Guild Wars 2

In this thread, I attempt to finally clarify the nature of the connection between the sylvari and Mordremoth, by drawing parallels between the last Elder Dragon cycle of awakening and the current one.
See also: this thread

Whilst perusing dwarven lore earlier I made a few idle observations. The first are pretty inconsequential; I just noticed that in Guild Wars Eye of the North, the dwarves are given equal significance to the charr and the newly-introduced races of the asura and norn. And like the asura and norn, they are given the distinction of having their own theme introduced in the Eye of the North sountrack, as well as having a much more fleshed out lore in the story of that game. Had they survived the Destroyers, they probably would have been a playable race in Guild Wars 2 (or on footing with the playable races in lore terms, I don’t know how appealing this would be to players), but as we know, this is not the case – the sylvari took the place of the fifth playable race.

I got to thinking that it was interesting how just as the dwarves are transformed into creatures of earth, the newly-planted Pale Tree began to flourish in Arbor Bay, itself ready to create creatures to fight the Elder Dragons. I wondered how many other similarities you could draw between the two species, and as it turns out, it’s quite a few:

• Both are (now) made of natural materials. Dwarves are humanoid because that was how they looked before their Transformation, sylvari are humanoid because…well, reasons unknown.
• Sylvari were created by the Pale Tree in Arbor Bay, and the dwarves were forged by the Great Dwarf atop Anvil Rock, according to their creation myth. The Pale Tree links all sylvari together in their Dream of Dreams, and although we don’t know much about the post-transformation dwarves, we know that like the sylvari, they are now linked together by the collective consciousness called the Great Dwarf. (source)
• All sylvari feel a duty to fight the dragons, and some believe that the Pale Tree is Tyria’s way of responding to the threat of the dragons. Similarly, after the dwarven transformation, all dwarves now feel strongly compelled to fight the dragons.
• If you subscribe to the sylvari = dragon minions theory, then they are both capable of forming mental bonds with dragon champions (the dwarves with Glint, and the sylvari with Mordremoth) (source)
• Again, if you subscribe to the above theory, the fate of both is inextricably linked to the Elder Dragons. The dwarves lost their independence and began acting with single purpose in much the same way many believe the sylvari will.

Now, this isn’t (quite) another “sylvari = dragon minions” thread. I think something similar may be up, but with subtle (and massively important) differences. Now, before we can really get started, we need to think about a more obvious comparison for the dwarves: the Destroyers. If you cast your mind back to Eye of the North, there are many times that the story tries to cast the two opposing forces in the light of the other. The Great Dwarf and the Great Destroyer, for example, are similar in that they are exact opposites of one another (I think that when the Great Destroyer was first conceived in Guild Wars Prophecies, it was probably as some evil dwarf god). The dialogue in this cinematic says it better than I can:

Ogden Stonehealer: “Yes. Jalis Ironhammer is resolute, but the Destroyers are infinite, and they act as a single creature.”
Gwen: “That’s it. What if they ARE a single creature?”
Ogden Stonehealer: “What do you mean?”
Gwen: “The Great Dwarf’s power is connected to Jalis’s followers. What if the Great Destroyer’s mind is connected to its minions.”

And of course, as we know, Gwen turns out to be right. When the Great Destroyer is killed, the Destroyers lose coordination and the dwarves are able to pursue them back to where they came from (at least until Primordus awakens). Now I’m not saying anything as extreme as the dwarves are dragon minions – just that the magic that allowed the dwarves to defeat the minions of the dragon is very similar in nature to the magic used by the dragon itself (where have we seen that before?)

Where, and how, would the dwarves have acquired this magic? Well, we know from exploring Arah after Zhaitan’s defeat, that in the last cycle of awakening, each of the “elder races” (dwarves, mursaat, Seers, Forgotten, jotun) contributed in some way to the fight. Well, all except for the dwarves, who don’t get a path in that dungeon. What I’m saying is this: what if we’ve already seen it? The battle between the dwarves and Destroyers and subsequent Transformation of the Dwarves was foretold in the Tome of the Rubicon, a document dating back to the last rise of the Elder Dragons. Aside from the generic fantasy-handwavey prophecy stuff, how did the author(s) know that such a battle would take place?

(Incidentally, a lot of this stuff begs a comparison between the elder races and the current ones. If we’re playing that game, I’d say dwarf = sylvari (obviously), mursaat = asura (the game tries to lead us on this one, see Arah dialogue, jotun = norn, Forgotten = human (ties to the Six Gods, spread across the world), and then by elimination Seers = charr. But this is all fairly irrelevant to the main thrust of the thread).

I hypothesise that the Rite of the Great Dwarf has its origin in the last Elder Dragon rise. The dwarves’ contribution to the battle against the dragons last time was a promise, of sorts – that if the dragons ever rose again, they would use the Hammer of the Great Dwarf, a weapon infused with the magic that allows the Dragons to control their minions (and we already know this magic can be harnessed by mortals, see Snaff and the Inquest), to create a creature equal and opposite to a dragon champion – the Great Dwarf, a champion of our own. The details got fudged over time, but the gist of it remained the same: the minions of the Great Destroyer will swarm up from the bowels of the earth and spread across the world. The battle between the Great Dwarf and the Great Destroyer is fated to play out once again, and the dwarves will be forever transformed by this final battle.

If you hadn’t guessed already by now, it’s about here that the sylvari come in. Does any of the stuff above sound familiar? If you’ve been keeping up with all the threads proclaiming the sylvari to be dragon minions and the Pale Tree to be a dragon champion, it should. I would argue that, based on the example of the dwarves, it is possible to possess the similarities to dragon minions that sylvari have, and not be dragon minions – rather, almost the opposite. I would argue that the magic that spawned the Pale Tree is the same magic we see in the Rite of the Great Dwarf – something very similar to dragon magic, but used against the dragons. Just as the Great Dwarf and the Great Destroyer are two sides of the same coin, so too are the sylvari and Mordremoth.

So what of the Nightmare? And more pertinently, what of Vorpp’s dialogue in The Dead End: A Study in Scarlet:

Vorpp: “This is Synergetics Headmaster Omadd’s isolation module. A sylvari named Ceara went in; Scarlet came out.”
Vorpp: “I reverse-engineered an image of Ceara’s aura patterns before and after. The schism is pronounced and dramatic.”
Vorpp: “Yesss. I remember Professor Omadd. He outsmarted me in several Polymock tournaments. I’m sure he cheated…but that’s beside the point. He never should have put Ceara in that cube.”
Player: “What can you tell me about the cube?”
Vorpp: “His notes say its purpose was to shut down the mind’s security system and open it—like opening a door—to welcome in the truths of the Eternal Alchemy. But our minds are protected for a reason.”
Player: “When Scarlet looked across the open threshold, she saw things. And something looked back.”
Vorpp: “Ceara encountered something that literally broke her mind, but the only things in there were things she brought.”
Vorpp: “I surmise she was directly exposed to a part of her own psyche that had been carefully walled off. Perhaps for her own protection?”
Vorpp: “We’d need to do far more extensive study of the sylvari Dream before I could draw any more-detailed conclusions.”
Vorpp: “What I can conclude now is that she’s preparing to strike. Mark my words: Scarlet’s next attack is planned and ready.”

Part of the sylvari psyche seems to have been deliberately walled-off. It’s another leap, but my guess would be that if the magic that created the sylvari is derived from Elder Dragon magic (probably Mordremoth’s), then an aspect of that Elder Dragon will inevitably remain as part of the sylvari. The “walling-off”, then, was a deliberate attempt to prevent that aspect from surfacing. It could well be exactly the same magic used to liberate Glint from Kralkatorrik’s control (and might also go part of the way toward explaining how the dwarven Brotherhood of the Dragon could have a mental connection with Glint, which is something their successors, the Zephyrites, did not have).

Now this is a lengthy and broad post, and I can almost guarantee that some of this is wildly off. But I do firmly believe that it is a step closer to resolving the problematic question of the true nature of the sylvari.

Tamias.7059:

• Both are (now) made of natural materials. Dwarves are humanoid because that was how they looked before their Transformation, sylvari are humanoid because…well, reasons unknown.

great thread and I hope to delve into it further after work. I just wanted to chime in now though and state that A-net has confirmed that the sylvari are the Pale trees interpretation of humanity. So while we don’t know if it was a conscious decision on her part, we do know that she did model them specifically after humanity.

Dustfinger.9510:

Tamias.7059:

• Both are (now) made of natural materials. Dwarves are humanoid because that was how they looked before their Transformation, sylvari are humanoid because…well, reasons unknown.

great thread and I hope to delve into it further after work. I just wanted to chime in now though and state that A-net has confirmed that the sylvari are the Pale trees interpretation of humanity. So while we don’t know if it was a conscious decision on her part, we do know that she did model them specifically after humanity.

Do you mind if I have a source? There was a theory (I think it might have even been mine, actually) a long time ago that the sylvari are humanoid because the seed that would become the Pale Tree was planted on the graves of Ronan’s family (i.e. humans), and it even got a mention in a blog post, but the existence of a sylvari from another tree (Malyck) would seemingly put that to rest.

Tamias.7059:

• If you subscribe to the sylvari = dragon minions theory, then they are both capable of forming mental bonds with dragon champions (the dwarves with Glint, and the sylvari with Mordremoth) (source)

That source says nothing about Glint. And all it says is that the dwarves have a shared consciousness that makes them the Great Dwarf (which you already noted, though you incorrectly call the Great Dwarf a separate entity from the dwarves themselves like the Dream is for the sylvari). So I don’t see how you come to this conclusion at all. Sounds like you’re making things up to fit your theory.

Tamias.7059:

• Again, if you subscribe to the above theory, the fate of both is inextricably linked to the Elder Dragons. The dwarves lost their independence and began acting with single purpose in much the same way many believe the sylvari will.

I don’t see how “sylvari = dragon minions” is a requirement to sylvari potentially eventually acting with a single purpose (however, I would say all things hint to the opposite – that as more Elder Dragons die, the sylvari will have larger-spread freedoms and purposes).

Tamias.7059:

Now I’m not saying anything as extreme as the dwarves are dragon minions – just that the magic that allowed the dwarves to defeat the minions of the dragon is very similar in nature to the magic used by the dragon itself (where have we seen that before?)

Tamias.7059:

Where, and how, would the dwarves have acquired this magic?

I’ve had a theory on this, personally. There’s not much to back it up – mainly due to the lack of information of the last cycle – but it goes as such:

I think Jeff’s words in the interview with GuildMag you linked is very important to note:

Jeff Grubb: The Great Dwarf can best be thought of as collective consciousness of the dwarves themselves (indeed, in making the prophesy of the Great Dwarf defeating the Great Destroyer coming true). Has anyone MET the Great Dwarf, and found him to be a real being? Well, that has not happened.

This implies that the Great Dwarf very well could be an actual figure rather than just the concept of a shared consciousness between the dwarves. Tie this into Anvil Rock, and the history of the jotun – yes, the jotun. And this line is a good show of why:

Long ago, the jotun possessed the ability to use magic and were skilled enough with it to create enchanted monuments in the Shiverpeak Mountains.

The jotun were known for their magic, and enchanting stone. My theory is simply this:

I believe that the “Great Dwarf” was a jotun giant-king who crafted the originally-stone race to combat the Elder Dragons. At some point, through magic, they gained flesh and blood and the Hammer of the Great Dwarf was enchanted with the magic to return them to their original purpose.

Tamias.7059:

(Incidentally, a lot of this stuff begs a comparison between the elder races and the current ones. If we’re playing that game, I’d say dwarf = sylvari (obviously), mursaat = asura (the game tries to lead us on this one, see Arah dialogue, jotun = norn, Forgotten = human (ties to the Six Gods, spread across the world), and then by elimination Seers = charr. But this is all fairly irrelevant to the main thrust of the thread).

Off-topic but I would disagree with all but the jotun/mursaat comparisons. I would link Forgotten to the Sylvari due to the immunity to Elder Dragon magics, while charr to the dwarves for both are more industrial groups. This would leave the humans with seers. This would also be evident in continuing the match-up of the five scholars with the five ancient races (though not in Arah, there’s a charr scholar studying the dwarves seen in Victory or Death instance).

Tamias.7059:

If you hadn’t guessed already by now, it’s about here that the sylvari come in. Does any of the stuff above sound familiar? If you’ve been keeping up with all the threads proclaiming the sylvari to be dragon minions and the Pale Tree to be a dragon champion, it should. I would argue that, based on the example of the dwarves, it is possible to possess the similarities to dragon minions that sylvari have, and not be dragon minions – rather, almost the opposite. I would argue that the magic that spawned the Pale Tree is the same magic we see in the Rite of the Great Dwarf – something very similar to dragon magic, but used against the dragons. Just as the Great Dwarf and the Great Destroyer are two sides of the same coin, so too are the sylvari and Mordremoth.

But unlike the Great Dwarf, Mordremoth is an Elder Dragon. And as we’re lead to believe at least, one that corrupts and is not very nice either.

Your theory would stand on firmer ground if you cut Mordremoth and keep to the seeds in the cave as the would-be “dragon champion.”

However, I would like to postulate something for you. There is not one, but two artificial “acts like dragon minions” ideas going for you. The first you noted – the dwarves – the second… is the Foefire.

One of the main attributes to the Foefire ghosts is that they’re stuck living the last day of their life (sound familiar?) and that they see all living beings as equal enemies – the enemies of the caster, in this case the charr. They also hold shared mentalities (as Rytlock puts it, they hold Adelbern’s hatred). Furthermore, as we see in certain charr Personal Story steps and Ascalonian Catacombs, even certain events like Defend the Iron Legion camp from the ghost army, the stronger ghosts who lead the armies hold parts of their original personaltities and can even be convinced not to kill actual living charr. This, to me, is very similar to dragon minions – far more than the dwarves and especially more than the sylvari – in that the “weaker minions” are more or less mindless, while the stronger ones have more of their original personalities and can even act in their own methods, even at the risk of their master (Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan putting the Artesian waters at risk by calling off the six very powerful guards; Captain Whiting going out of his way to capture Cobiah instead of outright trying to kill him; Labwan the Deceiver’s odd actions can also count as this).

Magdaer and Sohothin which hold this magic predate the Exodus too, so one must wonder…

In the end though, I’m not really see the parallels you’re pointing out to such extremes. The sylvari Dream is not unique to them (White Stag) which alone puts a big dent in your theory; it is a (meta)physical place (Ogham Wilds waterfall, A Light in the Darkness) and is not a hive mind kind of set up which the dwarves now have, and which is what the dragon minions hold (so sayeth Killeen in Ghosts of Ascalon); and lastly, they hold more goals than just fighting Elder Dragons (you’ll find some with Wyld Hunts to fight the Sinister Triad, for example, in Brisban Wildslands – among other non-dragon things), unlike the dwarves.

Tamias.7059:

Dustfinger.9510:

great thread and I hope to delve into it further after work. I just wanted to chime in now though and state that A-net has confirmed that the sylvari are the Pale trees interpretation of humanity. So while we don’t know if it was a conscious decision on her part, we do know that she did model them specifically after humanity.

Do you mind if I have a source? There was a theory (I think it might have even been mine, actually) a long time ago that the sylvari are humanoid because the seed that would become the Pale Tree was planted on the graves of Ronan’s family (i.e. humans), and it even got a mention in a blog post, but the existence of a sylvari from another tree (Malyck) would seemingly put that to rest.

Oh! Oh! I can! I can! Pick me!

The main key to the design was developing an obvious anatomy that clearly described the race as plant rather than an offshoot of human. However, because the race tightly relates to the essence of human due to the Pale Tree’s influences from Ronan, the overall form has a human silhouette. But if you look more closely, you’ll see the forms are really quite alien. They are a collection of abstract notions the Pale Tree had about what made up the human, as she really only saw the surface. They are a tree’s interpretation of humans.

http://www.talktyria.net/2011/08/11/sylvari-lore-interview-with-ree-soesbee-kristen-perry/

So presumably Malyk’s Tree was influenced by… let’s say the druids. Other sylvari we meet might look like aloe husks.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tamias.7059:

• If you subscribe to the sylvari = dragon minions theory, then they are both capable of forming mental bonds with dragon champions (the dwarves with Glint, and the sylvari with Mordremoth) (source)

That source says nothing about Glint. And all it says is that the dwarves have a shared consciousness that makes them the Great Dwarf (which you already noted, though you incorrectly call the Great Dwarf a separate entity from the dwarves themselves like the Dream is for the sylvari). So I don’t see how you come to this conclusion at all. Sounds like you’re making things up to fit your theory.

I’d like to fully respond to your post in time, if possible, but I’d like to make a correction on this point, the source I linked to was the wrong one; the one I’d meant to paste was this.

Fluffball.8307:

So presumably Malyk’s Tree was influenced by… let’s say the druids. Other sylvari we meet might look like aloe husks.

Or maybe krait.

Tamias.7059:

I’d like to fully respond to your post in time, if possible, but I’d like to make a correction on this point, the source I linked to was the wrong one; the one I’d meant to paste was this.

Fair enough. However, this talks about the Brotherhood of the Dragon, not stone dwarves. Given the Brotherhood formed a pact with Glint long (how long, unknown) before the Rite of the Great Dwarf was envoked, it doesn’t seem to me that the two are related like you’re claiming.

Even then, your point fails in the sylvari, because again: Mordremoth isn’t a champion, but an Elder Dragon.

Honestly, I think your theory would hold a lot more water if you kept the “sylvari=dragon minion” mentality out of it completely. I can honestly see the sylvari being some backup weapon if the Rite of the Great Dwarf wasn’t good enough, but not so if they’re dragon minions – former or otherwise.

Awesome Theory!! I think its less explanatory in the case of sylvari and more interesting if we look at corruption and what it is. See, the green-stone dwarves ARE corrupted, yet their state is somehow a counterpart of the dragon corruption. The great destroyer has a counterpart, maybe Primordus has one too. Maybe all the dragons are just one side of the Equation – The Alchemy has just been thrown out of balance somehow.. May be connected with the disappearance of the gods.

When Snaff entered the dragons Mind he only found greed and anger. So prepare for tinfoil hat mode. TRANSFORM!!! My theory is, that whenever a Mage uses a spell, he connects his mind to a elemental force in the mists in order to get the according elemental energy. But he doesn’t only take something, he does also give something back – a part of himself – a photograph of his mental and emotional state. But if magic is only used in warfare, in hate, like in the guild wars, the hate and anger gathers in the mists and when the dragons awaken, to bring back order to the magic of the world, they are filled with fury and hate, becoming the destructive forces we see right now.

But the Sylvari are different. Green magic has seldom been used. Druid used it but kept their magic secret. There was no GW1 class using green earth and plant magic. Rangers use it sometimes but they mainly focus on their weapons. There also are only 5 known blood stones. Maybe this green energy might have been protected by the gods by hiding it in another blood stone they kept away from the humans and their greed.

With only druids using the magic, and a whole village of pacifists tendering the pale tree, reverse corruption might have happened, influencing the green energy in the mists. With this new, positive energy flooding through the magic of the world, the sylvari grew amongst their hostile friends, the iboga, the aloe and the thornlings. Of course some of the sylvari felt there was still more then just love and still turned to the dark side.

How the dragons should be tied to all of this – I have no idea. They seem to be more of a pure black thing of pure negativity – maybe thats their purpose, to gather the hate inside themselves and then calm it down as they sleep.

If this turned out to be just partially true, it would mean, the people of Tyria need to use magic more responsibly, and start using magic in a way to help each other in everyday life. Like summoning elementals that do their work or guard their village… oh.. wait..

Would be cool, just to find some arguments that magic and emotions are tied together – especially because in Tyria everything seems to be made of magic.

Yea.. I know… random theory in the face, right?

Wow, talk about jumping to conclusions, this is Olympic gold medal winning long jump.

What next humans, being 70% water are minions of the deep sea dragon? Asura as minions of big K because Asura use crystals quite a bit?

It is an interesting theory, and a heck of a lot better than the usual sylvari-are-dragon-minions theories that, when asked how the PT got its freedom, are responded to by some handwavy about Ventari’s Tablet that we now know is not sufficient to break an entity free. The analogy with the Great Dwarf is an interesting one, although the question is worth raising… is there actually a common origin between the two hive minds, or is it just that observing the stone dwarf hivemind allowed Gwen to recognise that the destroyers also acted like a hivemind, despite the hiveminds having very different origins?

Konig makes a valid point, however – the Dream certainly does seem to be a metaphysical construct that’s seperate to the sylvari, although the Pale Tree and sylvari have strong links to the Dream. Mordremoth does seem to be able to touch the Dream, but I suspect this is because the Dream is a form of magic that Mordremoth likes the taste of (the dragons do seem to have their preferences), not that the Dream is a conversion of the magic that forms the dragon minion hive mind.

Personally, I’ve thought for a while that the sylvari might be an ‘artificial’ race created during the last rise to be additional soldiers against the dragons. The Forgotten had once dwelled in the jungles according to the GW1 Manuscripts, and we know the Forgotten have the ability to cleanse and shield against dragon corruption. With that being the case, it’s certainly possible that the sylvari were created by the Forgotten, possibly with some collaboration by the other races, as an additional soldier race alongside the dwarves (if they were also artificial, and between the dwarven creation legend and the effect of the Rite, I’m leaning in that direction). For whatever reason, though – maybe they were created afterwards, maybe they just didn’t mature in time – the sylvari didn’t take part in the last awakening.

Certainly, we know that the Forgotten did (and possibly still do, if any are still around) have the capability to shield things from, and remove, dragon corruption. If the sylvari species (including the Pale Trees) were artificially created, then the Forgotten could have granted them with this protection. The barrier in Caera’s mind that was broken, then, could well have been this protection – allowing Mordremoth or his actual champion the ability to start working on Caera’s mind through the Nightmare.

Under this scenario, it is plausible that the ancestral stock may well have been minions of Mordremoth – something like a Pale Tree does seem like an ideal method for a plant-oriented dragon to grow an army. The point is that this is putting the moment of conversion a lot further back than the usual theories (performed by the Forgotten in the last awakening) and the flawed evidence usually put forward for such arguments need not apply.

EDIT: @Miroe: That is a random, but quite interesting, theory – and somewhat reflective of the Realm of Chaos/Warp in Warhammer. Mind you, I’ve drawn the analogy between the Warp and the Mists myself before.

It does strike me that when the gods reintroduced magic, they intended it to be used as a tool, not a weapon… and when it was used as a weapon, they modified it in a way that they hoped would encourage cooperation. Maybe they knew something we didn’t?

A shared consciousness is interesting, but it might be more of a coincidence, remember even Skritt have a (kinda) hive-mind, and I don’t see them playing an important role in the war against the EDs. Also the shared conciousness amongst ED minions doesn’t seem universal. In the case of Zhaitan, although they worked towards a common goal and were influenced by Zhaitan’s will, we do see several individuals acting fairly independently in achieving those goals.

Miroe.2054:

Awesome Theory!! I think its less explanatory in the case of sylvari and more interesting if we look at corruption and what it is. See, the green-stone dwarves ARE corrupted, yet their state is somehow a counterpart of the dragon corruption. The great destroyer has a counterpart, maybe Primordus has one too. Maybe all the dragons are just one side of the Equation – The Alchemy has just been thrown out of balance somehow.. May be connected with the disappearance of the gods.

You touched on something here that I neglected to mention in my first post, namely that both the dwarves and the sylvari are resistant to dragon corruption. Sure, Primordus seems to prefer to construct minions rather than corrupt living creatures, but even still you’d expect to see a few Destroyer dwarves wandering out onto the surface every now and then, given that as far as we know, the dwarves are what’s stopping Primordus’ minions from swarming the surface. And yet we don’t. Similarly, if it is possible to corrupt sylvari with dragon magic, we haven’t seen it yet.

There aren’t many things in Tyria that can’t be corrupted by dragon magic, so if we find two of them, it’s definitely worth trying to look for some sort of connection. The only other thing I can think of off the top my head actually is the Foefire ghosts (they don’t seem too bothered by the Dragonbrand), who, as Konig mentions above, fight with the same strange, driven passion that the dwarves do. So that really might be a good line of inquiry. If the dwarves are the other side of the Primordus coin, and the sylvari are the flipside of Mordremoth, maybe the ghosts correspond to Zhaitan? After all, the Ghostbore weapons, developed for use against the ghosts of Ascalon, are utilised to great effect in the Pact’s campaign in Orr. So maybe they’re made of the same stuff.

draxynnic.3719:

It is an interesting theory, and a heck of a lot better than the usual sylvari-are-dragon-minions theories that, when asked how the PT got its freedom, are responded to by some handwavy about Ventari’s Tablet that we now know is not sufficient to break an entity free. The analogy with the Great Dwarf is an interesting one, although the question is worth raising… is there actually a common origin between the two hive minds, or is it just that observing the stone dwarf hivemind allowed Gwen to recognise that the destroyers also acted like a hivemind, despite the hiveminds having very different origins?

Proving the connection between the Great Dwarf and the Dream of Dreams is a little more tough, I’ll grant you, but I’m confident that the Great Dwarf and the Great Destroyer (the group mind, not the actual monster itself) are very closely linked. From the very first mention of the Great Destroyer (and bear in mind that this was years before anyone had come up with the Eye of the North and Guild Wars 2 stories, so ANet probably had a very different idea of what the Great Dwarf was), you really get the sense that the Great Destroyer was kind of equal and opposite to the Great Dwarf. Even from the names alone, you feel like they’re being presented as rivals, who have similarities.

Gwen’s dialogue was actually just the icing on the cake – I was just looking for things to reinforce a connection between the two when I found that, and it seemed strong enough that much other evidence would be unnecessary.

draxynnic.3719:

Certainly, we know that the Forgotten did (and possibly still do, if any are still around) have the capability to shield things from, and remove, dragon corruption. If the sylvari species (including the Pale Trees) were artificially created, then the Forgotten could have granted them with this protection. The barrier in Caera’s mind that was broken, then, could well have been this protection – allowing Mordremoth or his actual champion the ability to start working on Caera’s mind through the Nightmare.

Just wanted to add that I really like this idea! There seems to be a storyline building about the sylvari’s overall place in Tyria, with many Lion’s Arch citizens now distrusting the sylvari due to Scarlet’s actions. It wouldn’t bode well for the sylvari if it was discovered that they were made from the same stuff as the minions of an Elder Dragon, even if they have no connection. So I’ve a feeling that we’ll be finding out more about this aspect of the sylvari’s origins in the near future, as it ties in pretty well with the stuff going on in the Lion’s Arch area.

Ghosts corresponding to Zhaitan is an interesting continuation of the line of inquiry – the Foefire was sourced from Orrian magic, after all, and it’s plausible that Magdaer and Sohothin was the result of a similar line of research. One interesting test of this general theory could be: If we have parallels to three of the dragons, will we see parallels to the others?

Kralkatorrik is probably easy to check off – Glint, her offspring, and quite likely the crystal constructs she used as guards as well. That leaves Jormag and the DSD.

Regarding the intertwining of the Great Dwarf and Destroyer…

I’m still not entirely convinced that this means that the Great Dwarf represents a reappopriation of the Destroyer hive mind, and not simply that the hypothetical creator(s) of the dwarves were looking to create something to match the Destroyers, and did so without actually tapping into their power. I’d consider that part to be still inconclusive without firmer evidence than looking at the parallels – those parallels could mean that both diverge from a common root, but it could also be a case of convergent evolution – the two look similar, and in fact the Great Dwarf was deliberately made in order to fight the destroyers, but the creator(s) of the dwarves did not actually use anything from the destroyers to do so – they were simply looking to create a similar effect.

Now, I agree that it is plausible… but the evidence remains inconclusive.

Fluffball.8307:

So presumably Malyk’s Tree was influenced by… let’s say the druids. Other sylvari we meet might look like aloe husks.

I’d say so. Walking plants from a Pale tree type figure may not be so new. They could have been encountered many times in the past but if their own Pale tree was influenced by any other of Tyrias mobile carnivorous plants then it’s version of sylvari would have been near indistinguishable. especially without the influence of a tablet or the desire to interact with humanity due to Ronan. Maybe they would have just been more intelligent and better at killing.

Miroe.2054:

May be connected with the disappearance of the gods.

We already know why the Six Gods ceased communication. It has nothing to do with the Elder Dragons.

Q: Are the Six [gods] really gone or not? Their power is still very much present. Players can call upon the gods’ power with prayers, NPC priests can summon Reapers of Grenth etc., and their statues are still stuffed with energy. So if they left, why are their power still here?

Jeff Grubb: The human gods still exist, and their power is still felt within Tyria. However, they have pulled back into the mists, leaving the humans to stand (or fall) on their own merits. There has been a tendency for the human gods to, um, meddle with their worshippers a bit much, and in the wake of the final battle of Abaddon, they have been trying to cut back. Also, the destruction of the big A and his replacement with Kormir in the Pantheon resolved one of their ties with physical contact with Tyria. So there are ties, but you just can’t ring them up to take on the Elder Dragons.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dolyak-Express-Jan-10-2014/page/3#post3545340

The rest of your post, Miroe, is… interesting. But holds zero basis or support, really.

draxynnic.3719:

Konig makes a valid point, however – the Dream certainly does seem to be a metaphysical construct that’s seperate to the sylvari, although the Pale Tree and sylvari have strong links to the Dream. Mordremoth does seem to be able to touch the Dream, but I suspect this is because the Dream is a form of magic that Mordremoth likes the taste of (the dragons do seem to have their preferences), not that the Dream is a conversion of the magic that forms the dragon minion hive mind.

I actually look to the White Stag for the explanation behind the “Mordremoth is the source of the Nightmare” theory – the White Stag is mentioned to be a being of magic, as is the Pale Tree. So I think the requirements for accessing the Dream is 1) location and 2) amount of magic within oneself. This would allow an Elder Dragon located within the Maguuma Jungle to access the Dream. This could also be used to explain why some but not all of the Risen in A Light in the Darkness are hostile – the ones that are hostile are more magical (those Orrian weapon sentries for example).

This would also explain the notion of Caithe and Faolain encountering the Nightmare in Orr – Nightmare of a different origin (Zhaitan).

CureForLiving.5360:

A shared consciousness is interesting, but it might be more of a coincidence, remember even Skritt have a (kinda) hive-mind, and I don’t see them playing an important role in the war against the EDs. Also the shared conciousness amongst ED minions doesn’t seem universal. In the case of Zhaitan, although they worked towards a common goal and were influenced by Zhaitan’s will, we do see several individuals acting fairly independently in achieving those goals.

The skritt is less hive mind and more hypercommunication (like the Geth of Mass Effect). They don’t share thoughts – they just communicate very fast.

As to Zhaitan’s minions – that’s actually the prime example other than the Great Destroyer for hive minds amongst dragon minions! The thing is that the more magic was sent back to the minion by Zhaitan in corrupting, the stronger and more intelligent it is – being more intelligent, they are capable of making decisions and acting independently while also leading the more mindless minions.

Jormag, Primordus, and Zhaitan are all specifically explained in having this function amongst their minions. The less magic a minion gets, the weaker it is and the more mindless it is (and in risen cases, the corpses are soulless like Romke’s crew). On the flip side, however, the more magic a minion gets the stronger it becomes and the more intelligent it is (and in risen cases, the soul becomes trapped within the minion like with the Keeper of Grenth’s Temple and King Reza). There seems to be varying degrees to this but generally minions are classified into three groups – standard, lieutenants, and champions (being the highest and even capable of acting of their own accord to varying degrees).

Tamias.7059:

You touched on something here that I neglected to mention in my first post, namely that both the dwarves and the sylvari are resistant to dragon corruption. Sure, Primordus seems to prefer to construct minions rather than corrupt living creatures, but even still you’d expect to see a few Destroyer dwarves wandering out onto the surface every now and then, given that as far as we know, the dwarves are what’s stopping Primordus’ minions from swarming the surface. And yet we don’t.

I wouldn’t take the lack of destroyer dwarves with too much worth just yet. I mean, how many destroyers do we see? And of them, how many varieties? Not very many.

Tamias.7059:

The only other thing I can think of off the top my head actually is the Foefire ghosts (they don’t seem too bothered by the Dragonbrand)

Each Elder Dragon seems to corrupt – when doing so directly – differently. And Kralkatorrik’s cup o’ tea seems to be “physical.” He doesn’t corrupt water either, but rather corrupted through the water.

Tamias.7059:

Proving the connection between the Great Dwarf and the Dream of Dreams is a little more tough, I’ll grant you, but I’m confident that the Great Dwarf and the Great Destroyer (the group mind, not the actual monster itself) are very closely linked. From the very first mention of the Great Destroyer (and bear in mind that this was years before anyone had come up with the Eye of the North and Guild Wars 2 stories, so ANet probably had a very different idea of what the Great Dwarf was), you really get the sense that the Great Destroyer was kind of equal and opposite to the Great Dwarf. Even from the names alone, you feel like they’re being presented as rivals, who have similarities.

However, take into consideration that this is dwarven myth from the Tome of Rubicon, and we have very specific mention that the Tome of Rubicon is NOT a valid source of information.

That we know of. This was a very long time ago. I’m afraid none of them are coming forward with helpful information. We have the dwarven Tome of Rubicon, but it has been changed over the years.

draxynnic.3719:

Kralkatorrik is probably easy to check off – Glint, her offspring, and quite likely the crystal constructs she used as guards as well. That leaves Jormag and the DSD.

Well, there’s the Dragon’s Eye that is somehow connected to the Elder Dragons, belonging to the dwarves. Personally, made me think of the Heart of Ice used to make ice elementals.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

We already know why the Six Gods ceased communication. It has nothing to do with the Elder Dragons.

Q: Are the Six [gods] really gone or not? Their power is still very much present. Players can call upon the gods’ power with prayers, NPC priests can summon Reapers of Grenth etc., and their statues are still stuffed with energy. So if they left, why are their power still here?

Jeff Grubb: The human gods still exist, and their power is still felt within Tyria. However, they have pulled back into the mists, leaving the humans to stand (or fall) on their own merits. There has been a tendency for the human gods to, um, meddle with their worshippers a bit much, and in the wake of the final battle of Abaddon, they have been trying to cut back. Also, the destruction of the big A and his replacement with Kormir in the Pantheon resolved one of their ties with physical contact with Tyria. So there are ties, but you just can’t ring them up to take on the Elder Dragons.

“Oh, we interfered a bit much in the past, maybe its better to just let them be killed” makes perfectly sense. I don’t say these are not reasons – I just think and hope there is more to it to be revealed.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The rest of your post, Miroe, is… interesting. But holds zero basis or support, really.

But I put my tinfoil hat on, how can you say such a mean thing?!

Miroe, keep in mind that the Six Gods left over 45 years before the first of the Elder Dragons awoke – they may not even had known of the Elder Dragons waking until Zhaitan (given that Zhaitan has stolen souls from Grenth, Grenth knows of it), but hey, Zhaitans’ dead now. Not like the Six Gods interferred when Abaddon wrecked up the place anyways, so why would they over a single Elder Dragon (again, no indication they know of Primordus, Jormag, or the other three Elder Dragons).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

draxynnic.3719:

Konig makes a valid point, however – the Dream certainly does seem to be a metaphysical construct that’s seperate to the sylvari, although the Pale Tree and sylvari have strong links to the Dream. Mordremoth does seem to be able to touch the Dream, but I suspect this is because the Dream is a form of magic that Mordremoth likes the taste of (the dragons do seem to have their preferences), not that the Dream is a conversion of the magic that forms the dragon minion hive mind.

I actually look to the White Stag for the explanation behind the “Mordremoth is the source of the Nightmare” theory – the White Stag is mentioned to be a being of magic, as is the Pale Tree. So I think the requirements for accessing the Dream is 1) location and 2) amount of magic within oneself. This would allow an Elder Dragon located within the Maguuma Jungle to access the Dream. This could also be used to explain why some but not all of the Risen in A Light in the Darkness are hostile – the ones that are hostile are more magical (those Orrian weapon sentries for example).

This would also explain the notion of Caithe and Faolain encountering the Nightmare in Orr – Nightmare of a different origin (Zhaitan).

I think you’re probably overcomplicating this. ANet rarely worry so closely about the precise details of how things like this work anyway (an hour’s worth of exposition to explain the finer points on the differences between different hiveminds in Tyria would make for pretty poor storytelling, after all), but in the Guild Wars universe a mind or a consciousness very much can also be a (meta)physical location. There’s quite a lot in Edge of Destiny, for example to support this – the passages I’m thinking of are the ones where Snaff is trying to access Kralkatorrik’s mind, and the book speaks of it as if he is physically exploring it, but I’m sure there are plenty of other examples as well. Suffice to say, the only group consciousness in Guild Wars 2 that we really understand in any sort of detail is the sylvari one. The specifics of the Great Dwarf, and the method by which the dragons control their minions, aren’t very well documented at all in comparison.

Besides, from what Vorpp says in A Study in Scarlet, specifically “I surmise she was directly exposed to a part of her own psyche that had been carefully walled off. Perhaps for her own protection? We’d need to do far more extensive study of the sylvari Dream before I could draw any more-detailed conclusions.”, it seems that the Dream really is something that is “built-in” to the sylvari (as for the White Stag, well, Caithe describes it as “a manifestation of the faith and joy of our race”, so although it exists both in reality and the Dream, it is still very much related to the sylvari). I suppose it all hinges on whether you believe Malyck’s tree has its own Dream, really. As I said in another thread, it probably does – he feels a sense of distance, and longing, which suggests some sort of empathic connection to the rest of “his” sylvari, but his sylvari most certainly aren’t connected to our sylvari. The difference wouldn’t be the lack of a Dream, then, but the lack of a Ventari Tablet (which is obvious from how he behaves). If Malyck didn’t dream, then the Nightmare Court (who call him the Harbinger, interesting choice of words given that two short years afterward the jungle dragon would awaken) going after his tree to convert it to nightmare would be a fruitless task, given than a Dream is a necessary vector for spreading nightmare. Reread all the dialogue in the Where Life Goes storyline again. I think you’ll be convinced that Malyck is a Dreamer, of sorts.

As for friendly Risen in A Light in the Darkness, I always thought it pretty obvious that it was just to make the quest flow a bit more nicely. Orr is densely packed with mobs, and it’s quite atmospheric and unsettling to see these undead wandering about behaving almost normally. Besides, the Orr we visit in that quest isn’t actually real, but a vision of a possible future, shown by the Pale Tree.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tamias.7059:

The only other thing I can think of off the top my head actually is the Foefire ghosts (they don’t seem too bothered by the Dragonbrand)

Each Elder Dragon seems to corrupt – when doing so directly – differently. And Kralkatorrik’s cup o’ tea seems to be “physical.” He doesn’t corrupt water either, but rather corrupted through the water.

Again, I think you’re overthinking the mechanics of dragon corruption. Kralkatorrik does plenty of “mental” corruption as well, just read Edge of Destiny.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tamias.7059:

Proving the connection between the Great Dwarf and the Dream of Dreams is a little more tough, I’ll grant you, but I’m confident that the Great Dwarf and the Great Destroyer (the group mind, not the actual monster itself) are very closely linked. From the very first mention of the Great Destroyer (and bear in mind that this was years before anyone had come up with the Eye of the North and Guild Wars 2 stories, so ANet probably had a very different idea of what the Great Dwarf was), you really get the sense that the Great Destroyer was kind of equal and opposite to the Great Dwarf. Even from the names alone, you feel like they’re being presented as rivals, who have similarities.

However, take into consideration that this is dwarven myth from the Tome of Rubicon, and we have very specific mention that the Tome of Rubicon is NOT a valid source of information.

That we know of. This was a very long time ago. I’m afraid none of them are coming forward with helpful information. We have the dwarven Tome of Rubicon, but it has been changed over the years.

Nothing says that the Tome of Rubicon is an “invalid” source of information. Just that it’s not going to be completely accurate, and so its word shouldn’t be taken as gospel. Actually, of what we know about its contents (a limited amount, admittedly), much has been shown to be pretty reliable so far.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

draxynnic.3719:

Kralkatorrik is probably easy to check off – Glint, her offspring, and quite likely the crystal constructs she used as guards as well. That leaves Jormag and the DSD.

Well, there’s the Dragon’s Eye that is somehow connected to the Elder Dragons, belonging to the dwarves. Personally, made me think of the Heart of Ice used to make ice elementals.

Doesn’t seem to be much info on the wiki. What does the Dragon’s Eye actually do? If we’re looking for a DSD-related magic that shields against dragon corruption, btw, the krait orb may be a candidate.

Tamias.7059:

So what of the Nightmare? And more pertinently, what of Vorpp’s dialogue in The Dead End: A Study in Scarlet:

Vorpp: “This is Synergetics Headmaster Omadd’s isolation module. A sylvari named Ceara went in; Scarlet came out.”
Vorpp: “I reverse-engineered an image of Ceara’s aura patterns before and after. The schism is pronounced and dramatic.”
Vorpp: “Yesss. I remember Professor Omadd. He outsmarted me in several Polymock tournaments. I’m sure he cheated…but that’s beside the point. He never should have put Ceara in that cube.”
Player: “What can you tell me about the cube?”
Vorpp: “His notes say its purpose was to shut down the mind’s security system and open it—like opening a door—to welcome in the truths of the Eternal Alchemy. But our minds are protected for a reason.”
Player: “When Scarlet looked across the open threshold, she saw things. And something looked back.”
Vorpp: “Ceara encountered something that literally broke her mind, but the only things in there were things she brought.”
Vorpp: “I surmise she was directly exposed to a part of her own psyche that had been carefully walled off. Perhaps for her own protection?”
Vorpp: “We’d need to do far more extensive study of the sylvari Dream before I could draw any more-detailed conclusions.”
Vorpp: “What I can conclude now is that she’s preparing to strike. Mark my words: Scarlet’s next attack is planned and ready.”

Part of the sylvari psyche seems to have been deliberately walled-off. It’s another leap, but my guess would be that if the magic that created the sylvari is derived from Elder Dragon magic (probably Mordremoth’s), then an aspect of that Elder Dragon will inevitably remain as part of the sylvari. The “walling-off”, then, was a deliberate attempt to prevent that aspect from surfacing. It could well be exactly the same magic used to liberate Glint from Kralkatorrik’s control (and might also go part of the way toward explaining how the dwarven Brotherhood of the Dragon could have a mental connection with Glint, which is something their successors, the Zephyrites, did not have).

Now this is a lengthy and broad post, and I can almost guarantee that some of this is wildly off. But I do firmly believe that it is a step closer to resolving the problematic question of the true nature of the sylvari.

Well, the only thing we, as players, have to do is capturing someone from the nightmare court and bring him to the end of Arah P3, where warden Illyra has freed the risen chicken, to free the sylvari. If the sylvari isn’t obsessed by the nightmare after the ritual, we’ve proven that the nightmare is an incarnation of Mordremoth’s influence and that the sylvari are indeed dragonminions. The pure luck is accountable for the finding of Ventari’s Tablet by the Pale Tree, which has turned the sylvari as race into a “good one”. We have to see how Mordremoth’s awakening will influence the dream, if the Pale Tree is able to resist the influence of Mordremoth.

Tamias.7059:

I think you’re probably overcomplicating this.

Or you’re oversimplifying it. There is a very real, very distinct difference between the Dream of Dreams and a hive mind. And in fact, ArenaNet HAS explained this in Ghosts of Ascalon – sadly, my books are packed away from packing, but I pointed this out to you in another thread of yours trying to link sylvari to dragon minions, in which while eating with Dougal, Killeen explains that the Dream of Dreams is not a hive mind – stating so very specifically. Look in your past threads for such, since I cannot provide a specific page at this point (sorry).

((Edit: Did the work and looked through threads you commented in. Here you go:

“It isn’t mind reading, and we aren’t all connected into one big mass mind. However, before coming into this world, all sylvari are united in the Dream of Dreams.”
Killeen, Ghosts of Ascalon – Page 120

There you have it, again, Dream of Dreams is not “one big mass mind” and there’s no mind reading involved – ergo, not a hive mind, unlike dragon minions.

For more details, see this post. ))

So yes, ArenaNet does work out “the differences between different hiveminds in Tyria”. It isn’t an hour’s worth, but it doesn’t need to be either.

Tamias.7059:

in the Guild Wars universe a mind or a consciousness very much can also be a (meta)physical location. There’s quite a lot in Edge of Destiny, for example to support this – the passages I’m thinking of are the ones where Snaff is trying to access Kralkatorrik’s mind, and the book speaks of it as if he is physically exploring it, but I’m sure there are plenty of other examples as well.

That is more of a vision, then an actual location you can go to. When I say metaphysical locations I mean places like the Mists and the afterlife – places for souls and the like, as souls and such typically are considered “metaphysical” in fantasy settings. The Dreams of Dreams is somewhere people can, with their own actual bodies, go to (see A Light in the Darkness) – but people’s minds, like with Kralkatorrik, is not; Snaff’s body never actually left the golem.

Tamias.7059:

Suffice to say, the only group consciousness in Guild Wars 2 that we really understand in any sort of detail is the sylvari one. The specifics of the Great Dwarf, and the method by which the dragons control their minions, aren’t very well documented at all in comparison.

I’d say dragon minion mentality is just as documented as the Dream of Dreams. We know that they hold a direct tie to the Elder Dragon, that the dragon knows what they know, and that this tie is what’s used to differentiate ally and foe amongst the dragon minions (the last comes from an old Guru2 post – which explains that this is what happened with the Dragonspawn in Edge of Destiny).

Tamias.7059:

Besides, from what Vorpp says in A Study in Scarlet, specifically “I surmise she was directly exposed to a part of her own psyche that had been carefully walled off. Perhaps for her own protection? We’d need to do far more extensive study of the sylvari Dream before I could draw any more-detailed conclusions.”, it seems that the Dream really is something that is “built-in” to the sylvari (as for the White Stag, well, Caithe describes it as “a manifestation of the faith and joy of our race”, so although it exists both in reality and the Dream, it is still very much related to the sylvari).

I see nothing surmising that the Dream is built-in to the sylvari in Vorpp’s dialogue.

Tamias.7059:

If Malyck didn’t dream, then the Nightmare Court (who call him the Harbinger, interesting choice of words given that two short years afterward the jungle dragon would awaken) going after his tree to convert it to nightmare would be a fruitless task, given than a Dream is a necessary vector for spreading nightmare. Reread all the dialogue in the Where Life Goes storyline again. I think you’ll be convinced that Malyck is a Dreamer, of sorts.

The title “harbinger” is fully unrelated to Mordremoth’s awakening (rather obvious since he held no role in it). Its title is already explained: his existence is proof that the Nightmare Court do not need to twist the Pale Tree but can simply go to this other tree and forsake the Pale Tree – effectively starting anew. Nightmare doesn’t need to be spread to the dream – they simply need to teach the sylvari their ways. You don’t need the Dream of Dreams to brainwash children – the krait do well without it, to keep from real life examples.

Tamias.7059:

Again, I think you’re overthinking the mechanics of dragon corruption. Kralkatorrik does plenty of “mental” corruption as well, just read Edge of Destiny.

Not really. He simply defends against attacks on his mentality. I would hardly call that being “mental corruption” – it’s just him defending against a mental attack. This is a common theme amongst any fictional work dealing with mental attacks – the attacked can defend against the mental attack if smart enough. This is no different.

Tamias.7059:

Nothing says that the Tome of Rubicon is an “invalid” source of information. Just that it’s not going to be completely accurate, and so its word shouldn’t be taken as gospel. Actually, of what we know about its contents (a limited amount, admittedly), much has been shown to be pretty reliable so far.

Of the two things we’ve learned from it, only half of it has. It’s not a very good stance for empirical evidence.

Tamias.7059:

Doesn’t seem to be much info on the wiki. What does the Dragon’s Eye actually do? If we’re looking for a DSD-related magic that shields against dragon corruption, btw, the krait orb may be a candidate.

We never see what it does – just that it’s ancient dwarven gem (it’s large and purple, like an amethyst) and it is said to be capable of helping against the Elder Dragons. Thank you, ArenaNet, for the very poor show of lore (like all the ‘help me find/study artifacts!’ Orrian events… we learn nothing of these artifacts…).

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Well, the only thing we, as players, have to do is capturing someone from the nightmare court and bring him to the end of Arah P3, where warden Illyra has freed the risen chicken, to free the sylvari. If the sylvari isn’t obsessed by the nightmare after the ritual, we’ve proven that the nightmare is an incarnation of Mordremoth’s influence and that the sylvari are indeed dragonminions. The pure luck is accountable for the finding of Ventari’s Tablet by the Pale Tree, which has turned the sylvari as race into a “good one”. We have to see how Mordremoth’s awakening will influence the dream, if the Pale Tree is able to resist the influence of Mordremoth.

I fail to see how a sylvari turning normal if it was a Nightmare Courtier and underwent a mentality cleansing ritual means all sylvari are dragon minions and the Ventari’s Tablet is what freed them.

Even if that ritual cleans Nightmare Courtiers, all that means is that 1) the ritual cleans any mental alterations and not just dragon corruption, or 2) the Nightmare is tied to the Elder Dragons (not necessarily Mordremoth!). Doesn’t prove sylvari on a whole as cleansed dragon minions – let alone non-cleasned ones (given no change in Illyra, that seems like if they are dragon minions, then they were cleansed already somehow – and the Ventari Tablet holds no magic to do such a feat).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Well, the only thing we, as players, have to do is capturing someone from the nightmare court and bring him to the end of Arah P3, where warden Illyra has freed the risen chicken, to free the sylvari. If the sylvari isn’t obsessed by the nightmare after the ritual, we’ve proven that the nightmare is an incarnation of Mordremoth’s influence and that the sylvari are indeed dragonminions. The pure luck is accountable for the finding of Ventari’s Tablet by the Pale Tree, which has turned the sylvari as race into a “good one”. We have to see how Mordremoth’s awakening will influence the dream, if the Pale Tree is able to resist the influence of Mordremoth.

I fail to see how a sylvari turning normal if it was a Nightmare Courtier and underwent a mentality cleansing ritual means all sylvari are dragon minions and the Ventari’s Tablet is what freed them.

Even if that ritual cleans Nightmare Courtiers, all that means is that 1) the ritual cleans any mental alterations and not just dragon corruption, or 2) the Nightmare is tied to the Elder Dragons (not necessarily Mordremoth!). Doesn’t prove sylvari on a whole as cleansed dragon minions – let alone non-cleasned ones (given no change in Illyra, that seems like if they are dragon minions, then they were cleansed already somehow – and the Ventari Tablet holds no magic to do such a feat).

The ritual is meant to free dragonminions from their obsession. It has freed Glint and it has freed the risen chicken.
The nightmare is a part of the dream and I think it’s the influence of Mordremoth.
All who are obsessed by the nightmare can’t be saved, so the nightmare is behaving like any other dragon obsession. Yet Mordremoth is sleeping so he has no power to control the dream, he is, however, already influencing the dream and drives the nightmare court to attack the Pale Tree and other races.
The sylvari are being born by the Pale Tree, a seed of unknown source. It could be Mordremoth’s way to create minions.
Ventari’s Tablet however gave a destiny to the Pale Tree, the Tree was able to understand the world before he was even grown. If the sylvari would have no clue what so ever why they were created, they would fall much more easily to Mordremoth’s influence.
So let’s recap:
The nightmare is a part of the dream, it’s being established with the creation of the dream itself and it’s influencing the sylvari all the time. Conclusion: The very exsistance of the sylvari is the reason for the nighmare to exsist. It’s always been a part of them.
So, if the ritual is able to free a sylvari from the nightmare, that shows that the nightmare is a dragonmade obsession, like the brand is from Kralkatorrik. It also shows that the sylvari are dragonminions, since the nightmare and the dream are connected, if not even the same.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Conclusion: The very exsistance of the sylvari is the reason for the nighmare to exsist. It’s always been a part of them.

Through this logic there exist another possible explanation. The nightmare isn’t dragon corruption or dragon influence upon the Sylvari but rather the darker aspects of the Sylvari made manifest within the Dream. If this is the case than for the Sylvari to “fall to nightmare” is for a Sylvari to succumb to any number of negative emotions. Essentially the Sylvari are Guild Wars 2 equivalent of Jedi if one were to look at this hypothesis in a particular way. To follow the Light path one must adhere to the teachings of the tablet while to follow dark is to give oneself into their darker emotions aka the Nightmare.

But I doubt this is and the “its dragon corruption/nightmare thus Sylvari are Dragon minions” are correct.

Darkbattlemage.9612:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Conclusion: The very exsistance of the sylvari is the reason for the nighmare to exsist. It’s always been a part of them.

Through this logic there exist another possible explanation. The nightmare isn’t dragon corruption or dragon influence upon the Sylvari but rather the darker aspects of the Sylvari made manifest within the Dream. If this is the case than for the Sylvari to “fall to nightmare” is for a Sylvari to succumb to any number of negative emotions. Essentially the Sylvari are Guild Wars 2 equivalent of Jedi if one were to look at this hypothesis in a particular way. To follow the Light path one must adhere to the teachings of the tablet while to follow dark is to give oneself into their darker emotions aka the Nightmare.

But I doubt this is and the “its dragon corruption/nightmare thus Sylvari are Dragon minions” are correct.

Yeah, but there is one point working agianst your statement: If a Sylvari has fallen for the nightmare, they can’t escape anymore. The only other “corruption” I know you are unable to cast off on your own is the dragon corruption. We would know more if we could take a corrupted Sylvari to the saltar of Arah P3.

draxynnic.3719:

It’s certainly possible that the sylvari were created by the Forgotten, possibly with some collaboration by the other races, as an additional soldier race alongside the dwarves (if they were also artificial, and between the dwarven creation legend and the effect of the Rite, I’m leaning in that direction). For whatever reason, though – maybe they were created afterwards, maybe they just didn’t mature in time – the sylvari didn’t take part in the last awakening.

Unless the sylvari actually DID exist during the last rising, under a different name: the Wardens of the Echovald Forest. The Wardens are, after all, a race of humanoid plant warriors that are mysteriously immune to corruptive abilities, and are led by an enigmatic tree spirit with immense magical power. Interestingly enough, Urgoz also speaks of foreseeing the future and seeing the potential destinies of individuals, just like a certain other tree spirit.

Regarding the sylvari being human-shaped because the tree was planted on human graves, while I know that was dev-confirmed, I can’t help but think it’s been retconned anyway. How do you explain Malyck? Was his tree, way off to the west outside of the region inhabited by humans, also conveniently planted on a human grave? Why would two separate Pale Trees come up with the EXACT same interpretation of what a human looks like, and choose that specific form for the body plan of their children? It just doesn’t make any sense.

I’d be hesitant to say the orb is connected to the DSD until we learn more about it – the water aspect of it may simply be coincidence. It could, for instance, have been something that the forgotten created to block Zhaitan, and Zhaitan’s rise was in fact triggered by krait looting it from the ruins of Orr in the first place.

In any respect, it’s not a case of mixing draconic energy into creatures to create a race that is protected against corruption. It’s an artifact that fights against corruption.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

So let’s recap:
The nightmare is a part of the dream, it’s being established with the creation of the dream itself and it’s influencing the sylvari all the time. Conclusion: The very exsistance of the sylvari is the reason for the nighmare to exsist. It’s always been a part of them.
So, if the ritual is able to free a sylvari from the nightmare, that shows that the nightmare is a dragonmade obsession, like the brand is from Kralkatorrik. It also shows that the sylvari are dragonminions, since the nightmare and the dream are connected, if not even the same.

Everything you have said after ‘conclusion’ is flawed. We’ve seen that animals and objects can also be connected to the Dream, so it isn’t specific to sylvari or even plants in general. Thus, the Nightmare does not have to be aimed at the sylvari in particular. If the Nightmare is draconic in origin, it could easily just have been cast as a broad net into a magical realm to see what it can catch, rather than specifically aimed at the sylvari.

Furthermore, even if the Nightmare is specifically aimed at the sylvari by a dragon, it does not mean that they had any prior connection to that or any other dragon – just that the dragon, or one of its champions, recognised that corrupting the Dream might be a way to get at the sylvari.

draxynnic.3719:

I’d be hesitant to say the orb is connected to the DSD until we learn more about it – the water aspect of it may simply be coincidence. It could, for instance, have been something that the forgotten created to block Zhaitan, and Zhaitan’s rise was in fact triggered by krait looting it from the ruins of Orr in the first place.

In any respect, it’s not a case of mixing draconic energy into creatures to create a race that is protected against corruption. It’s an artifact that fights against corruption.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

So let’s recap:
The nightmare is a part of the dream, it’s being established with the creation of the dream itself and it’s influencing the sylvari all the time. Conclusion: The very exsistance of the sylvari is the reason for the nighmare to exsist. It’s always been a part of them.
So, if the ritual is able to free a sylvari from the nightmare, that shows that the nightmare is a dragonmade obsession, like the brand is from Kralkatorrik. It also shows that the sylvari are dragonminions, since the nightmare and the dream are connected, if not even the same.

Everything you have said after ‘conclusion’ is flawed. We’ve seen that animals and objects can also be connected to the Dream, so it isn’t specific to sylvari or even plants in general. Thus, the Nightmare does not have to be aimed at the sylvari in particular. If the Nightmare is draconic in origin, it could easily just have been cast as a broad net into a magical realm to see what it can catch, rather than specifically aimed at the sylvari.

Furthermore, even if the Nightmare is specifically aimed at the sylvari by a dragon, it does not mean that they had any prior connection to that or any other dragon – just that the dragon, or one of its champions, recognised that corrupting the Dream might be a way to get at the sylvari.

The nightmare is a part of the Dream, the Pale Tree itself says that. Furthermore, only the Sylvari and the Tree have a connection to the Dream, yet both are not the source of the Dream. The Dream isn’t bound to a certain area, it behaves like a mind.
On top of that, the Sylvari can’t choose to be not connected to the Dream, only a strong mind can set itself free from the dream. This all are evidences for that the Sylvari are meant to be influenced by the Dream, such as dragon minions are influenced by their dragons.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Furthermore, only the Sylvari and the Tree have a connection to the Dream

This part is factually incorrect, and with that, your entire set of claims collapse. There is at least one creature – the White Stag – that is not a sylvari and is connected to the Dream. There are also places of power that are connected to the Dream, and such places are obviously not sylvari.

draxynnic.3719:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Furthermore, only the Sylvari and the Tree have a connection to the Dream

This part is factually incorrect, and with that, your entire set of claims collapse. There is at least one creature – the White Stag – that is not a sylvari and is connected to the Dream. There are also places of power that are connected to the Dream, and such places are obviously not sylvari.

That is one creature. And we know nothing about this creature. All we do know is that it’s been fed by the hope of the Sylvari. It’s a manifestation of the faith and joy of the sylvari race. So it’s probably from the Dream and would’ve never existed without the Dream or the Sylvari.
It’s no reason, it’s a result of the Dream.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

That is more of a vision, then an actual location you can go to. When I say metaphysical locations I mean places like the Mists and the afterlife – places for souls and the like, as souls and such typically are considered “metaphysical” in fantasy settings. The Dreams of Dreams is somewhere people can, with their own actual bodies, go to (see A Light in the Darkness) – but people’s minds, like with Kralkatorrik, is not; Snaff’s body never actually left the golem.

I don’t know that this is actually true. Sure, in A Light in the Darkness, we go through a portal, but we appear to be running around in a physical location in the sylvari opening mission as well, where we kill monsters and collect loot – but presumably, the sylvari’s physical body is sitting in a pod in the Pale Tree somewhere in final states of development (actually, this is definitely the case, as we see in the sylvari opening cinematic). And in What Scarlet Saw, Scarlet is physically exploring her mind and the Dream, but still very much fixed in place in Omadd’s Isolation Module (she even wonders at one point whether she’d be able to see herself in Rata Sum).

Again, I think you’re trying to construct concrete rules for parts of the lore that were very deliberately vaguely defined, and I don’t think it’s going to work.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tamias.7059:

Besides, from what Vorpp says in A Study in Scarlet, specifically “I surmise she was directly exposed to a part of her own psyche that had been carefully walled off. Perhaps for her own protection? We’d need to do far more extensive study of the sylvari Dream before I could draw any more-detailed conclusions.”, it seems that the Dream really is something that is “built-in” to the sylvari (as for the White Stag, well, Caithe describes it as “a manifestation of the faith and joy of our race”, so although it exists both in reality and the Dream, it is still very much related to the sylvari).

I see nothing surmising that the Dream is built-in to the sylvari in Vorpp’s dialogue.

Scarlet went into a Isolation Module where she was completely cut off from the world, and Vorpp was talking about the sylvari Dream. If the Dream was something external to the sylvari, then it would have been impossible to experience it inside the Isolation Module, and commune with the Pale Tree.

draxynnic.3719:

Everything you have said after ‘conclusion’ is flawed. We’ve seen that animals and objects can also be connected to the Dream, so it isn’t specific to sylvari or even plants in general. Thus, the Nightmare does not have to be aimed at the sylvari in particular. If the Nightmare is draconic in origin, it could easily just have been cast as a broad net into a magical realm to see what it can catch, rather than specifically aimed at the sylvari.

Konig has said as much before – that the White Stag, an animal that is not related to the sylvari, but still experiences the Dream, is evidence that the Dream extrinsic to the sylvari. I believe this is a commonly parroted misconception – actually we know barely anything about the White Stag, certainly not enough definitively state that it has nothing to do with the sylvari. Caithe even says, it is “a manifestation of the faith and joy of our race”.

If you’re going to link, link to the primary source (or, rather, the direct quotation of the primary source). The general wiki articles are riddled with people’s interpretations being posted as fact.

Speaking of which, an example of a landmark that is linked to the Dream.

draxynnic.3719:

If you’re going to link, link to the primary source (or, rather, the direct quotation of the primary source). The general wiki articles are riddled with people’s interpretations being posted as fact.

Speaking of which, an example of a landmark that is linked to the Dream.

And that proves …?
I can think of my house. Do I have created my house a second time somewhere physically? No, I haven’t.
There is no problem if the Dream is copying Tyria 1:1, because that doesn’t have to mean that’s physically real.

Except that the waterfall itself is magical, hence why it’s a skill point. It doesn’t just have a connection to the Dream because lots of sylvari have seen it (in fact, given the congregation of dangerous, magical creatures nearby, most probably haven’t) – there is something different about those waters.

But to take this in a different direction, the other flaw in your conclusions – the assumption that if the dragon is corrupting the dream through the nightmare, it must be doing so specifically because it’s after the sylvari, and that it’s targeting the sylvari specifically because they’re dragon minions connected to that dragon that have gained their independence. As opposed to the much simpler explanation that the dragon has sensed the magic of the Dream and wants it for itself.

We also have an example of a dragon (Jormag, to be precise) looking to access and corrupt the Mists. The Spirits of the Wild dwell partly in the Mists, and the gods had their realms there. Is Jormag attacking the Mists specifically because it’s after the spirits and the gods? Does it then follow that the spirits and gods are also dragon minions? Does this, by extension, mean that norn and humans are dragon minions?

Tamias.7059:

I don’t know that this is actually true. Sure, in A Light in the Darkness, we go through a portal, but we appear to be running around in a physical location in the sylvari opening mission as well, where we kill monsters and collect loot – but presumably, the sylvari’s physical body is sitting in a pod in the Pale Tree somewhere in final states of development (actually, this is definitely the case, as we see in the sylvari opening cinematic). And in What Scarlet Saw, Scarlet is physically exploring her mind and the Dream, but still very much fixed in place in Omadd’s Isolation Module (she even wonders at one point whether she’d be able to see herself in Rata Sum).

Again, I think you’re trying to construct concrete rules for parts of the lore that were very deliberately vaguely defined, and I don’t think it’s going to work.

There’s a very real difference between a mental representation of a body, and the body itself – just as there’s a difference between a ghost which looks like a body, and the body itself.

If Anet didn’t want to make A Light in the Darkness to seem like the physical body is moving, then they could easily have shown this – they didn’t need the portal, they could have done a post-processing effect and dialogue to show it wasn’t physical, and they could have put a ghost effect on the PC entering the Orrian area.

As shown by the risen in A Light in the Darkness, you don’t need a physical body to be in the Dream, but all indications show that A Light in the Darkness is entering with the physical body. Furthermore, if you talk to Trahearne and the Pale Tree before entering the Dream, they mention that we’ll be entering the Dream (or “enter the vision”), not simply, say, watching it or connecting or whathaveyou.

On an aside – there’s no loot in the sylvari tutorial.

Tamias.7059:

Scarlet went into a Isolation Module where she was completely cut off from the world, and Vorpp was talking about the sylvari Dream. If the Dream was something external to the sylvari, then it would have been impossible to experience it inside the Isolation Module, and commune with the Pale Tree.

Nothing says Scarlet was experiencing the Dream, not even Vorpp’s mention of the Dream on the topic. And I would disagree with that conclusion anyways because she went into her mental consciousness and as I hope we all know, the Dream is indeed hold a mental connection thus would be accessible mentally.

Tamias.7059:

Konig has said as much before – that the White Stag, an animal that is not related to the sylvari, but still experiences the Dream, is evidence that the Dream extrinsic to the sylvari. I believe this is a commonly parroted misconception – actually we know barely anything about the White Stag, certainly not enough definitively state that it has nothing to do with the sylvari. Caithe even says, it is “a manifestation of the faith and joy of our race”.

The full line is “The white stag is a creature of the Dream, symbolizing hope. It is a manifestation of the faith and joy of our race.” – this seems no different than say, the American Flag, which is a symbol, and in turn a manifestation of what it represents, for Americans. Or similarly, how the moon is treated as a symbol for people, and as a symbol is a manifestation of what the symbol’s for. That’s all Caithe is saying – it’s treated as a symbol for the sylvari race. Doesn’t mean it’s related to them or is made by them or whatnot.

draxynnic.3719:

But to take this in a different direction, the other flaw in your conclusions – the assumption that if the dragon is corrupting the dream through the nightmare, it must be doing so specifically because it’s after the sylvari, and that it’s targeting the sylvari specifically because they’re dragon minions connected to that dragon that have gained their independence. As opposed to the much simpler explanation that the dragon has sensed the magic of the Dream and wants it for itself.

The nightmare is a part of the dream, it was created with the dream and represents, among other things, the bad emotions. So why isn’t it just the bad feelings who’ve created the nightmare? Because once a Sylvari fell for the nightmare, he can’t escape.
This is the very difference between emotions and corruption. Emotions can be changed, corruption can’t. So the nightmare, the corruption was always a part of the dream and it’s neither fed by the Sylvari or the Pale Tree. Chances are, that’s Mordremoth. And come on, Elder Dragon made of wood and a new race only few years old also made of wood? Too much accordance.

We also have an example of a dragon (Jormag, to be precise) looking to access and corrupt the Mists. The Spirits of the Wild dwell partly in the Mists, and the gods had their realms there. Is Jormag attacking the Mists specifically because it’s after the spirits and the gods? Does it then follow that the spirits and gods are also dragon minions? Does this, by extension, mean that norn and humans are dragon minions?

If you mean the snow fractal as evidence of Jormag trying to infiltrate the mists, that’s pretty much a flawed assumption. Do the charr try to take over the mists because we can fight with them? Or the dredge, or the grawl? Does Scarlet try to infiltrate the mists because we can fight against her minions? No, it’s just a random place in a (for the most part) unknown time. More like memories we have to fight through than real happenings.

No, I don’t mean the fractal. I mean one of the norn personal storylines (growing from the Defend the Mists biography choice, starting here)

On the other, you’re making a lot of assumptions. I’d appreciate a citation on the Nightmare always having been part of the Dream (it sounds correct, but I’ve had a few things that sounded correct that turned out not to have been actually said on deeper investigation).

Even then, though, any such citation is most probably the observation of the sylvari. If the Dream is larger than the sylvari, then when it first came into existence it could have been without the Nightmare, even if only briefly. Or the Dream could always have had light and dark, but the dragon found it was able to more easily touch the Dream through its dark side, the dark side being closer to its own nature.

It still makes no sense for the Nightmare court to have been founded to fight the Dragons (Caderyn’s own words) if they were dragon minions.

And, as others have pointed out, Dragons don’t just corrupt one species. Jormag doesn’t just corrupt Norn, he also corrupts elementals and Quaggan. Why would they nightmare be specific to Sylvari if it was dragon corruption?

The Nightmare Court seeing the Elder Dragons as threats still does put a small monkey wrench into the “Nightmare is Mordremoth’s influence” – but since we don’t know how the Elder Dragons view each other (we just know that they’re not working together), it’s not an impossibility just because of that – because we don’t know how the Nightmare Court would view Mordremoth either. Now that he’s awake though we should see their reaction in season 2.

The major target of the nightmare court is Ventari’s Tablet. They may fight along with Mordremoth to achieve the objective, but it is unclear what the prior targets of the dragon are (Zhaitan had a huge army, but acted partially random. Hard to spot dragon intentions beside magic consuming.).

nightmare = reality – dream (The nightmare is everywhere while the dream has concentration points like the Pale Tree and maybe more locations.)

Wanderer.3248:

It still makes no sense for the Nightmare court to have been founded to fight the Dragons (Caderyn’s own words) if they were dragon minions.

And, as others have pointed out, Dragons don’t just corrupt one species. Jormag doesn’t just corrupt Norn, he also corrupts elementals and Quaggan. Why would they nightmare be specific to Sylvari if it was dragon corruption?

Because the Sylvari are the minions of Mordremoth. He could be the source of the mysterious seeds the Pale Tree has grown out of. Furthermore, Mordermoth was asleep the whole time, so he wasn’t able to actively corrupt anyone.

Nothing proves sylvari are minions of Mordremoth. Stop saying it is a fact when it is not.

And if he were the source of sylvari, then awake or asleep his minions would have remained loyal and fanatic for him, just like others (e.g., the Great Destroyer and Drakkar).

My guess about the Dwarves knowing what would happen could be due to an alliance with the Jotun…who could foretell the future from reading the stars. Maybe they were elevated by a Jotun with a hammer, which they saw as ‘the Great Dwarf’.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Nothing proves sylvari are minions of Mordremoth. Stop saying it is a fact when it is not.

And if he were the source of sylvari, then awake or asleep his minions would have remained loyal and fanatic for him, just like others (e.g., the Great Destroyer and Drakkar).

Ît’s not a fact but there are many points which count for this theory and, as far as I know, none against it.
And who said that dragonminions are fanatic for their master? They are mindcontrolled. Mordremoth is asleep, so he is unable to control anyone and the Sylvari are unaware of their origin.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

It’s not a fact but there are many points which count for this theory and, as far as I know, none against it.
And who said that dragon minions are fanatic for their master? They are mindcontrolled. Mordremoth is asleep, so he is unable to control anyone and the Sylvari are unaware of their origin.

Just curious what points point towards them being minions, cause I haven’t seen any in game or out.

The whole immune to all known dragon corruption is also a large point against them as minions, though that is just know corruption.