Guild Wars 2

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Also, if it was a settlement of Orr than it’s Orrian territory. Which means it’s effectively in Orr.

I am talking geography, not political borders. Orr is the peninsula. It was, geographically, part of the Tarnished Coast. Not Orr, like you claimed.

And there’s no way they were hinting at Zhaitan back in Prophecies, when the thought of Elder Dragons (very clearly given the number of retcons) did not exist in their heads.
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Eye of the North, on the other hand was all about setting up the dragons. And that’s where “Shards of Orr” was added. To the Tarnished Coast since it couldn’t be added to Orr proper.

As for political or geographic boundaries – quickly, is the Dalada Uplands part of Ascalon? Depends on who you ask – the charr would say yes, the humans possibly might claim it but not as much as they would claim Ashford was in Ascalon. Boundaries are fluid with the times, and the situation.

. . . also hampered by the nature of it being a game, such as there being no “Far Shiverpeaks” in GW2 yet one location from such is still there – the Eye of the North.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And Eir’s been wrong before, not to mention other characters being mistaken on factual basis in the past.

But you have no basis for the likelihood that this one thing, in all of the things Eir mentions on the subject, is wrong. She was 100% accurate on the story of Jora and Svanir, and Jeff Grubb even referenced her mention of Drakkar drawing power from the Sons after their founding to aid Jormag rise.

I also didn’t say she was wrong, only mistaken. There is a difference.

The Sons of Svanir are like the Nightmare Court – you can choose to join them but leaving them completely is impossible. And those who do join them are drawn to the idea of power, but I’d say the choice isn’t entirely their own. Power at any price is what is offered, and no other lodge offers such a thing – for good reason. Much as the Nightmare Court promises freedom, so long as you follow their lead.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And it didn’t catch fire until the mursaat stepped in and helped push back the charr themselves, before vanishing with Saul and leaving Dorian in charge. In short, the mursaat created the White Mantle we see while Saul created the name and the basis of them.

I think the BMP and the fact that the Test of the Chosen (which is administered by knights who’s likely to be promoted to Justiciar) existed for at least 3 years prior to the Searing proves you wrong.

But this is irrelevant in the end.
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Irrelevant to the fact of the sylvari? Yes. Relevant to the conversation? Sure.

And, I played the Bonus Mission Pack. The White Mantle in that was not the same as we see later, in that it was smaller and very lacking in members. Loyal members, naturally, but as I said – it didn’t catch on until much later when it was clear they had power.

Sort of reflects on how people are drawn to join the Sons of Svanir. Proof of power draws all sorts who would love to have a piece of it for themselves.

Edge of Destiny, page 221: “Svanir wandered the wastes in madness, attacking any who came near.”

Doesn’t sound like the description of someone who’d establish his own cult.

I don’t know, there was an intelligence behind his madness, a series of choices on how to torment Jora with the knowledge it was her brother behind this all. All it takes is one person to see the Nornbear at work and bow in reverence and a cult has been sparked.

Leadership through example. It’s certainly possible. Probability is another story.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Great! And the other two?

No canonical mention. Which was my point.

Well, my point is they had to have existed if a character began in Cantha or Elona so the story could happen. So why aren’t they mentioned? Aside, of course, from the GW2 lore being horribly Tyria-centric in many cases.

Lack of evidence is not the evidence of lacking. It’s on you to prove that there was, thus being usable as your argument that “destroyers didn’t go there despite magical energies there,” more than it is on me to prove that there wasn’t.

It’s also on you to prove some things which you claim but so far you have not. Such as the Pale Tree not drawing on magic, or how mordrem cannot be related in any way to the only other species of ambulatory vegetation on Tyria with intelligence.

I fail to see how seizing the closest magical locations near their breaching points and/or asura gates is any harder than traveling dozens if not hundreds of miles to seize and control other locales.

If that’s the case . . . again . . . why didn’t the Destroyers seek out other places of power? Unless that was not the primary purpose of that invasion, in which case we can deduce there are reasons to send out minions aside from draining magic. And from there it is a deduction to the potential existence of minions who are specifically made not to do so. To remain hidden as they travel until they reach the target.

And on that last part: do remember that we weren’t yet dealing with an Elder Dragon – just its minions. And I’m not so sure that Mordremoth “just is” aware, keep in mind that the tendrils ran along the ley lines, which were redirected by Scarlet – so it was made aware… then it got close to other magical objects/locations, and attacked (near) them too. Zhaitan didn’t collect artifacts in the temple of Abaddon for hundreds of years, either, despite proximity.

No, but it did have plenty of other things in Orr to consume based on some Personal Story tidbits. It still was feeding off the Temples, from all appearances.

We even had Linsey Murdock state that the quests going from Nightfall to Prophecies/Factions isn’t canon lore – as it would involve time travel of going back in time 3 years – but a mechanical facilitation to allow Nightfall-made players access to the other games.

Sure. That can be understood.

. . . but it doesn’t address the other things to make them non-canon. Only the ones cited.

The thing is you actually didn’t prove that the destroyer hive was there before the foundry was. Both are there before the actual mission, and both are there after the actual mission.

So where did you “point it out” that one came before the other?

Well, it was there before the mission ever became available to set up the foundry in the first place. You can find it on the way to Rata Sum for the first time, during which you cannot have the G.O.L.E.M quest in any form.

Ergo, it had to be there before the quest.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Well . . . sylvari, for one.

Which is the very subject of debate and thus not a proper piece of evidence or support.

“Sylvari are different because the sylvari are different” is not that very convincing of an argument. That’s like looking at a question in a fantasy setting and shouting that the answer is “BECAUSE MAGIC!”

You need to show me a fantasy story where there is magic involved where “magic makes it so” isn’t a valid response to things such as “why can that person throw fire from their hands?”.

And the tautology stands. They are different from known dragon minions because they are different from known dragon minions. Said tautology also forms the basis of your argument, you just build off it in a different direction. My point, in the case of this argument, needs to point in the other direction at the conclusion I have chosen. Therefore, it’s natural I take it in the other direction and search out reasons why it may be plausible.

After all, your position was that it was not plausible.

Ronan’s influence/the reason Malyck is so similar to sylvari only hold an answer to their mentality – like the Forgotten ritual for Glint. It does not answer other questions, such as appearance (which, to me, you did not bring up sample support for countering with your “well Eyes and Mouths and Tequatl differ from standard mobs!” argument).

Why does each piece have to follow from where you decide it follows from? Curious.

And there is, so far, nothing about Malyck’s tree other than it exists and there are sylvari not born in the Grove in the world. Which raises the question . . . why is another tree producing sylvari who look similar enough to ones from this tree influenced by Ronan, assumedly without the influence of Ronan?

The only answer to draw from that is the seeds are intended to create trees like the Pale Tree and from there to generate sylvari which look as they do independent of outside influence. Ronan’s influence was in the mentality and morality of the Pale Tree. It is the only answer which can currently be chosen which is supported by evidence we have now.

If more evidence arises that Malyck’s tree also had a “Ronan” who influenced it, then a different conclusion can be reached – that these two trees generate sylvari while other seeds which made trees instead created mordrem. Starting, of course, from the assumption they are indeed created by Mordremoth in some fashion and are connected at all.

The prospect that sylvari simply consume “less” magic is an interesting one, but it brings up the question of why the Elder Dragons don’t consume magic slower to prolong their waking cycles.

. . . well, Mordremoth’s cycle started considerably late compared to the other dragons. Which have already awakened and are active. I think we just hit on a detail which is important – the sylvari are not feeding it power unlike the most of the other minions of the other dragons. So it was wakening almost entirely off ley line energies and having no active force out there feeding enough to fully awaken.

It is also something that would not go unnoticed when near magical artifacts unless it is so insignificant amount of magical consumption that they may as well not be consuming magic at all – which, again, begs the question of why don’t the Elder Dragons regulate this to avoid being forced into hibernation.

They may not be able to help themselves, having been asleep for so long. Like a thirsty person and a gallon of water – they will try to drink the whole thing even though it’s physically impossible to chug it all in one sitting.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

- Chaos Orb (given by Countess Anise, then infused through Thaumanova with “chaos magic”. . . suspected to be a misnomer of dragon energy)

Correction: The Inquest added dragon energy to chaos magic, thinking the two to be the same. That’s what caused the explosion – mixing chaos and dragon energies without knowing. Explained by Ellen Kiel if you talked to her during Fractured! after doing the fractal – and again later during A Study in Scarlet

I haven’t done that fractal experience. I couldn’t find anyone interested in it at the time (after learning Scarlet was involved somehow) and definitely nobody is interested now. I say “suspected” because I do recall someone covering the Thaumanova matter and saying “chaos energy? Oh, no, it was dragon energy”.

And I also said “suspected” because I never could prove it. Better to use a soft thing like that than stating outright it is so.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

The Divine Fire is known to be associated with Ascension, specifically the last key to reaching the interior of Augury Rock while the vision crystal draws the attention of the Five Gods down to witness the fight against the Doppleganger. It is not yet known to be associated with Magdaer or Sohothin, which until recent developments were just copies of the “Fiery Dragon Sword” possessed by father and son of a prominent royal line. (The direct decent of it being through Orrian royal lines being debatable, and highly unknown at this time.)

Magdaer and Sohothin are actually the originals – the rest were the copies. But in Episode 8, it is stated that Divine Fire was a gift of the gods to both Forgotten and humans. It is also shown to be highly effective against dragon minions – or at least mordrem – while Foefire ghosts are immune to (Kralkatorrik’s) dragon corruption, and ghostfire which comes from said ghosts can burn through anything (relates to Ogden’s warnings of divine fire being deadly) but burns exceptionally fast through risen. Magdaer and Sohothin were also gifts from the gods.

Nothing solid, but the parallels are undeniable.

It’s strange the Divine Fire is a gift from the Human Gods, and it is exceptionally powerful against dragon minions – yet the gods chose to hide themselves rather than use it to defend themselves. And they do hide themselves – despite answering rituals (Priestess Rhie in the Temple of Grenth) they do not take any direct action. Yet if the Divine Fire has such potential, they could. So why, then, do they not? Topic for another day.

As for the Foefire, while there are parallels, and potentially a link? It’s unknown at this time. Since one source which could be definitively answered doesn’t have lucid moments (Adelbern) and others might not have the answer (Echo of Turai Ossa) . . . there’s only supposition.

. . . I’m still bothered by where Sohothin re-entered the world of Tyria from the Ring of Fire. Given the place erupted, it should have been unmade – gift of the Gods or no, the physical form should still have been destroyed. Clearly that is not so . . . why? And how did it become found?

Again, another topic for another day.

Hi guys,
Can we confirm whether we have been able to ascertain if chaos magic and dragon magic are two distinct things? I’m not sure where this might be stated as fact. Thanks.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I haven’t done that fractal experience. I couldn’t find anyone interested in it at the time (after learning Scarlet was involved somehow) and definitely nobody is interested now. I say “suspected” because I do recall someone covering the Thaumanova matter and saying “chaos energy? Oh, no, it was dragon energy”.

And I also said “suspected” because I never could prove it. Better to use a soft thing like that than stating outright it is so.

All Scarlet said was that the Inquest flubbed up and mistook dragon energy as chaos energy.

People take the line out of proportion -something easily done due to its wording – by presuming that all chaos energy is dragon energy, rather than just the energy that the Inquest were dealing with.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It’s strange the Divine Fire is a gift from the Human Gods, and it is exceptionally powerful against dragon minions – yet the gods chose to hide themselves rather than use it to defend themselves. And they do hide themselves – despite answering rituals (Priestess Rhie in the Temple of Grenth) they do not take any direct action. Yet if the Divine Fire has such potential, they could. So why, then, do they not? Topic for another day.

They aren’t hiding. Time and time again, Jeff Grubb had stated in various interviews – the most recent being in 2014 – that the gods left because they want humanity to survive, or fall, on their own, and that the only thing keeping them in contact with Tyria for the past 1,070 years was Abaddon.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’m still bothered by where Sohothin re-entered the world of Tyria from the Ring of Fire. Given the place erupted, it should have been unmade – gift of the Gods or no, the physical form should still have been destroyed. Clearly that is not so . . . why? And how did it become found?

Something that’s bothered me has been this: was there ever any canon statement that the sword Rurik had post-Exile was Sohothin?

As to its destruction… If the speculation that the Staff of the Mists and Scepter of Orr are god-made too, and the Staff of the Mists required a specific location to be destroyed, maybe Sohothin and Magdaer are the same – only capable of being destroyed when placed on certain locations (such as Hallowed Point).

Stephen.6312:

Hi guys,
Can we confirm whether we have been able to ascertain if chaos magic and dragon magic are two distinct things? I’m not sure where this might be stated as fact. Thanks.

sigh

Allow me to quote what I was just talking about, then…

“Just the basics: the facility was intended to study chaos magic, but the Inquest and their so-called “specialist,” Scarlet, pushed things in dangerous new directions."
→How so?
“They claimed there was a link between the Thaumanova’s chaos energy and Elder Dragon energy. They ramped things up past the point of safe operation, and the reactor melted down.”

This is Ellen Kiel talking about her findings from the fractal and other research. This clearly shows that there’s a difference – yet a link between – the two (chaos energy and dragon energy).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’m still bothered by where Sohothin re-entered the world of Tyria from the Ring of Fire. Given the place erupted, it should have been unmade – gift of the Gods or no, the physical form should still have been destroyed. Clearly that is not so . . . why? And how did it become found?

Something that’s bothered me has been this: was there ever any canon statement that the sword Rurik had post-Exile was Sohothin?

As to its destruction… If the speculation that the Staff of the Mists and Scepter of Orr are god-made too, and the Staff of the Mists required a specific location to be destroyed, maybe Sohothin and Magdaer are the same – only capable of being destroyed when placed on certain locations (such as Hallowed Point).

An easy explanation for Sohothins survival would be glint. She took/teleported the Scepter of Orr and if she new about the sword, why not take it as well? Or Sohothin never was on the Ring of Fire but was left behind in the Shiverpeaks. Both variants sound good to me.
And Magdaer was at least damaged by the Foefire Spell, no special place needed (as far as I know), but it’s hard to say if it was really destroyed and thus wouldn’t have the same power after getting reforged or if it would be as good as new after the fix.
And speaking of the Scepter of Orr, maybe we will find it in the Maguuma again^^

Hey Konig,
Thanks for responding to my query. Admittedly, I can’t be sure whether Kiel’s analysis of the post-Thaumanova situation definitively proves that chaos magic and dragon magic are two different things. Ceara’s wording during the Fractal, to me at least, seems to point in the opposite direction (i.e. chaos magic is the Inquest/asura description of Elder Dragon magic, they just don’t realize it until Thaumanova, perhaps because they were dealing with the magic of more than one dragon). Perhaps this is an example of how misleading the statement is? Hopefully Anet will clarify this in future episodes.

SoulyD.9125:

An easy explanation for Sohothins survival would be glint. She took/teleported the Scepter of Orr and if she new about the sword, why not take it as well? Or Sohothin never was on the Ring of Fire but was left behind in the Shiverpeaks. Both variants sound good to me.
And Magdaer was at least damaged by the Foefire Spell, no special place needed (as far as I know), but it’s hard to say if it was really destroyed and thus wouldn’t have the same power after getting reforged or if it would be as good as new after the fix.
And speaking of the Scepter of Orr, maybe we will find it in the Maguuma again^^

Technically, nothing says that Glint took the Scepter of Orr. It, in fact, disappeared after Glint’s avatar did. Some folks speculate that it has its own defense mechanism to teleport it to safety if in danger – if so, Sohothin can have the same.

And Magdaer was broken to cast its spell – that’s a function, not a malfunction.

I don’t see why we’d find the Scepter of Orr in the Maguuma, given that it wasn’t there in the past, and last we knew, the Shining Blade (specifically Livia) had it.

Stephen.6312:

Hey Konig,
Thanks for responding to my query. Admittedly, I can’t be sure whether Kiel’s analysis of the post-Thaumanova situation definitively proves that chaos magic and dragon magic are two different things. Ceara’s wording during the Fractal, to me at least, seems to point in the opposite direction (i.e. chaos magic is the Inquest/asura description of Elder Dragon magic, they just don’t realize it until Thaumanova, perhaps because they were dealing with the magic of more than one dragon). Perhaps this is an example of how misleading the statement is? Hopefully Anet will clarify this in future episodes.

All Ceara/Scarlet says is that the Inquest mistook dragon energy for chaos energy. She never said they’re the same, really.

There’s really nothing that actually indicates the two is the same. And besides, we know that dragon energy corrupts – but mesmers have been using chaos magic even in GW1.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

There’s really nothing that actually indicates the two is the same. And besides, we know that dragon energy corrupts – but mesmers have been using chaos magic even in GW1.

But if we are to believe that while Dragon’s Sleep they burp and fart their essence back into the world, it’s entirely plausible that chaos magic has a common source. That being said however, given my constant parading against Subject Alpha and it’s legitimacy, I do also wonder how extensive tampering can get – be it voluntary or involuntary.

However, Ceera’s comment could still be a play on words. That she is implying that the Asura miss-attributed their research on the same source of energy. Each ED maintains a sphere of influence on energies, that project a specific affect, that make up the world of Tyria (or the universe depending how they tie into the mists) so Chaos magic may very well be the result of an element per-se that the EDs themselves feed and distribute.

EDIT: What I’m getting at here is that the very same cutscene people were pointing fingers as the explanation over waking cycles, IMHO was actually portraying the relationship the EDs had with Tyria’s ecosystem. On a magical level, I guess you could say. That is of course ignoring the whole Mordremoth bit going through the center which I think was just portraying how we gone and flipped stuff up.

Using the Mesmer reference, what if Mesmers were just attune to that sphere of influence which happens to be on par with Kralk’s behavior?

Konig, you keep bringing up “Sylvari don’t consume magic.” “Sylvari don’t have a hivemind.” “Sylvari don’t function like minions.”

But why should they? They were not made directly made by a dragon. They are not connected to a dragon. They never have been. They are protected by the Pale Tree. I explained in another thread, in response to you, the reasons why those things ( and a few other points as well) wouldn’t apply to Sylvari.

Here is a link: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/I-knew-we-couldn-t-trust-them-SPOILER/page/5#post4703711

They don’t have a hivemind because the hivemind is the minions connection to their respective dragon. No Dragon, no hivemind.

They don’t “eat” magic because they have no Dragon to bring it to. Not only that, but few lesser minions actually have the ability to absorb magic, let alone require it to survive. You mention Glint in this regard, but Glint was a powerful champion. The Pale Tree is the closest comparison one could make to Glint, and it is pretty clear she/it has been sucking up magic for 250 freaking years. Her children literally glow with it. The Tree herself sparkles with magic.

Then there is the biggest issue, one that a lot of people seem to overlook: The Pale Tree is the only entity that would have ANY direct link to the dragon. She is the thing we should be comparing to other Champions/minions, not the actual Sylvari. Ultimately their relationship with Mordremoth is indirect.

Then, yet another big thing, is that the Pale Tree’s awakening/birth is highly unprecedented and can’t be compared to any other champions. Name another champion to awaken 300 years before their dragon was supposed to, and there will be grounds for debate.

Mordremoth had no influence in Tyria before Scarlet woke him up. That means the Tree had a good 250 dragon-magic-free years to be born, grow, suck up “pure” magic, and learn about the world.

Not even Mawdrey can be compared. Mawdrey’s seed was found, grown, and cared for after Mordremoth awoke. It was already under his influence and touched by his power. The Pale Tree’s seed was found, taken away from where Mordremoth slept, grown, and cared for (I feel I can’t stress this enough) TWO-HUNDRED-FIFTY-YEARS before Mordremoth so much as snorted. That alone makes her completely unique in the realm of minions.

From Dream and Nightmare:

In essence, the Dream of Dreams is a vast collected subconscious. The Pale Tree holds the race’s collected knowledge and emotion, like a lake into which is poured the sum of sylvari experience. When a new sylvari is born, it’s as if they draw a bucket of water from that lake, a small portion of the whole. Only a few memories reach the Pale Tree: the most important or those that have the greatest emotional impact or meaning. They can include entire scenes from a sylvari’s life, such as their first battle or their first time cooking an apple pie. They can also be a single poignant moment such as pain, fear, or the face of an enemy.

When a sylvari awakens, the direct connection to the Dream becomes weakened. No longer surrounded by the Dream, their connection to other sylvari becomes more of an empathic bond, capable of receiving and sending strong emotions, but no longer detailed or communicative. It is nothing more than a subtle buzz.

There’s not an active hivemind as with other minions, but there is a connection between the sylvari and the Pale Tree.There’s a few ways it could be viewed:

• The sylvari and the Pale Tree have the internal mechanism all minions do; what enables the hivemind. Being sheltered from the dragon’s influence as she was, it became a sort of closed loop between the Pale Tree and her children. A dragon knows what its minions know- were the Pale Tree to be an active champion of Mordremoth, the experiences of her children would be transferred to her and that well of knowledge would be available to the dragon. The Dream still acts as a collection of knowledge and experience. It’s just closed to the sylvari and their mother tree. This, of course, doesn’t cover how the Pale Tree can draw potential futures from the Dream. But I’ve always imagined what truly kept the Pale Tree safe from Mordremoth’s influence was much grander than simple location, or the kind teachings of a centaur. Something that permits a window, of sorts, in the All or Alchemy.

• The sylvari were not created by Mordremoth, but are extremely susceptible to its corruption. The hivemind in those corrupted sylvari was an empathetic connection already present that it simply repurposes. With the absence of the dragon’s influence, it’s functioning as it naturally should.

The Soundless aren’t simply severing ties with the Dream through their meditation; they’re actively blocking a connection with the very world around them. There are several NPCs debating Soundlessness because they can’t handle the sensory bombardment, and there are sylvari scattered across the world who speak of the new energies of their surroundings. Again, this could mean uncorrupted sylvari may have naturally been that attuned to empathetic energies of other living things, or this is something built into Mordremoth’s minions that has taken a different turn in its absence.

Either way, Soundlessness opens sylvari to corruption because that connection with the Pale Tree has been closed. The capacity to establish such a bond is still present, but now unguarded.

Substantial support for the sylvari always having meant to be dragon minions is the personal storyline with Malyck. He is called the Harbinger, though we never discern of what.

Over the course of the arc, you’re given the option to speak with Amaranda the Lonesome, a sylvari so attuned to the Dream she can’t take being so near the Tree, or seek out his pod with Caithe. Both options have very interesting dialogue.

Amaranda the Lonesome: A distant shore—and darkness. A root, a cave…you. You are the seed. What Ronan knew and never told still lingers in the Dream.
Malyck: What does that mean?
Trahearne: It means my fears are well founded. You were not born of the Pale Tree, Malyck. We cannot see your Dream; you cannot see ours. I must return to the Grove and speak to the Pale Tree.
Knight of Embers: Now I, too, understand.
Knight of Embers: When the grand duchess hears this, she will send the whole court after you, Harbinger!
Knight of Embers: She will never stop! Not even when the Grove itself is bathed in blood!
Malyck: Whatever you’ve discovered, Trahearne, the Nightmare Court now knows as well.
Trahearne: Only the Knight of Embers. If we stop her before she reaches the grand duchess, we can keep this information from the court.
Malyck: But we were to meet Caithe at the Pale Tree!
Trahearne: There is no time. We must track down this knight and silence her. Immediately.

And if you follow Caithe:

Malyck: "The Knight of Embers is a fool. Whatever this “nightmare” is, it led her to obsession and madness. Is your “Dream” the same?"
<Character Name>: “No. The Dream is a vision of hope and a feeling of purpose. It guides us toward the light, not into evil.”
Malyck: “I wish I could say that I understood the difference, but I don’t.”
<Character Name>: “So, Caithe? Can you tell how this pod got so far from the Pale Tree?”
Caithe:That is not the right question. Ask instead, “How did this pod get so close to the Pale Tree?”
<Character Name>: “I don’t understand. What do you mean?”
Caithe: “I must speak with the Mother Tree-but first we must be certain that the Knight of Embers does not report to Duchess Faolain. If she studied this pod, as I did…”
<Character Name>: “But what about Trahearne-we were to meet him at the Pale Tree.”
Caithe: “We have no time for meetings or explanations. The Knight of Embers must be stopped.”
Malyck: “Then we head to Venlin Vale-and to battle. Let us end this knight’s threat once and for all.”

That’s some pretty heavy foreshadowing.

Um, no. That’s just referencing Malyck’s tree.

And, if they really have been planning this dragon minion thing since 2007, not only did they do a crappy job of keeping it secret, since most people guessed/heard of the theory to begin with, they clearly didn’t try to address the inconsistencies that well either.

So, ironically, they’ve just made their own story writers look more incompetent/forgetful than if they had just said “most people liked this theory, so we just rolled with it.”

Trahearne says “his fears”. Why would he fear a second tree? Malyck is referred to as the Harbinger by the Nightmare Court, and Caithe is concerned of what Faolain would understand in studying his pod. Both Trahearne and Caithe react to confirmation of Malyck coming from another tree as Bad News.

People drew those conclusions for a reason. The clues were there, members of the community drew connections. It can’t be said that the plot is a load of kitten with no solid basis while deploring the writers for making it so obvious many people guessed it/heard of the theory before the reveal. The statements are contradictory.

The theory drawn from those clues does not equal poor storytelling, either. It simply means that it’s a truth that is part of Tyria, has been, and could spotted by anybody paying close enough attention. Honestly I hadn’t guessed/heard of sylvari being dragon minions until several months ago, as I never dug into lore or speculation.

For a substantial amount of the playerbase, it was only obvious when they knew what to look for.

What inconsistencies, specifically, are you speaking of? The storytelling isn’t perfect, but I haven’t seen any major inconsistencies aside from the period between the first and second generation of sylvari waking. Any other claimed inconsistencies I’ve come across/heard of can be attributed to characters to having false information themselves or being outright misleading to the player. Neither of these point to an incompetent or forgetful team of writers.

It’s entirely possible there’s something I’ve missed, but just citing “inconsistencies” doesn’t provide any support for your statement.

melonlycake.7348:

Trahearne says “his fears”. Why would he fear a second tree?

Addressed in the personal story step “Snuffing Out Embers” (my emphasis):

Trahearne: This is the place. The Knight of Embers will be waiting to meet the grand duchess. If she is allowed to tell Faolain the truth, the results will be disastrous.

Malyck: Why, Trahearne? What are you not telling us? This is my life! I deserve to know the truth!

Trahearne: You’re right, but yours is not the only life in danger. I’ll tell you the truth, and then, you must make a choice. My research has led me to believe that the Pale Tree is not a unique creature. Legends say that her seed is one of many, found in a cave. That cave has never been found, but it seems at least one of those other seeds was planted. It sprouted the tree which (sic.) bore you, Malyck.
Player character: If that’s true, there could be other cities of sylvari. Other Groves…

Trahearne: Groves untutored by Ventari’s tablet. Do those sylvari dream, I wonder? What inspires them?

Player character: If Faolain finds out, she won’t need the Grove. The court will burn the Pale Tree to the ground and find one they can more easily twist to nightmare.

Trahearne: Yes. If that happens the sylvari race will be no more. Tyria will fall into darkness.

Malyck: No! I won’t let that happen. If I must die to keep this secret, I will do so.

Trahearne: Then we have only one option. The Knight of Embers must die.

The above dialogue is not documented on the wiki. I found it here

How would I go about contacting someone to adding it or adding it myself in a way that doesn’t break the formatting?

Keep in mind that those statements are made by two characters unaware of Mordremoth’s influence on the Sylvari. Our character is a newborn and clearly has no insight, yet provides a possible explanation. Trahearne doesn’t know what Caithe knows, and sees Ventari’s Tablet as the “laws” of the Sylvari.

Without Caithe’s insight, their dialogue doesn’t really mean much in terms of the Mordremoth twist. But in response to why Trahearne “fears” the other tree, yes. But this fear is based on the assumption that the Nightmare Court is capable of taking down the Pale Tree. I imagine they underestimate the strength of the Pale Tree and her army, but maybe Trahearne is more insightful to the strength of the Nightmare Court in comparison.

Koviko.3248:

Keep in mind that those statements are made by two characters unaware of Mordremoth’s influence on the Sylvari. .

The poster did not ask what Caithe’s fears were, they asked for Trahearne’s. I provided them.

Edit: However, Caithe has nearly identical dialogue

Thank you for locating that dialogue, SirMoogie! That does indeed answer why Trahearne would fear the existence of another tree being known to the Nightmare Court.

Caithe: Yours isn’t the only life in danger. Listen to me very carefully, and I’ll explain. For years, I have suspected that the Pale Tree is not a unique creature. Legends tell that the seed from which she sprang was one of many in a cave. That cave has never been found, but it seems that at least one of those other seeds was planted. From it grew the tree which bore you, Malyck.

Player character: If that’s true, there could be other cities of sylvari. Other Groves…

Caithe: Yes. Groves untutored by Ventari’s tablet. Who knows what they would be like? What those sylvari dream?

Player character: If Faolain finds out, she won’t need the Grove. The court will burn the Pale Tree to the ground and find one they can more easily twist to nightmare.

Caithe: If that happens, the sylvari race will be lost forever. Zhaitan and the Elder Dragons would win.

Caithe’s dialogue is nearly identical (again, thank you very much for providing a source!). But when you take into account what she knows, those subtle differences take on an importance. Caithe says that for years, she has suspected that the Pale Tree is not a unique creature; Wynne did not state there were more trees. But Caithe would have known her secret for many years at that point, and the conclusion is easily drawn with that legend.

When she speaks of a Grove untutored by the tablet, she doesn’t question whether or not they dream. She wonders what they’d be like, and what it is that they dream. Essentially she’s afraid of what a tree that may have grown under Mordremoth’s influence would produce. The dreams given to the children of the Pale Tree serve the greater good; the potential for children of another tree is quite unsettling.

Where Trahearne confirms the player character’s suspicion that the Nightmare Court would burn the Pale Tree to the ground because they’ve got an easier target available, Caithe does not. She only says that if that happens, the sylvari will be lost forever, that the Elder Dragons would win. So far as Caithe is aware, the Pale Tree is the only of her kind not held by Mordremoth, that the sylvari born from her are the only ones who aren’t thralls of the dragon. Having spoken to the Mother Tree following the final encounter with Wynne, she’d understand that it’s her influence that protects them from Mordremoth; so, without her, the sylvari are lost.

This would be a great example of one character (Trahearne) sharing an honest perspective that isn’t quite on the mark, and another (Caithe) almost misleading the player character.

It could, of course, be argued that the way I’m interpreting it is something the writers took advantage of; a somewhat ambiguous string of dialogue that could be used to say “hey we planned it all along look at this thing in the game!”

But the playerbase didn’t get the theory of sylvari being dragon minions solely from this personal story aspect. Little hints like this are strewn throughout the story. They could be said to be coincidental- but that seems like a stretch. Accepting Anet’s claim that yes, this has been planned from the start, makes this an example of very good storytelling. Sure, other aspects may have been clumsily handled. As I said previously, the writing isn’t flawless. But I haven’t seen solid evidence of it being as slapdash as some very vocally claim, and the sylvari having always meant to be servants of the dragon does not look contrived.