Guild Wars 2

i hope they make the fights last longer now that esports is not a thing

jihm.2315:

i hope they make the fights last longer now that esports is not a thing

Back to bunker meta? I hope you’re not serious.

Mr Godlike.6098:

Oldirtbeard.9834:

Here’s an article from MassivelyOP covering ESL dropping GW2 from Professional Gaming,

http://massivelyop.com/2017/04/04/esl-gaming-is-shutting-down-guild-wars-2s-e-sports-section/

perhaps ANet can reallocate those resources into making an easier Tier for Raiding comparable to Fractals T1 and T2?

So about that…money from esports where purely from marketing budget, not from developers pockets or any resources tied with game development. All money was from marketing budget.

Truth is that this anet has already money to put effort in any part of the game. Esport money pool is laughable for company big as Anet.

So now there is no esports so I guess we will see more gw 2 banners and adds around internet.

Besides as already certain somebody pointed out – there wasn’t any esport event in half an year…did you noticed any of good quality content in gw 2?

Good quality content in gw2? I have never seen that in the game. I don’t even know what it means.

fumbii.3582:

jihm.2315:

i hope they make the fights last longer now that esports is not a thing

Back to bunker meta? I hope you’re not serious.

have you ever played other mmos?
longer fights doesnt mean that you have to be bunker lol

The Ace.9105:

Mr Godlike.6098:

Oldirtbeard.9834:

Here’s an article from MassivelyOP covering ESL dropping GW2 from Professional Gaming,

http://massivelyop.com/2017/04/04/esl-gaming-is-shutting-down-guild-wars-2s-e-sports-section/

perhaps ANet can reallocate those resources into making an easier Tier for Raiding comparable to Fractals T1 and T2?

So about that…money from esports where purely from marketing budget, not from developers pockets or any resources tied with game development. All money was from marketing budget.

Truth is that this anet has already money to put effort in any part of the game. Esport money pool is laughable for company big as Anet.

So now there is no esports so I guess we will see more gw 2 banners and adds around internet.

Besides as already certain somebody pointed out – there wasn’t any esport event in half an year…did you noticed any of good quality content in gw 2?

Good quality content in gw2? I have never seen that in the game. I don’t even know what it means.

And you are here why?
I’d like to hear the answer. You either post in a forum of a game that is below your standards or you are lying. In either case you are not doing yourself a favor.

On the other hand, I do not care that much..

I don’t think peoples issue with pvp in general has to do with balancing other than the infrequent updates.

The issue is conquest is not friendly to the layman nor is it very fun by itself to play. To compare it to the joy that was GvG in the original series, it’s not even near the same level of fun.

You can’t just throw esports at a game and then it happens, even if you create a balanced mode it still has to be fun and accessible to most players without a high rate of failure because this game does kitten all to teach you how to play.

The game from the start should have included all sorts of fun pvp modes like arenas, GvG, HA, JQ, and FA. Those are what we loved from the original.

A new player isn’t gonna wanna hop into conquest, I mean you will get absolutely demolished repeatedly unless you know what you’re doing. I don’t see this any different to starting battlegrounds in other MMOs once you hit cap and have questing greens on. It just isn’t fair to new players.

Now, it’s not just an issue with new players either. Veterans would appreciate if their ONE mode available that isn’t a complete joke to not suck due to stale metas, lack of content updates, etc.

I personally find my enjoyment from conquest performing my roll well and really showing it to the team, so I don’t really have issues with it. I can definitely see where the boredom and the intimidation come from, though.

I love this games pvp either way no matter what happens because of one simple fact: no grinding for gear. Honestly I would love to do some arenas in WoW but since gear still matters I can’t bring myself to grind that stupid crap every kitten season. (and yes gear does still matter if anyone tries to argue this in Legion)

The same goes for pretty much every other MMO, and the ones that are similar to GW2 have crap combat and mechanics.

I just hope ANet wakes up and understands that they should have first and foremost made a FUN and appealing pvp structure with variety that everyone wants to be a part of, not just the pro’s.

I think the current population of pvp speaks for itself, FYI I think the game has always been fairly balanced (aside from launch lol) but that doesn’t mean that the balance isn’t cancer gameplay.

Any way.. rant over. Just wanted to clear that up xD

Rukia.9860:

I don’t think peoples issue with pvp in general has to do with balancing other than the infrequent updates.

The issue is conquest is not friendly to the layman nor is it very fun by itself to play. To compare it to the joy that was GvG in the original series, it’s not even near the same level of fun.

You can’t just throw esports at a game and then it happens, even if you create a balanced mode it still has to be fun and accessible to most players without a high rate of failure because this game does kitten all to teach you how to play.

The game from the start should have included all sorts of fun pvp modes like arenas, GvG, HA, JQ, and FA. Those are what we loved from the original.

A new player isn’t gonna wanna hop into conquest, I mean you will get absolutely demolished repeatedly unless you know what you’re doing. I don’t see this any different to starting battlegrounds in other MMOs once you hit cap and have questing greens on. It just isn’t fair to new players.

Now, it’s not just an issue with new players either. Veterans would appreciate if their ONE mode available that isn’t a complete joke to not suck due to stale metas, lack of content updates, etc.

I personally find my enjoyment from conquest performing my roll well and really showing it to the team, so I don’t really have issues with it. I can definitely see where the boredom and the intimidation come from, though.

I love this games pvp either way no matter what happens because of one simple fact: no grinding for gear. Honestly I would love to do some arenas in WoW but since gear still matters I can’t bring myself to grind that stupid crap every kitten season. (and yes gear does still matter if anyone tries to argue this in Legion)

The same goes for pretty much every other MMO, and the ones that are similar to GW2 have crap combat and mechanics.

I just hope ANet wakes up and understands that they should have first and foremost made a FUN and appealing pvp structure with variety that everyone wants to be a part of, not just the pro’s.

I think the current population of pvp speaks for itself, FYI I think the game has always been fairly balanced (aside from launch lol) but that doesn’t mean that the balance isn’t cancer gameplay.

Any way.. rant over. Just wanted to clear that up xD

“FUN and appealing”

Exactly, so it’s such a shame that so many people here are so narrow-minded to even acknowledged that. Pretty much the most important things.

Knew that was done I don’t need to see an official notification about something that was apparent if you could put 2 and 2 together months ago. For all the people sad to see it gone I dont know why that misguided e-sports stuff is what killed the game.

doomslayer.6574:

Jana plz come back to Darkhaven <3

I have never been on Darkhaven: I’m proud to have annoyed IoJ (NA), MS (EU), SBI (NA), GH (EU), Deso (EU), Piken (EU), GH (EU), Gandara (EU) – GH are still branded by my stay.
You might confuse me with another Jana ;) (But thank you)

forum bug forum bug forum bug forum bug

Two words,
Doughnuts.

I’m not surprised by this. Esports was always destined to fail. This artificial PvP “competitive scene” was nothing more than smoke and mirrors. To add, ANet balanced PvP around pro-leaguer interests instead of the average player. That is a guaranteed way to drive people away from this game. You just end up making a minority of players happy at everyones’ expense. That people in these forums thought esports was a good thing for this game is disappointing. All that esports marketing….for what? OP elite specs, broken leagues, lack of balance.

Now, there’s a chance to finally fix PvP and make it fun to play instead of trying to make it “competitive”. Dare I say, there’s also a chance to move into WvW, which badly needs attention more than PvP.

JTGuevara.9018:

To add, ANet balanced PvP around pro-leaguer interests instead of the average player. That is a guaranteed way to drive people away from this game. You just end up making a minority of players happy at everyones’ expense.

Not really directed to you but to everybody who said it on this forum:
Balance is what makes a game fun. If you don’t have to stand in front of your opponent “Nah, I better run, have got no chance against him anyway”. And if a win actually feels like a win and not “I guess I’ve won because I’m running an OP build”.
I bet the PvP team took those elite players and watched them play to see what needs to be changed. BUT they can’t change the traits, they can only change the amuletts, that’s why a lot of those have vanished, so that you PvP guys have got at least some balance. It’s a bit unfair to say that those who worked on everybody’s fun were taking the fun away. As far as I know the traits that caused that chaos are still in game, so if these amuletts will be brought back the bunker meta will come back.
And yeah, a competitive game mode should be competitive.
And if anet listens to the complaints “we want more casual” in this thread, then the game really is doomed. Casual kills.

JTGuevara.9018:

I’m not surprised by this. Esports was always destined to fail. This artificial PvP “competitive scene” was nothing more than smoke and mirrors. To add, ANet balanced PvP around pro-leaguer interests instead of the average player. That is a guaranteed way to drive people away from this game. You just end up making a minority of players happy at everyones’ expense. That people in these forums thought esports was a good thing for this game is disappointing. All that esports marketing….for what? OP elite specs, broken leagues, lack of balance.

Now, there’s a chance to finally fix PvP and make it fun to play instead of trying to make it “competitive”. Dare I say, there’s also a chance to move into WvW, which badly needs attention more than PvP.

+1

Faux Play.6104:

Woof.8246:

Trigr.6481:

Faux Play.6104:

lorddavito.2395:

If only they listened to the community This could have been avoided.

The community doesn’t have the best track record for recommending changes. I would also argue that the community did not go out of its way to make it successful. There were a few people that made an effort to make it successful, but not nearly enough.

It’s not the communities responsibility to go out of their way to make it successful, if it were I’d expect to be paid for it.

This ^-^
Its not the problem of the top players/streamers , to do this

How many little league coaches are paid? How many kids soccer coaches and refs are paid? Those sports are much more successful than any “esport”. If the community doesn’t try to grow itself, it will shrink as people leave to play the next new game.

The community tried to grow, the game and the devs restricted that growth, to downright halting it with minimal balance patches, poor balance patches, power creep, little to no communication between the dev team and the community, etc. Their priorities are backwards, you cannot expect to have a game that’s falling apart from the inside out and expect that the community as a whole to going to go out of its way to turn what’s essentially trash and transform it into gold.

Balance first, marketing a esport second, if at all. Not the other way around.

Let’s be honest…MMORPG’s aren’t really good for E-Sports. It is boring to watch. I was once a ESL player too years ago in BFME 1 & 2. Secondary most Pro Players nowdays acting like divas. Man i miss the 90’s and the early 2000s.

Has there been any MMO with actually popular esports? By nature MMO’s tend to be confusing/ hard to follow for spectators unlike games like League or CSGO that are easy to watch.

ima kongkittenninja.3052:

You are surprised? I’ve seen this coming since November:(

I saw it when ESL became a thing. I believe my words were “The game is so unbalanced atm, why are they pushing any type of esports?”

And here we are.

Bad management, poor design choices, a lack of vision from the game director, and a lack of proper communication.

It FEELS like people at anet are just lazy, I know thats not the case (well I hope, at least), because they hardly get anything done., and when they do it’s a mess.

Kahrgan.7401:

ima kongkittenninja.3052:

You are surprised? I’ve seen this coming since November:(

I saw it when ESL became a thing. I believe my words were “The game is so unbalanced atm, why are they pushing any type of esports?”

And here we are.

Bad management, poor design choices, a lack of vision from the game director, and a lack of proper communication.

It FEELS like people at anet are just lazy, I know thats not the case (well I hope, at least), because they hardly get anything done., and when they do it’s a mess.

Axe is in a pretty good place right now IMO.

Kahrgan.7401:

ima kongkittenninja.3052:

You are surprised? I’ve seen this coming since November:(

I saw it when ESL became a thing. I believe my words were “The game is so unbalanced atm, why are they pushing any type of esports?”

And here we are.

Bad management, poor design choices, a lack of vision from the game director, and a lack of proper communication.

It FEELS like people at anet are just lazy, I know thats not the case (well I hope, at least), because they hardly get anything done., and when they do it’s a mess.

They aren’t lazy, I just doubt they have any real vision for where they want to take PvP and WvW.

@OriOri.8724

This last comment i believe is where Anet should of headed.

Really focusing on the PvP side of balance when it came down to builds.

For instance the turret engy is a good example, the build itself was way to OP for casual play. Yet they nerfed it into the ground. Instead of making turrets scale with the amulet they straight destroyed turrets. Instead of giving them longer CD they they simply put no effort into balancing.

Its why people dont have good memories of the cele amulet era. Anet could of easily fixed it by making bunker classes better bunkers and DPS classes better risk reward builds. Instead it was to easy to have it all with 3-4 cele builds.

Obviously the HOT specs really got rid of the idea of give and take but the idea Anet will fix any issues with WvW and PvP is laughable.

On a side note for everyone else, why fix it now? There will be no WvW tournaments, no PvP tournaments and anyone who knows how the business accounts work know Anet will not put marketing money into the game production money.

In the most likely circumstance they will put more ads into the next upcoming expansion or t-shirts and hats at a open viewing for there live events. Such as game con, comicon or a cosplay event.

The push for Esports was because GW2 mechanically is so close to perfect. All that happened was Anet wanted to balanced around PvE instead of PvP. The idea of potentially running a power necro on 1 team and another team running wells and both teams having good success was a incredible idea.

Heck the Chinese team brought a MM necro and had he ran a better build he would of won a 1 vs 1 vs the d/d ele. It was this part of the game that really could of made it special.

Had this game hit build diversity properly, we could of had heurix and storm breaking down builds and style of play. Explaining how the game and potential mechanics could work.

But that chance has gone, so why would anything change for the better now?

Crinn.7864:

fumbii.3582:

It was most likely marketing money, so now you will most likely see more gw2 ads.

Which this game could honestly use. For a AAA title this game has about as much advertising as a steam game.

Gw2 isnt a AAA title though.

NEW MANIFESTO please please please. Somebody else needs to talk about swinging swords.

we are gonna get another tonic update. this time all tonics can jump, which is actually a really good fix. I can finally do jumping puzzles in the best tonic available, the snowman.

Stand The Wall.6987:

we are gonna get another tonic update. this time all tonics can jump, which is actually a really good fix. I can finally do jumping puzzles in the best tonic available, the snowman.

The best thing that’s ever happend in GW2 history.. the jumping Snowman on the Super Cloud Glider.

Does this mean ANet ill go abck to its roots and actually turn this into a good game? Meaning we get fun/goofy skills, lots of wacky build diversity, back to more events like SAB, and get rid of this stupid 5v5 crap and push 10v10 gameplay with some actual creative maps that possibly have hazards!?

This is actually a good thing, this pvp was never gonna be a esports because Anet failed to understand what made matches interesting. hopefully now theyl learn later down the line and focus on making each class unique like it was supposed to be.

Money to skill development thats not behind a cash wall maybe. I hope.

So did the ESL come to the forums and see what we are all saying and agree that PvP is a bad joke and put the sad esports dream down like the sick animal it was.

Creation of new API game , where each enemy kill removes a layer of cloth from Zoose + Arcandis , Powerr and Helseth :P

I dont particularly care about bunker specs, all that’s kittening me off are the passive triggered defenses. No class should get a free bail-out card just because they dropped to “insert number” health percent. For a lot of classes the defenses are up for so long that it’s a battle of patience to make enemy use skills and then kill. Negates all chance of counter play.

Hey all,

Just to clarify a few misunderstandings around the GW2 section on ESL Play closing down:

" We are only talking about our #ESLPlay activities, which will end after today’s cup. "
" This does not exclude us to do any GW2 activities in the future as we had a great time with the game and the community in the past years. "

https://twitter.com/ESLGW2/status/849949931624443904
https://twitter.com/ESLGW2/status/849950170305277953

I think i have to celebrate until tomorrow morning. The next thing they have to do is shutdown the PVP tournament.

cpchow.7416:

I think i have to celebrate until tomorrow morning. The next thing they have to do is shutdown the PVP tournament.

What pvp tournament?

Not meaning to rub salt into a wound, but as a semi-casual yet 100% committed old-school PvPer I am not sad to finally be rid of ESL in this game. I have said it many times before, but I never felt like ESL was improving the game, and most of all the fun-factor of PvP in this game.

I agree with many above that I hope we can look forward to more frequent balance updates, improving build diversity by actually fixing the many many broken aspects of all professions.

Probably a pipe dream, but if you take the grind out of PvP again and simply focus on fun —and not competition-- then I think you will win back a few hearts down the road. The PvP in this game is very solid at the core, and thus still has a lot of potential IMO…if Anet decides to focus more on fun and diversity, rather than focusing entirely on competition and with that homogeny in an attempt to make balancing easier.

Windwalker.7421:

Not meaning to rub salt into a wound, but as a semi-casual yet 100% committed old-school PvPer I am not sad to finally be rid of ESL in this game. I have said it many times before, but I never felt like ESL was improving the game, and most of all the fun-factor of PvP in this game.

I agree with many above that I hope we can look forward to more frequent balance updates, improving build diversity by actually fixing the many many broken aspects of all professions.

Probably a pipe dream, but if you take the grind out of PvP again and simply focus on fun —and not competition-- then I think you will win back a few hearts down the road. The PvP in this game is very solid at the core, and thus still has a lot of potential IMO…if Anet decides to focus more on fun and diversity, rather than focusing entirely on competition and with that homogeny in an attempt to make balancing easier.

Why would they fix it now?

The only reason they fixed ghost thief in WvW was because a thief posted a youtube video of them killing sloth in a raid.

I can make a stronger argument that ESL forced Anet to make changes. More then Anet actually wants to balance PvP/ WvW because they only do that when PvE is some how effected.

Hey all,

Just to clarify a few misunderstandings around the GW2 section on ESL Play closing down:

" We are only talking about our #ESLPlay activities, which will end after today’s cup. "
" This does not exclude us to do any GW2 activities in the future as we had a great time with the game and the community in the past years. "

https://twitter.com/ESLGW2/status/849949931624443904
https://twitter.com/ESLGW2/status/849950170305277953

If where willing to hug Helseth and tell him ‘’i am sorry’’ ,
then i would surely forgive you :PPPP

Brix.8461:

Hey all,

Just to clarify a few misunderstandings around the GW2 section on ESL Play closing down:

" We are only talking about our #ESLPlay activities, which will end after today’s cup. "
" This does not exclude us to do any GW2 activities in the future as we had a great time with the game and the community in the past years. "

https://twitter.com/ESLGW2/status/849949931624443904
https://twitter.com/ESLGW2/status/849950170305277953

Look’s like somebody panicked at devs side and ask ESL to do the talking for them again. Unfortunately this statement means completely nothing if you think about it. They might someday somewhere someday do something….i totally see people not leaving. Season 7 is dead sure.

Well I was fortunate enough to get into the scene during the last tourney but there’s was several players who wanted to practice really hard to form a team and compete.Is a real shame and now that there’s no incentive for competitive team play the population of this game will dwindle down to nothing.Great job you let a game with the best platform I’ve ever scene die due to poor and inadequate management.

OriOri.8724:

I agree that the absolute best thing Anet could do to improve PvP (and also the least likely to happen) is to just suck it up and nerf all the elite specs to be in line with core specs (and yes Anet, this means severely nerfing the mechanic of most elite specs as well).

Yes lets nerf DH virtues down to core virtue levels where you leave them on passive all the time because the active is such absolute trash. Whoo a 45sec cd skill that gives 1 aegis stack much wow

Let bring reaper’s shroud down to death shroud level. Where the shroud skills are so trash that staff (a utility weapon) does more dps than shroud. Where the only skills worth the time it takes to cast is DS3 and that’s only because DS3 has no cast time.

Lets go back to core warrior, where you spend all your time spamming autos waiting for that f1 to come because you’ve got nothing else to do.

Lets go back to core ranger which was so bad that it was never meta even once.

Lets go back to rifle engi, a weapon that has a perpetual identity crisis about whether it’s ranged or melee.

Lets go back to core Mesmer, where the shatter mechanikittenerally works against the class.

Elites are not OP because they are badly designed. Elites are OP because they where well designed. Because Elites where designed to be desirable, compared to core where class only have a couple good skills and the rest is junk that you only take because you’ve got nothing better to take.

Nerfing elites to core would be a total regression. It’s like buying a horse just to spite your car.

I am glad it’s gone now they can work on making pvp actually balanced and not just making do to meet the next esl deadline.

But it has already done some damage by putting off quite a few potential pvpers so hopefully they can recover.

Drakz.7051:

I am glad it’s gone now they can work on making pvp actually balanced and not just making do to meet the next esl deadline.

But it has already done some damage by putting off quite a few potential pvpers so hopefully they can recover.

honestly, i would love to know why you think anet abandoning competitive PvP means they are going to actually balance the game. like, if they were unable to balance when they were trying to create an esports, why do you think they will be able/want to balance now?

Kuya.6495:

I just think that ultimately this is the result of them not making enough money to retain and hire new and competent talent. They have probably switched their priorities to the next expansion and abandoned less successful areas of the game until they can get revenue up.

To be fair, MMOs in general don’t have good PvP. GW2’s action style combat system is really a massive factor in what has retained player interest. Unfortunately GW2 just feels like their was so much pressure to have the game do well financially that the long term health of the game was sacrificed for short term gains. Both staff and players have moved on, and with the stated philosophy of not revisiting or reworking existing content/systems the issues introduced with HoT are not only here to stay, but will be built on with the next expac. For example HoT injected a disgusting amount of power creep into the game and most likely the next expac will do the same to encourage sales.

The game also largely feels like its being balanced more around raid content (this is likely the content we’d find Anet’s whales playing) which is incredibly lame for the competitive areas of the game.

Ok I Did It.2854:

I doubt we will get any official comment from Anet on the forums, but I wonder now does this mean they are going to completely ignore PvP now and all its issues, or will they update the game to completely remove PvP from it.

There’s no sense in them putting in any time or effort in outright removing the pvp area of the game. Much like wvw, they can simply ignore the gamemode and/or add extremely low effort and low risk elements and just let the pvp disappear on its own.

Ramoth.9064:

the ’hahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahhahahahhaahahahaha’s were the correct response. This is what Arenanet gets for constantly ignoring the community’s issues and suggestions

Perhaps Anet wasn’t investing their money or effort in a way or area of the game you prefer, but its disappoint to see the doors close on a more competitive pvp scene. This is just another entry point or point of interest for players coming to the game removed.

Frost.5017:

Ramoth.9064:

the ’hahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahhahahahhaahahahaha’s were the correct response. This is what Arenanet gets for constantly ignoring the community’s issues and suggestions

Perhaps Anet wasn’t investing their money or effort in a way or area of the game you prefer, but its disappoint to see the doors close on a more competitive pvp scene. This is just another entry point or point of interest for players coming to the game removed.

Pretty much. Well said. It is pretty sad. However even I’m pretty sure for everyone of us PvPers ANet kicked out of the game. There was 5 or more PvE Whales to replace us. More so with the game very blatantly being completely balanced around PvE/Raids. As someone has said in the past “Money talks, and BS walks”.

Im hoping they learn from this after turning their backs on a real chance at pvp. What happened to gw1 style of kill or be killed? This conquest crap of holding little circles does not work for competitive play I’m sorry. Balances can only do so much. The main issue is the 5v5 hold little circles mode.

the whole esl thing is a joke,glad its gone

They don’t have the player base for ESL due to balancing issues and teh fact that the toxicity in PvP in insane (more-so than in WvW and there are more ppl in WvW). Its definitely no surprise and maybe this will be a wake up call for ANET and players alike (although im not holding my breath for at least the 2nd one).

We can blame Anet all we want but they only take half the blame…the players need to accept the other half.

Ziggityzog.7389:

Im hoping they learn from this after turning their backs on a real chance at pvp. What happened to gw1 style of kill or be killed? This conquest crap of holding little circles does not work for competitive play I’m sorry. Balances can only do so much. The main issue is the 5v5 hold little circles mode.

This is why courtyard was fun…no bs points to contest just “kill or be killed” fun where players required to plan real strats to survive.

Ziggityzog.7389:

Im hoping they learn from this after turning their backs on a real chance at pvp. What happened to gw1 style of kill or be killed? This conquest crap of holding little circles does not work for competitive play I’m sorry. Balances can only do so much. The main issue is the 5v5 hold little circles mode.

More then likely the only lesson ANet will take out of this is.

“Don’t add or promote Player versus Player modes in GW3.”

Yeah this version of conquest only works in shooters with better map depth. Conquest before HoT was still fun even tho flawed. However HoT blow the doors wide open on the flaws of this type of conquest in a MMORPG. Hell even MOBAs refuse to use conquest in this format.

ANet refusal to balance, and keep the game mode fresh. On top of they being no other choices of game modes then this type of conquest. Didn’t help either. Even when there was actual ESL matches. GW2’s version of conquest was at a grade level of a F. Compared to the other games version of Conquest. Hence why people didn’t really bother to watch it even with the precursors promos.

Too bad tho. GW2 did have a great combat system. It’s combat system screamed PvP, however everything else after HoT didn’t. Will be interesting to see is ESO can do better in June with the release of 4v4v4 battlegrounds. I don’t hold my breath too much tho. It is also a MMORPG after all. Tho the one saving grace for ESO is that ZOS completely balance that game around it’s PvP. I doubt it’ll be enoth without huge itemization changes and re-balancing, and another full on class re-balance. ZOS has been going full on try hard mode with ESO in these past 7 months tho. So there is still a glint of hope however slim it is.