Guild Wars 2

Mister Fluffkin.7358:

/snip

Don’t forget the passive heal from Backpack Regenerator.

But yes, Automated Response is at the core of the problem. I play Engineer almost exclusively but I never touch that trait. I hate it with a passion. I’m close to reporting everyone who uses it. It is just griefing.

Rednik.3809:

When this abomination will be put back in line? If you ALWAYS need 2+ ppl just to stop 1 man from decap – this is not normal.

Nothing to see here, just l2p issue. Make engi and learn weakness of this class.

i’ve played decapper from time to time with lots of variations and over a long time (half a year?)
i have also tried the combination of ar+srd+pi+sa but personally i like to play somehow more agressive.
there of course are some pretty obvious drawbacks: first thing is that anyone with a decent amount of stability and/or knockback will just laugh at you (you can use the mine to rip stab, but you give up a lot of defense with that which is needed to hold far for a decent time) and you might be lacking manpower while the engi is trying to get far. this tactic is devastating if unsuccessful because either you’re one man down on mid or have no homeguard. there are also more specific counters: what i for example see very often is that people (especially necros) try to load as much conds as they can on an engineer if he gets near the 30% in order to have them locked in during the time of srd/ar since you can’t do anything in that form (this only counts if both traits are used together, as they mostly are). as another engineer i really love to have the bob waiting for them in place when they get out of invulnerability or can even prepare the shields stun (activate block half a sec before they get out and you have something like an instant interrupt ready if you are somewhere near them). well, any stun is good, just count down the seconds: at 3.5 cast your stun and burst down the last 20-25%. this way you can take out most of the engineers using this trait combination. it’s of course a lot harder to do that if they play without srd (which i would highly recommend) but most people use it.
anyway, apart from that i don’t really want to support passive play so i definitely want those traits changed, as i want every single trait changed that activates actual skills passively on any class.

tl:dr: pi+sa are fine, it’s the only counter the engineer has against massive stunspam by f.e. warriors. it makes us quite bunkery but it’s not a chance to restart like ar+srd which both i think absolutely need to be changed

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

No skill required, 100% effectiveness, spammable CC, no skill ceiling at all.
Reminds me of HamBow.

I dont play an engineer but engineers(and eles) are probably the hardest classes to play with and/or to master.

This is what I get for sharing my build

STOP making threads like this …. all day i get now 2+ bad engis in soloQ in my Team cause they read in forum it is OP

Why plays Cheesmode, Shad, etc. without decap engi?
I think he is OP and turns every match solo. Am I wrong?

What makes no sense to me is the fact that Automated Response is not a new skill. It’s been there since day one and has functioned the same as always. The only thing that was changed iirc is a bug fix so that enemies with over 100% condition duration could not overcome the 100% condition reduction of AR.

How come only recently it invites such QQ?

The only conclusion I can make is that the meta changed in such a way that now AR becomes strong. The solution is to change the meta again.

Emapudapus.1307:

As for power necro, in my opinion and experience, you must be prety lucky and outplay decap engi to kill it, not so easy. + he might cap point for them before you kill it.

I’m pretty sure he was joking, not really suggesting that the build with THE LEAST stability is good for pushing off the build with THE MOST knockbacks :p

On topic though, I don’;t think decap engis are that bad. They don’t do that much damage, their cc (except rifle 4) are telegraphed, and they’re not that tough. Anyone with ranged damage can cede the point to them for 10" and kill them from a distance, and anyone with stability can just ignore them.

Fasyx.9347:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

No skill required, 100% effectiveness, spammable CC, no skill ceiling at all.
Reminds me of HamBow.

I dont play an engineer but engineers(and eles) are probably the hardest classes to play with and/or to master.

Stop commenting without reading the OP. You clearly didn’t get the context of my post. We talk about bunker-decap-engineers, not other builds.

Lescansy.6174:

Why plays Cheesmode, Shad, etc. without decap engi?
I think he is OP and turns every match solo. Am I wrong?

coz they are running double warrs which are even more OP than AR engi

Can we all get back to the point where we agreed that when they nerf automated response this entire problem will be gone?

I mean you cant honestly believe that this simplistic build that requires little practice to be effective with is anything but disgusting? I’ve ran with it and God forgive me its equally as bad as condi-warriors maybe even worse.

Rather than remove AR I would rather see it remove all conditions at 25%, maybe apply something like protection or lay down a field, rather than become immune to conditions.

KraunK.2319:

Stop talking about nothing just cause ppl lack in experience. First decap engi is hard to play when you play against skilled ppl, even in a 1v1, you know, not just ppl that talk when they’re mad. You have to pay attention, you have just to defend, no damage. So what are we talking about? Decap Engineer hasn’t got stability normally , no break stun, 1 false step and you’re f. You have to evade the warning skills, you know, you have to know well who is in front if you. Not like you that just randomly talking. Play an engineer over 1k games and after that say: “it’s easy”. this is a Roled game, and one of the parts in pvp for an eng is this. Automated response(90s cd) could be as useful as useless. For sure against someone of you would be always useful, but those that know how’s working, Just stomp at 25% hp, go in 5 sec cd and the eng is at wp.
Usually when I play war or whatever against engineers, they’ve got like 5sec of pain.
How can you critic what you cant unerstand, never play with eng and talking. Quit.

Oh, here is another “everyone in this thread are unexperienced and need l2p” skilled decap engi.

“Kiijna (Warrior), Xast (Guardian), Satis Ironwail (Necromanser),
Sekhaina (Elementalist), Shira Forgesparkle (Mesmer), Sfeno (Ranger)”

LOL.

RaZaC.1963:

Can we all get back to the point where we agreed that when they nerf automated response this entire problem will be gone?

No, because I’d much rather agree that experienced engineer players don’t need AR to fulfill the same role and thus there will still exist the problem you are attempting to solve in the wrong way.

He’s referring to “Steamhawke”. Thee Decap Engi.

Chaba.5410:

RaZaC.1963:

Can we all get back to the point where we agreed that when they nerf automated response this entire problem will be gone?

No, because I’d much rather agree that experienced engineer players don’t need AR to fulfill the same role and thus there will still exist the problem you are attempting to solve in the wrong way.

Definetly not! Of course engis could build for decaping fast without AR but thats ok. The problem is the combination of decaping fast while beeing immune to half of the opponents.
Where´s the point in full immunity to anything? Its a freaking joke something like this is build into a competetive game.

Automated Response needs to change, but so do ALL immunity skills.

Reducing durations of conditions by 50% or cleansing all existing conditions seems more reasonable for an automated skill.

Elmo Benchwarmer.3025:

But yes, Automated Response is at the core of the problem. I play Engineer almost exclusively but I never touch that trait. I hate it with a passion. I’m close to reporting everyone who uses it. It is just griefing.

Grief traits are all the rage, I suggest you get used to it as I have because they are only growing in number

Mister Fluffkin.7358:

Chaba.5410:

RaZaC.1963:

Can we all get back to the point where we agreed that when they nerf automated response this entire problem will be gone?

No, because I’d much rather agree that experienced engineer players don’t need AR to fulfill the same role and thus there will still exist the problem you are attempting to solve in the wrong way.

Definetly not! Of course engis could build for decaping fast without AR but thats ok. The problem is the combination of decaping fast while beeing immune to half of the opponents.
Where´s the point in full immunity to anything? Its a freaking joke something like this is build into a competetive game.

We are talking about engineer being able to decap and needing 2 people to counter as the problem (which I don’t really see is a problem). Refer to OP.

Chaba.5410:

We are talking about engineer being able to decap and needing 2 people to counter as the problem (which I don’t really see is a problem). Refer to OP.

You don’t see a problem in forcing your team fighting 3v4?

Decap bunker engi isn’t the only issue here. What about hambow warriors, what about bunker guardians? I’m not arguing that decap engi isn’t good at doing what you describe, but they aren’t the only strong class at either decapping or holding a point.

Bottom line is guys, why should it be taken out? is it because:

1, It has little to no use in team fights
2, Cant kill a kitten on its back waving a white flag
3, Its sole purpose is to decap

A guardian can bunker a point 1v2 for a matter of time, Isn’t that similar/the same?

Just because an engi has CC and knocks that make up for a use of utility or team support why should that get taken away? I have seen currently 1 team use it in streamed fights since its been around. Imho this is a spec which will slowly phase out but be changed here and there according to team makeup and personal fun/preference.

Whoever said this is similar to HamBow is also having a Giraffe. HamBow has sustained dps and survivability. Engi decapper has Survivability, CC and that’s it. If you die to this spec then your doing it wrong. Also if you run it in Skyhammer you’ve won, I understand that frustration all too well. Generally people don’t like a build they QQ until it goes away, personally id rather find a way to combat it and fight on, would a team bring in a decap engi over a more useful team player? i think no…

I can understand the sentiment towards why this build is consider obnoxious. It doesn’t require you to fully engage your opponent. A large amount of the time you are just repeating rotations in a round about area. It doesn’t matter if you don’t get big ol’ bomb dead center, it’s AoE is large. It doesn’t matter if you don’t drop supply crate dead center, you just need to be sorta close to it. As long as conditions can be fully invested into with only one stat, it makes builds this impossible to balance in an overall scope of the game without having to balance them singularly as an entity unto themselves. When you make a balance decision in order to advance the game and then find yourself saying, “Now that we’ve balanced everyone else..let’s look at how we can balance engi/thief independently to fit into what we are trying to achieve for everyone else.” Their core mechanics are just too outta step with everyone else.

Until conditions feature like power based builds, things will remain out of whack. As much as power needs precision and crit damage to be effective, conditions should need base damage, intensity and duration.

I think what makes a decap engi needs to be defined in this thread. I seem people talking about obvious animations for the cc. Decap engi is not a bomb or bomb/nade engi. They rely on instant cc which is why its so hated. Ar is stupid and needs to be reworked but the decap engi problem is about terrible skill design. Hard to avoid getting knocked of point if everything is instant cast. No one cries about hammer guardian’s in kylo debunking people because banish is an obvious cast. If you got debunked it was because you suck or screwed up.

Nikkle.4013:

I think what makes a decap engi needs to be defined in this thread. I seem people talking about obvious animations for the cc. Decap engi is not a bomb or bomb/nade engi. They rely on instant cc which is why its so hated. Ar is stupid and needs to be reworked but the decap engi problem is about terrible skill design. Hard to avoid getting knocked of point if everything is instant cast. No one cries about hammer guardian’s in kylo debunking people because banish is an obvious cast. If you got debunked it was because you suck or screwed up.

Yeah, should define it first, it looks like every engi with rifle or flamethower could be called decap engi now.

But instant CC didn’t make them need to fight 2v1, since engi primary can’t conquer conditions, CC skills, and range attack very well. It should be easy to kill engi when you using CC skill combined with spike damage, I’ve seen thief, condi necro, hambow warrior, and mesmer could kill decap engi 1 by 1. You also can stay range to make him retreat, those instant CC only have 300~400 range, or stop him when he trying to approach nodes. Some parties even ignore the decap engi, take their home or win the mid, since decap engi party need to send their home defender to avoid losing mid 3v4.

And imo, fighting with 25%HP is a bad idea. Automated Response just makes escape easier, but engi can stealth himself, that makes AR isn’t that important.

what kind of build are you talking about? can someone link me?

are you talking about a bunker build?

0/0/20/30/20?

Divinity.8041:

what kind of build are you talking about? can someone link me?

are you talking about a bunker build?

0/0/20/30/20?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQFAUlIq6Zn1yuF17IxoCdO0jCbf1K6R+tsjB-TgAgzCmIMSZkzIjRSjsGB

Sorry for all the “haters” and “we need 2 people to kill a decap-egni”.
THAT is wrong.
A good Thief (S/P // S/D) and a 1on1 War (not Hambow) can kill an Engi alone.
Ranger (111111 …. 111111) too, but he needs to “freecap” the Point (not taken a cc).

With Nekro it’s tricky, but he can beat the engi too.
In the top 10 of Teamq are (max) 4 or less Teams who plays with a decap-engi, but all plays with guard and war.
The best 3 teams has all a Thief.

“Sorry for my english”

jebro.6370:

Bottom line is guys, why should it be taken out? is it because:

1, It has little to no use in team fights
2, Cant kill a kitten on its back waving a white flag
3, Its sole purpose is to decap

A guardian can bunker a point 1v2 for a matter of time, Isn’t that similar/the same?

Just because an engi has CC and knocks that make up for a use of utility or team support why should that get taken away? I have seen currently 1 team use it in streamed fights since its been around. Imho this is a spec which will slowly phase out but be changed here and there according to team makeup and personal fun/preference.

Whoever said this is similar to HamBow is also having a Giraffe. HamBow has sustained dps and survivability. Engi decapper has Survivability, CC and that’s it. If you die to this spec then your doing it wrong. Also if you run it in Skyhammer you’ve won, I understand that frustration all too well. Generally people don’t like a build they QQ until it goes away, personally id rather find a way to combat it and fight on, would a team bring in a decap engi over a more useful team player? i think no…

Maybe get a point of view from outside of streams, this sounds like your whole experience comes from watching streams where engis arent seen anyway…
In soloQ/higher teamQ, every 2nd match is at least 1 decapengi, its definetly one of the most common specs these days…

Lescansy.6174:

Sorry for all the “haters” and “we need 2 people to kill a decap-egni”.
THAT is wrong.
A good Thief (S/P // S/D) and a 1on1 War (not Hambow) can kill an Engi alone.
Ranger (111111 …. 111111) too, but he needs to “freecap” the Point (not taken a cc).

With Nekro it’s tricky, but he can beat the engi too.
In the top 10 of Teamq are (max) 4 or less Teams who plays with a decap-engi, but all plays with guard and war.
The best 3 teams has all a Thief.

“Sorry for my english”

If the engi isn´t completly braindead, you wont kill him on any thief/warrior. While playing engi exclusive, i only played decap engi for 2 or 3 matches so im pretty untrained with this, but im sure you wont kill me(or at least not under 5 minutes, while the node is mine after your stability ran out the first time). Just call me for some 1on1´s, so we can record this for the proof of your wise words.^^

Someone mentioned telegraph of engi skills compared to warrior’s…

Kits have specific looks for telegraph. Elixir gun and Flamethrower are quite obvious. If you see an engi equip the flamethrower, expect the knockback. Maybe if you can’t see these you need Anet to add little icons for you like Ele attunements.

The bomb kit is a little harder to see since there is nothing in the hands, but bombs have delays on detonation, especially the Big Ol’ Bomb that knocks you back. You have time!

Rifle’s overcharge shot doesn’t have a good telegraph because, as an escape mechanism/gap creator with the self-knockback, it is supposed to be insta-cast.

And if talking about the knockback from Accelerant-Packed Turrets, which is 10 points in Explosives not even in the reference build posted above, there’s the animation of placing turrets before they get detonated.

As for the build posted as reference above, that’s only one way to build a decap engi. You should come up with a different name for that build, maybe AR/heal bomb decap engi. I’ve seen people using it I guess. I stay out of the bomb AoE and DPS them down with my flamethrower, applying poison from elixir gun and pistol before the 25% mark to give them a hard time healing. Most people running that build have a hard time with timing the AR.

so 0/0//30/30/10 is this decap build?

there’s nothing wrong with decap engis:

http://i.imgur.com/85SCVzl.jpg

glaphen,
Not sure what point you are trying to make. Are you saying that the problem with the decap engineer build is a result of good players playing it? Or bad players playing against bad engineer?

Chaba.5410:

glaphen,
Not sure what point you are trying to make. Are you saying that the problem with the decap engineer build is a result of good players playing it? Or bad players playing against bad engineer?

If the problem is really the build, let’s stick with talking about the build.

Is it really that hard to understand that instant abilities have 0 counter play besides prediction? The problem is the skills not the build. Far too many Engineer and Necromancer skills have 0 animations and yet they keep nerfing Warrior animations every patch even though both those classes have tons of 0 animation skills that are far more dangerous.

Dahkeus.8243:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

No skill required, 100% effectiveness, spammable CC, no skill ceiling at all.
Reminds me of HamBow.

Engis actually probably require more skill than most other classes to really play well. Sure, the build is powerful and, as a result, still viable even in less capable hands, but the skill cap for playing the build well is much, much, much higher than hambow.

Engis required skills long time ago.

Fixed for you. It’s not matter of bad or good playing…if he has more knockbacks than your stability he’s gonna decap, end of the story. And running bunker he’s gonna survive forever since he’s not aiming on doing dmg or killing you…once you’re decapped you already lost. There are maps (khylo and foefire) where you can try to stand on fences holding for a little longer (Since most decappers atm are brainless just knocking you back without looking for positioning) but at temple or forest (Mine is the worst ever) it’s just a matter of time, you can’t even counter them with another decapper cause deccaping is way faster than capping it back…lol

Man, bombs are not instant.

Or maybe they can make the capture points bigger so that any knockback from dead center does not knock you out of the capture radius. I suggest this not because I play a bunker/decap engi but because I play an offensive engi and I can only see any nerf to a bunker/decap engi hurting all engi builds with the exception of a nerf to AR.

To those complaining that engi CCs have quick/instant cast while warrior/guardian hammer has more obvious animations, I say that it’s fair because engi CC does not have the big damage or the ease to use follow up damage after that CC. It’s far harder to burst a foe that you’ve knocked away as opposed to knocking a foe down right in front of you. You always know where the opponent will be on a knock down but you can only guess where he’ll land on a knockback/launch. Then you only have a split second to burst on him, usually with ranged attacks and ranged attacks are generally a lot less damaging than melee attacks.

Every bomb skill has the exact same animation and model so you cannot tell the difference between a Fire Bomb and a Concussion Bomb till its already hit you.

Zerker Engineers can do 10k in a Mine Field while removing 5 boons and 7k with a point blank Jump Shot which are easily castable in a 2 second stun. Slick Shoes will let you cast the combo twice in two different ways. Also the problem with it is again the 0 animation on any of their CC while you can see a Guardian casting Banish from a mile away. Shield of Absorption has a 40 second cooldown and doesn’t knock you down for 3 seconds nor as far. The only problem skill Warriors have is Fear Me which has a 60 second cooldown and using that interferes with the meta double stance, stability builds.

glaphen.5230:

Zerker Engineers can do 10k in a Mine Field while removing 5 boons

Seriously? Thats part of your complain? Who the heck goes out of their way to step on all of them?

Penguin.5197:

glaphen.5230:

Zerker Engineers can do 10k in a Mine Field while removing 5 boons

Seriously? Thats part of your complain? Who the heck goes out of their way to step on all of them?

Who said I was complaining, he said they don’t do damage because of their instant CC. They can detonate them all instantly too you know.

Right after the obviously long cast time.

Penguin.5197:

Right after the obviously long cast time.

The cast time is to place the mines not to detonate which can be activated during other actions. This is why I mentioned the Slick Shoes combo and the whole 2 seconds thing.

glaphen.5230:

Every bomb skill has the exact same animation and model so you cannot tell the difference between a Fire Bomb and a Concussion Bomb till its already hit you.

Zerker Engineers can do 10k in a Mine Field while removing 5 boons and 7k with a point blank Jump Shot which are easily castable in a 2 second stun. Slick Shoes will let you cast the combo twice in two different ways. Also the problem with it is again the 0 animation on any of their CC while you can see a Guardian casting Banish from a mile away. Shield of Absorption has a 40 second cooldown and doesn’t knock you down for 3 seconds nor as far. The only problem skill Warriors have is Fear Me which has a 60 second cooldown and using that interferes with the meta double stance, stability builds.

Do you know how hard it is to land bombs on good players? So I don’t see why you make it sound like it’s a big issue that there’s no way to differentiate between the bombs. Trust me, if I get the opportunity to land a bomb on you, you’d want to get out of the way regardless of what type it is. And most likely it’s not just going to be a regular skill 1 bomb. Not that I’m opposed to some way to differentiate (maybe different colors?) but I find it silly that you’re complaining about this.

As for mines and slick shoes combo, that’s a really hard combo to pull off. No one really uses that anymore because of that too because it’s a one trick pony. You dedicate two of your slots for this and has far less room for error than a hammer knockdown/burst. And if you make a mistake, you’re screwed because to do 10k+ damage on an engi means you have no defense at all. Don’t believe me? Try it.

Again, I’m not opposed to adding animations or tells but messing with the instant cast times on some of the CC would be horrible for the engi since it’s already hard to time some of those skills. Bombs already have a delay (Especially BOB). Mines have an obvious animation and need to be activated manually or the target has to walk over them. Slick Shoes requires you to be in melee range of the target unless the target was running after you but should have noticed the black streaks on the ground. I mean come on, if an engi is running towards you, then you should know it’s not good news. OBVIOUS sign. Magnet pull from the toolkit takes a second and has an obvious animation. Really the only instant cast that the engi has are knockbacks from the shield and flamethrower.

But hey weren’t we talking about DECAP ENGIS? Decap engis can’t use ANY of this to kill you. Unless you’re in the fight way too long to let him whittle your health down.

isolatedchimp.2510:

glaphen.5230:

Every bomb skill has the exact same animation and model so you cannot tell the difference between a Fire Bomb and a Concussion Bomb till its already hit you.

Zerker Engineers can do 10k in a Mine Field while removing 5 boons and 7k with a point blank Jump Shot which are easily castable in a 2 second stun. Slick Shoes will let you cast the combo twice in two different ways. Also the problem with it is again the 0 animation on any of their CC while you can see a Guardian casting Banish from a mile away. Shield of Absorption has a 40 second cooldown and doesn’t knock you down for 3 seconds nor as far. The only problem skill Warriors have is Fear Me which has a 60 second cooldown and using that interferes with the meta double stance, stability builds.

Do you know how hard it is to land bombs on good players? So I don’t see why you make it sound like it’s a big issue that there’s no way to differentiate between the bombs. Trust me, if I get the opportunity to land a bomb on you, you’d want to get out of the way regardless of what type it is. And most likely it’s not just going to be a regular skill 1 bomb. Not that I’m opposed to some way to differentiate (maybe different colors?) but I find it silly that you’re complaining about this.

As for mines and slick shoes combo, that’s a really hard combo to pull off. No one really uses that anymore because of that too because it’s a one trick pony. You dedicate two of your slots for this and has far less room for error than a hammer knockdown/burst. And if you make a mistake, you’re screwed because to do 10k+ damage on an engi means you have no defense at all. Don’t believe me? Try it.

Again, I’m not opposed to adding animations or tells but messing with the instant cast times on some of the CC would be horrible for the engi since it’s already hard to time some of those skills. Bombs already have a delay (Especially BOB). Mines have an obvious animation and need to be activated manually or the target has to walk over them. Slick Shoes requires you to be in melee range of the target unless the target was running after you but should have noticed the black streaks on the ground. I mean come on, if an engi is running towards you, then you should know it’s not good news. OBVIOUS sign. Magnet pull from the toolkit takes a second and has an obvious animation. Really the only instant cast that the engi has are knockbacks from the shield and flamethrower.

Bombs can take up the entire point so it isn’t exactly hard to hit unless your in WvW but this is the Spvp forums. I have no problem with BOB its a very balanced skill but Engineer has 4 instant CC skills and they have no counter play besides prediction or really long stability but its still impossible to get perma stability in Spvp.

just decided i HATE these engis with a fiery loathing.
just had a tourney game with an engi who was constantly spamming knockbacks (LITERALLY CONSTANTLY).
i play a (non meta) warrior who can dish out huge amounts of damage, but there is nothing you can do vs such redonkulous spam knockbacks. all it takes is a boon removal which i guess he got from sigil to remove stability, then you’re screwed…

glaphen.5230:

Bombs can take up the entire point so it isn’t exactly hard to hit unless your in WvW but this is the Spvp forums. I have no problem with BOB its a very balanced skill but Engineer has 4 instant CC skills and they have no counter play besides prediction or really long stability but its still impossible to get perma stability in Spvp.

Like I said before. Knockbacks can’t get you chain stunned/burst the way hammers can, so I think it’s fair that they’re instant cast. What are the other two instant CC skills are you talking about? The slicks shoes/mines thing? Those are VERY obvious tells. Pretty much in ANY case where an engi is trying to get near you is a sign to get away.

Fire bomb and concussion bomb? You realize NONE of those knock you off point, yes? We ARE talking about decap engineer. The only reason for bomb kit by decap engineer is for the knockback from Big Ol’ Bomb, which is a GIANT BARREL. /facepalm