Guild Wars 2

How would replacing burning with torment not make sense? Neither scale with power. Both scale with condition damage. In fact, three stacks of torment do about the same damage on a moving target as burning, regardless of condition damage. (I recommend looking up how abilities and conditions scale in this game if this seems like a wrong claim to you.)

It would obviously be a nerf to coverage, but that’s the point. Ncromancers are currently applying too many conditions in one or two attacks. Throw in Terror and the damage is unmanageable.

By the way, Close to Death is objectively better for power builds than Dhuumfire. It’s way more DPS and burst. It’s not even close.

Anyway, I agree with the people questioning the buffs to fears. I think fear is literally the last aspect of the class that needed a buff.

My overall suggestions:

Change Dhuumfire to apply three stacks of torment for four seconds instead of burning. Keep the 10-second inner cooldown.

Switch Terror and Withering Precision in the trait line. Nerf Terror by 10 percent to 20 percent.

Make Doom’s fear last 1 second default no matter the range.

Make Spectral Wall apply three stacks of torment instead of fear.

Lopez.7369:

How would replacing burning with torment not make sense? Neither scale with power. Both scale with condition damage. In fact, three stacks of torment do about the same damage on a moving target as burning, regardless of condition damage. (I recommend looking up how abilities and conditions scale in this game if this seems like a wrong claim to you.)

It would obviously be a nerf to coverage, but that’s the point. Ncromancers are currently applying too many conditions in one or two attacks. Throw in Terror and the damage is unmanageable.

By the way, Close to Death is objectively better for power builds than Dhuumfire. It’s way more DPS and burst. It’s not even close.

Anyway, I agree with the people questioning the buffs to fears. I think fear is literally the last aspect of the class that needed a buff.

My overall suggestions:

Change Dhuumfire to apply three stacks of torment for four seconds instead of burning. Keep the 10-second inner cooldown.

Switch Terror and Withering Precision in the trait line. Nerf Terror by 10 percent to 20 percent.

Make Doom’s fear last 1 second default no matter the range.

Make Spectral Wall apply three stacks of torment instead of fear.

Its been 3 days since the change relax people need to adjust strats and the meta needs to reestablish then we will see what is OP

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Hardly taking credit. Still get stomped a ton. I still suck a ton. But all I am saying it is a lot easier to contribute in solo q since the patch. Too easy perhaps.

Be aware that part of this is the current map in rotation too. Temple is and has been a strong map for Necro in particular since introduction. I’ll bet that you aren’t going to hard carry matches on Foefire or Khylo the same way (although Neco might be able to solo LordGank a whole base in under 60s now).

Big balance patches shake things up. The early returns suggest that there may have been an over buff, but Necromancer probably had the most and most impactful changes of any class and it is going to force a major shift in the meta. This won’t happen in the first 72 hours, especially with such a small tPvP population. Give it a couple weeks and we’ll see where it lands.

True. The map matters. And legacy is obviously awful for necros.

That’s not what I said. There are plenty of great necromancers saying the class is too strong right now. I like to think I’m one of them.

But if someone is below 70 percentile, I’m not sure he’s fit to declare his class “so freaking overpowered.” At that level, individual skill plays a much bigger role than class mechanics.

Punked.8263:

vicious.5683:

Lordrosicky.5813:

But all I am saying it is a lot easier to contribute in solo q since the patch. Too easy perhaps.

It’s easier ’cause necros were under par.
Now necros can contribute as effectively as other classes like mesmers, guardians and eles, thieves, etc.

Necros now can (not in a single build):
-put as much condi pressure as engies.
-burst as much fast as thieves with same survivability
-do as much AoE damage as mesmers

Necros have better Fears than anyone else, but this is natural. We were going to be the only class with fear in the beginning.

Remember necros have the longest casting times. What are ppl doing while necro is casting all their spells?

Running in fear from the rest necros in enemy team

necros have just 1 targeted fear, and you have to be melee range to be more effective than before patch. You have to be in DS, so you have to build LF beforehand.

also, have 2 ground targeted fears, so when you see a necro with a staff, get ready to dodge. It’s easier to not walk into the wall than dodge the mark, but whatever.
learn animations of spectral wall and mark of doom. Good luck with asura necros though.

Ppl need to cry less and l2p more.

I main a necro and I’m not immune to fears from other necros, but you don’t see me crying my eyes out for nerfs.

Honestly, Dhuumfire makes no sense to me.

Top priorities before the patch were:
1 – reliable escapes and mobility to roam or survivability to defend one point.
2 – the ability to do sustained damage by covering our bleed stacks.

Instead, they have effectively made Necromancer into Engineer with Burning on crit.

Assuming Necromancer will now run Rabid’s amulet, we have even less lifeforce / defenses and rely solely on raw damage output and triple fears in fights.

Lopez.7369:

That’s not what I said. There are plenty of great necromancers saying the class is too strong right now. I like to think I’m one of them.

But if someone is below 70 percentile, I’m not sure he’s fit to declare his class “so freaking overpowered.” At that level, individual skill plays a much bigger role than class mechanics.

Why so? The game should be balanced at all levels and be fun for all levels. Even those like me who suck deserve to have a fun balanced game. Just like the mega pros like you deserve the same.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Lopez.7369:

That’s not what I said. There are plenty of great necromancers saying the class is too strong right now. I like to think I’m one of them.

But if someone is below 70 percentile, I’m not sure he’s fit to declare his class “so freaking overpowered.” At that level, individual skill plays a much bigger role than class mechanics.

Why so? The game should be balanced at all levels and be fun for all levels. Even those like me who suck deserve to have a fun balanced game. Just like the mega pros like you deserve the same.

You are the person who said dreathshroud 5 was as good as the ranger elite skill the root one. No one can take you serious. Also its been 3 days since the patch lol dont you think its a little early for all this qq?

maybe you should just get a warrior to run shake it off for your group, that would totally counter necro.

vicious.5683:

Punked.8263:

vicious.5683:

Lordrosicky.5813:

But all I am saying it is a lot easier to contribute in solo q since the patch. Too easy perhaps.

It’s easier ’cause necros were under par.
Now necros can contribute as effectively as other classes like mesmers, guardians and eles, thieves, etc.

Necros now can (not in a single build):
-put as much condi pressure as engies.
-burst as much fast as thieves with same survivability
-do as much AoE damage as mesmers

Necros have better Fears than anyone else, but this is natural. We were going to be the only class with fear in the beginning.

Remember necros have the longest casting times. What are ppl doing while necro is casting all their spells?

Running in fear from the rest necros in enemy team

necros have just 1 targeted fear, and you have to be melee range to be more effective than before patch. You have to be in DS, so you have to build LF beforehand.

also, have 2 ground targeted fears, so when you see a necro with a staff, get ready to dodge. It’s easier to not walk into the wall than dodge the mark, but whatever.
learn animations of spectral wall and mark of doom. Good luck with asura necros though.

Ppl need to cry less and l2p more.

I main a necro and I’m not immune to fears from other necros, but you don’t see me crying my eyes out for nerfs.

That may be cuz i’ve never seen any1 crying to nerf his main class. Anyway stop with this stupid “l2p”. We all know that necros and mesmers are OP this patch it’s just the ones who have use of it blame the rest that they can’t play. Problem with ppl is they support what they like and it’s just a game so focus on everything and help the devs with feedback so the game will be balanced and enjoyable for every1. And yes once again Necros are OP now, there are many things that are not right and need to be touched, modified and we will complain as long as they are being left like that. I’m paying for that service and i want to have the best experience. Lot of ppl do and if they don’t change that a lot of us will stop using the service → stop paying. And they can balance the game it just needs lot of tests and time. It won’t be 100% balance but at least the difference wont be that big. I’m not crying for my main, i’m crying for all the classes, i want balance – to play warrior, guardian. ranger, thief, mesmer, necro, engineer, elementalist and be able to fight on an equal level with each of it.

Lopez.7369:

That’s not what I said. There are plenty of great necromancers saying the class is too strong right now. I like to think I’m one of them.

But if someone is below 70 percentile, I’m not sure he’s fit to declare his class “so freaking overpowered.” At that level, individual skill plays a much bigger role than class mechanics.

Balance just means something different at lower skill levels, but it isn’t irrelevant. The top tier players are comparing the relative strengths of various builds played near the skill cap where the rest of the population are comparing relative strengths at some percentage of the skill cap that is substantially lower.

While it is more critical to balance at/near skill cap the state of balance in lower skilled play cannot be ignored, because it would put the game in a state of “un-funness” for the majority of the population who will never play at/near the skill cap for various reasons. If these lower skilled players aren’t having fun, then they aren’t playing the game and no one is spectating the top tier players. When this happens population shrinks and the game dies.

That is why the perceptions of “lower tier” PvP players are relevant. Though you are spot on that the variance in skill level can be a major contributing factor in PERCIEVED imbalance where none or only a little bit exists.

Seriously though its been 3 days this would happen with any class. Any class that gets a buff like this is going to see a massive influx in the meta. You just have to wait and adapt a bit.
My ele i took earth Armour cleasning fire and mist form to counter all the condis
MY mesmer took arcane thievery and null field and portal sure.
My necro i stoped running condi damage and bunker wells and been doing amazing with it
My Gaurdian well i have always ran shout build so i have been fine
MY warrior running shouts and mace now cces help alot against necros
Changes happen just try to counter it until the meta stabilizes I know for a fact if warriors got a massive buff this thread would be about how op they are. Just adapt for now and see what happens

Punked.8263:

vicious.5683:

Punked.8263:

vicious.5683:

Lordrosicky.5813:

But all I am saying it is a lot easier to contribute in solo q since the patch. Too easy perhaps.

It’s easier ’cause necros were under par.
Now necros can contribute as effectively as other classes like mesmers, guardians and eles, thieves, etc.

Necros now can (not in a single build):
-put as much condi pressure as engies.
-burst as much fast as thieves with same survivability
-do as much AoE damage as mesmers

Necros have better Fears than anyone else, but this is natural. We were going to be the only class with fear in the beginning.

Remember necros have the longest casting times. What are ppl doing while necro is casting all their spells?

Running in fear from the rest necros in enemy team

necros have just 1 targeted fear, and you have to be melee range to be more effective than before patch. You have to be in DS, so you have to build LF beforehand.

also, have 2 ground targeted fears, so when you see a necro with a staff, get ready to dodge. It’s easier to not walk into the wall than dodge the mark, but whatever.
learn animations of spectral wall and mark of doom. Good luck with asura necros though.

Ppl need to cry less and l2p more.

I main a necro and I’m not immune to fears from other necros, but you don’t see me crying my eyes out for nerfs.

That may be cuz i’ve never seen any1 crying to nerf his main class. Anyway stop with this stupid “l2p”. We all know that necros and mesmers are OP this patch it’s just the ones who have use of it blame the rest that they can’t play. Problem with ppl is they support what they like and it’s just a game so focus on everything and help the devs with feedback so the game will be balanced and enjoyable for every1. And yes once again Necros are OP now, there are many things that are not right and need to be touched, modified and we will complain as long as they are being left like that. I’m paying for that service and i want to have the best experience. Lot of ppl do and if they don’t change that a lot of us will stop using the service -> stop paying. And they can balance the game it just needs lot of tests and time. It won’t be 100% balance but at least the difference wont be that big. I’m not crying for my main, i’m crying for all the classes, i want balance – to play warrior, guardian. ranger, thief, mesmer, necro, engineer, elementalist and be able to fight on an equal level with each of it.

Thieves and Mesmers are still OP, Warriors have ever been OP (just the fact that conditions became emproved lately and the fact people start to understand on how to counter them make people think they’re weak…:S), but people forgot it..
We as Necromancer players sucked and had hard times for 10 months since now (we are paying too) and now that we have some fun, people starts claiming weird things.
If you claim some balance, ask nerfs for classes which run full Berserk, bishot players and have more surv than a Necromancer.

Wake up please.

Punked.8263:

…And yes once again Necros are OP now, there are many things that are not right and need to be touched, modified and we will complain as long as they are being left like that.

No matter how much you complain about “necros ar soooo OP. Nerf it, nerf it, plssssss!!!!11!!” it won’t happen. So you learn how to counter necros or you’d better run when you see one.

Have you tried to modify your build? did you roll a necro to understand their abilities and weak spots? I’m sure you haven’t.

Derps.7421:

Seriously though its been 3 days this would happen with any class. Any class that gets a buff like this is going to see a massive influx in the meta. You just have to wait and adapt a bit.
My ele i took earth Armour cleasning fire and mist form to counter all the condis
MY mesmer took arcane thievery and null field and portal sure.
My necro i stoped running condi damage and bunker wells and been doing amazing with it
My Gaurdian well i have always ran shout build so i have been fine
MY warrior running shouts and mace now cces help alot against necros
Changes happen just try to counter it until the meta stabilizes I know for a fact if warriors got a massive buff this thread would be about how op they are. Just adapt for now and see what happens

Flawless logic ^^….it’s sad this sound logic doesn’t really click for the majority

vicious.5683:

Punked.8263:

…And yes once again Necros are OP now, there are many things that are not right and need to be touched, modified and we will complain as long as they are being left like that.

No matter how much you complain about “necros ar soooo OP. Nerf it, nerf it, plssssss!!!!11!!” it won’t happen. So you learn how to counter necros or you’d better run when you see one.

Have you tried to modify your build? did you roll a necro to understand their abilities and weak spots? I’m sure you haven’t.

Actually i did both necro and mesmer. Around hour with necro and i was in top 2 each match. So without any skills and exp on the class i can say it’s OP now. Just don’t waste it man. Like u complained a while ago for thieves ppl now do for necros. And actually it will happen sooner or later.

Cheers

Punked.8263:

vicious.5683:

Punked.8263:

…And yes once again Necros are OP now, there are many things that are not right and need to be touched, modified and we will complain as long as they are being left like that.

No matter how much you complain about “necros ar soooo OP. Nerf it, nerf it, plssssss!!!!11!!” it won’t happen. So you learn how to counter necros or you’d better run when you see one.

Have you tried to modify your build? did you roll a necro to understand their abilities and weak spots? I’m sure you haven’t.

Actually i did both necro and mesmer. Around hour with necro and i was in top 2 each match. So without any skills and exp on the class i can say it’s OP now. Just don’t waste it man. Like u complained a while ago for thieves ppl now do for necros. And actually it will happen sooner or later.

Cheers

Except people know how to deal with mesmer. Necromancers was buffed since what? 3 days? Seriously, give it some time.

Today I was playing with my Necro.
I got chain CC-ed by an hammer warrior. Used my stunbreaker when the cooldown allowed me (Well of Power).

My HP bar melted in about 4-5 seconds, I wasn’t even able to build enough life force to fear them away.
Do I have to start complaining about hammer warriors being OP and that they should be nerfed?

What if I met a Mesmer and I got bursted down while I was a Moa?

I think the issue here is the amount of condition application vs. condition cleanse…. Before the patch necros had poison weakness cripple chill vulnerability bleed immob blind and fear. They pretty much had everything but burn and now that they do (plus more reliable access to all their other conditions) 1v1 classes have to trait and bring utility specifically for condition cleanse (more so than before.)

I have heard people say that when one class/spec forces an entire team to play differently it is too strong. Right now a bunker guard can burn all their cooldowns to clear necro conditions only to have them reapplied and no way to clear them.

Either buff other classes abilities to cleanse conditions (warrior/mesmer/engi) or tone down necros (engis) ability to constantly apply conditions and give them better escape mechanics if a fight isn’t working out for them.

sorrow.2364:

Today I was playing with my Necro.
I got chain CC-ed by an hammer warrior. Used my stunbreaker when the cooldown allowed me (Well of Power).

My HP bar melted in about 4-5 seconds, I wasn’t even able to build enough life force to fear them away.
Do I have to start complaining about hammer warriors being OP and that they should be nerfed?

What if I met a Mesmer and I got bursted down while I was a Moa?

The minute something differs from the norm or causes people to think outside of their current comfortable realm – they will scream for nerfs.

The patch is not old enough yet to decide what course of action IF ANY is needed.

The necro was such a non factor before (since it truly did require a team to be built around them for viability and that didn’t happen often) that people are over reacting to having to actually pay attention to necros now.

I suggest those raging take a deep breath – go outside and rethink their current strategies when facing this class now. While necros are indeed strong as it stands now I have seen and found multiple counters to everything they are currently capable of.

But, I see the problem some people have is simply trying to play this game as a 1v1 setting instead of the group combat setting which it was balanced around.

the problem is people get too attached to builds. when there’s large sweeping changes such as occurred in this last patch people want to hold on to their previous build because they liked it/thought it was powerful/were comfortable playing with it. then they get instagibbed because other people are running new classes/builds/etc. that they’re not used to accounting for with their old builds/playstyles that they’d oh so love to continue playing. hence the calls for “NERF IT!!111”

We’ve gone through this before when Necros brought their well bombs and the whole team had to protect them, and everyone will remember that stun and burst exists in the game and will focus the Necro mercilessly a the start of every engagement and then teams will get tired of babysitting them and switch their comps to something that counters. This is just version 2.0.

It’s funny how everyone keeps on talking about damage nerf, but what about survivability? What about lack of vigor? What about lack of stability?

ANet said that they don’t want necros to be mobile too. So, you got a class with no survivability, low access to stun breakers, and without mobility, that also has high damage via conditions and team utility.

Nerf damage, and we are in the beginning, where no team will take a necro, because there are professions that can do everything better than him.

@Xeph, and what’s wrong with having to be focused? Isn’t that true with all professions, and all builds that have low survivability and high damage? In every single game, you got balanced builds, those hard to kill, and those doing a lot of damage, but with low survivability. The problem is, necro pre patch was that third profession, only without survivability.

Also, what makes it so op now? High access to fear? Burning? Torment? All of this combined?

Guess what, if you count that you pretty much can’t convert stability reliably anymore, which means you won’t be able to stop stomps, and you have 1 fear less, and that a lot of the ppl aren’t running Spectral Wall because it’s very easy to counter, and has quite short duration too, we are left with 1 fear less. Burning is adding to a damage, and that’s what necros have always needed. Better damage, because it was so low with all the condi removal going around. Torment isn’t doing too much to be honest, as it isn’t doing much damage unless coupled with fear and epidemic.

Bear in mind that necros that are taking burning can’t get 100% fear duration, so it’s even lower than pre patch.

Wait for the meta to stabilize, and we shall see how it all works out.

Kryshade.6075:

FEARS AND TERROR WERE NOT BUFFED IN THIS PATCH. FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY PLEASE REALIZE THIS PEOPLE!

/facepalm

Fear dura went up 30% from what I heard, correct me if I’m wrong.

It’s funny though, for the last year I have never been hit by so many back to back fears by a single Necro until this patch, I swear no lie I went from 100-0 in a fear spam and I have 29k health on my Warrior, this happen to me more then once on all my characters.

Warjin.8942:

Kryshade.6075:

FEARS AND TERROR WERE NOT BUFFED IN THIS PATCH. FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY PLEASE REALIZE THIS PEOPLE!

/facepalm

Fear dura went up 30% from what I heard, correct me if I’m wrong.

It’s funny though, for the last year I have never been hit by so many back to back fears by a single Necro until this patch, I swear no lie I went from 100-0 in a fear spam and I have 29k health on my Warrior, this happen to me more then once on all my characters.

Just curious – During the time of the above alleged incident what was your team doing?

Standing there watching you die? Beating on a target running away? Leaving you to fight the necro 1v1? Or perhaps going to capture a point instead of cleansing you?

What were you doing? Mashing keys aimlessly? Went afk out to have a smoke?

I’m sure you see what I’m getting at here.

Everything the necro has is easily countered once you understand the class. The problem we have now is people basically ignored conditions and necros and now since they can’t they are easily confused.

Warjin.8942:

Fear dura went up 30% from what I heard, correct me if I’m wrong.

You are wrong. The only duration of fear that was increased in the patch was the .5 secs added to Doom (the Deathshroud fear). Unless very specific traits, runes and sigils are taken this still results in a 2 sec fear ( I haven’t tried to squeak out a 3 sec fear using all of the above but honestly the trade off wouldn’t be worth it)

I’ve been repeatedly making the attempt to educate people that fear in no way received a buff (unless you count the above but again, for 99% of builds it doesn’t affect the damage fear does regardless). What necros got was a utility skill that allowed for one more fear if someone should run through spectral wall.

While I personally love spectral wall it is easy to avoid, has a very short duration (5 secs) and is negated by stability. So while it is nice, it’s not game changing in any sense.

People are freaking out simply because the number of necros that are now out there now. I will admit that the class stacking is absurd. The issue isn’t with the buffs or necros now being OP. What people are seeing is that a class that was previously under-powered and an easy kill is now on par with the other classes. This means the meta has been shaken up because there is suddenly a new contender to compete with eles, mesmers, rangers, guardians, engis and thieves. (Sorry warriors!).

Warjin.8942:

Kryshade.6075:

FEARS AND TERROR WERE NOT BUFFED IN THIS PATCH. FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY PLEASE REALIZE THIS PEOPLE!

/facepalm

Fear dura went up 30% from what I heard, correct me if I’m wrong.

It’s funny though, for the last year I have never been hit by so many back to back fears by a single Necro until this patch, I swear no lie I went from 100-0 in a fear spam and I have 29k health on my Warrior, this happen to me more then once on all my characters.

Put 20pts into Defense for Last Stand and you’ll never have to deal with it again. Or you could just stun break the Fear yourself and not eat the damage. Necros have nothing else that requires a stun break so no need to try and hold on to it.

hackks.3687:

Warjin.8942:

Kryshade.6075:

FEARS AND TERROR WERE NOT BUFFED IN THIS PATCH. FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY PLEASE REALIZE THIS PEOPLE!

/facepalm

Fear dura went up 30% from what I heard, correct me if I’m wrong.

It’s funny though, for the last year I have never been hit by so many back to back fears by a single Necro until this patch, I swear no lie I went from 100-0 in a fear spam and I have 29k health on my Warrior, this happen to me more then once on all my characters.

Put 20pts into Defense for Last Stand and you’ll never have to deal with it again. Or you could just stun break the Fear yourself and not eat the damage. Necros have nothing else that requires a stun break so no need to try and hold on to it.

And whala – look at that.

People are already posting counters to said necros to help out those less fortunate in the strategy department.

Kryshade.6075:

Warjin.8942:

Fear dura went up 30% from what I heard, correct me if I’m wrong.

You are wrong. The only duration of fear that was increased in the patch was the .5 secs added to Doom (the Deathshroud fear). Unless very specific traits, runes and sigils are taken this still results in a 2 sec fear ( I haven’t tried to squeak out a 3 sec fear using all of the above but honestly the trade off wouldn’t be worth it)

He isn’t exactly wrong, but he isn’t right either. DS3 is now a conditional (range) 1.5s Fear which is 33% more of the current duration than the previous. Technically the duration of that specific skill was buffed 50% (1s x 1.50 =1.5s).

Add that to an additional source of Fear in S. Wall and we are definitely talking about a direct buff to Terrormancers.

As far as testing 100% fear durations is concerned… No need to test. It works. In tPvP a full Terror duration build that gives up the burning access is still deadly. If you don’t believe it, then see for yourself. Even if you fall just short of 100% a full terror build with Nightmare Runes and Reaper’s protection maximizing sources is absolutely a force to be reckoned with.

Poplolita.2638:

Punked.8263:

vicious.5683:

Punked.8263:

…And yes once again Necros are OP now, there are many things that are not right and need to be touched, modified and we will complain as long as they are being left like that.

No matter how much you complain about “necros ar soooo OP. Nerf it, nerf it, plssssss!!!!11!!” it won’t happen. So you learn how to counter necros or you’d better run when you see one.

Have you tried to modify your build? did you roll a necro to understand their abilities and weak spots? I’m sure you haven’t.

Actually i did both necro and mesmer. Around hour with necro and i was in top 2 each match. So without any skills and exp on the class i can say it’s OP now. Just don’t waste it man. Like u complained a while ago for thieves ppl now do for necros. And actually it will happen sooner or later.

Cheers

Except people know how to deal with mesmer. Necromancers was buffed since what? 3 days? Seriously, give it some time.

Tnx Poplolita.
Besides, going into hot join doesn’t prove anything.
Try tpvp and keep necro if you like it. Nothing is gonna change any time soon.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Lopez.7369:

That’s not what I said. There are plenty of great necromancers saying the class is too strong right now. I like to think I’m one of them.

But if someone is below 70 percentile, I’m not sure he’s fit to declare his class “so freaking overpowered.” At that level, individual skill plays a much bigger role than class mechanics.

Balance just means something different at lower skill levels, but it isn’t irrelevant. The top tier players are comparing the relative strengths of various builds played near the skill cap where the rest of the population are comparing relative strengths at some percentage of the skill cap that is substantially lower.

While it is more critical to balance at/near skill cap the state of balance in lower skilled play cannot be ignored, because it would put the game in a state of “un-funness” for the majority of the population who will never play at/near the skill cap for various reasons. If these lower skilled players aren’t having fun, then they aren’t playing the game and no one is spectating the top tier players. When this happens population shrinks and the game dies.

That is why the perceptions of “lower tier” PvP players are relevant. Though you are spot on that the variance in skill level can be a major contributing factor in PERCIEVED imbalance where none or only a little bit exists.

That last paragraph is my main point. I’m OK with nerf aimed at balancing lower levels if there are proper buffs to outweigh the changes at higher tiers of play. I’m just saying that it’s really weird for poorly ranked players to declare a class faceroll and extremely overpowered when these same players don’t and can’t have a full grasp on the metagame.

Stof.9584:

Honestly, Dhuumfire makes no sense to me.

Top priorities before the patch were:
1 – reliable escapes and mobility to roam or survivability to defend one point.
2 – the ability to do sustained damage by covering our bleed stacks.

Instead, they have effectively made Necromancer into Engineer with Burning on crit.

Assuming Necromancer will now run Rabid’s amulet, we have even less lifeforce / defenses and rely solely on raw damage output and triple fears in fights.

You explained why Dhuumfire was added in the No. 2 priority you listed. The only options for addressing No. 2 were burning and torment. For whatever reason, ArenaNet took both.

Lopez.7369:

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Lopez.7369:

That’s not what I said. There are plenty of great necromancers saying the class is too strong right now. I like to think I’m one of them.

But if someone is below 70 percentile, I’m not sure he’s fit to declare his class “so freaking overpowered.” At that level, individual skill plays a much bigger role than class mechanics.

Balance just means something different at lower skill levels, but it isn’t irrelevant. The top tier players are comparing the relative strengths of various builds played near the skill cap where the rest of the population are comparing relative strengths at some percentage of the skill cap that is substantially lower.

While it is more critical to balance at/near skill cap the state of balance in lower skilled play cannot be ignored, because it would put the game in a state of “un-funness” for the majority of the population who will never play at/near the skill cap for various reasons. If these lower skilled players aren’t having fun, then they aren’t playing the game and no one is spectating the top tier players. When this happens population shrinks and the game dies.

That is why the perceptions of “lower tier” PvP players are relevant. Though you are spot on that the variance in skill level can be a major contributing factor in PERCIEVED imbalance where none or only a little bit exists.

That last paragraph is my main point. I’m OK with nerf aimed at balancing lower levels if there are proper buffs to outweigh the changes at higher tiers of play. I’m just saying that it’s really weird for poorly ranked players to declare a class faceroll and extremely overpowered when these same players don’t and can’t have a full grasp on the metagame.

Really. You judged us on rank. So I decided to run in a team just for a few hours. Pretty easy to get up from 95% to on the leaderboard. So now can I make comments?

Seriously. Get a grip of yourself. Rank means nothing.

Lopez.7369:

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Lopez.7369:

That’s not what I said. There are plenty of great necromancers saying the class is too strong right now. I like to think I’m one of them.

But if someone is below 70 percentile, I’m not sure he’s fit to declare his class “so freaking overpowered.” At that level, individual skill plays a much bigger role than class mechanics.

Balance just means something different at lower skill levels, but it isn’t irrelevant. The top tier players are comparing the relative strengths of various builds played near the skill cap where the rest of the population are comparing relative strengths at some percentage of the skill cap that is substantially lower.

While it is more critical to balance at/near skill cap the state of balance in lower skilled play cannot be ignored, because it would put the game in a state of “un-funness” for the majority of the population who will never play at/near the skill cap for various reasons. If these lower skilled players aren’t having fun, then they aren’t playing the game and no one is spectating the top tier players. When this happens population shrinks and the game dies.

That is why the perceptions of “lower tier” PvP players are relevant. Though you are spot on that the variance in skill level can be a major contributing factor in PERCIEVED imbalance where none or only a little bit exists.

That last paragraph is my main point. I’m OK with nerf aimed at balancing lower levels if there are proper buffs to outweigh the changes at higher tiers of play. I’m just saying that it’s really weird for poorly ranked players to declare a class faceroll and extremely overpowered when these same players don’t and can’t have a full grasp on the metagame.

Alot of players don’t have the time to get on a dedicated team in order to increase their ranking on the leader board. Also a lot of people on the leader boards don’t have very many games under their belt which sort of makes leaderboards laughable. Being in the top twenty on the leaderboards with only 40 tourney games does not make their point any more valid than others.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Really. You judged us on rank. So I decided to run in a team just for a few hours. Pretty easy to get up from 95% to on the leaderboard. So now can I make comments?

Seriously. Get a grip of yourself. Rank means nothing.

I’m not judging you on anything. You’re taking what I said too personally. I’m simply saying that is impossible to fully grasp a class’s balance and skill level at low-level play.

Also, you’re not ranked anywhere on the ladder, as far as I can tell.

jportell.2197:

Alot of players don’t have the time to get on a dedicated team in order to increase their ranking on the leader board. Also a lot of people on the leader boards don’t have very many games under their belt which sort of makes leaderboards laughable. Being in the top twenty on the leaderboards with only 40 tourney games does not make their point any more valid than others.

It seems like those players are just making a lot of excuses. I’m rank 489 right now, and that’s only with solo and duo queueing. I’ve never been in a full team.

Your comments indicate you don’t understand how ELO works. If someone beats the top players, he deserves to be high ranked, even if he only has 40 games.

But this is getting increasingly off topic. Let’s drop it.

Lopez.7369:

I’m not judging you on anything. You’re taking what I said too personally. I’m simply saying that is impossible to fully grasp a class’s balance and skill level at low-level play.

Also, you’re not ranked anywhere on the ladder, as far as I can tell.

Out of 1000 people no im not and im not surprised at that since mainly what i do is soloque (my guild isn’t always on for tPvP or they are doing other parts of the game.) But trust me out of 1000+ games since before leaderboards and also with 7 of 8 classes trust me i understand class balance and can see glaring overpoweredness more than you would think. (One of the mesmers that thinks the phantasm build is OP)

Check my edited post. That response wasn’t meant for you.

Seriously the only thing that stops a necro is another necro – which then just becomes a lottery/spam fest. I literally win 50% of my necro vs necro fights just based on spam and luck. Necro really is unsatifying right now.

O and lopez the pro, please stop talking down to everyone and just go away. Your bs is boring now dude. You sound like themightyaltroll with your arrogance.

Lopez.7369:

That’s not what I said. There are plenty of great necromancers saying the class is too strong right now. I like to think I’m one of them.

But if someone is below 70 percentile, I’m not sure he’s fit to declare his class “so freaking overpowered.” At that level, individual skill plays a much bigger role than class mechanics.

I’m rank 2, necro is op. Yay for leaderboards.

Symbolic.7910:

Lopez.7369:

That’s not what I said. There are plenty of great necromancers saying the class is too strong right now. I like to think I’m one of them.

But if someone is below 70 percentile, I’m not sure he’s fit to declare his class “so freaking overpowered.” At that level, individual skill plays a much bigger role than class mechanics.

I’m rank 2, necro is op. Yay for leaderboards.

I have been watching the TP stream with duel necros… And just seriously. This teams they face are balanced but TP knows that capitalizing on OP classes gets the win. Xeph from TP has admitted it. He is also on the leader boards.

I have no idea who you’re arguing with. I’ve been saying necromancers need nerfs and Terror is overpowered since the patch went live.

All I said in those posts is that low-level players are jumping on the bandwagon without really knowing what they’re talking about.

Lopez.7369:

I have no idea who you’re arguing with. I’ve been saying necromancers need nerfs and Terror is overpowered since the patch went live.

It’s not whether or not you are saying necros are OP. Most would have to be blind (or want the biggest advantage) to say they aren’t. But saying being on leaderboards is an absolute necessity to have an opinion is a little ridiculous.

jportell.2197:

It’s not whether or not you are saying necros are OP. Most would have to be blind (or want the biggest advantage) to say they are. But saying being on leaderboards is an absolute necessity to have an opinion is a little ridiculous.

I never said that, either.

I think you guys are taking my comments too personally, and it’s making it difficult for you to interpret what I’m saying. I’m sorry if it’s offending you, but it is what it is.

The burning is overpowered, not the terror. Terror was fine prepatch.

Except burning — or torment, which I think should replace burning on Dhuumfire — is necessary for coverage. Otherwise necromancers would require engineers to do decent damage again.

So since Dhuumfire has to stay, Terror has to go. Or at least be nerfed.

I’ve mained a Necro for a while now, all I’ve gotta say is every time my team (with only me as necro) have gone up against these dumb 3-5 necro teams, they lose horribly. Like…200 point spread at least. some stun breaks, stability, and tada. we’ve built to counter this fotm meta and it hasn’t destroyed our builds. once you quit having 2-4 necros on enemy teams (due to them losing horribly and going back to their mains) I think all this will settle down.

P.S. put a 2 second ICD on individual fears on Spectral Wall per person and stop the QQing.

Symbolic.7910:

The burning is overpowered, not the terror. Terror was fine prepatch.

Burning it’s OK, chill builds need it to do some damage. That’s why Dumbfire it’s on Spite and not in Curses. Other builds may start to be viable with this mere trait and you want to nerf it.

Devs won’t nerf necros again. They won’t make the same mistake they do pre release.

If something, they should nerf burning, not necros applying burning.

Lopez.7369:

Except burning — or torment, which I think should replace burning on Dhuumfire — is necessary for coverage. Otherwise necromancers would require engineers to do decent damage again.

So since Dhuumfire has to stay, Terror has to go. Or at least be nerfed.

nop, terror has to stay.
If devs nerf terror, QQers will go after burning. Then we will have the same under par necro we had before the patch.

beside, it took almost 1 year to fix necro, why ppl think they will nerf it in 1 day?

These threads can always be expected.
Necro buff means people play necro to see what it’s all about. People then lose to necro more so because of the influx of necros than because of necro’s capabilities. Then they go on the forums to scream nerf. Shoo.

Symbolic.7910:

The burning is overpowered, not the terror. Terror was fine prepatch.

Remove epidemic. Let’s see how OP burning is then.

SIgh let me say this again, Also don’t take all damage utility spells you know that condi classes are very common now so how about taking some condi removal and stability?
Seriously though its been 3 days this would happen with any class. Any class that gets a buff like this is going to see a massive influx in the meta. You just have to wait and adapt a bit.
My ele i took earth Armour cleasning fire and mist form to counter all the condis
MY mesmer took arcane thievery and null field and portal sure.
My necro i stoped running condi damage and bunker wells and been doing amazing with it
My Gaurdian well i have always ran shout build so i have been fine
MY warrior running shouts and mace now cces help alot against necros
Changes happen just try to counter it until the meta stabilizes I know for a fact if warriors got a massive buff this thread would be about how op they are. Just adapt for now and see what happens