria. No race has had their history delved into as far as humanity has, so there is no way to tell if any of them or native or not. Just because we assume they are doesn’t make it the truth.
No one except maybe the forgotten lived on the piece of land that is Orr. Thus unless the forgotten come out and claim it, which is unlikely seeing as they seem to have lost all interest in Tyria in general, no one has claim to the land. Humans and the gods were the first people to lay any claim on it after the time of the forgotten.
On a side note, when you think about it, is it really that viable for a world to have so many sapient races? I have to believe that the humans may not be the only race that are not native to Tyria. No race has had their history delved into as far as humanity has, so there is no way to tell if any of them or native or not. Just because we assume they are doesn’t make it the truth.
that is true but can you say that humans on earth are native to earth?
and just because forgotten had the land last does not mean they did not take it from someone before them back before ancient past.
we know that humans are not native to tyria so they cant claim any land by the claim of origan tho they can claim land on other claims.
On a side note, when you think about it, is it really that viable for a world to have so many sapient races? I have to believe that the humans may not be the only race that are not native to Tyria. No race has had their history delved into as far as humanity has, so there is no way to tell if any of them or native or not. Just because we assume they are doesn’t make it the truth.
It’s more to the point that Humanity is the one race we have explicitly been told is NOT native to Tyria. They are the one race who cannot lay claim to ANY part of the world because they aren’t from it. Until such time as we discover that the other races have no erstwhile claim to the world, either, being from another world and having been transported through the Mists by some unknown agency, we must assume they are from Tyria and have greater claim to any part of it than the Humans.
The Charr claim to be natives to Tyria, and probably are, having not been dependent and magic or Gods until the Flame Legion took control, and having had no greater capacity or mythology regarding coming to or being from another world. Given the quantity of animalistic sapient races on Tyria, they are almost certainly natives.
The Asura originated deep inside the world, and with their gate technology, it isn’t certain they aren’t from another place, either. Evolution in islolation certainly has produced a race with strange qualities, but I am uncertain why they ever evolved eyes. Most cave dwelling species that never see light (which would have to be artificially generated in non-volcanic areas) de-evolve their eyes and heighten their other senses instead. But the Asura have eyes. Really, really big ones. It is possible, and even probable, that they did not originate here.
The Norn are wanderers by nature. They set up few towns, and even fewer cities. They are conversant with the Mists, and their spirits are among the few “normal” animals on the planet. Of all the races, they are the ones most likely to have immigrated from Earth. They may actually be Earth Humans from an elder age who disappeared into the Mists to follow their spirits and ended up on Tyria. What a grand adventure that would be, and what a story to found a legend. But the lack of such a legend indicates that it isn’t likely…
The Sylvari are almost certainly from Tyria, having recently emerged from a long incubation in the Dreaming. However, they could equally be considered to be from the Mists, so they could be just as unlikely to be natives. There isn’t enough known about them to say one way or the other.
Drakkon, if they weren’t from tyria, why does that mean they have no claim? Orr was an unclaimed land when they arrived (or Forgotten land that they offered for humans, thus giving the rights to them).
Why would any race that’s from tyria but never ever stepped to Orr could claim it more than humans who actually built it and were brought there by gods?
Neither were from Orr, not charrs, not asuras, not humans. But, there was an altar to Glint, probably built by the forgotten, allies to human gods. They gave the land to the humans.
Paperwork done, human land.
Drakkon, if they weren’t from tyria, why does that mean they have no claim? Orr was an unclaimed land when they arrived (or Forgotten land that they offered for humans, thus giving the rights to them).
Why would any race that’s from tyria but never ever stepped to Orr could claim it more than humans who actually built it and were brought there by gods?
Neither were from Orr, not charrs, not asuras, not humans. But, there was an altar to Glint, probably built by the forgotten, allies to human gods. They gave the land to the humans.
Paperwork done, human land.
I’m unconvinced that the Ancient Astronauts (whom you refer to as Gods, but which we have not fully explored their divine natures) have agency to present claim to the Humans. They aren’t from Tyria, either. They are just as transplanted as the Humans. Once again, we’re rejecting the invader claim on behalf of the Charr, we’re going to have to reject it on behalf of the Humans, who, legitimately, invaded Tyria from an entirely other world, not just another continent.
I didn’t say that the other races had direct claim, only more sufficient claim than any Human. Nothing you have presented here actually overrules that observation, either. The Forgotten being allies of Glint lends credibility to the claim, but does not sufficiently solidify it, as you believe. It is inappropriate to draw conclusions regarding definitive claims to Orr, particularly by aliens who are not even from this world. They have come here by means other than their own, and are not sufficient to present a claim of their own to any lands. Perhaps if their so called Gods could produce a statement that legitimizes their claim on the continent, then we might consider their claim…
I have to say that we cannot just assume the state of the other races’ origins as being “native to Tyria” until told otherwise. I mean based off of that logic humans may very well be native to Tyria. The only source that states humans were brought to Tyria by the gods was an old orrian scroll, and human history also stated that the gods created tyria, and created magic. Human history is fallible at best and at it’s worst it is completely wrong. For all we know someone wrote that humanity was brought to Tyria by the gods in order to make humanity seem more important. Remember, history never lies, historians though…
All I will say is whether native to the planet or not, all races are in some way shape or form invaders. Something always owned the lands before they evolved into what they are, and they pushed out that something or moved away into an area where they could push out the natives. When we come to Orr specifically, there is only evidence of 1 of the past races living in that region, and it was the Forgotten (who themselves may have been brought into Tyria through the Mists, based on ancient history) and they spent their lives worshiping the gods and Glint and seem to have handed the land down to the gods, and the gods handed the land off to humanity before they left. IMO, the other races have no extra claim just based on the fact that they “may” have been native to the planet.
I have to say that we cannot just assume the state of the other races’ origins as being “native to Tyria” until told otherwise. I mean based off of that logic humans may very well be native to Tyria. The only source that states humans were brought to Tyria by the gods was an old orrian scroll, and human history also stated that the gods created tyria, and created magic. Human history is fallible at best and at it’s worst it is completely wrong. For all we know someone wrote that humanity was brought to Tyria by the gods in order to make humanity seem more important. Remember, history never lies, historians though…
Well, that and the time that the story guys and devs said that they weren’t native, but other than that we have no proof that humans aren’t from Tyria.
So we’re agreed that we have no evidence as to the native-ness of the races of Tyria and the only one we can state as definitely not from Tyria is the Humans.
All I will say is whether native to the planet or not, all races are in some way shape or form invaders. Something always owned the lands before they evolved into what they are, and they pushed out that something or moved away into an area where they could push out the natives. When we come to Orr specifically, there is only evidence of 1 of the past races living in that region, and it was the Forgotten (who themselves may have been brought into Tyria through the Mists, based on ancient history) and they spent their lives worshiping the gods and Glint and seem to have handed the land down to the gods, and the gods handed the land off to humanity before they left. IMO, the other races have no extra claim just based on the fact that they “may” have been native to the planet.
By your logic, the last owners of Orr were the Undead, and since they’re still there, they have a greater claim to the land than anyone. Fabulous. The original owners were the Forgotten, supposedly, but I can’t remember, and their claim appears to have been abdicated in favor of others, which cannot be confirmed, so that’s in doubt, too.
At this point, there doesn’t appear to be ANYONE who has a legitimate claim to the land, so as the Pact has technical possession of the land, I guess they’re the ones who will decide what to do with it.
Well at your last point, it is a duh. We’ve known for a while that the Pact would be making the decision, it’s just been arguing over what would be the smartest move for the Pact to make. What would give them more manpower and political leverage in order to achieve their goal of destroying the Elder Dragons.
On another point, humanity did not hand off Orr to the Undead. One human used a spell and conquered the area and then a dragon conquered it from him. Saying that humanity doesn’t deserve Orr after the conquering is complete is like saying the charr didn’t deserve to re-take ascalon after it was under human control for over a millennium. And before you state that the charr deserve Ascalon because THEY reclaimed it, remember that the only reason the charr reclaimed it was their reliance on demons. The charr had help just as much as humanity did.
Well at your last point, it is a duh. We’ve known for a while that the Pact would be making the decision, it’s just been arguing over what would be the smartest move for the Pact to make. What would give them more manpower and political leverage in order to achieve their goal of destroying the Elder Dragons.
And honestly, the Pact having it as a “homeland” from which they could stage and mount attacks against the other Elder Dragons would be a good thing. Before everyone starts complaining about logistics of such an act, remember that they have a lot of land they won’t be directly using and administrating land use fees will generate a lot of revenue that can be used to build Asura Gates that can be focused on other locations near the Dragons, so as outposts and staging fortifications are built, they can be used to rapidly send troops to reinforce those locations at a moment’s notice, getting materials and soldiers anywhere they’re needed quickly.
On another point, humanity did not hand off Orr to the Undead. One human used a spell and conquered the area and then a dragon conquered it from him. Saying that humanity doesn’t deserve Orr after the conquering is complete is like saying the charr didn’t deserve to re-take ascalon after it was under human control for over a millennium. And before you state that the charr deserve Ascalon because THEY reclaimed it, remember that the only reason the charr reclaimed it was their reliance on demons. The charr had help just as much as humanity did.
Not exactly true. Orr was decimated by a madman who used a spell he knew little about to unleash powers he couldn’t control to destroy and enemy he couldn’t overcome. It destroyed his own kingdom and sank it into the sea. We’re unclear on the exact time that Zhaitan took over Orr, though we are clear on the fact that he did and raised his undead army from the many drowned victims he found laying about. The exact nature of the transition of possession from one to the other is unclear, but that it happened is not in doubt.
Now, the point about the Humans deserving to re-conquer Orr isn’t at issue. But they have to try first. The argument you present isn’t one where they are an army conquering a foreign land to reclaim a birthright, so much as your argument asks that they simply be handed the keys to the kingdom back without putting forth even a minimum amount of effort to liberate it from the undead. At least the Charr bled and died to retake Ascalon. Where are the dead Seraph? Where are the broken human war machines? Who but the Pact has bled and died for Orr’s salvation? Can you answer me those questions?
Frankly I think the Sylvari have the strongest claim to it. It was a Sylvari who led the pact to reclaim it, it was a Sylvari that cleansed Orr, it was the Pale Tree who gave the most insight in what needed done, and it was the Sylvari who were on the front lines in almost every battle (because of their immunity to the corruption).
Sure, it was a human city once, but the humans destroyed it (and they don’t really have a birth right since they colonized Orr, they didn’t originate there). Sure the Charr were in the middle of conquering it and likely would have had it not been destroyed, but then the same can be said for just about every land they saw.
To me it is obvious that by rights one of two things should happen. A) the Sylvari claim the land and rebuild it or B ) this becomes an area jointly owned by all races and becomes a more legit version of LA (you know, not run by pirates).
Unless you think that humans should be evicted from Tyria entirely, the argument that humans are non-native is irrelevant. To our knowledge, no other currently extant race has lived in Orr, so out of races currently living, humans are the only ones that have such a claim. As opposed to, say, Kryta.
It’s also worth noting that the things that make Orr significant are things related to humans, the gods, Glint, and the Forgotten. Of those, only one is currently active on Tyria, unless the Seventh Reaper decides to have a say.
On the question of dead Seraph – if you pay attention to some of the story steps in Orr, and to some of the idle chatter, you get the impression that there are a lot of Vigil crusaders who have served as the Seraph. The circumstances of which are unclear, but they certainly don’t behave like deserters. The most likely explanation is that while Jennah didn’t formally send soldiers, she left the door open for and in at least one case openly encouraged volunteers to assist the Pact. There are humans in the Pact who are loyal to the queen and, directly or indirectly, are there because Jennah has thrown her support in behind the Pact, even if Kryta is not officially a member.
Specific named examples include:
Logan (Seraph captain, survived), Priestess Rhie (Krytan Priestess of Grenth, survived), Tactician Beirne (Seraph, died in Steel Tide), Crusader Deborah (Seraph, the ‘missing sister’ from that arc, survived), Crusader Eilye Jeyne (Ebon Vanguard, survived).
Furthermore, as I’ve mentioned before, it’s a safe assumption that whatever happens with Orr there will be a spoken or unspoken expectation of supporting the Pact.
On Invictus’ point: The sylvari don’t care about land ownership, and they get along well with humans – I don’t think they’d interfere with a human claim. It’s also worth mentioning that Trahearne’s ritual only worked because it was at a site infused with the power of the gods. Overall, I’m pretty sure the sylvari in general, and Trahearne and the Pale Tree specifically, know darn well of the significance of the site for humans, and they’d be putting in their say that whatever settlement ultimately occurs takes that into account.
EDIT: Also, it wasn’t humans, plural, that destroyed it. One specific human destroyed it, either as an act of desperation or a deliberate act of treachery.
(edited by draxynnic.3719)
This is very simple. Humans will take orr. Manifest destiny!!!
A land is considered claimed once the conquerror side establishes a government system on the new land, distributing it between his nation and points out leaders.
Since charrs just rushed in and got killed, nothing like this ever happened. Their army faced absolute destruction by an Orrian scroll.
According to this, Orr won the war at a high cost and charrs faced total destruction. Human land.
A land is considered claimed once the conquerror side establishes a government system on the new land, distributing it between his nation and points out leaders.
Since charrs just rushed in and got killed, nothing like this ever happened. Their army faced absolute destruction by an Orrian scroll.
According to this, Orr won the war at a high cost and charrs faced total destruction. Human land.
Orr did not won the war. Maximum that we can say is that Orr did repel first invasion, but lost all land, citizens, government and army in process.
So at first we have charr “Empire” and charr army vs Orrian Kingdom and orrian army.
After all magic events we have charr “Empire” and charr army (with less numbers) vs… nothing, Orrian kingdom and army completely gone.
Ergo = charr won the war, they are got nothing to grab after victory (no new land, no trophies) but their enemy completely destroyed.
(edited by Rednik.3809)
A land is considered claimed once the conquerror side establishes a government system on the new land, distributing it between his nation and points out leaders.
Since charrs just rushed in and got killed, nothing like this ever happened. Their army faced absolute destruction by an Orrian scroll.
According to this, Orr won the war at a high cost and charrs faced total destruction. Human land.
Orr did not won the war. Maximum that we can say is that Orr did repel first invasion, but lost all land, citizens, government and army in process.
So at first we have charr “Empire” and charr army vs Orrian Kingdom and orrian army.
After all magic events we have charr “Empire” and charr army (with less numbers) vs… nothing, Orrian kingdom and army completely gone.
Ergo = charr won the war, they are got nothing to grab after victory (no new land, no trophies) but their enemy completely destroyed.
Orr did not forfeit the war and achieved ultimate victory over the charr army – even tho they sacrificed too much.
Wouldn’t call this a bright victory, but still doesn’t give any claim to charrs. And we know there are living Orrians who are hiding their heritage.
No charrs survived the assault and they never attempted to take the land again. Kryta repelled the charrs too and lost their royal house for some years, still doesn’t give any claims to the charr.
Orr did not forfeit the war and achieved ultimate victory over the charr army – even tho they sacrificed too much.
Orr destroyed itself. That’s the biggest admission of defeat you can have. Intentional or not, the actions of one man without approval of his king or not, it doesn’t matter. The Charr survived, the Orrians didn’t, and Orr sank into the sea. Victor, by Survival: THE CHARR! You can’t claim victory if you’re dead. Even Adlebrain knows that and he still kitten ed his whole kingdom to ghostly unlife to spite the Charr. Same result: Victory for the Charr. A troublesome victory with a host of problems to be dealt with constantly, but victory nonetheless.
Wouldn’t call this a bright victory, but still doesn’t give any claim to charrs. And we know there are living Orrians who are hiding their heritage.
No, it doesn’t give claim to the humans. Orr can claim NO victory. They failed, were destroyed, and the refuges are silent about their heritage. No one is left to step up among the humans, as the time to do so is now. Unless someone does, the land has only the Pact to adminstrate it. It is a de facto government, and as the only government in place, that makes Trahearne the ruler of Orr.
No charrs survived the assault and they never attempted to take the land again. Kryta repelled the charrs too and lost their royal house for some years, still doesn’t give any claims to the charr.
Funny, I have three Charr who apparently are among those who’s families survived the assault. If you mean of those present on Orr? Sure, but as there was no continent left to go back to, there’s hardly a flaw in the Charr not sending more troops to claim a patch of ocean. Orr didn’t win. No matter how much you want them to be seen as valiantly opposing the Charr, they didn’t win. There’s no Pyrrhic victory here. No “we won, but at what cost?” They lost. They lost everything. The only thing that the Charr lost was the opportunity to claim their spoils.
And if you want to obstinately keep pressing this ridiculous Charr v Orr position, it’s an opportunity that they just got back, thanks to the Pact. The Norn won’t take it, the Humans don’t have the troops, the Asura aren’t looking for that kind of domination, and the Sylvari don’t think that way (well, the Nightmare Court might, but we can’t play them, so that’s moot). That leave the Charr. Should even one Warband make the trek, via waygates or otherwise, to Orr to plant the flag of the High Legions, as it were, then the Charr claim will be made.
But that’s unlikely to happen. The Pact control Orr, and they will continue to control it into the foreseeable future. Humanity just doesn’t have a good enough claim and no way to actually press it. No moreso than the Charr in any case.
On Invictus’ point: The sylvari don’t care about land ownership, and they get along well with humans – I don’t think they’d interfere with a human claim. It’s also worth mentioning that Trahearne’s ritual only worked because it was at a site infused with the power of the gods. Overall, I’m pretty sure the sylvari in general, and Trahearne and the Pale Tree specifically, know darn well of the significance of the site for humans, and they’d be putting in their say that whatever settlement ultimately occurs takes that into account.
You may be right that the Sylvari wouldn’t care and thus would allow the human’s to reclaim, that doesn’t mean that the Sylvari wouldn’t have a claim. I’d submit that the Sylvari may in fact care in that they have a very vested interest in nature and it’s growth and nurturing. Although they aren’t the kind to go into, say, Ascalon and tell the Charr to clean up their act, they may very well take a personal stake in Orr given that it was a major part of their short lived society to see it cleansed.
I think they Sylvari would likely allow the humans to move back in and may even allow for human Sovereign rule, but I don’t think they would simply allow the humans to take over completely without a heavy Sylvari presence. How the humans would respond to this I’m unsure, but I think it would at least start out on good and cooperative terms.
Although they aren’t the kind to go into, say, Ascalon and tell the Charr to clean up their act, they may very well take a personal stake in Orr given that it was a major part of their short lived society to see it cleansed.
I think they Sylvari would likely allow the humans to move back in and may even allow for human Sovereign rule, but I don’t think they would simply allow the humans to take over completely without a heavy Sylvari presence. How the humans would respond to this I’m unsure, but I think it would at least start out on good and cooperative terms.
Btw if sylvary will come to Ascalon with actual ideas how to do it without stopping industrialization, charr will probably let em do it and assign warbands to help. Charr cares about healthy environment (no one wants to live in wasteland and charr are rational thinkers, see multiple charr hearts about cleansing various areas), they just care more about industrialization at the moment.
Although they aren’t the kind to go into, say, Ascalon and tell the Charr to clean up their act, they may very well take a personal stake in Orr given that it was a major part of their short lived society to see it cleansed.
I think they Sylvari would likely allow the humans to move back in and may even allow for human Sovereign rule, but I don’t think they would simply allow the humans to take over completely without a heavy Sylvari presence. How the humans would respond to this I’m unsure, but I think it would at least start out on good and cooperative terms.
Btw if sylvary will come to Ascalon with actual ideas how to do it without stopping industrialization, charr will probably let em do it and assign warbands to help. Charr cares about healthy environment (no one wants to live in wasteland and charr are rational thinkers, see multiple charr hearts about cleansing various areas), they just care more about industrialization at the moment.
Those hearts about cleaning up the environment, aren’t those more about environmental hazards and disasters like tar leaks and whatnot preventing use of the land?
The Charr are pretty much venture capitalists when it comes to environmentalism. “Does the environment benefit us? Yes: Keep it. No: Change it”.
Also these arguments about “claims” to Orr, shouldn’t we have gone through all these already? Any claim at this point with the risen still there and land so messed up is just a limp wristed gesture at a land grab until someone actually puts in the resources to making it theirs.
Still don’t think the Charr would do much more than have an outpost here or there as it’s soo far from their territories and primary conflicts.
Charr cares about healthy environment (no one wants to live in wasteland
I lol’d so hard. Searing, anyone?
Charr cares about healthy environment (no one wants to live in wasteland
I lol’d so hard. Searing, anyone?
- Here live the humans, who stole this land from us, killed our ancestors and slowly but constantly continue their expansion. We can engage and win war with em, but land will be seriously damaged by our combat magic. Natural recovering process will take alot of time.
- Oh no, we cannot damage the lands, lets wait until humans will push further and exterminate us completely! Environment must be saved at all costs!
Orr did not forfeit the war and achieved ultimate victory over the charr army – even tho they sacrificed too much.
Orr destroyed itself. That’s the biggest admission of defeat you can have. Intentional or not, the actions of one man without approval of his king or not, it doesn’t matter. The Charr survived, the Orrians didn’t, and Orr sank into the sea. Victor, by Survival: THE CHARR! You can’t claim victory if you’re dead. Even Adlebrain knows that and he still kitten ed his whole kingdom to ghostly unlife to spite the Charr. Same result: Victory for the Charr. A troublesome victory with a host of problems to be dealt with constantly, but victory nonetheless.
I have to disagree with this based entirely on the fact that there are still Orrians in Orr as we speak! HA THEY SURVIVED! (and in case you don’t get it, this was a joke)
Seriously speaking though, with the use of the now known forgotten spell the Pact could go about trying to cleanse the minions and for all we know there could be a continent full of Orrians once more. Why you ask? Simple, the same reason the forgotten freed Glint. To learn more about the Elder Dragons. I understand this is a crazy thought, but in the end it IS a possibility.
Orr did not forfeit the war and achieved ultimate victory over the charr army – even tho they sacrificed too much.
Orr destroyed itself. That’s the biggest admission of defeat you can have. Intentional or not, the actions of one man without approval of his king or not, it doesn’t matter. The Charr survived, the Orrians didn’t, and Orr sank into the sea. Victor, by Survival: THE CHARR! You can’t claim victory if you’re dead. Even Adlebrain knows that and he still kitten ed his whole kingdom to ghostly unlife to spite the Charr. Same result: Victory for the Charr. A troublesome victory with a host of problems to be dealt with constantly, but victory nonetheless.
I have to disagree with this based entirely on the fact that there are still Orrians in Orr as we speak! HA THEY SURVIVED! (and in case you don’t get it, this was a joke)
Seriously speaking though, with the use of the now known forgotten spell the Pact could go about trying to cleanse the minions and for all we know there could be a continent full of Orrians once more. Why you ask? Simple, the same reason the forgotten freed Glint. To learn more about the Elder Dragons. I understand this is a crazy thought, but in the end it IS a possibility.
my guess is that none of the normal minions is worth cleansing but if there is any eyes and/or mouths left we might get some Intel from them as zhietan minions where a hive mind in the way that he got all there knowledge but given that i doubt that there is any way that he will share hes knowledge with the minions in any way as there is a way to cleans them from corruption, my guess is that hes smart enough to not share any importent intle that might hurt any elder dragons as that would have been a potential threat to himself unless he released that info just before he died.
No one knows that Zhaitan knows about the cleansing ritual. I mean Kralkatorrik isn’t friends with Zhaitan, and he didn’t seem to know about the betrayal until after he went to sleep (either that or Glint hid herself as well as the other races). Plus why wouldn’t priory individuals find it interesting to talk to a scholar that may have spoken to the gods themselves, or a noble who was of high rank to learn about life in those times. Plus Vigil manpower could be saved by using the spell to free the minions instead of losing men day in and day out trying to kill them all off. It is a long shot of a possible story, and there is a good chance it would never be picked up on, but in my mind it is more likely than the Iron Legion coming in with bull dozers and plowing out the old ruins to create a new naval port.
No one knows that Zhaitan knows about the cleansing ritual. I mean Kralkatorrik isn’t friends with Zhaitan, and he didn’t seem to know about the betrayal until after he went to sleep (either that or Glint hid herself as well as the other races). Plus why wouldn’t priory individuals find it interesting to talk to a scholar that may have spoken to the gods themselves, or a noble who was of high rank to learn about life in those times. Plus Vigil manpower could be saved by using the spell to free the minions instead of losing men day in and day out trying to kill them all off. It is a long shot of a possible story, and there is a good chance it would never be picked up on, but in my mind it is more likely than the Iron Legion coming in with bull dozers and plowing out the old ruins to create a new naval port.
given the time and possibley also magic power needed to cast the spell makes it very unlikely to be used in a massive scale, tho alot of the people here have allready agreed that a human goverment wont get orr but that the temples and stuff like that wont be torn down in any way and most likely will be restored, but also that none off the races will get it atleast if its done by claim and a free handover(there are diffrent ways for humans to get it, one being tradeing/buying it off the pact), there also the chance that the pact sets up a goverment there so they can get a income of gold and supply to help agienst the other dragons(if possible at the time) or to make sure that there is always a safe place for all races if needed.
Orr did not forfeit the war and achieved ultimate victory over the charr army – even tho they sacrificed too much.
Orr destroyed itself. That’s the biggest admission of defeat you can have. Intentional or not, the actions of one man without approval of his king or not, it doesn’t matter. The Charr survived, the Orrians didn’t, and Orr sank into the sea. Victor, by Survival: THE CHARR! You can’t claim victory if you’re dead. Even Adlebrain knows that and he still kitten ed his whole kingdom to ghostly unlife to spite the Charr. Same result: Victory for the Charr. A troublesome victory with a host of problems to be dealt with constantly, but victory nonetheless.
I have to disagree with this based entirely on the fact that there are still Orrians in Orr as we speak! HA THEY SURVIVED! (and in case you don’t get it, this was a joke)
Seriously speaking though, with the use of the now known forgotten spell the Pact could go about trying to cleanse the minions and for all we know there could be a continent full of Orrians once more. Why you ask? Simple, the same reason the forgotten freed Glint. To learn more about the Elder Dragons. I understand this is a crazy thought, but in the end it IS a possibility.
I’m not opposed to this, actually. If they can be cleansed and returned to human status, then that would be a good thing. Being originally from Orr, casualties of the Elder Dragons, they would be allowed first claim to any reclaimed fertile land for steading, but even then, the likelihood of there being enough nobles and/or royalty cleansed to make a functional government is minimal.
Charr cares about healthy environment (no one wants to live in wasteland
I lol’d so hard. Searing, anyone?
- Here live the humans, who stole this land from us, killed our ancestors and slowly but constantly continue their expansion. We can engage and win war with em, but land will be seriously damaged by our combat magic. Natural recovering process will take alot of time.
- Oh no, we cannot damage the lands, lets wait until humans will push further and exterminate us completely! Environment must be saved at all costs!
Or charrs should grow balls and fight like men.
Or charrs should grow balls and fight like men.
No, men should grow some thicker skin and fight like Charr.
Or charrs should grow balls and fight like men.
No, men should grow some thicker skin and fight like Charr.
I hope they never run into a wall then, the Charr have problems with those unless they beg some overpower to do it for them.
Or charrs should grow balls and fight like men.
No, men should grow some thicker skin and fight like Charr.
I hope they never run into a wall then, the Charr have problems with those unless they beg some overpower to do it for them.
Y, charrs are such backstabbers boasters. Without the flame legion and their ‘gods’, they couldn’t have defeated the humans.
Now they say “charrs killed their gods (fake) and don’t need any to achieve goals” and they outcasted the flame legion. Thankful bunch of people.
Or charrs should grow balls and fight like men.
Like humans you mean? Conquer with help in form of power from supernatural beings? Oh, the irony…
Maybe we could build our player houses there. With cow and chicken.
Maybe we could build our player houses there. With cow and chicken.
It would make a good place for them to put the Guild Halls that are missing from GW2.
Or charrs should grow balls and fight like men.
Like humans you mean? Conquer with help in form of power from supernatural beings? Oh, the irony…
Balthazar only motivated the humans, while charrs got direct help.
Most history doesn’t point towards the humans having any extra assistance in the battle. Pretty much Balthazar pointed and said destroy and the humans destroyed. From what we can tell magic, when it was released, was released to everyone at once. It wasn’t a “humans only so they have an advantage” situation, unless the history we have been told changes. The only perspective that states that humanity was wielding magic when pushing the charr out was the charr perspective. And could probably be credited to bias, believing that humans could never have won without some advantage. Remember, human history isn’t the only history in Tyria that can be wrong.
Balthazar only motivated the humans, while charrs got direct help.
And who give magic to the humans ?
Balthazar only motivated the humans, while charrs got direct help.
And who give magic to the humans ?
Abaddon gave magic to everyone, all races.
But but only humans was specialists in magical arts. Raw power is nothing if you have no idea how to use it.
Alright, here are some links to lore. I understand it’s not perfect, but a lot of these dates are very well understood. Before the exodus of the gods there was 1 human nation with two “states” Orr and Ascalon. Orr was founded in 205 BE and Ascalon around 100 BE. Source for the date of the founding of Ascalon was from the GW Prophecies manuscripts. The date of the founding of Orrian humanity was found in game in a few instances, though my mind cannot tell you exactly where.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orr
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ascalon
Now when you talk about humanity having specialists in magic I can only assume you mean the acolytes of the gods mentioned in the Scriptures. Well, if you look into it you will see that there are only 3 of these “specialists” mentioned in the world. You have Desmina (Grenth), Doric (Dwayna), and Sara (Lyssa). Doric was apparently the earliest gifted with any magical ability because the scriptures mentioning him date from 115 BE, roughly the point of Ascalon’s capture. I do have to point out, though, that the magic, if any, that Doric would have used in war against the Charr was healing magic. He was gifted with the ability to heal and protect others. No raining down fire on your enemies or pulling minions out of your enemies corpses, no he could merely keep his friends alive a little longer.
Source: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dwayna
Desmina and Sara come from much later in the time period. Grenth’s Scriptures date from 48 BE and Lyssa’s scriptures from 45 BE. This means there were not “specialists” in mesmerism or necromancy until a full 50 years after the founding of Ascalon.
Sources:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lyssa
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Grenth
No I will agree that exactly how magic worked then is unknown. I mean the original history makes it seem like magic didn’t exist in the world until 1BE when Abaddon released it to all the sentient races, but at the same time you can see that some people did have training in magic before that period. A recent development with Angel McCoy seems to point to magic having been released by all the gods about 100 years before their exodus, which lead to the other races having the ability to slowly learn similar to humanity. Now humanity may have had some early victories through the use of magic, perhaps help from the gods, or perhaps just naturally being adept at it, but the end result was the same. In 1 BE King Doric called on the gods to remove magic because humanity was being destroyed on all fronts by enemies using magic, and the gods did what we already know they did and shattered the bloodstone and created the fields of magic.
However you look at it, humanity never had any major advantage over the other races, until historical evidence changes once more. Magic was most likely given to everyone at once, and with the exception of a possible blessing from Balthazar, humanity still won the battle without excessive help from the gods (seeing as at the very least Dwayna was opposed to humanity conquering the other races).
(edited by Narcemus.1348)
Working through some of the topics that have come up:
Charr versus Orrian victory: The simplest and probably most accurate way of describing things is that BOTH sides lost – trying to wrangle a victory for either side is simply rules-lawyering. So you have the charr with no claim, of conquest or any other form, while humans, particularly humans of Orrian descent, have ties of history, culture, and religion to the land. Being covered by human-built structures, it was pretty obviously human beforehand.
More importantly, the political situation needs to be considered. First, even if the Imperators claimed Orr as a victory, I don’t think the Pact would regard a pyrrhic so-called victory that resulted in so much trouble later on (after all, if it wasn’t for that invasion, then Orr would have been able to put up at least token resistance to Zhaitan rather than serving an army up to him on a platter) as a valid basis for a claim, particularly one that would be as controversial as granting the antitheistic charr control of the holiest places in human theology.
Second, placing such a claim would sabotage the peace treaty with humans that, despite what some people might claim, the charr want and need as much as humans do. It wouldn’t necessarily destroy the treaty, but at best it would allow those already opposed to the treaty to spin it as a holy war rather than the simple conflict over territory it’s been since Scorchrazor’s rebellion, if not before. Jennah’s political position is tentative enough – if her opponents can leverage “the holy land is in the hands of godhating infidel beasts!” against her, that might be the tipping point, and the treaty disappears in smoke with Jennah’s reign. And that’s without even considering that such a claim would be a reminder that the charr were ultimately responsible for Orr’s destruction in the first place (yes, I know Khilbron pulled the trigger, but it was the charr that gave him a reason).
By contrast, supporting a human claim to Orr serves to soften the blow of losing Ascalon. It allows those charr who were part of the Pact to assert that while their ancestors may have been responsible for destroying Orr, modern charr are different and were in fact partially responsible for restoring it. it grants legitimacy to the charr claim based on Ascalon of prior habitation, through respecting humanity’s similar claim of prior habitation of Orr. It’s generally a massive PR boost for the pro-treaty faction among humanity, and in the long run the charr probably stand much more to gain from the treaty than one patch of land. If they have spare capacity, they could even sweeten the deal by having the ports I expect they would set up on Orr either way put their troops at the disposal of local security forces, similar to the deals between the various allied legions. (Which, to be honest, is what I suspect Smodur and Malice are aiming for, especially if Smodur is serious about eliminating the office of the Khan-Ur entirely – setting up a situation whereby from the charr perspective, the human kingdoms are effectively another set of allied legions.)
At the bottom line, regardless of what claim they may or may not have, I think it’s simply not in the long-term interests of the charr to levy a claim. It serves them better to have humanity as a whole being grateful to them for their contribution in restoring it than reopening old wounds by trying to claim it.
On the sylvari claim: I’d certainly concede that they probably have the second-best claim. For the reasons I’ve discussed, though, this is probably a strike in humanity’s favour, since the sylvari probably won’t exercise it for themselves, but humans and sylvari get along fairly well. I also noticed after participating in kicking Teq’s donkey last night that a sylvari member of the Vigil tells a hylek “if you fight with us, you’ll get your land back” – suggesting that the sylvari, the Vigil, or both are favourable to giving races their ancestral lands back when possible… and there certainly is significant human involvement in the war effort.
Regarding sylvari having a strong influence – I think that’s pretty much guaranteed. Like I said, humans and sylvari get along fairly well – there’s mention in an ambient conversation in Kryta that farmers have been employing sylvari expertise to help with the growing of crops – additionally, human settlers in Orr are likely to be of the more religious persuasion, and that includes Melandru. If the sylvari announce that they’re going to be arriving in Orr in number to ensure the rejuvenation process goes smoothly, I expect the human response would be the Tyrian equivalent of “oh, don’t throw me in that briar patch.”
Finally, then claims by existing Orrians is one I’ve raised before. As an aside, it’s worth mentioning that there’s at least one human in Malchor’s Leap that claims Orrian ancestry (she’s Priory, I think, looking for signs of her family in the area). Apart from the possibility of a large influx of living Orrians looking to return to their land (they’ve largely kept quiet about their ancestry, but that doesn’t mean they’ve (all) forgotten among themselves), the possible application of the Forgotten ritual shouldn’t be overlooked.
That said, we also shouldn’t overstate its likely effect. First, the ritual only restores the mind of the subject – the chicken used to test the ritual remained a Risen, albeit one with the mind of a chicken rather than that of a dragon minion. Second, the ritual seems to require a significant investment – it’s probably not going to be practical to try to cleanse every Risen in Orr, just a few key individuals. However, a cleansed High Priest or former monarch of Orr is probably going to be given a say in Orr’s future, and chances are they’re going to be more favourable to humanity.
However, a cleansed High Priest or former monarch of Orr is probably going to be given a say in Orr’s future, and chances are they’re going to be more favourable to humanity.
And chances to get another Joko.
charr can try claim or same can humans but in the end it will boil down to what the pact wants as they conquered the land from Zhietan and that is no matter the intent they had by killing him they still conquered hes kingdom and hes kingdom is at the time of hes death the land masses of orr.
so if the pact(currently the leaders of the oders and trehearn) see it as the pact gets more out of orr by holding it and setting up a goverment there then thats what they do and no race has any right to stop them unless they declare the pact war.
While it’s true that the Pact will keep their own interests at heart in whatever decisions they make, none of the Pact’s leaders seem to want to build an empire and rule it for themselves. The Vigil would rather fight the dragons than be bogged down in administration. The Priory would rather do research.
Of the three, it’s the Order of Whispers that’s most likely to care, since politics is their mandate for one, and because being forced out of the shadows might lead to a restructuring of how the Order operates for two, which may lead to developing a branch that handles administration directly. But I think they’d still prefer to slip back into the shadows and let someone else handle that – even if they’re a substantial power behind the throne.
And it’s worth noting there – again – 1) the Order of Whispers was originally a human organisation, and there are a lot of indications that humans are still the dominant race in the Order, and 2) the Order of Whispers views supporting Jennah over Caudecus as a high priority, and will be well aware of the political ramifications in Kryta of how the Orr question is settled.
However, a cleansed High Priest or former monarch of Orr is probably going to be given a say in Orr’s future, and chances are they’re going to be more favourable to humanity.
And chances to get another Joko.
The possibility of an undead king of Orr being elevated was one that crossed my mind. Probably not such a bad plan, if the result is a decent and effective monarch that won’t die of old age.
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