(edited by brannigan.9831)
No MMR Hell? Prove it and WIN
Update the OP with a challenge 3: That hopefully will help the people who like to approach things like this from the simulation side:
Challenge 3 (Win Both Shinies and a bonus Shiny): Create a simulation (sim1) using the available information for this season, create a simulation (sim2) using purely GLICKO for matchmaking. Run both. Find that sim1 produces MMR for players with at most twice the error generated by sim2. Feel free to use any statistically valid method for calculating error
And guys, please lay off the picking on each other, there’s no point.
And for the MMR hell discussion… I posit and show why I think it is true that a player with skill 50% but MMR 5% will still lose MORE than 75%-80% of his matches and the minimum MMR penalty for that substantial of a loss rate will outweigh any MMR gained.
There are many points where I think the system breaks down, I just picked a few that I thought were easiest to handle.
And guys, please lay off the picking on each other, it contributes nothing to the discussion.
Also I’m not terribly affected by this, it’s easy to exploit, I have all the achievements but one for the backpack and I prefer playing in unranked even with the terrible maps because I get closer games which I find more fun so lay off with that line please
(edited by Tenebria.7239)
Give me an account that is in “MMR hell”, and I will be happy to stream how the games go and prove it is a result of your own lack of skill.
Other than that, there is no “mathematical” argument anybody can make since we cant prove our own MMR.
Of course higher skill takes you out of it. I just feel like you’re missing the point. You shouldn’t need that higher skill if the system was accurate and fair.
Andddd there it is. The ladder system isn’t “fair” because it rewards people with higher skill.
At least someone finally said it. It has nothing to do with matchmaking, and everything to do with people wanting to be rewarded for their own incompetence. Because its “fair”. GG.
The thread isn’t even about it, or skill, it’s about being stuck in elo/ruby hell what ever you call it and if you are even 50 % (skill level) of the ruby devision you won’t be able to climb since you are at the buttom, which will require way more “actual” skill then it would in fair circumstances.
Well, only time i had lose streaks was when i played on classes that im not that great at. My longest being 9 lose streak, on a class i have 48% win rate on. Long ago when i played ranked more seriously on another class i had roughly 50% win rate. I stopped ranked for about a year and played other classes more casually and somehow i ended up learning another class way better than the other ones which i now have 54% win rate on. Thats also the class i flew all the way to diamond with, basically ONLY win streaks, but my mmr is indeed wrong when i play on that class, because all matches are too easy but i would have to play tons more matches to even raise my mmr since i have thousands of matches played. If i can get win streaks in a mmr level which is wrong for that particular class i play, i think people can dig their way out of mmr hell if they rotate correctly and try win the team fights. Because, if you wanna get out of mmr hell you NEED to win the team fights.
Class MMR is no longer exist for Ranked. Only your Account MMR.
I know, thats not what i was saying. What im saying is, if you really are that great at a class you will win more than you lose despite being in mmr hell.
I like how you probably never had an average or low MMR but are sure that you can amount for a majority of the outcome despite the 9 other players.
I only have over 5k hours on my ele and I can carry but never despite too many players doing their own business. I don’t think you realize the kind of conditions you can get yourself in just often enough to negate your progress and loose your appetite for playing after too many of it.
Whats your account win/loss rate? After you win middle/close (im guessing your mmr range dont even touch far at start) anyway what do you do?
(edited by sanctuary.1068)
Give me an account that is in “MMR hell”, and I will be happy to stream how the games go and prove it is a result of your own lack of skill.
Other than that, there is no “mathematical” argument anybody can make since we cant prove our own MMR.
Of course higher skill takes you out of it. I just feel like you’re missing the point. You shouldn’t need that higher skill if the system was accurate and fair.
Andddd there it is. The ladder system isn’t “fair” because it rewards people with higher skill.
At least someone finally said it. It has nothing to do with matchmaking, and everything to do with people wanting to be rewarded for their own incompetence. Because its “fair”. GG.
The thread isn’t even about it, or skill, it’s about being stuck in elo/ruby hell what ever you call it and if you are even 50 % (skill level) of the ruby devision you won’t be able to climb since you are at the buttom, which will require way more “actual” skill then it would in fair circumstances.
Well, only time i had lose streaks was when i played on classes that im not that great at. My longest being 9 lose streak, on a class i have 48% win rate on. Long ago when i played ranked more seriously on another class i had roughly 50% win rate. I stopped ranked for about a year and played other classes more casually and somehow i ended up learning another class way better than the other ones which i now have 54% win rate on. Thats also the class i flew all the way to diamond with, basically ONLY win streaks, but my mmr is indeed wrong when i play on that class, because all matches are too easy but i would have to play tons more matches to even raise my mmr since i have thousands of matches played. If i can get win streaks in a mmr level which is wrong for that particular class i play, i think people can dig their way out of mmr hell if they rotate correctly and try win the team fights. Because, if you wanna get out of mmr hell you NEED to win the team fights.
Class MMR is no longer exist for Ranked. Only your Account MMR.
I know, thats not what i was saying. What im saying is, if you really are that great at a class you will win more than you lose despite being in mmr hell.
Hm, i m not in MMR hell. I ended up nicely where i belong somewhere in legendary week or week n half ago. Why would you assume that everyone who says about the flaws has issues with that system, i only benefited from it. If everyone wants to let it go, what ever. I cba to discuss it anymore.
Give me an account that is in “MMR hell”, and I will be happy to stream how the games go and prove it is a result of your own lack of skill.
Other than that, there is no “mathematical” argument anybody can make since we cant prove our own MMR.
Of course higher skill takes you out of it. I just feel like you’re missing the point. You shouldn’t need that higher skill if the system was accurate and fair.
Andddd there it is. The ladder system isn’t “fair” because it rewards people with higher skill.
At least someone finally said it. It has nothing to do with matchmaking, and everything to do with people wanting to be rewarded for their own incompetence. Because its “fair”. GG.
The thread isn’t even about it, or skill, it’s about being stuck in elo/ruby hell what ever you call it and if you are even 50 % (skill level) of the ruby devision you won’t be able to climb since you are at the buttom, which will require way more “actual” skill then it would in fair circumstances.
Well, only time i had lose streaks was when i played on classes that im not that great at. My longest being 9 lose streak, on a class i have 48% win rate on. Long ago when i played ranked more seriously on another class i had roughly 50% win rate. I stopped ranked for about a year and played other classes more casually and somehow i ended up learning another class way better than the other ones which i now have 54% win rate on. Thats also the class i flew all the way to diamond with, basically ONLY win streaks, but my mmr is indeed wrong when i play on that class, because all matches are too easy but i would have to play tons more matches to even raise my mmr since i have thousands of matches played. If i can get win streaks in a mmr level which is wrong for that particular class i play, i think people can dig their way out of mmr hell if they rotate correctly and try win the team fights. Because, if you wanna get out of mmr hell you NEED to win the team fights.
Class MMR is no longer exist for Ranked. Only your Account MMR.
I know, thats not what i was saying. What im saying is, if you really are that great at a class you will win more than you lose despite being in mmr hell.
Hm, i m not in MMR hell. I ended up nicely where i belong somewhere in legendary week or week n half ago. Why would you assume that everyone who says about the flaws has issues with that system, i only benefited from it. If everyone wants to let it go, what ever. I cba to discuss it anymore.
I wasnt talking to you personally. Look at the name of this thread, i was speaking “you” as in general term and i was explaining what i meant since you had missunderstood the whole meaning of my earlier text. You were talking about class mmr when i didnt mention class mmr anywhere in my text. Instead i was talking about my winrate on different classes bc im not equally good at them.
Give me an account that is in “MMR hell”, and I will be happy to stream how the games go and prove it is a result of your own lack of skill.
Other than that, there is no “mathematical” argument anybody can make since we cant prove our own MMR.
Of course higher skill takes you out of it. I just feel like you’re missing the point. You shouldn’t need that higher skill if the system was accurate and fair.
Andddd there it is. The ladder system isn’t “fair” because it rewards people with higher skill.
At least someone finally said it. It has nothing to do with matchmaking, and everything to do with people wanting to be rewarded for their own incompetence. Because its “fair”. GG.
The thread isn’t even about it, or skill, it’s about being stuck in elo/ruby hell what ever you call it and if you are even 50 % (skill level) of the ruby devision you won’t be able to climb since you are at the buttom, which will require way more “actual” skill then it would in fair circumstances.
Well, only time i had lose streaks was when i played on classes that im not that great at. My longest being 9 lose streak, on a class i have 48% win rate on. Long ago when i played ranked more seriously on another class i had roughly 50% win rate. I stopped ranked for about a year and played other classes more casually and somehow i ended up learning another class way better than the other ones which i now have 54% win rate on. Thats also the class i flew all the way to diamond with, basically ONLY win streaks, but my mmr is indeed wrong when i play on that class, because all matches are too easy but i would have to play tons more matches to even raise my mmr since i have thousands of matches played. If i can get win streaks in a mmr level which is wrong for that particular class i play, i think people can dig their way out of mmr hell if they rotate correctly and try win the team fights. Because, if you wanna get out of mmr hell you NEED to win the team fights.
Class MMR is no longer exist for Ranked. Only your Account MMR.
I know, thats not what i was saying. What im saying is, if you really are that great at a class you will win more than you lose despite being in mmr hell.
Hm, i m not in MMR hell. I ended up nicely where i belong somewhere in legendary week or week n half ago. Why would you assume that everyone who says about the flaws has issues with that system, i only benefited from it. If everyone wants to let it go, what ever. I cba to discuss it anymore.
I wasnt talking to you personally. Look at the name of this thread, i was speaking “you” as in general term and i was explaining what i meant since you had missunderstood the whole meaning of my earlier text. You were talking about class mmr when i didnt mention class mmr anywhere in my text. Instead i was talking about my winrate on different classes bc im not equally good at them.
Um, i m sorry then for misunderstanding.
Give me an account that is in “MMR hell”, and I will be happy to stream how the games go and prove it is a result of your own lack of skill.
Other than that, there is no “mathematical” argument anybody can make since we cant prove our own MMR.
Of course higher skill takes you out of it. I just feel like you’re missing the point. You shouldn’t need that higher skill if the system was accurate and fair.
Andddd there it is. The ladder system isn’t “fair” because it rewards people with higher skill.
At least someone finally said it. It has nothing to do with matchmaking, and everything to do with people wanting to be rewarded for their own incompetence. Because its “fair”. GG.
The thread isn’t even about it, or skill, it’s about being stuck in elo/ruby hell what ever you call it and if you are even 50 % (skill level) of the ruby devision you won’t be able to climb since you are at the buttom, which will require way more “actual” skill then it would in fair circumstances.
Well, only time i had lose streaks was when i played on classes that im not that great at. My longest being 9 lose streak, on a class i have 48% win rate on. Long ago when i played ranked more seriously on another class i had roughly 50% win rate. I stopped ranked for about a year and played other classes more casually and somehow i ended up learning another class way better than the other ones which i now have 54% win rate on. Thats also the class i flew all the way to diamond with, basically ONLY win streaks, but my mmr is indeed wrong when i play on that class, because all matches are too easy but i would have to play tons more matches to even raise my mmr since i have thousands of matches played. If i can get win streaks in a mmr level which is wrong for that particular class i play, i think people can dig their way out of mmr hell if they rotate correctly and try win the team fights. Because, if you wanna get out of mmr hell you NEED to win the team fights.
Class MMR is no longer exist for Ranked. Only your Account MMR.
I know, thats not what i was saying. What im saying is, if you really are that great at a class you will win more than you lose despite being in mmr hell.
I like how you probably never had an average or low MMR but are sure that you can amount for a majority of the outcome despite the 9 other players.
I only have over 5k hours on my ele and I can carry but never despite too many players doing their own business. I don’t think you realize the kind of conditions you can get yourself in just often enough to negate your progress and loose your appetite for playing after too many of it.
Whats your account win/loss rate? After you win middle/close (im guessing your mmr range dont even touch far at start) anyway what do you do?
I will usually ask for who goes home and what do we do. To which 75% or more of the time I will get no answer whatsoever.
As I play a cheesemancer as my main (auramancer) I will try my hardest to stick with at least another player so I’m not wasting most of my potential. That being said, if nobody ever care about looking at the map I will go back home alone to prevent a free cap. I’m allergic to letting my cap get taken for free unless it’s obvious ill get destroyed.
Going far is not really a problem for me or the group. The problem is that ppl going far will insist going there even when they see a loosing fight (maybe they do not see it that way but they die… and go again and again).
Rotating is a real problem for a lot and they end up trickling mid most too often. the best I can do is ask them to stop feeding mid and go home or far while most of them are still mid but I can’t comply for them so I will go do the job myself knowing this smells real bad.
The biggest responsible of loss for matches we lead but end-up loosing are 80% the same: overextending. They kittening can’t help themselves. They HAVE to do it even when you beg them not to. they will leave you alone mid when you have 2 cap to go far and ignore you when you say 2-3 inc mid. It’s maddening.
My last stronghold game (was a reaper) I was the only one who said he’d go for defense. I had no problem on def while my team couldn’t get the gate guards down. Nor the treb for that matter… What did they do when the opponent was leading by 150 pts? They all came to help me defend even tho I begged them to stay on offense because most of them were fighting here and we could not win by defense at this point anyway…. so I went offense, alone, and got the gate down… and we lost.
I can switch my profession to a few others that I feel at least decent on but mos t of the time if you ask someone if he could switch you simply get ignored.
I seriously think you have no idea how it can be. It is too often just unreal. Some are apparently so tired of being called out or loosing that they are reacting to others by blocking them and then pming a litany of insults and lies to vent an, I guess, feel a bit better (but you can’t debunk their lies because they blocked you first… if you are going to be kittens at least have the balls to accept the reply).
(edited by Sirbeaumerdier.3740)
Give me an account that is in “MMR hell”, and I will be happy to stream how the games go and prove it is a result of your own lack of skill.
Other than that, there is no “mathematical” argument anybody can make since we cant prove our own MMR.
Of course higher skill takes you out of it. I just feel like you’re missing the point. You shouldn’t need that higher skill if the system was accurate and fair.
Andddd there it is. The ladder system isn’t “fair” because it rewards people with higher skill.
At least someone finally said it. It has nothing to do with matchmaking, and everything to do with people wanting to be rewarded for their own incompetence. Because its “fair”. GG.
The thread isn’t even about it, or skill, it’s about being stuck in elo/ruby hell what ever you call it and if you are even 50 % (skill level) of the ruby devision you won’t be able to climb since you are at the buttom, which will require way more “actual” skill then it would in fair circumstances.
Well, only time i had lose streaks was when i played on classes that im not that great at. My longest being 9 lose streak, on a class i have 48% win rate on. Long ago when i played ranked more seriously on another class i had roughly 50% win rate. I stopped ranked for about a year and played other classes more casually and somehow i ended up learning another class way better than the other ones which i now have 54% win rate on. Thats also the class i flew all the way to diamond with, basically ONLY win streaks, but my mmr is indeed wrong when i play on that class, because all matches are too easy but i would have to play tons more matches to even raise my mmr since i have thousands of matches played. If i can get win streaks in a mmr level which is wrong for that particular class i play, i think people can dig their way out of mmr hell if they rotate correctly and try win the team fights. Because, if you wanna get out of mmr hell you NEED to win the team fights.
Class MMR is no longer exist for Ranked. Only your Account MMR.
I know, thats not what i was saying. What im saying is, if you really are that great at a class you will win more than you lose despite being in mmr hell.
I like how you probably never had an average or low MMR but are sure that you can amount for a majority of the outcome despite the 9 other players.
I only have over 5k hours on my ele and I can carry but never despite too many players doing their own business. I don’t think you realize the kind of conditions you can get yourself in just often enough to negate your progress and loose your appetite for playing after too many of it.
Whats your account win/loss rate? After you win middle/close (im guessing your mmr range dont even touch far at start) anyway what do you do?
I will usually ask for who goes home and what do we do. To which 75% or more of the time I will get no answer whatsoever.
As I play a cheesemancer as my main (auramancer) I will try my hardest to stick with at least another player so I’m not wasting most of my potential. That being said, if nobody ever care about looking at the map I will go back home alone to prevent a free cap. I’m allergic to letting my cap get taken for free unless it’s obvious ill get destroyed.
Going far is not really a problem for me or the group. The problem is that ppl going far will insist going there even when they see a loosing fight (maybe they do not see it that way but they die… and go again and again).
Rotating is a real problem for a lot and they end up trickling mid most too often. the best I can do is ask them to stop feeding mid and go home or far while most of them are still mid but I can’t comply for them so I will go do the job myself knowing this smells real bad.
The biggest responsible of loss for matches we lead but end-up loosing are 80% the same: overextending. They kittening can’t help themselves. They HAVE to do it even when you beg them not to. they will leave you alone mid when you have 2 cap to go far and ignore you when you say 2-3 inc mid. It’s maddening.
My last stronghold game (was a reaper) I was the only one who said he’d go for defense. I had no problem on def while my team couldn’t get the gate guards down. Nor the treb for that matter… What did they do when the opponent was leading by 150 pts? They all came to help me defend even tho I begged them to stay on offense because most of them were fighting here and we could not win by defense at this point anyway…. so I went offense, alone, and got the gate down… and we lost.
I can switch my profession to a few others that I feel at least decent on but mos t of the time if you ask someone if he could switch you simply get ignored.
I seriously think you have no idea how it can be. It is too often just unreal. Some are apparently so tired of being called out or loosing that they are reacting to others by blocking them and then pming a litany of insults and lies to vent an, I guess, feel a bit better (but you can’t debunk their lies because they blocked you first… if you are going to be kittens at least have the balls to accept the reply).
I can see the flaw already. You dont have to stay on a node, just follow your team, look at minimap and follow the other teammates where they go on map. You have to control the map. When your teammates go far, go with with them since youre an ele, but be prepared for a decap on close. However, if you dont go with your team to far they will die there unless they leave far again. If you have 2 people at far vs 4 (since other team probably wants to snowball) aka take close and then middle, you make it easier for the other team if you dont +1. Then youre at a big disadvantage and have 2 dead people at far while you sit on middle and gonna be overrun by 4 people and you have 2 less people in combat. My advice is to follow your team as an ele even how kittened it feels when they go far. If you win the teamfights, you most of the time win. Try it. Just be aware that close can be decapped but if you win far, thats not an issue.
Give me an account that is in “MMR hell”, and I will be happy to stream how the games go and prove it is a result of your own lack of skill.
Other than that, there is no “mathematical” argument anybody can make since we cant prove our own MMR.
Of course higher skill takes you out of it. I just feel like you’re missing the point. You shouldn’t need that higher skill if the system was accurate and fair.
Andddd there it is. The ladder system isn’t “fair” because it rewards people with higher skill.
At least someone finally said it. It has nothing to do with matchmaking, and everything to do with people wanting to be rewarded for their own incompetence. Because its “fair”. GG.
The thread isn’t even about it, or skill, it’s about being stuck in elo/ruby hell what ever you call it and if you are even 50 % (skill level) of the ruby devision you won’t be able to climb since you are at the buttom, which will require way more “actual” skill then it would in fair circumstances.
Well, only time i had lose streaks was when i played on classes that im not that great at. My longest being 9 lose streak, on a class i have 48% win rate on. Long ago when i played ranked more seriously on another class i had roughly 50% win rate. I stopped ranked for about a year and played other classes more casually and somehow i ended up learning another class way better than the other ones which i now have 54% win rate on. Thats also the class i flew all the way to diamond with, basically ONLY win streaks, but my mmr is indeed wrong when i play on that class, because all matches are too easy but i would have to play tons more matches to even raise my mmr since i have thousands of matches played. If i can get win streaks in a mmr level which is wrong for that particular class i play, i think people can dig their way out of mmr hell if they rotate correctly and try win the team fights. Because, if you wanna get out of mmr hell you NEED to win the team fights.
Class MMR is no longer exist for Ranked. Only your Account MMR.
I know, thats not what i was saying. What im saying is, if you really are that great at a class you will win more than you lose despite being in mmr hell.
I like how you probably never had an average or low MMR but are sure that you can amount for a majority of the outcome despite the 9 other players.
I only have over 5k hours on my ele and I can carry but never despite too many players doing their own business. I don’t think you realize the kind of conditions you can get yourself in just often enough to negate your progress and loose your appetite for playing after too many of it.
Whats your account win/loss rate? After you win middle/close (im guessing your mmr range dont even touch far at start) anyway what do you do?
I will usually ask for who goes home and what do we do. To which 75% or more of the time I will get no answer whatsoever.
As I play a cheesemancer as my main (auramancer) I will try my hardest to stick with at least another player so I’m not wasting most of my potential. That being said, if nobody ever care about looking at the map I will go back home alone to prevent a free cap. I’m allergic to letting my cap get taken for free unless it’s obvious ill get destroyed.
Going far is not really a problem for me or the group. The problem is that ppl going far will insist going there even when they see a loosing fight (maybe they do not see it that way but they die… and go again and again).
Rotating is a real problem for a lot and they end up trickling mid most too often. the best I can do is ask them to stop feeding mid and go home or far while most of them are still mid but I can’t comply for them so I will go do the job myself knowing this smells real bad.
The biggest responsible of loss for matches we lead but end-up loosing are 80% the same: overextending. They kittening can’t help themselves. They HAVE to do it even when you beg them not to. they will leave you alone mid when you have 2 cap to go far and ignore you when you say 2-3 inc mid. It’s maddening.
My last stronghold game (was a reaper) I was the only one who said he’d go for defense. I had no problem on def while my team couldn’t get the gate guards down. Nor the treb for that matter… What did they do when the opponent was leading by 150 pts? They all came to help me defend even tho I begged them to stay on offense because most of them were fighting here and we could not win by defense at this point anyway…. so I went offense, alone, and got the gate down… and we lost.
I can switch my profession to a few others that I feel at least decent on but mos t of the time if you ask someone if he could switch you simply get ignored.
I seriously think you have no idea how it can be. It is too often just unreal. Some are apparently so tired of being called out or loosing that they are reacting to others by blocking them and then pming a litany of insults and lies to vent an, I guess, feel a bit better (but you can’t debunk their lies because they blocked you first… if you are going to be kittens at least have the balls to accept the reply).
I can see the flaw already. You dont have to stay on a node, just follow your team, look at minimap and follow the other teammates where they go on map. You have to control the map. When your teammates go far, go with with them since youre an ele, but be prepared for a decap on close. However, if you dont go with your team to far they will die there unless they leave far again. If you have 2 people at far vs 4 (since other team probably wants to snowball) aka take close and then middle, you make it easier for the other team if you dont +1. Then youre at a big disadvantage and have 2 dead people at far while you sit on middle and gonna be overrun by 4 people and you have 2 less people in combat. My advice is to follow your team as an ele even how kittened it feels when they go far. If you win the teamfights, you most of the time win. Try it. Just be aware that close can be decapped but if you win far, thats not an issue.
I would, if any of them would bother checking the kittening map. I mean, sure I can always do better. Always. But pinning myself with majority of the blame is pure BS.
I’m really not sure based on the wording of the OP. But I would be okay with playing on someone’s account they think is rigged against them and getting them a nearly full page of victories. Would be how I could see testing this.
I myself tried playing games with a friend (not super skilled) and we lost 12 games in a row. It was horrible, since then I tried playing again, and lost 5 games with him (and his gf for some of it). Honestly, outside of those matches, worse has been about 3 loses in a row. (Maybe 4 or 5, but I don’t remember it) So if the argument is that after X loses you can’t get back to winning, that is a lie, unless something different happens with duo-queuing.
Give me an account that is in “MMR hell”, and I will be happy to stream how the games go and prove it is a result of your own lack of skill.
Other than that, there is no “mathematical” argument anybody can make since we cant prove our own MMR.
Of course higher skill takes you out of it. I just feel like you’re missing the point. You shouldn’t need that higher skill if the system was accurate and fair.
Andddd there it is. The ladder system isn’t “fair” because it rewards people with higher skill.
At least someone finally said it. It has nothing to do with matchmaking, and everything to do with people wanting to be rewarded for their own incompetence. Because its “fair”. GG.
The thread isn’t even about it, or skill, it’s about being stuck in elo/ruby hell what ever you call it and if you are even 50 % (skill level) of the ruby devision you won’t be able to climb since you are at the buttom, which will require way more “actual” skill then it would in fair circumstances.
Well, only time i had lose streaks was when i played on classes that im not that great at. My longest being 9 lose streak, on a class i have 48% win rate on. Long ago when i played ranked more seriously on another class i had roughly 50% win rate. I stopped ranked for about a year and played other classes more casually and somehow i ended up learning another class way better than the other ones which i now have 54% win rate on. Thats also the class i flew all the way to diamond with, basically ONLY win streaks, but my mmr is indeed wrong when i play on that class, because all matches are too easy but i would have to play tons more matches to even raise my mmr since i have thousands of matches played. If i can get win streaks in a mmr level which is wrong for that particular class i play, i think people can dig their way out of mmr hell if they rotate correctly and try win the team fights. Because, if you wanna get out of mmr hell you NEED to win the team fights.
Class MMR is no longer exist for Ranked. Only your Account MMR.
I know, thats not what i was saying. What im saying is, if you really are that great at a class you will win more than you lose despite being in mmr hell.
I like how you probably never had an average or low MMR but are sure that you can amount for a majority of the outcome despite the 9 other players.
I only have over 5k hours on my ele and I can carry but never despite too many players doing their own business. I don’t think you realize the kind of conditions you can get yourself in just often enough to negate your progress and loose your appetite for playing after too many of it.
Whats your account win/loss rate? After you win middle/close (im guessing your mmr range dont even touch far at start) anyway what do you do?
I will usually ask for who goes home and what do we do. To which 75% or more of the time I will get no answer whatsoever.
As I play a cheesemancer as my main (auramancer) I will try my hardest to stick with at least another player so I’m not wasting most of my potential. That being said, if nobody ever care about looking at the map I will go back home alone to prevent a free cap. I’m allergic to letting my cap get taken for free unless it’s obvious ill get destroyed.
Going far is not really a problem for me or the group. The problem is that ppl going far will insist going there even when they see a loosing fight (maybe they do not see it that way but they die… and go again and again).
Rotating is a real problem for a lot and they end up trickling mid most too often. the best I can do is ask them to stop feeding mid and go home or far while most of them are still mid but I can’t comply for them so I will go do the job myself knowing this smells real bad.
The biggest responsible of loss for matches we lead but end-up loosing are 80% the same: overextending. They kittening can’t help themselves. They HAVE to do it even when you beg them not to. they will leave you alone mid when you have 2 cap to go far and ignore you when you say 2-3 inc mid. It’s maddening.
My last stronghold game (was a reaper) I was the only one who said he’d go for defense. I had no problem on def while my team couldn’t get the gate guards down. Nor the treb for that matter… What did they do when the opponent was leading by 150 pts? They all came to help me defend even tho I begged them to stay on offense because most of them were fighting here and we could not win by defense at this point anyway…. so I went offense, alone, and got the gate down… and we lost.
I can switch my profession to a few others that I feel at least decent on but mos t of the time if you ask someone if he could switch you simply get ignored.
I seriously think you have no idea how it can be. It is too often just unreal. Some are apparently so tired of being called out or loosing that they are reacting to others by blocking them and then pming a litany of insults and lies to vent an, I guess, feel a bit better (but you can’t debunk their lies because they blocked you first… if you are going to be kittens at least have the balls to accept the reply).
I can see the flaw already. You dont have to stay on a node, just follow your team, look at minimap and follow the other teammates where they go on map. You have to control the map. When your teammates go far, go with with them since youre an ele, but be prepared for a decap on close. However, if you dont go with your team to far they will die there unless they leave far again. If you have 2 people at far vs 4 (since other team probably wants to snowball) aka take close and then middle, you make it easier for the other team if you dont +1. Then youre at a big disadvantage and have 2 dead people at far while you sit on middle and gonna be overrun by 4 people and you have 2 less people in combat. My advice is to follow your team as an ele even how kittened it feels when they go far. If you win the teamfights, you most of the time win. Try it. Just be aware that close can be decapped but if you win far, thats not an issue.
I would, if any of them would bother checking the kittening map. I mean, sure I can always do better. Always. But pinning myself with majority of the blame is pure BS.
Not saying that you should blame yourself. But my advice is to adapt to your team, however dumb it feels. When you stay middle or go close bc youre worried about a decap, you arent adapting to your team.
Give me an account that is in “MMR hell”, and I will be happy to stream how the games go and prove it is a result of your own lack of skill.
Other than that, there is no “mathematical” argument anybody can make since we cant prove our own MMR.
Of course higher skill takes you out of it. I just feel like you’re missing the point. You shouldn’t need that higher skill if the system was accurate and fair.
Andddd there it is. The ladder system isn’t “fair” because it rewards people with higher skill.
At least someone finally said it. It has nothing to do with matchmaking, and everything to do with people wanting to be rewarded for their own incompetence. Because its “fair”. GG.
The thread isn’t even about it, or skill, it’s about being stuck in elo/ruby hell what ever you call it and if you are even 50 % (skill level) of the ruby devision you won’t be able to climb since you are at the buttom, which will require way more “actual” skill then it would in fair circumstances.
Well, only time i had lose streaks was when i played on classes that im not that great at. My longest being 9 lose streak, on a class i have 48% win rate on. Long ago when i played ranked more seriously on another class i had roughly 50% win rate. I stopped ranked for about a year and played other classes more casually and somehow i ended up learning another class way better than the other ones which i now have 54% win rate on. Thats also the class i flew all the way to diamond with, basically ONLY win streaks, but my mmr is indeed wrong when i play on that class, because all matches are too easy but i would have to play tons more matches to even raise my mmr since i have thousands of matches played. If i can get win streaks in a mmr level which is wrong for that particular class i play, i think people can dig their way out of mmr hell if they rotate correctly and try win the team fights. Because, if you wanna get out of mmr hell you NEED to win the team fights.
Class MMR is no longer exist for Ranked. Only your Account MMR.
I know, thats not what i was saying. What im saying is, if you really are that great at a class you will win more than you lose despite being in mmr hell.
I like how you probably never had an average or low MMR but are sure that you can amount for a majority of the outcome despite the 9 other players.
I only have over 5k hours on my ele and I can carry but never despite too many players doing their own business. I don’t think you realize the kind of conditions you can get yourself in just often enough to negate your progress and loose your appetite for playing after too many of it.
Whats your account win/loss rate? After you win middle/close (im guessing your mmr range dont even touch far at start) anyway what do you do?
I will usually ask for who goes home and what do we do. To which 75% or more of the time I will get no answer whatsoever.
As I play a cheesemancer as my main (auramancer) I will try my hardest to stick with at least another player so I’m not wasting most of my potential. That being said, if nobody ever care about looking at the map I will go back home alone to prevent a free cap. I’m allergic to letting my cap get taken for free unless it’s obvious ill get destroyed.
Going far is not really a problem for me or the group. The problem is that ppl going far will insist going there even when they see a loosing fight (maybe they do not see it that way but they die… and go again and again).
Rotating is a real problem for a lot and they end up trickling mid most too often. the best I can do is ask them to stop feeding mid and go home or far while most of them are still mid but I can’t comply for them so I will go do the job myself knowing this smells real bad.
The biggest responsible of loss for matches we lead but end-up loosing are 80% the same: overextending. They kittening can’t help themselves. They HAVE to do it even when you beg them not to. they will leave you alone mid when you have 2 cap to go far and ignore you when you say 2-3 inc mid. It’s maddening.
My last stronghold game (was a reaper) I was the only one who said he’d go for defense. I had no problem on def while my team couldn’t get the gate guards down. Nor the treb for that matter… What did they do when the opponent was leading by 150 pts? They all came to help me defend even tho I begged them to stay on offense because most of them were fighting here and we could not win by defense at this point anyway…. so I went offense, alone, and got the gate down… and we lost.
I can switch my profession to a few others that I feel at least decent on but mos t of the time if you ask someone if he could switch you simply get ignored.
I seriously think you have no idea how it can be. It is too often just unreal. Some are apparently so tired of being called out or loosing that they are reacting to others by blocking them and then pming a litany of insults and lies to vent an, I guess, feel a bit better (but you can’t debunk their lies because they blocked you first… if you are going to be kittens at least have the balls to accept the reply).
I can see the flaw already. You dont have to stay on a node, just follow your team, look at minimap and follow the other teammates where they go on map. You have to control the map. When your teammates go far, go with with them since youre an ele, but be prepared for a decap on close. However, if you dont go with your team to far they will die there unless they leave far again. If you have 2 people at far vs 4 (since other team probably wants to snowball) aka take close and then middle, you make it easier for the other team if you dont +1. Then youre at a big disadvantage and have 2 dead people at far while you sit on middle and gonna be overrun by 4 people and you have 2 less people in combat. My advice is to follow your team as an ele even how kittened it feels when they go far. If you win the teamfights, you most of the time win. Try it. Just be aware that close can be decapped but if you win far, thats not an issue.
I would, if any of them would bother checking the kittening map. I mean, sure I can always do better. Always. But pinning myself with majority of the blame is pure BS.
Not saying that you should blame yourself. But my advice is to adapt to your team, however dumb it feels. When you stay middle or go close bc youre worried about a decap, you arent adapting to your team.
I’ll try it more and I’ll update you about it.
Nice work but you do know that correlation doesn’t mean causation, right??
Of course. It also has nothing to do with what’s going on here – this is a simulation using hypothetical data and processes, not an analysis of real data. It’s thus theoretical and descriptive. Correlation != causation does not apply in a simulation, as there are no cofounders or measurement error – the model is fully specified, and any errors are discrepancies between the model and a real system.
- How is the meta impacting your data? (I.e. class imbalance and what not)
The meta shows up in two ways in the rankings. First, you can think of your build as something that shifts your ‘true’ MMR strength – if you are playing a strong meta build, your true strength is higher than if you were playing an average build, while playing a weak build has you perform as if you had a lower strength. If you switch builds and classes from game to game, then your ‘true’ strength is actually changing from game to game as well, which makes your performance and your rating more volatile. I didn’t put anything like that into this simulation, because I’ve done so enough in the past to know it doesn’t really change anything – it makes the system a bit more volatile, and players ratings on average represent a combination of their MMR and the strength of their plate of builds.
The second way it impacts the model (or reality) is by making match outcomes more unpredictable. If everyone played identical builds then differences in skill and in-game performance explain the variance in outcomes, but when builds are involved differences in the match-up advantage also explain outcomes. This means that while a team may be favored to win, say, 70-30 by MMR, they are in reality only favored to win 65-35; in the worst case the build advantage is a coin toss and it drives real win rates towards 50-50. Over the course of a long simulation, this effect doesn’t really mean anything – it lowers the MMR spread (good players have slightly lower MMRs than their true strength, and weak players have slightly higher) by trivial amounts, and really only on the extreme tips where it’s hard to make matches for players.
- New players started with higher MMR than folks who tried to cripple their way to legendary/diamond.
I always throw this into the initial conditions. Under competitive matchmaking, even huge differences between MMR and real skill fix themselves within 100 games or so. The system in use here is not competitive matchmaking however, so it converges slower – really extreme differences in MMR and skill take 200 games or so to correct themselves. These are huge discrepancies, by the way, like having a 1100 MMR player (~25th percentile skill) being carried to 2800 MMR (3rd best MMR in the league) in the preseason – this corrects itself and that player is comfortably back at their MMR, glued to the bottom of diamond after being carried there.
Note that this ends up converging on true ratings faster than they would have during season 1 (and after sufficient games, ends up converging faster than ladder-less matches!) This works because the imbalanced matches, while not very fun, impose a pretty fast, rough sort of the player base amongst the divisions. After it’s done that, the imbalanced matchmaker actually sets up a lot of opportunities for upsets within each division – if you’re underrated given your MMR and division, it’ll feed you a steady diet of matches that it expects you to lose, and pairs you with teammates that are probably higher rated than you, statistically, so the carry effect is that much stronger.
-What are your independent and dependent variables?
There are no indepenedent or dependent variables, as this is a simulation of system dynamics, not a regression.
(edited by Ensign.2189)
@ensign, I’ll definitely poke at the model more when I get home. Looking at your model’s results though is there any way to plug into your system a player who is at the 5% mark for ruby t0 but is skilled at 50% ruby t0 and then track to see how long it takes to correct? (That is add them once the seasons distribution has even’d out with a reasonably high confidence)
When I did my initial runs (i think it was 3 or 4 games an hour, play time of 3-4 hours a day, 4-5 days a week) (at work so I can’t check) some of them would never correct in the season.
Do you feel those are reasonable assumptions or do you prefer I compare with something that plays a far higher amount of games?
And yay, thanks for being someone to take this discussion seriously!
And for the MMR hell discussion… I posit and show why I think it is true that a player with skill 50% but MMR 5% will still lose MORE than 75%-80% of his matches and the minimum MMR penalty for that substantial of a loss rate will outweigh any MMR gained.
Why do you think there’s a minimum MMR gain or loss from a match? Glicko uses logistic curves over the entire range, it never hits a cap – if the best player beats the worst player, the rating changes will be a small fraction of one point.
The meta shows up in two ways in the rankings. First, you can think of your build as something that shifts your ‘true’ MMR strength – if you are playing a strong meta build, your true strength is higher than if you were playing an average build, while playing a weak build has you perform as if you had a lower strength. If you switch builds and classes from game to game, then your ‘true’ strength is actually changing from game to game as well, which makes your performance and your rating more volatile. I didn’t put anything like that into this simulation, because I’ve done so enough in the past to know it doesn’t really change anything – it makes the system a bit more volatile, and players ratings on average represent a combination of their MMR and the strength of their plate of builds.
The second way it impacts the model (or reality) is by making match outcomes more unpredictable.
I think in fact it makes the matches mostly more predictable. With few exceptions, in my experience, the better (and likely higher mmr) teams have more meta classes and better composition than the poorer teams. This increases further the inevitability of the higher mmr team winning. Just as well there is no such thing as fate, though Anet appear to have tried to code such a thing into the league system.
Nice work but you do know that correlation doesn’t mean causation, right??
Of course. It also has nothing to do with what’s going on here – this is a simulation using hypothetical data and processes, not an analysis of real data. It’s thus theoretical and descriptive. Correlation != causation does not apply in a simulation, as there are no cofounders or measurement error – the model is fully specified, and any errors are discrepancies between the model and a real system.
- How is the meta impacting your data? (I.e. class imbalance and what not)
The meta shows up in two ways in the rankings. First, you can think of your build as something that shifts your ‘true’ MMR strength – if you are playing a strong meta build, your true strength is higher than if you were playing an average build, while playing a weak build has you perform as if you had a lower strength. If you switch builds and classes from game to game, then your ‘true’ strength is actually changing from game to game as well, which makes your performance and your rating more volatile. I didn’t put anything like that into this simulation, because I’ve done so enough in the past to know it doesn’t really change anything – it makes the system a bit more volatile, and players ratings on average represent a combination of their MMR and the strength of their plate of builds.
The second way it impacts the model (or reality) is by making match outcomes more unpredictable. If everyone played identical builds then differences in skill and in-game performance explain the variance in outcomes, but when builds are involved differences in the match-up advantage also explain outcomes. This means that while a team may be favored to win, say, 70-30 by MMR, they are in reality only favored to win 65-35; in the worst case the build advantage is a coin toss and it drives real win rates towards 50-50. Over the course of a long simulation, this effect doesn’t really mean anything – it lowers the MMR spread (good players have slightly lower MMRs than their true strength, and weak players have slightly higher) by trivial amounts, and really only on the extreme tips where it’s hard to make matches for players.
- New players started with higher MMR than folks who tried to cripple their way to legendary/diamond.
I always throw this into the initial conditions. Under competitive matchmaking, even huge differences between MMR and real skill fix themselves within 100 games or so. The system in use here is not competitive matchmaking however, so it converges slower – really extreme differences in MMR and skill take 200 games or so to correct themselves. These are huge discrepancies, by the way, like having a 1100 MMR player (~25th percentile skill) being carried to 2800 MMR (3rd best MMR in the league) in the preseason – this corrects itself and that player is comfortably back at their MMR, glued to the bottom of diamond after being carried there.
Note that this ends up converging on true ratings faster than they would have during season 1 (and after sufficient games, ends up converging faster than ladder-less matches!) This works because the imbalanced matches, while not very fun, impose a pretty fast, rough sort of the player base amongst the divisions. After it’s done that, the imbalanced matchmaker actually sets up a lot of opportunities for upsets within each division – if you’re underrated given your MMR and division, it’ll feed you a steady diet of matches that it expects you to lose, and pairs you with teammates that are probably higher rated than you, statistically, so the carry effect is that much stronger.
-What are your independent and dependent variables?
There are no indepenedent or dependent variables, as this is a simulation of system dynamics, not a regression.
Can you imagine what it is to have to go through anything close to 200 matches just to get out of the kind of team making (your own and the opponent) you are handed if your MMR is too far from it’s real mark?
I do my daily these days and I’m done even if I win 2 matches out of 3 because I’m kittening spent on this game.
Can’t show proper 100% unquestionable evidence for this. Here is what i got to show you that the MMR sink or hole whatever is climbale.
3, 2, 1, Storytine:
I did not no life grind @ the start of the season so i reached ruby ~at the time first player got to legend. All was well, no problems with climbing.
so was ruby to a point. (~ this point http://i.imgur.com/AXnlkLt.jpg)
At this moment i have chosen a wrong time to que. I got paired with some plebs with uncarryable performance. For one time ok…. but w8. I dont believe in luck or any type of ‘fortune’ or whatever. Getting this amount of uncarryable matches was a bit suspicious to me too. A majority of them could be won if i tryhard to the max and if i wasn’t tilting i guess, but shlt happens all the time. (http://i.imgur.com/5N6EkrV.jpg , http://i.imgur.com/pMBsuwr.jpg) since i consider myself a decent player i was rather mad at myself and the randoms getting carryed up in divisions by broken builds w/o any understanding on basic tactics of gw2, becouse i fell back to t1 (http://i.imgur.com/Tatz5fa.jpg)
If i follow the MMR-hell theory, at this point my MMR should have sunk to a ridiculously low level becouse of the aweful w/l ratio of my recent matches and should have stuck in ruby for a long time.
This was not the case. After i fell back to t1 i carryed myself out with a reverse w/l ratio to legend. (http://i.imgur.com/I9gmKeH.jpg).
I believe that the loosing streak had a big influence on my road to legend. I felt like i had a lot more scrubs on my team i should have and had some close moments to a stroke in last tier of diamond, but it was absolutely doable.
I have some video records or 3ppl going for svanir wile ele is 1v3-ing mid(midgame) or after a won 3v1 at mid all 3 players rotate out and the dead opponent fullcaps mid etc… all this in ruby/diamond or even legend. Games like those where uncarryable, which happen inevitable over time. You have to swallow it and move on. The majority of QQ comes from people who just WANT to progress and do not care about getting actually better at the game.
And for the MMR hell discussion… I posit and show why I think it is true that a player with skill 50% but MMR 5% will still lose MORE than 75%-80% of his matches and the minimum MMR penalty for that substantial of a loss rate will outweigh any MMR gained.
Why do you think there’s a minimum MMR gain or loss from a match? Glicko uses logistic curves over the entire range, it never hits a cap – if the best player beats the worst player, the rating changes will be a small fraction of one point.
For two reasons, one because in the config it’s declared as 1300 not 1300.0 which would generally be used for a float so I figured it was stored as an integer.
Two, there is a maximum expected MMR to be in 15 pips range of a t0 ruby player and the loss from that match would be the minimum loss that could be expected. Or alternatively since MMR is capped, you could figure a loss to a max mmr player as the minimum.
After it’s done that, the imbalanced matchmaker actually sets up a lot of opportunities for upsets within each division – if you’re underrated given your MMR and division, it’ll feed you a steady diet of matches that it expects you to lose, and pairs you with teammates that are probably higher rated than you, statistically, so the carry effect is that much stronger.
Why would it pair you with higher rated teammates? As I understood it, it paired you with teammates it thought were your skill level.
(edited by Tenebria.7239)
Looking at your model’s results though is there any way to plug into your system a player who is at the 5% mark for ruby t0 but is skilled at 50% ruby t0 and then track to see how long it takes to correct? (That is add them once the seasons distribution has even’d out with a reasonably high confidence)
I could do that, the problem is based on the distributions I’m getting of a ‘stable’ ruby t0 (there isn’t actually a stable ruby t0; with enough games played the majority of players end up in diamond, with ruby t0 becoming a wasteland of really bad players – we never actually hit that point in reality because only a small minority of players will play 300-400 games a season) a 5th percentile MMR, 50th percentile trueskill player is already within the error bounds of his true MMR.
All of these things are sensitive to how you set up your matchmaking. On the model I’ve described the imbalanced matchmaker ends up working better for finding real MMR than the season 1 matchmaker – after 200 games the correlation between true skill and MMR is 0.953 for the imbalanced matchmaker, while it’s 0.939 for the unranked matchamker – and only 0.866 for the S1 matchmaker. The S1 matchmaker ends up being kind of a mess in this model because it selected pretty hard on rank, and rank did not correlate well with skill; teams ended up really random, and there’s a lot of noise. Pure MMR matchmaking does a good job of converging on real skill pretty fast. S2 MMR actually converges a bit faster – the initial, imbalanced matchmaking does a quick, rough sort of players into reinforcing rank brackets (which do correlate with MMR, unlike in season 1); after settling a bit it ends up acting a lot like the pure MMR matchmaking, with a few more imbalanced matches that give poorly rated players the chance to carry.
Do you feel those are reasonable assumptions or do you prefer I compare with something that plays a far higher amount of games?
I’ve been using roughly 200 games per player (there’s no clean way to ensure the same number of matches per player without compromising matchmaking integrity that I know of) and that seems to be enough to get a big population stuck at T0 ruby (rank 60). Anything in the 150-250 range gets you around there – less than that and you have a lot of ‘mmr hell’ people still stuck in sapphire, and more than that and you start to see the big accumulation of players in diamond. Again, this is with a normal distribution of games played centered around 200 – if you used a more realistic, skewed distribution (which is way more modeling of behavior than I want to do) then you’d likely see all this shifted downwards – more 200 game players stuck in low ruby because there are 50 game players with higher MMR pushing them down.
So really, just pick a distribution that’s representative enough of what you think is going on and run with it.
All these people complaining about these blowout matches where they lose by 200+ points should post the score page showing the team class compositions for each side. While the wide range of skill levels in Ruby is a major factor, I believe that weak team compositions also are playing another large part.
That may be a way to weed out some of the complaints about MMR when the cause of the loss was entirely in their control.
snip
That may be a way to weed out some of the complaints about MMR when the cause of the loss was entirely in their control.
When is it ever entirely or even in majority in your control? I can change my build and prof but I can’t force the 2 wars on my team to switch if they don’t want to. I can tell what I intend to do and communicate but whether or not ppl care is out of my control. I can call target but I can’t focus for them etc.
I think in fact it makes the matches mostly more predictable. With few exceptions, in my experience, the better (and likely higher mmr) teams have more meta classes and better composition than the poorer teams. This increases further the inevitability of the higher mmr team winning. Just as well there is no such thing as fate, though Anet appear to have tried to code such a thing into the league system.
It sure feels like you have a lot of ‘designated wins and losses’ but truth is you’re going to have a lot of those anyway. Look at the standard Elo model of game performance – you perform at your true rating, +/- some deviation of that rating from game to game (you have good games and bad games). So will your opponent. Let’s say that your own performance, within the +/- 2 standard deviations, is within your control, you can do that to influence the outcome of the match by playing better or having a bad game (you’ll also occasionally get lucky and play out of your mind, or play terribly). That means that, given an opponent doing the same thing, you’ll have a 95.5% chance of getting a match where how you perform matters – 2.25% of the time they’ll play out of their mind that game and you can’t realistically catch up, and 2.25% of the time they’ll just throw and you win by default. That’s a really good match.
But if you’re in a 5v5, there are 9 other players having good and bad games. Sometimes the opponents will all have good games and all your teammates will have bad games, and it doesn’t matter what you do, you’re still going to lose. In fact, under the same assumptions as above and arithmetic skill assumptions, you only have a 49.5% chance of having your own play matter in a game with otherwise perfect matchmaking. More than half the time your own performance doesn’t matter simply due to teammates and opponents of identical skill having good and bad games that in sum swamp your marginal contribution. (of course you can always choose to throw, and so can they – this assumes everyone is trying and just having natural variation in performance).
In a pretty lopsided match, say one that your opponent is expected to win 84% of the time (they’re on the whole a full standard deviation better than you). The probability of your own play mattering is still 32%. Yes, that’s a lot lower, and you’re going to get a lot more scheduled losses than scheduled wins in that case. But still, even in that case, in the 16% of games that you win (and 16 of the 84 you lose) your play mattered. Yeah, it sucks that 2/3 of the time you just lose in that case, but in the default case you just win or lose 50% of the time anyway – it’s not that huge of a difference.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that you have to be philosophical about outcomes in team games. More than half the time you’re just pulling a teammate slot machine no matter how well matchmaking is working. Even if you’re doomed to be fed lopsided match-ups you still have an impact and can make a difference in well over a third of your games. You have to play for those games and learn to shrug off the others if you’re going to make progress.
@Ensign.2189 that may be where I went differently. I was trying to assign players playtimes and queuing them in random order during the assigned playtimes in minute intervals with games assumed to last 15minutes. Probably too much of a mess.
But do I understand correctly then that the 50% player can wind up with the 5%mmr at some locations within the error bounds so he has roughly only a 1/10 or so (can’t do the actual calc right now) win chance using team mmr as the predictor?
Also how does skewing the win and loss chances affect your sim? Since elo might say that you have a 5% chance to win but is that 5% accurate when you approach the edges?
(edited by Tenebria.7239)
snip
That may be a way to weed out some of the complaints about MMR when the cause of the loss was entirely in their control.
When is it ever entirely or even in majority in your control? I can change my build and prof but I can’t force the 2 wars on my team to switch if they don’t want to. I can tell what I intend to do and communicate but whether or not ppl care is out of my control. I can call target but I can’t focus for them etc.
You can change to a class that your team lacks. When I said “their” I was referring to the team. People blame MMR when it very well could be a factor outside of that.
For two reasons, one because in the config it’s declared as 1300 not 1300.0 which would generally be used for a float so I figured it was stored as an integer.
Two, there is a maximum expected MMR to be in 15 pips range of a t0 ruby player and the loss from that match would be the minimum loss that could be expected. Or alternatively since MMR is capped, you could figure a loss to a max mmr player as the minimum.
Sure, so you’re presuming a rounding effect that caps the minimum rating loss from a match to be 1 MMR. I suppose that’s interesting in theory, but I’ve never seen that be an issue in any of these simulations or in the complaints of people stuck in MMR hell. I have a lot of players pinned to the bottom of ruby with ~30% win rates, for instance, but I’ve never seen, or have heard reported, people being stuck there with the sub-10% win-rates that you’d have to have for that rounding to be important. Such players have trouble getting out of Emerald let alone Sapphire.
Why would it pair you with higher rated teammates? As I understood it, it paired you with teammates it thought were your skill level.
Edge effects. In the extreme case, if you have the lowest MMR in your pip bracket then all of your teammates will have a higher MMR than you, 100% of the time. Even if you’re not at the very bottom of the bracket, well, draw a normal curve. If you’re picking teammates and opponents from a uniform range around your rating, there are more above you in rating than below you, so on average your teammates and opponents will have a higher MMR than you. The inverse if true as well, of course – if you have a really high rating, your teammates will usually have a lower MMR than you since the matchmaker can’t find other similarly rated players (since they don’t exist).
Ok, so two differing assumptions then:
I assumed the maker chose teammates from a range around you with the goal of arriving at lowest possible error from the average to the rating of the first player it had assigned to that bracket area team.
Your assumption is that it shuffles through all the players in queue until it finds 5 in a range and groups them into a team?
Edit: and yes I was feeding it players with sub 10% win rates at some points in order to see what happened.
Yeah, it sucks that 2/3 of the time you just lose in that case, but in the default case you just win or lose 50% of the time anyway – it’s not that huge of a difference.
Actually, IMO, there is a huge difference between winning half of the time and losing twice as many as you win. It is, in fact, the difference between fun and an exercise in futility.
And some people actually play PvP for fun. I don’t give a monkey’s **** for a legendary back pack. And I am not bothered about shiny badges either.
At least with the old MMR leaderboard games were always aimed to be balanced and no matter how good or bad you were every time you played you could aim to improve your position on the ladder; it was competitive for everyone all of the time. There were a few problems with decay but that was a small issue compared to the current system which is genuinely likely to be the death of PvP in this game if they don’t fix it for next season.
Oh and ensign, since yours outputs to pictures prettily, any chance of that point distribution showing system MMR vs Skill at some of the game number breakpoints?
Edge effects. In the extreme case, if you have the lowest MMR in your pip bracket then all of your teammates will have a higher MMR than you, 100% of the time. Even if you’re not at the very bottom of the bracket, well, draw a normal curve. If you’re picking teammates and opponents from a uniform range around your rating, there are more above you in rating than below you, so on average your teammates and opponents will have a higher MMR than you. The inverse if true as well, of course – if you have a really high rating, your teammates will usually have a lower MMR than you since the matchmaker can’t find other similarly rated players (since they don’t exist).
Well the pip pool is working backwards too. Just saying.
But do I understand correctly then that the 50% player can wind up with the 5%mmr at some locations within the error bounds so he has roughly only a 1/10 or so (can’t do the actual calc right now) win chance using team mmr as the predictor?
The lowest MMR for a player @ r60 in the last sim I ran is 1024. The average MMR for a player @ r60 is 1207. Using the simplifying assumptions (player performance adds linearly, independent game-to-game variation, standard rating volatility so it all reduces to Elo), matchmaking would predict that this player, paired with the other 4 worst players at r60 (average MMR of 1050.8), would beat an average r60 team only 12% of the time. However, if the guy stuck at 1024 MMR is actually an average player for his rank (1207 MMR), with the same four bottom feeding teammates, his actual probability of winning against an average r60 team is 18%. At standard volatility said mis-rated player would expect to gain roughly 1.5 MMR per match played – even though they are only winning 18% of the time.
Also how does skewing the win and loss chances affect your sim? Since elo might say that you have a 5% chance to win but is that 5% accurate when you approach the edges?
I assume that team rating is an equal, linear combination of individual ratings with normal distributions of individual player performances. I don’t think this accurately matches reality but it is the assumption baked into the GW2 MMR system and I’m not going to mess with that here. Personally I think the real distribution of individual performances is hyperkeratotic (fatter tails) and that team rating is not an equal weighing of individual ratings (I believe there are strong carry effects and better players matter more than weaker players to the outcome of the match). There’s also additional variation from buildwars and class choices that drive things towards 0.
However these factors make the model conservative – while it says you might only have a 5% chance of winning, you probably have a 6, 8, even 10% chance of winning due to buildwars, disconnects, someone playing drunk, or whatever.
Grats, I think you win! (Or you played and have good data, if I got the following mostly correct, you will) What kinda shinies do you like?
Also just to clarify and make sure I have it right:
The hypothetical 5%/50% misranked player might have to play upwards of 50ish matches to correct himself? And then play to raise pips?
After 200ish games when the season has reached the distribution you posted, the distribution of skill across ranks is a somewhat normal distribution across a 50 pip spread? So an average skilled player will be between t4 Sapphire and t3 Diamond.
If more games are played the entire distribution will shift up but still retain that rough amount of pip accuracy?
Also unrelated, but interesting nonetheless, would it be more advantageous for a player to just take some days off of ranked and let the rating decay back to normal?
Edit, if i got something wrong tell me, I don’t want to be putting words in your mouth.
(edited by Tenebria.7239)
Oh and ensign, since yours outputs to pictures prettily, any chance of that point distribution showing system MMR vs Skill at some of the game number breakpoints?
See attached image of rating and rank evolution at 50 game breakpoints. Note that these are averages. The way I construct teams is that I choose a player at random, then sample a player from the population within the matchmaking parameters (rating, rank) consistent with that first player, then a 3rd subject to those first 2, etc for a 4th and 5th; I then find another player within the matchmaking rank space, and fill out their team subject to all the previous constraints. If at any point it is unable to find a player that meets the criteria, it restarts the process from the same seed player, but with a wider matchmaking criteria. This isn’t perfect by any means, but I think is a reasonable facsimile of what goes on – its big problem is the edge case players, who only get matches when they’re the focal player because they’re so far out there that they never get selected otherwise. You can see a couple of them in the plots – they end up with only ~60 games played over the full sample and have largely stopped getting games by the end.
That said, this is a really simple model that shows some pretty powerful results – ratings converge pretty quickly, and rank is reasonably reflective of true skill. The biggest deviation from reality is the large number of players who don’t play as much, which I could try and model but have decided against, as I’m not sure what it’s going to tell me that’s worth the hour or so it’ll take to code up.
Ok, so two differing assumptions then:
I assumed the maker chose teammates from a range around you with the goal of arriving at lowest possible error from the average to the rating of the first player it had assigned to that bracket area team.
Your assumption is that it shuffles through all the players in queue until it finds 5 in a range and groups them into a team?
Yeah. I think there’s a difference there depending on the number of players in the queue. Personally I would assume that only a small fraction of players are in the queue at any time, which makes the teams more heterogeneous; if you put in big queues and tight matchmaking you’ll get more homogeneous teams. I expect you’d see some differences in the match results there but I would not expect the differences to be large.
well i made it to legendary playing only warrior (minus like 15 pips on dh) so I dont want to hear excuses.
I know you meant as a “I made it, so can you” statement, but it shows how rather flawed the system actually is.
I bet most of the time you only got matched against players that couldnt identify and dodge the necessary skills. Its what I experienced on an account on the “easy” side of mmr.
The hypothetical 5%/50% misranked player might have to play upwards of 50ish matches to correct himself? And then play to raise pips?
The hypothetical 5% / 50% misrated player that you mentioned is actually at the correct rank – he is supposed to be in low ruby, and is, he’s just there with an abnormally low MMR for his rank. That player will have to play ~50 games or so to correct his MMR, at which point he’ll be at the right rank and rating. He’ll move upward along with the rising tide of players as MMR spreads out more amongst the ranks – slowly while he is underrated, more in line with how everyone else is moving once he’s corrected his MMR.
After 200ish games when the season has reached the distribution you posted, the distribution of skill across ranks is a somewhat normal distribution across a 50 pip spread? So an average skilled player will be between t4 Sapphire and t3 Diamond.
See attached. Genuinely average players with ~200 games played are almost all in ruby (ranks 60-89), with just a handful of stragglers and a couple lucky souls that have made it into diamond.
Compare with the overall rank population, also in the attachment, which is a lot more spread out (and you can definitely see the ratcheting taking place, particularly the diamond floor and the sapphire steps).
If more games are played the entire distribution will shift up but still retain that rough amount of pip accuracy?
Yes, with the caveat that there’s that firm ratchet in place at the bottom of diamond. So over time you’ll see more and more players on the cusp slipping over that, and then piling up at the bottom of diamond; players in ruby then have easier match-ups, creep up and eventually slip over themselves, etc. With enough games played the whole distribution will stick to the bottom of diamond, with a ton of players in low diamond and progressively fewer at each successive rank.
Also unrelated, but interesting nonetheless, would it be more advantageous for a player to just take some days off of ranked and let the rating decay back to normal?
I imagine that rating decay is really slow, so I can’t imagine that would be effective, especially within a season. If things are going badly though it definitely makes sense to take a break; while it isn’t covered by this simulation, your success is going to depend a lot on who is in the queue at the same time you are, so if you’re getting fed to a premade or effectively a premade twice in a row it’d be a good idea to take a break and try again with a different pool.
I know you meant as a “I made it, so can you” statement, but it shows how rather flawed the system actually is.
I bet most of the time you only got matched against players that couldnt identify and dodge the necessary skills. Its what I experienced on an account on the “easy” side of mmr.
I was thinking the same. This is the kind of comment that actually shoot the person using that argument in the foot.
The hypothetical 5%/50% misranked player might have to play upwards of 50ish matches to correct himself? And then play to raise pips?
The hypothetical 5% / 50% misrated player that you mentioned is actually at the correct rank – he is supposed to be in low ruby, and is, he’s just there with an abnormally low MMR for his rank. That player will have to play ~50 games or so to correct his MMR, at which point he’ll be at the right rank and rating. He’ll move upward along with the rising tide of players as MMR spreads out more amongst the ranks – slowly while he is underrated, more in line with how everyone else is moving once he’s corrected his MMR.
This following is just opinion but based on these simulations: A lower skilled player is more likely to make mistakes that frustrate the higher skilled player so a lot of these games are just going to be incredibly frustrating to play.
On the other note, I think I figure out why we differ, I think you’re using the percentage chance win from ELO/GLICKO (which is partially based on never having complete information) and I was using the method that we already know the true skill score since it’s a simulation and the average true skill should determine the win. I don’t know what’s more accurate? Maybe a combination of the two? But it seems to me that would account for the rest of difference in the direction of a players MMR trend.
The hypothetical 5%/50% misranked player might have to play upwards of 50ish matches to correct himself? And then play to raise pips?
The hypothetical 5% / 50% misrated player that you mentioned is actually at the correct rank – he is supposed to be in low ruby, and is, he’s just there with an abnormally low MMR for his rank. That player will have to play ~50 games or so to correct his MMR, at which point he’ll be at the right rank and rating. He’ll move upward along with the rising tide of players as MMR spreads out more amongst the ranks – slowly while he is underrated, more in line with how everyone else is moving once he’s corrected his MMR.
This following is just opinion but based on these simulations: A lower skilled player is more likely to make mistakes that frustrate the higher skilled player so a lot of these games are just going to be incredibly frustrating to play.
On the other note, I think I figure out why we differ, I think you’re using the percentage chance win from ELO/GLICKO (which is partially based on never having complete information) and I was using the method that we already know the true skill score since it’s a simulation and the average true skill should determine the win. I don’t know what’s more accurate? Maybe a combination of the two? But it seems to me that would account for the rest of difference in the direction of a players MMR trend.
The problem, as with any model, is what to do with the outliers. A model is useful to find trends and maximize probability of prediction but is often a poor tool to explain cases that are too extreme.
The hypothetical 5%/50% misranked player might have to play upwards of 50ish matches to correct himself? And then play to raise pips?
The hypothetical 5% / 50% misrated player that you mentioned is actually at the correct rank – he is supposed to be in low ruby, and is, he’s just there with an abnormally low MMR for his rank. That player will have to play ~50 games or so to correct his MMR, at which point he’ll be at the right rank and rating. He’ll move upward along with the rising tide of players as MMR spreads out more amongst the ranks – slowly while he is underrated, more in line with how everyone else is moving once he’s corrected his MMR.
This following is just opinion but based on these simulations: A lower skilled player is more likely to make mistakes that frustrate the higher skilled player so a lot of these games are just going to be incredibly frustrating to play.
On the other note, I think I figure out why we differ, I think you’re using the percentage chance win from ELO/GLICKO (which is partially based on never having complete information) and I was using the method that we already know the true skill score since it’s a simulation and the average true skill should determine the win. I don’t know what’s more accurate? Maybe a combination of the two? But it seems to me that would account for the rest of difference in the direction of a players MMR trend.
The problem, as with any model, is what to do with the outliers. A model is useful to find trends and maximize probability of prediction but is often a poor tool to explain cases that are too extreme.
And won’t outliers on both sides be the vocal minority? Or at least more likely to be?
S P E E D Starr #0 Necro NA or
I Am NeXeD awful d/D ele NA
The hypothetical 5%/50% misranked player might have to play upwards of 50ish matches to correct himself? And then play to raise pips?
The hypothetical 5% / 50% misrated player that you mentioned is actually at the correct rank – he is supposed to be in low ruby, and is, he’s just there with an abnormally low MMR for his rank. That player will have to play ~50 games or so to correct his MMR, at which point he’ll be at the right rank and rating. He’ll move upward along with the rising tide of players as MMR spreads out more amongst the ranks – slowly while he is underrated, more in line with how everyone else is moving once he’s corrected his MMR.
This following is just opinion but based on these simulations: A lower skilled player is more likely to make mistakes that frustrate the higher skilled player so a lot of these games are just going to be incredibly frustrating to play.
On the other note, I think I figure out why we differ, I think you’re using the percentage chance win from ELO/GLICKO (which is partially based on never having complete information) and I was using the method that we already know the true skill score since it’s a simulation and the average true skill should determine the win. I don’t know what’s more accurate? Maybe a combination of the two? But it seems to me that would account for the rest of difference in the direction of a players MMR trend.
The problem, as with any model, is what to do with the outliers. A model is useful to find trends and maximize probability of prediction but is often a poor tool to explain cases that are too extreme.
And won’t outliers on both sides be the vocal minority? Or at least more likely to be?
They aren’t less legitimate. Beside, I’d like to see you in the shoes of an outliers…
I rather doubt there are more than a handful outliers, especially because the longer the system runs, the more players congregate on both sides. Meaning only players that start late get to be outliers. But even they will fall to one or the other side rather quickly….
On the other note, I think I figure out why we differ, I think you’re using the percentage chance win from ELO/GLICKO (which is partially based on never having complete information) and I was using the method that we already know the true skill score since it’s a simulation and the average true skill should determine the win. I don’t know what’s more accurate? Maybe a combination of the two? But it seems to me that would account for the rest of difference in the direction of a players MMR trend.
I use an underlying, unchanging true skill value for determining who wins and loses a match – Elo / Glicko oscillate around that underlying value (or some function of that underlying value). You’re right at in reality we don’t actually know what the underlying true value is, we can only infer it from match results, which speaks to the fundamental uncertainty of MMR – but in the model, for determining which teams win, we know exactly how good they are, there’s no forced ignorance, and MMR has no bearing on that outcome – only how ratings update in response to it.
And won’t outliers on both sides be the vocal minority? Or at least more likely to be?
There’s a big difference between outliers in empirical data being analyzed – which are usually a product of unidentified cofactors (that is, something not in the model is driving the effect), and outliers in a purely simulated statistical model, which like everything else are just an artifact of the mathematical manipulations you’re using. The question in the former case is what hidden factors are we unaware of; in the latter case, what is the bug in this code that is responsible? (or, oftentimes, what was wrong with our preconception of what the results should be?)
In the case of the model I was using, players that I assigned absurd MMR ratings to stopped getting matches once things started to stabilize in a few cases. They remained problematic outliers not because they stopped converging with matches played, but because the matchmaking algorithm I threw together for this exercise only found enough substantive matches for 99.98% of the simulated players. For this quick and dirty exercise, that’s totally fine, but clearly the real matchmaking algorithm needs to be a lot more robust than my quick and dirty code.
Similarly there’s a pattern that starts to emerge after 150 games where the distribution at the top of the ladder is sparse enough that the top 5 players keep getting paired with each other because there’s literally no one else in range – if they go in a winning streak, they’ll stick together for a long time afterward until others catch up or they lose a few games. Again, I know what’s causing it, and it’s something that wouldn’t show up in the real world, just an artifact that affects the tails of my quick and dirty sim – so I don’t really care that it’s happening, it doesn’t affect the core results at all.
If A.Net found something similar in their own data (say the MMR vs rank plots) then there’s a problem that needs to be investigated, since it’s a real problem at that point. They’d have to figure out what’s going so wrong there. These simulated outliers? I know what’s happening and it doesn’t matter.
The hypothetical 5%/50% misranked player might have to play upwards of 50ish matches to correct himself? And then play to raise pips?
The hypothetical 5% / 50% misrated player that you mentioned is actually at the correct rank – he is supposed to be in low ruby, and is, he’s just there with an abnormally low MMR for his rank. That player will have to play ~50 games or so to correct his MMR, at which point he’ll be at the right rank and rating. He’ll move upward along with the rising tide of players as MMR spreads out more amongst the ranks – slowly while he is underrated, more in line with how everyone else is moving once he’s corrected his MMR.
This following is just opinion but based on these simulations: A lower skilled player is more likely to make mistakes that frustrate the higher skilled player so a lot of these games are just going to be incredibly frustrating to play.
On the other note, I think I figure out why we differ, I think you’re using the percentage chance win from ELO/GLICKO (which is partially based on never having complete information) and I was using the method that we already know the true skill score since it’s a simulation and the average true skill should determine the win. I don’t know what’s more accurate? Maybe a combination of the two? But it seems to me that would account for the rest of difference in the direction of a players MMR trend.
The problem, as with any model, is what to do with the outliers. A model is useful to find trends and maximize probability of prediction but is often a poor tool to explain cases that are too extreme.
And won’t outliers on both sides be the vocal minority? Or at least more likely to be?
They aren’t less legitimate. Beside, I’d like to see you in the shoes of an outliers…
Honestly I think I may be a bit of an outlier, hadn’t played for like a month, came back and I’ve had one ranked loss from amber to sapphire 3. I’ll let you know if it keeps going.
And if I was an outlier on the other end I can assure you I would attribute it to my own lack of knowledge and skill as opposed to blaming mmr teammates builds basically anything bUT myself.
I think I’ve learned from losing than winning…. but I understand not everyone is the same way.
S P E E D Starr #0 Necro NA or
I Am NeXeD awful d/D ele NA
The hypothetical 5%/50% misranked player might have to play upwards of 50ish matches to correct himself? And then play to raise pips?
The hypothetical 5% / 50% misrated player that you mentioned is actually at the correct rank – he is supposed to be in low ruby, and is, he’s just there with an abnormally low MMR for his rank. That player will have to play ~50 games or so to correct his MMR, at which point he’ll be at the right rank and rating. He’ll move upward along with the rising tide of players as MMR spreads out more amongst the ranks – slowly while he is underrated, more in line with how everyone else is moving once he’s corrected his MMR.
This following is just opinion but based on these simulations: A lower skilled player is more likely to make mistakes that frustrate the higher skilled player so a lot of these games are just going to be incredibly frustrating to play.
On the other note, I think I figure out why we differ, I think you’re using the percentage chance win from ELO/GLICKO (which is partially based on never having complete information) and I was using the method that we already know the true skill score since it’s a simulation and the average true skill should determine the win. I don’t know what’s more accurate? Maybe a combination of the two? But it seems to me that would account for the rest of difference in the direction of a players MMR trend.
The problem, as with any model, is what to do with the outliers. A model is useful to find trends and maximize probability of prediction but is often a poor tool to explain cases that are too extreme.
And won’t outliers on both sides be the vocal minority? Or at least more likely to be?
They aren’t less legitimate. Beside, I’d like to see you in the shoes of an outliers…
Honestly I think I may be a bit of an outlier, hadn’t played for like a month, came back and I’ve had one ranked loss from amber to sapphire 3. I’ll let you know if it keeps going.
And if I was an outlier on the other end I can assure you I would attribute it to my own lack of knowledge and skill as opposed to blaming mmr teammates builds basically anything bUT myself.
I think I’ve learned from losing than winning…. but I understand not everyone is the same way.
I assure you I know the value of losing. Failure is a great teacher. Always was, always is.
I’ve also learn to put what is mine on my shoulders and leave what is not to those to which it belong. Otherwise you will feel a lot of guilt by blaming yourself to spare others of what is rightfully theirs. If all is my fault I’ll carry it all. If it is not, I will get the part that is mine and expect others to pick theirs. Asking for that is not blaming others.
Just an update: testing has shown that in certain cases the live system will pull players from lower divisions into the match to make a team so having a low% mmr for your tier area may not prevent the system from finding worse players to compensate for the better players on your team.
OP you’re right but it seems that Anet won’t prove You this because they can’t. I’m right now in MMRHell and i just left match (totally rekt) so my teammates won’t lose any pips (i just got 1pip in diamond). And it’s true that when You have low MMR you’re getting teams like: You’re with randoms (whole team) with the same div as the opposite team (e.g. 3 Diamonds and 2 Ruby and the other team has the same div BUT in the opposite team you have 1 random diamond, 1 diamond with 1 ruby in party AND 1 diamond with 1 ruby in party too (like in screenshot) so in both teams are the same divisions (not always) as in the opposite team but You get randoms with the same div as they have (when the opposite team has premades). The MMRHell is real, I have only 2 wins in 10 matches all the time, most of the time it seems like the opposite team has bigger MMR than Your team (Loosing like 500-200 it’s not ok). This system sucks and they’re giving us sh….it that “it’s improved”.
Either way, Ensign let me know what kind of shinies you like. You did meet the criteria of the challenge. I might not agree with all the assumptions you made but I said I’d pay out for someone to find them and I will. Otherwise you’ll get random shinies.
i think you can just trust Anet and take their word that the system is based for skill and unworthy players wont be able to grind anymore unless they abuse MMR in some way (like many did in s1)
Really, then how do you explain that I had a 100+ losing game streak and got stuck at emerald tier 1 for 3 weeks, and tanked my mmr/win/loss ratio, and had to spend countless days teaching brand new players how to pvp against pro league teams of 3 and 4 while I was in solo q. At that time, people told me, after years of pvping on gw, that I was in the tier/div I belonged.
I am now 3 pips from diamond. Tell me, am I where I belong now in ruby cuz of my skill, or was I stuck in emerald tier 1 w. a humongous losing streak for weeks cuz I’m really a tier 1 emerald skill level player? Which is it, cuz it can’t be both, and my skill alone cant explain both a rise to almost diamond (which I hope to hit before end of seas) and a huge losing streak that kept me near the bottom for weeks of very frustrating and demoralizing play.
There are many posts, including this one, which clearly show the system is designed to have losses beget losses, and wins beget wins ad infinitum. To punish losing players by stacking the deck against them, is cruel. Even we assume everyone at the bottom, or suffering a losing streak deserves it, the system penalizes them further – its kinda like take all the worst people, throwing them in a pit, throwing in potentially infinitely better opponents (according to all of you naysayers) and then tying anvils on the backs of the losers and telling them to fight their way out of the pit. This is what people complain about the inherent unfairness of the coded system itself. Get a clue.