Guild Wars 2

It already is a maddening difference between game modes.

WvW elites have to relearn many things if they want to be good at PvP. The maps require specific strategies, rotation is totally different, fighting on points forces people to eat damage they normally wouldn’t trying to defend it, there are many more situations that are 1v1 and 2v2, which requires different skills and awareness, and the downed state game is even more important on an individual level.

Also attribute totals are a zero sum game in PvP. Food is nowhere to be found and you have to make builds accordingly.

jmatb.6307:

It already is a maddening difference between game modes.

WvW elites have to relearn many things if they want to be good at PvP. The maps require specific strategies, rotation is totally different, fighting on points forces people to eat damage they normally wouldn’t trying to defend it, there are many more situations that are 1v1 and 2v2, which requires different skills and awareness, and the downed state game is even more important on an individual level.

Also attribute totals are a zero sum game in PvP. Food is nowhere to be found and you have to make builds accordingly.

This isn’t really true, builds are a little different and so is class viability but there is still plenty of small scale fights and havoc squads doing their thing. Contesting a point in WvW is much like fighting over a point in Spvp. Sure people need to learn the maps but there is plenty of coordination within one BL or coordinating attacks across multiple borderlands at the same time which happens often.

@Others complaining about the other game modes, necro is and has been bad in pve. Further nerfs because of spvp will also make the class fairly useless in WvW, right now the only function a necro serves is plague and well to strip boons neither of which is 100% crucial to most WvW fights. (ex. null field and veil are 100x more important)

It was even stated in one of the other thread try to keep the other game modes in mind.

What about having a 1-2 second Aegis triggered upon using DS? It’ll play just like the old DS “block” did, but it will use actual game mechanics instead of MacGyver’d tactics. It absorbs the hit and still allows you to use your profession mechanic for more than just a block. It also functions the same for avoiding PvE bursts like Backstab, if timed properly.

I know you can reduce the cooldown of DS to I think 5-6 seconds, so I’d be curious if it would need to be a trait, or put on a 10-15 second cooldown or something.

I feel like that would solve the “absorb one big hit” problem in PvE, it wouldn’t allow for terrain exploiting in certain maps like the DS “bug” did, and it would add some survivability for PvP, potentially allowing a Necro to mitigate a stun-chain or otherwise better deal with CC with good timing instead of giving Stability (if they aren’t meant to have it for some design decision reason).

Just a thought that I haven’t heard any feedback on from anyone yet.

Cogbyrn.7283:

What about having a 1-2 second Aegis triggered upon using DS? It’ll play just like the old DS “block” did, but it will use actual game mechanics instead of MacGyver’d tactics. It absorbs the hit and still allows you to use your profession mechanic for more than just a block. It also functions the same for avoiding PvE bursts like Backstab, if timed properly.

I know you can reduce the cooldown of DS to I think 5-6 seconds, so I’d be curious if it would need to be a trait, or put on a 10-15 second cooldown or something.

I feel like that would solve the “absorb one big hit” problem in PvE, it wouldn’t allow for terrain exploiting in certain maps like the DS “bug” did, and it would add some survivability for PvP, potentially allowing a Necro to mitigate a stun-chain or otherwise better deal with CC with good timing instead of giving Stability (if they aren’t meant to have it for some design decision reason).

Just a thought that I haven’t heard any feedback on from anyone yet.

I’ve thought it would be cool if Necros had like spectral evasion upon entering deathly shroud, like a 1 second evade. But the aegis works too, for the most part.

But the devs have explained that they want Necros to mitigate damage and be very immobile, not have things like block, evade, invulnerability, reflect, or even vigor.

Roe.3679:

Cogbyrn.7283:

What about having a 1-2 second Aegis triggered upon using DS? It’ll play just like the old DS “block” did, but it will use actual game mechanics instead of MacGyver’d tactics. It absorbs the hit and still allows you to use your profession mechanic for more than just a block. It also functions the same for avoiding PvE bursts like Backstab, if timed properly.

I know you can reduce the cooldown of DS to I think 5-6 seconds, so I’d be curious if it would need to be a trait, or put on a 10-15 second cooldown or something.

I feel like that would solve the “absorb one big hit” problem in PvE, it wouldn’t allow for terrain exploiting in certain maps like the DS “bug” did, and it would add some survivability for PvP, potentially allowing a Necro to mitigate a stun-chain or otherwise better deal with CC with good timing instead of giving Stability (if they aren’t meant to have it for some design decision reason).

Just a thought that I haven’t heard any feedback on from anyone yet.

I’ve thought it would be cool if Necros had like spectral evasion upon entering deathly shroud, like a 1 second evade. But the aegis works too, for the most part.

But the devs have explained that they want Necros to mitigate damage and be very immobile, not have things like block, evade, invulnerability, reflect, or even vigor.

Right, which is fine up until they design boss mechanics that work for every class except one. Maybe they want it to be a case of “Necros have to save their natural evades for the huge spikes”, but that’s surprisingly unfriendly.

Actually, what else might be neat is if they turned the first blockable hit within a second or two after going into Death Shroud into Life Force. That way, you could actually plan low life force around trying to mitigate a single spike of damage to boost your survivability. For example, if a Thief goes stealth and you anticipate the backstab, you could try to soak it into LF.

That could very well be unbalanced, but I thought it would be a neat little idea. I enjoy things that reward timing/good play.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Roe.3679:

Cogbyrn.7283:

What about having a 1-2 second Aegis triggered upon using DS? It’ll play just like the old DS “block” did, but it will use actual game mechanics instead of MacGyver’d tactics. It absorbs the hit and still allows you to use your profession mechanic for more than just a block. It also functions the same for avoiding PvE bursts like Backstab, if timed properly.

I know you can reduce the cooldown of DS to I think 5-6 seconds, so I’d be curious if it would need to be a trait, or put on a 10-15 second cooldown or something.

I feel like that would solve the “absorb one big hit” problem in PvE, it wouldn’t allow for terrain exploiting in certain maps like the DS “bug” did, and it would add some survivability for PvP, potentially allowing a Necro to mitigate a stun-chain or otherwise better deal with CC with good timing instead of giving Stability (if they aren’t meant to have it for some design decision reason).

Just a thought that I haven’t heard any feedback on from anyone yet.

I’ve thought it would be cool if Necros had like spectral evasion upon entering deathly shroud, like a 1 second evade. But the aegis works too, for the most part.

But the devs have explained that they want Necros to mitigate damage and be very immobile, not have things like block, evade, invulnerability, reflect, or even vigor.

Right, which is fine up until they design boss mechanics that work for every class except one. Maybe they want it to be a case of “Necros have to save their natural evades for the huge spikes”, but that’s surprisingly unfriendly.

Actually, what else might be neat is if they turned the first blockable hit within a second or two after going into Death Shroud into Life Force. That way, you could actually plan low life force around trying to mitigate a single spike of damage to boost your survivability. For example, if a Thief goes stealth and you anticipate the backstab, you could try to soak it into LF.

That could very well be unbalanced, but I thought it would be a neat little idea. I enjoy things that reward timing/good play.

I agree with rewarding skilled play, for sure. Another reason I dislike dhuumfire.

But I like that second idea, too. I feel like there are certainly options to give Necros more survivability.

Maybe just maybe its gone to the point where scrapping the entire class and rebuilding a new one ( without a 2nd hp bar ) would be the better choice.

Ohh well wishfull thinking :<.

While at it can we get the necro bug compilation moved to the pvp forum?

wiazabi.2549:

Maybe just maybe its gone to the point where scrapping the entire class and rebuilding a new one ( without a 2nd hp bar ) would be the better choice.

Ohh well wishfull thinking :<.

While at it can we get the necro bug compilation moved to the pvp forum?

Same could be said for Rangers and Warriors at this point. Rangers have been ignored forever and Warriors get an update every patch and still are ineffective.

While the warrior and ranger may be tactically unviable, no class is as bug-ridden as the necromancer at the moment.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Phantaram – Good topic. Thanks for taking the initiative.

I have mained Necro since Betas, and played a lot of necro in tourneys before the 6/25 patch (and some after, but I get bored with facerolling pretty fast so I run Guard or Mesmer more often now).

Overall the survivability of Necro still isn’t very good, it is just hard to tell because anything that gets within 1200 of you is dead in about 7s even if you are just kiting for your life and spamming to try and self-peel. Clearly this means that damage is too high at present. The problem is not a single item, and attempting to balance by nerf-hammering one thing would be a poor decision. The multi-faceted problem requires a multi-faceted solution.

The contributors to the problem:
1) Terror
2) Dhuumfire
3) Shroud #5
4) Marks
I am not counting Epidemic, Spectral Wall or any other utilities as part of the problem, because a good Necro can run any utility set they want in the current meta and still be a killing machine.

Thoughts and solutions
1) Terror damage is not too high, especially after the reduction. The issue is that it is also a CC and you eat every other cast while under its effect. Classes that have access to instant cast cleanses can mitigate the condi burst of a necro much more effectively than classes that do not. If you doubt this, then run a Mesmer with Mender’s Purity and Mantra of Recovery (not saying it is a good thing to do necessarily, but if your reaction time is marginally good, then Necros will not be able to Fear chain you at all). If Fear functioned like Immobilize (which it should) and allowed casting of skills while under its effect, then Terror would cease to be problematic at all. Any multi-condi cleanse cast during the necro burst chains would mitigate the damage a great deal, because Fear and either Bleed or Burn (or both) are highly likely to get cleansed.

2) Dhuumfire, just like Incendiary Ammo doesn’t encourage skilled play. I think that Proc on crit traits are just bad in general. In the case of Necromancer, I think that a inflicting burns when removing a boon trait would be better suited. It would allow for opponents to avoid the burning with skilled play or prudent use of boons rather than spamming, and indirectly buff Axe and Focus which generally see little play in the current meta.

3) Shroud #5 – The Torment isn’t a major issue, as its damage is not over the top, but the ability to AoE immobilize then drop a ridiculous amount of AoE on a whole team is a capability that is both extremely difficult to prevent and often chained with an AoE Fear that enables the same. This can lead to a small positioning mistake (getting too close together for .75s) wiping a whole team in about 5s. Shorten the leash range on Shroud 5 just a little bit, and the Necro who has no mobility can be kited during its obvious animation eliminating the Immob.

4) Marks – The Area of Effect is not the problem (traited grenades actually hit more area). The instant hit effect is not the problem either (traps do the same thing and are generally more damaging). Marks make counter-play extremely difficult because the animations are all identical, and the area indicators do not display when targeted properly and are difficult to differentiate even when they do display. A good solution for this would be to display the ground rings during cast (.75s is plenty of time to react), and give the caster an over-head animation that clearly indicates which mark is being cast. This would allow for counter-play by sidestepping the cast, dodge rolling , blocking (if Greater Marks isn’t in use), blinding and for key skills like Reaper’s Mark it would give an opportunity to pop stability before it can hit.

These are all fairly minor tweaks. The total damage capacity doesn’t really even need to be reduced by much (other classes still output more raw damage in less time), but enabling more counter-play against necros who are very difficult at present to mitigate is the key.

1.Can be countered by stunbreaker of stability. Dmg from terror is not so big without burning on the top.

2.Was already nerfed.

3.NO! DS#5 is best possobility for necro to escape, so aoe immobolize is not an issue and you know how hard is for necro to escape from the fight.

4.Each mark has own animation and necro is even POINTING where he is placing the mark. So there is no need for some red ring on terrain to show players where it will land.
Only think that could be improved is that mark on ground will have diffrent symboles in them, so players would see what mark is placed.

Also i agree that Necro is dealing good dmg in game, but also he will take all punches in his face, since he have almost non defencive utilitys. So it kinda balance it all. Personally i have no problems vs Terror/Condi Necros.

dont think u play a necro – Myrmidian Eudoros.4671… can u post some videos of u playing so i believe in what you said????

Allie Murdock.8152:

Ok, here’s the deal. I’m hearing different things from everyone I talk to.
1. Necro DS is too much and should be brought down
2. Necro damage is too much and should be brought down
3. Necro survivability is bad

Allie I’m not in the top-1000 so I don’t pretend to know the game better than Phantaram, but I’ve played a lot of pvp with necro and I know the class well.
The bottom line is all the above is true! Necromancers did very good damage even before Dhuumfire came in. Hardly anyone on the necro forums was asking for more damage, except to point out how abysmal the axe and staff autoattacks were. Dhuumfire was overkill. It’s nice to have a trait in the Spite tree to synergise with condition damage (makes a lot of sense because of the added condition duration and lends itself to interesting hybrid builds), but its damage was so good that it basically eclipsed all other possible condition builds! 30 in Spite and 20 in Curses became mandatory.

Having said that, it’s also true that necro survivability is bad. The current metagame is very cc-heavy – knockbacks, stuns, immobilises can be chained together so quickly that even if you pop your stunbreak and try clear the conditions off you (whether with Putrid Mark or Consume Conditions), it’s likely you’ll be interrupted again by another knockback, stun or daze before you’ve even finished casting! Foot in the Grave helps, but it doesn’t remove existing control effects and isn’t a stun breaker, so if you’re already stunned you have the option of going into DS to eat up the damage, and wasting your 3" stability, or popping your stun break and try to heal through the damage, before you’re either downed or stunned again. And here’s the kicker: Dhuumfire is so good, even in its nerfed 2" form, that nobody brings Foot in the Grave anyway! It’s simpler to just stay on the edges of the fight and run like hell as soon as you see anyone capable of stun-locking you heading towards you.

Necros are therefore in the bizarre situation of either feeling helpless cause they can’t escape when focussed and cc’ed, or making everyone else feel helpless due to the insane amount of conditions they’re pumping out, overwhelming an entire groups heals and cleanses. Helpless is not a good feeling in an actiony-game like this: when the game puts you in the situation where you might as well raise your hands up and walk away from the keyboard because there’s nothing your class can do, you feel cheated and frustrated.

Of course, you’ll say, no class is capable of completely stun-locking a necro long enough to kill them even through death shroud – what you’re describing is being focussed by at least 2 people, and in that situation it’s well and good you should go down – nobody should be able to stand there and eat 2 people’s burst. Well, yes, nobody else sits there and eats the burst, because, even though other classes apart from the necro can also pump out very good damage, they all have very good escapes (stealths, blinks, invulnerabilities, stability and stun breaks) that they can use when focussed. Necro is the only class that HAS to sit there and eat it. As you can imagine, not even high toughness and 2 health bars is enough to do that, particularly when one of those healthbars degenerates naturally and doesn’t let healing through!

It’s been mentioned by developers before that this is intentional: they WANT necro to have little access to stability, vigour, and escapes, because it’s counter to the flavour of the class. Well, yes, perhaps so, but it makes necros frustrating both to fight against and to play (depending on how good the necro player is at avoiding getting caught up in the fight). The solution to this problem is twofold:

1. Dhuumfire has to go. If the developers want to make Spite synergise with condition buiilds, move all the Staff traits from Death and Soul Reaping there, and merge them into 2. (no other weapon skills have 4 traits associated with them!)

2. either reconsider the design decision to limit the necromancer’s access to escape mechanisms (and provide more stun breaks, stability, and invulnerabiilty skills), or build in traits which inflict massive debuffs and damage to anyone hitting the necromancer while stunned, knocked down or in any other way disabled. More traits along the line of Reaper’s Protection or Ferar of Death is what I have in mind, or possibly something like Chaos Armour.

As far as your request for replays goes, I would seriously recommend that, rather than soliciting youtube videos from random forumites of mixed knowledge and ability, you should instead set up a private arena and invite some teams or players in the top-100 to play several matches out while you observe through their perspective. That way you’ll get people of proven skill and get a better idea of the situation.

ninao.1208:

dont think u play a necro – Myrmidian Eudoros.4671… can u post some videos of u playing so i believe in what you said????

Full and Fair Disclosure: I am 333 wins out of 635 matches as Necro in tourneys (NA), the vast majority of which was soloque. Not claiming to be a top tier player by any stretch of the imagination, but I believe that qualifies me to have an opinion on this issue, particularly because at least 550 of those matches were prior to the 6/25 patch when the state of the Necromancer was quite different.

I don’t feel that it is necessary to kitten to videos of my gameplay, and I neither record nor stream any of my play. Plenty of NA tourney players know who I am, however and can verify for you that I have in fact mained Necro from the beginning.

I think the recent EU tournament has shown that Necromancers still blow up too easily at the start of a fight. The ICD to Spectral Armor and Spectral Walk, at a minimum, should be re-evaluated or removed.