Guild Wars 2

Except that there’s that magical ritual to help Orr recover. We really don’t have any yardstick on whether that’s going to take years, decades, or centuries to spread to the entirety of Orr, but the Artesian Waters themselves are definitely cleansed.

@Korsbaek: Ports are to be expected, but don’t need any more of a claim than a guarantee of having the port. Heck, they could plant their embassy in the port area and kill two proverbial birds with one stone.

Regarding farms and factories, three points:

First, there would be logistical issues with having their war material being produced so far away.

Second, other races, humans and sylvari in particular, would likely object to Orr being turned into a charr munitions factory.

Third, in the case of food – as long as they retain good relations with their allies, any food supplies that get disrupted in their own homelands can be resolved by trading supplies with their allies – and the smaller the charr investment in Orr (or anywhere else), the more the charr will have to fight their enemies in their homelands.

draxynnic.3719:

Except that there’s that magical ritual to help Orr recover. We really don’t have any yardstick on whether that’s going to take years, decades, or centuries to spread to the entirety of Orr, but the Artesian Waters themselves are definitely cleansed.

@Korsbaek: Ports are to be expected, but don’t need any more of a claim than a guarantee of having the port. Heck, they could plant their embassy in the port area and kill two proverbial birds with one stone.

Regarding farms and factories, three points:

First, there would be logistical issues with having their war material being produced so far away.

Second, other races, humans and sylvari in particular, would likely object to Orr being turned into a charr munitions factory.

Third, in the case of food – as long as they retain good relations with their allies, any food supplies that get disrupted in their own homelands can be resolved by trading supplies with their allies – and the smaller the charr investment in Orr (or anywhere else), the more the charr will have to fight their enemies in their homelands.

the logistick nightmare is kinda easy to solve with a asura gate.
the other races have just as much to say as the charr in the matter so that would be both ways
food is always good to spread out so they have a reserve if something happens, and i doubt that the norn would be able to sustain the charr population if they lost all there farm land in there current land.

Cows. cows will inherit Orr. they will become mighty archmooges and conquer the rest of tyria.

While we as PCs can pass through gates for free, lorewise they’re expensive to use, especially for transporting freight. Most trade in Tyria still happens by conventional means, and it’s unlikely that the charr are going to want their supply lines relying on gates – especially since conversations in the area around the Black Citadel gate shows that the charr don’t really trust the gates.

More significantly, if the charr maintain good relations with whoever it is in Orr, then any food production in Orr that goes to the charr… doesn’t need to be done by charr, freeing up more charr to do do the actual fighting. If they maintain good relations with humans and Kryta beats off its enemies, there’s another potential source of food. Furthermore, any regions of charr territory that are not so hotly contested as Ascalon are all likely sources.

Right now, all your justifications are really coming across as “but…but…charr want to seize ALL of the land!” Which they may well want to, but they’ve also developed the political acumen to know that you can get more by being less overtly acquisitive.

draxynnic.3719:

While we as PCs can pass through gates for free, lorewise they’re expensive to use, especially for transporting freight. Most trade in Tyria still happens by conventional means, and it’s unlikely that the charr are going to want their supply lines relying on gates – especially since conversations in the area around the Black Citadel gate shows that the charr don’t really trust the gates.

More significantly, if the charr maintain good relations with whoever it is in Orr, then any food production in Orr that goes to the charr… doesn’t need to be done by charr, freeing up more charr to do do the actual fighting. If they maintain good relations with humans and Kryta beats off its enemies, there’s another potential source of food. Furthermore, any regions of charr territory that are not so hotly contested as Ascalon are all likely sources.

Right now, all your justifications are really coming across as “but…but…charr want to seize ALL of the land!” Which they may well want to, but they’ve also developed the political acumen to know that you can get more by being less overtly acquisitive.

even at high prices for gates there are other ways to transport things with and if im not much mistaken the cheapest is by ship.
and giving land to a potential enemy is not smart and the charr dont trust humans yet and it will proberly be a very very long time before they do.
and if humans want a good relation ship with the rest of the races they will not take anything for themself to rule;)

Korsbaek.9803:

and giving land to a potential enemy is not smart and the charr dont trust humans yet

And they never will if they treat everyone as enemies and make SURE that EVERYONE knows that the Charr legions want to be in a position to attack anyone at a moments notice.

Korsbaek.9803:

and it will proberly be a very very long time before they do.

Or never with the path your setting out.

Korsbaek.9803:

and if humans want a good relation ship with the rest of the races they will not take anything for themself to rule

As stated before, there’s no reason for anyone else but Sylvari and Humans to go to Orr in reasonable numbers before it is cleansed. Logically implying that by the time Orr is cleansed the bulk of the population would likely be Sylvari and Human, just because they have a reason to go that isn’t simply “benefits”. They’ll go for religion, heritage, life purpose (Sylvari cleansing corruption), etc.
What reason do the Charr have?
“Oh…umm…hey….can we place soldiers we can’t afford to move here so we can have the option to go to war with you guys? Oh and btw…LET’S BE FWENDS!”
If the Charr didn’t have more pressing matters than fighting humans they wouldn’t have stopped fighting over Ebonhawke.
You have literally provided no reason for Orr to end up with a burgeoning Charr population other than “to screw everyone else over”.

Lostwingman.5034:

And they never will if they treat everyone as enemies and make SURE that EVERYONE knows that the Charr legions want to be in a position to attack anyone at a moments notice.

This is standard when ruling a nation. Wise rulers plan for likely contingencies. And other nations understand that. It’s a state of readiness that all strong nations strive for.

Alright, this is the only fair way we can do this. In this scenario Kralkatorrik flies back up and makes a home out of the blood legion homelands.

Asura get Arah
Humans get the Far Shiverpeaks
Norn get the Blood Legion homelands (after killing Kralky)
Charr get the Maguuma Jungle (from Mordremoth obviously)
And Sylvari get Quora Sum

It’s only fair that if humans don’t get their homelands no one else will

Asuming Blood legion is destroyed the way the Orrian kingdom was. But Blood legion is playable so that probably won’t happen.

But I would still say that every race would be in Blood legion territory. Not just charr or [insert favorite race].

Oh yes, Kralky was cranky after the events of Edge of Destiny. He went up there and stomped the whole region into a massive nasty branded zone. The Blood Legion packed up and built up a new citadel in the zones to the east that they also own (note I am only talking the Blood Legion Homelands we see in game. It is stated their lands go further east). So the Blood Legion still have lands, a citadel, and so on. They just can’t EVER return to their homelands because the NORN own it now! MUAHAHAHAHA!

Norn seem very stingy. why they can’t share with everyone else?

Lostwingman.5034:

Korsbaek.9803:

and giving land to a potential enemy is not smart and the charr dont trust humans yet

And they never will if they treat everyone as enemies and make SURE that EVERYONE knows that the Charr legions want to be in a position to attack anyone at a moments notice.

Korsbaek.9803:

and it will proberly be a very very long time before they do.

Or never with the path your setting out.

Korsbaek.9803:

and if humans want a good relation ship with the rest of the races they will not take anything for themself to rule

As stated before, there’s no reason for anyone else but Sylvari and Humans to go to Orr in reasonable numbers before it is cleansed. Logically implying that by the time Orr is cleansed the bulk of the population would likely be Sylvari and Human, just because they have a reason to go that isn’t simply “benefits”. They’ll go for religion, heritage, life purpose (Sylvari cleansing corruption), etc.
What reason do the Charr have?
“Oh…umm…hey….can we place soldiers we can’t afford to move here so we can have the option to go to war with you guys? Oh and btw…LET’S BE FWENDS!”
If the Charr didn’t have more pressing matters than fighting humans they wouldn’t have stopped fighting over Ebonhawke.
You have literally provided no reason for Orr to end up with a burgeoning Charr population other than “to screw everyone else over”.

first off you dont need to have any number of elite trained soldiers there you will need a few soldiers to keep peace the rest would proberly be farmers from the charr side but that does not make there numbers any less.

and i never said that charr should rule the land alone, if a single nation is going to rule the land alone it going to be sylvari given they are most likely the only race able to pull it off but it wont fit there current nature.
charr is proberly going to have some of the land same with humans and asura maybe sylvari to if they need it.

Narcemus.1348:

Alright, this is the only fair way we can do this. In this scenario Kralkatorrik flies back up and makes a home out of the blood legion homelands.

Asura get Arah
Humans get the Far Shiverpeaks
Norn get the Blood Legion homelands (after killing Kralky)
Charr get the Maguuma Jungle (from Mordremoth obviously)
And Sylvari get Quora Sum

It’s only fair that if humans don’t get their homelands no one else will

if all the nations is needed to clear the areas they will most likely be devided according to the attentends for it in some way.

My point is. Each nation has zones effected that will most likely be returned to them. The main current exceptions are charr and sylvari. Charr still have a huge swath of land that will be cleansed though, and the sylvari don’t really have “claim” to anything, nor do try to. So why, when most every race would get their land back, are we not willing to give the human land back to the humans? Well, plain and simple, because the people on this forum just don’t seem to like humans, lol. (obviously minus those sticking up for human kind.)

It’s my impression that most everyone not in favor of giving all this newly reclaimed land to humanity only, is in favor of everybody sharing it because everybody helped get it. While playable humanity still retains the land that they have. That doesn’t seem to demonstrate any animosity toward humanity. In fact, it seems fair across the board.

The ones in favor of giving it to humanity seem to be looking for a hand out, as far as I can tell. “You do the work and then give it to us”. Doesn’t seem practical or reasonable at all.

Humanity keeps kryta. The human nation isn’t losing out on any land since they never owned it. I don’t see how it is viewed as “a human nation losing land when no one else will”.

draxynnic.3719:

Except that there’s that magical ritual to help Orr recover. We really don’t have any yardstick on whether that’s going to take years, decades, or centuries to spread to the entirety of Orr, but the Artesian Waters themselves are definitely cleansed.

Nor do we know the exact effects the cleansing has. It could be a magic terraforming spell and I’m completely wrong, it could just take Zhaitan’s radiant energy from things like the temples, or it could even be some sort of opposing force spreading its ‘pureness’ in opposition and make another grove that may or may not have a pale tree and contain life native to there but not to pre cataclysm Orr. Although what ever happens, we probably won’t see it because it will a few years at the very least, and the ‘demilitarizing’ will take several years before it settles to whatever it will be until the next disaster hits it.

Dustfinger.9510:

It’s my impression that most everyone not in favor of giving all this newly reclaimed land to humanity only, is in favor of everybody sharing it because everybody helped get it. While playable humanity still retains the land that they have. That doesn’t seem to demonstrate any animosity toward humanity. In fact, it seems fair across the board.

The ones in favor of giving it to humanity seem to be looking for a hand out, as far as I can tell. “You do the work and then give it to us”. Doesn’t seem practical or reasonable at all.

Humanity keeps kryta. The human nation isn’t losing out on any land since they never owned it. I don’t see how it is viewed as “a human nation losing land when no one else will”.

Humanity played a part, and the fact remains that it’s a heck of a lot more important to humans than anyone else.

For humans, it’s their Holy City, the place where they and their gods first set foot on Tyria, and also, let’s not forget, the only place where contact with a direct representative of one of the gods has been made for nearly two and a half centuries. This is stuff that is incredibly important for humans… and trivial to everyone else.

Furthermore, there are certain fundamental assumptions with alliances. One of those assumptions is that if an alliance retakes land that once belonged to one of it’s constituent members, that land goes back to that member. It isn’t parceled out to all of the others. When the Western Allies liberated France in 1944, for instance, it wasn’t parceled out between the US and the UK. Instead, the nation of France was reinstated.

Yes, I know Kryta isn’t formally part of the Pact yet… but it is an ally of the Pact, and we see a lot of human Pact soldiers that started out in the Seraph – and were presumably given official sanction to join the Pact rather than just going AWOL. Kryta isn’t a Pact member, but it is an ally, and humans fought as part of the retaking of Orr. It’s not a matter of asking for a handout. Humans participated, it’s not unreasonable for them to expect the land to return to humanity.

The flipside is that when human forces assist in pushing Jormag north, or in recovering the old asura homelands in the Depths, they step aside and let their allies reoccupy their old lands in turn.

And for those people who I’m sure are no doubt winding out to point out that Kryta and Orr are different, I say once again: Sophistry. We’re talking about the holiest place on Tyria in human culture for (quite literally) the gods’ sakes.

draxynnic.3719:

Dustfinger.9510:

It’s my impression that most everyone not in favor of giving all this newly reclaimed land to humanity only, is in favor of everybody sharing it because everybody helped get it. While playable humanity still retains the land that they have. That doesn’t seem to demonstrate any animosity toward humanity. In fact, it seems fair across the board.

The ones in favor of giving it to humanity seem to be looking for a hand out, as far as I can tell. “You do the work and then give it to us”. Doesn’t seem practical or reasonable at all.

Humanity keeps kryta. The human nation isn’t losing out on any land since they never owned it. I don’t see how it is viewed as “a human nation losing land when no one else will”.

Humanity played a part, and the fact remains that it’s a heck of a lot more important to humans than anyone else.

For humans, it’s their Holy City, the place where they and their gods first set foot on Tyria, and also, let’s not forget, the only place where contact with a direct representative of one of the gods has been made for nearly two and a half centuries. This is stuff that is incredibly important for humans… and trivial to everyone else.

Furthermore, there are certain fundamental assumptions with alliances. One of those assumptions is that if an alliance retakes land that once belonged to one of it’s constituent members, that land goes back to that member. It isn’t parceled out to all of the others. When the Western Allies liberated France in 1944, for instance, it wasn’t parceled out between the US and the UK. Instead, the nation of France was reinstated.

Yes, I know Kryta isn’t formally part of the Pact yet… but it is an ally of the Pact, and we see a lot of human Pact soldiers that started out in the Seraph – and were presumably given official sanction to join the Pact rather than just going AWOL. Kryta isn’t a Pact member, but it is an ally, and humans fought as part of the retaking of Orr. It’s not a matter of asking for a handout. Humans participated, it’s not unreasonable for them to expect the land to return to humanity.

The flipside is that when human forces assist in pushing Jormag north, or in recovering the old asura homelands in the Depths, they step aside and let their allies reoccupy their old lands in turn.

And for those people who I’m sure are no doubt winding out to point out that Kryta and Orr are different, I say once again: Sophistry. We’re talking about the holiest place on Tyria in human culture for (quite literally) the gods’ sakes.

your ww2 coment is kinda wrong as france still existed at the given time it got libriated same with most of the other lands that got libriated, and the reason france and alot of the other lands did go to uk and us is because of how they are build, plus they dont want the conflict with the remaining french people that helped them in the war to.

there is no reason for it to be on human hands for them to go to the temples and the areas where there gods came, and my gess is that each race will recpect the fact that there are human temples and stuff that they should not mess with tho that does not mean they cant not get the land and let humans use the temples.

^

The Holiest place is still accessable to humanity without everyone handing them a whole new kingdom. Humanity has lost nothing in this scenario where everyone shares.

Dustfinger.9510:

^

The Holiest place is still accessable to humanity without everyone handing them a whole new kingdom. Humanity has lost nothing in this scenario where everyone shares.

OMG! Stop talking sense! This isn’t the forum for it! Run, you fool, before they hear you!

Fine. As long as the charr, norn, and asura are willing to give 1/5th of their ancient heritage for humanity to do whatever it wants with (including bull dozing and rebuilding) go for it. And don’t say that the charr won’t bull doze human shrines by the dozens to clear land for use.

I honestly don’t see why you think there will be 5-6 multi-racial nations working in unison with the already existing 5-6 racial nations without any resulting wars. All I know is, I’m glad you guys aren’t in charge of the end result.

Plus Drakkon, don’t pretend you are calling for the multi-nation route. 90% of your arguments have been for full charr control of the territory (when they already have more land mass than any other existing race.)

asura and norn have lost almost all of their ancient heritage. and they don’t even get to share in it.

Something people should note; Orr wasn’t every human’s ancestral land, the old kingdoms of humanity weren’t buddy-buddy-let’s-drink-like-Norns-together, they regularly went to, often just because some of their guilds wanted something another guild had. I wouldn’t be surprised if it Arah was sacked by the Kyrtains and Ascolnians several times.
It’s also not as if important places have changed hands, Lion’s Arch was once the CAPITAL of Kryta.

That being said, humans should have the right to pilgrim no matter what, and the charr can’t be allowed to desecrate anything.

All of the Tyrian human kingdoms originated from Orr. Orr was THE human kingdom when smaller colonies eventually broke off and claimed their own throne. This does not make it no longer their heritage.

Narcemus.1348:

Plus Drakkon, don’t pretend you are calling for the multi-nation route. 90% of your arguments have been for full charr control of the territory (when they already have more land mass than any other existing race.)

A) I was discussing the Charr-only option, not calling for it. Charr-only is ridiculous, but the arguments could be made, so I did. For an expansionistic military race, you can never have too much land. Why does it surprise people that someone can argue a point that isn’t theirs?

B) ANet has already stated, several times to my knowledge, that if they develop Orr in the game, it will be the Pact that is most likely to control Orr under a multi-racial coalition, and it will be for the benefit of all.

C) Humans still don’t have the ability of manpower to control Orr, regardless of their cultural heritage or royal ties. Simply put, they can’t do it because they lack the logistical capacity. Multi-racial is the only way to logically go.

Debate may not be a skill taught in schools anymore, but if you’re going to hold a discussion on a forum, you should at least know how to do it. One person takes one position, and another takes the opposite. They exchange arguments and rebuttals until all possible avenues of discussion have been exhausted, and then they stop. It is for the audience to determine who had the stronger argument, not the debaters. Passion is no excuse for poor arguments. Just because you don’t like what the other side has to say isn’t a reason to descend into name-calling; that’s just conceding that you have lost the debate.

And know when to quit. Some people will argue illogical points until they’re blue in the face, failing to realize that they aren’t making any sense. In those cases, it’s best to walk away for a while and let things calm down. This has happened several times in this thread. That’s why I stop replying for a few days at a time. People are just so wrapped up in their arguments that they can’t see how patently ridiculous they are, particularly when they have already been refuted by the devs. Others have decided it is good and proper to just attack any of my arguments specifically, despite not having fully formed arguments with which to attack.

I don’t single out people to attack. I pick arguments that are either so wrong that I can’t believe they were even uttered, or people who have replied directly to me, called me out, or are discussing the issue I was discussing specifically. With only a few exceptions, I don’t get personal, although there was an argument I presented that someone took particular offense to. I can only surmise he had previous personal experience with the issue, and the general comment was taken wrong.

Still, I stepped back and let things cool down. It isn’t like I have any personal investment in there discussions. All told, the devs will determine the direction of new lore development, and our input on it will be minimal, if any.

So please stop calling me out specifically, like you have a vendetta against my even participating. I don’t mind if you want to call attention to the fact that you’re rebutting my arguments, but don’t try to make it personal. You can bait me (I"m only human, after all) but if you try I will think less of you for it.

Good debaters, like Dustfinger (with whom I love to have discussions) use sound logic, citations from many sources, and good debate skills to hold truly enjoyable discussions. We don’t always agree, but I have respect for their ability to hold a decent conversation.

Others of you, not so much. No names. You know who you are.

Dustfinger.9510:

asura and norn have lost almost all of their ancient heritage. and they don’t even get to share in it.

And when their ancestral lands are reclaimed, they should go to them, not be parceled out to everyone who happened to be in the multiracial coalition at the time it was achieved.

Drakkon.4782:

B) ANet has already stated, several times to my knowledge, that if they develop Orr in the game, it will be the Pact that is most likely to control Orr under a multi-racial coalition, and it will be for the benefit of all.

I was one of the people who ran that interview, and what they actually said was that the Pact currently controls Orr and will have a major part to play in deciding Orr’s long-term future. What the Pact’s actual plans for the future are for Orr or anywhere else, ArenaNet has been keeping close to their chest. But, for reasons I’ve elaborated on earlier in this thread, I don’t think the Pact is interested in continuing direct governance over Orr once it has stopped being a warzone and archaeological site and started being resettled.

(Incidentally, while reviewing the interview to make sure I hadn’t misremembered myself, I was reminded of the comment that there are at least some descendants of Orr alive, and there may be more elsewhere. If THEY present a claim, that pretty much throws out the whole “But Kryta and Orr are different nations!” objection. Of course, Kryta and Ascalon were different too, and Kryta now has de facto control over what’s left of Ascalon because Ebonhawke is essentially being propped up by Kryta’s strength.)

Drakkon.4782:

C) Humans still don’t have the ability of manpower to control Orr, regardless of their cultural heritage or royal ties. Simply put, they can’t do it because they lack the logistical capacity. Multi-racial is the only way to logically go.

That may be the situation now. It may not be when the moment arrives that resettling Orr is feasible for anyone, regardless of military capacity. Besides, a human nation of Orr that remains friendly to nonhumans could still have nonhuman assistance when required. My human characters have helped out from Metrica to the Iron Marches, but doesn’t lay a claim to those because they’ve fought there. You help your allies in achieving what’s important to them because they’ll help you in achieving what’s important to you, not because you’re planning to slice out chunks of what’s important to them on the slim justification that you fought there.

That sort of behaviour is how alliances fall apart. Believe me, even if it’s not at the top of their list of priorities right now, if the Pact announce they’re going to reinstate Orr as a human nation, that’d be a massive boost to public support for Jennah to get behind the Pact. If instead they parcel out the human holy land to anyone or everyone… that’s going to lead to resentment.

And the Order of Whispers – which, let me remind you, is an organisation originally formed to serve human interests and which is still lead by a human, and deep down may well still put human interests first even if it’s realised that those interests are best served by cooperation with other races – will know that.

draxynnic.3719:

That may be the situation now. It may not be when the moment arrives that resettling Orr is feasible for anyone, regardless of military capacity. Besides, a human nation of Orr that remains friendly to nonhumans could still have nonhuman assistance when required. My human characters have helped out from Metrica to the Iron Marches, but doesn’t lay a claim to those because they’ve fought there. You help your allies in achieving what’s important to them because they’ll help you in achieving what’s important to you, not because you’re planning to slice out chunks of what’s important to them on the slim justification that you fought there.

It’s feasible for the Pact. After all, they have boots on the ground there. They have de facto military command of the area. They control access to Orr. They control the land route, they control the only port (at this time), and they have air superiority over the other nations. And while I see them more as facilitators to the location, they have control.

That sort of behaviour is how alliances fall apart. Believe me, even if it’s not at the top of their list of priorities right now, if the Pact announce they’re going to reinstate Orr as a human nation, that’d be a massive boost to public support for Jennah to get behind the Pact. If instead they parcel out the human holy land to anyone or everyone… that’s going to lead to resentment.

The Pact isn’t going to announce that they’re reinstating Orr as a human nation. That wouldn’t make any sense. Trahearne didn’t purify and reclaim Orr so that it could be destroyed again by war among the races. With the three Orders under his belt it would be more logical and stable to set up administration of the land for anyone who wanted to setup a steading, and regulate archaeological excavations of temples and sites for the benefit of all. If any one race is allowed control, it will lead to conflict, not just resentment.

And the Order of Whispers – which, let me remind you, is an organisation originally formed to serve human interests and which is still lead by a human, and deep down may well still put human interests first even if it’s realised that those interests are best served by cooperation with other races – will know that.

Perhaps, but the Pact is run by a Sylvari and the Commander is a Charr (at least in my experience), so the Order of Whispers isn’t calling those shots. The Durmand Priory is run by an Asura, and the Vigil seems to be run by a Charr. We all have our little crosses to bear, and no one race has a distinct claim to anything outside of what they control now. I don’t see a single-race option as viable. As you said, this is how alliances fall apart.

draxynnic.3719:

And when their ancestral lands are reclaimed, they should go to them, not be parceled out to everyone who happened to be in the multiracial coalition at the time it was achieved.

I disagree. Museums would be very boring places if this was the norm. I’d leave it in the hands of whatever coalitions actually reclaimed it. Considering it was them who did the work. And considering that the items will be treated with dignity since many of those species are represented within the coalitions.

There is no doubt that Orr is ancestral human land, and that Kryta, as the single human nation on Tyria, has the strongest claim to it. It has been said countless times already, but some people just insist on what they call “arguments”, ignoring ingame reality. They have to differentiate between their own personal preferences and objective arguments, but some people are just unable to do so. Using personal attacks as a substitute for actual arguments doesn’t make a personal opinion any more right.

In fact no other nation has any claim to Orr besides humanity just because they possess military strength or some of them helped liberate Orr. Trying to claim Orr would most likely get opposition from the Pact, and no race will risk damaging the Pact or antagonizing it at this point, or in the forseeable future.

Should the Pact defeat all Elder Dragons it will have established itself as the guardian of Tyria as a whole, and be most likely in a position where it can decide over the future of Orr, if it hasn’t been decided by then (by a nation laying claim onto it or simply by nothing happening). If Orr remains unclaimed it will most likely be open for all races and nations without the Pact having to decide over it, and tolerating it. Cooperation and overcoming racial prejudices is a major theme of the game, conflict over Orr will just not happen because of that.

Should any nation other than humanity lay claim onto Orr they would set a precedent for others claiming their own lands – the Norn have lost their ancestral lands, and so do the Asura. The Sylvari ethics would surely not allow them to simply claim another species’ ancestral land (some of them settling there, if interested, is another point), which leaves the Charr (which, due to their history and behaviour i do not count among civilized nations).

The Charr do not possess the military strength and resources to occupy Orr without giving some of their plentyful enemies an opening – the Flame Legion would surely use the opportunity. Occupying Orr would antagonize the Pact and probably humanity, and the Charr need a peace treaty as desperately as Kryta needs it. Giving the Charr the “right through might” to claim Orr is wishful thinking and a theory, not an argument. They could not even conquer Ebonhawke (despite them trying to save face by claiming they lost interest). They couldn’t even overcome the Great Northern Wall without help from an evil (human) god. And the military resources they gave to the Pact are now outside of their control.

Kryta hasn’t shown any interest in Orr, so it will most likely be the Pact that will decide over the future of Orr, by making an active decision (which will most likely open Orr for every species) or by simply preventing pirates from claiming Orr and leaving it open for claims. And from which nation would those come? None has shown any interest in it.

Dustfinger.9510:

I’d leave it in the hands of whatever coalitions actually reclaimed it. Considering it was them who did the work. And considering that the items will be treated with dignity since many of those species are represented within the coalitions.

Do you not see how this would lead to future wars? I mean the Pact is a necessity at the moment due to the continued existence of the Elder Dragons, but what happens when the Elder Dragons are all dead. In this moment you would have a massive military alliance which holds claims to large swaths of land all over Tyria. Even minus backing from the Orders (assuming they bow out after the fight is done) this would be a threat in the eyes of many, charr specifically just based on their outlook on the world.

Frosch.7809:

Should any nation other than humanity lay claim onto Orr they would set a precedent for others claiming their own lands – the Norn have lost their ancestral lands, and so do the Asura. The Sylvari ethics would surely not allow them to simply claim another species’ ancestral land (some of them settling there, if interested, is another point), which leaves the Charr (which, due to their history and behaviour i do not count among civilized nations).

I will point out here that charr behavior is honestly not much more brutal than human behavior in the past. I mean PC’s in GW1 used to run around wearing the skins of they charr they killed as armor just to taunt the race. The war lead to inconceivably brutal and savage acts on BOTH sides. (See I can side with the charr on some subjects)

Frosch.7809:

Kryta hasn’t shown any interest in Orr, so it will most likely be the Pact that will decide over the future of Orr, by making an active decision (which will most likely open Orr for every species) or by simply preventing pirates from claiming Orr and leaving it open for claims. And from which nation would those come? None has shown any interest in it.

I also want to point out that Kryta hasn’t really had a chance to show any interest in Orr. Throughout the time that we had access to Krytan storyline, Orr was an impossible situation anyways. It wasn’t until the lvl 70+ storyline that reclaiming Orr seemed to be a real possibility, and any Krytans who have the power to show interest are only seen as high as maybe lvl 50. And the living story does not count to much at this moment because of it’s total disconnect from the Personal Story. Making it after Zhaitan, but completely ignoring the actions of the Personal Story so as not to create problems (which is a problem).

Narcemus.1348:

Do you not see how this would lead to future wars? I mean the Pact is a necessity at the moment due to the continued existence of the Elder Dragons, but what happens when the Elder Dragons are all dead. In this moment you would have a massive military alliance which holds claims to large swaths of land all over Tyria. Even minus backing from the Orders (assuming they bow out after the fight is done) this would be a threat in the eyes of many, charr specifically just based on their outlook on the world.

war between who, the various organizations of the pact who has humans in it and who else? None of the nations are laying claim to the land so who would be going to war? Especially, if the members of the pact form a whole new nation the way Lions arch did. sharing the land doesn’t automatically mean war.

edit: realistically, a whole new nation comprised of the various races who are there for the pact will rise long before kryta is in any kind of position to make a claim anyway.

What I am stating is, a single organization holding claim to, at the very least, Orr, the Far Shiverpeaks and the depths of tyria, with other land holdings being possibly the Crystal Desert (unless kralky went somewhere else) and the Maguuma Jungle (if that is where Mordremoth is). Do you not think that a single organization holding so much land and ruling so many people (assuming they create multi-racial nations in each zone) would seem like a threat to the much smaller racial nations?

Plus what does the Pact become post Elder Dragon? I mean killing the Elder Dragons was their reason for being created, but after the dragons are gone, minions are dead, and corruption is cleansed what do they become. Do they become Tyria’s Guardians? If so what are they guarding against? Are they controlling the politics of the other nations, because I know a few races that would grate against this (charr and human, strangely on the same side for once, lol). I just don’t see a situation where the Pact continues without leading to concequences. The smartest position IMO is for the pact to return the lands they reconquer to the people they conquered it from (I’m sure the quaggan would like to have their homes back as well) and after the dragons are dead it should dissolve back into it’s component parts, lest it risks becoming something like the Ministry of Purity.

I disagree with how you interpret the situation. The pact is a cooperation among three different organizations.

Aside from that, I doubt the Pact will be in controle of these new nations that spring up from the land they liberate. I think if nrew nations do spring up, it will be controlled by the immediate people living there. Not as some greater empire of a cooperation of multination organizations, which would be very difficult to organize and maintain.

Flippantly handing it to the far descendents of the the people that used to have it is very irresponsible, I think. It throws the tenuous balance off that has taken hundreds and in some cases thousands of years to achieve. I think that has a greater chance for war than anything.

edit: and deciding to give that land to one nation or another would actually be them taking the role of controlling the politics of the other nations and interfering with the politics between nations. Which would only lead to the problems you’ve already illustrated. I’d say the smartest thing for them to do is allow separate nations to spring up naturally from the people who are already there. The way Lions arch did. maybe provide some guidance for the establishment of the new government. But under no circumstances should they create some new empire. Be it by establishing their own or be it by handing a new kingdom over to an existing nation. It shouldn’t be done.

Dustfinger.9510:

realistically, a whole new nation comprised of the various races who are there for the pact will rise long before kryta is in any kind of position to make a claim anyway.

This is something i see as being the strongest possibility for the future of Orr. I still think that humanity will play a slightly more dominant role among the future inhabitants of Orr than other species, due to Orr’s religious importance for humanity.

About the possibility of a war, the Pact may dissolve at some point, but that is years into the future. Or it may continue to exist if the three orders want to go on cooperating. How much support they would still get from the nations is another question, but how much would the Pact still need?

But i don’t see the Pact itself as a territorial nation, as lands liberated from the dragons will surely be handed over to those nations who have a claim to it. Maybe nations is not the proper term at all, species. There must not necessarily be the control of a government behind it. Norn would return to their ancestral lands on their own for example. But if they did, they would still be subjects to the authority of Knut Whitebear.

Humans who would return to Orr could decide to see themselves as part of a new nation, or as subjects of Kryta, if the ruler of Kryta would assume authority over them – it would have to be a willful decision of Queen Jennah to see them as her subjects. Or she could just accept whatever government formed on its own in Orr, which seems to be most likely.

True, Jennah didn’t have much of a chance yet to react to the events in Orr as it is part of the personal story and separated from the Living World events. I do think that things will be left open because of it.

That’s ^ a much better explanation of how it will probably go. The land will likely be dominated by the ones who actually find it important to be there. not because some nations feels they have this strong a claim or that. IMO, mostly humans for the ones who maintain their religious views, some norn and charr who find homesteading in the dangerous land rewarding, sylvari who travel there and stay due to curiosity and wyld hunt. And finally a healthy mix from the various orders that are there for their orders interest and decide to stay.

No, I do not believe that the humans who would go to Orr would bow to Kryta, I do not believe this at all. I find it highly unlikely that Kryta would be able to spare any of it’s military in order to defend a colonization of a new human nation in Orr. More than likely it would be a situation where Queen Jennah gives people to opportunity to move to Orr should they wish, with the blessing of the crown. This would mean, if they so wished, Seraph and other portions of the military could leave of their own accord without deserting. I also never believed that it would be completely 100% human in population. I know for a fact that krewes of asura would wish to study artifacts, shrines, etc. Figure out how the magic connects Cathedrals to Shrines, etc… to further their magical studies. Sylvari would also be interested in staying in the land in order to further the cleansing/regrowth, and I do not believe that any human nation that arose would deny them access (of course should they be careful and respectful of what they are working with). I do not personally see why the norn would have any interest in the land though. They definitely do not seem to enjoy warmer climates (as seen in Southsun Cove) and once the risen army is defeated (which is likely to be the case before colonization becomes possible) there would be little for them to hunt. As for the Charr, they have no connection to the land when it comes to heritage, in fact going back there would most likely be putting salt on the wound when it comes to them having been pushed down there by their previous gods. Plus they have many, many lands they need to control and many enemies they need to defeat. Plus which Legion would claim control of the land? I doubt it would be a unified charr district, and any legion would have major logistical issues with maintaining control. I know Asura Gates are available, but let’s be honest. Charr hate depending on technology which is not under their control, and they further do not trust the asura, seeing how they have rigged the entire gate bridge in the Black Citadel to blow at even the slightest notion of invasion from outside.

My personal opinion is that the land would remain under human governance for the most part. This is my opinion and nothing you can say will change it. That said, I think the second highest population level will probably be Sylvari, which I highly doubt any humans would fight. And the third highest population, which would be rather low, would be asura research krewes. I can think of no reason charr or norn would want to be there, short of war efforts. But overall this population would remain under a human government whose ties with the Krytan throne are probably just based on common race. I understand many of you disagree, think we should have another council of somethingorothers, but I personally cannot see the logical reason for most other of the races to try and CONTROL the land.

@Dustfinger:
If someone stole your property, the police caught the person, and then distributed it amongst themselves would you be very happy? I understand it isn’t a perfect analogy, but where you seem to think that “flippantly” handing it back to the people who have connections to it would be an issue, I personally think that “flippantly” handing it over to anyone and everyone that wants it would be more of a smack in the face of humanity than anything else. The Pact may be strong, but they rely on the resources of the nations/organizations. We know that the Pact are using Charr tanks, and also at least some manpower that used to be seraph (which at the moment we assume was allowed into the pact, rather than that they deserted their people in order to fight). The Pact has to keep friendly with those who support them, they would fall apart otherwise.

Narcemus.1348:

@Dustfinger:
If someone stole your property, the police caught the person, and then distributed it amongst themselves would you be very happy? I understand it isn’t a perfect analogy, but where you seem to think that “flippantly” handing it back to the people who have connections to it would be an issue, I personally think that “flippantly” handing it over to anyone and everyone that wants it would be more of a smack in the face of humanity than anything else. The Pact may be strong, but they rely on the resources of the nations/organizations. We know that the Pact are using Charr tanks, and also at least some manpower that used to be seraph (which at the moment we assume was allowed into the pact, rather than that they deserted their people in order to fight). The Pact has to keep friendly with those who support them, they would fall apart otherwise.

if someone stole my distant cousins property and then someone elses distant ancestors ended up owning it, there wouldn’t be much I could do. And trying to reclaim that propert after 250 years would be an excersise in futility. A connection isn’t automatically a “right”. In fact I think risking your own life and limb is more right than a distant ancestorial connection.

edit: So the issue as I explained above is that by giving it to humanity, they become the ones who are interfering with national policies and ties. And they risk creating an empire wich has a high chance of war. Both things you are strongly against and broght up as specific reasons to do something.

edit 2: going to work. Will be back after the Mayweather/Conello fight.

Narcemus.1348:

@Dustfinger:
If someone stole your property, the police caught the person, and then distributed it amongst themselves would you be very happy? I understand it isn’t a perfect analogy, but where you seem to think that “flippantly” handing it back to the people who have connections to it would be an issue, I personally think that “flippantly” handing it over to anyone and everyone that wants it would be more of a smack in the face of humanity than anything else. The Pact may be strong, but they rely on the resources of the nations/organizations. We know that the Pact are using Charr tanks, and also at least some manpower that used to be seraph (which at the moment we assume was allowed into the pact, rather than that they deserted their people in order to fight). The Pact has to keep friendly with those who support them, they would fall apart otherwise.

i dont know how long but after a given time anything stolen from you is not your anymore(one reason is your dead).
lets make it a little more to our situation then.
someone steals your land and submerge it/make impossible to live there, now after 250 years it becomes possible to live there agien and your great great great ants grandson wants to claim it as hes, will he get it?
we can also use the current situation we have at chernobyl who owns the land and houses there? the former residents families or none(i know the stat owns it still but what persons own it now is the question)

Someone finds a lost ship in international waters full of Spanish doubloons. Spain doesn’t get that gold. Random Spanish descendants in Mexico and Puerto Rico don’t get that gold. The salvagers of that gold get that gold.

The bonus here is that there are Spanish descendants in the salvage expedition. So they get to share in that gold, along with all the rest of the salvagers, reguardless of their heritage.

@Dustfinger that example doesn’t really work since that is due to international laws that countries have agreed on.

Orr is a different beast when it comes time to decide if an individual nation gets it, it gets split up for all nations to have a little bit of, or the Pact retains control of it. In my opinion giving it to an individual nation or Pact control would be the best options, splitting it up may hurt feelings which ‘could’ lead to war between the nations for control over all of the land. As has been said before the Humans, particularly the ones that can actually prove Orrian heritage, and Sylvari have the best claims since one is the prior major race living there and it is their literal home land. The other because they will most likely be the ones to cleanse the land bringing it back to life.

The other three races I don’t see having much interest in it other than a deep water port for the Charr, things to study for the Asuran, and I don’t see the Norn wanting it at all but that’s me.

I think it works pretty well since even though a heritage is established, it is in a free for all zone. Which mirrors Orr. So the international law that not everyone has actually agreed upon is mirrors the fact that there is no higher law to say that any one nation has more right than another. Or that just because someone can claim some distant heritage, they have any more entitlement.

edit: and the ones that have agreed upon international law have really just come to terms with the fact that no one has any real jurisdiction beyond the ones that actually possess the items. Which is an issue that bears strong ties to this thread.

What your thinking of is maritime law that has crimes (like piracy) that can be prosecuted by the members of the international maritime commission. But that tends to cover things that would be categorized as criminal acts. And only really covers things that would be classified as civil disputes, when it deals with immediate ownership. Not distant ownership.

Okay, let’s see how many pieces I’ll need to cut this into…

Drakkon.4782:

It’s feasible for the Pact. After all, they have boots on the ground there. They have de facto military command of the area. They control access to Orr. They control the land route, they control the only port (at this time), and they have air superiority over the other nations. And while I see them more as facilitators to the location, they have control.

The last sentence, I have complete agreement with. Well, the entire paragraph is true, but it misses the point entirely:

The Pact, as we currently know it, has no interest in governing. The Priory is a research organisation. The Vigil is a multinational army formed to fight the dragons, not to build its own little empire. And the Order… would probably like to be the power behind the throne of every kingdom in the world, but they’re not about to publicly set up their own Empire of Whispers. For now, Orr is purely a military occupation – but once that changes, they’re almost certainly going to want to hand it off to someone else.

The credible options for that “someone else” is to form a human kingdom there, on the assumption that said human kingdom would be friendly to the Pact and the races that support it, or a multiracial representative government – which, most likely, would end up being a de facto human government because humans have that much more incentive to settle there than anyone else (followed by the sylvari and quaggan, which are coincidentally probably humanity’s closest friends among the currently extant races).

The Pact isn’t going to announce that they’re reinstating Orr as a human nation. That wouldn’t make any sense. Trahearne didn’t purify and reclaim Orr so that it could be destroyed again by war among the races. With the three Orders under his belt it would be more logical and stable to set up administration of the land for anyone who wanted to setup a steading, and regulate archaeological excavations of temples and sites for the benefit of all. If any one race is allowed control, it will lead to conflict, not just resentment.

Why would it?

The other races all benefit from the precedent. For the asura and norn, setting that precedent means that they’ll get the same claim over their own ancestral lands when those get recovered. For the charr, it adds legitimacy to their claim over Ascalon if they recognise that humans have prior claim to Orr. And the sylvari… well, they don’t care.

Furthermore, the assumption is that the human nation in question will be friendly to the Pact specifically and multiracial cooperation in general, and such a nation would probably happily allow members of allied races to live their as equals – as long as they’re willing to respect human culture and sensibilities. And anyone who isn’t willing to do so, if given free reign in Orr, WILL cause conflict. Imagine what would happen if some charr starts demolishing shrines in Orr because they offend their sensibilities, and Jennah or the human leader of the day does nothing.

This is also, incidentally, completely ignoring the role Cantha and other human realms might play. Cantha is a lot less likely to decide to launch a crusade to reclaim the Holy Land if it’s in the hands of believers in the first place.

Drakkon.4782:

Perhaps, but the Pact is run by a Sylvari and the Commander is a Charr (at least in my experience), so the Order of Whispers isn’t calling those shots. The Durmand Priory is run by an Asura, and the Vigil seems to be run by a Charr. We all have our little crosses to bear, and no one race has a distinct claim to anything outside of what they control now. I don’t see a single-race option as viable. As you said, this is how alliances fall apart.

In my experience, the Commander is two humans, two charr, two sylvari, an asura, and a norn. I don’t think one person’s PC is going to have much influence over Orr’s fate. :P

If ArenaNet decides to acknowledge the wishes of PCs at all, it’s likely to be a vote like the one a couple of months ago.

So let’s look at the NPCs. Trahearne is, indeed, a sylvari – but he’s also the foremost scholar of Orr, and thus knows of the importance of Orr to humans. Humans are the sylvari’s oldest friends (the sylvari Lore Special interview on TowerTalk states that after their disastrous first contact with asura, humans were the first race the sylvari had a positive first contact with). In the Light in the Darkness story step, Trahearne seems to be saddened by Orr’s destruction, and not just because it left the door open to Zhaitan. Now, I can’t talk for Trahearne with certainty, but my gut feeling is that he wouldn’t be violently opposed to a reinstated kingdom of Orr.

The Vigil is indeed lead by a charr, but Almorra’s isn’t interested in politics except where it applies towards fighting the dragons. As long as the future government of Orr remains benevolent to its people as well as committed to multiracial cooperation and the fight against the dragons, I don’t think the Vigil as an organisation cares about what form that government takes.

The Priory, incidentally, started as a human organisation, but I grant that it does seem to have put aside those roots, where I suspect the OoW hasn’t. Again, though, the Priory as an organisation doesn’t seem to care much about politics, just that they are allowed to study and preserve Orr’s history. If anything, they may also favour a return to human rule, on the basis that humans are much more likely to value the preservation of Orr’s heritage.

But at the bottom lone, both of the other orders are likely to defer to the Order of Whispers on this, since politics is the OoW’s field while it really isn’t for the other two. And I wouldn’t put it past the Order of Whispers to have some branch of Doric’s line that they’ve been grooming for the opportunity hidden away somewhere. (Although whether they choose to do that is another question.)

Dustfinger.9510:

I disagree. Museums would be very boring places if this was the norm. I’d leave it in the hands of whatever coalitions actually reclaimed it. Considering it was them who did the work. And considering that the items will be treated with dignity since many of those species are represented within the coalitions.

And there are many places in the world that are still resentful of their cultural treasures having been taken to (mostly) Western Europe during the days of colonialism. The Elgin Marbles, for instance, have been a reoccurring controversy pretty much since Greece gained it’s independence from the Ottoman Empire.

That said, the more portable artifacts are going to go where the Priory decides to take them regardless. It’s the long-term future of the land and structures that’s in question.

Dustfinger.9510:

The land will likely be dominated by the ones who actually find it important to be there. not because some nations feels they have this strong a claim or that. IMO, mostly humans for the ones who maintain their religious views, some norn and charr who find homesteading in the dangerous land rewarding, sylvari who travel there and stay due to curiosity and wyld hunt.

This, I can pretty much agree with. My position all along has been that if we don’t see a reinstatement of the human kingdom of Orr (independently or as a unified crown due to Jennah being the closest heir), and if we don’t see someone else making a claim, than it’ll likely be a de facto human state due to human interest in settling there being much higher than anyone else’s.

This goes doubly if settlers from Elona, Cantha, and any other human realms that might be out there get in on the action.

Alterations I would make, though, is that I don’t see much reason for norn or charr to settle in Orr. Norn because a pacified Orr would have a poor climate for norn and nothing to hunt, and charr because beyond establishing a port, any charr in Orr could probably better serve the Legions somewhere else.

However, I would note that you’ve missed the minor races in there. Quaggans get along well with humans, a strong nation in Orr would probably be a major refuge for them. I could also see the possibility of hylek moving into some of the wetland areas of Orr.

(And the answer is… Three!)

Only addendum I’d make to your post is that Norn while they might not have much to hunt, aren’t only hunters. many are adventuters, pirates, body guards, etc. Chasing after various legends. So there would be various reasons for norn to be in warmer climates in the midst of various races where there is sure to ba a lot of activity.

And we see more charr leaving their traditional way of life to strike out on their own. A budding kingdom only provides more opportunity to do that. Plus, political and social climate may well give the charr nations proper, incentive to maintain a presence for any number of reasons. even if just to keep an eye out for new opportunities that would help them against conflicts in their own lands.

Dustfinger.9510:

I think it works pretty well since even though a heritage is established, it is in a free for all zone. Which mirrors Orr. So the international law that not everyone has actually agreed upon is mirrors the fact that there is no higher law to say that any one nation has more right than another. Or that just because someone can claim some distant heritage, they have any more entitlement.

edit: and the ones that have agreed upon international law have really just come to terms with the fact that no one has any real jurisdiction beyond the ones that actually possess the items. Which is an issue that bears strong ties to this thread.

What your thinking of is maritime law that has crimes (like piracy) that can be prosecuted by the members of the international maritime commission. But that tends to cover things that would be categorized as criminal acts. And only really covers things that would be classified as civil disputes, when it deals with immediate ownership. Not distant ownership.

I’m sorry but comparing salvaging a sunken ship to returning the original home lands of an entire race aren’t equal. Salvaging laws have, for the most part, been agreed upon but the worlds governments to settle disputes before they happened. With countries in our world an agreed 12 mile radius or so into the waters is where their borders end making anything past that point, salvage-wise, fair game to those individuals that do that.

Orr is not being salvaged, in a sense it was salvaged by Zhitan and is being rescued/reclaimed by the Pact. Regardless of what Anet has the Pact decide to do the ‘morally right’ choice would be return it to the Humans, again those that can verify Orrian decent > Kytan’s even though they all came from Orr to start with. Yes it would be the ‘right’ thing to do by giving it back to Humans. Would it be the best thing to do? Who knows other than Anet.

Mist.6217:

I’m sorry but comparing salvaging a sunken ship to returning the original home lands of an entire race aren’t equal. Salvaging laws have, for the most part, been agreed upon but the worlds governments to settle disputes before they happened. With countries in our world an agreed 12 mile radius or so into the waters is where their borders end making anything past that point, salvage-wise, fair game to those individuals that do that.

Orr is not being salvaged, in a sense it was salvaged by Zhitan and is being rescued/reclaimed by the Pact. Regardless of what Anet has the Pact decide to do the ‘morally right’ choice would be return it to the Humans, again those that can verify Orrian decent > Kytan’s even though they all came from Orr to start with. Yes it would be the ‘right’ thing to do by giving it back to Humans. Would it be the best thing to do? Who knows other than Anet.

“Orr is not being salvaged”

“is being rescued/reclaimed”

O.o

That’s true, but either way I’d expect the norn and charr to be on the edges. With the assumption of a pacified Orr, the main interest for adventuring norn would be the ports (as a launching point to go further out) and the Scavenger’s Causeway as a means of getting to the Crystal Desert. Although there may be some wilderness regions as well, with the Risen removed I suspect it’s going to be even longer until Orr itself becomes suitable for big game hunting. Indiana Jones-style delving, perhaps, but that’s probably going to be taken over by the Priory.

Charr looking to come out from under the thumbs of the Legions are a possibility, but I expect they’d be a numerically insignificant minority like the non-charr living in the Black Citadel. The main charr presence, I would expect, would be the maintenance of a charr harbour (that’s something I see as pretty much a given, short of another charr-human war breaking out) – that will probably give them enough of a presence for most other activities the Legions may want to undertake in Orr short of trying to take over the place, without other races questioning their motives for being there.

On that note, one other thing I was going to comment on, although it’s going off on a tangent, is Narcemus’ comment about acts of brutal savagery on both sides of the human/charr conflict. It’s something I’ve commented on a few times that humans and charr have more in common than either are willing to admit – it’s just that those similarities (particularly a stubborn reluctance to admit defeat however bad it looks) are exactly what’s been keeping them locked in combat for centuries. The real differences, once you look past the religion thing, is that humans are a little less militaristic (but still the second most militaristic of the playable races, by a considerable margin) and a little more willing to come to settlements with other races that don’t come at the point of a sword (although the charr have made massive advanced in that regard since GW1).

If the peace holds for a couple of generations, I could easily see the humans and charr becoming fast friends – there are already signs of close friendships forming between former enemies within a year of the ceasefire.

You compared the defeat of an Elder Dragon and conquering of it’s claimed territory to salvaging a gold coin in the ocean. Not really equal. The only way to make said comparison equal would be to state that the Dragon salvaged it from the ocean floor, which it did, and the Pact was reclaiming/rescuing/conquering/whatever term you want from the Dragon.

Mist.6217:

You compared the defeat of an Elder Dragon and conquering of it’s claimed territory to salvaging a gold coin in the ocean. Not really equal. The only way to make said comparison equal would be to state that the Dragon salvaged it from the ocean floor, which it did, and the Pact was reclaiming/rescuing/conquering/whatever term you want from the Dragon.

In which case, Spain still wouldn’t get the gold. And neither would random Mexicans and Puerto Ricans. No matter how you slice it, it belongs to those who took the risks to get it back. Not to those who can make some long-past, distant ancestral ties to it.

@ draxynnic: absolutely. Like I said, that would be the only addendum i’d make to your previous post. the budding nation would still be very human centric, imo.