Guild Wars 2

draxynnic.3719:

It was a seperate kingdom, yes, but it’s a place of deep historical and religious significance to humanity.

Yes, Kryta became independent of Orr… but since every norn aspires to be independent of every other norn except possibly close family in norn culture, the same argument could be made that the norn have no special claim on the Far Shiverpeaks. The asura might be more clearly the heirs of Quora Sum, since they never formally declared independence… but the philosophy of the Eternal Alchemy doesn’t seem to have the concept of a holy land, while Orr is obviously of spiritual importance to human beliefs. So it’s a bit six of one, half dozen the other. But if it was either of their homelands that had just been freed, I’d be championing them to have first refusal – and mark my words, as the place where their gods first set foot on Tyria and where they expanded into the rest of the world, if anywhere can be said to be the homeland of humanity on Tyria, it’s Orr, even if the surviving nations are had declared independence from that homeland.

On the topic of it turning out that norn are actually jotun descendants… it’s a false equivalence. Whatever may have happened in the past, there’s no connection to the jotun in the culture and religion of modern norn, while Orr remains of significance to a belief system that is still relevant to modern Tyrian humans. Even with that said, though, under those circumstances I would still say that those norn that are interested in learning about their ancient heritage have more right to jotun relics than anyone else… except the jotun themselves, should the jotun reverse their slide into barbarism and become responsible Tyrian citizens.

I think you’d be in the minority. Just look at what is being compared here. Human rights to Orr compared to Norn right to learn about their homeland (which they would already have). using the same unit of measure, (in the hypothetical equivelant situation) the Norn should have ALL rights. As it is now with the pact in charge, humans that are interested in learning about their ancient heritage have that right.

@Dustfinger: You’ve misinterpreted. I’m championing the norn getting the rights to the Far Shiverpeaks as well – which coupled with what they’ve already settled, means de facto rights over the jotun homeland regardless of whether they turn out to be descendants or not. If jotun civilisation recovers, then there might need to be negotiation over how they’ll divide the Shiverpeaks, but I regard the Far Shiverpeaks as being something that should go to the Norn just as much as Orr to humans.

With regards to jotun artifacts… We’re discussing about what’s going to happen with the land of Orr once the Durmand Priory has finished picking over everything of interest to them. Whether the artifacts are jotun artifacts, artifacts from Orr, or not, I think it’s pretty much a given that the Priory is going to end up claiming dibs regardless. That’s not the topic.

@Drakkon: As Narcemus pointed out, the charr legions couldn’t take out Ebonhawke, nor could they solve the problems in their own land – Flame Legion, ghosts, Branded, human and charr rebels, and various other creatures coming in from outside. The charr made peace with humans because they were having just as much trouble fighting their various enemies as humans are. So the “they don’t have an army” card plays equally as well to the Charr. In fact, it plays equally to everyone but the Pact, whose army is currently sitting on Orr… and who, ultimately, will probably be the ones who decide the fate of Orr. So, however many times you want to repeat that line, it doesn’t advance your argument as much as you think it does.

From the discussion I’ve seen in this thread, there are four possible fates for Orr that have come up, short of invasion by some fourth party: indefinite control by the Pact, multiracial council, human inheritance, and charr control.

Going with the silliest first: on charr control, all of the races, whatever they may think of human religion, have to acknowledge that Orr represents holy land for humanity. Conversely, if the charr have any interest at all in Orr’s history, it’s that they want to destroy it. Saying that giving Orr to the charr would be like giving Angkor Wat or the Vatican to the Taliban… right after they’d demolished the Buddha statues… might be exaggerating the case slightly. But it would definitely be a step in a similar direction. You’re taking a place regarded as holy by one culture and giving it to another that at best doesn’t care and at worst will take the opportunity to destroy it. I’d also have to ask the charr fanatics if they’d think it reasonable if, hypothetically, if Kralkatorrik had stayed in the location where it had been sleeping and claimed the charr lands north of Ascalon as its territory, and then been slain by a multiracial coalition, whether the charr should be denied regaining control of their homeland in exchange for handing it to humanity, or even a multiracial administration?

Indefinite control by the Pact has the issue that none of the Pact members are empire builders. The Durmand Priory and the Vigil only care for politics as it impacts on their greater goals, and the Order of Whispers would rather be the power behind the throne. While Orr remains purely a military occupation, then it will remain a Pact administration, but once civilian settlers start to arrive, they’re going to want to turn it over to a civilian administration.

So that leaves multiracial administration versus explicit human rule. And the former, as I’ve explained before, I would expect to quickly default to human-dominated. People have already commented on how half of the Captain’s Council in Lion’s Arch is human – Orr is a location where I’d expect humans to have much more incentive to settle than anywhere else (whatever list of reasons you might have for other races to want to settle there, humans will have those same reasons plus religion). With humans being the largest portion of the population, any reasonably representative form of government is likely to have humans as the most represented race. This goes doubly if Cantha and/or Elona are opened up, providing an additional source of human colonists… or refugees.

Finally, I think something that everyone is forgetting is that the Order that’s likely to care most about the political fate of Orr is the Order of Whispers… and the Order was ultimately a human-founded organisation, founded to maintain human interests. Yes, it’s expanded to other races… but the Master of Whispers that made that decision probably did so on the basis that doing so ultimately allowed the Order to better safeguard humanity, even if the other races were, naturally enough, added to the mandate. It’s probably telling that the Master of Whispers is still human, and the Order seems to maintain a higher proportion of humans in its leadership than the other races.

So… when you get down to it, the organisation that is ultimately likely to decide Orr’s fate is one that was created to safeguard human interests, and one that almost certainly still cares about cultural value of Orr to humanity. Maybe they’ll produce an heir to the Orrian throne. Maybe they’ll decide another form of government more palatable. But the broad assumption some of the posters in this thread seem to have been making that the orders are indifferent to Orr being part of the heritage of humanity is not one that necessarily applies. Unfortunately, we don’t have the ability ingame to ask the Master of Whispers what the Master’s thought is on the matter, but given the Order’s history, it’s reasonable to presume that they’re at least going to take the cultural significance of Orr into account. If not because they still favour humanity, then because they know of the potential unrest that could be caused by more pious humans if they don’t.

Finally, this is going into wild speculation, but do we know that Reza is completely gone? What about the possibility of Orrian undead being cleansed by the Forgotten ritual? Actual Orrians, freed from Zhaitan’s influence, may have something to say about Orr’s fate… and they’d probably prefer that Orr was resettled by people who shared their religion.

draxynnic.3719:

@Drakkon: As Narcemus pointed out, the charr legions couldn’t take out Ebonhawke

This is slightly offtopic, but from military PoV, with current charr technology, Ebonhawke is not hard target anymore, at least if it not get upgrades asap.
Begin siege, bomb Asura gates from air with new air vehicles, breach walls with high-caliber artillery, start assault under heavy artillery support and tanks/APC to cover troops. I don’t think that Ebonhawke will stand more than few weeks under such siege. And if charr military engineers will invent napalm bombs/artillery-mortar shells, fight will be over even sooner.

While it’s subtle, there is a distinction to be made between Pact technology and charr technology. Trahearne explicitly says in a personal story step that the airships are a mix of technology from multiple races, including human. I’m told a similar comment is made about the choppers in a dynamic event, but I’ve never seen it myself, so either someone misremembered or it’s one of those events that pretty much never succeeds. Either way, stuff that the Pact deployed through combining the technology of multiple races is not necessarily stuff that the charr would have been able to deploy on their own any time soon (apart from the Iron Barracuda).

That said, it is reasonably clear that the charr getting an air force was only a matter of time, and that without countermeasures, that would mean that Ebonhawke would fall as soon as the charr got to a good bombing run. I am inclined to think that it’s possible further magical developments may have lead to such countermeasures, but that’s hardly certain.

What is relevant is that the charr weren’t able to force a military solution (in fact, reading between the lines in Sea of Sorrows suggests they may actually have been pushed back from the walls of Ebonhawke a few times) before they became so hard pressed by other problems that they had to come to the negotiating table to reduce their number of enemies. The charr-human truce came about because both sides had so many enemies they needed to make peace with one of them. Thus, Drakkon’s claims that humans don’t have the ability to expand while charr do are simply wrong – both Kryta and the High Legions are equally poorly placed to expand. The problems are different, and the charr do currently have more resources to throw at problems… but they’ve also got more problems to consume those resources (Flame Legion/Molten Alliance, ghosts, ogres, the Brand…)

Another thing that renders the “who has the military strength to do it” argument invalid is that it could be decades before Orr is habitable enough for the question to come up. In that time, Kryta may have pushed back its enemies and be looking to expand, or for all we know, the hylek could have become the military superpower of Tyria. We can’t assume that current military conditions will still hold when Orr is again habitable, but we can consider who can be regarded as having a right to the land due to cultural and historical ties. And it’s clearly humans, of the races, that have the strongest cultural and historical ties to the land.

Drakkon.4782:

That’s because you’re a lore purist. Those are the boring people at parties who kill conversations by being experts on whatever topic people are talking about.

News Flash: Lore changes. You aren’t the final arbiter of fact. So if we want to discuss hypotheticals, we can. However, many of them have already been discussed, so we don’t have to rehash them. Lighten up. There are only two lore-bunnies I care about here on this forum, and that Dustfinger, whom I do not always agree with but I do respect… ish, and Konig, who is really just god of all lore for most purposes.

If you’re not having fun with the discussion, stop reading it. Doctor, doctor, it hurts when I do this. Well, don’t do that. Duh.

Nah, I’m not some of those lore purist or whatever, I’m just trying to point out that you should consider all, even if that could hurt your point. Actually, why not?
I could say palawa joko’s minions are already building steampunk railroad to orr, but that would be silly. Fun, but silly, because we know nothing about what the hell our undead friend does right now. We know what charr do right now though. Struggling in their own internal problems, like branded, separatists, renegades, flame legion, ghosts, ogres and one giant magical wasteland people call ascalon. It would be long time before they will even consider expansion further. And they will have to deal with dredge first to reach Orr.

Because I’m not the kind of person who tries to sweep any evidence against my position under the carpet:

If the charr were to make a bid for Orr, they probably wouldn’t do it through the mountains. They’ve shown they can establish a port on the Sea of Elon before – while Sea of Sorrows implies the port that the Havoc was launched from was destroyed, having established one once I’d be surprised if they couldn’t establish one again. For pretty much anyone except possibly the hylek to make a claim on Orr, the most logical arrangement would be for the supply lines to be by sea or asura gate, not overland.

Now, I don’t think they would, because they’d be setting themselves up to make Orr a rallying point for stirring up anti-charr sentiment just like Jerusalem has been a rallying point for… well, whichever religion that doesn’t have it to demonise whichever religion does. But if they were to do so, they could do so via the Sea of Elon.

Winds.3087:

We know what charr do right now though. Struggling in their own internal problems, like branded, separatists, renegades, flame legion, ghosts, ogres and one giant magical wasteland people call ascalon. It would be long time before they will even consider expansion further. And they will have to deal with dredge first to reach Orr.

Btw it’s rarely mentioned, but majority of all those problems is not charr problems, it’s Iron Legion problems. Blood and Ash lands are unexplorable now, but i don’t think that they have problems with Separatists/ghosts/Branded.

draxynnic.3719:

@Dustfinger: You’ve misinterpreted. I’m championing the norn getting the rights to the Far Shiverpeaks as well – which coupled with what they’ve already settled, means de facto rights over the jotun homeland regardless of whether they turn out to be descendants or not. If jotun civilisation recovers, then there might need to be negotiation over how they’ll divide the Shiverpeaks, but I regard the Far Shiverpeaks as being something that should go to the Norn just as much as Orr to humans.

With regards to jotun artifacts… We’re discussing about what’s going to happen with the land of Orr once the Durmand Priory has finished picking over everything of interest to them. Whether the artifacts are jotun artifacts, artifacts from Orr, or not, I think it’s pretty much a given that the Priory is going to end up claiming dibs regardless. That’s not the topic.

While I feel you would be in the minority for that position, you are right that I did misinterpret your point there. So I don’t disagree with you for using a different ruler, since you don’t appear to be. (which was my main concern in this thread)

A large part of my point is that we should be using the same ruler. All those asura and norn and charr fans that think they should be getting a finger in the pie? Imagine how you and the race you support would feel if it was Quora Sum or the Far Shiverpeaks or the hypothetical situation of Kralkatorrik having set up shop in the Blood Legion homelands rather than flying south to the Crystal Desert. You recover the homeland of an allied culture from an enemy, then as soon as it’s practical you catting well give it back to them. It doesn’t matter if they do or do not have fur, big ears, or whatever.

Now, I’m sure someone’s going to read this and wind up the “but Kryta was independent of Orr” argument. Sophistry. Human’s human, now more than ever. It’s forgetting that that’s caused most of humanity’s woes… and, with the appropriate substitution, the charr as well. Really, the two have more in common than either would be comfortable admitting.

Rednik.3809:

Winds.3087:

We know what charr do right now though. Struggling in their own internal problems, like branded, separatists, renegades, flame legion, ghosts, ogres and one giant magical wasteland people call ascalon. It would be long time before they will even consider expansion further. And they will have to deal with dredge first to reach Orr.

Btw it’s rarely mentioned, but majority of all those problems is not charr problems, it’s Iron Legion problems. Blood and Ash lands are unexplorable now, but i don’t think that they have problems with Separatists/ghosts/Branded.

True enough, but that on the other hand those legions, while having made a significant contribution to the charr forces in Ascalon, haven’t swept in with enough force to sweep away all opposition to the charr in Ascalon. The strength of Blood and Ash forces in Ascalon shows that the three allied legions aren’t shy about helping each other out, so one way or another the logical conclusion is that either Blood and Ash have their own problems that we’re not seeing, or they’ve already thrown their full might into Ascalon* and what we see is the result of that. Either way, the charr don’t have the spare capacity for foreign conquests any more than Kryta does.

*I have a suspicion that, when all is said and done, Iron is probably the most important of the legions, and not just because the explorable parts of charr territory are Iron Legion’s. It’s the Iron Legion that’s initiated the industrial revolution that makes the charr so formidable now – while Blood and Ash have adopted that technology, it’s Iron that’s formed the backbone.

kryta has its own land orr is not a part of it.
you mention charr but there are 4 nations in charr sociaty where flame legion land is mostly conquered by the other legions now but that does not change that if the land of the flame legion where helped to be taken back from the pact or other nations they should have a saying in how the land is used

so Humans have will most likely get the chance to learn about there roots in orr but its not a given that they get to claim the land for humanety in any way.

but in my oppinion it all comes down to how the pact handles it.
there are 2 ways i can think off eighter the pacted pacts up and jsut leaves when its done and then it will be a first come firsted served thing.
or the pact can give ownership of orr to a race/races but then it will be trehears decision of who gets it and from the share amount of influence the pale tree has over him the pale tree will msot likely be a key factoer in who gets it if the pacted gives ownership to someone

Narcemus.1348:

And the Charr Legions couldn’t take out a simple human fortification in the south of their kingdom :P
What we see in the story is in the beginning the centaurs having the upper hand and eventually the seraph pushing the centaurs back to the very edge. And by your own logic I will have to say that all 3 charr legions couldn’t take care of their own problem (Flame Legion) without help from the Pact. So charr can be just as big of wimps when it comes to this kind of stuff.

Ok, so we’re going ot point to Ebonhawke as an example of Charr inefficiency? Ok, we’ll bite into your lacklorester bait. The Charr didn’t destroy Ebonhawke with their overwhelming might because they didn’t see the value in genocide. They wanted the land and the people, not just the land. Ebonhawke’s resolve refused to bow to Charr domination, and the Charr lacked the political will to destroy them utterly, despite having more than enough forces deployed in the area to crush the petty kingdom to rubble. That’s why Jennah stepped in an negotiated the cease fire, and then the peace treaty. Both sides acknowledge that neither would have benefited greatly from a prolonged conflict, and even in winning, they would have had less of a victory than they do with the peace treaty, where they can move past the fighting that has marked their entire existence and begin fighting their common enemies together.

Try playing the game and experiencing the content before you open up fail arguments like this. This was explained in the game while you’re doing the hearts in Ebonhawke itself. There is no reason why you don’t know this unless you haven’t been there. Every NPC with a “[F] Talk” option tells you how much they hate the war and how tired they are of the fighting (except the quest NPCs, but they’re not supposed to). They express hope that the two sides can work together as hard as they fought one another. But one thing that the Charr always say is that they know they have the military might to destroy Ebonhawke. There’s just something about how passionately the humans fight that the Charr respect and they don’t want to crush that spirit because it could be useful in their own fights. It’s just those kitten humans resist being brought under the banners of the Legions. Sad.

The Charr couldn’t take Ebonhawke for 250 years due to two main reasons. First, there is the Asura gate:

“The thing that lets Ebonhawke survive isn’t the wall or the Vanguard. It’s the Asura gate. Without that, the Charr would have been able to starve the humans out of here long ago. With it, the humans have managed a record-breaking stand against a truly determined foe.” GoA, page 180

Second, there is the skill of the Vanguard to prevent the Charr siege engines from reaching the walls:

“The trick is getting those machines into the right places. The Vanguard has gotten extremely good at keeping the Charr from reaching those places.” GoA, page 181

It made the Charr believe that Ebonhawke wasn’t worth the effort, and they withdraw, except Iron Legion, who went on testing weapons against Ebonhawke:

“Many Charr believe that Ebonhawke is impregnable, and taking it a waste of effort better spend elsewhere. The strongest dissenters are among the Iron Legion.” GoA, page 180-181

Assuming the Charr could have taken Ebonhawke if they only wanted to is wishful thinking. The closest they got was shortly before the rise of Kralkatorrik. I am too lazy to look for the appropriate quote from Edge of Destiny.

Bottom line is, the Charr tried for 250 years and didn’t take it because they couldn’t, not because they wouldn’t.

Frosch.7809:

Second, there is the skill of the Vanguard to prevent the Charr siege engines from reaching the walls:
“The trick is getting those machines into the right places. The Vanguard has gotten extremely good at keeping the Charr from reaching those places.” GoA, page 181
It made the Charr believe that Ebonhawke wasn’t worth the effort, and they withdraw, except Iron Legion, who went on testing weapons against Ebonhawke:
“Many Charr believe that Ebonhawke is impregnable, and taking it a waste of effort better spend elsewhere. The strongest dissenters are among the Iron Legion.” GoA, page 180-181
Assuming the Charr could have taken Ebonhawke if they only wanted to is wishful thinking. The closest they got was shortly before the rise of Kralkatorrik. I am too lazy to look for the appropriate quote from Edge of Destiny.
Bottom line is, the Charr tried for 250 years and didn’t take it because they couldn’t, not because they wouldn’t.

Amazing that you draw that conclusion because the quotes you provided support my position just as easily.

The Iron Legion believes the walls of not impregnable, and remain behind to test new siege technology to try and bring them down. The other Legions believe that the city isn’t worth the effort, so they won’t commit to killing it off. Where am I wrong in saying that they lack the political will to commit genocide and that they, if they focused their efforts on the task, COULDN’T defeat the Ebonhawke easily? They just don’t think it’s worth the effort. The Magical McGuffin in the city sneaking them in food behind the backs of the Charr is the only thing that has stood between the Charr and total victory. Starving out a city is an effective way to deter the populous. Honestly, everything you quoted supports my position just as easily as yours. I don’t see your point.

Drakkon.4782:

…the Charr lacked the political will to destroy them utterly, despite having more than enough forces deployed in the area to crush the petty kingdom to rubble.

That’s your point: the Charr could have taken Ebonhawke if they only wanted to.

Reality is, they didn’t because they couldn’t. End of discussion.

Frosch.7809:

Drakkon.4782:

…the Charr lacked the political will to destroy them utterly, despite having more than enough forces deployed in the area to crush the petty kingdom to rubble.

That’s your point: the Charr could have taken Ebonhawke if they only wanted to.
Reality is, they didn’t because they couldn’t. End of discussion.

Not even by your own evidence. The other Legions walked away from the fight, believing the battle wasn’t going to be worth the reward. They didn’t walk away from Ebonhawke because they didn’t think they could win. They walked away because they didn’t think winning would justify the costs. They lacked the political will to fight that battle,and went elsewhere to better rewards. But for Iron, the rewards were, until recently, worth it because they got better and better siege engines out of the fight. The Elder Dragons have just become more important.

And anyone who uses “/thread” or “End of Discussion” to try and bully their way out of an argument is saying they know they’ve lost. And thank you for your concession.

Drakkon.4782:

Ok, so we’re going ot point to Ebonhawke as an example of Charr inefficiency? Ok, we’ll bite into your lacklorester bait. The Charr didn’t destroy Ebonhawke with their overwhelming might because they didn’t see the value in genocide. They wanted the land and the people, not just the land. Ebonhawke’s resolve refused to bow to Charr domination, and the Charr lacked the political will to destroy them utterly, despite having more than enough forces deployed in the area to crush the petty kingdom to rubble. That’s why Jennah stepped in an negotiated the cease fire, and then the peace treaty. Both sides acknowledge that neither would have benefited greatly from a prolonged conflict, and even in winning, they would have had less of a victory than they do with the peace treaty, where they can move past the fighting that has marked their entire existence and begin fighting their common enemies together.

Try playing the game and experiencing the content before you open up fail arguments like this. This was explained in the game while you’re doing the hearts in Ebonhawke itself. There is no reason why you don’t know this unless you haven’t been there. Every NPC with a “[F] Talk” option tells you how much they hate the war and how tired they are of the fighting (except the quest NPCs, but they’re not supposed to). They express hope that the two sides can work together as hard as they fought one another. But one thing that the Charr always say is that they know they have the military might to destroy Ebonhawke. There’s just something about how passionately the humans fight that the Charr respect and they don’t want to crush that spirit because it could be useful in their own fights. It’s just those kitten humans resist being brought under the banners of the Legions. Sad.

Really? Because in my experience in GW1 and GW2 they made multiple attempts at genocide. Not even just killing the humans that took over their homelands but also killing the humans in their own homelands to make sure the threat never returned. Perhaps you should read up more on your own lore. The Charr would have squashed Ebonhawke like a bug and exterminated all the humans if they had a chance, but they couldn’t. They never had interest in ruling over humans.

BTW: The asura gate isn’t the only way that Ebonhawke has survived. According to Destiny’s Edge the current asura gate wasn’t built until the events at the end of the book, which is 5 years before the game starts. There was a previous gate that went disused, and somehow they were able to get caravans of supplies through the mountains an into the city without too much charr interruptions.

Narcemus.1348:

Really? Because in my experience in GW1 and GW2 they made multiple attempts at genocide. Not even just killing the humans that took over their homelands but also killing the humans in their own homelands to make sure the threat never returned. Perhaps you should read up more on your own lore. The Charr would have squashed Ebonhawke like a bug and exterminated all the humans if they had a chance, but they couldn’t. They never had interest in ruling over humans.

GW1, expected. The Flame Legion aren’t nice people. They did horrible things to their own people. Humans are vermin to be exterminated. One can hardly expect someone to be civil to the kittenroaches.

GW2, I doubt any of the three Legions have been horrible to races we care about. Centaurs are fine to kill off. We’re not supposed to like them.

However, to say that they couldn’t kill off the humans of Ebonhawke flies in the face of the established lore, the in-game experiences, and even the books. You cannot say that they couldn’t do something when they never tried. 2 Legions walked away from the fight, and the third stayed to conduct weapons testing on them. Hardly conclusive proof that they couldn’t win. You’re reaching for conclusions that aren’t in arm’s reach.

BTW: The asura gate isn’t the only way that Ebonhawke has survived. According to Destiny’s Edge the current asura gate wasn’t built until the events at the end of the book, which is 5 years before the game starts. There was a previous gate that went disused, and somehow they were able to get caravans of supplies through the mountains an into the city without too much charr interruptions.

I wasn’t the one who brought up the gate. My argument holds with or without it.

The point on the asura gate wasn’t towards you, but just a general comment which is why I had it separately.

Point is. The Legions walked away because they couldn’t do it. Their losses there were too heavy. Everytime they created new siege technology the humans somehow always outsmarted them and made sure that new technology never got where it needed it be in order to be effective. 250 years of siege is a long span of failure for the charr. Even if the last 100 have just been Iron Legion testing grounds, that was roughly 150 years of charr failure to take what they saw as rightfully theirs.

And I do notice that you didn’t bring into light the other stuff I mentioned. How the High Legions couldn’t take out the Flame Legion alone without the help of the Pact. That right there, the charr actually asking for help (Since it was Rytlock that told the Pact about the Flame Legion’s actions) that proves their dire situation. No less dire that the situation humanity is in. At least humanity took care of it’s own problem without relying on others to mop up the mess.

Humanity is currently receiving help with their civil problems just like the charr are.

Korsbaek.9803:

kryta has its own land orr is not a part of it.

Like I said: Sophistry.

It was a human nation, and not just any human nation, it’s the ruins of their holy city and the one place on the world of Tyria they can really say is their homeland rather than having being taken from someone else who wants it back. No other race has even close to that degree of a claim, and I’d be surprised if either of Trahearne or the Order of Whispers was aware of that.

Besides, “human” does not mean “absorbed into Kryta”.

Drakkon.4782:

But one thing that the Charr always say is that they know they have the military might to destroy Ebonhawke.

Your mistake is to take their word at face value. There’s this little thing called ‘bravado’ – and part of showing bravado is saying that you’re only backing down from something because you choose to, even when deep down you know you couldn’t pull it off.

Even in Ghosts of Ascalon, there’s a moment where the charr almost got an opportunity at a weak point in Ebonhawke’s defenses… and it’s quite clear that they intended to seize that opportunity and destroy the citadel if they could. The charr accepted peace because when push came to shove, they had to admit that they weren’t going to get the military victory they really wanted, at least not in time to allow them to deal with their other problems.

As for wanting the humans of Ascalon: At the risk of making a possibly controversial historical reference, the charr wanted them the way World War 2 Japan wanted POWs – to be worked to death or to be killed for the amusement of their captors. You can claim “oh, but that was the Flame Legion” – but before the rebellion there were Shamans of all legions and hatred of humanity was even more the charr religion than the Titans. In fact, it was the promise of enacting a horrible revenge on humanity that allowed lead the charr to (mostly) willingly place themselves under the shamans and titans to begin with. Various events between the Searing and the initiation of the ceasefire have caused the charr to mellow in that attitude, but the war was never about absorbing humans into the Legions – the charr wanted the humans in Ascalon gone, preferably by means of being dead.

Oh, and the Blood and Ash Legions never ‘walked away’. All of the legions took part in continuing the war against Ebonhawke, and there are representatives of all the legions in the Renegedes (and Bangar, the imperator of the Blood Legion, has been noted as maintaining a hatred for humanity). It’s just that whatever happens with Ebonhawke is more personal for Iron because it’s in Iron territory – any compromises that are made are compromises that have to be made by Iron. That’s the reason why it was Iron that was most determined to press the siege – it’s not that the other legions had left, it’s that Iron simply had the most to lose by giving up.

draxynnic.3719:

Korsbaek.9803:

kryta has its own land orr is not a part of it.

Like I said: Sophistry.

It was a human nation, and not just any human nation, it’s the ruins of their holy city and the one place on the world of Tyria they can really say is their homeland rather than having being taken from someone else who wants it back. No other race has even close to that degree of a claim, and I’d be surprised if either of Trahearne or the Order of Whispers was aware of that.

Besides, “human” does not mean “absorbed into Kryta”.

that is true.
but given thakittens under pact juristiction it will be decided by the leader of the pact, who gets orr and given the leader is trehearn a first born sylvary and that trehearn listen so much to the pale tree as most sylvary does. the pale tree is defendly going to have a huge influence in who gets orr then other then if the pact abandonse it

so its possible to say that sylvary will make the claim on orr if they find a new seed or something else to use orr to.
humans is also possible if they get there current problems under control
charr is also possible given that the ghosts of ascelon is mostly dealt with now they have spare man power

I don’t think the Pact works like that. They are lead by Trahearne as “The Pact” to achieve common goals but they are still independent organizations with their own priorities. So decisions will probably be split up and made depending on the goals and areas of expertise of each individual organization.

There’s still a place for the Pact, there’s still a place for military forces. …… basically seeing the Durmand Priory for example coming in and trying to research that area.

the Pact and the various Orders are the people who have sort of the gateway of control about how those things are going to filter back.

http://www.guildmag.com/magazine/issue9/interview.htm

To be honest, I think the influence of Trahearne and the Pale Tree only strengthens my position.

As the foremost modern scholar of Orr, Trahearne knows about Orr’s importance to humanity more than any non-human, and probably better than many humans when push comes to shove. Sylvari and humans also get along well – there’s an interview – I think it was the Wartower sylvari interview – where it’s mentioned that humans were the first race sylvari established friendly relations with. The Pale Tree’s ambassador to DR is a firstborn, and some ambient discussions around Kryta indicate that citizenry have no qualms about having sylvari in their nation. Thus, I’m pretty sure that the Pale Tree will recognise human interests in expressing her own opinion.

(Incidentally, I’m also inclined to think that sylvari would be the second largest population of a reconstituted Orr, if nothing else due to their interest in making sure the rehabilitation of the land succeeds. I also don’t think humans would have a problem with that, unless Orr ends up occupied by Cantha under Usoku 2.0.).

draxynnic.3719:

To be honest, I think the influence of Trahearne and the Pale Tree only strengthens my position.

As the foremost modern scholar of Orr, Trahearne knows about Orr’s importance to humanity more than any non-human, and probably better than many humans when push comes to shove. Sylvari and humans also get along well – there’s an interview – I think it was the Wartower sylvari interview – where it’s mentioned that humans were the first race sylvari established friendly relations with. The Pale Tree’s ambassador to DR is a firstborn, and some ambient discussions around Kryta indicate that citizenry have no qualms about having sylvari in their nation. Thus, I’m pretty sure that the Pale Tree will recognise human interests in expressing her own opinion.

(Incidentally, I’m also inclined to think that sylvari would be the second largest population of a reconstituted Orr, if nothing else due to their interest in making sure the rehabilitation of the land succeeds. I also don’t think humans would have a problem with that, unless Orr ends up occupied by Cantha under Usoku 2.0.).

even as the foremost scholer of orr does not mean he will give to to humans in any way at all and the pale tree will not give it to humans just because it used to be human land, if the pale tree will push for giving it to humans then she will give reasons that will make it benefit the overall of the 5 races.

given the way the orders have agreed to banner under him i will also belive that he will have a saying what happens to the land after.

Dustfinger.9510:

Humanity is currently receiving help with their civil problems just like the charr are.

I have to point out, Humanity is receiving help from random groups of adventurers going around and doing good. Charr required the help of one of the world’s largest military organizations in order to take down their major rival. There is a difference.

It means he knows of Orr’s history and importance and is less likely to disregard it than Joe Random Forumgoer.

On what will benefit the five races overall:

1) Orr is open for other races to use.

2) Humans aren’t royally kittened off because their holy land has been parceled off to nonbelievers.

The best way to guarantee these points? Give it back to humans while humans are still grateful to other races for their contribution to freeing it, rather than allowing resentment to build up.

PS As an adjutant to Narcemus’ point – given what we’ve been told of population dynamics, the largest contingent of those random adventurers are human anyway. Sure, that data is probably not actually what ArenaNet is basing the lore on – but on the other hand, lorewise the various nations and organisations probably aren’t actually as reliant on Joe Random Adventurer as we’d think from playing the game.

The clear answer to who gets Orr is the Skriit, obviously. It took an entire army of Sylvari, Asura, Charr, Humans, and Norn. However, the Skriit only need Chhk the Windmill King!

HO AND BEHOLD! THE WINDMILL KING WISHES TO FIGHT A DRAGON!

Also, you didn’t really fight a dragon. You were only bewitched by a foul Magpie.
Skriit for next playable race!

Narcemus.1348:

I have to point out, Humanity is receiving help from random groups of adventurers going around and doing good. Charr required the help of one of the world’s largest military organizations in order to take down their major rival. There is a difference.

And how much Pact forces we see in Fireheart Rise?

SinerAthin.2374:

BrunoBRS.5178:

once it’s “cured/regrown”, it will still be a desolated wasteland full of ruins, bodies, and oversized sealife.

I highly doubt that.

Ruins, yeah. They’ll remain.

But nature has a way of disposing of corpses, so they won’t be an issue.
I’m not sure what you mean by ‘Oversized sealife’ though, unless you are referring to the occasional bones.

There are giant pieces of coral sticking up everywhere. As well as shells. Huge, giant shells. Pretty sure I saw sea urchins and large barnacles glued to many stone surfaces.

And how much Pact forces we see in Fireheart Rise?

Entire north part of it assaulted by priory mad ice elementals for instance.

Rednik.3809:

Narcemus.1348:

I have to point out, Humanity is receiving help from random groups of adventurers going around and doing good. Charr required the help of one of the world’s largest military organizations in order to take down their major rival. There is a difference.

And how much Pact forces we see in Fireheart Rise?

In the northwestern corner the Pact is testing new weapons (including some prototype grenades) that can be used against the Flame Legion as well as dragon minions. There’s a Pact camp in the north leading assaults against one of the larger Flame castrums. And then again, Gaheron was killed in a Pact campaign, and it is the Pact that is waging a war on the leftover Flame forces inside the Citadel.

Thalador.4218:

In the northwestern corner the Pact is testing new weapons (including some prototype grenades) that can be used against the Flame Legion as well as dragon minions. There’s a Pact camp in the north leading assaults against one of the larger Flame castrums. And then again, Gaheron was killed in a Pact campaign, and it is the Pact that is waging a war on the leftover Flame forces inside the Citadel.

I.e. 1 camp and 1 group of troops inside CoF. While charr (only what we know atm) fighting with: Flame Legion, Branded, ghosts, Separatist, Renegades, ogre tribes, local grawl and harpies here and there… and manage to hold it together. And sending troops, specialists and equipment to the Pact ofc.
While humans fight with bandits and centaurs. Clearly equal wars.

Humans fight a unified group of enemies in the bandits and centaurs, plus within the ministry there are people getting their troops killed to make the queen look incompetent. Not only that but many of their villages are being attacked by groups of Risen and krait. It is not a perfect analogy, but when it comes to human wars vs charr wars, the charr are more unified with more enemies and the humans are less unified with less enemies, but the biggest portion of the enemies themselves are allied (which is not the case in the charr wars).

Rednik.3809:

Thalador.4218:

In the northwestern corner the Pact is testing new weapons (including some prototype grenades) that can be used against the Flame Legion as well as dragon minions. There’s a Pact camp in the north leading assaults against one of the larger Flame castrums. And then again, Gaheron was killed in a Pact campaign, and it is the Pact that is waging a war on the leftover Flame forces inside the Citadel.

I.e. 1 camp and 1 group of troops inside CoF. While charr (only what we know atm) fighting with: Flame Legion, Branded, ghosts, Separatist, Renegades, ogre tribes, local grawl and harpies here and there… and manage to hold it together. And sending troops, specialists and equipment to the Pact ofc.
While humans fight with bandits and centaurs. Clearly equal wars.

Actually, when you look at it, the Pact is responsible for the war effort on the entire western side of the zone. In the north, you have the Pact undertaking a relatively conventional military campaign. In the south, you have the Order of Whispers pushing the grawl to attack the Flame Legion.

Furthermore, when you get to the explorable mode, it’s the Pact holding down the fort – without the Pact there as an occupying force, the Flame Legion would have resurged one way or another.

On the question of Kryta – as another poster stated, Kryta’s enemies are effectively united. Krait, skritt, and others are local nuisances, but when it comes to presenting a credible threat it’s bandits and centaurs, and they’re explicitly allied in multiple zones. More significantly, though, Kryta’s problems are internal – the centaurs and bandits are to Caudecus as the Trade Federation and then the Separatists were to Palpatine. Caudecus wants the Krytan throne, in practical effect if not in fact, and he’s using the bandits and centaurs as catspaws in order to provoke a political crisis that he hopes will give him that. Bottom line is, though, he still wants Kryta for himself, and while he’s willing to damage it to get it, he’s not going to put it into a situation that he’s not confident he could “miraculously” retrieve it from once he seized power.

When you think about it, this actually means that Kryta is more likely to be able to get the spare capacity for foreign excursions in the foreseeable future than the charr, since while Kryta’s enemies gain power in unity, they all ultimately stem from the same source. If the Krytan political crisis is resolved, then its military crisis will likely also be resolved in pretty short order. In the case of the charr, though – even the death of the Flame Imperator and the seizing of his seat of power didn’t remove the Flame Legion as a significant threat, and there’s still ghosts, hostile ogres (although I think the charr are basically hoping that Ebonhawke will take over on that one), and the Brand – and unlike in Kryta, there’s no single source that, if removed, would solve all or most of their problems. Each of the enemies of the charr needs to be dealt with separately.

i think it will be a lions arch type of deal where all races and orders are allowed to live peacefully.

MunkeeBreath.9165:

i think it will be a lions arch type of deal where all races and orders are allowed to live peacefully.

i gess most will agree that with a high chance of proberbilty it will be a democracy with the races living there represented in some way or a counsil of represintetives of the races living there.

but i think we have established a rule that says what race will get orr and arguments for and agienst it, as that removes the easy way out.

It could be that steps have already been taken to secure the region for reclamation by the descendants of the original inhabitants… the sylvari!

In keeping with my ‘Pale Tree’s Master Plan’ theory, what if…

Orr was originally a lush, tropical paradise created and maintained by a ‘Primeval’ Pale Tree. Then along came the human gods, who decided they liked the place, and so, after some godly cleansing and reseeding, the Primeval Pale Tree’s paradise, the Primeval Pale Tree herself, and all her primeval children, were no more. Except for one forlorn orphan who, though sorely wounded, managed to slip away, carrying a number of seeds…

Skip ahead:

Trahearne, the Pale Tree’s favorite son, journeys to Orr and fulfills the imperative of his Wyld Hunt, planting Caladbolg (in truth, a seed) on the very spot where the human gods first set foot in Orr, beginning a new ‘cleansing’ of this troubled and long-contested land. And a new Pale Tree takes root and begins to grow.

But this new Pale Tree won’t be innocent and simple and peaceful like the Primeval Pale Tree, unable to withstand the assault of the human gods all those long, long years ago. This one will be armed with a vast array of knowledge and skills acquired from decades of sylvari interaction with fleshlings. This one, for example, knows how to fight an Elder Dragon…

Korsbaek.9803:

i gess most will agree that with a high chance of proberbilty it will be a democracy with the races living there represented in some way or a counsil of represintetives of the races living there.

but i think we have established a rule that says what race will get orr and arguments for and agienst it, as that removes the easy way out.

Highly Doubtful.

Is there even a single democracy in Tyria?
I’m not sure Lion’s Arch counts as it’s essentially an Oligarchy of the strongest captains. The recent event seems more like a recent trend.

Anyway it will probably likely be majority Sylvari and Human. They’re the only ones with any reason to populate Orr before it is fully cleaned up. The cleaning up bit will attract many Sylvari and there will be many humans, Orrians and Followers of the Six both, who are attracted to clean it up. Asura will show up but about in the numbers they show up elsewhere, in their isolated Krewe’s. Norn aren’t big on warm places but will probably move through in small numbers looking for challenges, same with individual Charr. I’m just not seeing a reason why Orr wouldn’t be majority Human/Sylvari by the time it is fully cleansed.

true we dont have a true democraty but heck i will dare you to find one in our world as there is no democraty in the real world to there is something called representive democraty tho(you elect some people to do the job of the population),

but to your other statment about inhabiters.
i have a hard time seeing the charr not wanting to move some people there for a just in case the peace breaks and war breaks loss agien between human and charr.
norn propberly wont move there given there nature,
sylvary will proberly move there to cleans the land as you say.
humans that still follow the gods will want to move there ofc.
asura that studies magic will proberly love to be there and studie the magic and corruption of the elder dragons.

Korsbaek.9803:

i have a hard time seeing the charr not wanting to move some people there for a just in case the peace breaks and war breaks loss agien between human and charr.

Because doing so in enough numbers to make a difference if war does break out again risks becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I expect the charr would be interested in establishing naval bases and trading ports on Orr, but not in going further inland in significant numbers unless they were determined to spite humanity.

why are they spiteing humans by also being prt of the communety? thats what i dont understand.

It’s a question of what other motives they’d have for being there.

Your suggestion of motive is as a “just in case war breaks out again”. And in that case, what? They’re going to attack the human settlements of Orr? That’s going to require a significant presence of soldiery, and having a large contingent of well-armed charr taking up residence in Orr with no clear reason for being there apart from being able to hold something over humans… is likely to be viewed as provocative.

Outside of posturing for a potential conflict with humans… the only real interest the charr are likely to have in Orr is the potential for valuable ports there. One of the other posters in this thread raised the possibility of weapons testing and development outside of the charr territories and therefor outside of potential espionage from local enemies, but if they’re willing to have such R&D happen where other races are likely to see it, there are other options.

Korsbaek.9803:

true we dont have a true democraty but heck i will dare you to find one in our world as there is no democraty in the real world to there is something called representive democraty tho(you elect some people to do the job of the population),

Smaller communities and organizations can and do work that way. It’s called direct democracy.

Korsbaek.9803:

why are they spiteing humans by also being prt of the communety? thats what i dont understand.

Because Legions placing their own military encampments and bases there for no other reason than to be there would look very suspect. The Legions practice realpolitik and they wouldn’t do something like that just to “join the ‘communety’”.

Lostwingman.5034:

Because Legions placing their own military encampments and bases there for no other reason than to be there would look very suspect. The Legions practice realpolitik and they wouldn’t do something like that just to “join the ‘communety’”.

They would if there was a tactical advantage to it (Blood), they could gain access to some ancient tech (Iron) or they felt there were secrets that could benefit/harm the Charr as a whole (Ash).

Oh, look. Motivations. Problem solved.

Drakkon.4782:

Lostwingman.5034:

Because Legions placing their own military encampments and bases there for no other reason than to be there would look very suspect. The Legions practice realpolitik and they wouldn’t do something like that just to “join the ‘communety’”.

They would if there was a tactical advantage to it (Blood), they could gain access to some ancient tech (Iron) or they felt there were secrets that could benefit/harm the Charr as a whole (Ash).

Oh, look. Motivations. Problem solved.

Tactical Advantage to…what?
That’s nothing different than what was already pointed out. The only reason for dumping a large Legion military outpost there would be….what….exactly? Pact =/= Legions so what?

Ancient Technology? Unless the Iron Legion drops their Industrial Engineer lean and opts to adopt Orrian Magic Weaponry, which is silly, there’s nothing to get. Additionally they would need nothing more than a few small outposts or enclaves which no one is saying they wouldn’t. What that wouldn’t require is large settlements to the point of being a major population on Orr.

Same with Ash, there would ofc be Ash there but only enough to have their eyes and ears plastered everywhere. I doubt the Ash typically accomplish that with a strategy of “lol lets just send tens of thousands of Ash Legion Charr in to ‘blend in’, yea, that’ll work”.

Terrible rationales, the entirely lot of them. Problems Exacerbated.

be placeing a big settelement and navel base there they will have the option to open a food and weapon supply, they have the option to build a fort so they have a secure landing in orr if they need to go to war agien with the humans,

there are alot of tactical reasons for charr to move a potion there.

and about the democraty, it will rarely work abowe 10 people and have a hard time working with 10 people.
to my knowlege there is no orginasation with any direct democracy as it will not work in the long run compared to elective democracy.

Korsbaek.9803:

be placeing a big settelement and navel base there they will have the option to open a food and weapon supply, they have the option to build a fort so they have a secure landing in orr if they need to go to war agien with the humans,

I can’t believe what I’m reading.
Weren’t you saying “oh noes! y wuld dat be spiteing humans!?!?”??
Your killing your own argument by agreeing that the only reason for the Legions to commit serious resources to Orr is as a foil to the humans.

there are alot of tactical reasons for charr to move a potion there.

Have a potion there? What?
Again, the only “tactical reasons” are reasons for fighting humans.
At most they might have a deep water port set up there some point in the future but even that is a big “whhyyyy” as long as the Pact exists or hell, any of the orders.

Korsbaek.9803:

and about the democraty, it will rarely work abowe 10 people and have a hard time working with 10 people.
to my knowlege there is no orginasation with any direct democracy as it will not work in the long run compared to elective democracy.

Maybe you should stop trying to make points.
You are absolutely terrible at it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landsgemeinde

Also a Representative Democracy is still Democracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy

Lostwingman.5034:

Korsbaek.9803:

be placeing a big settelement and navel base there they will have the option to open a food and weapon supply, they have the option to build a fort so they have a secure landing in orr if they need to go to war agien with the humans,

I can’t believe what I’m reading.
Weren’t you saying “oh noes! y wuld dat be spiteing humans!?!?”??
Your killing your own argument by agreeing that the only reason for the Legions to commit serious resources to Orr is as a foil to the humans.

there are alot of tactical reasons for charr to move a potion there.

Have a potion there? What?
Again, the only “tactical reasons” are reasons for fighting humans.
At most they might have a deep water port set up there some point in the future but even that is a big “whhyyyy” as long as the Pact exists or hell, any of the orders.

Korsbaek.9803:

and about the democraty, it will rarely work abowe 10 people and have a hard time working with 10 people.
to my knowlege there is no orginasation with any direct democracy as it will not work in the long run compared to elective democracy.

Maybe you should stop trying to make points.
You are absolutely terrible at it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landsgemeinde

Also a Representative Democracy is still Democracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy

stand corrected about that.

but that does still not change the fact that charr will benefit more from setting up ports and settelment in orr then leaving it out makeing it a stategical good possion to have for them and makeing a goverment there WITH the humans does not change the fact that they will be there in numbers and because of that they have a option of navel travel to;)
and its not only tactical smart for it to fight humans but also when fighting on the easter end of there lands haveing a safe farms and factorys are very importent in war and remember the charr is very much a war nation;)

and i have never been a talker for giving to humanity alone in any way

I doubt it will be completely habitable for several centuries, considering it was ground zero for Zhaitan and it was soaking in saltwater for quite some time. It will probably be a pilgrimage site for humans and sort of a test ground for the other races, where they experiment with dragon corruption, with the population so small that no one will really have a claim to it.