Guild Wars 2

JinDaVikk.7291:

^^ what you just said makes ur post worthless.

Bunker guardian can survive far longer in every situation than engi.

lol GG

No way. I stall 2-3 people for a good minute or two with my Engi. I run out of abilities and die quicker on my Guardian. And I have a lot more games on my Guardian 1000 vs 200.

Look at it this way. From my healing turret alone I can get a 4 sec reflective shield every 15 sec… just from that one turret. That is a lot of ranged damage I am not even taking. I have 3 other turrets and crates that also give the shield.

I can drop Turrets then run behind obstacles. I can keep damage up on people capping and not even be in range. With my Guardian, if I use the terrain I am not damaging. Hence the big discrepancy.

Not to mention I have an AOE blind, Thumper Knockback, Rocket Knockdown, Blind every 10 sec when attacked by a mele, Net on Rifle, Rifle knockback and Net on Crate. So a lot more CC. While these people are CC’d I am not having to mitigate any damage.

Guardian may have slightly more damage reduction and healing, but he is having to mitigate a lot more damage up front.

Is guardian still an effective bunker? Yes. But I would rather roll with a couple Ele’s or Engi’s these days.

Sagat.3285:

^Dreams are strong on this one.

All to true im afraid, it would actually mean a player who uses an engineer in pvp to actually press a few more buttons and take full control of the classes faculties, heaven forbid I know.

Arken.3725:

Just re posting what I had in another thread that got closed. Simple fix for now: Remove Celestial amulet and Might runes.

Lol, no. Celestial isn’t a problem and might stacking runes aren’t that out of proportion compared to others. Sigil of Battle and profession skills like Incendiary Powder are the problem.

Exedore.6320:

Arken.3725:

Just re posting what I had in another thread that got closed. Simple fix for now: Remove Celestial amulet and Might runes.

Lol, no. Celestial isn’t a problem and might stacking runes aren’t that out of proportion compared to others. Sigil of Battle and profession skills like Incendiary Powder are the problem.

Lol, yes. You can’t have the best of both worlds. Both are out of proportion compared to others. Might stacking is really only powerful for a few classes that can actually stack it effectively(Ele, Warrior comes to mind). The same can be said about Celestial(Elementalist comes to mind the most, Engie isn’t far behind).

Edit: Just to reiterate again, Runes/sigils are meant to augment your build, not define it. Might stacking runes do exactly that.

Arken.3725:

Edit: Just to reiterate again, Runes/sigils are meant to augment your build, not define it. Might stacking runes do exactly that.

This is a thread about Engineers. Engineers that play rifle slap on Battle Sigil and Hoelbrak runes to augment their power with 9-10 stacks of might, once it gets going.

Standard Cele Rifle Engi can’t stack a lick of might on its own. The 9 might stacks are marginally better than going like.. Air Sigil and Ogre Runes or something. That’s simply because Engineer does hybrid damage. A thief/mes would benefit more from the Air/Ogre combo. The 9 might stacks get stripped occasionally, by a steal or shatter, and it’s not like the build gets shut down by that.

I don’t think a smart argument can be made as to say that Nade/Elixir S/Toolkit Cele Rifle builds are defined by might stacking just because they can get 9 stacks up, on themselves only, after a 30s ramp up time.

Chaith.8256:

Arken.3725:

Edit: Just to reiterate again, Runes/sigils are meant to augment your build, not define it. Might stacking runes do exactly that.

This is a thread about Engineers. Engineers that play rifle slap on Battle Sigil and Hoelbrak runes to augment their power with 9-10 stacks of might, once it gets going.

Standard Cele Rifle Engi can’t stack a lick of might on its own. The 9 might stacks are marginally better than going like.. Air Sigil and Ogre Runes or something. That’s simply because Engineer does hybrid damage. A thief/mes would benefit more from the Air/Ogre combo. The 9 might stacks get stripped occasionally, by a steal or shatter, and it’s not like the build gets shut down by that.

I don’t think a smart argument can be made as to say that Nade/Elixir S/Toolkit Cele Rifle builds are defined by might stacking just because they can get 9 stacks up, on themselves only, after a 30s ramp up time.

This is a very good point; and one that should be considered regarding Celestial Engineer. Cele Engi’s strength comes from IP procs to deal its hybrid damage and its good CC output. The build itself cannot stack Might strongly in any respect unless using allies Fire Fields. If anything, Celestial Engi as it is in the meta right now with GK, TK, Elixir S is one of the least egregious abusers of Might stacking. If Bombs were in the meta then sure; I could certainly see where Engi can contribute to the problem.

JinDaVikk.7291:

Monmath – Thats an interesting idea except 1 major flaw. If we are cc’d we CANNOT use tool-belts unless they are instant/ stun break. Which defeats your entire idea’s purpose lol. Tbh PI is better balanced than most other professions cc mechanics as RNG ( or guessing) decides when the cooldown is up. There isn’t a way to accurately guess when the cd is gone where PI is always up unless it just proc’d.

Yes, you are absolutely correct in that only very few toolbelts for Engineer are off the GCD or zero cast. My idea was a kittenisation of an older idea I had for Engineer gaining predictive stunbreaks through gaining the Defiance boon (from PvE bosses) on using a toolbelt. Thus by enabling the Engineer to “block” the Control effect of an incoming CC; the place of PI from being a passive CC mitigator instead becomes an active, predictive CC mitigator.

As an example:
Protection Injection (redux)

• Using a Toolbelt skill grants you 1 stack of Defiance (block the next Control effect, but not its damage). ICD 30 seconds. The cooldown for this trait is halved if a Control effect is blocked.

If anything, the places of Stability and Defiance need to be swapped in this game; with Stability granting skills instead giving Defiance in certain numbers of stacks; and vice versa.

Unfortunately there’s no way that Anet would ever contemplate bringing PvE mechanics over to PvP or vice versa even though it would be an elegant solution that faces the vast inequities of Stability access across the 8 professions.

Moving back to another of the OP’s points about Engineer:

Arachnid.4062:

Turret builds: stack boons and kill your opponents for you? The ultimate passive AI experience

Crate: The “I win” button

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQFAUlUUpyq1WxqKseNCdBF6VklQL6j0wR/pAA-TJxHwACuAAn2fYZZAAPAAA

I presume that when the OP talks about the Turret bunker that he is talking about a build like the above; which is one of the tankier, more annoying iterations of the build.

Turrets are problematic in that they destroy soloqueue; and their skill floor vs reward ratio is silly. There’s always going to be that one person that takes it upon themselves to suicide rush the Turret bunker instead of +1 the other 2 points, or to trickle in one by one and eat all the CC in turn. Is the build strong in a competitive game? Probably not; because the abundance of AOE cleave in most competitive team comps is going to devastate the Turret bunker; as would smart rotational play that would turn the Turret bunker into a useless paperweight.

Unfortunately, nothing at this point is going to make Turrets both fun to play as and fun to play against short of a complete re-design. Their current iteration as a long-term immobile summons will always mean that they are forever overtuned, or undertuned. Overtuned because to make them strong enough to stand on their own would make them destroy all 1v1s; and undertuned because to make them provide anything beyond that would let them take over the game; so their effective health will be low; and their applications situational.

There have been numerous threads over the years regarding Turrets in the Engineer forum itself.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/If-it-s-wrong-I-don-t-wanna-be-right/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Turret-Cooldown-idea/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/It-s-time-for-Turret-traits-to-be-reworked/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/PvX-Improving-the-Inventions-line

I suppose a start on evening up the matchup of Turret builds against others is to do the following:

• Make Turrets susceptible to Condition damage
• Make Turrets susceptible to Critical Hits

These two changes alone would pretty much ensure that placing Turrets on point without thought will result in a swift destruction and a wasted cooldown. To compensate; Turrets should be redesigned in a direction mimicking Mesmer Phantasms or Ranger Traps: strong against targets within their range; yet with low, disposable cooldowns. Healing Turret after the redesign is in my mind the perfect example of a Turret; being disposable, having a useful situational utility (healing, cleansing) and yet still fragile .

The main thing that is going to make Turrets fun to play as and against is to take away the Turret autoattacks and put them as a chainskill after placement. Then move the Overcharge to the F1-F4 skills that then chains into Turret Detonate. Thus the 6-6-F1 Healing Turret combo would become 6-F1-F1; and so on.

Putting control of the Turret attacks on the chainskill accomplishes 3 things:

• It gives the Engineer full control over his/her damage/CC
• It gives proper opportunity for misplay; thus raising the skill floor. Engineers running pets should have to micro their pets just as Rangers do.
• It allows Turret attacks to finally be tuned as a skillshot.

The last point is important because it allows the following design:

• Net Turret’s Net Shot can be manually aimed and led (and missed)
• Rocket Turret’s Rockets to be aimed as GTAoE attacks
  and so on, and so forth

The main thing is to take away the summon autoattack phenomenon such that the skill floor is raised.

As for Supply Crate; the skill itself just needs Turrets to persist only for ~30 seconds. In addition, the skill itself should not be able to be stow-cancelled so late. It’s possible to make the crate appear to hit the ground before the cancel; thus forcing out a dodge for a paltry “interrupted” cooldown. Failing that, make Crate unable to be stow-cancelled; thus Engineers dropping it must commit to the Crate play.

As for this idea:

Poledra Val.1490:

What would amuse me no end is if Anet changed the Supply Crate elite skill and leaned it towards the actual “player” to micro manage each and every one of those little turrets that they just love to use.

It would increase the learning curve of an engineer by a country mile and in all honesty and it would give players who use the engineer much more recognition rather then “one button does it all” lazy automatons.

I think it would make the skill OP; actually. Supply crate is balanced in an XvX precisely because the Engineer has no control over who gets the Net Turret Immobilise or the Flame Turret Burn. Letting the Engineer control that with a chainskill would be absurd. It would basically make every 2v2 team run Supply Crate, drop it, call target, and burst. Targeted Immobilises in this game are no joke.

Relentliss.2170:

JinDaVikk.7291:

^^ what you just said makes ur post worthless.

Bunker guardian can survive far longer in every situation than engi.

lol GG

No way. I stall 2-3 people for a good minute or two with my Engi. I run out of abilities and die quicker on my Guardian. And I have a lot more games on my Guardian 1000 vs 200.

Look at it this way. From my healing turret alone I can get a 4 sec reflective shield every 15 sec… just from that one turret. That is a lot of ranged damage I am not even taking. I have 3 other turrets and crates that also give the shield.

I can drop Turrets then run behind obstacles. I can keep damage up on people capping and not even be in range. With my Guardian, if I use the terrain I am not damaging. Hence the big discrepancy.

Not to mention I have an AOE blind, Thumper Knockback, Rocket Knockdown, Blind every 10 sec when attacked by a mele, Net on Rifle, Rifle knockback and Net on Crate. So a lot more CC. While these people are CC’d I am not having to mitigate any damage.

Guardian may have slightly more damage reduction and healing, but he is having to mitigate a lot more damage up front.

Is guardian still an effective bunker? Yes. But I would rather roll with a couple Ele’s or Engi’s these days.

I think it needs to be said that Bunker Guardian was never the most survivable Bunker class and indeed, many classes like Warrior and Engineer and the BM Rangers of 2013 could camp a point like no other.

What Turret Bunkers, and Banner Warrior bunkers, and BM or Regen Rangers don’t have besides their point-holding capability is Team Support; and the ultimate in down state control. No class can secure stomps or resses quite like Guardian; nor can any class claim to team-cleanse like Guardian. Is Bunker Guardian survivable? Absolutely. But it’s team based survival; not selfish survivability. A bunker Guard will die eventually in a 1vX – because its design was never to hold a 1vX forever. Instead the best use of a Bunker Guard is to make it follow the teamfight around; rotating with the help of Portal or AoE Swiftness; thus keeping the team up and the enemy stomped. But this is all off-topic.

Supply Crate = the GW Signet of Spirits (pve-split) on steriods.

Funny how pve versions of GW skills made it to pvp on GW2. That alone speaks volumes imo. Given all the low/zero cast times, the turret engi basicaly boils down to the pve version of spirit pooping in GW.

I am actually starting to enjoy this thread.

Chaith.8256:

sinject.4607:

make grenades have a “danger close” zone where if thrown too closely to the engineer they self-inflict conditions or damage to both the engineer and their turrets. or just make it so they can’t throw nades within their immediate area and then make nades travel 33% faster. otherwise, nades get to act as both nades and bombs while being even better at doing what bombkit is supposed to do thanks to their instant fuse at short range and they give 3 chances at minimum to proc IP

Hahaha. Simply put, friendly fire is just a path that leads nowhere positive for the game.

Also, instant fuse at short range for bombs? Bombs are ridiculously slow and avoidable – I’d go so far as to say they’re only usable on immobilized, point-committed, and downed bodies. Counter-pressuring a mobile Thief or Mesmer, for example, with bombs, I would go so far as to say that this is extremely rare. Unless they deem it ‘worth’ and eat some ticks of a fire bomb for a good reason, of course.

Yes, grenades are too good, compared to bombs. It has that snap 1v1 counter-pressure, where the Engineer really has little access to that, otherwise. Thats why in PvP, Grenade-less builds don’t really happen.

I’d love to use Bombs instead of Grenades, for a change. Maybe change Autodefense Bomb Dispenser trait to remove the fuse time of bombs (not the casting time, and not Big Ol’ Bomb). That would mean it would be unable to be used with grenades in the same build.

I’d totally run this build, then!

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQFAUlUUpPrtbxkLseNCbBNyx8GRuxq85GEglC-TJRHwAFeAAAuAAk2f4YZAA

removing the fuse on bombs would make it quite hard to reliably dodge them tbh not a good idea— we dont need more things like necro marks :P even if it would be melee

Reevz.2617:

Chaith.8256:

sinject.4607:

make grenades have a “danger close” zone where if thrown too closely to the engineer they self-inflict conditions or damage to both the engineer and their turrets. or just make it so they can’t throw nades within their immediate area and then make nades travel 33% faster. otherwise, nades get to act as both nades and bombs while being even better at doing what bombkit is supposed to do thanks to their instant fuse at short range and they give 3 chances at minimum to proc IP

Hahaha. Simply put, friendly fire is just a path that leads nowhere positive for the game.

Also, instant fuse at short range for bombs? Bombs are ridiculously slow and avoidable – I’d go so far as to say they’re only usable on immobilized, point-committed, and downed bodies. Counter-pressuring a mobile Thief or Mesmer, for example, with bombs, I would go so far as to say that this is extremely rare. Unless they deem it ‘worth’ and eat some ticks of a fire bomb for a good reason, of course.

Yes, grenades are too good, compared to bombs. It has that snap 1v1 counter-pressure, where the Engineer really has little access to that, otherwise. Thats why in PvP, Grenade-less builds don’t really happen.

I’d love to use Bombs instead of Grenades, for a change. Maybe change Autodefense Bomb Dispenser trait to remove the fuse time of bombs (not the casting time, and not Big Ol’ Bomb). That would mean it would be unable to be used with grenades in the same build.

I’d totally run this build, then!

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQFAUlUUpPrtbxkLseNCbBNyx8GRuxq85GEglC-TJRHwAFeAAAuAAk2f4YZAA

removing the fuse on bombs would make it quite hard to reliably dodge them tbh not a good idea— we dont need more things like necro marks :P even if it would be melee

Well, it would be exactly how Grenades are right now. .5s Cast emote in melee, but yeah, I see what you’re saying. If instant Melee bombs are toxic, instant Melee grenades are too, then, by logic.

Grenades and Bombs both have counterplay and are well designed. If you have a problem with them, go make your own thread about it. That’s not the purpose of this one.

Arachnid.4062:

Grenades and Bombs both have counterplay and are well designed. If you have a problem with them, go make your own thread about it. That’s not the purpose of this one.

Your thread is a vague rant. Open discussion, imo

Chaith.8256:

Arachnid.4062:

Grenades and Bombs both have counterplay and are well designed. If you have a problem with them, go make your own thread about it. That’s not the purpose of this one.

Your thread is a vague rant. Open discussion, imo

If you can’t tell why I listed the things that I did in my original post, is that my problem? Go ahead and call my thread a vague rant if it makes you happy.

The brain dead cheese is definitely strong on engis, but I think one of the major culprits is how hilariously low all of the cooldowns are for almost every single engi skill. You could increase every cooldown by 30% and it would still be JUST pushing balanced, because of all of the “recharge your entire kittening class at 25%” traits baked into basically every build. The class is just elementalist with better traits, way more passive play, customizable attunements that instead of having cooldowns to manage give you a bonus skill, and half the cooldowns on every other ability. It’s insane that anyone thinks that’s well designed and balanced.

I think people just need some orange mocha frappuccinos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQew6ZDeAdg

With regards to weakening the turret build, I think the best answer is:

• Significantly reduce the damage potential of incendiary powder and make it an Adept trait again. Tweak other skills to make up for the damage loss from IP but make sure there is more counter-play than there currently is.
• Accelerant-Packed Turrets moves back to a Master level trait. That way you can’t have damage and knockback on turret death, increased turret damage or shields, and boons from turrets all in the same build. Then the toxic turret build loses either the ability to push people off points easily, a chunk of its passive damage or defense against ranged, or sustain for the engineer himself.

MonMalthias.4763:

Moving back to another of the OP’s points about Engineer:

Arachnid.4062:

Turret builds: stack boons and kill your opponents for you? The ultimate passive AI experience

Crate: The “I win” button

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQFAUlUUpyq1WxqKseNCdBF6VklQL6j0wR/pAA-TJxHwACuAAn2fYZZAAPAAA

I presume that when the OP talks about the Turret bunker that he is talking about a build like the above; which is one of the tankier, more annoying iterations of the build.

Turrets are problematic in that they destroy soloqueue; and their skill floor vs reward ratio is silly. There’s always going to be that one person that takes it upon themselves to suicide rush the Turret bunker instead of +1 the other 2 points, or to trickle in one by one and eat all the CC in turn. Is the build strong in a competitive game? Probably not; because the abundance of AOE cleave in most competitive team comps is going to devastate the Turret bunker; as would smart rotational play that would turn the Turret bunker into a useless paperweight.

Unfortunately, nothing at this point is going to make Turrets both fun to play as and fun to play against short of a complete re-design. Their current iteration as a long-term immobile summons will always mean that they are forever overtuned, or undertuned. Overtuned because to make them strong enough to stand on their own would make them destroy all 1v1s; and undertuned because to make them provide anything beyond that would let them take over the game; so their effective health will be low; and their applications situational.

There have been numerous threads over the years regarding Turrets in the Engineer forum itself.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/If-it-s-wrong-I-don-t-wanna-be-right/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Turret-Cooldown-idea/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/It-s-time-for-Turret-traits-to-be-reworked/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/PvX-Improving-the-Inventions-line

I suppose a start on evening up the matchup of Turret builds against others is to do the following:

• Make Turrets susceptible to Condition damage
• Make Turrets susceptible to Critical Hits

These two changes alone would pretty much ensure that placing Turrets on point without thought will result in a swift destruction and a wasted cooldown. To compensate; Turrets should be redesigned in a direction mimicking Mesmer Phantasms or Ranger Traps: strong against targets within their range; yet with low, disposable cooldowns. Healing Turret after the redesign is in my mind the perfect example of a Turret; being disposable, having a useful situational utility (healing, cleansing) and yet still fragile .

The main thing that is going to make Turrets fun to play as and against is to take away the Turret autoattacks and put them as a chainskill after placement. Then move the Overcharge to the F1-F4 skills that then chains into Turret Detonate. Thus the 6-6-F1 Healing Turret combo would become 6-F1-F1; and so on.

Putting control of the Turret attacks on the chainskill accomplishes 3 things:

• It gives the Engineer full control over his/her damage/CC
• It gives proper opportunity for misplay; thus raising the skill floor. Engineers running pets should have to micro their pets just as Rangers do.
• It allows Turret attacks to finally be tuned as a skillshot.

The last point is important because it allows the following design:

• Net Turret’s Net Shot can be manually aimed and led (and missed)
• Rocket Turret’s Rockets to be aimed as GTAoE attacks
  and so on, and so forth

The main thing is to take away the summon autoattack phenomenon such that the skill floor is raised.

You should apply for a Game Balance position at Anet. This is the mindset Anet should have. Not: “yeah we tought this and that needed a buff, so we gave it a passive OP buff to close the gap between skilled players and zombies”

Poledra Val.1490:

What would amuse me no end is if Anet changed the Supply Crate elite skill and leaned it towards the actual “player” to micro manage each and every one of those little turrets that they just love to use.

It would increase the learning curve of an engineer by a country mile and in all honesty and it would give players who use the engineer much more recognition rather then “one button does it all” lazy automatons.

If this was a thing I would -adore- it.

The engineers with talent would be strikingly obvious.

Chaith.8256:

Reevz.2617:

Chaith.8256:

sinject.4607:

make grenades have a “danger close” zone where if thrown too closely to the engineer they self-inflict conditions or damage to both the engineer and their turrets. or just make it so they can’t throw nades within their immediate area and then make nades travel 33% faster. otherwise, nades get to act as both nades and bombs while being even better at doing what bombkit is supposed to do thanks to their instant fuse at short range and they give 3 chances at minimum to proc IP

Hahaha. Simply put, friendly fire is just a path that leads nowhere positive for the game.

Also, instant fuse at short range for bombs? Bombs are ridiculously slow and avoidable – I’d go so far as to say they’re only usable on immobilized, point-committed, and downed bodies. Counter-pressuring a mobile Thief or Mesmer, for example, with bombs, I would go so far as to say that this is extremely rare. Unless they deem it ‘worth’ and eat some ticks of a fire bomb for a good reason, of course.

Yes, grenades are too good, compared to bombs. It has that snap 1v1 counter-pressure, where the Engineer really has little access to that, otherwise. Thats why in PvP, Grenade-less builds don’t really happen.

I’d love to use Bombs instead of Grenades, for a change. Maybe change Autodefense Bomb Dispenser trait to remove the fuse time of bombs (not the casting time, and not Big Ol’ Bomb). That would mean it would be unable to be used with grenades in the same build.

I’d totally run this build, then!

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQFAUlUUpPrtbxkLseNCbBNyx8GRuxq85GEglC-TJRHwAFeAAAuAAk2f4YZAA

removing the fuse on bombs would make it quite hard to reliably dodge them tbh not a good idea— we dont need more things like necro marks :P even if it would be melee

Well, it would be exactly how Grenades are right now. .5s Cast emote in melee, but yeah, I see what you’re saying. If instant Melee bombs are toxic, instant Melee grenades are too, then, by logic.

pretty much right, though there should be more risk/reward for getting in close with a ranged weapon set i guess? theres just too much in this game that is “toxic” :P

Chapell.1346:

engineer is such a masterpiece

Will quote my self and apologize, did read the 3rd and 4th page
i like the proposal, it makes engineer more active play than passive, especially the IP visual animation changed is a must.
you know to differentiate which one has the passive trait effect and vice versa.

turret engi is the most skillfull build in the game

Hate the whole amulet thing anyway. Wish they’d just give everyone an equal chunk of stat points to assign how they saw fit.

The funny thing is … All the engineers in here that are defending engi all have the same excuse to why engi is not OP. IF ANYTHING GETS FOCUSED BY 2 OR MORE PLAYERS IT’S GONNA DIE. Why don’t you guys get this (chaith…) The only thing that truly stops a focus fire is invuln….wait…. (elixir s) but but but wat if the engi is caught out of position THEY GOT NO TELEPORTS TO RESET THEIR POSITION QQ… um stealth just does the same amount reset as teleports. Also the meta of engi involves nades which can be thrown at 1500 range! If your out of position in the first place it’s cause if player skill issue.

To be fair if you spam grenades at 1500 range, you are doing almost nothing. I’ve seen quite a few engis stand on some ledge happily throwing grenades on a point while the enemy team was just as happily winning the team fight and capping then keeping the point.

And yes, you have to focus the engineer down just like you have to focus a necro or it’ll turn the team fight into a graveyard.

kolompi.1287:

To be fair if you spam grenades at 1500 range, you are doing almost nothing. I’ve seen quite a few engis stand on some ledge happily throwing grenades on a point while the enemy team was just as happily winning the team fight and capping then keeping the point.

And yes, you have to focus the engineer down just like you have to focus a necro or it’ll turn the team fight into a graveyard.

Yes engis don’t bring alot to a 4v4 giant team fight at mid. Their strength is side nodes. If you get caught out of position in the giant mid fight it’s cause the class or spec is not as useful or viable in that scenario. This aspect applies to alot of other op classes or specs aswell.

The best thing an engi can do in a 4v4 is to pop nades into the fight, wait for your target to get locked down by your teammates, then run in with the condi burst. You can’t get locked down by a necro if you locked down the necro first

Btw I’m writing all this on a phone. So excuse the mistakes.

masskillerxploit.2165:

The funny thing is … All the engineers in here that are defending engi all have the same excuse to why engi is not OP. IF ANYTHING GETS FOCUSED BY 2 OR MORE PLAYERS IT’S GONNA DIE. Why don’t you guys get this (chaith…) The only thing that truly stops a focus fire is invuln….wait…. (elixir s) but but but wat if the engi is caught out of position THEY GOT NO TELEPORTS TO RESET THEIR POSITION QQ… um stealth just does the same amount reset as teleports. Also the meta of engi involves nades which can be thrown at 1500 range! If your out of position in the first place it’s cause if player skill issue.

Your signature made me lol: ‘Ferox, Experienced sPvP Player!’. That’s kind of suspicious, like: Walter White’s Car Wash, definitely not a front for a meth money laundering operation!’

When an Engi is being ganked properly by a Thief/Necro or Engi/Necro, there is nothing he can do to survive. It’s probably the fastest 2v1 in the game, is what my point is. There is enough interrupts to chain fear/daze/knockdown the Engineer to death in record time, and Elixir S is incapable of stopping the gank, merely delay it by 3 seconds.

Ask Caed, Backpack, or Nos. Their business in tPvP is pretty much hunting opportunities to overwhelm Engies in 5 seconds, and snowball the map. That strategy really just isn’t viable against professions who, when they use all their defensive cooldowns, you can be certain they arent’ going to still splat in under 10 seconds.

My point is not that ‘engi dies when outnumbered (like everything else, omg!).’ It’s that none of the Engineer’s tools are highly successful get out of jail cards. When focus fired in the above mentioned scenario, there’s usually not even the chance to get the Toss Elixir S stealth off – it’s .5s cast is prevented by the chain interrupts, and magnet counters the gear shield handily.

kolompi.1287:

To be fair if you spam grenades at 1500 range, you are doing almost nothing. I’ve seen quite a few engis stand on some ledge happily throwing grenades on a point while the enemy team was just as happily winning the team fight and capping then keeping the point.

And yes, you have to focus the engineer down just like you have to focus a necro or it’ll turn the team fight into a graveyard.

Also you don’t need to b 1500 range away to be put out of range of focus from the enemy.

masskillerxploit.2165:

The best thing an engi can do in a 4v4 is to pop nades into the fight, wait for your target to get locked down by your teammates, then run in with the condi burst. You can’t get locked down by a necro if you locked down the necro first

Btw I’m writing all this on a phone. So excuse the mistakes.

Lol, you think Necros commonly 4v4, and that Engineers can fight effectively from 1500 range.

masskillerxploit.2165

The funny thing is … All the engineers in here that are defending engi all have the same excuse to why engi is not OP. IF ANYTHING GETS FOCUSED BY 2 OR MORE PLAYERS IT’S GONNA DIE. Why don’t you guys get this (chaith…) The only thing that truly stops a focus fire is invuln….wait…. (elixir s) but but but wat if the engi is caught out of position THEY GOT NO TELEPORTS TO RESET THEIR POSITION QQ… um stealth just does the same amount reset as teleports. Also the meta of engi involves nades which can be thrown at 1500 range! If your out of position in the first place it’s cause if player skill issue.

Never go full kitten, kids.

So I wrote up a full respectable response to chaith’s response to me, explaining it all boils down to manipulating the rotations of your enemy, but the wifi in my phone failed me and timed me out, thus losing the whole response. So I’m just going to leave this with a last statement: this is just another QQ thread from both sides (against and for). I can’t say I wouldn’t do this if mesmer was the topic (i feel for chaith) about defending my class even if it leads to BM or trolling.

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. Do I think Engi is over the top? Currently yes. That said, I think most of the issues are with celestial amulet. That is what needs the nerf. It would also help resolve the issue with eles.

The only engi spec that I’d purposely nerf is turret engi. It is just does too well against “uncoordinated” teams. Unfortunately that is true for all hot join, all solo queue, and over 85% of team queue. Remember, most team queue is just pug vs pug until you get to the top levels.

chaiths argument: I’m easier to focus than eles!
ok…
and who’s easier to focus?
necros..
thieves…
mesmers…
medi guard (maybe even bunker guard depending on cd situation)
oh woe is engis that theyre the worst of the 4 viable classes now ;( qq

Welp, this thread is going downhill again. But to address a previous point:

Reevz.2617:

Chaith.8256:

Reevz.2617:

Chaith.8256:

sinject.4607:

make grenades have a “danger close” zone where if thrown too closely to the engineer they self-inflict conditions*snip*

snip

Yes, grenades are too good, compared to bombs. It has that snap 1v1 counter-pressure, where the Engineer really has little access to that, otherwise. Thats why in PvP, Grenade-less builds don’t really happen.

I’d love to use Bombs instead of Grenades, for a change. Maybe change Autodefense Bomb Dispenser trait to remove the fuse time of bombs (not the casting time, and not Big Ol’ Bomb). That would mean it would be unable to be used with grenades in the same build.

I’d totally run this build, then!

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQFAUlUUpPrtbxkLseNCbBNyx8GRuxq85GEglC-TJRHwAFeAAAuAAk2f4YZAA

removing the fuse on bombs would make it quite hard to reliably dodge them tbh not a good idea— we dont need more things like necro marks :P even if it would be melee

Well, it would be exactly how Grenades are right now. .5s Cast emote in melee, but yeah, I see what you’re saying. If instant Melee bombs are toxic, instant Melee grenades are too, then, by logic.

pretty much right, though there should be more risk/reward for getting in close with a ranged weapon set i guess? theres just too much in this game that is “toxic” :P

At some point, I do have to wonder whether it might have been better to make Grenades not have impact detonation, and Bombs some kind of Proximity mechanic that made them detonate when an opponent ran over them.

On the other hand, Bombs are really poorly cued compared to Grenades. GK’s skills are visually distinct down to the autoattack; whereas Bombs are a lot more ambiguous. Only the AOE radii truly distinguishes say, Glue bomb from the rest. Concussion bomb is even smaller than the autoattack bomb. That’s just silly. Dropping bombs at the feet as well; although useful for an anti-melee kiting kit that BK seems to be designed for; is also pretty toxic in that you have no idea what Bomb is dropped; especially against Asura or Charr with long coats.

This is why I do think that it might be a good idea to make Bombs be tossed out in front of the Engineer by say, 180 or so units. That way you can set up proximity detonations. The human eye is also drawn to movement; so having a moving object, colour coded for visual cueing, would be a lot better counterplay-wise compared to the current BK attacks.

In this way you can have your cake and eat it too.

• You can now aim bombs to go off immediately by aiming your character at the enemy. Bombs are thrown at enemy’s feet, go off after ~3/4 total cast time + travel time. Like any other strong melee attack, really.
  • If you miss, you suffer the full 1 second delay before detonation. Fair’s fair, given the sheer radius and condition spreading power of Bombs.

That said, Power Bombs or even hybrid Bombs is going to be really hard to pull off. Total coefficients for Power of BK are as given (RIP Steady weapon testing):

• BK 1: 1.25
• BK 2: 0.2 but ticks 4 times (0.8 total over 3 total seconds)
• BK 3: 0.4 (due to 5 confusion stacks)
• BK 4: 0
• BK 5: 0
• Toolbelt BK: 1.7
  • This is a total of 4.15 assuming best case scenario.
  • Grenade Kit traited with Grenadier in comparison is total 7.14 (0.33×3 + 0.55×3 + 0×3 (Flash Grenade) + 0.5×3 + 0×3 (Poison Grenade deals no direct damage) + 0.375×8) although realistically one should only expect around 2/3rds of that due to scatter.

Clearly Grenade Kit is the better hybrid kit. Bomb Kit’s coefficients are going to have to be shifted away from BK1; into Fire bomb and Concussion bomb. Perhaps even Glue Bomb.

I would gladly take a Path of Exile-style Concentrated Effect type trait that boosts the power coefficients of BK extensively whilst reducing its AOE radius, Burning and Confusion output. Maybe it could replace Autodefense Bomb Dispenser. But BK has a lot of changes – perhaps too much to contemplate – before it can even begin to move away from its point-dominating, point-spamming role.

MonMalthias.4763:

At some point, I do have to wonder whether it might have been better to make Grenades not have impact detonation, and Bombs some kind of Proximity mechanic that made them detonate when an opponent ran over them.

On the other hand, Bombs are really poorly cued compared to Grenades. GK’s skills are visually distinct down to the autoattack; whereas Bombs are a lot more ambiguous. Only the AOE radii truly distinguishes say, Glue bomb from the rest. Concussion bomb is even smaller than the autoattack bomb. That’s just silly. Dropping bombs at the feet as well; although useful for an anti-melee kiting kit that BK seems to be designed for; is also pretty toxic in that you have no idea what Bomb is dropped; especially against Asura or Charr with long coats.

This is why I do think that it might be a good idea to make Bombs be tossed out in front of the Engineer by say, 180 or so units. That way you can set up proximity detonations. The human eye is also drawn to movement; so having a moving object, colour coded for visual cueing, would be a lot better counterplay-wise compared to the current BK attacks.

In this way you can have your cake and eat it too.

• You can now aim bombs to go off immediately by aiming your character at the enemy. Bombs are thrown at enemy’s feet, go off after ~3/4 total cast time + travel time. Like any other strong melee attack, really.
  • If you miss, you suffer the full 1 second delay before detonation. Fair’s fair, given the sheer radius and condition spreading power of Bombs.

That said, Power Bombs or even hybrid Bombs is going to be really hard to pull off. Total coefficients for Power of BK are as given (RIP Steady weapon testing):

• BK 1: 1.25
• BK 2: 0.2 but ticks 4 times (0.8 total over 3 total seconds)
• BK 3: 0.4 (due to 5 confusion stacks)
• BK 4: 0
• BK 5: 0
• Toolbelt BK: 1.7
  • This is a total of 4.15 assuming best case scenario.
  • Grenade Kit traited with Grenadier in comparison is total 7.14 (0.33×3 + 0.55×3 + 0×3 (Flash Grenade) + 0.5×3 + 0×3 (Poison Grenade deals no direct damage) + 0.375×8) although realistically one should only expect around 2/3rds of that due to scatter.

Clearly Grenade Kit is the better hybrid kit. Bomb Kit’s coefficients are going to have to be shifted away from BK1; into Fire bomb and Concussion bomb. Perhaps even Glue Bomb.

I would gladly take a Path of Exile-style Concentrated Effect type trait that boosts the power coefficients of BK extensively whilst reducing its AOE radius, Burning and Confusion output. Maybe it could replace Autodefense Bomb Dispenser. But BK has a lot of changes – perhaps too much to contemplate – before it can even begin to move away from its point-dominating, point-spamming role.

You produce a lot of really good ideas and much more interesting mechanics than the status quo.. I just fear it’s all for nothing.

I would love if there were ways to specialize/invest Bombs into main DPS hybrid or power kit.

I would also love it if there were ways to convert Firearms into main DPS sources, too.

I’m tired of everything playing second fiddle to grenades, in PvP. Unfortunately, no other setup has enough pressure to follow through, no matter how offensively you build.

As soon as I saw the FT buffs chaithH I was so happy! Then I remembered my
a: complete lack of range
b: my lack of condi removal to fight at small range
c: complete change in build would lose my toolkit anyways ( I wanted FT BK EG)
d: cannot 1v1 nade engi.

Sad fact nades will be forced on engis until they are nerfed. I hate grenades personally big fan of FT and Bk.

12 stealth, is soooo kitten fun. Also 25 perma might 2. 6k flame thrower 2. lololol

NOT VIABLE BECUZ NADES RAWR GRRRR

edit:

again I must say it again,
Few meta specs today have a severe weakness that can be used at top play. Engis are weak to conditions and have no teleport. lol.

Also runes/sigils/cele ammy are the MAIN culprit in the meta. YES we are strong YES we have dumb mechanics but name 1 profession that DOESN’T. We are not the strongest nor the most represented at top tier.

I honestly can’t understand why you trolls keep complaining. Its just dumb.

Celestial engi is almost 100% fine. I believe that one of the only problems is that tool kit block lasts too long and has a too short cd. Or give a dmg coefficient based on distance for grenade dmg, something like ranger bow or mesmer GS.

moi.4398:

Engi are fine . Celestial is not . Turrets only kill dumb peoples . IP needs to be reworked , not nerfed .

Personally I kind of feel this sums it up. With the exception of the celestial portion. In that aspect, you do not know what your talking about.

Celestial without might stacking isn’t overpowered, see necromancer, ranger, guardian for reference.

Arachnid.4062:

Celestial without might stacking isn’t overpowered, see necromancer, ranger, guardian for reference.

You’re misguided.

Celestial without simultaneous, viable power damage AND condition application, AND multiple healing sources (to scale quickly from) isn’t overpowered.

Nade Engi and D/D Ele are the only ones who really have all those 3. That’s why Cele Necro, Ranger, and Guardian are incomplete. Don’t point the finger at might. Or Celestial, or a combination of the 2.

Cele Engi, for example, slaps on a battle sigil as the only source of might, and is hella good. Any profession can do that, and stack the same might. Your argument falls flat on it’s face.

The separate argument that Ele might have too much access to might is a viable one, though.

Similarly to how the argument that Engi might have too much access to condi application.

There is a reason most people say the combat was better at launch then now.

• CUT****
  Make Turrets susceptible to Condition damage
  Make Turrets susceptible to Critical Hits
  **************************************************************************
  these are perfect examples.

The only thing that is comical is the overwhelming amount of buthurt in this thread.

If you are having trouble beating a class in pvp, why don’t you actually run the build to find out what the counters/weaknesses are?

When I first started playing pvp I had a lot of problems…
I had trouble fighting against thieves till i played one in spvp.
I had trouble beating PU mesmers till i played one in spvp.
I had trouble beating turret engi till I played one in spvp.
I had trouble against terrormancers till I played one in spvp.
etc.

Learn the strengths and weaknesses of a build.
…and know when you are NOT going to win a fight.

What many of you fail to realize is that…
You will NOT always be able to win in a 1v1 based on skill alone

Some people are just running your perfect counter.

That being said, if we are dishing out trash talk to classes that don’t deserve them…. lets focus on the one thing that is OP (imo) at the moment vs all classes— Power Ranger Longbow.
Nothing like fighting someone for a point and suddenly having a back full of arrows from 1300 range.
You have already absorbed all the damage before you even realize a ranger has decided to join the skirmish.

It is cheap, skill-less, and outright abused in spvp atm.

I dare you to disagree.

Chaith.8256:

MonMalthias.4763:

snip of own post

snip
I would also love it if there were ways to convert Firearms into main DPS sources, too.

I’m tired of everything playing second fiddle to grenades, in PvP. Unfortunately, no other setup has enough pressure to follow through, no matter how offensively you build.

Meh, I’ve been running 100mines and whilst it’s a hotjoin/soloque stomp build it definitely has the pressure to follow through. And by pressure I mean 100-0.

In my opinion Throw Mine and Mine Field’s power coefficients might have been better served on Bomb Kit. Throw Mine in particular is closer to what I envision some of BK’s skills to be. Not in terms of being a GTAoE; but in terms of its ability to still pressure an area with damage without being toxic because you can’t spam with it and spread 5 Confusion, 8 seconds of Burning and Cripple/Immobilise/Blind. It’s exactly the kind of zone control that Engineer was billed to be good at.

Having a short-range “skillshot” for Bomb Kit skills would give the kit a lot better counterplay. Indeed, if this was the case in the first place then the senseless 60 unit radius buff wouldn’t have been necessary back in 2013. As it is now, BK is entirely mindless in the context of Conquest; useless in high mobility contexts like WvW; and appreciated for its autoattack in PvE (thus mindless).

As for Firearms into main damage sources, Air/Fire Sigil and a Zerker build already does that for you. Not a satisfying answer, I know, because Air/Fire is overtuned, but it’s there. You don’t even need Incendiary Powder in that case; because Sigil procs give you that sustained damage from autoattacks that would otherwise be too dependent on crits to deal appreciable pressure.

The Firearms tree just needs to move away from Crit procs and more into reliable damage.

• Sharpshooter should simply be, _Critical Hits on foes within 600 range inflict 3 seconds of Bleeding. Thus Engineer gets a nice boost to its mid-range. May require renaming to something like Frangible Ammunition.
  • Target the Maimed should move from GM Minor to Master Minor. Either that, or buff it to 10% like Warrior’s Attack of Opportunity. Alternatively, make Master Minor trait grant 10% bonus Critical chance against Bleeding Targets. Thus, Synergy. 10% Crit chance against targets below 50% HP is pretty weak for an Execution trait; whereas traits like Bolt to the Heart and the eponymous Executioner are obviously appreciated.
  • Making Target the Maimed GM Minor to Master Minor allows Modified Ammunition to move from GM to GM Minor; thus mirroring Necromancer’s Target the Weak. GM Traits shouldn’t be passive DPS boosts.

A better Modified Ammunition would be to make it a real trait that boosts Mainhand skills; like adding a skill chain to the 2 skill on Net Shot that acts as a secondary gap closer; and on the Pistol, chaining the Volley into a skill like Choking Gas. Adding skill chains on skills 2-3 increases the utility of the weapons just as it has done for offhand Shield for Engineer; something that is sorely needed on a class that can potentially lack a weapon swap. Not running kits locks the class out of Swap Sigils, animation cancels and 5 skills. That’s a lot of opportunity cost; and drives down build variety. Triple or Quad Gadget builds are extremely difficult to pull off because of this very reason.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

The only thing that is comical is the overwhelming amount of buthurt in this thread.

If you are having trouble beating a class in pvp, why don’t you actually run the build to find out what the counters/weaknesses are?

When I first started playing pvp I had a lot of problems…
I had trouble fighting against thieves till i played one in spvp.
I had trouble beating PU mesmers till i played one in spvp.
I had trouble beating turret engi till I played one in spvp.
I had trouble against terrormancers till I played one in spvp.
etc.

Learn the strengths and weaknesses of a build.
…and know when you are NOT going to win a fight.

What many of you fail to realize is that…
You will NOT always be able to win in a 1v1 based on skill alone

Some people are just running your perfect counter.

Yes I agree you can not always win plus I wanna add one thing if you wanna beat turret engineer as a thief run D/P with full Berserker
1.Stay close
2.Stay closer and If you want drop a Smoke Screen inside turrets somewhere
3.Stay close to engineer

overall turret emg is fine but there’s some portion that need balance.
for e.g. in map like spirit garden. A eng can just summon turret to guard orb afterwhich he can leave the turret there going to help cap pt. its seriously annoying at least deactivate the turret when the eng is far away from the turret

princode.2750:

overall turret emg is fine but there’s some portion that need balance.
for e.g. in map like spirit garden. A eng can just summon turret to guard orb afterwhich he can leave the turret there going to help cap pt. its seriously annoying at least deactivate the turret when the eng is far away from the turret

If an engineer is traited for turrets he will be next to useless if he is not near them.

He will be doing practically no damage, and at most will be able to lend a hand with an occasional knockback.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

It is cheap, skill-less, and outright abused in spvp atm.

I dare you to disagree.

If I had a cookie for every time I’ve heard how ganking other players is cheap and skill-less and abused, I’d be very fat because I love cookies.

It’s the dota equivalent of, “Mid is missing from his lane? Hurpa Durp, better push the lane.”

Learn to position yourself better.

Chicago Jack.5647:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

It is cheap, skill-less, and outright abused in spvp atm.

I dare you to disagree.

If I had a cookie for every time I’ve heard how ganking other players is cheap and skill-less and abused, I’d be very fat because I love cookies.

It’s the dota equivalent of, “Mid is missing from his lane? Hurpa Durp, better push the lane.”

Learn to position yourself better.

Nobody is talking about Dota, ganking, or cookies.

Ganking is fine as long as –
A) Its not done from 1300 range
B) You know a second foe has engaged and have at least split second to react.

“Positioning” doesn’t get much better than fighting on point, while watching possible paths from which additional foes may approach. But even the most vigilant pvper will not see every 1300 range attack coming. You can’t watch your back 100% of the time or else you will not be watching your foe.