What? Do you know what active defenses are? Those are wholly sufficient to prevent 1 shotting. All passive procs do are to buy time for active defenses which results in chain defenses aka very high survivability by facerolling. Which are what people are complaining about.
The difference between using 3 defensive skills in a chain vs. 2 defensive skills + 1 passive proc is huge because…?
Because you actually have to react and predict what your opponent is going to do. Not that I condone revenant’s chain defenses but the passives make it worse. Eye for an eye and crystal hibernation are among the worst traits in game in terms of encouraging skill based play.
I don’t need to react and predict to the opponent when I am chaining 3 defensive skills nor if I have a passive proc + chaining 2 defensive skills.
As you said, these people aren’t complaining about reacting, they’re complaining about chain defenses.
Yea, not like that at all, where the spectators have basically nothing to talk about because it’s SO BORING.
Also, that’s a really nice assumption there how pvp will become like wvw without passives. How did you even come up with that?
Now, the point isn’t to remove ALL passive effects, but rather the passive “save-your-butt” skills that just activate when you’re in trouble.
They’re way too forgiving for big mistakes.That doesn’t mean that getting bursted in 2 seconds is alright, but coordinated bursts shouldn’t just fail outright. Instead, the coordinated bursts shouldn’t be so spontaneous. There’s no reason to allow such big bursts from invisible, highly mobile enemies with great escape potential. They should be punished harshly for failing the burst, but shouldn’t be punished because their target just happens to have a ton of passive proc defenses that save them from lack of map awareness.
Yeah I know its boring. Maybe it isnt to specs but prob not.
It was easy actually. Its called a one push.
Which are the only passives that matter. Most of them arent about forgiveness for bad play, but to counter 2 second bursts, like I’ve already said.
Soo what are your proposed replacements for said passives you hate so much. Coordinated bursts shouldnt be so spontaneous. That makes no sense whatsoever. Lets just remove voip then, have the players all in separate rooms, oh and chat remove that as well. So sounds like youre a thief main, no surprise there. Except theyre not punished for failing the burst, hence another reason for passives. Lack of map awareness has nothing to do with trying to balance a game so that combat is interesting and doesnt last 10 minutes or 2 seconds.
Dont get me wrong, there are certain passives that are dumb and should be nerfed. To say that all passives should get removed, or only the get out of jail free cards, along with the defensive amulets shows a complete lack of understanding of how an mmo is supposed to work. Now if combo fields were more then secondary in nature or healers in this game were a thing, then by all means scrap every passive.
Anyway Im done arguing.
(edited by Stand The Wall.6987)
What? Do you know what active defenses are? Those are wholly sufficient to prevent 1 shotting. All passive procs do are to buy time for active defenses which results in chain defenses aka very high survivability by facerolling. Which are what people are complaining about.
The difference between using 3 defensive skills in a chain vs. 2 defensive skills + 1 passive proc is huge because…?
Because you actually have to react and predict what your opponent is going to do. Not that I condone revenant’s chain defenses but the passives make it worse. Eye for an eye and crystal hibernation are among the worst traits in game in terms of encouraging skill based play.
I don’t need to react and predict to the opponent when I am chaining 3 defensive skills nor if I have a passive proc + chaining 2 defensive skills.
As you said, these people aren’t complaining about reacting, they’re complaining about chain defenses.
No, the point is, both chain defenses and passive procs are an issue.
Passive procs make chaining defenses easier by buying time for players. This is on top of mindless defense chain that can be performed by anyone. We should first remove passive procs that facilitate the ease of chain defenses before working on chain defenses themselves as chain defenses are intricately interwined into gameplay from a design standpoint.
TLDR; Bad design from anet, passive procs are at the forefront. Fix those before working on others.
Yea, not like that at all, where the spectators have basically nothing to talk about because it’s SO BORING.
Also, that’s a really nice assumption there how pvp will become like wvw without passives. How did you even come up with that?
Now, the point isn’t to remove ALL passive effects, but rather the passive “save-your-butt” skills that just activate when you’re in trouble.
They’re way too forgiving for big mistakes.That doesn’t mean that getting bursted in 2 seconds is alright, but coordinated bursts shouldn’t just fail outright. Instead, the coordinated bursts shouldn’t be so spontaneous. There’s no reason to allow such big bursts from invisible, highly mobile enemies with great escape potential. They should be punished harshly for failing the burst, but shouldn’t be punished because their target just happens to have a ton of passive proc defenses that save them from lack of map awareness.
Yeah I know its boring. Maybe it isnt to specs but prob not.
It was easy actually. Its called a one push.
Which are the only passives that matter. Most of them arent about forgiveness for bad play, but to counter 2 second bursts, like I’ve already said.Soo what are your proposed replacements for said passives you hate so much. Coordinated bursts shouldnt be so spontaneous. That makes no sense whatsoever. Lets just remove voip then, have the players all in separate rooms, oh and chat remove that as well. So sounds like youre a thief main, no surprise there. Except theyre not punished for failing the burst, hence another reason for passives. Lack of map awareness has nothing to do with trying to balance a game so that combat is interesting and doesnt last 10 minutes or 2 seconds.
Dont get me wrong, there are certain passives that are dumb and should be nerfed. To say that all passives should get removed, or only the get out of jail free cards, along with the defensive amulets shows a complete lack of understanding of how an mmo is supposed to work. Now if combo fields were more then secondary in nature or healers in this game were a thing, then by all means scrap every passive.
Anyway Im done arguing.
I know you said you’re done arguing, but it seems you didn’t even read my post at all and made a few things up. I suggest you re-read it.
What? Do you know what active defenses are? Those are wholly sufficient to prevent 1 shotting. All passive procs do are to buy time for active defenses which results in chain defenses aka very high survivability by facerolling. Which are what people are complaining about.
The difference between using 3 defensive skills in a chain vs. 2 defensive skills + 1 passive proc is huge because…?
Because you actually have to react and predict what your opponent is going to do. Not that I condone revenant’s chain defenses but the passives make it worse. Eye for an eye and crystal hibernation are among the worst traits in game in terms of encouraging skill based play.
I don’t need to react and predict to the opponent when I am chaining 3 defensive skills nor if I have a passive proc + chaining 2 defensive skills.
As you said, these people aren’t complaining about reacting, they’re complaining about chain defenses.
No, the point is, both chain defenses and passive procs are an issue.
Passive procs make chaining defenses easier by buying time for players. This is on top of mindless defense chain that can be performed by anyone. We should first remove passive procs that facilitate the ease of chain defenses before working on chain defenses themselves as chain defenses are intricately interwined into gameplay from a design standpoint.
TLDR; Bad design from anet, passive procs are at the forefront. Fix those before working on others.
But it seems to me that you are complaining about passive procs because of chaining defense. After all, I don’t see anything else in your post adding why passive procs is a big problem to you.
Hardly. Seeing as you can comment this, I doubt there’s ever been an instance where you completely outplayed an enemy (revenant), and yet were unable to down him because of his passive procs saving him.
Except passives can be accounted for and played around. Heck you can play a opponents passive’s against them. (such a getting a decap on a engi by forcing his elixir S proc.)
You talk about skill, so tell me why can the attacker be skilled enough to account for the passives? Revenant’s passives proc at well defined points, if you can’t adjust to that maybe you aren’t as good as you think.
Besides Defensive passive don’t win on their own, they must be capitalized on, and played around. Bad players just get executed the moment their defensive proc ends.
Oh and if you really must know I play a necro.
Hardly. Seeing as you can comment this, I doubt there’s ever been an instance where you completely outplayed an enemy (revenant), and yet were unable to down him because of his passive procs saving him.
Except passives can be accounted for and played around. Heck you can play a opponents passive’s against them. (such a getting a decap on a engi by forcing his elixir S proc.)
You talk about skill, so tell me why can the attacker be skilled enough to account for the passives? Revenant’s passives proc at well defined points, if you can’t adjust to that maybe you aren’t as good as you think.Besides Defensive passive don’t win on their own, they must be capitalized on, and played around. Bad players just get executed the moment their defensive proc ends.
Oh and if you really must know I play a necro.
Why can’t the Engi also take into account his passive proc and get into dumb situations and NOT get punished for it?
You talk about skill, so tell me why can the attacker be skilled enough to account for the passives? Revenant’s passives proc at well defined points, if you can’t adjust to that maybe you aren’t as good as you think.
Right now the main problem with Revenant’s Soothing Bastion is the cooldown of 25 seconds. It essentially means you have to kill the Revenant twice within 50 seconds in order to get him down, since each Soothing Bastion proc will heal enough and buy enough time for the Revenant to disengage and fully recover.
Other passives, such as Guardian’s Hunter’s Determination, simply cannot be played around. Either your big CC gets nullified, or you proc it with a smaller CC, which gives the Guardian a bunch of free aegis. The best example of this is, a Thief doesn’t even want to use steal when fighting a Guardian because giving him a free Fragments of Faith is worse for the Thief than landing Steal benefits him. A passive trait made it always undesirable for a Thief to use his profession mechanic…
You talk about skill, so tell me why can the attacker be skilled enough to account for the passives? Revenant’s passives proc at well defined points, if you can’t adjust to that maybe you aren’t as good as you think.
Right now the main problem with Revenant’s Soothing Bastion is the cooldown of 25 seconds. It essentially means you have to kill the Revenant twice within 50 seconds in order to get him down, since each Soothing Bastion proc will heal enough and buy enough time for the Revenant to disengage and fully recover.
Other passives, such as Guardian’s Hunter’s Determination, simply cannot be played around. Either your big CC gets nullified, or you proc it with a smaller CC, which gives the Guardian a bunch of free aegis. The best example of this is, a Thief doesn’t even want to use steal when fighting a Guardian because giving him a free Fragments of Faith is worse for the Thief than landing Steal benefits him. A passive trait made it always undesirable for a Thief to use his profession mechanic…
But those are case-by-case problems. That’s not passive in general. What my point is that passives in general are fine. If you have a problem with a specific class’s traits you should say so rather than throwing out blanket statements.
You talk about skill, so tell me why can the attacker be skilled enough to account for the passives? Revenant’s passives proc at well defined points, if you can’t adjust to that maybe you aren’t as good as you think.
Right now the main problem with Revenant’s Soothing Bastion is the cooldown of 25 seconds. It essentially means you have to kill the Revenant twice within 50 seconds in order to get him down, since each Soothing Bastion proc will heal enough and buy enough time for the Revenant to disengage and fully recover.
Other passives, such as Guardian’s Hunter’s Determination, simply cannot be played around. Either your big CC gets nullified, or you proc it with a smaller CC, which gives the Guardian a bunch of free aegis. The best example of this is, a Thief doesn’t even want to use steal when fighting a Guardian because giving him a free Fragments of Faith is worse for the Thief than landing Steal benefits him. A passive trait made it always undesirable for a Thief to use his profession mechanic…
But those are case-by-case problems. That’s not passive in general. What my point is that passives in general are fine. If you have a problem with a specific class’s traits you should say so rather than throwing out blanket statements.
How is that not passive? You hit a certain hp % when you’re about to get rekt…then get a free shield that heals you for 4K which you can then use again right after for another 4K and pop glint heal thusly fully resetting a fight thanks to a passive % oh kitten moment trait that procs every 25 seconds? You essentially have to kill the rev within 25 seconds but a good rev can just stall by doing what I said above. Then that passive kicks in again…rinse and repeat. Yeah, no. That’s a carry without a doubt.
To illustrate my point even further, I want any rev mains defending this passive thing to duel without it…see how fast you die then.
This is just one example of passive traits carrying. There are numerous other traits on other professions.
(edited by Lettuce.2945)
I think passive dmg procs are wrong,but something like last stand for warri or endure pain at 25% at which you usually still melt through or doesnt even pop at all.. ? Rather throw in reckless dodge as an example which is a horrible pasive dmg proc that can do 3 – 4k damage just for evading.
You talk about skill, so tell me why can the attacker be skilled enough to account for the passives? Revenant’s passives proc at well defined points, if you can’t adjust to that maybe you aren’t as good as you think.
Right now the main problem with Revenant’s Soothing Bastion is the cooldown of 25 seconds. It essentially means you have to kill the Revenant twice within 50 seconds in order to get him down, since each Soothing Bastion proc will heal enough and buy enough time for the Revenant to disengage and fully recover.
Other passives, such as Guardian’s Hunter’s Determination, simply cannot be played around. Either your big CC gets nullified, or you proc it with a smaller CC, which gives the Guardian a bunch of free aegis. The best example of this is, a Thief doesn’t even want to use steal when fighting a Guardian because giving him a free Fragments of Faith is worse for the Thief than landing Steal benefits him. A passive trait made it always undesirable for a Thief to use his profession mechanic…
But those are case-by-case problems. That’s not passive in general. What my point is that passives in general are fine. If you have a problem with a specific class’s traits you should say so rather than throwing out blanket statements.
How is that not passive? You hit a certain hp % when you’re about to get rekt…then get a free shield that heals you for 4K which you can then use again right after for another 4K and pop glint heal thusly fully resetting a fight thanks to a passive % oh kitten moment trait that procs every 25 seconds? You essentially have to kill the rev within 25 seconds but a good rev can just stall by doing what I said above. Then that passive kicks in again…rinse and repeat. Yeah, no. That’s a carry without a doubt.
To illustrate my point even further, I want any rev mains defending this passive thing to duel without it…see how fast you die then.
This is just one example of passive traits carrying. There are numerous other traits on other professions.
He said, That’s not passive in general.
As in, it is not a problem overall. It seems you only have a problem with Soothing Bastion have a low cooldown for immunity. If Soothing Bastion has a 90 second cooldown, then it would not be as much as a problem.
Hence, Passive procs are a case-by-case problem.
Incorrect. Passive procs arent always bad. They add complexity and skill in many cases in fact and they add to the depth of the game.
Passive procs are skillfull because you “actively react to passives.” You can even get super-skillfull by having passive-procs reacting to passives!! SKILL!
You talk about skill, so tell me why can the attacker be skilled enough to account for the passives? Revenant’s passives proc at well defined points, if you can’t adjust to that maybe you aren’t as good as you think.
Right now the main problem with Revenant’s Soothing Bastion is the cooldown of 25 seconds. It essentially means you have to kill the Revenant twice within 50 seconds in order to get him down, since each Soothing Bastion proc will heal enough and buy enough time for the Revenant to disengage and fully recover.
Other passives, such as Guardian’s Hunter’s Determination, simply cannot be played around. Either your big CC gets nullified, or you proc it with a smaller CC, which gives the Guardian a bunch of free aegis. The best example of this is, a Thief doesn’t even want to use steal when fighting a Guardian because giving him a free Fragments of Faith is worse for the Thief than landing Steal benefits him. A passive trait made it always undesirable for a Thief to use his profession mechanic…
But those are case-by-case problems. That’s not passive in general. What my point is that passives in general are fine. If you have a problem with a specific class’s traits you should say so rather than throwing out blanket statements.
How is that not passive? You hit a certain hp % when you’re about to get rekt…then get a free shield that heals you for 4K which you can then use again right after for another 4K and pop glint heal thusly fully resetting a fight thanks to a passive % oh kitten moment trait that procs every 25 seconds? You essentially have to kill the rev within 25 seconds but a good rev can just stall by doing what I said above. Then that passive kicks in again…rinse and repeat. Yeah, no. That’s a carry without a doubt.
To illustrate my point even further, I want any rev mains defending this passive thing to duel without it…see how fast you die then.
This is just one example of passive traits carrying. There are numerous other traits on other professions.
He said, That’s not passive in general.
As in, it is not a problem overall. It seems you only have a problem with Soothing Bastion have a low cooldown for immunity. If Soothing Bastion has a 90 second cooldown, then it would not be as much as a problem.
Hence, Passive procs are a case-by-case problem.
I think you are a little confused by ‘passives’ and ‘passive procs’. Passives are like diamond skin, where you have to actively keep your health up to enjoy the benefits. Those are, for the most part, fine. Passive procs on the other hand, like eye for an eye, soothing bastion, elixer s etc, require no active play as they simply proc once you drop beneath a certain hp %. These are not fine.
You talk about skill, so tell me why can the attacker be skilled enough to account for the passives? Revenant’s passives proc at well defined points, if you can’t adjust to that maybe you aren’t as good as you think.
Right now the main problem with Revenant’s Soothing Bastion is the cooldown of 25 seconds. It essentially means you have to kill the Revenant twice within 50 seconds in order to get him down, since each Soothing Bastion proc will heal enough and buy enough time for the Revenant to disengage and fully recover.
Other passives, such as Guardian’s Hunter’s Determination, simply cannot be played around. Either your big CC gets nullified, or you proc it with a smaller CC, which gives the Guardian a bunch of free aegis. The best example of this is, a Thief doesn’t even want to use steal when fighting a Guardian because giving him a free Fragments of Faith is worse for the Thief than landing Steal benefits him. A passive trait made it always undesirable for a Thief to use his profession mechanic…
But those are case-by-case problems. That’s not passive in general. What my point is that passives in general are fine. If you have a problem with a specific class’s traits you should say so rather than throwing out blanket statements.
How is that not passive? You hit a certain hp % when you’re about to get rekt…then get a free shield that heals you for 4K which you can then use again right after for another 4K and pop glint heal thusly fully resetting a fight thanks to a passive % oh kitten moment trait that procs every 25 seconds? You essentially have to kill the rev within 25 seconds but a good rev can just stall by doing what I said above. Then that passive kicks in again…rinse and repeat. Yeah, no. That’s a carry without a doubt.
To illustrate my point even further, I want any rev mains defending this passive thing to duel without it…see how fast you die then.
This is just one example of passive traits carrying. There are numerous other traits on other professions.
He said, That’s not passive in general.
As in, it is not a problem overall. It seems you only have a problem with Soothing Bastion have a low cooldown for immunity. If Soothing Bastion has a 90 second cooldown, then it would not be as much as a problem.
Hence, Passive procs are a case-by-case problem.
I think you are a little confused by ‘passives’ and ‘passive procs’. Passives are like diamond skin, where you have to actively keep your health up to enjoy the benefits. Those are, for the most part, fine. Passive procs on the other hand, like eye for an eye, soothing bastion, elixer s etc, require no active play as they simply proc once you drop beneath a certain hp %. These are not fine.
No, I am not confused. That passive procs are a case-by-case problem because he feels 25 seconds Soothing Bastion is too low. It could be raised to 40 seconds, then the Revenant may not be as immortal to him.
But, I completely disagree with your statement that Passive procs are not fine because how you feel about them is not convincing.
You talk about skill, so tell me why can the attacker be skilled enough to account for the passives? Revenant’s passives proc at well defined points, if you can’t adjust to that maybe you aren’t as good as you think.
Right now the main problem with Revenant’s Soothing Bastion is the cooldown of 25 seconds. It essentially means you have to kill the Revenant twice within 50 seconds in order to get him down, since each Soothing Bastion proc will heal enough and buy enough time for the Revenant to disengage and fully recover.
Other passives, such as Guardian’s Hunter’s Determination, simply cannot be played around. Either your big CC gets nullified, or you proc it with a smaller CC, which gives the Guardian a bunch of free aegis. The best example of this is, a Thief doesn’t even want to use steal when fighting a Guardian because giving him a free Fragments of Faith is worse for the Thief than landing Steal benefits him. A passive trait made it always undesirable for a Thief to use his profession mechanic…
But those are case-by-case problems. That’s not passive in general. What my point is that passives in general are fine. If you have a problem with a specific class’s traits you should say so rather than throwing out blanket statements.
How is that not passive? You hit a certain hp % when you’re about to get rekt…then get a free shield that heals you for 4K which you can then use again right after for another 4K and pop glint heal thusly fully resetting a fight thanks to a passive % oh kitten moment trait that procs every 25 seconds? You essentially have to kill the rev within 25 seconds but a good rev can just stall by doing what I said above. Then that passive kicks in again…rinse and repeat. Yeah, no. That’s a carry without a doubt.
To illustrate my point even further, I want any rev mains defending this passive thing to duel without it…see how fast you die then.
This is just one example of passive traits carrying. There are numerous other traits on other professions.
He said, That’s not passive in general.
As in, it is not a problem overall. It seems you only have a problem with Soothing Bastion have a low cooldown for immunity. If Soothing Bastion has a 90 second cooldown, then it would not be as much as a problem.
Hence, Passive procs are a case-by-case problem.
I think you are a little confused by ‘passives’ and ‘passive procs’. Passives are like diamond skin, where you have to actively keep your health up to enjoy the benefits. Those are, for the most part, fine. Passive procs on the other hand, like eye for an eye, soothing bastion, elixer s etc, require no active play as they simply proc once you drop beneath a certain hp %. These are not fine.
No, I am not confused. That passive procs are a case-by-case problem because he feels 25 seconds Soothing Bastion is too low. It could be raised to 40 seconds, then the Revenant may not be as immortal to him.
But, I completely disagree with your statement that Passive procs are not fine because how you feel about them is not convincing.
Case by case basis it may be, but for the most part they are either redundant, or too good. Removing them would be good nonetheless.
Even if the cd of soothing bastion was increased, it is still poor design. If anything, it should at least be 60s, if not removed.
Anyway, your argument against passive procs is a little funny. You claim that passive procs help defend against coordinated burst (aka stealth burst), but isn’t that simply a l2p issue?
If you get bursted down from 100-0, it’s no one’s fault but your own. Blame your own lack of skill.
Moreover, coordinated burst is supposed to take you down. Nullifying the entire intention of setting up a burst meticulously because of a trait is a poor argument at best.
I agree with Reap. A player should be rewarded by reaction timing, not by passive traits procing intermittently. A perfect example is Guardian’s stunbreak + Focused Elite. Proper reaction time guarantees that you’ll never immediately get downed by a coordinated burst.
Soothing Bastion, or any proc with a threshold or rng, shouldn’t be justified by whether or not your toon can outplay it. Point of fact, it’s a passive mechanic that’s not rewarded by the player’s active, reactive, playstyle.
(edited by Saiyan.1704)
If you want rid of passive defensive procs they you should also get rid of passive offensive procs too. While you’re at it you need to adjust cast times so we have less instant cast damage in the game, human reaction times are generally 250ms so a 1/4s cast is too fast to react to as well for most people.
I would also say passives like DS is almost as bad as passive procs but at least it does offer some counter and will no longer be complete immunity.
(edited by apharma.3741)
Incorrect. Passive procs arent always bad. They add complexity and skill in many cases in fact and they add to the depth of the game.
Agree, Passives that require you to do something to proc them are good. They add depth as you can center your build or playstyle around them and be actively trying to proc them.
It kind of separates good and inexperienced players, good players try to optimize their play to utilize those procs at their full potential. Players that don’t know what they are doing just play and proc them accidentally without thinking about them.
Of course there are some passives that you can just trait and forget, those are quite boring.
Oh. Player carried by poorly designed passive traits spotted. Yeah you’re totally right. It’s definitely skillful and intentional when a player drops you to 25% hp and voila, you get a shield that heals you for 4K or an invulnerable elixir that buys time for you to recharge stealth gyro and reset the fight even further. Yeah, totally. That doesn’t carry at all. You’re absolutely right. It promotes skillful play, no doubt.
Nice sarcasm. You are wrong though dude. The passive procs are fine generally. Stop crying about it kitten . This forum is full of mindless qq
Yeah definitely mindless. I don’t know what I’m talking about at all. Wanna duel though? Pretty sure this “mindless qq’er” will kitten on you easily. You just can’t handle the truth. Look up the definition of passive. Do you even English? Passive requires nothing active. It just something that happens in specific scenarios. Just get out of here with your troll post. Stick to PvE forums.
If you’re gonna back down from my challenge, I won’t even acknowledge your posts from this point on. Just a confirmed troll.
Lol. Post of the year dude congrats. Glad to see i won the argument so you had to resort to a duel challenge. I am only a sapphire player so no doubt you would humiliate me witb your greatness. But still, no need for you to reply as you have lost the argument
You’re only sapphire and you think you know how the game should work? You’re kidding me right?
I think we can conclude this guy is a confirmed forum troll.
Without taking a stand on who is a troll an who is not. I would disagree on the notion that your ladder position means that you know more about the game. Getting to diamond by exploiting matchmaking means that you know how the game works? And even if you got to diamond or whatever with pure skill, it doesn’t mean that you know everything. Some ppl play only one class in PvP and think that they know enough about other classes and make some ridiculous statements on forums.
Some if not most ppl here are probably better players than the developers, doesn’t mean that if you win a duel with a developer you know more than them. It just means that are more skilled.
A funny sports analogy: Which one knows more, the athlete or the coach?
Of course you could argue that because the developers don’t play the game enough they can’t make the right decisions.
And I for one couldn’t care less about the ladder, at least not in it’s current state. I much rather play unranked and get equally skilled players in the match without the ladder system screwing everything up.
And not to make this completely off topic I’m glad that we have some real discussion about passive procs. In some other games I have encountered passives that activate automatically at some point or you can activate them yourself when certain requirements are met. Those are kind of combined passive and active skill in one. In GW we have separate passive and active skill and in some cases it means that you can activate same skill twice (shooting bastion = crystal hibernation, Enlargement = signet of the wild, Self-regulating defenses = elixir s). What you think, should these passives set the active skill on cooldown and vice versa? To me those passives seemed weird I was like “Whaat? I get to use this twice? does this actually work? It does? Wut?”
It’s not the stats (like celestial) that carry bad players and create a boring meta, it’s the impactful defensive passive procs that activate when an opponent successfully does something to you.
These traits are bad design and need to be removed or redesigned to make builds in PvP more skill based instead of playing themselves.
Here I will list all of these traits in the game.
Although many of them are currently weak and/or not used, they are just as bad design-wise as the ridiculously overpowered ones (like Soothing Bastion).Elementalist: Burning Fire, Tempest Defense, Earth’s Embrace, Soothing Ice, Elemental Contingency, Final Shielding, Gale Song, Imbued Melodies, Elemental Bastion
Warrior: Defy Pain, Last Stand, Shrug It Off
Ranger: Enlargement, Shared Anguish, Protective Ward
Necromancer: Reaper’s Protection, Last Grasp
Guardian: Valorous Defense, Hunter’s Determination
Thief: Last Refuge, Pain Response, Hard to Catch, Don’t Stop, (and the passive evade on reaching 50% health that Anet wants to add next patch)
Engineer: Automated Medical Response, Autodefense Bomb Dispenser, Protection Injection, Transmute, Self-Regulating Defenses, Reactive Lenses
Mesmer: Desperate Decoy, Mirror of Anguish
Revenant: Pulsating Pestilence, Eye for an Eye, Versed in Stone, Soothing Bastion
Anet, for the sake of healthy and active PvP, please remove or rework all of these traits and refrain from making more of them in the future.
+1 for this.
+1
Some passive offensive traits have no counterplay either:
Engineer: Incendiary Powder
Thief: Panic Strike
Necro: Chill of Death
These proc traits can’t be dodged because they trigger instantly on a hit.
Instead they should grant a buff to make your next attack cause these effects. If your next attack misses it’s gone.
I would remove most of the passives.
And the problem is you don’t even know if your foe has them(if they have them in their build or if they do, if it’s off-CD). They all should appear on the effects bar.
Protective ward is not just passive but op too.
Warrior: Last Stand: doesn’t even let you interrupt the warrior because stability is applied before cc(unlike any other trait)
(edited by Kicker.8203)
+1 down with passive procs.
I agree with Reap. A player should be rewarded by reaction timing, not by passive traits procing intermittently. A perfect example is Guardian’s stunbreak + Focused Elite. Proper reaction time guarantees that you’ll never immediately get downed by a coordinated burst.
Soothing Bastion, or any proc with a threshold or rng, shouldn’t be justified by whether or not your toon can outplay it. Point of fact, it’s a passive mechanic that’s not rewarded by the player’s active, reactive, playstyle.
In other words, whoever shoots first wins.
Thank god you’re not the designer.
Simple solution:
Instead of the proc, you see the trait/skill as a interact for 1 second.
Not hitting <interact key> fast enough?
Too bad, the trait is now on ICD. (maybe only 50% ICD in that case).
I agree with Reap. A player should be rewarded by reaction timing, not by passive traits procing intermittently. A perfect example is Guardian’s stunbreak + Focused Elite. Proper reaction time guarantees that you’ll never immediately get downed by a coordinated burst.
Soothing Bastion, or any proc with a threshold or rng, shouldn’t be justified by whether or not your toon can outplay it. Point of fact, it’s a passive mechanic that’s not rewarded by the player’s active, reactive, playstyle.
In other words, whoever shoots first wins.
Thank god you’re not the designer.
Wow, no one said they wanted the game to be who ever shoots first wins, that is a completely irrelevant statement and just goes to show how inept you are at trying to understand another’s point of view.
People who take this game very seriously want PvP to be something that revolves around pure skill level, unfortunately for the hardcore community the majority of people playing this game are either casual or semi-regulars. This means the game creators based on a business plan are going to create builds which would serve the majority of their player base well, leading to builds which seem fairly op due to a lot of automated traits.
Although this idea of passive traits making up for mistakes may seem nice to many of you, try to look at the other side of the coin and think about how frustrating it must be to people who have taken a long time to play and practice every class in order to learn the weakness’ of x opponent, only to find that some classes have a passive which basically has no way of being played around on many occasions. While I think its fine that anet wants to cater to their masses by providing builds which are easily playable due to little risk for reward I think it should also be done in a manner that does not punish their most loyal of fans. Its fine for a class to be easily played, its not fine for a class to be so faceroll that a noob who has no idea what hes doing beats a veteran player.
(edited by Grimreaper.5370)
Wow, no one said they wanted the game to be who ever shoots first wins,
Ok, then there is no reason to remove passive procs.
Wow, no one said they wanted the game to be who ever shoots first wins,
Ok, then there is no reason to remove passive procs.
Your analogy is flawed and you know it. But whatever, I have no interest trying to convince someone so narrow minded.
Majority of good players agree that passive procs are bad anyway, and that’s good enough for me.
I don’t mind passive defenses that are defensive, such as gain armour of earth when disabled, create a smoke bomb when disabled, break stun and gain endurance, break stun and gain stability, and transfer disabling effect to your pet. While they counter your otherwise punishment for failing to avoid the disabling effect, they are not sufficient to carry a player or have a significant effect on the outcome of a fight.
What is bad for this game, are passive defenses that punish the attacker, and can, through no skillful play, have a significant effect on the outcome of a fight, such as taunt the attacker, fear the attacker, stun the attacker, return the effect to the attacker. This isn’t restricted to traits either. I’ve always hated nightmare runes for this as well.
What’s more, is that these traits trigger even when the player does not feel the effects of the cc. If they have stability and get hit with a daze that simply removes one stack, or get hit with fear while resistance is up, they get to take full advantage of their offensive passive defense, offensively, because the attacker is now disabled and they themselves are not. This is the most broken aspect of all.
I’m not against these skills existing, but I think it could be so much better for the game that if these passives are either removed, or are modified to add additional skills to an array of skills above the utility bar where the player can actively activate them, and also keep track of their cool downs. The same thing could be done for traits activating skills automatically when striking in a certain position, because those cool downs are also difficult to keep track of.
The moment they didn’t lower Eye for an Eye’s taunt duration is the moment they confirmed to me they don’t play their own game.
Nice sarcasm. You are wrong though dude. The passive procs are fine generally. Stop crying about it kitten . This forum is full of mindless qq
can this person get finally banned or something? or is there an option to block/ignore users so you don’t have to read all the brainless stupid shlt they are flooding here?
Wow, no one said they wanted the game to be who ever shoots first wins,
Ok, then there is no reason to remove passive procs.
Your analogy is flawed and you know it. But whatever, I have no interest trying to convince someone so narrow minded.
Majority of good players agree that passive procs are bad anyway, and that’s good enough for me.
The silent majority of good players agree that passive procs are good. The vocal minority clamors that passive procs are bad. You don’t have to convince me because passive procs are not fine because it keeps the toxic one-shot meta at bay and keeps skill-less gankers from overinflating their ego that they think they’re the best.
The silent majority think they’re good players.
Don’t do it Anet, just because all this people doesn’t knew how skillful it is calculating and being aware on those passive while reacting passively against their passive. Remember that some of us play Thief; you do not like more whining.
I rather play the game in coordination and addition of precision and a little bit of timing with other individual. teamplay Arena.net teamplay.
I think passives like that are there because of massive coordinated burst. A spectator that has no gw2 xp wont be able to follow along when everyone is getting downed 1 after 1.
Honestly how much experience do you need to understand it?
“Red team just turned all its attention to Steve and blew him up!”
v
“Red team just turned all its attention to Steve and he’s saved by his passive invuln autoproc!”
They’re both easy to read.
Incorrect. Passive procs arent always bad. They add complexity and skill in many cases in fact and they add to the depth of the game.
Care to give an example Henry? :P
Wow, no one said they wanted the game to be who ever shoots first wins,
Ok, then there is no reason to remove passive procs.
Your analogy is flawed and you know it. But whatever, I have no interest trying to convince someone so narrow minded.
Majority of good players agree that passive procs are bad anyway, and that’s good enough for me.
The silent majority of good players agree that passive procs are good. The vocal minority clamors that passive procs are bad. You don’t have to convince me because passive procs are not fine because it keeps the toxic one-shot meta at bay and keeps skill-less gankers from overinflating their ego that they think they’re the best.
Lol because setting up a carefully coordinated gank is less skillfull than a passive defense proc right? #logic
Looking at you trying to justify procs like soothing bastion and elixer s is hilarious.
(edited by ReaperJr.5967)
While I will remain neutral on the effects of passives on the general health of competitive play, as I lack the expertise or information to offer more than an opinion, I do feel the need to point out a few things.
1) Passive procs can be played around, mostly. If you know a warrior is going to go invulnerable to direct damage at 25% health, don’t use up your burst when they’re at 30%. Chip them down, wait it out, and then kill them, or focus on applying conditions/let a teammate with condis worry about them.. An engineer’s elixir S proc prevents cap contribution and offensive action. And so on. Know what your opponent is likely to have at the ready (or what you’ve -seen- them with if you’ve fought before that match) and fight accordingly.
2) A lot of people here are saying that passives promote less-skilled play. Now, this may be true from the perspective of a twitch-based, reflex-focused game, which to some extent GW2 is. However, reflexes are not the only measure of skill- tactics and knowledge of the various classes should play a role in success as well. As I mentioned above, at least some of these passives can be played around or prepared for. A poor player will still typically lose a fight vs. a better one, passives or no, it may just take longer.
3) Passives prevent fights between burstier specs being ended by the first person to land a hit. Now, there’s a place for that kind of gameplay, but (and I fully acknowledge this bit is just opinion) I do not personally believe it suits an MMORPG.
That said, I will acknowledge that there are perhaps too many passive effects available to some classes, and they may have contributed to the excess of survivability in this season’s meta. Some effects of passives are potentially unfair, such as the Revenant’s “Eye for an Eye” punishing you for successfully landing CCs, but extra defenses are not unhealthy by default so long as they do not allow for near-indefinite sustain. Toughness is passive defense, should we remove that from the game? Vitality is a passive defense, should we remove that?
Toughness is passive defense, should we remove that from the game? Vitality is a passive defense, should we remove that?
Toughness is passive defense, should we remove that from the game? Vitality is a passive defense, should we remove that?
Well, they are. They’re pruning the stronger combinations of these stats from PvP.
I think it is fine to have some passive procs.
But they SHOULD follow the rule: low input, low reward. They are passive, so some of them shouldn’t be as strong as they current are.
One example would be revenant’s ‘Eye for eye’. Such long taunt duration on a passive is way too ridiculous.
Incorrect. Passive procs arent always bad. They add complexity and skill in many cases in fact and they add to the depth of the game.
Care to give an example Henry? :P
There are many examples my good sir. They make you react to the passives. I remember it used to be a skill in necro vs rangrr to wait for the passive cleanse and then load damaging condis.
snip
I couldnt agree more.
Honestly how much experience do you need to understand it?
“Red team just turned all its attention to Steve and blew him up!”
v
“Red team just turned all its attention to Steve and he’s saved by his passive invuln autoproc!”They’re both easy to read.
Thats a bit oversimplified. If I was a spectator with no gw2 xp, watching a game where everyone is using a ton of unfamiliar skills all at the same time would be overwhelming. The autoproc is obviously designed to prolong a fight so the game isnt a burst fest where everyone is getting 2 shotted. Imo this would be just as bad as the bunker meta. No counterplay, everyone sits in downed state/dead for 30% of the match. That sounds lame to me, what about you?
I think having the autoprocs are better then nothing at all. If more active defense was added, then I’m all for removing the lot of them. Stuff like Bandits Defense on thief. Low cooldown, low duration block so you can avoid the plethora of burst that will most likely be everywhere after the patch. Lastly, I doubt autoprocs will be a huge problem after the patch when the defensive amulets are removed.
I also disagree.
If you base a game purley on fast internet lines, computers and reflexes (Skill) you will long tern destroy it. There will be an elitist shrink and less and less new players joining(staying).
So a bunch of passives in each class is good for the games health even if they carry bad players. They still won´t be good enough for high tier play.
I also disagree.
If you base a game purley on fast internet lines, computers and reflexes (Skill) you will long tern destroy it. There will be an elitist shrink and less and less new players joining(staying).
So a bunch of passives in each class is good for the games health even if they carry bad players. They still won´t be good enough for high tier play.
Look at the most successful e-sport in the world: League of Legends. There are NO defensive autoprocs in that game, and NO offensive autoprocs that rely on RNG. Yet it manages to be very casual-friendly while also having an extremely high skill-cap which allows top players to play to their full potential. Each year, more people start playing League of Legends than the last. Therefore, the non-existence of defensive autoprocs does not affect how well a game can attract and retain new players.
ArenaNet has made it clear that they want Guild Wars 2 to be a true e-sport. Removing defensive autoprocs and balancing the game around active abilities is a great first step toward that goal.
Toughness is passive defense, should we remove that from the game? Vitality is a passive defense, should we remove that?
It is not a fallacy. Toughness and vitality are both means of increasing your survivability without any active play- the same as a great many of those passive procs being complained about. There are few people who would want both of these entirely removed from the game (though many I’m sure do approve of the trimming of some of the most defensive amulets from pvp). The point I had meant to make, and perhaps should have been clearer about, was that passive defenses are not inherently harmful so long as they’re kept to a manageable level and have reasonable trade off for taking (a comparably effective trait in the same bracket, loss of other stats in the case of toughness/vit).
is there any chance to have a “poll” inside a gw2 thread?
Just to know how many players like X or Y.
Passive can be either lazy or add depths to a play, it truly depends on how often and strong they are.
It should be a given that passive being as it is, it should never be able to help in any form of significant way, but should help the survival or damage output.
Some passive that requires active play to activate (Slow on interrupt, dodging removing x condis) and/or passive with ICD that others can keep track of without affecting the other player in a major way (I.E: rev’s taunt) can add depth and difficulty to a game, because it’s nothing that makes the player feel like no matter what he does he’s being countered by the I.A, while requiring mental awareness of the other classes to be able to properly interpret and circumvent.
It goes without saying that, in gw2, passive are part of the game: Sigils, runes, amulets and traits gives passive and I think it is acceptable since it doesn,t make the player feel like he’s competing against the computer or the build itself and not the other player.
Where it becomes boring and unhealthy is when passive is used in a way to support the player using them like a clutch, elevating his skill play to a level he wouldn’t be able to be without said passives, that’s when it’s becoming too much.
Skill level and difference in plays are being nibbled at by computer’s procs and behind-the-scene mechanics that are just so numerous that no one can keep track off them while helping tremendously in dealing with adversary without requiring any amount of active playstyle. It gives a feeling of superiority to players who doesn,t necessarily deserves it, while making players who can actively work at their skill level feel like no matter the effort, they just can’t compare or receive an even reward simply because their build doesn’t provide an equal clutch.
The difference between a passive offered in the form of toughness/vitality is that it needs active playstyle to be sustained and requires the player to actively reacts in order to benefit properly from what the builds provide, whereas passive such as the taunt doesn’t requires anything beside input from the enemy to activate itself and works in a way completely opposite of what is healthy. Instead of helping the player, yet requiring him to actively support what he was provided with (a given/taken sort of “relationship”) it works completely on its own, regardless of the player’s own skill level and input, offering 100% of what is possible and triggering against the enemy regardless of how well the player with the passive actively plays, and that is just toxic when you want to give people the impression they can actively progress through the game.
(edited by Pepsi.8907)
@Pepsi.8907 thank you for that comment. Agree 100%.
+1
totally agree too ( though was what yoy TS meant. You didn’t talk about other passives, which modify skills, cause changing the gameplay by choice is ok, am i right? ).
Also, random sigils should be gone too ( 50% chance on crit, which is another %, so RNG over RNG, to proc X extra damage ). Something like Every X seconds, your next attack deal X extra damage. Flat passive, no RNG, seems fine.
@Pepsi.8907
Agree. That is the exact point I was trying to make but didn’t articulate it this well. Ppl mix up a lot of things in this thread, some say that 99% of passives are cancer, others say that passives that require active playstyle are not passives but active passives, then there are static passives that just are there, and then there are passive proc passives that you have no control over. Ppl shouldn’t mix all those thing up and say that they all should be removed.
Anyway, your post has pretty much everything that needs to be said about passives, well written.
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