“RTL change is going to ruin our mobility”. RTL change is supposed to ruin ele’s mobility. Currently the only played thief build is burst, which is getting destroyed next patch, and there are no warrior builds that are being played at all (in tournament pvp). One of the defining factors of those two classes is their mobility, which however is not attractive enough to teams, because there is ele, that does everything better (except for burst in thief’s case). That needs to change in order for thief and warrior becoming truly viable for competitive teams, even with their upcoming buffs. Elementalist is supposed to have some mobility, and they will retain just that (don’t forget that ele still has traits that can help them gain access to fast movement, they will just have to invtest something in order to get that now). The defining quality of elementalists is still their ability to heal and deal damage + crowd control, which they still do get to keep. Their strength in those aspects does remain, and they will still be more useful in a fight than a warrior or thief will be, they are just going to have harder time getting there, which is the exact point of the change. It is true that roaming dps eles are going to get hit the most with this patch, but as it seems, the plan with “every class being able to do anything” just didn’t work out, so anet has to assign roles to every profession, and ele just received the pidgeonholing treatment other classes had for a long loooong time. All we can hope for, is that eventually build variety will work it’s way into the game once meta game is closer to being balanced with every class having it’s own defining qualities and role on teams. I am no happier than the rest of the community to see a viable build go, but if it means I can finally get to play a warrior or a thief in a tourney without being looked down upon, so be it.
would be pretty funny if they gave RTL the range of the warrior shield bash skill.
Excellent RtL nerf.
They’ve been doing things like this since GW1 by the way. They nerf based on no testing and data collection then buff it again a few months later.
You’ll see. It’s hilarious.
I d say it one more time in case i get heared by devs
RTL change should affect the skill ONLY WHEN YOU ARE IN COMBAT
Dont make me slower than a mesm pls or give me distortion and clones so i can play glass too..Im not gonna switch ele to play offencive EVER
Ok thx
Yeah, NOW you all admit “eles needed adjusting” but 2 weeks ago you claimed they were perfectly balanced. Maybe more eles should have spoken up and gave better ways to bring down ele effectiveness, instead most of ya’ll spent your time on the forums trying to convince everyone you were perfectly balanced.
And if you weren’t one of those eles, I am obviously not referring to you!
So I suggest to remove Eles, at least I don’t have to see my favour class everyday I log in but unable to play"..?
You would be unable to play an ele with rtl on 40 secs cd if you miss?
What can i say? Here’s an example of the average ele player?
just..lol..
They don’t want ele roaming apparently. Just when i though they went kitten mode with the RTL change from 15 seconds they do this. It still isnt hitting eles main issue in PvP where they are too good in team fights by stacking them.
I wouldn’t say that, they just are unhappy with the current state of ele’s being better at it than the class that’s supposed to be the most mobile.
So if ele’s want to fully utilize rtl, they’re actually going to have to use it strategically, and effectively.
And the big deal is, what again?
So if ele’s want to fully utilize rtl, they’re actually going to have to use it strategically, and effectively.
And the big deal is, what again?
There is no deal. That’s the funny part.
So if ele’s want to fully utilize rtl, they’re actually going to have to use it strategically, and effectively.
And the big deal is, what again?
There is no deal. That’s the funny part.
Only class to get penalize for it???? Just make it the same for all other class then. No big deal right? Rush will be on a 40 sec CD if it misses. Infil Arrow will cost 12 init instead of 6 if it doesn blind anyone. etc
I really think this is a prime example of developers caving in to community complaints. People are frustrated by a single spell (that is neither unique nor op) that represents a build that IS op and call foul.
The 40s cooldown is absurd, there’s no other way to put it. This nerf misses some of the major goals they need to hit with the ele; it —
1) Doesn’t promote build diversity
2) Doesn’t nerf the bunker build
3) Reduces the much-needed survivability of burst/zerker Eles
4) Reduces ele skill cap while not addressing skill floor issues
5) Deeply harms S/D mobility, forcing more players into D/D
6) Hurts the Ele in PvE
I can continue but I’d rather not.This was a very poor balancing choice, simple and plain. Here’s to hoping in seeking balance for the Elementalist ANet doesn’t destroy the profession altogether.
^
So if ele’s want to fully utilize rtl, they’re actually going to have to use it strategically, and effectively.
And the big deal is, what again?
There is no deal. That’s the funny part.
Only class to get penalize for it???? Just make it the same for all other class then. No big deal right? Rush will be on a 40 sec CD if it misses. Infil Arrow will cost 12 init instead of 6 if it doesn blind anyone. etc
You forget the part where warrior skills are affected by chills and cripples, and the part where warrior doesn’t have any spec that has the best mobility in the game, best sustain, best team fight support, decent spike damage, best disengages in the game, aoe cleanses and heals.
Should I go on?
Why are ppl complaining so much about the RTL changes? Its a positive change for the sake of actual balance, and may force people to you know, think about when they will actually use it and whether to use it for offense or defence.
So in that regard I think anet got it somewhat right, there should be more of a penalty for using it as movement/escape as opposed to offense. I don’t see how anyone can see it differently, the way the skill is at the moment is too much reward for too little risk. This change shouldn’t impact an ele player to much apart from forcing him to become smarter in skill usage, as opposed to random button mashing and switching attunements.
Also this skill makes it a bit to easy to disengage from a fight, and with the balance being in a HUGE favor for ranged vs melee damage, this change is much needed. Now they need to tone down other escape tools if they want to give melee builds a fighting chance.
So for once, I actually agree on this balance change with anet. Now how about fixing up some mesmer skills, such as moa morpha and blurred frenzy?
(edited by Psychogene.6780)
I think people are underestimating how much less effective running away with RTL will be with the range reduced from 1500 to 1200 (which is going in the patch), even if there were no other changes.
Even though I agree with the changes, I can understand why mesmers are complaining. Eles on the other hand, I don’t get it. I thought most of them realized that their survivability and combined offensive capability was OP.
Even though I agree with the changes, I can understand why mesmers are complaining. Eles on the other hand, I don’t get it. I thought most of them realized that their survivability and combined offensive capability was OP.
Bottom line: The bunker builds are the ones that are considered overpowered, and the change to RtL doesn’t affect bunkers much (because they can facetank damage), but severely reduces the survivability of non-bunkers (because they can’t facetank damage).
It’s not necessarily the end of days for non-bunkers, but they were in a bad place before, and it sure doesn’t promote build diversity.
Even though I agree with the changes, I can understand why mesmers are complaining. Eles on the other hand, I don’t get it. I thought most of them realized that their survivability and combined offensive capability was OP.
Bottom line: The bunker builds are the ones that are considered overpowered, and the change to RtL doesn’t affect bunkers much (because they can facetank damage), but severely reduces the survivability of non-bunkers (because they can’t facetank damage).
Why do you guys call them “bunker” builds. These “bunker” builds are Dps, bunker, roamer, aoe cleanse, aoe healer all in one build. You guys are being very misleading.
Bottom line: The bunker builds are the ones that are considered overpowered, and the change to RtL doesn’t affect bunkers much (because they can facetank damage), but severely reduces the survivability of non-bunkers (because they can’t facetank damage).
Why do you guys call them “bunker” builds. These “bunker” builds are Dps, bunker, roamer, aoe cleanse, aoe healer all in one build. You guys are being very misleading.
We’re talking about Cleric’s eles, right? Valkyrie’s amulet/Berserker’s jewel d/d eles are a bit much, sure, but if they were the issue it wouldn’t have been mobility that was nerfed. As far as I can tell, RtL was changed because it allowed the super tanky Cleric’s eles to zoom around SPvP maps.
I don’t use a mainhand dagger, though, so I’m not the greatest authority on the subject.
(edited by Chaosky.5276)
It is pretty funny to hear the line constantly “this doesn’t affect ele bunkers”. Which is stupid, because if your bunker can move fast enough to keep the enemy point contested and then stay there vs 2 ppl, that’s in no way disproportionately OP, right?
Wish my Necros Spectral Walk was on a 40 second CD. Which also takes up a utility slot. I’d be more worried about Thief stealing your boons.
Wish my Necros Spectral Walk was on a 40 second CD. Which also takes up a utility slot. I’d be more worried about Thief stealing your boons.
Oh and that too. Put it in short, RtL change, Signet Healing reduce, Unable to Heal while in Mistform, plus Boon Hate Mechanic being presented. All of this combine together, is it overwhelming to one specific props? That’s what make Eles on edge right now.
I think almost everyone here got a build completely erased from game…from 100 nades to dazelock thief (Like me) and we just moved on and started playing something else or even another class….you are going to get some nerfs (And not that huge like tactical strike/mesmer runes nerf that completely ruined S/D thieves for example) on a class that has been totally broken for 4+ months and you still have the impudence of whining? You lived for no risk/high reward for months and now you qq for some nerfs because they would actually make you l2p a bit for being effective? I mean…are you kittening serious? I saw ppl complaining because being able to avoid death and refull on demand going back in seconds…rinse and repeat again and again and again is considered ele’s playstyle…if you consider being broken and able to troll other classes all day (Even with bunker that as a bunker is supposed to have pretty much no mobility) as your actual playstyle it’s time to really l2p putting some skills in order to survive, like every other class already does…and if you’re not able to do so…sorry, no offence but you’ve better to go back pve/wvsw already..
(edited by Archaon.6245)
I like the changes, ppl have to invent different setups. Interesting what will become new meta. Problem at the moment is there are just a few viable builds out there. If the update would took them out, the room for diversity gets even smaller than it allrdy is.
I still prefer buffing other things instead of completely taking out builds.
To the topic: I think the nerf of rtl is reasonable and will reduce the power of cantrip-eles, being able to kite so many times. Well done Karl.
Bunker ele will still be strong even after the RTL change. They’re already bunkers, so they can take a bit more damage while trying to heal too. Sure, they’ll actually have to spread their cantrip use now, so that means less condition removal for them.
But glass eles, same hp as thieves and less armor, lose much of their mobility, and they’re the ones that need mist form while healing and the ones who really need escape options. What does this do? Push people even further away from offensive eles and even further into bunker specs.
People played glass eles?
There are some variances of glass builds out there. I don’t like the play style but some people found ways to make it effective. They will no longer be effective.
Everyone who plays an elementalist will be a bunker now. Not because they want to but because they have to. This trend of changes that the devs keep bringing will eventually make the class unplayable.
I think the main problem with ride the lightning is that it’s too accessable. You can run a bulk spec and still use it, which is completely out of line. This will be a good change if they change a trait to revert it to its old functionality so that it helps more fragile elementalists to escape.
So if ele’s want to fully utilize rtl, they’re actually going to have to use it strategically, and effectively.
And the big deal is, what again?
There is no deal. That’s the funny part.
Only class to get penalize for it???? Just make it the same for all other class then. No big deal right? Rush will be on a 40 sec CD if it misses. Infil Arrow will cost 12 init instead of 6 if it doesn blind anyone. etc
You forget the part where warrior skills are affected by chills and cripples, and the part where warrior doesn’t have any spec that has the best mobility in the game, best sustain, best team fight support, decent spike damage, best disengages in the game, aoe cleanses and heals.
Should I go on?
You forget the part where warriors skills are not affected by immob (if spec for it) and with swiftness the range is actually 1450. Also, in WvW, the warrior has some of the best combat mobility, best sustain, best team fight support, best spike damage, mulitple ways to disengages, aoe instant rez, aoe cleanses and heals.
WvW is a different animal than s/tpvp. I get it. I just hate it that balancing is based on s/tpvp which is a tiny portion of the population and no consideration is given to PvE and WvW.
So if ele’s want to fully utilize rtl, they’re actually going to have to use it strategically, and effectively.
And the big deal is, what again?
There is no deal. That’s the funny part.
Only class to get penalize for it???? Just make it the same for all other class then. No big deal right? Rush will be on a 40 sec CD if it misses. Infil Arrow will cost 12 init instead of 6 if it doesn blind anyone. etc
You forget the part where warrior skills are affected by chills and cripples, and the part where warrior doesn’t have any spec that has the best mobility in the game, best sustain, best team fight support, decent spike damage, best disengages in the game, aoe cleanses and heals.
Should I go on?
You forget the part where warriors skills are not affected by immob (if spec for it) and with swiftness the range is actually 1450. Also, in WvW, the warrior has some of the best combat mobility, best sustain, best team fight support, best spike damage, mulitple ways to disengages, aoe instant rez, aoe cleanses and heals.
WvW is a different animal than s/tpvp. I get it. I just hate it that balancing is based on s/tpvp which is a tiny portion of the population and no consideration is given to PvE and WvW.
Reason for this is mabye: 3 dedicated PvP-devs. 50 dedicated WvW/PvE devs.
Read patch notes and tell me again that PvE and WvW gets no attention.
Good one though.
RTL could of had weaknesses. Cripple and chill could have reduced its range. With collision detection they could have prevented RTL from going through objects.
Putting a 40 second cool down on an ability takes 1 person a few minutes to code and requires no testing.
Heres an ANOTHER IDEA ANET
New trait deep in air line.
“Now rtl has half the cooldown if it doesnt hit”
HERES YOUR FIX ANET.
No more bunkers abusing this kitten..No impact in all the already other up specs
You can play offencive roamer (and im not talking about 0/15/0/25/30 or similar “bunker in cover” speccs)
Also, in WvW, the warrior has some of the best combat mobility, best sustain, best team fight support, best spike damage, mulitple ways to disengages, aoe instant rez, aoe cleanses and heals.
All of the warrior’s mobility skills are effected by cripple and chill. If you want great mobility you have to run greatsword, main hand sword and bull’s charge.
The warrior has no way to sustain itself in combat.
Warrior’s are absolutely weakest when presented with a team fight.
Warrior’s spike damage is horrible. Long animations that have been nerfed so hard since the beta that you have to run every piece of zerker gear/damage boosting utilities that you are absolutely worthless if your opponent understands what dodge is.
Warrior’s do not have an instant rez. Battle Standard takes 2 seconds to cast and the range is only 600 with a diameter of 600 as well. It will not rez a downed player if that player has the condition poison on him/her because it is not a rez it is a heal type ability.
Warriors have bad heals and condi removal from shout specs this has been general knowledge for the past 8 months. Even when wearing healing power shout healing is too small. The condi removal requires you to run a specific rune set and all 3 utility slots filled with pve type utilities that are quite bad.
I understand you think these Ele changes are game breaking but I ask you to have a heart when you try to compare things to a warrior one of the worst classes in the game for the past 8 months. I know you’re mentioning wvw but the warrior only gets worse outside of spvp not better. It’s not like warriors are facing different classes alot of classes have wvw specs that are actually stronger than their spvp ones which only makes it harder for the warrior.
Funny thing is that last week all those eles were claiming rtl must not be affected by chill, cripple and cc in general cause it’s different from other movement skills…and now they all whine saying it would be fine being cc because they’re gettin 40 secs cd on miss so they can’t just spam it like midless bots (Like pretty much the rest of their skill chain) or use it like a “Get out of jail” free card everytime they’re losing a fight…
Can’t stop laughing at this…
(edited by Archaon.6245)
^ We know warriors are up in spvp..but thats not cause of out of combat mobility.
The thing this change will affect more than anything in the entire game in numbers is out of combat movement for the ele.In which case this will destroy eles in wvw much more than it ll affect them in spvp..but thats not the forum for this :P
Also this skill makes it a bit to easy to disengage from a fight, and with the balance being in a HUGE favor for ranged vs melee damage, this change is much needed. Now they need to tone down other escape tools if they want to give melee builds a fighting chance.
So much of this. I am so tired of playing Kiting wars, which will only get exacerbated by custom arenas.
People played glass eles?
Nobody does, but they pretend they do (unless they consider the valk’s build GC, lol).
People played glass eles?
Nobody does, but they pretend they do (unless they consider the valk’s build GC, lol).
People not playing a style isn’t an excuse to nerf it more. IMO, the fact almost no one plays it is highlighting the problems. It’s still fun for spvp and WvW, but offensive builds can’t actually compete with the other class’s meta builds. Of course all professions have this problem with loads of builds…
One step ahead of you Kostbabis
so Ele’s should get more viable specs after having one of the most dominating specs in this game for the past 5 months? Makes sense to me Arenanet please get on this immediately.
Heres an ANOTHER IDEA ANET
New trait deep in air line.
“Now rtl has half the cooldown if it doesnt hit”
HERES YOUR FIX ANET.
No more bunkers abusing this kitten..No impact in all the already other up specs
You can play offencive roamer (and im not talking about 0/15/0/25/30 or similar “bunker in cover” speccs)
Maybe wouldnt be such a bad idea, if they also put evade on it while in rtl and a 15s CD. Could open up some dps builds if they put it in instead of temptest defense.
People played glass eles?
Nobody does, but they pretend they do (unless they consider the valk’s build GC, lol).
I do sometimes, ‘cause it’s the only way I can get decent ranged damage.
I say “sometimes” because it’s kinda disheartening being useless when fighting more than one enemy. (You get focused, you die pretty much instantly unless you manage run away.)
I can understand having a 40s cooldown for sPvP, because of a combination of two reasons:
(1) the ability to quickly RtL from point to point in a Conquest-style map is extremely valuable; and
(2) the sPvP maps are small and action-packed enough that having to walk around is not as large a detriment to gameplay.
BUT neither of those points are really valid in either PvE in WvW. The most that can be said in favor of an increase in RtL’s CD in these modes is that mobility in WvW is still somewhat important. But even in WvW, personal mobility is far less useful than group mobility.
I think the biggest cause for complaint that people have right now is simply that one of the reasons they chose ele was because it was fun to zoom around OUT OF COMBAT in PvE zones. And even then, the Ele was still not the fastest out of combat. Warrior, ranger, and thief could still move faster out of combat — the former with their multiple low-CD leaps, and the latter with shadow shot or swiftness+HS.
Again, I fully understand that people also wanted to nerf Ele’s ability to disengage, but this change doesn’t even do that. Most eles will still have their RtL ready when they want to disengage because you shouldn’t be spamming RtL in a fight anyway. The change won’t even affect general mobility in sPvP that much, because you only use 1RtL to get from one point to the other (obviously the RtL won’t get you the whole way there, but you’d cover the remaining distance on foot before even your 20s CD would finish). And again, that makes the RtL change more sensible in sPvP.
But the main effect of this change will be to cripple Ele’s out-of-combat movement in PvE and WvW. I understand that eles can easily maintain perma-swiftness or its signet analogue, but so can just about every other class (save Mesmer, which must rely on runes). One of the things that set ele, warriors, rangers, and thieves apart was their ready access to leap/teleport skills to travel quickly around the world. Taking away this part specific, non-sPvP, characteristic away from the Ele is what bothers me.
In short, I’d either prefer a skill split (the extended cooldown only happens in sPvP) or a redesign that better addresses RtL’s disengage capability without hampering Ele’s out-of-combat mobility.
The nerf is long over-due and a good one. The first RTL nerf was a joke and had me really questioning whether A-net had the fortitude to make tough balance changes. This nerf and the Mist Form nerf have restored a little bit of my confidence.
@ResJudicator Exactly
Thats what im screaming about since ive heard the change..It might fix disengage but its TOO MUCH for overall mobility especially out of combat..
Folks here either dont understand or dont care but i hope some dev eventually responds.. as to why eles overal mobility should go down with the disengage factor.
Why should i go offencive(that is no heals for you) with ele if im gonna get ganked and get outrun by almost anything?
In spvp things wont be that bad in team play cause points are close in distance though but still..so cheap,so kittening cheap change
I think it makes just as much sense in wvw as it does in spvp. Might not go far enough in wvw.
even with nerf ele can still disengage from any fight they want
Even though I agree with the changes, I can understand why mesmers are complaining. Eles on the other hand, I don’t get it. I thought most of them realized that their survivability and combined offensive capability was OP.
Bottom line: The bunker builds are the ones that are considered overpowered, and the change to RtL doesn’t affect bunkers much (because they can facetank damage), but severely reduces the survivability of non-bunkers (because they can’t facetank damage).
It’s not necessarily the end of days for non-bunkers, but they were in a bad place before, and it sure doesn’t promote build diversity.
how does it reduce their survivability? are you escaping from the same fight with RTL twice in 20 seconds? You only need one RTL to disengage if played properly.
how does it reduce their survivability? are you escaping from the same fight with RTL twice in 20 seconds? You only need one RTL to disengage if played properly.
exactly, it only hurts our mobility and gapclosing, u can still run away just as well.
Honestly RTL on a 40 sec cooldown isnt much of a disengage especially for the glassier setups anymore. (More so for scepter main hand)
I mean come on after this patch if you were to fight an ele and they RTL’d away and you knowing full well that for 40 secs they are pretty much screwed tell me you wouldn’t go that extra 1200 and finish them.
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