Guild Wars 2

At least, I now strongly believe this is the case. And I think her story is not yet finished either. There are a lot of still unanswered questions, and a lot of things continuously stated as fact though… it isn’t. Anyways, I’ll break this down into four topics: The Entity, The Dragon(s) Involvement, Scarlet’s Probes, and Caithe’s Secret. In said order.

The Entity’s Identity is Still Unknown
A lot – almost everyone – have been outright believing that the Entity has been Mordremoth. Or Mordremoth’s champions. People seem hellbent on making the sylvari-Mordremoth connection that they took the waking of Mordremoth to mean that he, or his champion, was what was talking to Scarlet’s mind.

But we have no evidence for this. Yes, Scarlet woke Mordy up, but nothing really indicates that Mordy or its champions was what talked to Scarlet. We know, quite literally, nothing about the entity except that:

1. It first entered Scarlet’s mind when she entered Omadd’s Isolation Module (see: A Study in Scarlet).
2. It only talked to her in her dreams at first, and grew stronger over time (see: Scarlet Briar’s Journal). But overtime talked to her when awake (see: A Study in Scarlet and battle on the Breachmaker).
3. Was continuously warring for Scarlet’s mind (see current Pale Tree dialogue).
4. And finally, it showed her images of death, destruction, and destiny.

None of this points to the sole case of “Elder Dragon” or “dragon champion”. In fact, I would argue that A Study in Scarlet reduces the chances of this. Here’s why:

Scarlet Briar: Ever since I came out of Omadd’s machine, you’ve been taking credit for my ideas. They are mine! Not yours.

Right, so, what are “her ideas” that the entity was taking credit for? Every single thing Scarlet did required modern technology. How could something that is still sleeping and has been sleeping for 10,000 years know about modern things? It would be like someone who’s been in a coma since 1980 knowing how to work a smartphone and knowing about 911 upon waking. It just doesn’t happen.

On the flip side, they really are her ideas and the entity is actually trying to take credit for it – as a mind game. But that doesn’t fit Elder Dragon corruption effects of any other Elder Dragon. And while each dragon may corrupt differently, it doesn’t match the shared persona of taking things and destroying what cannot be taken (as opposed to taking credit for things not theirs). The Elder Dragons are too large, too high above the wee little ants called “Tyrians” to bother taking credit for their “ideas”.

So either the entity is an individual who was awake to know modern events – such as dredge sonic technology, or the inquest which known to be fairly modern (within 200 years), and other such things. Or we got the first Elder Dragon who apparently breaks the mold of all other Elder Dragons.

Mordremoth was not the only Elder Dragon Scarlet intended to alter
This point comes solely from the Aftermath instance, you can find all dialogue here.

Main parts are:

Kasmeer: Is that what you think it was? A dragon? Oh, it would make so much sense to think that Scarlet was messing with the dragons.
Player: I believe that was her plan all along. Her drill caused one of them to stir.
Kasmeer: Yes, we heard it too. Which one do you think it was? Primordus? Kralkatorrik? Jormag? Do you think one is sleeping beneath Lion’s Arch?
Player: No. I think Scarlet disturbed the ley lines, knowing they feed the dragons.
Kasmeer: I don’t understand.
Player: The dragons consume magic. The ley lines are currents in an ocean of magic.
Kasmeer: And Scarlet threw a giant rock in that pool, sending ripples out to the dragon. It makes sense. You’re brilliant.

Taimi: I told you so. I told you all. I knew Scarlet had grand plans, but did you listen? No. And now, there’s at least one dragon, maybe more, who want to destroy all of Tyria.

Taimi: Well, you’ve got it right. Scarlet wanted to touch the dragons, and she succeeded. Quite impressive when you think about it.

In the instance, Taimi and the PC are the only ones who know what Scarlet’s actions did. The rest were clueless until they were informed. And both Taimi and the PC mention dragon*s* – plural.

Taking this in mind, take a step back to Battle for Lion’s Arch – the Scarlet’s End instance. If you go to the control panels instead of leaving, you can find 2 maps, one of which is over the Energy Probe Map which states said maps are for Scarlet’s Energy Probes – the ones looking for ley lines. The maps, seen here and here, have three interesting factors to them:

1. They’re very transparent. Hard to make out. Vastly different than the older one in Scarlet’s Lair.
2. They’re new. ArenaNet wouldn’t make new stuff without purpose – even if the purpose was a red herring.
3. Lastly, while one focuses with Lion’s Arch in the center, the other focuses on the Far Shiverpeaks in the center – in unexplorable areas, and indicate new probes. Interestingly, in roughly the same central location as LA… is the Eye of the North.

And Jormag’s in the north… and there’s ley line probes in the north. And ley lines are believed by the PC based on recent findings and original Personal Story findings to feed dragons… Which brings us to topic three:

Scarlet’s Ultimate Goal Wasn’t Lion’s Arch
Rather, I think Scarlet was intending to repeat her action of disrupting the ley lines again later, but she was prepared for the possibility that the greatest city of Tyria would be capable of stopping her. After all, the heroes of Tyria have managed to foil her armies individually as well as her Marionette which seems to have been – according to Rox’s observations – intended to cull the herd of would-be heroes.

Taking a step back and adding to the above: In her lair, we also see this map which marks the three Orders. But we never see anything done to the Orders HQs. Why? Did she change her mind? Were the X’s just marking her guesses to where the ley line intersection would be? Or perhaps they were her next target. Or maybe a case of “biggest threats.”

We never found out Scarlet’s fascination with Caithe
Not just the secret, but the Spinal Blades blueprint had a quote from Scarlet to Caithe:

The line is: “Caithe, someday you’ll see, Tyria needs me. -Scarlet”

Why add this? If they were going to drop Scarlet’s story, then there’d be no need to further the mystery and this is all it does. There are enough plotholes and loose ends to keep people wondering, so it’s not ArenaNet’s love of seeing fans speculate alone that this is added as.

My personal theory on this unanswered question
I think Scarlet was strengthening the Elder Dragons for unknown reasons and began with Mordremoth because it was asleep still. And she would have the answer to solve the crises she made, thus Tyria will “need” her. And to be clear – I don’t think Scarlet’s trying to be a good guy here, but trying to force the world to accept her as being as great as she thinks she is. This is hinted to by Canach’s dialogue – in Edge of the Mists he says:

Canach: Yes, Scarlet and I share a certain…fixation on self-determination, but we are not natural allies.
Canach: I seek to define my role in this world. She seeks to tear this world down and use the rubble as her throne.

Furthermore, in Aftermath he now says:

Canach: Speaking from experience, no one goes to these lengths without thinking they are doing some good. It raises a troubling question.
Player: Which is?
Canach: What good did she think she was doing?

By allowing the Elder Dragons to run rampant, the world would be greatly damaged. From there, she can “ride in to save the day” and then rebuild the world to her liking – “improving it” as she would see it. This is what I think her ultimate goal was when putting all the pieces together rather than just the obvious ones. But there’s more:

I think the entity put her up to strengthening the Elder Dragons, but is not of the Elder Dragons or their champions itself, but instead intend to use the Elder Dragons for their own purpose.

Another piece of evidence for this comes from the Flame and Frost epilogue:

Veteran Flame Legion Prisoner: “You could never understand because you and your people are destined to die in our fires. Your time is coming. You should prepare yourselves.”
Player: What are you talking about?
Veteran Flame Legion Prisoner: “Nothing. Nevermind. Go fight your dragons. If you don’t, they’ll annihilate you.”
Player: They’ll annihilate you too.
Veteran Flame Legion Prisoner: “I doubt it. We’ll be here long after the dragons have swallowed you and yours.”

This is left unanswered. Why would the Flame Legion who’s allied with Scarlet think that they’d be saved from the Elder Dragons unless Scarlet had some means of convincing them that she could protect them from the Dragons?

Scarlet would likely have gained this from the “entity”. So, who would the entity be that it would know how to escape the Elder Dragons’ wrath?

I think it’s one of two possibilities. First possibility is Lazarus, the second is the Inquest.

Lazarus for two reasons: 1) The mursaat had fled the world to let the Elder Dragons ravage it before, wiping out an entire race (almost) as they did so (the Seers), and when they returned they returned portraying themselves as the Unseen Ones – as gods. They returned intending to rule, it seems. It would not be unlikely for this to happen again. 2) The Aftermath instance in The Dead End formally introduces Belinda Delaqua, whom hints at the Season 2’s direction (IMO): west, dealing with black market dealers who base themselves in Brisban Wildlands. Sounds familiar? Fort Vandal is run by bandits, and bandits are run by the White Mantle. And who runs the White Mantle? Mursaat. Thus I suspect Season 2 will be returning to GW1 lore in the form of Lazarus, and may be tied into Season 1 via being the entity.

The alternative, the Inquest, has a bit more reasoning to it.

Firstly, Omadd got Scarlet (aka Ceara) into the colleges for the asura to study her, and even kept working with her after she was a member of the Inquest and a known criminal of Rata Sum (breaking into the archives and being exiled from Rata Sum and all that jazz). It may be possible that he was Inquest and that he lied about the purpose of the machine.

More strongly though, the Inquest have stated to intend to follow the mursaat’s old footsteps in the Arah explorable mursaat path:

Operative Brie: We’ve only just begun. With this knowledge, we can become like the mursaat themselves!
Operative Brie: We will leave this world to the Dragons, and then return and rule once they sleep again.

They were foiled then, but perhaps not fully? Furthermore, they’re known to be studying the Elder Dragons (Infinite Coil Reactor and Crucible of Eternity), and are known to have let the kitten hit the fan just to study the effects (Thaumanova Reactor – as explained in A Study in Scarlet instance). Directing a bunch of magic to the Elder Dragons just to learn what happens when such occurs would not be beyond the scope of their antics. And it would explain why they continued to assist Scarlet after they tossed her out.

Others’ thoughts?

i’ll just say this: reading your theories (or counter-theories) to disprove something always makes you sound like the most obnoxious of prosecutors on an ace attorney game. just when everyone is happy and thinking “welp, it’s pretty settled. it’s not of ANet to make things overly convoluted anyway, so it’s pretty obvious what happened”, you show up and go:

“EVIDENCE IS EVERYTHING!”

@konig: You ask how something that’s been sleeping for 10,000 years know about modern technology. Well, first, whenever I enter the straits of desolation, I can’t help but notice that the concept art has a certain modernness to it. Second, we know that the elder races had knowledge that has since been lost to us. The Jotun, make that clear. Also, while elder dragons have been sleeping, we know for a fact that their champions haven’t been. Glint has been awake, it’s not unreasonable that others have also. The story of Svanir also tells us that major minions of elder dragons can act on their behalf as Drakkar did in corrupting Svanir. Also, anything that has the ability to take the mind of a victim, would easily be able to gain the victims knowledge. So knowledge of modern technology doesn’t seem unreasonable.

Now on to your statement that the Mursaat are in charge of the bandits. What do you cite as evidence. The current evidence points to Caudecus as being in charge of the bandits. Is there any evidence that the mursaat still exist? Not that I’m aware of. The white mantle insignia can easily be explained by the mursaatless white mantle becoming bandits 250 years ago to survive and the insignia being use out of tradition.

I think the triad works against the theory that the inquest are in charge of the bandits. If the inquest were in charge of the bandits, the a triad wouldn’t be necessary. Only the NC and the inquest would need to be represented.

There is no evidence of the Mursaat existing on Tyria for 250 years.

One thing that strikes me as odd about the inquest though is that they allowed Scarlet anywhere near their thaumanova reactor. They knew her as both Ceara and Scarlet, and they had to know what kind of trouble she would bring. I’ve not seen anything that could justify that kind of risk.

Let me see If I’ve got the right Konig. You’re telling us that there’s no way the elder dragons would know about modern technology, and then in the very next post you tell us that the inquest are searching for lost Mursaat knowledge.

Your story is fun, but it doesn’t hold up. Try again when you have a story that makes sense.

I do enjoy the theorycrafting, and I do agree that Scarlet’s story has too many loose ends to end just yet. I guess Anet really wishes for us to stay tuned for season two.

I’m personally hoping for Lazarus’ involvement in this whole thing, but that could be just the Mursaat fan in me talking. Though, I’ve been wondering back about Vorpp’s thoughts about Ceara when she entered the machine…

Vorpp: Ceara encountered something that literally broke her mind, but the only things in there were things she brought.

That statement has always been particular. Minus the whole Sylvari=Mordy’s minions theory, it hasn’t really ever fitted into the other theories pertaining to the Entity all that well. With the possible upcoming involvement of the bandits, which alone will bring about more White Mantle and Larzarus theories, I’ve been wondering…

…Is it possible that Ceara was somehow carrying an Aspect of Lazarus around?

Vorpp said that a part of her psyche was possibly walled off for her own protection (by the Pale Tree?). Once her “firewall” was down, the Aspect could have been fighting and influencing her for dominance ever since.

Weird off the wall theories are always going to be weird though. Hopefully season two hurries up, because I’m fascinated now.

DarcShriek.5829:

Let me see If I’ve got the right Konig. You’re telling us that there’s no way the elder dragons would know about modern technology, and then in the very next post you tell us that the inquest are searching for lost Mursaat knowledge.

Your story is fun, but it doesn’t hold up. Try again when you have a story that makes sense.

The Inquest were searching for the Mursaat’s knowledge about phasing and how they fled into the Mists. Magical knowledge, not technological. If the Elder Dragons somehow knew that knowledge, the Mursaat would have been wiped out before GW1, because the only way the other races survived was because Glint was shielding them.

Other than that, the only Elder Dragon to show interest in invading the Mists is Jormag, but even it doesn’t have the knowledge of how. The only way it was shown to have gotten access to the Mists, was having the Sons of Svanir trapping the soul of the Wolf Havroun, causing the Mists portal to stay open waiting for him to cross. If it had that knowledge of how, it could have simply had the Sons open the portal, and not have to rely on outside sources.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Scarlet Briar: Ever since I came out of Omadd’s machine, you’ve been taking credit for my ideas. They are mine! Not yours.

I think this was simply a case of Scarlet’s split personality. As you may have noticed, her voice changed from our initial encounter with her (later taters!) to the Marionette test, where she is suddenly way more serious. I think she was arguing with herself. And in that respect, it would make sense.

One thing that I found very odd, was how the npc’s basically all confirm how Scarlet wanted to awaken an elder dragon… but they don’t explain why. Why would you want to do that? It doesn’t sound logical, even for someone as crazy as Scarlet, to want to awaken an Elder Dragon. That is why I’m having difficulty with accepting that was her goal all along.

BrunoBRS.5178:

i’ll just say this: reading your theories (or counter-theories) to disprove something always makes you sound like the most obnoxious of prosecutors on an ace attorney game. just when everyone is happy and thinking “welp, it’s pretty settled. it’s not of ANet to make things overly convoluted anyway, so it’s pretty obvious what happened”, you show up and go:

“EVIDENCE IS EVERYTHING!”

That’s what makes a good prosecutor. Evidence is indeed everything, and he’s following the trail. I’m interested where it leads. I’m cautious however, to draw the link to things I would like to be true. Regarding the Mursaat, I think this speculation might be lightly tainted by wishful thinking. But he is right that it doesn’t all add up.

It’s something cheesy to say now – but the mursaat have been on my mind too.

As stated by Vorrp in “A Study in Scarlet”:
Vorpp: This is Synergetics Headmaster Omadd’s isolation module. A sylvari named Ceara went in; Scarlet came out. Vorpp: I reverse-engineered an image of Ceara’s aura patterns before and after. The schism is pronounced and dramatic.

This is what reminded me of the quest chain in Eye of the North including the facets and Lazarus.

I’ve been messing around with an anagram-generator already for the terms Ceara Scarlet and Briar just to see if there might be any hint – but lacking the time I couldn’t fine-tune the generator to get good results.

Mursaat would be cool and maybe they’re already tied to the inquest in some way yet to be revealed.
Would also do with the flame legion somehow as the titan-mursaat-destroyer-thing from GW1 and they were worshipping whoever had power.

Well, for one we don’t know what ideas were taken credit for and on which level we’re talking. If it’s rather general ideas like “identify leyline-network, amass an army, grow a giant weed-tower of doom, wipe out tyrians” and “breach a leyline intersection” it’d still make sense for Scarlet to argue that these ideas were hers, not Mord’s.
Of course it’d make less sense if the ideas were described more in detail, like build a giant drill, use sonic technology to locate leylines, etc.
But we don’t know so…yeah.

But well, here’s what I was putting together: Scarlet’s original plan was to have the Elder dragons rampage and have Tyria go up in flames and then reshape it, pretty much like you said Konig.

But the entity was Mordremoth. While Scarlet tried to use him as part of her plan, he has been trying to make her part of his plan. As the Pale Tree says, she was losing the battle for her mind.
Scarlet originally had an idea of how to defeat or bypass the Elder dragons (possibly recreating Thaumanova using a dragon itself perhaps?) after they’re done with their chaos so waking up Mordy was part of her plan anyway and that’s why the MA-Flame legion followed her. But then Mordremoth leads her to think that she’s doing exactly what he wants her to and while she’s struggling to do her own thing, she ends up doing exactly his bidding. So by the end she’s become Mordremoth’s marionette.

As for whether Scarlet intended one dragon or more – seems like it was supposed to lead to Mordremoth (see: the datamined reddit stuff floating around) but then Anet took a turn with the story midway and changed it and now it could lead to Mordremoth and and whatever other dragon they want to, tho the thumpers in the north could be a hint to Jormag.

So… at least that’s what I’m trying to make out of the LS and it still doesn’t seem right. While I’m glad that the ending was made less cheesy, on the other hand it shows that this might not be the first time things were rewritten in the middle of it. To be frank, the LS has become a fortnightly-“I hope next update explains the plotholes”.
There’s way too many loose leads and if anything, all the speculations I read and hear feel like desperate attempts at making sense out of the plot with hopes and wishes strung in and that’s kinda saddening in itself.
The plot really doesn’t seem over yet and there’s still ways for them to retroactively add to season 1 in season 2 and I really hope they do that.

A dragon knows everything its minions know. The dream is a shared consciousness between all sylvari. While it’s not necessarily a hive mind to control all sylvari, information is shared in someway that’s not quite clear yet.

The dream behaves kind of like what we already know of dragons.

Knowing what we know about Scarlet’s plans, she wanted to be free from her destiny, whatever that was, but didnt agree with either side, the pale tree or the nightmare court. Why or how would a dragon do that in the first place, even if the pale tree was the dragon’s champion and the dragon reclaimed it? The last thing a dragon would do is free its minions.

So the voice in Scarlet’s head must’ve been telling her to wake the dragon, because waking the dragon seems to be the complete opposite of her original goal.

Then theres the words of the pale tree in the short story. “By attempting to understand the forces that make us, you will unleash them.” Maybe the pale tree was talking about the sylvari when it said us, and then Scarlet ended up unleashing a dragon. The pale tree cut off Scarlet from the dream to avoid Scarlet directly corrupting the dream. I don’t see anything else the words could mean at this point.

Sylvari are most defiantly originally dragon minions, the pale tree happened to grow without the influence of the dragon and once the dragon woke up, it had no more need of Scarlet. Who knows maybe that was Scarlet’s dream all along, she dreamt of waking a dragon and wanted to avoid that fate but by trying to avoid her fate she made it happen. Remember we know that the pale tree doesnt control the dream, it just oversees the dream.

The real curious thing here is that asura gates, which are based on dragon energy, can cut a sylvari off from the dream, just for a second or two, but we know trying to corrupt a sylvari just kills them. So synthesized dragon energy can disrupt the dream, and actual dragon energy kills the sylvari, while that doesnt prove or disprove the sylvari being dragon minions, it’s a curiosity and will probably end up being a plot point at some point.

>Right, so, what are “her ideas” that the entity was taking credit for? Every single thing Scarlet did required modern technology. How could something that is still sleeping and has been sleeping for 10,000 years know about modern things? It would be like someone who’s been in a coma since 1980 knowing how to work a smartphone and knowing about 911 upon waking. It just doesn’t happen.

Dragon’s minions are it’s organs: hands, eyes, mouth, fingers, whatever you can imagine. And what it’s minion knows, knows the Dragon.

>This is left unanswered. Why would the Flame Legion who’s allied with Scarlet think that they’d be saved from the Elder Dragons unless Scarlet had some means of convincing them that she could protect them from the Dragons?

Scarlet could have promised them protection when Dragon comes, power to crush their enemies and et cetera.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Right, so, what are “her ideas” that the entity was taking credit for? Every single thing Scarlet did required modern technology. How could something that is still sleeping and has been sleeping for 10,000 years know about modern things? It would be like someone who’s been in a coma since 1980 knowing how to work a smartphone and knowing about 911 upon waking. It just doesn’t happen.

This argument really doesn’t fly. I agree with the other posters. The entity was in her mind, and thus shared her knowledge and ideas.

Erukk.1408:

…Is it possible that Ceara was somehow carrying an Aspect of Lazarus around?

Not just Ceara.

If we separate the Dream from the Pale Tree, that it is the Dream that specifically protects the sylvari from draconic corruption, and that the Dream inhabits a metaphysical location not unlike the Mists, its entirely possible that the Dream is a leftover from the ancient races fight in the last dragon war that said races may still have access to. Or perhaps even hiding in, whispering dark secrets to those sylvari willing to listen.

And if a certain capricious sylvari knocks down all of the protective walls the Dream and/or the Pale Tree set up between her and whoever else is in the Dream…

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I think it’s one of two possibilities. First possibility is Lazarus, the second is the Inquest.

Well, if the bandits are outed as White Mantle stooges, we take the Nightmare as Lazarus’s influence via the Dream, we take what you posted below, and then we take the Sinister Triad alliance, then the answer might just be ‘Why not both?’

And there’s also the point Sage made over on Reddit about Scarlet taking the third option between Dream and Nightmare, which kind of throws all of our theories for a bit of a loop.

BrunoBRS.5178:

i’ll just say this: reading your theories (or counter-theories) to disprove something always makes you sound like the most obnoxious of prosecutors on an ace attorney game. just when everyone is happy and thinking “welp, it’s pretty settled. it’s not of ANet to make things overly convoluted anyway, so it’s pretty obvious what happened”, you show up and go:

“EVIDENCE IS EVERYTHING!”

I’m not sure to take this indifferently or as an insult. So I’ll be indifferent.

My point to this though is that people have a large tendency to overlook things – even if they’re put right in our face multiple times (see Scarlet’s fascination with Caithe, and Taimi’s multiple mentions of multiple dragons).

I try to make sure people don’t overlook things and don’t assume things, because then we have folks making presumptions on lore as fact and then what happens if they turn out wrong? They’ll scream bloody murder on the lore. Like all that’s happened with Scarlet – though that’s on Anet for not keeping the lore updated on krait, as we were all led to believe that the blog post was modern but it was “before being pushed out” apparently, with no real indication of such.

DarcShriek.5829:

You ask how something that’s been sleeping for 10,000 years know about modern technology. Well, first, whenever I enter the straits of desolation, I can’t help but notice that the concept art has a certain modernness to it.

A good deal of concept art are modifications of pictures – like the Hoelbrak loading screen or the Frostgorge Sound loading screen.

Besides that, it’s concept art which has absolutely zero basis on canon lore.

DarcShriek.5829:

Second, we know that the elder races had knowledge that has since been lost to us. The Jotun, make that clear. Also, while elder dragons have been sleeping, we know for a fact that their champions haven’t been. Glint has been awake, it’s not unreasonable that others have also.

The ancient races did not have technology. They had magic. Even the jotun’s stuff seems to have been more magic than technology, and they’re the known closest to magitech there was – Giganticus Lupicus may be an exception, but even then, their technology would be nothing like modern technology.

Also, Glint rebelled – seemingly before Kralkatorrik went to sleep the last time since Kralk hunted her down immediately – so she’s far from a standard case for “leaving an dragon champion awake”.

DarcShriek.5829:

Also, anything that has the ability to take the mind of a victim, would easily be able to gain the victims knowledge. So knowledge of modern technology doesn’t seem unreasonable.

Yet no two Elder Dragon corrupt in the same fashion. And Jormag does the mental stuff.

DarcShriek.5829:

Now on to your statement that the Mursaat are in charge of the bandits. What do you cite as evidence. The current evidence points to Caudecus as being in charge of the bandits. Is there any evidence that the mursaat still exist? Not that I’m aware of. The white mantle insignia can easily be explained by the mursaatless white mantle becoming bandits 250 years ago to survive and the insignia being use out of tradition.

Lazarus was never killed, and he was presented for the purpose of a future story. As for mursaat being in charge of bandits – it’s a logical deduction. In the human orphaned storyline we learn that the White Mantle are behind (most) bandits. Yes, Caudecus is too – which is the heaviest evidence to point Caudecus as White Mantle. And again, we have a MIA mursaat, bandits in the last known place of the White Mantle (Fort Vandal is just next to Aurora Glade), and a known connection between White Mantle and bandits.

No, it is not confirmed, but that’s why it is a theory. And it certainly isn’t one without evidence like you claim.

DarcShriek.5829:

I think the triad works against the theory that the inquest are in charge of the bandits. If the inquest were in charge of the bandits, the a triad wouldn’t be necessary. Only the NC and the inquest would need to be represented.

I never said the Inquest are in charge of the bandits.

DarcShriek.5829:

There is no evidence of the Mursaat existing on Tyria for 250 years.

Simply because the last one hid. There is, however, a hint in the later personal story that they’ll return:

Scholar Yissa: “It is indeed. The Mursaat, or Unseen Ones, keep reappearing after they’ve been reported gone. Some think them gods, but I mean to establish who they truly were…or are.”

And later as if to cement this hint:

Scholar Yissa: “The mursaat, also called the Unseen Ones, were a race of powerful spellcasters. They have not been seen for centuries, and I think they are now extinct.”

DarcShriek.5829:

One thing that strikes me as odd about the inquest though is that they allowed Scarlet anywhere near their thaumanova reactor.

Indeed that is odd! Which to me implies a continued use of Scarlet, as if they had some form of influence on her.

DarcShriek.5829:

Let me see If I’ve got the right Konig. You’re telling us that there’s no way the elder dragons would know about modern technology, and then in the very next post you tell us that the inquest are searching for lost Mursaat knowledge.

Your story is fun, but it doesn’t hold up. Try again when you have a story that makes sense.

Mursaat had ancient MAGIC not technology. And it’s not the same as modern magic – let alone magitech or technology – either. The magic the inquest were searching for was the ability to phase out of existence, which we experience at the end of the dungeon path – what allowed the mursaat to escape the Elder Dragons.

Anyways, I have to go so I’ll cover the rest later.

Greetings!

Personally, I think the theory is very enjoyable, but I think a few parts of it might be pushing the envelope a bit. Pushing the envelope of possibility is a great trait of any good theory however, so I do verily commend this theory for that!

I do have a few personal thoughts on it that I would like to share!

Part 1
I’m of the opinion that Scarlet’s actions were driven by the desire to get the voice out of her head. As evidenced in her journal, she was not exactly on good terms with the entity invading her mind. Thus I personally saw her actions as a sort of attempt to escape this entity by any means possible. Driven to insanity, her reckless actions drove her to her own demise.

It is true that we’ve received no confirmation that it was Mordremoth in her head, but the reasoning that it couldn’t be Mordremoth due to technology is a bit shaky at best for me. Technology can be viewed as something completely relative, especially in the Guild Wars universe in my opinion. This is due the the Magitech nature of some races, such as the Asura or the Mursaat. What constitutes as technology and the understanding of such concepts can be very different in this world.

At the same time, there might be the possibility that Scarlet might be referring to one of her “Alliances” instead of the entity.

Part 2
For the next part of the theory, I think the main thing to take into account is that the characters that are conversing, the B-iconics specifically, are not omniscient narrators. Therefore, their thoughts on the events are personal as well, not factual. These thoughts can be as speculative as our own and fulfill the function of these characters being the vessel for the players, since our own player character lacks a voice in most of these things.

I’m actually pretty sure that the B-iconics aren’t even completely aware of Mordremoth, let alone his name. This is evidenced in their conversation in the Dead End Bar with them listing off possibilities with only the dragons in their immediate knowledge being mentioned.

Part 3 & 4
For these parts, I agree with some points actually but for different reasons.

For Lion’s Arch, I believe that this was not really Scarlet’s true intended target, but was more of a coincidental target. I believe that the area that she needed to drill into to disrupt the leylines was being currently triangulated by her Sonic Technology during the previous patches, thus the X marks around Lion’s Arch.

On Caithe, I really believe that it was strange to add a line in the Spinal Blueprint that directly addressed Caithe. It might mean more, but for now I think it was a cry for help really. I saw it as Scarlet trying to justify her actions. Plus it could also be a way for the A-Iconics to be tangentially brought back to the main story.

Final part
For your personal theory on what the possible greater entity might be, I’m not exactly sure what solid evidence points to there being an even great entity behind Scarlet’s actions or taking credit for them really.

If anything, I think Scarlet’s actions were of her own accord to break free of the voices, thus her displeasure at the voice taking credit for them.

BUT, on your first postulation! I found part of it to be of interest!

The Aftermath instance in The Dead End formally introduces Belinda Delaqua, whom hints at the Season 2’s direction (IMO): west, dealing with black market dealers who base themselves in Brisban Wildlands. Sounds familiar? Fort Vandal is run by bandits, and bandits are run by the White Mantle. And who runs the White Mantle? Mursaat. Thus I suspect Season 2 will be returning to GW1 lore in the form of Lazarus, and may be tied into Season 1 via being the entity.

We have actually also been discussing the possibility of Guild Wars 1 lore to be brought up in the near future! If anything, we really like this intersection between our theories! We actually also brought up similar reasons as to why the White Mantle might suddenly make an appearance.

Though our main points differ, I bear great interest in seeing old enemies for Living World Season 2.

We brought up this theory a few weeks ago if you’d be interested! We’ve actually been awaiting your thoughts on it since the community seem to be really into your opinions! People have brought up your name a lot as a sort of paragon of lore.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/The-White-Mantle-Return-A-THEORY-SPOILERS

In closing, I’d like to say thank you for the enjoyable read and I hope for more active discussion in the community sparked by threads such as yours!

More power to you,
Xenophanes

So basically Scarlet and her alliances could be like the Illusive Man and Cerberus from Mass Effect.

Think he is doing something good, wanting to control the reapers (in this case elder dragons) but unaware he is actually being controlled himself and helping the reapers instead of controlling them.

Scarlet Briar: Ever since I came out of Omadd’s machine, you’ve been taking credit for my ideas. They are mine! Not yours.

To sort this right. This is from a holo recording in which she everytime talks to someone else. Only the last one, were she talks against a voice in her head is she all alone. The wiki misses in this case the behaviour and I remember that she pointed towards someone while saying this.
After thinking about this special holo recording, it might the best possibilty that she talked to the inquest. Thaumanova for example is an inquest disaster, but through living story we know that Scarlet worked as consultant for the inquest and basically caused the blow up. The blow up was planned, but not made the right way.

Unless the dragon painting that accompanied the journal about the entity was a giant red herring, I’d keep my hopes concerning good old Laz’ being the entity low…unless…
…Lazarus got corrupted by Mordremoth! (Plot-twist!)

That wouldn’t add up with the avoiding and surviving EDs-part tho unless Mordy tricked Scarlet into thinking Lazarus was above EDs when he’s just a champ and that’s kinda ‘too convoluted’.

Tho on the other hand, I really like the part of the theory about Omadd being Inquest. All in all a good read Konig.

regarding my comment, i see it wasn’t taken the way i expected. no, it’s not meant to be an insult or anything, it’s just that he reminds me of those prosecutors. you’re like “i got this now”, and then he slaps you in the face and say that it’s all conjecture. it was meant for comical, light hearted fun-poking, not criticism.

though in all seriousness, i’m an advocate that the story is more straightforward than you lead us to believe, konig. convoluted stories with too much misinformation and false leads and twists are not good stories, and definitely not stories you want to tell in the cadence ANet has chosen.

@ Rainbow Spirit: There are several things that speaks against the Sylvari = Dragon Minion aspect. First with the Dream. The Dream isn’t unique to the Sylvari ( White Stag ) and not all Sylvari are of the Dream ( Mallyck ). And Mallyck is the second point against the Dragon Minion theory. He isn’t a mindless dragon minion without free will and he is not from the Pale Tree.
Also Sylvari are immune to Dragon corruption and nothing else on Tyria has immunity against dragon corruption, even other Dragon Minions can be corrupted by other dragons, look at CoE Story Mode and Subject Alpha in the explorable modes.

Also cleansing the minions of their corruption needs a kitten load of magic even to free a chicken from it.

Ok to Lazarus. Him being involved, well there is a low chance but it could have happened. Lazarus has more than enough reasons to throw the world into chaos. Humans are respnsible for the nearly extincion of his race. ( He is the only living Mursaat we know of ) and the last aspect he took was corrupted ( work of humans and an asura ) Also this were the last words from Lazarus before he vanished: “Countless generations will suffer for your actions this day!” I think he doesn’t see the difference between the races now, all are vermin that have to suffer from the actions in GW1.

Back to Scarlet. While most see the line that the thing in her mind that was walled off, is a prove that Sylvari are linked to Mordy they don’t see another line. “His notes say its purpose was to shut down the mind’s security system and open it—like opening a door—to welcome in the truths of the Eternal Alchemy. But our minds are protected for a reason”
This one is interesting, he is saying that OUR minds are protected for a reason, not only the minds of the Sylvari. Well it could mean nothing, but it could also be a hint.

Walhalla.5473:

But our minds are protected for a reason

Agree, they are “protected” for a reason!

BrunoBRS.5178:

regarding my comment, i see it wasn’t taken the way i expected. no, it’s not meant to be an insult or anything, it’s just that he reminds me of those prosecutors. you’re like “i got this now”, and then he slaps you in the face and say that it’s all conjecture. it was meant for comical, light hearted fun-poking, not criticism.

though in all seriousness, i’m an advocate that the story is more straightforward than you lead us to believe, konig. convoluted stories with too much misinformation and false leads and twists are not good stories, and definitely not stories you want to tell in the cadence ANet has chosen.

I don’t have time to go through all the posts but there is a theme in a few like Burno’s and that is that I’m trying go say things aren’t as simple as people think.

But that’s not mg main point. The theory at the end was just a last minute addendum to put my own theory forward. The main point was to say this:

People are making assumptions on confirmation where there is none.

Elaboration: Mordremoth had not been confirmed to be the entity. It is not necessarily so that waking Mordremoth was the sole end goal of Scarlet. And the assumptions folks have made that the entity is Mordremoth and that waking him was her sole endgame goal doesn’t mix with older statements like the one from the Flame Legion Prisoner. That I believe people are overlooking facts just because they want the Mordremoth-sylvari connection.

The rest, which seems to have taken the main focus, was just side notes.

That was the main point I was trying to make. Things may still be simple… But you still need to look at all evidence to land at the right conclusion.

And thinking more on the topic, here is another curiosity that hints, when combined with the probe maps on the Breachmaker, to Scarlet’s endgame not being Mordremoth:

She knew she’d be attacking Lion’s Arch since Dragon Bash at least – her hologram recording mentioned putting Mai Grin to weaken LA from within… So why pit probes even in Orr and Ascalon?

To add onto my theory: she was looking for ley lines other than LA, more intersections to disrupt, and those near LA was to pinpoint exactly where to drill.

There are two thumpers right beside Divnity’s Reach on the map from the Breachmaker, which weren’t in game (either because the takeout of low level zones or they are at a position which we cannot reach).

All theories lack if they do not take Jennah in account. The very first target of our villain. Not just the watchwork knights. She wanted to kidnap the queen (remember Logan moaning that he wasn’t informed).

This is a very interesting read, and sure is still worth pondering on as an alternative possibility to the Living World’s direction. I was personally absent for the most part of the last Living World story, so I’ll mostly stick to observing and taking in everyone’s points. However, there is one part in the discussion that bothered me a bit.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

DarcShriek.5829:

Also, anything that has the ability to take the mind of a victim, would easily be able to gain the victims knowledge. So knowledge of modern technology doesn’t seem unreasonable.

Yet no two Elder Dragon corrupt in the same fashion. And Jormag does the mental stuff.

Jormag isn’t the only dragon who did the ‘mental stuff’.

If you go back to the events of the personal story, during the fight with the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan at the Artesian Waters, at some point, if you pay attention to what the characters say, the Eye will try to use your despair over your mentor’s loss to give in to the Dragon. (In my case, since I am from the Priory, his dialogue went along the lines of: “I see in your heart that you have lost someone to Zhaitan. Someone named…Sieran. She is waiting for you now, beneath the dragon’s wings… " ) Now, neither the Eye nor Zhaitan himself was present during the times you were with your mentor or at the Battle of Claw Island (where your mentor dies). But a ton of his minions were. From this alone, we can already draw the most logical answer to the question of how Zhaitan could ever know about your sorrows: that he got this knowledge from his minions and/or his victims.

I’m also a bit confused by your statement that no two dragons corrupt in the same fashion. If you mean it by the elements and the resulting creatures, then yes, indeed they don’t. If by “fashion” you mean the methods they employ to corrupt things and beings, it’s a bit arguable. Jormag corrupted through his minions. Zhaitan raised hundreds of undead to do his bidding. Kralkatorrik can seemingly corrupt with his very breath. We’ve yet to see Mordremoth’s, DSD’s, and Primordius’ since they hardly have any presence in the current observable world. But if you analyze the ones that we do see, on a basic level, it’s pretty much the same. The very essence of the dragons (Draconic Energy?)—their presence, alone, can corrupt everything they touch. Coming in direct contact with the Sanguinary Blade drove Steag Frostbeard insane, just like that relic Kellach recovered from the Ruins of Orr corrupted him and drove him crazy.

Unless I completely misunderstood what you meant by that statement, then it would be nice if you could clarify it some more.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

She knew she’d be attacking Lion’s Arch since Dragon Bash at least – her hologram recording mentioned putting Mai Grin to weaken LA from within… So why pit probes even in Orr and Ascalon?

To add onto my theory: she was looking for ley lines other than LA, more intersections to disrupt, and those near LA was to pinpoint exactly where to drill.

Good point and this one makes really sense, but many people are wondering how Scarlet could possibly know about a ley line intersection in Lion’s Arch and I think the answer comes from the Thaumanova Fractal to be more precice from this line. “At least they helped identify the network of magical channels that crisscross the globe. That was a breakthrough”
So she knew there was an intersection under or near Lion’s Arch because of Thaumanova but she had to use the probes to know the exact position of the big intersection, with this giant Drill you don’t want to miss the intersection.

SkeletalHorses.2108:

This is a very interesting read, and sure is still worth pondering on as an alternative possibility to the Living World’s direction. I was personally absent for the most part of the last Living World story, so I’ll mostly stick to observing and taking in everyone’s points. However, there is one part in the discussion that bothered me a bit.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

DarcShriek.5829:

Also, anything that has the ability to take the mind of a victim, would easily be able to gain the victims knowledge. So knowledge of modern technology doesn’t seem unreasonable.

Yet no two Elder Dragon corrupt in the same fashion. And Jormag does the mental stuff.

Jormag isn’t the only dragon who did the ‘mental stuff’.

If you go back to the events of the personal story, during the fight with the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan at the Artesian Waters, at some point, if you pay attention to what the characters say, the Eye will try to use your despair over your mentor’s loss to give in to the Dragon. (In my case, since I am from the Priory, his dialogue went along the lines of: “I see in your heart that you have lost someone to Zhaitan. Someone named…Sieran. She is waiting for you now, beneath the dragon’s wings… " ) Now, neither the Eye nor Zhaitan himself was present during the times you were with your mentor or at the Battle of Claw Island (where your mentor dies). But a ton of his minions were. From this alone, we can already draw the most logical answer to the question of how Zhaitan could ever know about your sorrows: that he got this knowledge from his minions and/or his victims.

I’m also a bit confused by your statement that no two dragons corrupt in the same fashion. If you mean it by the elements and the resulting creatures, then yes, indeed they don’t. If by “fashion” you mean the methods they employ to corrupt things and beings, it’s a bit arguable. Jormag corrupted through his minions. Zhaitan raised hundreds of undead to do his bidding. Kralkatorrik can seemingly corrupt with his very breath. We’ve yet to see Mordremoth’s, DSD’s, and Primordius’ since they hardly have any presence in the current observable world. But if you analyze the ones that we do see, on a basic level, it’s pretty much the same. The very essence of the dragons (Draconic Energy?)—their presence, alone, can corrupt everything they touch. Coming in direct contact with the Sanguinary Blade drove Steag Frostbeard insane, just like that relic Kellach recovered from the Ruins of Orr corrupted him and drove him crazy.

Unless I completely misunderstood what you meant by that statement, then it would be nice if you could clarify it some more.

Zhaitan wasn’t trying to corrupt the PC using the mind, like Jormag does, it was trying to convince the PC that joining it would reunite the PC with whichever mentor they had, in the Priory’s case an impossibility as Sylari can’t be corrupted by Zhaitan. While it was a mind game Zhaitan was playing it isn’t how it corrupts.

In Sea of Sorrows a similar event takes place where one dies and becomes corrupted and then tries to convince the other to join them as a servant of Zhaitan, meaning the second would need to die to become a full servant.

Mist.6217:

SkeletalHorses.2108:

This is a very interesting read, and sure is still worth pondering on as an alternative possibility to the Living World’s direction. I was personally absent for the most part of the last Living World story, so I’ll mostly stick to observing and taking in everyone’s points. However, there is one part in the discussion that bothered me a bit.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

DarcShriek.5829:

Also, anything that has the ability to take the mind of a victim, would easily be able to gain the victims knowledge. So knowledge of modern technology doesn’t seem unreasonable.

Yet no two Elder Dragon corrupt in the same fashion. And Jormag does the mental stuff.

Jormag isn’t the only dragon who did the ‘mental stuff’.

If you go back to the events of the personal story, during the fight with the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan at the Artesian Waters, at some point, if you pay attention to what the characters say, the Eye will try to use your despair over your mentor’s loss to give in to the Dragon. (In my case, since I am from the Priory, his dialogue went along the lines of: “I see in your heart that you have lost someone to Zhaitan. Someone named…Sieran. She is waiting for you now, beneath the dragon’s wings… " ) Now, neither the Eye nor Zhaitan himself was present during the times you were with your mentor or at the Battle of Claw Island (where your mentor dies). But a ton of his minions were. From this alone, we can already draw the most logical answer to the question of how Zhaitan could ever know about your sorrows: that he got this knowledge from his minions and/or his victims.

I’m also a bit confused by your statement that no two dragons corrupt in the same fashion. If you mean it by the elements and the resulting creatures, then yes, indeed they don’t. If by “fashion” you mean the methods they employ to corrupt things and beings, it’s a bit arguable. Jormag corrupted through his minions. Zhaitan raised hundreds of undead to do his bidding. Kralkatorrik can seemingly corrupt with his very breath. We’ve yet to see Mordremoth’s, DSD’s, and Primordius’ since they hardly have any presence in the current observable world. But if you analyze the ones that we do see, on a basic level, it’s pretty much the same. The very essence of the dragons (Draconic Energy?)—their presence, alone, can corrupt everything they touch. Coming in direct contact with the Sanguinary Blade drove Steag Frostbeard insane, just like that relic Kellach recovered from the Ruins of Orr corrupted him and drove him crazy.

Unless I completely misunderstood what you meant by that statement, then it would be nice if you could clarify it some more.

Zhaitan wasn’t trying to corrupt the PC using the mind, like Jormag does, it was trying to convince the PC that joining it would reunite the PC with whichever mentor they had, in the Priory’s case an impossibility as Sylari can’t be corrupted by Zhaitan. While it was a mind game Zhaitan was playing it isn’t how it corrupts.

In Sea of Sorrows a similar event takes place where one dies and becomes corrupted and then tries to convince the other to join them as a servant of Zhaitan, meaning the second would need to die to become a full servant.

Ah…that example about Zhaitan and the PC is more of something that I wanted to bring up from my observation that Konig seems to be staunchly opposed (or at least evasive) to the idea of the dragons gaining knowledge through their minions, regardless of what type of knowledge that is. And not about the dragon’s methods of corruption. I think it’s my mistake that I italicized that last part from his quote. The two paragraphs are separate ideas (first one is on the knowledge minion thing, and the second is on the similarities of dragon corruption). I hope this clarifies that.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

To add onto my theory: she was looking for ley lines other than LA, more intersections to disrupt, and those near LA was to pinpoint exactly where to drill.

I also mentioned this in my earlier reply, so I agree!

It’s my opinion though that Scarlet was looking for a specific point of the leylines to disrupt. Not necessarily having a definite goal or looking for more leylines, but triangulating the spot to drill in order to disrupt them, hence the multitudes of probes around Tyria!

What do you guys think?

It’s already been said in the PS that a dragon knows everything its minion’s know. That’s not a theory, that’s fact. No arguing that point.

SkeletalHorses.2108:

Ah…that example about Zhaitan and the PC is more of something that I wanted to bring up from my observation that Konig seems to be staunchly opposed (or at least evasive) to the idea of the dragons gaining knowledge through their minions, regardless of what type of knowledge that is. And not about the dragon’s methods of corruption. I think it’s my mistake that I italicized that last part from his quote. The two paragraphs are separate ideas (first one is on the knowledge minion thing, and the second is on the similarities of dragon corruption). I hope this clarifies that.

Okay did misunderstand your points thanks for the clarification.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Right, so, what are “her ideas” that the entity was taking credit for? Every single thing Scarlet did required modern technology. How could something that is still sleeping and has been sleeping for 10,000 years know about modern things? It would be like someone who’s been in a coma since 1980 knowing how to work a smartphone and knowing about 911 upon waking. It just doesn’t happen.

As rainbow spirit stated, a dragon knows everything it’s minions know.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

*

Scarlet would likely have gained this from the “entity”. So, who would the entity be that it would know how to escape the Elder Dragons’ wrath?

I think it’s one of two possibilities. First possibility is Lazarus, the second is the Inquest.

Lazarus for two reasons: 1) The mursaat had fled the world to let the Elder Dragons ravage it before, wiping out an entire race (almost) as they did so (the Seers), and when they returned they returned portraying themselves as the Unseen Ones – as gods. They returned intending to rule, it seems. It would not be unlikely for this to happen again. 2) The Aftermath instance in The Dead End formally introduces Belinda Delaqua, whom hints at the Season 2’s direction (IMO): west, dealing with black market dealers who base themselves in Brisban Wildlands. Sounds familiar? Fort Vandal is run by bandits, and bandits are run by the White Mantle. And who runs the White Mantle? Mursaat. Thus I suspect Season 2 will be returning to GW1 lore in the form of Lazarus, and may be tied into Season 1 via being the entity.

There is actually a really good theory an discussion about the White Mantle and their living world connection on this forum. Just pointing it out since it is definately worth reading. It would be a shame if you didnt join in!

The entity that corrupted Scarlet must not neccesarily have been Mordremoth, and the possibility exists that it is Lazarus, the last Mursaat known to exist. However, assuming that the thorny plant strangling the Pale Tree and the entity corrupting Scarlet are one and the same, it seems more likely that it was Mordremoth, whose “theme” is nature, or the corruption of nature.

Or it was something completely different, seeing how Scarlet mentions that the Pale Tree and the Nightmare Court are part of some bigger picture, some “plan”. I am sure that the answer lies within the Maguuma Jungle, and i see three possibilities here:

1. it’s Mordremoth, meaning that the Sylvari are kinda part of the Elder Dragon’s plan, and Mordremoth had already started to assault the Pale Tree.
2. it’s Lazarus, the only known surviving Mursaat, whom people expect to return at some point. However, Anet seems to discard old lore/stories in favour of new ones.
3. it’s some powerful force that we haven’t seen yet, and Mordremoth’s awakening was only a coincidence of Scarlet’s action. It could be a corrupted Pale Tree for example, one that did not have the benefit of the teachings of Ventari.

I tend to assume that the easiest/most apparent solution is the correct one, which means Mordremoth has the highest likelyhood, as we do not have any proof otherwise, and every ambiguity in the information given to us is the result of several teams working on the Living World updates. Which means that Scarlet got manipulated into speeding up the Elder Dragon’s awakening.

Some inconsistencies remain that are a bit harder to overlook, like Scarlet’s wish to control her own destiny and shape the world, and her being aware that there was some “master” whom she helped gain power.
Concerning Mordremoth’s knowledge, i am sure that it is completely aware of the state of affairs in Tyria, including technology. Zhaitan was aware of it, why should it be any different with Mordremoth? Such a powerful creature must not be awake/physically active/gain new minions for that. Most likely Mordremoth already has plentiful of minions.

So imo there is a likelyhood for it not being Mordremoth, but at the moment i assume that the most obvious answer is the correct one. We saw Mordremoth in the cutscene, it’s Mordremoth that is “Tyria’s new master”.

Scarlet may have believed that her actions would give her control over her destiny and make her “Queen of the world”, but in the end her ultimate goal became unimportant. So it is likely that there isn’t anything more to be revealed about her plans.

We mainly know about the entity giving nightmares to Scarlet through her journal. The journal calls these “whispers from the forest” and that’s the only clue we really have about this entity. I can’t think of much else that is going to whisper to Scarlet from the forest, that is a separate from Dream and Nightmare, than the Forest Dragon.

For all the talk about Scarlet awakening dragons plural she does talk about Tyria bowing to a singular new master. I think Scarlet’s dialogue is more relevant that Tiami’s speculation.

“Scarlet Briar: Ever since I came out of Omadd’s machine, you’ve been taking credit for my ideas. They are mine! Not yours.”

This may just be clever psychology. The dragon is absolutely winning the mind games by giving Scarlet ideas and making her think they are her own.

I like the idea about the Scarlet promising her allies immunity from the dragons somehow, however it does have problems. Dragons can be dormant for quite a long time so most beings will be hoping to live out their lives before they threaten. It’s just too big a risk to wake them up. If the Mursaat are out there with the technology to hide then why don’t they just hide again? This seems exactly the wrong time to stop hiding from elder dragons. If the Inquest have taken the Mursaat magitech from Arah then I still don’t see what they have go gain from stirring the Dragons up. All they need to do is create their secret havens and continue all their other plans for world Domination.

I don’t see anything special about Omadd working with the Inquest. It’s an open secret in Rata Sum that they still have plenty of connections within the city.

Erukk.1408:

…Is it possible that Ceara was somehow carrying an Aspect of Lazarus around?

I thank you, for weeks I have been struggling with beings that had the ability to inhabit someones mind, controlling someones mind. I’ve been thinking about almost every creature but I totally forgot that Lazarus had been able to split himself and imbue his aspects into people.

Mursaat have been said to have magic independent of the Gods which made me think that since it’s now known that magic didn’t came from the Gods, the magic the Mursaat possess is from another world.

Also, they are able to slip beneath the skin of the world if Lazarus is hiding there now, and Omadd’s machine sent Scarlet there, she might have encountered Lazarus.

Hmhh.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

My personal theory on this unanswered question
I think Scarlet was strengthening the Elder Dragons for unknown reasons and began with Mordremoth because it was asleep still. And she would have the answer to solve the crises she made, thus Tyria will “need” her. And to be clear – I don’t think Scarlet’s trying to be a good guy here, but trying to force the world to accept her as being as great as she thinks she is.

Does Scarlet seem like the kind of person to care about how the world views her to get what she wants? I got the impression she wanted to rule, but not through any democracy or meritocracy, Scarlet viewed her own abilities as self evident regardless of how others perceived her. The note to Caithe is an outlier and her feeling of being “challenged” by the Queen’s comments about humanity show some signs of competitiveness but someone who was as “diplomatic” as she was (she is aware enough of different factions and how to form alliances that she forged several unlikely ones) she should know her method of demonstrating her abilities was going to paint her as nothing but a villain. To me, the idea that she would create a crisis just to solve it to impress others, that just paints Scarlet as crazy. Scarlet had contempt of the world as it is, I don’t think she wanted acceptance of any kind.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Firstly, Omadd got Scarlet (aka Ceara) into the colleges for the asura to study her, and even kept working with her after she was a member of the Inquest and a known criminal of Rata Sum (breaking into the archives and being exiled from Rata Sum and all that jazz). It may be possible that he was Inquest and that he lied about the purpose of the machine.

Why Scarlet? Why not use the machine on someone else if he is Inquest? Is it a coincidence that the path Scarlet went down was entirely foreshadowed by Ceara and not dictated by Omadd? All the knowledge Scarlet used to achieve her goal, that was knowledge that Ceara obtained on her own, working with blacksmiths, weapons experts, hylek etc. Obviously the Inquest would make use of Scarlet’s tool box of skills regardless of whether they chose what was in it or not, but it’s a bit convenient that all the skills Scarlet uses happen to be skills that Ceara, with her own free will, obtained.

I viewed Omadd’s decision to work with Scaret despite the loose morality of the situation to be in character for the asura. It’s very common for asura to go beyond the boundaries of normal morality even if they are not inquest. They view people as disposable and they themselves get lost in an inflated perceived value of their own pursuits. If the research is important enough it trumps morality. Even the PC puts the world at risk when dealing with the infinity ball. Scarlet was a useful research partner (there are a few examples of asura viewing sylvari as good assistants etc) and disposable if he needed a test subject.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

As rainbow spirit stated, a dragon knows everything it’s minions know.

That’s kinda the point that Konig was making as well.

Scarlet being a minion of Mordremoth is a player assumption, but some people are taking that as fact already. The fact of the matter is, is that there has been no confirmation of anything yet. The Entity is still unknown, whether or not it’s in anyway connected to Mordremoth is unknown, Scarlet’s motives for awakening the dragon are still unknown. All we know is that it was her endgame, but we have no explanation of why it was her endgame.

People are thinking that everything connects back to Mordremoth because it’s the simplest explanation for everything. But the simplest explanation isn’t always the correct explanation. Until we get some more clarification or explanations on all these unknowns, everything is still up in the air theory-wise.

I agree with Konig, there are a few things that do not convince me at all.
The simplest hypothesis, i.e. Scarlet manipulated by Mordremoth to help it to wake up, sounds strange to me. All the other dragons followed a different pattern: rise a champion that siphon “naturally” magic for their master to help them. Here we would have a dragon that make an engineer to build a giant machine.
What I also think is weird is that Anet did not make the PC and NPCs discuss about the entity in the last dialogue. I know this is not a legit lore argumentation, but if the whole entity think was just Mordremoth convincing Scarlet to help him why not tell us already? It is something everyone expects, it would not add anything to the story at this point.
The Maguma was the last retreat of the White Mantle, but we never discovered why exactly. It was also the place where we have seen the last living Mursat… very convenient there is also a dragon!
Personally I would love to see Lazarus back, but I am trying to keep my hopes low…
What I think is interesting is the secret Scarlet said to know about Caithe… something “nasty” she did. If the entity is Mordremoth, I can not see many things Caithe could have done. If the entity is Lazarus, maybe Caithe in her travels found him or helped him involuntary.

I’d agree that we don’t know everything and waking Mordremoth wasn’t her end-goal (although the “Tyria will bow before a new master” line seems to imply that, but maybe she meant herself in delusional megalomania?), obviously she doesn’t see herself as the villain, which they even explicitly mention as you said.

As far as the Entity goes, I doubt it is the Mursaat or Inquest. As far as I know, the Entity was with her right from the beginning. It was also stated that whatever she brought into the isolation chamber was already in her and all the chamber really did was removing psychological / neurological defenses in an attempt to see the Eternal Alchemy.

Remember that Scarlet spoke to the Pale Tree during the isolation chamber experience. It’s quite possible that what she saw wasn’t the Eternal Alchemy at all, but instead unmitigated, direct access to the Dream and she learned something about the Sylvari/the Dream that was never revealed to us. Likely Caithe’s secret?

Therefore I think the Entity either was within the Dream or has access to the Dream somehow. While it is possible that it’s Mordremoth/a champion, it does by no means confirm that. It could be something new we don’t even know about yet, or whatever is behind the Nightmare.

If the Dream originates in the location instead of the Pale Tree herself like you often theorized Konig, then it’s even possible that the Mursaat are behind it, since they probably operate nearby if they are still active. Still very unlikely though, I’m not that up on GW1 lore, but as far as I know the Mursaat aren’t really associated with mind magic or dreams or whatever.

Still, my point is I think the Entity has something to do with the Dream or the origin of the Sylvari, whether that connects to Mordy or not.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

At least, I now strongly believe this is the case. And I think her story is not yet finished either. There are a lot of still unanswered questions, and a lot of things continuously stated as fact though… it isn’t. Anyways, I’ll break this down into four topics: The Entity, The Dragon(s) Involvement, Scarlet’s Probes, and Caithe’s Secret. In said order.

The Entity’s Identity is Still Unknown
A lot – almost everyone – have been outright believing that the Entity has been Mordremoth. Or Mordremoth’s champions. People seem hellbent on making the sylvari-Mordremoth connection that they took the waking of Mordremoth to mean that he, or his champion, was what was talking to Scarlet’s mind.

But we have no evidence for this. Yes, Scarlet woke Mordy up, but nothing really indicates that Mordy or its champions was what talked to Scarlet. We know, quite literally, nothing about the entity except that:

1. It first entered Scarlet’s mind when she entered Omadd’s Isolation Module (see: A Study in Scarlet).
2. It only talked to her in her dreams at first, and grew stronger over time (see: Scarlet Briar’s Journal). But overtime talked to her when awake (see: A Study in Scarlet and battle on the Breachmaker).
3. Was continuously warring for Scarlet’s mind (see current Pale Tree dialogue).
4. And finally, it showed her images of death, destruction, and destiny.

None of this points to the sole case of “Elder Dragon” or “dragon champion”. In fact, I would argue that A Study in Scarlet reduces the chances of this. Here’s why:

Scarlet Briar: Ever since I came out of Omadd’s machine, you’ve been taking credit for my ideas. They are mine! Not yours.

Right, so, what are “her ideas” that the entity was taking credit for? Every single thing Scarlet did required modern technology. How could something that is still sleeping and has been sleeping for 10,000 years know about modern things? It would be like someone who’s been in a coma since 1980 knowing how to work a smartphone and knowing about 911 upon waking. It just doesn’t happen.

On the flip side, they really are her ideas and the entity is actually trying to take credit for it – as a mind game. But that doesn’t fit Elder Dragon corruption effects of any other Elder Dragon. And while each dragon may corrupt differently, it doesn’t match the shared persona of taking things and destroying what cannot be taken (as opposed to taking credit for things not theirs). The Elder Dragons are too large, too high above the wee little ants called “Tyrians” to bother taking credit for their “ideas”.

So either the entity is an individual who was awake to know modern events – such as dredge sonic technology, or the inquest which known to be fairly modern (within 200 years), and other such things. Or we got the first Elder Dragon who apparently breaks the mold of all other Elder Dragons.

Her ultimate goal was to die so she succeeded. Pale tree only one who knew what was happening in that head of hers thanked us afterwards. Though she could be lying.

AsgarZigel.4530:

I’d agree that we don’t know everything and waking
Remember that Scarlet spoke to the Pale Tree during the isolation chamber experience. It’s quite possible that what she saw wasn’t the Eternal Alchemy at all, but instead unmitigated, direct access to the Dream and she learned something about the Sylvari/the Dream that was never revealed to us. Likely Caithe’s secret?

I can´t give you the source, but I remember reading/hearing that she just thinks she saw Eternal Alchemy, but in fact it was just a sort of halucination or something. Maybe it was some kind of Dream, since she spoke with Pale Tree and Pale Tree refers to that conversation in-game, so it actually happened on some level.
It could be, as you suggest, that the Entity was somehow in the Dream (or something similar to it) and could have access to any sylvari, but Scarlet was opened to that during experiment

Pretty much what I’ve been thinking.

There’s still many things left unanswered. Mr. E, for example, said something along the lines of (couldn’t find any wiki page stating what he said) dark forces at work in this city (Divinity’s Reach) -hint at Mursaat again- and the world -not dragons I’d assume. Probably the entity is related to those “dark forces.”

Also, Scarlet states that “these forces can be set against each other”, so my guess is that she’s referring to the entity -that could be part of a larger whole- and the dragons, or specifically, Modremoth.

This is just a shot in the dark but could the Entity we’re talking about be the ‘Mysterious Entity’ we saw at Thaumanova,another intersection of the ley lines?

I love this thread Konig mainly because you have pointed out the main reason I hate this game currently.

All if not most of the “lore” we got about Scarlet’s motives is dependent on the player base speculation, it’s not about fact. Look at Guild Wars 1, Prophecies, in that story we learned exactly why the Lich did what he did, and then later in Nightfall we got some more depth to it learning that Abbadon was behind that whole thing. But still, we got an open and close story in Prophecies alone. Yet here we are with Scarlet, big ol’ unfinished story a year in the making and all we have to go off of is…. speculation and assumptions.

I am totally with Konig here, until they definitively mention in game some things about Scarlet, you can’t just assume that what you “think” happened is lore, cause it’s not, this is not how the game can continue lore wise. ANet needs to start giving some answers and solid lore, not just speculation upon more speculation.

“ANet needs to start giving some answers and solid lore, not just speculation upon more speculation.”

They did. It was the investigation with Marjory at the Dead End. It doesn’t seem like solid lore because it was shallow and unconvincing. I still feel that 95% or more of the Dead End investigation will be the final word on the matter.

Chasing clues by omissions has been a waste of time so far. The Pale Tree never did anything about Scarlet because … because …. it wasn’t in the story. No more to be said.