Guild Wars 2

Stealth.9324:

Is MM Necro is a power build to begin with?

@Zelulose: Do you even see any DD Elementalist complain about dealing with Engineer since he can immune and kite, nullifying melee dams. At least you guys have option to switch to Staff. Eles don’t.

You talk to me like my main is necro. My main is Lucky Leaf a ranger that got its pet nerfed. Ironically the nerf didn’t hurt my ranger much. I do also play necro, engineer, many mesmer builds, and have tried desperately to play a guardian and warrior.

I’m leaving this thread for a while. I don’t really have a point, but I do like to engage in understanding other player’s opinions. Feel free to continue this discussion.

Zelulose.8695:

This is also true. Engineer’s access to swiftness and immunity to cripple, immobilize, and chill (AR) allow them to easily kite melee damage while at just below 25% hp nullifying quite a bit of melee damage. On the other-hand, engineers have quite an arsenal of immobilize and cripple. This creates killing an engineer difficult even for some power builds.

Regarding the main weapon, either you have a block (p/s) or an immobilize (rifle or p/p) that can cripple in the case of glue shot.
Regarding utilities…there are some, but they are all in different kits or utilities. We may have a good variety, but either we take those or we take stun breakers/condition removals/other.

so let me get this straight, someones complaining that there’s is a counter to their full condition spec……uhhhhhhh what, your complaining that you have a counter in a competitive based game, a counter that is available on 1 class in a competitive based game, one thing that counters your 1 thing IN A COMPETITIVE BASED GAME, really guys really, i don’t think this is more appropriate then right now but L2P.

seriously though you cant expect to beat something that is made to counter you without out playing them, but then again you could just run a power build that is available to every class in a certain degree, but that would have a counter to…..i know wtf right why cant you beat everything it sucks.

I hate using the term L2P (so I won’t), but in GW2 we have easy access to all professions in tPvP and can try them all. Why some people won’t is a mystery to me.

I have a video from an engineer’s perspective using AR against a condition mesmer (WvW). Due to a disparity in skill level, he trounced me rather easily. However the fight lasted at least twice as long as it would have, thanks to AR. I believe I eventually went down because I had condition overload with the help of a little bit of direct damage.

I’m not claiming OP or balanced, but I plan to edit the video and share it to help educate both sides of the argument.

So what i learned from this thread so far

1- With automated response, i am a living god under 25% hp. Necro can no longer do any sort of damage!

2- Necro dont want to l2p or adjust, they want their counter to be nerfed so they can kill it.

3-The game should be tuned for 1v1 fight

4-Some skills on my engi got new abilities i didnt know about and i can double take grandmaster traits!

Seriously, i did give it a whirl next week and a good necro was still able to kill me with it. In most aspect of the game, that trait is near worthless, HgH is much better. Its only a somewhat counter to bad necro running full condi.

darkchicken.8692:

So what i learned from this thread so far

1- With automated response, i am a living god under 25% hp. Necro can no longer do any sort of damage!

2- Necro dont want to l2p or adjust, they want their counter to be nerfed so they can kill it.

3-The game should be tuned for 1v1 fight

4-Some skills on my engi got new abilities i didnt know about and i can double take grandmaster traits!

Seriously, i did give it a whirl next week and a good necro was still able to kill me with it. In most aspect of the game, that trait is near worthless, HgH is much better. Its only a somewhat counter to bad necro running full condi.

As I’ve stated many time’s Mr. ObviouslyDefensiveEngi. This effects melee power builds FAR more than ranged condition players. We can’t slow, chill, immobilize or otherwise CC you, meaning you can run around with your speedy kits while we look stupid. Also 1v1 DOES matter. Where there’s only 5 people per team in a map 1v1 happens a TON, the sooner you realize that in small scale pvp the more balance the better, that would be great. I’m sick of hearing “you shouldn’t be able to kill x” or “x shouldn’nt be able to do this”. “Shouldn’t” is a terrible design flaw and is boring. Bunkers SHOULD DIE 1v1 IF outplayed, but generally be able to last longer than glass. So now that all of that is off my chest…

Stop pretending this is a necro condi flavor of the month defense only. Its far worse on ANY melee build out there that relies on condies to keep on on their target…

ronpierce.2760:

darkchicken.8692:

So what i learned from this thread so far

1- With automated response, i am a living god under 25% hp. Necro can no longer do any sort of damage!

2- Necro dont want to l2p or adjust, they want their counter to be nerfed so they can kill it.

3-The game should be tuned for 1v1 fight

4-Some skills on my engi got new abilities i didnt know about and i can double take grandmaster traits!

Seriously, i did give it a whirl next week and a good necro was still able to kill me with it. In most aspect of the game, that trait is near worthless, HgH is much better. Its only a somewhat counter to bad necro running full condi.

As I’ve stated many time’s Mr. ObviouslyDefensiveEngi. This effects melee power builds FAR more than ranged condition players. We can’t slow, chill, immobilize or otherwise CC you, meaning you can run around with your speedy kits while we look stupid. Also 1v1 DOES matter. Where there’s only 5 people per team in a map 1v1 happens a TON, the sooner you realize that in small scale pvp the more balance the better, that would be great. I’m sick of hearing “you shouldn’t be able to kill x” or “x shouldn’nt be able to do this”. “Shouldn’t” is a terrible design flaw and is boring. Bunkers SHOULD DIE 1v1 IF outplayed, but generally be able to last longer than glass. So now that all of that is off my chest…

Stop pretending this is a necro condi flavor of the month defense only. Its far worse on ANY melee build out there that relies on condies to keep on on their target…

So to you, every one has to fight to death with no ability to disengage? Dude,this is NOT a BLOODY ARENA.

Stealth.9324:

ronpierce.2760:

darkchicken.8692:

So what i learned from this thread so far

1- With automated response, i am a living god under 25% hp. Necro can no longer do any sort of damage!

2- Necro dont want to l2p or adjust, they want their counter to be nerfed so they can kill it.

3-The game should be tuned for 1v1 fight

4-Some skills on my engi got new abilities i didnt know about and i can double take grandmaster traits!

Seriously, i did give it a whirl next week and a good necro was still able to kill me with it. In most aspect of the game, that trait is near worthless, HgH is much better. Its only a somewhat counter to bad necro running full condi.

As I’ve stated many time’s Mr. ObviouslyDefensiveEngi. This effects melee power builds FAR more than ranged condition players. We can’t slow, chill, immobilize or otherwise CC you, meaning you can run around with your speedy kits while we look stupid. Also 1v1 DOES matter. Where there’s only 5 people per team in a map 1v1 happens a TON, the sooner you realize that in small scale pvp the more balance the better, that would be great. I’m sick of hearing “you shouldn’t be able to kill x” or “x shouldn’nt be able to do this”. “Shouldn’t” is a terrible design flaw and is boring. Bunkers SHOULD DIE 1v1 IF outplayed, but generally be able to last longer than glass. So now that all of that is off my chest…

Stop pretending this is a necro condi flavor of the month defense only. Its far worse on ANY melee build out there that relies on condies to keep on on their target…

So to you, every one has to fight to death with no ability to disengage? Dude,this is NOT a BLOODY ARENA.

People should be more likely to die… yes…. You get points for killing, classes like warrior and necro can’t leave, its actually a downside of having them on your team because if they’re losing a fight, the enemy gets 5 points. If a thief or AR engi or Mesmer is dying, its like oh, I blow, I’ll just run…

So if one day,there are no point for killing, would you still want to kill?

Stealth.9324:

So if one day,there are no point for killing, would you still want to kill?

yes, because someone who dies is also 15 seconds out of the game and go to a spawn point. Dying is part of the game…

ronpierce.2760:

Stealth.9324:

So if one day,there are no point for killing, would you still want to kill?

yes, because someone who dies is also 15 seconds out of the game and go to a spawn point. Dying is part of the game…

And so knowing when need to be disengage is also part of the game. And so choosing a class that incapable of stoping them from disengaging is also part of the game. If you want to outrun people, don’t play Necro. If you want to be a Condi Pressure, don’t play Warrior, simple as that.

ronpierce.2760:

darkchicken.8692:

So what i learned from this thread so far

1- With automated response, i am a living god under 25% hp. Necro can no longer do any sort of damage!

2- Necro dont want to l2p or adjust, they want their counter to be nerfed so they can kill it.

3-The game should be tuned for 1v1 fight

4-Some skills on my engi got new abilities i didnt know about and i can double take grandmaster traits!

Seriously, i did give it a whirl next week and a good necro was still able to kill me with it. In most aspect of the game, that trait is near worthless, HgH is much better. Its only a somewhat counter to bad necro running full condi.

As I’ve stated many time’s Mr. ObviouslyDefensiveEngi. This effects melee power builds FAR more than ranged condition players. We can’t slow, chill, immobilize or otherwise CC you, meaning you can run around with your speedy kits while we look stupid. Also 1v1 DOES matter. Where there’s only 5 people per team in a map 1v1 happens a TON, the sooner you realize that in small scale pvp the more balance the better, that would be great. I’m sick of hearing “you shouldn’t be able to kill x” or “x shouldn’nt be able to do this”. “Shouldn’t” is a terrible design flaw and is boring. Bunkers SHOULD DIE 1v1 IF outplayed, but generally be able to last longer than glass. So now that all of that is off my chest…

Stop pretending this is a necro condi flavor of the month defense only. Its far worse on ANY melee build out there that relies on condies to keep on on their target…

Well you can still land burst. And you should always have a ranged option if not thats your fault. And an engi bunker does lose vs. good builds.

Here is my promised AR video. My opponent was far more skilled than me and I made many mistakes. Please don’t judge me I know I’m a noob. But the point of this video is to demonstrate how the Automated Response grandmaster trait works from the Engineer’s perspective, how it really helped me during one phase of the fight, and one way it may be overcome.

http://youtu.be/JBVT812XMWs

Yeah, I would agree that this trait, along with the minor trait that is an 8% chance to be immune to a condition is pretty stupid and shouldn’t be in the game. Yes, it’s not like it’s uncounterable, but in 1v1s against a condition class this is kind of stupid. It’s one thing to build around beating condition classes, but I think this is straight up way too much.

So how do you propose building around beating condi classes? Currently there is nothing to deal with it. Ele/Guard traits aren’t as good as this and they don’t last against necros in their current state. And the 8% lawls so less than 1/10 times you may get a condition converted. That is a terrible minor trait compared to other classes. Way worse.

Follidus.8027:

Yeah, I would agree that this trait, along with the minor trait that is an 8% chance to be immune to a condition is pretty stupid and shouldn’t be in the game. Yes, it’s not like it’s uncounterable, but in 1v1s against a condition class this is kind of stupid. It’s one thing to build around beating condition classes, but I think this is straight up way too much.

Good lord, I will agree with this change IF make Condition being affected by Toughness and Protection, no AOE Condition Spam, no class can proc 4 Conditions under 10s with AUTO ATTACK. Then we can discuss.

This has been my experience. It’s like Self Regulating Defenses in that if it triggers when we’re loaded with conditions, it is no help at all. Look how fast he dropped the second time. Unreal. If you want to really kitten your build vs everything else you could use Lyssa Runes or Elixir C or both and do a complete condi wipe. Although I challenge anyone to time it just before they hit 25% in an actual pvp situation.

Even then one has a 90 second cooldown, the other 40 and neither break stun so good luck squeezing your stun breaker into that build. We have a pretty poor crop of Stun Breakers as it is, two being tied to our toolbelt (one from a seldom used turret). Also, I wouldn’t dare run Lyssa Runes or Elixir C as long as Corrupt Boon is seeing wide spread play.

jportell.2197:

So how do you propose building around beating condi classes? Currently there is nothing to deal with it. Ele/Guard traits aren’t as good as this and they don’t last against necros in their current state. And the 8% lawls so less than 1/10 times you may get a condition converted. That is a terrible minor trait compared to other classes. Way worse.

We play guard/ele/ele/mesmer in team fights and seem to do fine.

But regardless, I’m not saying condition damage shouldn’t be changed (less spammy), but I think if we’re just talking about these immunity traits, then yes I think they’re dumb and need to be changed to a duration decrease that isn’t near 100%.

Manuhell.2759:

It is already balanced. 25% hp are quite few hp anyway and you’re still subject to control skills beside fear. And staying at less than 25% hp means you’re a walking target for burst damage.
It counters heavily specialized condition builds while putting yourself in severe danger toward any build with some power. You can notice it more now just because everyone and his brother runs a full-condi necro. Just call someone else in your team to fight this opponent.
And if your team is made just of full-condi characters, it is just your team’s fault.

Oh right, there’s only premades playing this game. Silly us.

I would be fine if we get something like ranger and remove 3 conditions every 10s (4 with signet), which is deff alot stronger than 100% reduction while you run around with 4k hp or less struggling to survive.

Besides, people might logg on an engi by mistake and learn how easy it is to play around this trait : )

You know, I main an engineer. I’ve used one in sPVP for a long time. And I have have used a dozen different weapon and equipment combinations on that engineer. During all that time, Automated Response has not saved me once.

Not. Once.

The reasons for this are quite simple: while engineers certainly are great at doling out conditions, engineers themselves are only slightly above adequate at removing them. In that department we have very few effective options. I’ll list some of them:

Cleaning Formula 409. This cleanses one random condition each time you use an elixir. Problem is, you probably only have 3 elixirs at most, and so to us Cleaning Formula 409 against another condition build you have to burn all of your cooldowns and waste 5 seconds doing absolutely nothing but chugging down elixirs in order to get the effects of 409. So you can blow your heal, or blow your burst, or blow your stun breaker, or just use elixir C and have no need for 409 anyway. But elixir C doesn’t do much anything that useful, either.

409 is only useful for passive cleansing against lightly applied conditions. You get hit with something like Signet of Spite and you are helpless, either from being unable to clean those conditions or being unable to do anything else after cleaning those conditions.

Healing Turret: this cleanses 2 conditions every 20 seconds or so. Maybe 2 conditions every 15 seconds if someone isn’t smart enough to destroy the turret when it is on the ground, spitting out AoE regen for everyone. This is fairly average as far as condition cleanses go, and is matched by the condition cleaning available to pretty much every class in the game. The big problem is that the heal will frequently vault you over the 25% HP mark, making the cleansing moot in respect to AR.

Elixir C: This is also fairly standard in that it is a single full cleanse on a rather long timer. 40 seconds, and to boot it just gives random boons with a 5 second duration. Elixir C is rarely ever used in tournaments because it doesn’t do anything but clean conditions, and competition for utility slots on engis is fierce.

Rocket Boots: Cures movement disabling conditions only. This is something half the classes in the game have already.

And from there, we have a few scattered condition cleanses, like 1 in Super Elixir, a slow one in Toss Elixir R, 1 in Med Kit, immunity to blindness, etc. All in all, this adds up to make it so in many Engineer builds, there is a few spots of condition removal in different places, or one big cleanse fixed on via Elixir C.

The only strategy that would really make sense using AR is to use Elixir C, and just refuse to actually pop Elixir kittenil you hit that 25% health mark. This leads to a big problem though. By doing this, you are letting a condition build beat the snot out of you until you are at the brink of death, and then utilizing a risky maneuver to go “ha-ha, I’m immune to part of your damage”. You will have a relatively strong enemy to still fight against, since completely unmitigated conditions will disable and destroy a player with no way to fight back against them. If you get stunned or knocked down, then you have 2 seconds to live. And the worst case scenario is if they have highly increased condition duration, since that increased duration will go right through AR. Th common necro specs ATM run with a 50% increase in bleed duration, so overall you are only cutting the effectiveness of bleeds by 2/3rds.

There is a big risk to this as well: if you encounter anything that isn’t a pure, rabid condition build, AR is completely useless. Power builds and Hybrid builds will just auto attack you into oblivion at that point if they can’t finish you via some combo they undoubtedly have, and even a carrion condition build will have enough power to slap you to death without the extra condition damage. Also, it will never save you in a 1 vs. 2 scenario.

Because of this, it is a fairly bad trait. It only works when things go precisely right. Not a pure condi build? It does nothing. Get CCed near death? It does nothing. Forced to pop your cleanses beforehand? You’ll get eaten up. Facing a build specced with big condi duration increases? It’ll go right through you.

Suffice to say, I’ve stopped using it. The alchemy tree has far more useful utility in it than AR, especially since AR is competing with the epic trait of HGH.

I do find it hilarious that engineers have evolved into some kind of boogeyman for classes to fight against. I’ve read a lot of complaints about how engineers can apparently counter everything that you throw at them (EXCEPT FOR BLOODY CONDITION DURATION!!!) and have limited access to tools.

I find it hilarious because it both speaks about how infrequently engineers are played, and also about how good the class is themselves. I feel I should talk about it here:

The engineer’s greatest strength is their weakness. We engi’s don’t have an overcentralized build that is clearly stronger than the others. Repeated nerfs have seen to that. Instead, we have something much scarier on our side: the unknown. Without a centralized build, opposing players truly have no clue what an engineer will do until they do it. Swapping out utilities and stats is done more as a matter of preference, and not a matter of necessity, and changing just 1 utility or using a different trait utility can make for very different strengths on what would otherwise be the exact same build.

It is the fear of the unknown that makes us so intimidating. There’s a saying in war: “If you don’t know where the enemy is, then the enemy is everywhere”. It applies here as well: If you don’t know what an engineer does, than the engineer does everything. You can rest a bit easier to know that the competition in our utility slots is fierce. The different kits and utility lines are all fragmented heavily in our traits, making it so building effectively can be limiting. With every choice for a utility slot we sacrifice something big that also could’ve gone there.

Take, for example, the feared HGH build. Now, I’ve seen many HGH builds run 3 elixirs for their utilities, and do quite bad. Its simple to know why: they lack an offensive option. Our weapon skills are… meh at best. So then you swap out an elixir for something else that can do damage, usually a kit. Then what do you lose? Do you lose the burst damage + projectile reflection? Do you lose the stunbreak/evade + stealth/stability? Do you lose the endurance regen + aoe Rez? Do you lose the long duration fury/might/swiftness/retaliation? Once you’ve made your choice, then you come up with more weaknesses. Maybe you don’t have any control skills to make your hits count. Maybe you don’t have a stun breaker anymore. Maybe you can’t cleanse conditions anymore. Maybe you no longer have any defensive utilities.

Out of all 5 classes I play, the engineer is the hardest one to build for. As soon as an engineer thinks they have something, their weakness is going to walk right up and gank them, and that engineer goes right back to the drawing board.

My best advice for fighting an engineer is patience with steady pressure. Once you learn what their utilities are, then you can devise a plan of attack.

I like how people ends justifying Automated Response with the current state of Necromancers.

It is not a justification. Necromancers are OP and we all know that, but thit doesn’t mean that Automated Response is a completely stupid trait.

It is pretty much like Moa. It shouldn’t be in the game at all considering how stupid it is.

I also find kinda funny how people are saying that Automated Response is worthless and that they don’t pick it but they still put any efforts to keep it in the game.

Nobody said it’s worthless. The vast majority of us are saying it’s useful, but not overpowered and if you’ve played an Engineer you would know this. It isn’t a sure thing against conditions but sometimes it helps us survive and reset a fight. That makes it a good trait because it isn’t a guarantee against all enemies. I think anyone that learns how to maximize its effectiveness deserves the rewards it gives. Unlike spamming all cooldowns and watching someone melt under your conditions, using AR to it’s full potential takes timing and skill.

Eviator.9746:

Here is my promised AR video. My opponent was far more skilled than me and I made many mistakes. Please don’t judge me I know I’m a noob. But the point of this video is to demonstrate how the Automated Response grandmaster trait works from the Engineer’s perspective, how it really helped me during one phase of the fight, and one way it may be overcome.

http://youtu.be/JBVT812XMWs

I just wanted to thank you for posting this if I haven’t already. Sadly all of the naysayers in this thread are ignoring it because it smashes their fragile argument to smithereens.

I especially like where you note when AR kicks in. Apparently condi players think fights should be over in 16 seconds (fight didn’t start until :09 and you would have been downed at :25).

jportell.2197:

Romek.4201:

@Sorrow.3264

before you post more bull …. plz read the trait again and than engi patchnotes from last balancing patch

THEIR IS NO IMUNITY

100% duration reduction. Meaning base attacks are 0% in duration. So if a necro somehow traits for over 100% increase in certain conditions they will tick on the engi.

You’re wrong.

100% duration reduction actually means that you reduce whatever duration their condis have by 100%, making you basically immune. Whether you have 0% or 50% condi duration on your necro, you will reduce the modified duration by 100%.

Nothing ticks, nothing sticks…everybody wants a fix.

Med.6150:

jportell.2197:

Romek.4201:

@Sorrow.3264

before you post more bull …. plz read the trait again and than engi patchnotes from last balancing patch

THEIR IS NO IMUNITY

100% duration reduction. Meaning base attacks are 0% in duration. So if a necro somehow traits for over 100% increase in certain conditions they will tick on the engi.

You’re wrong.

100% duration reduction actually means that you reduce whatever duration their condis have by 100%, making you basically immune. Whether you have 0% or 50% condi duration on your necro, you will reduce the modified duration by 100%.

Nothing ticks, nothing sticks…everybody wants a fix.

HOLY CRAP! That. Rhymes. You MUST be right.

{ stop lying }

He’s whining about the effect without considering the context, costs and dangers of actively using it. That are the factors that make it balanced.

Grackleflint.4956:

Eviator.9746:

Here is my promised AR video. My opponent was far more skilled than me and I made many mistakes. Please don’t judge me I know I’m a noob. But the point of this video is to demonstrate how the Automated Response grandmaster trait works from the Engineer’s perspective, how it really helped me during one phase of the fight, and one way it may be overcome.

http://youtu.be/JBVT812XMWs

I just wanted to thank you for posting this if I haven’t already. Sadly all of the naysayers in this thread are ignoring it because it smashes their fragile argument to smithereens.

I watched it. However, you posted a video without any condition stripping kits or utilities. The utilities you had don’t work to strip conditions. Also, the fact that you could stay alive that long without condition removal besides AR is slightly ridiculous. Lastly, you could have have just let yourself lose. But it is nice to see a video that targets AR.

Manuhell.2759:

He’s whining about the effect without considering the context, costs and dangers of actively using it. That are the factors that make it balanced.

A stupid skill can’t be made balanced by other factors if it is stupid by itself.

If you have a skill which instantly kills your enemy at 0.1% chance is still a stupid skill, regardless how low is the chance of success.

sorrow.2364:

Manuhell.2759:

He’s whining about the effect without considering the context, costs and dangers of actively using it. That are the factors that make it balanced.

A stupid skill can’t be made balanced by other factors if it is stupid by itself.

If you have a skill which instantly kills your enemy at 0.1% chance is still a stupid skill, regardless how low is the chance of success.

So the problem isn’t anymore about the balance, just you finding it stupid?
Well, that’s just your opinion, then.

Manuhell.2759:

He’s whining about the effect without considering the context, costs and dangers of actively using it. That are the factors that make it balanced.

I get what you are saying, but if that’s the case, why can’t rangers be immune to physical damage with bark skin while under 25% health. Sure rangers can remove conditions to some extent (but they have to sacrifice pet condition removal) So conditions will still kill them right? Just like engineers have immunity to conditions while under 25% health but can still use weakness and protection and toughness to stop physical damage from being effective.

Is there a visual cue for when AR kicks in?

Manuhell.2759:

So the problem isn’t anymore about the balance, just you finding it stupid?
Well, that’s just your opinion, then.

Stupid in terms of balance, obviously.
The example clearly shows what I meant.

Zelulose.8695:

I get what you are saying, but if that’s the case, why can’t rangers be immune to physical damage with bark skin while under 25% health. Sure rangers can remove conditions to some extent (but they have to sacrifice pet condition removal) So conditions will still kill them right? Just like engineers have immunity to conditions while under 25% health but can still use weakness and protection and toughness to stop physical damage from being effective.

1) Conditions already inflicted must be cleansed or you would die anyway – so that alone will require at least a skill. Direct damage would simply stop working immediatly.
2)The only skills engineers’ have got to apply weakness are the elixir gun autoattack and the first downed skill. Also, there is no skill that reliably gives protection – either you get it randomly (by elixir H) or there are traits that can give it in certain situations.
Regarding toughness, sure, it decreases the damage…but it doesn’t come for free. If you spec for toughness, your hp will be quite low while the trait is active. If you spec for vitality you’ll have a bit more hp, but you’ll also take more damage from direct attacks.
If you spec for both of them, you won’t be able to do anything other than tank, cause your damage is really, really bad.
Also, i would add, no decent access to stability outside for the elite skill – and that’s assuming they will use Elixir X.
Otherwise, there is 1s stability on a toolbelt skill of a turret, usable only if the turret isn’t in use.

sorrow.2364:

Stupid in terms of balance, obviously.
The example clearly shows what I meant.

Yeah, that trait would be really useless, especially for a grandmaster one.

@Manuhell.2759 Engineers have alot of traits for protection and one is in the same trait line a AR. Furthermore, simply by choosing Automatic response, you get transmute which has an 8% chance to convert conditions into boons, and hidden flask (elixer b) for extra retaliation. The Elixir gun provides a condition removing, regenerating light field, retaliation from the combo field, poison, bleeding, and weakness. and regen from the tool tip just by choosing the elixir gun alone. You have two utilities to chose from now and any weapon you want.
Essentially now you have protection, weakness, retaliation, a light field (to heal, grant more retaliation, and remove conditions), poison, and bleeding. And you haven’t even spent 40 trait points, chosen 2 utilities weapons, sigils, armor, runes, or an amulet.

(if you need more defense look at the rune of earth/grove)

Zelulose.8695:

I watched it. However, you posted a video without any condition stripping kits or utilities. The utilities you had don’t work to strip conditions. Also, the fact that you could stay alive that long without condition removal besides AR is slightly ridiculous. Lastly, you could have have just let yourself lose. But it is nice to see a video that targets AR.

Careful, you are helping make others’ point. I interpret this as saying that I could have made my build even more specialized by gimping my other utilities just so I counter condi builds.

FYI I didn’t record this fight because of the AR discussion. This guy was kicking everyone’s butt and I wanted to duel him to get a better idea of how his build worked. I didn’t even consider the impact AR had on the fight until I read this thread. Also, this was the second of two duels with him. In the first duel, which I failed to record, I was downed in 15 seconds.

I would like to see a video that demonstrates in a real fight why AR counters condi builds. Perhaps at the highest levels it does, I don’t know. At my level skill still trumps build.

Pyriall.5027:

Is there a visual cue for when AR kicks in?

The only way I know to tell is that a skill that should apply conditions simply doesn’t.

Zelulose.8695:

@Manuhell.2759 Engineers have alot of traits for protection and one is in the same trait line a AR. Furthermore, simply by choosing Automatic response, you get transmute which has an 8% chance to convert conditions into boons, and hidden flask (elixer b) for extra retaliation. The Elixir gun provides a condition removing, regenerating light field, retaliation from the combo field, poison, bleeding, and weakness. and regen from the tool tip just by choosing the elixir gun alone. You have two utilities to chose from now and any weapon you want.
Essentially now you have protection, weakness, retaliation, a light field (to heal, grant more retaliation, and remove conditions), poison, and bleeding. And you haven’t even spent 40 trait points, chosen 2 utilities weapons, sigils, armor, runes, or an amulet.

(if you need more defense look at the rune of earth/grove)

You are theorycrafting. I think you need to play it.

Eviator.9746:

Zelulose.8695:

@Manuhell.2759 Engineers have alot of traits for protection and one is in the same trait line a AR. Furthermore, simply by choosing Automatic response, you get transmute which has an 8% chance to convert conditions into boons, and hidden flask (elixer b) for extra retaliation. The Elixir gun provides a condition removing, regenerating light field, retaliation from the combo field, poison, bleeding, and weakness. and regen from the tool tip just by choosing the elixir gun alone. You have two utilities to chose from now and any weapon you want.
Essentially now you have protection, weakness, retaliation, a light field (to heal, grant more retaliation, and remove conditions), poison, and bleeding. And you haven’t even spent 40 trait points, chosen 2 utilities weapons, sigils, armor, runes, or an amulet.

(if you need more defense look at the rune of earth/grove)

You are theorycrafting. I think you need to play it.

Oh I have. You should mess around with it till you get it right. XD

Zelulose.8695:

Oh I have. You should mess around with it till you get it right. XD

Alas my skill is my limitation. I would love to see some videos of you in your AR engineer rolling over condi builds. It would open up a lot of eyes in this thread.

Eviator.9746:

Zelulose.8695:

Oh I have. You should mess around with it till you get it right. XD

Alas my skill is my limitation. I would love to see some videos of you in your AR engineer rolling over condi builds. It would open up a lot of eyes in this thread.

It wouldn’t prove anything. I’ve posted videos about things but they get shutdown and if I posted wins they would just say I’m fighting bad players. But yes, if videos could be proven honest then I would be posting alot of them. It would a much more effective way to show rather than tell players things about skills.

In any-case, I made this forum to try and get the devs to not necessarily nerf AR but so they could pay more attention to it because it possibly could be a little bit too much of a counter to all condition builds. If they find it to be too much they might want to buff other condition classes with a bit of extra finisher damage or nerf it if it really is that overpowered. Its their call not ours XD

Its still a bigger counter to any melee class that relies on conditions to stay in range like warriors, dagger necros, you know. the stuff that cant spam teleports basically. xD

Zelulose.8695:

@Manuhell.2759 Engineers have alot of traits for protection and one is in the same trait line a AR. Furthermore, simply by choosing Automatic response, you get transmute which has an 8% chance to convert conditions into boons, and hidden flask (elixer b) for extra retaliation. The Elixir gun provides a condition removing, regenerating light field, retaliation from the combo field, poison, bleeding, and weakness. and regen from the tool tip just by choosing the elixir gun alone. You have two utilities to chose from now and any weapon you want.
Essentially now you have protection, weakness, retaliation, a light field (to heal, grant more retaliation, and remove conditions), poison, and bleeding. And you haven’t even spent 40 trait points, chosen 2 utilities weapons, sigils, armor, runes, or an amulet.

(if you need more defense look at the rune of earth/grove)

Those “lot of traits” are two traits, and that’s assuming you get them. In particular, the one you mention gives 3s protection when disabled, on a five* seconds cooldown. The other one gives 3s protection when hit by a critical, 20s cooldown. That’s all the protection we can get. No skill can give that reliably. And being CC at less than 25% hp is quite dangerous anyway.
Hidden flask is activated at 75% hp, so unless we get instabursted into 25% hp we shouldn’t even count its effect.
Transmute has an 8% chance, as you said. Not exactly something we can rely on, but it is a minor one, so it is still better than nothing.
Regarding Super Elixir…it removes a single condition, by itself. But even then, it isn’t like we can use it at leisure – we must purposely stay below the 25% treshhold if we want to maintain the effect. Also, the toolbelt is a stunbreaker, so it shouldn’t be used unless it is really needed.
And weakness and bleeding are given by the autoattack (and are also the only purpose of using it). I doubt one would spam that autoattack instead of using other skills, though…the damage is obviously low. And sure, we can get retaliation by the combo field if we spend blast finishers on it or heal conditions if we are really near to the enemy and we use a full projectile finisher – but that also means getting all his attacks.
Also, to deal decent damage with that kit, you should use a condition build. That means you’ll either lack toughness or vitality. Otherwise you’re just bunkering with it, and that poison and bleeding will do negligible damage.
So, basically, you just took some info, omitting the important details, and clumped all of them together to try to prove a point.

*sorry, can’t write it in numbers, it gets censored

Grackleflint.4956:

Med.6150:

jportell.2197:

Romek.4201:

@Sorrow.3264

before you post more bull …. plz read the trait again and than engi patchnotes from last balancing patch

THEIR IS NO IMUNITY

100% duration reduction. Meaning base attacks are 0% in duration. So if a necro somehow traits for over 100% increase in certain conditions they will tick on the engi.

You’re wrong.

100% duration reduction actually means that you reduce whatever duration their condis have by 100%, making you basically immune. Whether you have 0% or 50% condi duration on your necro, you will reduce the modified duration by 100%.

Nothing ticks, nothing sticks…everybody wants a fix.

HOLY CRAP! That. Rhymes. You MUST be right.

{ stop lying }

Could you please test things before you accuse people of lying? Reading tool tips and trait descriptions just proves that you can read. Testing how abilities actually work is something else entirely.

So what I have got from this thread.

1. Automated Response isn’t OP because they are immune to condo spamming HGH/necros. It’s because melee classes can’t immob or cripple them and engi’s also have perma swiftness all in one!

Rebuttle: In tourneys if it is a bunker engi (why else would they have AR) the are likely going to take or something and protection injection or blood injection in the alchemy line over invigorating speed. So that point is moot. You can catch the engi with your leaps and they are still liable to get stunned as well. Immune to conditions=/= immune to CC.

2. It takes no skill to make use of.

Rebuttle: While it is something that kicks in automatically at 25% (automated response lawls) it has a strict requirement and a heavy investment. 25% health on a medium HP class is around 4k or so. This is not something that is hard for many classes to grind through if anything it gives the engi maybe 10-20 more seconds for their teammates to get there and help. Which is kinda the point. Just throwin it out there.

3. If an engi is running this trait they are near useless (ostrich eggs)

Rebuttle: Nothing could be further from the truth a full on bunker engi with elixir infused bombs and automated response can sit and contest a point for quite sometime and if it is 2v1 or 3v1 mind you they won’t be killing anyone but the point is to keep it contested. I’m sorry but that is far from useless. Even if the engi winds up dying on the point their team is ticking away for other points on the map.

I’m sorry guys but this trait is a hard counter to condition AOE meta which is really out of hand. It has gotten so spam happy that even warriors are running contion builds and so are thieves (the burst thief just dies so fast lately). Just because your condi spam necro can’t beat this engi maybe you should consider carrion or some power/condi damage runes. This is definitely not a trait that should be touched.

A bunker engi can run 0/0/0/30/10 and have perma Swiftness, Vigor, immune to conditions under 25%. Just… thought I’d throw that out there. That’s not hard to achieve, and yes it’s pretty mindless… And people STILL refuse to recognize this effects melee classes that rely on conditions to close gaps far greater than the kitten condi spams everyone is so set on. Get over the condi spam its going to get nerfed…

love point 1^^ now automated response is op cause melee cant slow the engi? and the poster before said melees are warrior and dagger necro – not the thief cause he can beam around

seriously? an engi with this trait is an bunker and he wanna hold the node hes siting on and when he run and you cant catch him you alraedy have won – take the node

dont understand the problem here

edit: ronpierce your point is pointlesss – the engi dont run from you with this trait^^