Guild Wars 2

Allie Murdock.8152:

The fix that is coming is in consideration of the time that we had to complete it. We are planning to rework some things when we have more time, but felt this would be sufficient for now, considering the first Qualifying tournament is tomorrow.

I hope that reworking the Dhuumfire trait will undo the Terror trait nerf. Why nerf Terror when it worked fine for almost an entire year since release and then everyone complains about it being OP after it was combined with Dhuumfire? Nerfing terror messed up many other builds that worked perfectly fine before Dhuumfire was introduced.

Kravick.4906:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Hey everyone! We have elected to “hotfix” the Necro and split Dhuumfire to bring it down a bit in PvP. This change will be in today, with patch notes in the usual place.

Thanks for the feedback!

Can’t you just get rid of it? Go look at the necro sub forum. There is an overwhelming outcry from us that we never wanted burning in the first place. It doesn’t fit the classes theme, its already gotten several of our traits nerfed as a result, and its causing nothing but trouble for everyone.

That sounds like too much work for ArenaNet.

My constructive thoughts are for everyone, developers included to read the following forum thread.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Necromancer-Bug-Compilation-Mk-II

Allie Murdock.8152:

The fix that is coming is in consideration of the time that we had to complete it. We are planning to rework some things when we have more time, but felt this would be sufficient for now, considering the first Qualifying tournament is tomorrow.

Thanks for putting in the extra work required to get things in order for the tournament! I know class balance is a tough problem to solve, and that you guys are doing everything you can to make all sides happy.

Allie Murdock.8152:

The fix that is coming is in consideration of the time that we had to complete it. We are planning to rework some things when we have more time, but felt this would be sufficient for now, considering the first Qualifying tournament is tomorrow.

I assume you are nerfing the Engineer trait as well? Oh wait…

I would completely remove Dhuumfire trait, but also I would remove engi trait as well. If every single engi and necro use those traits = op.
I would start from these traits and see how things go from there.

Oh look, there’s a wall I haven’t banged my head against for a while!
goes off to bang head against wall
If they don’t remove Dhuumfire or replace Burning with near-total uptime Torment, I’ll have to go find another wall to bang my head against.
I think this tournament will be very popcorn-worthy.

Allie Murdock.8152:

cymerdown.4103, Thank you so much for the kind words! I’ve been running around like a madwoman the past few days trying to make this happen. Really appreciate the encouragement.

<3

15chars

Allie Murdock.8152:

cymerdown.4103, Thank you so much for the kind words! I’ve been running around like a madwoman the past few days trying to make this happen. Really appreciate the encouragement.

No problem, I know you all really love the game and care about the community. While we may not all agree with each and every single decision made along the way, the game is moving in a generally positive direction, and that’s due to the hard work of you and the devs. Thanks!

Despite I like that Dhumfire got even before the tournement I dont think that this will change anything. Average/good necro is still able to 1shot targets by conditions since the burst time is underneath the 2 sec. Its the combination of burning, bleeding, fear, torment and terror which makes the necro so powerful. A necro in the current meta is not going for a long fight he spikes you with conditions and 3 ticks of burning less won’t change much :/.

Remove it completely would have been the better option.

HPLT.7132:

Despite I like that Dhumfire got even before the tournement I dont think that this will change anything. Average/good necro is still able to 1shot targets by conditions since the burst time is underneath the 2 sec. Its the combination of burning, bleeding, fear, torment and terror which makes the necro so powerful. A necro in the current meta is not going for a long fight he spikes you with conditions and 3 ticks of burning less won’t change much :/.

Remove it completely would have been the better option.

Well, at least burning got reduced from 6 to 3 seconds (accounting condi duration and kitten), so if you somehow survive being obliterated by the initial burst, you can be safe…maybe >.<

I’d just like to say I’m glad our heads are in the same place with the change:

jcbroe.4329:

Really the biggest issue comes up when you have Terror and Dhuumfire combined. There wasn’t too much of an issue before Dhuumfire was added to the game, but when it was, people immediately called it broken, specifically in Terror builds.

Dhuumfire burns for 5 seconds with Nightmare runes (a fairly common selection) and is able to do that every 10s. Coupled that with the ability to inflict every damaging condition in the game rapidly and on a fairly short cooldown, and that’s when it gets a bit too much.

Really, because I can’t comment on whether the patch reduced Terrors damage enough (Terror by the way being strong with the amount of damage it has the potential to do in a short amount of time when Death Shroud fear is available at the same time as staff 5), my initial reaction is to reduce the burning duration on dhuumfire to about 2s (that’s about an extra free 1k+ damage every 10s), and/or to add an ICD to Terror so that it can’t just be used to overkill people with fear and every other condition in the game.

Of course, adding an ICD to Terror would also imply that hidden ICDs are no longer hidden (something that desperately needs changing with the amount of important ICDs there are in the game currently), so that a person would be able to time their fears better and not have to guestimate/stopwatch themselves, which would add an interesting interactive element to it, because Necros would be able to choose when to use fear better with this setup, and not just spam/throw it out their whenever the hope it will work (which inevitably will happen).

But yeah, 2s Dhuumfire burn, and/or ICD to Terror.

:)

Just saying but i still have 5 second burning in the mists

So last posts are discussing about 1v1 scenario? What happened with the AoE + 1200 range debate?

On a serious note, keep burning, but remove the talent with on crit (change it to something that fits power builds) and add the burning to one of the marks from staff. Then everyone goes back to greater marks, no more condition duration, marks have a decent cooldown so you will get less burns than before, but this time they will be AoE and unblockable. Maybe put them on reaper mark, so we get the fear + terror + burning all in one. Am a genius, I know, such easy solution to complicated problem

Thanks!

I’m really happy that the fix is for the PvP side of the trait added that so many were upset with. With the nurfs to fear & terror, affecting builds that didn’t strictly use DFire. I was worried that next nerfs were on necro life pool, and direct damage. Even more on PvE getting hit again because of top PvP.

Still want to hint, I’d love to see PvE boost to Vamp/life siphon, minions that can stand up to dungeon boss’s. (Elite not despawning and going full CD when ya step in puddle)
Waves hand like jedi
Beefing up & testing things in PvE would make the big majority of the necro community feel loved. While giving you a testing ground for your tight pvp.

Good luck to all in the comp!

Allie Murdock.8152:

cymerdown.4103, Thank you so much for the kind words! I’ve been running around like a madwoman the past few days trying to make this happen. Really appreciate the encouragement.

I’d like to join the “Thank you Allie!!” crew. Danke Allie, E she Allie, Merci Allie, pakka per Allie, Gracias Allie. It is much appreciated even if we don’t mention it as much as we complain.

I’m really looking forward to playing tPvP now. Thanks for the quick turn-around on a sensible short-term fix, ANet.

For the people complaining about the Dhuumfire tweak:
1. This is an interim fix. It was something easy to change that didn’t require significant bug-testing and QA work. Completely re-working the ability is not something that can be done in a day when you consider the development overhead. Changing a number is.
2. This is a significant damage nerf to the popular condition necro builds. Cutting off 3 seconds of burning at 1300 condition damage is a reduction of over 1900 damage every 10 seconds. That can give their target a few extra seconds, which is a lot.
3. ANet is going to further adjust or change Dhuumfire and other aspects of necromancers and other professions in the future. So keep posting issues and suggestions for the future.

Kyzen.7452:

“Upon a Critical hit you will enable your next attack to inflict burning for x seconds, This effect can only trigger once every 10 seconds.”

Once you land a critical hit, an icon will appear much like basilisk venom or Incendiary Ammo allowing your opponents to see this and give them a chance to react & allow you to synergize with your team to use this more effectively.

This goes against the philosophy of playing the game and not the UI.

This really seems to go too far to me. I’m guessing many people will drop Dhuum now, in favor of Close to Death, or other traits.

Blackmoa.3186:

Just saying but i still have 5 second burning in the mists

It’s only in the mists/lobby area. If you enter a match, it will be the appropriate 2s+condi-duration.

Was confused initially as well.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Hey everyone! We have elected to “hotfix” the Necro and split Dhuumfire to bring it down a bit in PvP. This change will be in today, with patch notes in the usual place.

Thanks for the feedback!

That is not enough. Death Shroud needs to be changed for PVE. If another one of these PvP nerfs reduces the necromancer’s survivability even more, it will be impossible for necros in PVE to still join Fractals or dungeons. And I assure you, people will simply stop playing a necro in PVE. This last change was already over the line. We need to be able to absorb burst damage in PVE. All other classes have evades and invulnerability. We have none, and many bosses do one-hit kills!

Give us more PVE defense, or change Defiant on all bosses. Right now we have zero defense against that kind of damage. Also, we need Cleave on our axe/dagger to have proper DPS equal to what other classes have. Our damage is really poor in PVE.

This is a hotfix for the tourney. I don’t have a problem with that. I’m assuming/hoping (perhaps naively) that a more major and long-lasting change to dhuum and the profession as a whole will follow.

Allie, I appreciate what you’re doing in what is often a thankless job. xoxo

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Hey everyone! We have elected to “hotfix” the Necro and split Dhuumfire to bring it down a bit in PvP. This change will be in today, with patch notes in the usual place.

Thanks for the feedback!

That is not enough. Death Shroud needs to be changed for PVE. If another one of these PvP nerfs reduces the necromancer’s survivability even more, it will be impossible for necros in PVE to still join Fractals or dungeons. And I assure you, people will simply stop playing a necro in PVE. This last change was already over the line. We need to be able to absorb burst damage in PVE. All other classes have evades and invulnerability. We have none, and many bosses do one-hit kills!

Give us more PVE defense, or change Defiant on all bosses. Right now we have zero defense against that kind of damage. Also, we need Cleave on our axe/dagger to have proper DPS equal to what other classes have. Our damage is really poor in PVE.

…. did you even read the patch? this has zero effect on pve.

Does anyone else miss the days when Anet said they didn’t want to make changes too hastily since they wanted the meta to adapt to the ga e rather than adapt the game to the meta? I know I sure do.

Allie, I might not agree with your (Anet’s, not just your personally) stance on this but despite that I appreciate that you take the time to communicate with the community rather than just changing things in silence!

HPLT.7132:

Despite I like that Dhumfire got even before the tournement I dont think that this will change anything. Average/good necro is still able to 1shot targets by conditions since the burst time is underneath the 2 sec. Its the combination of burning, bleeding, fear, torment and terror which makes the necro so powerful. A necro in the current meta is not going for a long fight he spikes you with conditions and 3 ticks of burning less won’t change much :/.

Remove it completely would have been the better option.

I doubt people will run dhummfire now

Lordrosicky.5813:

I doubt people will run dhummfire now

Same here

I really wish this game had new devs.

I DO NOT mean to say “hey devs, you obviously do not care about this game”

Because that is obviously not true in the slightest, all I mean is that “there comes a point in time where, if you TRULY do care about something, you would realize when the best option for its future is to put your passion and yourself aside…”

garethh.3518:

Lordrosicky.5813:

I doubt people will run dhummfire now

Same here, 30 points in a useless tree for a subpar trait…
Oh fun…

I really wish this game had new devs.

I DO NOT mean to say: “hey devs, you obviously do not care about this game”

Because that is obviouosly not true, instead all I mean is that:
“if you really do care about GW2, you would realize when the best option for the game’s future is to put your passion and yourself aside…”

I like change. This is the change I championed (although to the engi trait too). I think necro is still decent and will now require skill. So I am happy.

I still think they need to bring down spirit rangers and engis.

Allie Murdock.8152:

The fix that is coming is in consideration of the time that we had to complete it. We are planning to rework some things when we have more time, but felt this would be sufficient for now, considering the first Qualifying tournament is tomorrow.

Why don’t you just remove necromancers from this tournament?

Anyway nobody’s going to play with it,

alemfi.5107:

…. did you even read the patch? this has zero effect on pve.

That is exactly the problem. The patch they did before that destroyed the necromancer survivability against spike damage in PVE. I couldn’t care five flying Dolyaks about Dhuumfire to begin with.

They need to fix the damage they did to PVE necros just for this dumb pax tournament. You can’t just balance an entire class based on feedback from pvp players only, -many of which don’t even play a necromancer. Tpvp is only a minor fraction of the player base. But there’s also WvW and PVE, and that last change to DS has affected both dramatically. We need some form of defense that scales against the sort of damage that PVE bosses and WvW zergs dish out.

The necromancer has no invincibility what so ever, while every single class has some form of measure to survive infinite amounts of damage from a single hit. That is not balanced. And now people are asking for even further nerfs of Death shroud? If the devs listen to this kind of one-sided nonsense, and use it to balance the PVE and WvW necro, our class will become unplayable in those areas of the game.

It was a bug. Unintended.

We freaked out when our teleport spots left, and you know what happened? We were told it was unintended. We were using a part of the game that should not have been there.

Same thing here. If you enter death shroud and you take 20k, the remainder should go to your health pool, which is the 2nd highest in the game ill add.

Quit complaining that a bug was fixed. And there is a little more emphasis on PvP right now because PvE is getting new content every 2 weeks and a major selling feature of GW2 is about to occur.

…so the only result of a “constructive” thread is a nerf?
Great.

Exedore.6320:

]This goes against the philosophy of playing the game and not the UI.

They already broke all their other ones, I’d rather they continue the pattern and implement something like this.

DXIEdge.2789:

It was a bug. Unintended.

We freaked out when our teleport spots left, and you know what happened? We were told it was unintended. We were using a part of the game that should not have been there.

Same thing here. If you enter death shroud and you take 20k, the remainder should go to your health pool, which is the 2nd highest in the game ill add.

Quit complaining that a bug was fixed. And there is a little more emphasis on PvP right now because PvE is getting new content every 2 weeks and a major selling feature of GW2 is about to occur.

This is not true. There was no bug with the overspill. It wasn’t like the game was coded to overspill excess damage to our health points. The bug was in the extra damage being taken while in Death Shroud. The Developers decided to tweak the mechanic to allow spilling. If it was a bug, then they would have said, “fixed a bug that prevented damage….”

So now can I get my old corrupt boon/terror back?

DXIEdge.2789:

It was a bug. Unintended.

We freaked out when our teleport spots left, and you know what happened? We were told it was unintended. We were using a part of the game that should not have been there.

Same thing here. If you enter death shroud and you take 20k, the remainder should go to your health pool, which is the 2nd highest in the game ill add.

Quit complaining that a bug was fixed. And there is a little more emphasis on PvP right now because PvE is getting new content every 2 weeks and a major selling feature of GW2 is about to occur.

ok ill stop you at that last part , new content every 2 weeks? you do realize most / if not all , are temporary content right? i wouldnt call that new content , i call it temporary at most. its short and due to it being limited , ppl burn through it fast rather then taking time and enjoying it , not that the content is bad but your mistaking in that sense , what happens 3 months from now? you dont experience current content because its TEMPORARY. please dont try to say were getting new content , theres no new main story expansions yet , no new land masses (in current map , which if youve done exploring , can see some possible ones that have been intentionally walled off btw).

DXIEdge.2789:

Quit complaining that a bug was fixed. And there is a little more emphasis on PvP right now because PvE is getting new content every 2 weeks and a major selling feature of GW2 is about to occur.

As another poster already stated, the bug was with necros taking too much damage while in DS, which explains why our life force evaporated so quickly. But the feature that DS could absorb any hit, and not have it spill into your health pool… that was not a bug. And they should put it back in for PVE and WvW.

The reason we complain, is that every class has a skill that allows them to avoid infinite damage from a single hit. Every class, except the necro. And that is not balanced. The PVE content, especially in dungeons, is rife with damage spikes that vastly exceed the max health pool of any player (Read: INSTA-KILL). This sort of survivability is needed for the necro to be viable in high end PVE. We can’t have these sort of insane damage numbers spill into our actual health pool. It doesn’t scale!

DXIEdge.2789:

It was a bug. Unintended.

We freaked out when our teleport spots left, and you know what happened? We were told it was unintended. We were using a part of the game that should not have been there.

Same thing here. If you enter death shroud and you take 20k, the remainder should go to your health pool, which is the 2nd highest in the game ill add.

Quit complaining that a bug was fixed. And there is a little more emphasis on PvP right now because PvE is getting new content every 2 weeks and a major selling feature of GW2 is about to occur.

The two classes with the highest health (warrior and necro) also have the worst survivability of all classes in the game. Think about that for a moment.

The Boz.2038:

…so the only result of a “constructive” thread is a nerf?
Great.

How constructive did you expect a thread regarding the balance of a single class to get on the SPvP forum of all places?

While it’s nice to see some actual communication between players and developers this was the wrong avenue for it altogether. This is a discussion which should be held with players who knows the ins and outs of the class. There have been tons of superb suggestions for changes related to Dhuumfire and the overall balance on the necromancer forum and yet that goes completely ignored in favor of rabblerabblenerfeverything. It’s ridiculous.

It would seem pretty obvious to me, that when you want to balance the necromancer… you ask necromancers for advise. And not warriors, guardians, elementalists etc.

Besides, the necromancer forum also has a mix of PVE and WvW necro-players, who might be able to warn you what effects a change might have for the class in other areas of the game.

Might be a good idea to get some advise there, before completely nuking our survivability into oblivion.

I too want to thank Allie for the posts in this thread. The confirmations that this game is balanced solely for a handful of high level tournament players, with no regard for the rest of your customers, will be invaluable in my decisions as to whether to continue supporting GW2 and ANET. So yeah, thanks!

Just tested Dhuumfire in the Mists, its duration is still 4 seconds (+ any condition duration bonuses via gear / the 30% from going 30 in Spite).

Is the patch applied yet? Because it seems as though nothing has changed.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

It would seem pretty obvious to me, that when you want to balance the necromancer… you ask necromancers for advise. And not warriors, guardians, elementalists etc.

Besides, the necromancer forum also has a mix of PVE and WvW necro-players, who might be able to warn you what effects a change might have for the class in other areas of the game.

I’m not even sure why we PVE/WvW players bother to discuss the class. The devs ignore us, and now the mods delete the largest balance discussion threads in the Necromancer forum. It appears that Anet not only doesn’t care about PVE/WvW balance, they don’t even want us discussing it in public. A sad, sad day.

Don’t get upset that players who do not participate in PvP want to be heard about any changes to their class. Would others be happy if we discussed, in the PvE/WvW forums, changes to “xxx class” that would hurt them in PvP, and get angry with PvP’ers who comment on the topic?

Bas.7406:

Bhawb.7408:

ANet, please don’t listen to people who have never played Necro past FotM builds in tournaments. They have no idea about the class as a whole, they jumped on board after we became too strong, and now are acting like they have half an idea about the class, and it is idiotic. I know you know and talk with the high tier actual necromancers, ones who really know and play the class, listen to them.

I liked the post in the Necromancer forums where the players stated that it angers him that for months the Necro learned to adapt and adjust to his lack of equality, and learned positioning, timing, and every trick in the book to stay alive and function. Once we got buffed it wasn’t the damage we didn’t ask for that was the issue it was the ease of life buffs we received that people complained about.

Terror was never a problem until recently, neither was our DS absorbing burst until our damage became out of control. For months we have had to adjust to the ridiculous S/D thief, the overpowered Ele Bunker, and the ridiculous Mesmer while remaining strong in our belief that if we just had the ability to sustain in a fight we would be on par. When our damage was buffed, and we continued playing the same way suddenly people were crying OP and to take away the core abilities that we learned to play with.

@jmatb It’s obvious you have never played a Necromancer, but instead are the one really bad guardian that every necromancer loves to feast on. Your changes are so anti-necro they are embarrassing to anyone who ever played the necro. Every single profession out there has an easy counter to the Necromancer (except maybe the Mesmer).

Hoping any dev reads this i wanna quote this good guy. It’s funny in one hand how all the non-necros, bandwagoners, or why not, people who just gone in rage becouse of a lost, talks about “balance” and then scream about nerf this and nerf that op op op. In the other hand is really sad when devs talks about hotfix. And i think is a little bit disrespectful to necromancer community becouse, how Bas said, we had to adjust to ridiculous builds for months while we got nerfs since the beta. And you all (or atleast almost all) know that this is true becouse YOU, dear eles, dear mesmers, dear etc etc etc played those ridiculous builds and you enjoyed it.
Sorry but the balance is a nother business, not only a rage becouse noone wants to adapt.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Hey all, just wanted to let you know that we’re watching this thread closely.

Really appreciate the constructive feedback, particularly yours, Phantaram. You seem to be analyzing from a very objective and unbiased point of view, which is very helpful.

As for the subject at hand, I don’t have anything to remark about it because we’re still wanting to see more constructive, unbiased feedback. We’ll continue to observe matches today to determine if any immediate action is necessary.

How about instead of asking for proof. And taking a year to fix downed hp… you people actually play necro yourself. Just once… you know.

Serdoc.7261:

Just tested Dhuumfire in the Mists, its duration is still 4 seconds (+ any condition duration bonuses via gear / the 30% from going 30 in Spite).

Is the patch applied yet? Because it seems as though nothing has changed.

The mists themselves aren’t a PvP zone, none of the split things so far work as their PvP versions…
Well, none as far as I know.

I think Dhuumfire is still worth it, mostly because nothing else in our trees is really that great.

With regards to Dhuumfire changes, you all have to see this.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Necro-Demotivational-Poster/first#post2496873

Lopez.7369:

I think Dhuumfire is still worth it, mostly because nothing else in our trees is really that great.

We do have way too many trash traits. The fact that reanimator still hasn’t been addressed is just baffling.