Guild Wars 2

Romek.4201:

love point 1^^ now automated response is op cause melee cant slow the engi? and the poster before said melees are warrior and dagger necro – not the thief cause he can beam around

seriously? an engi with this trait is an bunker and he wanna hold the node hes siting on and when he run and you cant catch him you alraedy have won – take the node

dont understand the problem here

edit: ronpierce your point is pointlesss – the engi dont run from you with this trait^^

You can kite a melee with cripple on a tiny kitten point… The point isn’t a 130 radius…. Get with it. If you have this and you stand on point and take shots to the face and don’t exploit the rim and perma vigor, you’re the bad one…

The last several posts have just been theorycrafting. Video or it didn’t happen.

ronpierce.2760:

A bunker engi can run 0/0/0/30/10 and have perma Swiftness, Vigor, immune to conditions under 25%. Just… thought I’d throw that out there. That’s not hard to achieve, and yes it’s pretty mindless… And people STILL refuse to recognize this effects melee classes that rely on conditions to close gaps far greater than the kitten condi spams everyone is so set on. Get over the condi spam its going to get nerfed…

Except a bunker engi is going at least 10 into explosives because they want bombs to have a bigger radius (especially if running elixir infused bombs=bigger team heals) then that also means they are going 30 into inventions for elixir infused bombs. And necros are going to get nerfed condi spam is still being untouched. If the engi is bunker they DON’T CARE ABOUT SWIFTNESS! you also act as if melee builds have absolutely no access to ranged weapons. If you don’t bring a ranged weaponset that is YOUR FAULT. not the engis. Maybe build smarter?

Eviator.9746:

The last several posts have just been theorycrafting. Video or it didn’t happen.

I’ve been pvping for quite a while, I don’t need a video to show you what easily happens all the time… If this trait “never. not once” never saves you all, you’re doing something HORRIBLY wrong. Are you sitting at 30% letting them stack condies?

ok so i tried to make the build from what everyone says an engi always have on them with AR

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQFAUlspqb3zSgF87IRoHF2+qV0jHTZH/pgcB

I couldnt possibly fit everything in there like protection injection, speedy kit, backpack regenerator (since you know, elixir gun and bomb), i couldnt get either all those elixirs to clean away with cleaning formula 409 since i had to make place for the OP elixir gun and the bomb kit. So we got no supply drop since we need elixir X for the perma balance too.

I think alot of people dont know alot about engi and they are just mad. There is only a certain quantity of traits and utility we can take and the way some of you described us, there would be a ton of different AR build.

So lets try to get this straight. At the start people were complaining of AR and perma conditions cleansing via elixirs, then we moved to hold a perma weakness while comboing in the field of the EG gun (the weakness last one second so you better not combo if you want it to be perma.., and the damage is terrible) then we moved to the fact that AR user play with bomb kit to heal and hold point.

I dont really know what we are debating anymore, only AR? Engi bunker with AR trying to make a stand on a point? Ar + Cleansing formula? Ar + protection talent?

Perhaps we should start making argument while linking a specific build because the way some people talk about it, i got way more traits and utility slots.

ronpierce.2760:

Eviator.9746:

The last several posts have just been theorycrafting. Video or it didn’t happen.

I’ve been pvping for quite a while, I don’t need a video to show you what easily happens all the time… If this trait “never. not once” never saves you all, you’re doing something HORRIBLY wrong. Are you sitting at 30% letting them stack condies?

What they’re doing wrong is not building around ar to make it work effectively. You cannot just bring low hp along with the trait and expect to win your battles without a sweat. You need that high hp or its mediocre at best. There is a reason why engies rarely used this trait until now.

Anet did say they wanted builds to be made around the grandmaster trait, and that is what exactly what is going on here. Those engies that you have a hard time killing with your condition builds? Its a very specialized build who went out of their way just to counter this meta.

ronpierce.2760:

Eviator.9746:

The last several posts have just been theorycrafting. Video or it didn’t happen.

I’ve been pvping for quite a while, I don’t need a video to show you what easily happens all the time… If this trait “never. not once” never saves you all, you’re doing something HORRIBLY wrong. Are you sitting at 30% letting them stack condies?

then just make a video and prove your point with it. Show us a mighty engineer holding a point and that you cant get rid of him because of AR.

Ill discuss the video with you and dont dismiss it. I can say “i was wrong” but right now i still believe i am right.

darkchicken.8692:

ok so i tried to make the build from what everyone says an engi always have on them with AR

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQFAUlspqb3zSgF87IRoHF2+qV0jHTZH/pgcB

I couldnt possibly fit everything in there like protection injection, speedy kit, backpack regenerator (since you know, elixir gun and bomb), i couldnt get either all those elixirs to clean away with cleaning formula 409 since i had to make place for the OP elixir gun and the bomb kit. So we got no supply drop since we need elixir X for the perma balance too.

I think alot of people dont know alot about engi and they are just mad. There is only a certain quantity of traits and utility we can take and the way some of you described us, there would be a ton of different AR build.

So lets try to get this straight. At the start people were complaining of AR and perma conditions cleansing via elixirs, then we moved to hold a perma weakness while comboing in the field of the EG gun (the weakness last one second so you better not combo if you want it to be perma.., and the damage is terrible) then we moved to the fact that AR user play with bomb kit to heal and hold point.

I dont really know what we are debating anymore, only AR? Engi bunker with AR trying to make a stand on a point? Ar + Cleansing formula? Ar + protection talent?

Perhaps we should start making argument while linking a specific build because the way some people talk about it, i got way more traits and utility slots.

They aren’t debating the engineer. They’re debating the boogeyman. The boogeyman has no set form, no set build, no weaknesses, and no practicality limits. He’s under the bed, in the closet, around every corner, and he’s right behind you.

I’m the boogeyman now. It’s pretty sweet, hanging out with the lochness monster and Elvis. BTW, Elvis has lost all the weight. He’s in pretty good shape now.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I’m the boogeyman now. It’s pretty sweet, hanging out with the lochness monster and Elvis. BTW, Elvis has lost all the weight. He’s in pretty good shape now.

Elvis

It has always been the same when people report something OP in this game.
Everyone who plays that profession often find any kind of excuse and fictional “drawback” to make the trait/skill/combo whatever looks not OP.

It happened with Thieves and the backstab combo. People used to say “but.. but thieves are squishy!”
It is happening with Necro and the huge condi burst. People are saying “but… but Necros can be focused easily!”

People should realize that those justifications don’t work at all.

ronpierce.2760:

Eviator.9746:

The last several posts have just been theorycrafting. Video or it didn’t happen.

I’ve been pvping for quite a while, I don’t need a video to show you what easily happens all the time… If this trait “never. not once” never saves you all, you’re doing something HORRIBLY wrong. Are you sitting at 30% letting them stack condies?

Like I’ve said before I don’t have an opinion one way or another whether it’s OP at high levels of play. But you would sure be able to make your point much better if you had video, instead of just one-sided, “I know because I’m awesome and everyone should believe me” logic.

Eviator.9746:

ronpierce.2760:

Eviator.9746:

The last several posts have just been theorycrafting. Video or it didn’t happen.

I’ve been pvping for quite a while, I don’t need a video to show you what easily happens all the time… If this trait “never. not once” never saves you all, you’re doing something HORRIBLY wrong. Are you sitting at 30% letting them stack condies?

Like I’ve said before I don’t have an opinion one way or another whether it’s OP at high levels of play. But you would sure be able to make your point much better if you had video, instead of just one-sided logic.

It doesn’t take rocket science or a how to to understand how crippling an enemy that has to be in melee range to attack and being immune to CCs while having perma vigor and swiftness makes for a one sided fight. I mean… hell, just do the math…

sorrow.2364:

It has always been the same when people report something OP in this game.
Everyone who plays that profession often find any kind of excuse and fictional “drawback” to make the trait/skill/combo whatever looks not OP.

It happened with Thieves and the backstab combo. People used to say “but.. but thieves are squishy!”
It is happening with Necro and the huge condi burst. People are saying “but… but Necros can be focused easily!”

People should realize that those justifications don’t work at all.

People tend to overexagerate a bit and people tend to yell “wolf” sooner then it should. What usually make the developers change something is not the actual report on how “OP” something is but the number of people reporting it.

Because just look at this post, some people dont know a thing about engi and you can easily sniff that and some others do know about it but still glorify the talent. AR is made to counter a very specific kind of build and not every engi runs it because outside of this small window, it suck. It is used in tourney now because everyone got a full condi necro since its the FoTM but do you see more engi using AR in pve? in WvW? Do every tournament match where there is an engineer result in him having AR?

Some people fight because they are scared of losing their edge, of losing what make the class fun for them. Some people dont want a challenge in pvp, they just want to brutally win over someone without a fight and feel strong (twinks in other mmo are a good proof of that). So losing a one shot combo can be terrifying for them. But now we are talking about a defensive skill oriented toward conditions only at 25% health and lower, its not the same thing.

Someone was saying earlier in this thread about “A well played dps should be able to outplay a bunker” which i agree, but what about a well played bunker? How do you know you had the upper hand on that engi? because you dropped him to 25% He made a tailored spec to get there and survive, thats its strenght, thats its grandmaster trait, 30 point into a line just for THAT.

So how do you know you outplayed that engi and you deserve the victory? You know when you outplayed someone when they run for their life or they are dead. If he is still hopping everywhere around, dodge rolling and trying to survive, you dont have the upper hand yet.

So necros, learn to deal with your counter.

sorrow.2364:

It has always been the same when people report something OP in this game.
Everyone who plays that profession often find any kind of excuse and fictional “drawback” to make the trait/skill/combo whatever looks not OP.

It happened with Thieves and the backstab combo. People used to say “but.. but thieves are squishy!”
It is happening with Necro and the huge condi burst. People are saying “but… but Necros can be focused easily!”

People should realize that those justifications don’t work at all.

Says the one whining cause he can’t faceroll all the enemies alone in a heavily specialized build and wants a build-defining trait countering that specialized build nerfed.

sorrow.2364:

It has always been the same when people report something OP in this game.
Everyone who plays that profession often find any kind of excuse and fictional “drawback” to make the trait/skill/combo whatever looks not OP.

It happened with Thieves and the backstab combo. People used to say “but.. but thieves are squishy!”
It is happening with Necro and the huge condi burst. People are saying “but… but Necros can be focused easily!”

People should realize that those justifications don’t work at all.

Except in this case a trait which hasn’t been touched or buffed since beta (actually suffered somehwat of a nerf recently) is being called OP. Mainly by people that are playing an extremely OP class or people that are running condition spam builds. This trait was never talked about before condition spam became the meta. Now we see

1. Condi necros (obv)
2. Condi Enginneers/HGH (Obv)
3. Condi thieves (odd but i’ll take it)
4. Condi mesmers (interesting when pulled off right but not the easiest condition class to play)
5. Rangers that When they are in teams run traps/conditions (or spirits but that is a bunker build.
6. Condi warriors (wut?)

Eles and guards don’t have viable condition builds mainly due to lack of being able to reliably dish out AOE condi damage. So when over half of the classes are running a condition spam build it is by no means OP for one build to be a counter to that. When people started griping about how out of hands conditions are the response was “Learn to counter the meta! Build around it!” Now that we have it is being called OP, coincidence? Just because one 25% health trait makes it harder for condition spammers to roll their face across the keyboard and dish out every condition possible to win does not make it OP.

It is a GM trait with a strict requirement and a low margin of error for survival when it kicks in.

ronpierce.2760:

Eviator.9746:

ronpierce.2760:

Eviator.9746:

The last several posts have just been theorycrafting. Video or it didn’t happen.

I’ve been pvping for quite a while, I don’t need a video to show you what easily happens all the time… If this trait “never. not once” never saves you all, you’re doing something HORRIBLY wrong. Are you sitting at 30% letting them stack condies?

Like I’ve said before I don’t have an opinion one way or another whether it’s OP at high levels of play. But you would sure be able to make your point much better if you had video, instead of just one-sided logic.

It doesn’t take rocket science or a how to to understand how crippling an enemy that has to be in melee range to attack and being immune to CCs while having perma vigor and swiftness makes for a one sided fight. I mean… hell, just do the math…

Again, perma vigor and swiftness can be common to an engineer and not necessarily AR build, hell i got it in my pve kit build. Immune to CC or heavy cleanse build can both do the same result. Its not AR by itself that make this combo strong, a full elixir build with cleansing formula would do the same result. Just as a shout guardian with speed mark on the ground can outrun you too, just like a rogue can stealth and use shortbow to get away.

Its your own fault for not carrying a range weapon or to make a spec that the only way you have to catch to someone is conditions. Its not because you dropped his HP that you will get the kill, pvp is not always about a clear win over someone. If he outrun you its part of the game, just like when i played my guardian, alot of people outran me even if i was stronger and had the upper hand.

jportell.2197:

So when over half of the classes are running a condition spam build it is by no means OP for one build to be a counter to that. When people started griping about how out of hands conditions are the response was “Learn to counter the meta! Build around it!” Now that we have it is being called OP, coincidence? Just because one 25% health trait makes it harder for condition spammers to roll their face across the keyboard and dish out every condition possible to win does not make it OP.

It is a GM trait with a strict requirement and a low margin of error for survival when it kicks in.

love that, sums it up pretty well.

ronpierce.2760:

Eviator.9746:

ronpierce.2760:

Eviator.9746:

The last several posts have just been theorycrafting. Video or it didn’t happen.

I’ve been pvping for quite a while, I don’t need a video to show you what easily happens all the time… If this trait “never. not once” never saves you all, you’re doing something HORRIBLY wrong. Are you sitting at 30% letting them stack condies?

Like I’ve said before I don’t have an opinion one way or another whether it’s OP at high levels of play. But you would sure be able to make your point much better if you had video, instead of just one-sided logic.

It doesn’t take rocket science or a how to to understand how crippling an enemy that has to be in melee range to attack and being immune to CCs while having perma vigor and swiftness makes for a one sided fight. I mean… hell, just do the math…

It’s so obviously OP. That’s why it’s been in the game for nearly a year now, more if you count BWE.

jportell.2197:

When people started griping about how out of hands conditions are the response was “Learn to counter the meta! Build around it!” Now that we have it is being called OP, coincidence? Just because one 25% health trait makes it harder for condition spammers to roll their face across the keyboard and dish out every condition possible to win does not make it OP.

It is a GM trait with a strict requirement and a low margin of error for survival when it kicks in.

This. I challenge any of the players who think AR is overpowered to counter this argument. Because we all heard this for days and days after the June 25th update. We were all told to L2P and to adapt to the new Necromancer meta build. Well, guess what. Some of us did, and now it’s your turn. Facerolling flavor of the month specs generally get only a few weeks in the limelight, but here’s the thing—AR a 30 point trait on one profession out of eight, and that profession is now one of the least played in competitive pvp. So lucky you—your Tier 1 status isn’t under siege. You just have to accept the occasional bad match up like the rest of us.

Also, I refuse to believe this is a serious problem until one of you produces a video showing you losing to a sampling of AR specced Engineers.

At least in the case of the thief QQ there are hours upon hours of footage (just search youtube and watch twitch) showing thief players harassing groups of 10+ players and picking them apart without dying (WvW) and of Evasion specced Thief players in tPvP that are impossible to hit for long periods of time.

Eviators video of an Engineer with AR dying to conditions is pretty kitten ing and I’m frankly disgusted that the OP and others are willfully ignoring that it can be played around.

so basically what these 4 pages boils down to is this "there is “1” class with “1 bunker” build that I cant insta win “1v1” on my conditionmancer “fotm” build plz nerf it" so many things could be said but I think this sums it up the best, NO.

darkchicken.8692:

Someone was saying earlier in this thread about “A well played dps should be able to outplay a bunker” which i agree, but what about a well played bunker? How do you know you had the upper hand on that engi? because you dropped him to 25% He made a tailored spec to get there and survive, thats its strenght, thats its grandmaster trait, 30 point into a line just for THAT.

So how do you know you outplayed that engi and you deserve the victory? You know when you outplayed someone when they run for their life or they are dead. If he is still hopping everywhere around, dodge rolling and trying to survive, you dont have the upper hand yet.

So necros, learn to deal with your counter.

But how can you say that you outplay your enemy when you have a trait that grants you automatically 100% immunity to the enemy’s main source of damage?
That isn’t outplaying someone, you’re not taking any skill to get at less than 25% HP and being untouchable.

It isn’t even a counter. A counter is a tool given to someone to be more effective against a specific build. You still need skills and a brain to effectively use your counter.

For instance, Well of Power is a good counter to AoE conditions. It needs to be placed at the right time to lowers the effectiveness of conditions.

Those kind of traits don’t belong to a game which wants to be called e-sport, at all.

jportell.2197:

sorrow.2364:

It has always been the same when people report something OP in this game.
Everyone who plays that profession often find any kind of excuse and fictional “drawback” to make the trait/skill/combo whatever looks not OP.

It happened with Thieves and the backstab combo. People used to say “but.. but thieves are squishy!”
It is happening with Necro and the huge condi burst. People are saying “but… but Necros can be focused easily!”

People should realize that those justifications don’t work at all.

Except in this case a trait which hasn’t been touched or buffed since beta (actually suffered somehwat of a nerf recently) is being called OP. Mainly by people that are playing an extremely OP class or people that are running condition spam builds. This trait was never talked about before condition spam became the meta. Now we see

1. Condi necros (obv)
2. Condi Enginneers/HGH (Obv)
3. Condi thieves (odd but i’ll take it)
4. Condi mesmers (interesting when pulled off right but not the easiest condition class to play)
5. Rangers that When they are in teams run traps/conditions (or spirits but that is a bunker build.
6. Condi warriors (wut?)

Eles and guards don’t have viable condition builds mainly due to lack of being able to reliably dish out AOE condi damage. So when over half of the classes are running a condition spam build it is by no means OP for one build to be a counter to that. When people started griping about how out of hands conditions are the response was “Learn to counter the meta! Build around it!” Now that we have it is being called OP, coincidence? Just because one 25% health trait makes it harder for condition spammers to roll their face across the keyboard and dish out every condition possible to win does not make it OP.

It is a GM trait with a strict requirement and a low margin of error for survival when it kicks in.

Same as above.

Manuhell.2759:

Says the one whining cause he can’t faceroll all the enemies alone in a heavily specialized build and wants a build-defining trait countering that specialized build nerfed.

What is this no-sense?

Direct Damage Countered By-Bunker Guards Face Tanking
Bunker Eles- Main source of mitigation is through healing and tons of boon uptime (i mean tons)
Rangers-Bunker through having insane toughness (signet of stone!) passive condition transfer through a few methods (not OP at all right they don’t even need to be 25% health!) and built in weapon evades.
Necros Bunker-MM fetid consumption (1 minion erry 10s) Good luck killing these guys through nothing but conditions!
Mesmers can’t effectively bunker they lack condition removal and get no meaningful boons unless in stealth which decaps the point.
Engis- Random protection (regen is the most guaranteed) GREAT and i mean amazing healing. But it requires heavy timing and coordination with your team. And then just when you think you got us. We have thought ahead and planned for the match and boom your conditions can’t kill us.

People need to understand that you have not outplayed anyone especially an engi until you have either stomped them or pushed them off point and they ran.

It ain’t over til the stake’s through the body kids.

sorrow.2364:

But how can you say that you outplay your enemy when you have a trait that grants you automatically 100% immunity to the enemy’s main source of damage?
That isn’t outplaying someone, you’re not taking any skill to get at less than 25% HP and being untouchable.

It isn’t even a counter. A counter is a tool given to someone to be more effective against a specific build. You still need skills and a brain to effectively use your counter.

For instance, Well of Power is a good counter to AoE conditions. It needs to be placed at the right time to lowers the effectiveness of conditions.

Those kind of traits don’t belong to a game which wants to be called e-sport, at all.

It is our counter to you. How does a counter’s counter work? We dont have enough cleanses (and still have enough offensive to deal with you) and this is like “the last line of defense”. How do you propose we deal with a full condition spamming necromancer? how does the engineer usually kill you? how do they counter you with AR?

You talk about AR as if we were becoming invulnerable at 25% and less. I know it has been said many time and i dont want to run in a circle with arguments but each of your attacks do have a damage part not related to conditions, even if its low. Its your fault for going all out in one area and expecting to kill everything with it. Its like in dungeon and dragon, you make a mage based about ice and ice only, taking all the feats that make you better at it and then you encounter an ice immune creature. Does the game master tune it down so you can kill it or you adapt and live with your weakness.

Its not like every classes had this particular trait or that every engineer are running AR. How many time do you face an AR engineer? Do they always beat you? How do you deal with engineers usually? do engineers kill you sometime? how?

im not doing sarcasm or trolling, im really asking.

sorrow.2364:

Manuhell.2759:

Says the one whining cause he can’t faceroll all the enemies alone in a heavily specialized build and wants a build-defining trait countering that specialized build nerfed.

What is this no-sense?

The only nonsense here is this thread. People using full condition build whining about the only (grandmaster) trait in the game that directly (and only) counters full condition builds (while requiring heavy specialization itself) and wanting it nerfed. Instead of, you know, simply avoid being so specialized or remember that pvp is played in teams and calling an ally.

jportell.2197:

Direct Damage Countered By-Bunker Guards Face Tanking
Bunker Eles- Main source of mitigation is through healing and tons of boon uptime (i mean tons)
Rangers-Bunker through having insane toughness (signet of stone!) passive condition transfer through a few methods (not OP at all right they don’t even need to be 25% health!) and built in weapon evades.
Necros Bunker-MM fetid consumption (1 minion erry 10s) Good luck killing these guys through nothing but conditions!
Mesmers can’t effectively bunker they lack condition removal and get no meaningful boons unless in stealth which decaps the point.
Engis- Random protection (regen is the most guaranteed) GREAT and i mean amazing healing. But it requires heavy timing and coordination with your team. And then just when you think you got us. We have thought ahead and planned for the match and boom your conditions can’t kill us.

People need to understand that you have not outplayed anyone especially an engi until you have either stomped them or pushed them off point and they ran.

It ain’t over til the stake’s through the body kids.

Rangers can die as long as you continue to reapply conditions. People who do quick condition stacks wont kill them.
Elementalists are like rangers but easier to hit.
Necromancers can be defeated by aoe conditions which kill their minions stopping their sustain.
Mesmers stealth so Aoe conditions will stop them in their tracks.
Thieves have low hp Aoe conditions is one way to deal with their stealth but you can also stack conditions quickly to kill them before they stealth again.
Engineers without AR. They will draw out the match so out pressure them and maintain a constant stack of bleed and poison or more.

The same goes for engis. If we get condi bursted right above 25% health or just constant conditions until 25% we are dead anyways. This trait exists to give a little bit of wiggle room until back up comes and either heals us up or starts steamrolling the condi spammer trying to kill us to give us some breathing room. The engi that takes this trait usually isn’t focused on killing you they are focused on tanking and out healing your damage for as long as possible until their teammates show up…. Which is the point of any other bunker.

Manuhell.2759:

sorrow.2364:

Manuhell.2759:

Says the one whining cause he can’t faceroll all the enemies alone in a heavily specialized build and wants a build-defining trait countering that specialized build nerfed.

What is this no-sense?

The only nonsense here is this thread. People using full condition build whining about the only (grandmaster) trait in the game that directly (and only) counters full condition builds (while requiring heavy specialization itself) and wanting it nerfed. Instead of, you know, simply avoid being so specialized or remember that pvp is played in teams and calling an ally.

Well actually, rather than a nerf it would be nice if other classes had their own source of immunity to conditions or something to put the other classes without this great counter on equal footing with this defensive trait that is exclusive to the engineer.

Zelulose.8695:

Well actually, rather than a nerf it would be nice if other classes had their own source of immunity to conditions or something to put the other classes without this great counter on equal footing with this defensive trait that is exclusive to the engineer.

It would depend on the class. On engineers it is balanced because the drawbacks are heavy, so you’ve got to build specifically for it.
Give it to a class with evades, constant on-demand protection or higher hp pools and it may be unbalanced.

Zelulose.8695:

Manuhell.2759:

sorrow.2364:

Manuhell.2759:

Says the one whining cause he can’t faceroll all the enemies alone in a heavily specialized build and wants a build-defining trait countering that specialized build nerfed.

What is this no-sense?

The only nonsense here is this thread. People using full condition build whining about the only (grandmaster) trait in the game that directly (and only) counters full condition builds (while requiring heavy specialization itself) and wanting it nerfed. Instead of, you know, simply avoid being so specialized or remember that pvp is played in teams and calling an ally.

Well actually, rather than a nerf it would be nice if other classes had their own source of immunity to conditions or something to put the other classes without this great counter on equal footing with this defensive trait that is exclusive to the engineer.

Engis only have cleaning formula 409 in their traits. straight “removal” of condis and transmute less than one out of every 10 conditions. That is not something that the condi spammer or the engi is going to even notice.
And I bet engis would love it if their turrets took a condition from them every 10s or using a toolbelt skill removed a conditions. Or we got a condi removed just every 10s just because. I also bet they think it would be pretty awesome if healing turret overcharge got rid of all conditions immediately….

Or if they had two weapon skills a healing skill and two slot skills that could transfer conditions like one specific class that comes to mind.

The thing your arguing is that no other classes have a counter to conditions where in fact they do. Only mesmers don’t have this passive condi removal on the low end (shattered conditions is not very reliable still). And if engis were told that they got a trait or skills that were more reliable at removing conditions they would jump for joy.

What you are not getting is a bunker engi (shaman/cleric) has 18k health. And at 25% that is really not that much for someone to direct damage through.
The trait is a last ditch effort for engis to live long enough for teammates to get there and that actually happens maybe 6-10 encounters where they make it in time especially if the rest of their team is spawning.

Step 1: trait at 20/0/0/30/20
Step 2: select Acidic Elixirs, Enhance Performance, Invigorating Speed, Cleansing Formula 409, Automated Response, Speedy Kits, Kit Refinement.
Step 3: slot a Rabid amulet and equip Runes of The Forge, and Two Sigils of Nullification one for your Pistol and the other for your shield.
Step 4: slot skills Med Kit, Elixir C, Elixir B, Elixir S, Elixir X.
Step 5: WIN until we get nerfed!

Why would I take all those elixirs and not take HGH? Asinine imo. Plus you have no weapon skills aside from pistol and shield….

jportell.2197:

Zelulose.8695:

Manuhell.2759:

sorrow.2364:

Manuhell.2759:

Says the one whining cause he can’t faceroll all the enemies alone in a heavily specialized build and wants a build-defining trait countering that specialized build nerfed.

What is this no-sense?

The only nonsense here is this thread. People using full condition build whining about the only (grandmaster) trait in the game that directly (and only) counters full condition builds (while requiring heavy specialization itself) and wanting it nerfed. Instead of, you know, simply avoid being so specialized or remember that pvp is played in teams and calling an ally.

Well actually, rather than a nerf it would be nice if other classes had their own source of immunity to conditions or something to put the other classes without this great counter on equal footing with this defensive trait that is exclusive to the engineer.

Engis only have cleaning formula 409 in their traits. straight “removal” of condis and transmute less than one out of every 10 conditions. That is not something that the condi spammer or the engi is going to even notice.
And I bet engis would love it if their turrets took a condition from them every 10s or using a toolbelt skill removed a conditions. Or we got a condi removed just every 10s just because. I also bet they think it would be pretty awesome if healing turret overcharge got rid of all conditions immediately….

Or if they had two weapon skills a healing skill and two slot skills that could transfer conditions like one specific class that comes to mind.

The thing your arguing is that no other classes have a counter to conditions where in fact they do. Only mesmers don’t have this passive condi removal on the low end (shattered conditions is not very reliable still). And if engis were told that they got a trait or skills that were more reliable at removing conditions they would jump for joy.

What you are not getting is a bunker engi (shaman/cleric) has 18k health. And at 25% that is really not that much for someone to direct damage through.
The trait is a last ditch effort for engis to live long enough for teammates to get there and that actually happens maybe 6-10 encounters where they make it in time especially if the rest of their team is spawning.

So then you are against bringing other classes to equal footing against the condition builds? AR is a very strong trait. Other classes should have access to defensive traits this nice or it should be toned down so all the classes are playing on an equal footing. It sounds easy to kill an engineer with 4.5k hp left (1/4 of 18k hp) but its not. If they have you weakened and apply protection how are you supposed to hit them for the finishing 4.5k? And the melee classes can simply be kited with swiftness. (don’t forget they have two dodges that they can save for that 4.5k hp range)

Manuhell.2759:

The only nonsense here is this thread. People using full condition build whining about the only (grandmaster) trait in the game that directly (and only) counters full condition builds (while requiring heavy specialization itself) and wanting it nerfed. Instead of, you know, simply avoid being so specialized or remember that pvp is played in teams and calling an ally.

No.
Your vision of balance is a nonsense.

If conditions are that rampant to being out of hand, you don’t give full immunity to only one profession, you just nerf conditions to put them to a reasonable spot.

Condition damage is a source of damage as much as direct damage. You can’t talk about “not being specialized” in a game like this that encourages heavy specialization build. The way some professions are designed, the way stats are distributed among jewels… there is no way to not build specialized.

darkchicken.8692:

It is our counter to you. How does a counter’s counter work? We dont have enough cleanses (and still have enough offensive to deal with you) and this is like “the last line of defense”. How do you propose we deal with a full condition spamming necromancer? how does the engineer usually kill you? how do they counter you with AR?

You talk about AR as if we were becoming invulnerable at 25% and less. I know it has been said many time and i dont want to run in a circle with arguments but each of your attacks do have a damage part not related to conditions, even if its low. Its your fault for going all out in one area and expecting to kill everything with it. Its like in dungeon and dragon, you make a mage based about ice and ice only, taking all the feats that make you better at it and then you encounter an ice immune creature. Does the game master tune it down so you can kill it or you adapt and live with your weakness.

Its not like every classes had this particular trait or that every engineer are running AR. How many time do you face an AR engineer? Do they always beat you? How do you deal with engineers usually? do engineers kill you sometime? how?

im not doing sarcasm or trolling, im really asking.

The way AR is designed is plain wrong.
Cleansing formula is a good example of a counter which works how it is supposed to work. Constant condition removals controlled by the engineer, not a stupid automated 100% immunity.

It is not my fault if I go everything in an area. Hybrid builds are complete trash in this game, don’t pretend it isn’t true. If hybrid builds were effectively worth something and if there was an amulet really worthy for hybrid damage, then your point would be right. Unfortunately, that’s not the case.

AR is a stupid trait.
A stupid badly designed counter to conditions.
Conditions should be toned down as much as AR should be completely removed from the game.

jportell.2197:

Why would I take all those elixirs and not take HGH? Asinine imo. Plus you have no weapon skills aside from pistol and shield….

Clearly all you need are 3 damage-dealing weapon skills, plus acidic elixirs.

Did you notice he took kit refinement, but has no kits? No, this guy is trolling the AR haters

Zelulose.8695:

jportell.2197:

Zelulose.8695:

Manuhell.2759:

sorrow.2364:

Manuhell.2759:

Says the one whining cause he can’t faceroll all the enemies alone in a heavily specialized build and wants a build-defining trait countering that specialized build nerfed.

What is this no-sense?

The only nonsense here is this thread. People using full condition build whining about the only (grandmaster) trait in the game that directly (and only) counters full condition builds (while requiring heavy specialization itself) and wanting it nerfed. Instead of, you know, simply avoid being so specialized or remember that pvp is played in teams and calling an ally.

Well actually, rather than a nerf it would be nice if other classes had their own source of immunity to conditions or something to put the other classes without this great counter on equal footing with this defensive trait that is exclusive to the engineer.

Engis only have cleaning formula 409 in their traits. straight “removal” of condis and transmute less than one out of every 10 conditions. That is not something that the condi spammer or the engi is going to even notice.
And I bet engis would love it if their turrets took a condition from them every 10s or using a toolbelt skill removed a conditions. Or we got a condi removed just every 10s just because. I also bet they think it would be pretty awesome if healing turret overcharge got rid of all conditions immediately….

Or if they had two weapon skills a healing skill and two slot skills that could transfer conditions like one specific class that comes to mind.

The thing your arguing is that no other classes have a counter to conditions where in fact they do. Only mesmers don’t have this passive condi removal on the low end (shattered conditions is not very reliable still). And if engis were told that they got a trait or skills that were more reliable at removing conditions they would jump for joy.

What you are not getting is a bunker engi (shaman/cleric) has 18k health. And at 25% that is really not that much for someone to direct damage through.
The trait is a last ditch effort for engis to live long enough for teammates to get there and that actually happens maybe 6-10 encounters where they make it in time especially if the rest of their team is spawning.

So then you are against bringing other classes to equal footing against the condition builds? AR is a very strong trait. Other classes should have access to defensive traits this nice or it should be toned down so all the classes are playing on an equal footing. It sounds easy to kill an engineer with 4.5k hp left (1/4 of 18k hp) but its not. If they have you weakened and apply protection how are you supposed to hit them for the finishing 4k? And the melee classes can simply be kited with swiftness. (don’t forget they have two dodges that they can save for that 4.5k hp range)

Once again you are acting like engis are running in wielding duel rifles running a 30/30/30/30/30 build with and elixir/flamethrower kit elixir R, elixir S, and Elixir B, and nades for the icing on the cake. Also engis can’t apply protection just on a whim. In fact the only way they can apply it is through elixir H (randomly and bunker engis don’t use it.) Engi’s getting Protection directly depends on how much of a beating they are taking and how hard they are getting CC’d. We can’t just swap to earth or do shield 4 like guards. If an engi is taking this trait then it means they aren’t going to be hitting as hard but will be much harder to kill. And they are prolly using those dodges before 25% HP because they don’t want to be at 25% health.

You want other classes to have this immunity trait? Fine.
I want all my turrets to take conditions from me.
I want my heal to remove all conditions from me at once.
I want a trait and a kit that passively removes conditions from me (eles, guardians, rangers.) I want my condition removal to also break stun (necros) I also want a trait that removes conditions for each toolbelt skill I use (Cleansing Ire).

Maybe when engis also get all that. They will be okay with everyone else getting a GM trait that makes them immune to conditions at 25% health…. Or you can bring a balanced team comp instead of 5 condition spammers then whining when you come across a low health engi that is getting “IMMUNE” above his head when you roll your face across the keyboard.

jportell.2197:

Maybe when engis also get all that. They will be okay with everyone else getting a GM trait that makes them immune to conditions at 25% health…. Or you can bring a balanced team comp instead of 5 condition spammers then whining when you come across a low health engi that is getting “IMMUNE” above his head when you roll your face across the keyboard.

Getting immune over your head without even needing to roll your face across the keyboard is even worse.

jportell.2197:

Zelulose.8695:

jportell.2197:

Zelulose.8695:

Manuhell.2759:

sorrow.2364:

Manuhell.2759:

Says the one whining cause he can’t faceroll all the enemies alone in a heavily specialized build and wants a build-defining trait countering that specialized build nerfed.

What is this no-sense?

The only nonsense here is this thread. People using full condition build whining about the only (grandmaster) trait in the game that directly (and only) counters full condition builds (while requiring heavy specialization itself) and wanting it nerfed. Instead of, you know, simply avoid being so specialized or remember that pvp is played in teams and calling an ally.

Well actually, rather than a nerf it would be nice if other classes had their own source of immunity to conditions or something to put the other classes without this great counter on equal footing with this defensive trait that is exclusive to the engineer.

Engis only have cleaning formula 409 in their traits. straight “removal” of condis and transmute less than one out of every 10 conditions. That is not something that the condi spammer or the engi is going to even notice.
And I bet engis would love it if their turrets took a condition from them every 10s or using a toolbelt skill removed a conditions. Or we got a condi removed just every 10s just because. I also bet they think it would be pretty awesome if healing turret overcharge got rid of all conditions immediately….

Or if they had two weapon skills a healing skill and two slot skills that could transfer conditions like one specific class that comes to mind.

The thing your arguing is that no other classes have a counter to conditions where in fact they do. Only mesmers don’t have this passive condi removal on the low end (shattered conditions is not very reliable still). And if engis were told that they got a trait or skills that were more reliable at removing conditions they would jump for joy.

What you are not getting is a bunker engi (shaman/cleric) has 18k health. And at 25% that is really not that much for someone to direct damage through.
The trait is a last ditch effort for engis to live long enough for teammates to get there and that actually happens maybe 6-10 encounters where they make it in time especially if the rest of their team is spawning.

So then you are against bringing other classes to equal footing against the condition builds? AR is a very strong trait. Other classes should have access to defensive traits this nice or it should be toned down so all the classes are playing on an equal footing. It sounds easy to kill an engineer with 4.5k hp left (1/4 of 18k hp) but its not. If they have you weakened and apply protection how are you supposed to hit them for the finishing 4k? And the melee classes can simply be kited with swiftness. (don’t forget they have two dodges that they can save for that 4.5k hp range)

Once again you are acting like engis are running in wielding duel rifles running a 30/30/30/30/30 build with and elixir/flamethrower kit elixir R, elixir S, and Elixir B, and nades for the icing on the cake. Also engis can’t apply protection just on a whim. In fact the only way they can apply it is through elixir H (randomly and bunker engis don’t use it.) Engi’s getting Protection directly depends on how much of a beating they are taking and how hard they are getting CC’d. We can’t just swap to earth or do shield 4 like guards. If an engi is taking this trait then it means they aren’t going to be hitting as hard but will be much harder to kill. And they are prolly using those dodges before 25% HP because they don’t want to be at 25% health.

You want other classes to have this immunity trait? Fine.
I want all my turrets to take conditions from me.
I want my heal to remove all conditions from me at once.
I want a trait and a kit that passively removes conditions from me (eles, guardians, rangers.) I want my condition removal to also break stun (necros) I also want a trait that removes conditions for each toolbelt skill I use (Cleansing Ire).

Maybe when engis also get all that. They will be okay with everyone else getting a GM trait that makes them immune to conditions at 25% health…. Or you can bring a balanced team comp instead of 5 condition spammers then whining when you come across a low health engi that is getting “IMMUNE” above his head when you roll your face across the keyboard.

The engineer traits I have mentioned follow 0/0/15/30/0 If you don’t believe me review my posts about traits. And when did I mention a flame thrower? lol Just to clear misunderstanding I’m not talking about a 30/30/30/30/30 combination.

sorrow.2364:

jportell.2197:

Maybe when engis also get all that. They will be okay with everyone else getting a GM trait that makes them immune to conditions at 25% health…. Or you can bring a balanced team comp instead of 5 condition spammers then whining when you come across a low health engi that is getting “IMMUNE” above his head when you roll your face across the keyboard.

Getting immune over your head without even needing to roll your face across the keyboard is even worse.

And clearing all my conditions with your heal skill is better? Hey look at that the necro just got healed up and lost all the conditions…
People are getting so hung up on the immunity they are forgetting that it is 25% health. That is not much. A thief can roll through and heartseeker hero the engi to death. Easy Peasy.

Zelulose.8695:

jportell.2197:

Zelulose.8695:

jportell.2197:

Zelulose.8695:

Manuhell.2759:

sorrow.2364:

Manuhell.2759:

Says the one whining cause he can’t faceroll all the enemies alone in a heavily specialized build and wants a build-defining trait countering that specialized build nerfed.

What is this no-sense?

The only nonsense here is this thread. People using full condition build whining about the only (grandmaster) trait in the game that directly (and only) counters full condition builds (while requiring heavy specialization itself) and wanting it nerfed. Instead of, you know, simply avoid being so specialized or remember that pvp is played in teams and calling an ally.

Well actually, rather than a nerf it would be nice if other classes had their own source of immunity to conditions or something to put the other classes without this great counter on equal footing with this defensive trait that is exclusive to the engineer.

Engis only have cleaning formula 409 in their traits. straight “removal” of condis and transmute less than one out of every 10 conditions. That is not something that the condi spammer or the engi is going to even notice.
And I bet engis would love it if their turrets took a condition from them every 10s or using a toolbelt skill removed a conditions. Or we got a condi removed just every 10s just because. I also bet they think it would be pretty awesome if healing turret overcharge got rid of all conditions immediately….

Or if they had two weapon skills a healing skill and two slot skills that could transfer conditions like one specific class that comes to mind.

The thing your arguing is that no other classes have a counter to conditions where in fact they do. Only mesmers don’t have this passive condi removal on the low end (shattered conditions is not very reliable still). And if engis were told that they got a trait or skills that were more reliable at removing conditions they would jump for joy.

What you are not getting is a bunker engi (shaman/cleric) has 18k health. And at 25% that is really not that much for someone to direct damage through.
The trait is a last ditch effort for engis to live long enough for teammates to get there and that actually happens maybe 6-10 encounters where they make it in time especially if the rest of their team is spawning.

So then you are against bringing other classes to equal footing against the condition builds? AR is a very strong trait. Other classes should have access to defensive traits this nice or it should be toned down so all the classes are playing on an equal footing. It sounds easy to kill an engineer with 4.5k hp left (1/4 of 18k hp) but its not. If they have you weakened and apply protection how are you supposed to hit them for the finishing 4k? And the melee classes can simply be kited with swiftness. (don’t forget they have two dodges that they can save for that 4.5k hp range)

Once again you are acting like engis are running in wielding duel rifles running a 30/30/30/30/30 build with and elixir/flamethrower kit elixir R, elixir S, and Elixir B, and nades for the icing on the cake. Also engis can’t apply protection just on a whim. In fact the only way they can apply it is through elixir H (randomly and bunker engis don’t use it.) Engi’s getting Protection directly depends on how much of a beating they are taking and how hard they are getting CC’d. We can’t just swap to earth or do shield 4 like guards. If an engi is taking this trait then it means they aren’t going to be hitting as hard but will be much harder to kill. And they are prolly using those dodges before 25% HP because they don’t want to be at 25% health.

You want other classes to have this immunity trait? Fine.
I want all my turrets to take conditions from me.
I want my heal to remove all conditions from me at once.
I want a trait and a kit that passively removes conditions from me (eles, guardians, rangers.) I want my condition removal to also break stun (necros) I also want a trait that removes conditions for each toolbelt skill I use (Cleansing Ire).

Maybe when engis also get all that. They will be okay with everyone else getting a GM trait that makes them immune to conditions at 25% health…. Or you can bring a balanced team comp instead of 5 condition spammers then whining when you come across a low health engi that is getting “IMMUNE” above his head when you roll your face across the keyboard.

The engineer traits I have mentioned follow 0/0/15/30/0 If you don’t believe me review my posts about traits

I don’t know very many engis that run those traits maybe you could introduce us… I do know more that run HGH or a flamethrower build….

jportell.2197:

And clearing all my conditions with your heal skill is better? Hey look at that the necro just got healed up and lost all the conditions…
People are getting so hung up on the immunity they are forgetting that it is 25% health. That is not much. A thief can roll through and heartseeker hero the engi to death. Easy Peasy.

Moving the topic to other subject won’t prove your point.

Consume Conditions doesn’t grants you 100% immunity to conditions. Neither heartseeker.

@jportell.2197 I know engineers that run all sorts of builds from grenades to different bunker methods to condition spammers to turret builds. HGH and Flamethrower can be good builds but engineers can do alot more than that and if you play them you will learn that they have variety. It’s because of this variety that AR is too strong a trait.

Zelulose.8695:

@jportell.2197 I know engineers that run all sorts of builds from grenades to different bunker methods to condition spammers to turret builds. HGH and Flamethrower can be good builds but engineers can do alot more than that and if you play them you will learn that they have variety. It’s because of this variety that AR is too strong a trait.

They still build around that one trait because it is their ONLY reliable defense to conditions unlike other classes aside from mesmer that have multiple defenses against conditions *cough*Necros*cough*.

Also as for suggesting that I look at your posts on builds and traits I am very reluctant to do so simply because of one post you made about asking for a nerf to mesmers. Then used a video in which you got steamrolled by a well known mesmer player while you were clicking your skills in a build that you said was a “super awesome insane damage yet tanky build”. It was a video that showed nothing but poor play and nothing to do with things requiring a nerf. So when you come to ask for a nerf to this trait I am very reluctant to think that it is actually OP based off of past experience from your posts.

ronpierce.2760:

A bunker engi can run 0/0/0/30/10 and have perma Swiftness, Vigor, immune to conditions under 25%. Just… thought I’d throw that out there. That’s not hard to achieve, and yes it’s pretty mindless… And people STILL refuse to recognize this effects melee classes that rely on conditions to close gaps far greater than the kitten condi spams everyone is so set on. Get over the condi spam its going to get nerfed…

I play a full melee Warrior in tournies and have absolutely no trouble with Engineers. They don’t have any stability, stun/daze them.

jportell.2197:

Zelulose.8695:

@jportell.2197 I know engineers that run all sorts of builds from grenades to different bunker methods to condition spammers to turret builds. HGH and Flamethrower can be good builds but engineers can do alot more than that and if you play them you will learn that they have variety. It’s because of this variety that AR is too strong a trait.

They still build around that one trait because it is their ONLY reliable defense to conditions unlike other classes aside from mesmer that have multiple defenses against conditions *cough*Necros*cough*.

Also as for suggesting that I look at your posts on builds and traits I am very reluctant to do so simply because of one post you made about asking for a nerf to mesmers. Then used a video in which you got steamrolled by a well known mesmer player while you were clicking your skills in a build that you said was a “super awesome insane damage yet tanky build”. It was a video that showed nothing but poor play and nothing to do with things requiring a nerf. So when you come to ask for a nerf to this trait I am very reluctant to think that it is actually OP based off of past experience from your posts.

I know you follow me whenever I create a discussion on a strong trait, but the fact is, I point them out on all classes. I’m not very biased. I don’t know why you follow me on the forums just to try and fight my opinions.

Zelulose.8695:

The engineer traits I have mentioned follow 0/0/15/30/0 If you don’t believe me review my posts about traits. And when did I mention a flame thrower? lol Just to clear misunderstanding I’m not talking about a 30/30/30/30/30 combination.

Blah blah. How about you people stop throwing out random crap and hop on a builder and make the OP build you’re talking about for us and post up the link. Include the kits.utilities as well.

Zelulose.8695:

jportell.2197:

Zelulose.8695:

@jportell.2197 I know engineers that run all sorts of builds from grenades to different bunker methods to condition spammers to turret builds. HGH and Flamethrower can be good builds but engineers can do alot more than that and if you play them you will learn that they have variety. It’s because of this variety that AR is too strong a trait.

They still build around that one trait because it is their ONLY reliable defense to conditions unlike other classes aside from mesmer that have multiple defenses against conditions *cough*Necros*cough*.

Also as for suggesting that I look at your posts on builds and traits I am very reluctant to do so simply because of one post you made about asking for a nerf to mesmers. Then used a video in which you got steamrolled by a well known mesmer player while you were clicking your skills in a build that you said was a “super awesome insane damage yet tanky build”. It was a video that showed nothing but poor play and nothing to do with things requiring a nerf. So when you come to ask for a nerf to this trait I am very reluctant to think that it is actually OP based off of past experience from your posts.

I know you follow me whenever I create a discussion on a strong trait, but the fact is, I point them out on all classes. I’m not very biased. I don’t know why you follow me on the forums just to try and fight my opinions.

Has less to do with you specifically and more about your opinions…. They are very biased. Especially since this is the only hard counter to the condi spam happy meta that is romping around. When the conditions get toned down. I guarantee you will see less engis using this and going for other equally if not more awesome GM traits.

Velron.3729:

Blah blah. How about you people stop throwing out random crap and hop on a builder and make the OP build you’re talking about for us and post up the link. Include the kits.utilities as well.

And the video. That’s what this thread is really lacking.

Eviator.9746:

Velron.3729:

Blah blah. How about you people stop throwing out random crap and hop on a builder and make the OP build you’re talking about for us and post up the link. Include the kits.utilities as well.

And the video. That’s what this thread is really lacking.

^ Please show us how you lost a fight to an engi specifically because of this trait.

jportell.2197:

^ Please show us how you lost a fight to an engi specifically because of this trait.

I’d prefer a video from the engineer’s perspective. That’d be more impactful, I think.

Eviator.9746:

jportell.2197:

^ Please show us how you lost a fight to an engi specifically because of this trait.

I’d prefer a video from the engineer’s perspective. That’d be more impactful, I think.

Well at this point I will take any video because right now it seems to be necros whining or a warrior saying they can’t CC the engi to burst them down once again the only CC that AR makes engis immune to is Immob/cripple/… They can still be dazed stunned launched knocked down knocked back etc etc. And warriors do that well.