Guild Wars 2

Kuya.6495:

I think there are two separate complaints about thf right now:

1. one complaint is that thf has no reliable counter at higher levels of play. not in terms of 1v1, because a thf can always be either defeated or matched by a dh, war or engi, but because these 3 counters don’t have the mobility to keep up with a thf’s decaps and +1.

2. the other complaint is from the lower levels of play where, especially classes with limited access to stability, get spam interrupted by thfs basically dying without being able to mount a response. There’s also the issue whether vault spam and condi spam thf variants deserve a nerf.

I think complaint number 1 is very interesting and requires more discussion. Complaint number 2, i think, can simply be resolved by switching to classes that aren’t so vulnerable to thf, such as engi, dh or war. The issue with infinite evade thf variants should probably be looked at (much like the full trapper dh which at this point should probably just be put out to pasture since it’s not really a good build).

No, switching classes is not a solution. Remember when s/d thief rekt mesmer? Well its like that now for necros. A thief can just farm you all game and you cant escape them because its a thief. Even though necro kills things like engi, the engi can get away. They also can survive for a while and can position themselves correctly to not get spiked by the necro. With thief it is irrelevant where you position. The thief will port on you and spam you down.

Thief is so mobile that it really hurts the game when they are massively hard countering certain classes (any squishy with no stability basically). PI is the culprit for all these specs which get farmed by thieves. Hence it helps the game to nerf it.

babazhook.6805:

DeceiverX.8361:

Mal.1670:

apharma.3741:

You could also take a leaf out of revs books and make headshot a longer daze but with kitten CD….

Either way this thread will be a salt mine, let me grab my popcorn.

Thief weapons skills don’t have cooldowns, so how would you even accomplish that lol

The way they did for stealth attacks; ANet doesn’t care.

2s ICD would probably make the trait plenty usable and hit spammers while giving stab-less/limited-stab professions like necro a little bit of relief.

I doubt there many thieves that spam headshot multiple times in less then two seconds. It just too easy to counter. If they are just spamming headshot without waiting to see if the opponent is trying to use (Which takes time) a skill all you do is stop trying to cast skills and let them spam. The damage is miniscule.

I play a thief mostly and will encounter these headshot spams time to time. I just stop using skills for a few seconds and am peferectly willing to have that thief burn off ini doing nothing.

In other words a 2 second ICD will simply help the bad thieves and do little to change this argument.

I was once watching a teamate in wvw fight a p/p thief. The theif died about 10 times in a row. He was fighting an ele while using unload and every single time the ele threw up a reflect kept firing. The ele used that tendency against the thief just as any class can do against the headshot spam.

Yes, and for the exact opposite scenario you cited; builds with limited stability and reflects for example have limited to no counterplay to it and take tons of damage while not being able to cast abilities or really do anything, either. As I’ve said repeatedly in this thread, the very nature of PI spam should be nerfed because it’s overly-punishing to builds already-susceptible to being interrupted. D/P has the tools to get around projectile hate and blocks as well via Shadow Shot, too.

Which is also why I proposed the 2s ICD; it negates the efficacy of just mindlessly spamming 4 and reduces the punishment via raw damage for chain-interrupting your target (the thief already has great damage from its AA) while not impacting reasonably-skilled play. This also lets PI achieve its full damage over a longer period of time against builds with more stab access or projectile hate while not really reducing the efficacy of its damage when used in most scenarios.

As intended, this is only supposed to hurt unskilled play resulting in efficacy due to matchup, rather than just being a strict nerf to the thief’s interrupt potential or reducing the damage on PI which depending on the tier of play is seen as close to essential.

DeceiverX.8361:

babazhook.6805:

DeceiverX.8361:

Mal.1670:

apharma.3741:

You could also take a leaf out of revs books and make headshot a longer daze but with kitten CD….

Either way this thread will be a salt mine, let me grab my popcorn.

Thief weapons skills don’t have cooldowns, so how would you even accomplish that lol

The way they did for stealth attacks; ANet doesn’t care.

2s ICD would probably make the trait plenty usable and hit spammers while giving stab-less/limited-stab professions like necro a little bit of relief.

I doubt there many thieves that spam headshot multiple times in less then two seconds. It just too easy to counter. If they are just spamming headshot without waiting to see if the opponent is trying to use (Which takes time) a skill all you do is stop trying to cast skills and let them spam. The damage is miniscule.

I play a thief mostly and will encounter these headshot spams time to time. I just stop using skills for a few seconds and am peferectly willing to have that thief burn off ini doing nothing.

In other words a 2 second ICD will simply help the bad thieves and do little to change this argument.

I was once watching a teamate in wvw fight a p/p thief. The theif died about 10 times in a row. He was fighting an ele while using unload and every single time the ele threw up a reflect kept firing. The ele used that tendency against the thief just as any class can do against the headshot spam.

Yes, and for the exact opposite scenario you cited; builds with limited stability and reflects for example have limited to no counterplay to it and take tons of damage while not being able to cast abilities or really do anything, either. As I’ve said repeatedly in this thread, the very nature of PI spam should be nerfed because it’s overly-punishing to builds already-susceptible to being interrupted. D/P has the tools to get around projectile hate and blocks as well via Shadow Shot, too.

Which is also why I proposed the 2s ICD; it negates the efficacy of just mindlessly spamming 4 and reduces the punishment via raw damage for chain-interrupting your target (the thief already has great damage from its AA) while not impacting reasonably-skilled play. This also lets PI achieve its full damage over a longer period of time against builds with more stab access or projectile hate while not really reducing the efficacy of its damage when used in most scenarios.

As intended, this is only supposed to hurt unskilled play resulting in efficacy due to matchup, rather than just being a strict nerf to the thief’s interrupt potential or reducing the damage on PI which depending on the tier of play is seen as close to essential.

A 2 s icd is worthless. Think about why for a second. You hit it once and they are dazed so you wont hit another for at least 2 seconds. If there is to be an icd it should be 15 seconds or something. If its a damage nerf then about 25%

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ross Biddle.2367:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Rickster.8752:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Or just dodge it, block it, reflect it, destroy it, apply Stability, use an Invuln. And so on there’s counter play to it just saying.

Let the salt flow!!!

That is my point. You should be able to dodge it. Hence why a 0.75s cast time is fair to all concerned.

You can dodge it. That is my point… the projectile still has travel time and does have a precast ans animation to tip you off.

This is silly. The Thief is looking to interrupt. Therefor he’s waiting to fire only when his target is deciding to cast. If the target is casting he’s actively engaging in skill use. Mentally he’s committing to said action to the exclusion of all other actions. In otherwords, no player is waiting for a headshot animation to dodge it. It is only going to occur when they choose to cast, at which point they’ve committed to not dodging!

Your assertion that they can dodge it, while true, is blatantly ridiculous given the whole purpose of headshot and PI to begin with. Because what’s possible isn’t the same as what’s reasonable.

For the record, damage on interrupt isnt necessarily bad (see Mesmer). It’s only bad on thief. Why? Same as all thief complaints from the dawning of time, initiative system and spammable skill use etc etc. Dumbdumbdumbdumbdumb.

They have a choice interrupt there Spell cast and not eat damage by dodging or eat damage and still not get the skill off, hmm choices a player should always constantly evaluate what is best in the situation. Counterplay is still counterplay. It would be stupid not to self interrupt and avoid the damage then to eat the damage and still not get the Spell off.

This is moronic. The obvious best choice in your scenario is to not cast at all, ever. The mathcup in relation to thief is the problem simply because the thiefs access to his interrupt counter is without end, and without counterplay. Headshot’s also the least of the problem skills since Thief has far more access to interrupts than just that.

Anyway, it’s pretty clear you have very little understanding of interrupt gameplay, and how on thief it turns a basic counter element into a ridiculous feature once PI is introduced. I’ll say again, when we compare it to Power Block on Mesmer, there’s no problem. Why? General class balance in things like trait line investment, access to cc’s, relevant CD’s of those skills, overall class mechanics etc.

Ross Biddle.2367:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ross Biddle.2367:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Rickster.8752:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Or just dodge it, block it, reflect it, destroy it, apply Stability, use an Invuln. And so on there’s counter play to it just saying.

Let the salt flow!!!

That is my point. You should be able to dodge it. Hence why a 0.75s cast time is fair to all concerned.

You can dodge it. That is my point… the projectile still has travel time and does have a precast ans animation to tip you off.

This is silly. The Thief is looking to interrupt. Therefor he’s waiting to fire only when his target is deciding to cast. If the target is casting he’s actively engaging in skill use. Mentally he’s committing to said action to the exclusion of all other actions. In otherwords, no player is waiting for a headshot animation to dodge it. It is only going to occur when they choose to cast, at which point they’ve committed to not dodging!

Your assertion that they can dodge it, while true, is blatantly ridiculous given the whole purpose of headshot and PI to begin with. Because what’s possible isn’t the same as what’s reasonable.

For the record, damage on interrupt isnt necessarily bad (see Mesmer). It’s only bad on thief. Why? Same as all thief complaints from the dawning of time, initiative system and spammable skill use etc etc. Dumbdumbdumbdumbdumb.

They have a choice interrupt there Spell cast and not eat damage by dodging or eat damage and still not get the skill off, hmm choices a player should always constantly evaluate what is best in the situation. Counterplay is still counterplay. It would be stupid not to self interrupt and avoid the damage then to eat the damage and still not get the Spell off.

This is moronic. The obvious best choice in your scenario is to not cast at all, ever. The mathcup in relation to thief is the problem simply because the thiefs access to his interrupt counter is without end, and without counterplay. Headshot’s also the least of the problem skills since Thief has far more access to interrupts than just that.

Anyway, it’s pretty clear you have very little understanding of interrupt gameplay, and how on thief it turns a basic counter element into a ridiculous feature once PI is introduced. I’ll say again, when we compare it to Power Block on Mesmer, there’s no problem. Why? General class balance in things like trait line investment, access to cc’s, relevant CD’s of those skills, overall class mechanics etc.

lol you know something is OP when a single trait is causing people to say “just dont cast any spell!!!”. Really? lol. I tried that btw and then you just die to thieves insane auto attack damage.

Remember when Mesmers were supposed to be able to do this kitten? But they got stuck having to actually generate their resources, as opposed to getting it passively, on top of skills generating it.

Also there is a counter without attacking. Stealth! lolololololol

This is just sad actually. Atm when you have 2 thieves on team people already throw tantrum and demand thieves to reroll. Gets even worse if we have 3 but hey thief is OP, yo.

Worst part, so here are all these necro/mes mains demanding thief nerfs but my experience from last seasons also showed that this very same people demand you to reroll to another class if you land on their team as a thief when the class is not doing so well (e.g. season 1).

Also,
1. " you need a thief to counter thief in Pro League tournaments": not true, depending on map you actually don’t (e.g. Forefire). Also, you need to have an ele and preferably a druid. So it is ok for those, but not ok for needing a thief to counter enemy thief? Double standards anyone? I mean by that logic ele, scrapper, druid needs to be nerfed.

2. In normal ranked thief heavily depends on his team doing well. If team is not doing well, you can’t “carry”. Definition of OP is when you actually 1v1 most classes, 1v2, 1v3 and hold point and preferably rotate fast. Thief can’t do any of that beside rotating. Thief damage is not even highest among current meta builds, they also have lowest sustain in game as well. “How dare glass cannon build deal damage!” – this is what all complains here boil down to. HS/IP also has a lot of counters, not just 1 or 2, multiple of them (blocks, blinds, stab, counter cc, LOS, dodge, reflects, stealth – every class has at least one of those; i am not even going to start on damage reduction traits). Skill is broken when there is little counter to it and it is too rewarding. 3k (on a good day) requiring to successfully interrupt something is hardly broken. A weapon swap from necro does more dmg to my thief than i do to necro with IP (and he has almost double of my thief’s HP).

But let’s keep it short: to all this necros/mes and co complainers, answer me this question. How do you explain, assuming thief is OP, that stacking necros is viable, stacking mes is viable, but having more than 1 thief on a team results in a loss in most cases? I am struggling with contradiction here.

Cynz.9437:

This is just sad actually. Atm when you have 2 thieves on team people already throw tantrum and demand thieves to reroll. Gets even worse if we have 3 but hey thief is OP, yo.

Worst part, so here are all these necro/mes mains demanding thief nerfs but my experience from last seasons also showed that this very same people demand you to reroll to another class if you land on their team as a thief when the class is not doing so well (e.g. season 1).

Also,
1. " you need a thief to counter thief in Pro League tournaments": not true, depending on map you actually don’t (e.g. Forefire). Also, you need to have an ele and preferably a druid. So it is ok for those, but not ok for needing a thief to counter enemy thief? Double standards anyone? I mean by that logic ele, scrapper, druid needs to be nerfed.

2. In normal ranked thief heavily depends on his team doing well. If team is not doing well, you can’t “carry”. Definition of OP is when you actually 1v1 most classes, 1v2, 1v3 and hold point and preferably rotate fast. Thief can’t do any of that beside rotating. Thief damage is not even highest among current meta builds, they also have lowest sustain in game as well. “How dare glass cannon build deal damage!” – this is what all complains here boil down to. HS/IP also has a lot of counters, not just 1 or 2, multiple of them (blocks, blinds, stab, counter cc, LOS, dodge, reflects, stealth – every class has at least one of those; i am not even going to start on damage reduction traits). Skill is broken when there is little counter to it and it is too rewarding. 3k (on a good day) requiring to successfully interrupt something is hardly broken. A weapon swap from necro does more dmg to my thief than i do to necro with IP (and he has almost double of my thief’s HP).

But let’s keep it short: to all this necros/mes and co complainers, answer me this question. How do you explain, assuming thief is OP, that stacking necros is viable, stacking mes is viable, but having more than 1 thief on a team results in a loss in most cases? I am struggling with contradiction here.

Irrelevant. besides. 2 thief comp is most likely really good in ranked.

The problem is there are many builds and classes which cannot exist because of A SINGLE TRAIT. Everytime I die…I would say like 50% of them are to thieves. And then I look at kill feed. Its 12k PI procs. 3 procs for 12k……Not to mention the easy 8k backstabs with no counter play.

You can’t do anything against it short of not casting spells. If you dont cast spells you die anyway. Mesmer and warrior might also be really strong but it isn’t even comparable.

Want to play damage ele? Nope, PI. Want to play damage mesmer? Nope, PI. Want to play condi necro? Nope, PI. Want to play power ranger? Nope, PI.

As for thieves moaning about killing too slow. Like really? You still kill an ele 1v1 easily. It takes like 30 seconds. Do you need to 1 shot everything or something?

The whole game is miserable because of passive 12k damage from instant cast ranged dazes. Headshot is amazing without PI. It can interrupt anything. Now with PI you add massive damage to this amazing skill.

This thief spec, I have heard, is also the easiest to play. Lastly, this isn’t some top tier thing. My rating is 1900 before decay and when levelling up there were 1500 rated thieves who caused me serious issues purely due to PI passive procs with zero counter play. You already have 9k backstabs and auto attacks that hit like a warrior….

This is the most OP build I have seen in my 2 years playing this game.

Cynz.9437:

But let’s keep it short: to all this necros/mes and co complainers, answer me this question. How do you explain, assuming thief is OP, that stacking necros is viable, stacking mes is viable, but having more than 1 thief on a team results in a loss in most cases? I am struggling with contradiction here.

I face palm when I see double mes and one doesn’t change because a lot of people suck at mes. In fact if you saw the streams with Helseth climbing out of Bronze it was when he had another mes that he was more likely to lose.

2 necros with no support is just as bad but only shine when they have someone supporting them enough to get those corrupts off. Think about it, necro will annihilate scrapper, ele, dragon hunter and generally can help deal with wars and druids too because of corrupts. With no support necro will be in serious trouble without deathshroud.

Double thief isn’t a bad comp, it’s certainly not an auto loss. The problem is a lot of thieves are not half as good as they think, the same issue with a lot of mesmers. It’s one of the reasons I don’t play mesmer on ranked, I know I’m not capable of playing at a good level while rotating and using portal to its maximum effectiveness.

An alternative to nerfing thief and PI = to grant stability to more skills and classes.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Irrelevant. besides. 2 thief comp is most likely really good in ranked.

The problem is there are many builds and classes which cannot exist because of A SINGLE TRAIT. Everytime I die…I would say like 50% of them are to thieves. And then I look at kill feed. Its 12k PI procs. 3 procs for 12k……Not to mention the easy 8k backstabs with no counter play.

You can’t do anything against it short of not casting spells. If you dont cast spells you die anyway. Mesmer and warrior might also be really strong but it isn’t even comparable.

Want to play damage ele? Nope, PI. Want to play damage mesmer? Nope, PI. Want to play condi necro? Nope, PI. Want to play power ranger? Nope, PI.

As for thieves moaning about killing too slow. Like really? You still kill an ele 1v1 easily. It takes like 30 seconds. Do you need to 1 shot everything or something?

The whole game is miserable because of passive 12k damage from instant cast ranged dazes. Headshot is amazing without PI. It can interrupt anything. Now with PI you add massive damage to this amazing skill.

This thief spec, I have heard, is also the easiest to play. Lastly, this isn’t some top tier thing. My rating is 1900 before decay and when levelling up there were 1500 rated thieves who caused me serious issues purely due to PI passive procs with zero counter play. You already have 9k backstabs and auto attacks that hit like a warrior….

This is the most OP build I have seen in my 2 years playing this game.

- 2 thieves is not a good comp given same skill level across 2 teams. It is guaranteed loss.
- Many builds that can’t exist because of a single trait? Like what. Give me some examples. Of course you would die a lot to thieves, you are a necro, a thief would be dumb not to focus you. You know what my death log looks like on scrapper? Poison, torment, burning, etc. By your logic necros need hefty nerfs because as a scrapper i might as well afk at spawn if enemy has a necro.

- 3 Pi for 12k ? It is 4k PI per proc, it usually hits for 3k on a good day, please post screenshot of that death log. Once again, i take more damage from necro weapon swap alone than PI will ever do. 8k backstab on necro? How? Did you afk or something? 8k backstab on a necro is not happening unless you have crapload of vulnerability on you and thief has might stacks. Given how necro applies weakness 24/7 i don’t see 8k backstabs happening. Also, backstab has plenty of counters…. (blocks, blinds, invuls, protection, etc.).

- FA ele doesn.t fail because of PI, FA ele dies to literary everything in this meta. Nobody played thieves in s1, where were all those FA eles? RRrrright, nobody played them despite thieves not existing in pvp.

- Actually people play dps mes, it is just not as good as condi build atm. Once again, when thieves didn’t exist in s1, nobody bothered playing shatter – your point is moot.

- people play dps ranger, what are you talking about?

- it doesn’t take 30 sec to kill good ele, it takes 1-2 min if ele doesn’t abuse JP. Nobody is moaning that it takes long for a thief to kill certain classes, point is when it takes for a glasses cannon considerable time to kill something then it is hardly broken. Given what you said it seems like you want tankier classes to be unkillable. Sry, but season 1 was bad and should never happen again.

- 1) for 12k you need 4 headshots, anyone would be stupid to spam so many headshots. I still fail to see how doing 12k over time is not ok for a dps build that has nothing else going for them. 2) it is not passive, thief actually needs to successfully interrupt the target for PI to trigger. Passive is defy pain.

- HS can’t interrupt everything due to reflects, stab, blocks, blinds etc. 3k is hardly a massive dmg…. especially on tanky builds like druid.

- then why don’t you play it when it is so easy? Go play that “easy” spec, post some videos of your epic plays, in plat please.

- once again, you play necro, there is a class that counters you, deal with it. Also, there are counters to PI, it is your choice not to use them.

- so which is it 8k backstabs or 9k lol? The number seems to increase with every line you type lol.

- yeaaaah, too bad thief doesn’t have sustain of a warrior and can stay in melee only for like 2 sec.

- pretty sure revs at HoT launch were more broken lol. Also, you clearly didn’t experience dhumfire necros xD

This was a good try though, Henry. I wouldn’t bite but certain people take it really serious.

@apharma.3741: assuming same skill level and everyone running meta, i am pretty sure double thief team is more at disadvantage than double mes or double necro comp. You may win some fights but thief is simply not capable of holding point and points win games.

I don’t know if it’s possible but..
if pulmonary impact could change its damage based on the base casting time (without quickness) of the interrupted moves, capped at 1,5 sec?

Actual base damage: 872

Guardian’s Hammer AA
1 and 2 swings With 0,5 casting time: 872*0,5 = 436
3 swing With 1,25 casting time: 872*1,25 = 1090

Reaper’s Soul Spiral
2,75 casting time: 872*1,5 = 1308

No more huge damage for spamming and a sweet reward for who can interrupt key skills.
Also put a ICD of 1 sec to don’t promote senseless interrupt chain.

Cynz.9437:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Irrelevant. besides. 2 thief comp is most likely really good in ranked.

The problem is there are many builds and classes which cannot exist because of A SINGLE TRAIT. Everytime I die…I would say like 50% of them are to thieves. And then I look at kill feed. Its 12k PI procs. 3 procs for 12k……Not to mention the easy 8k backstabs with no counter play.

You can’t do anything against it short of not casting spells. If you dont cast spells you die anyway. Mesmer and warrior might also be really strong but it isn’t even comparable.

Want to play damage ele? Nope, PI. Want to play damage mesmer? Nope, PI. Want to play condi necro? Nope, PI. Want to play power ranger? Nope, PI.

As for thieves moaning about killing too slow. Like really? You still kill an ele 1v1 easily. It takes like 30 seconds. Do you need to 1 shot everything or something?

The whole game is miserable because of passive 12k damage from instant cast ranged dazes. Headshot is amazing without PI. It can interrupt anything. Now with PI you add massive damage to this amazing skill.

This thief spec, I have heard, is also the easiest to play. Lastly, this isn’t some top tier thing. My rating is 1900 before decay and when levelling up there were 1500 rated thieves who caused me serious issues purely due to PI passive procs with zero counter play. You already have 9k backstabs and auto attacks that hit like a warrior….

This is the most OP build I have seen in my 2 years playing this game.

- 2 thieves is not a good comp given same skill level across 2 teams. It is guaranteed loss.
- Many builds that can’t exist because of a single trait? Like what. Give me some examples. Of course you would die a lot to thieves, you are a necro, a thief would be dumb not to focus you. You know what my death log looks like on scrapper? Poison, torment, burning, etc. By your logic necros need hefty nerfs because as a scrapper i might as well afk at spawn if enemy has a necro.

- 3 Pi for 12k ? It is 4k PI per proc, it usually hits for 3k on a good day, please post screenshot of that death log. Once again, i take more damage from necro weapon swap alone than PI will ever do. 8k backstab on necro? How? Did you afk or something? 8k backstab on a necro is not happening unless you have crapload of vulnerability on you and thief has might stacks. Given how necro applies weakness 24/7 i don’t see 8k backstabs happening. Also, backstab has plenty of counters…. (blocks, blinds, invuls, protection, etc.).

- FA ele doesn.t fail because of PI, FA ele dies to literary everything in this meta. Nobody played thieves in s1, where were all those FA eles? RRrrright, nobody played them despite thieves not existing in pvp.

- Actually people play dps mes, it is just not as good as condi build atm. Once again, when thieves didn’t exist in s1, nobody bothered playing shatter – your point is

- HS can’t interrupt everything due to reflects, stab, blocks, blinds etc. 3k is hardly a massive dmg…. especially on tanky builds like druid.

- then why don’t you play it when it is so easy? Go play that “easy” spec, post some videos of your epic plays, in plat please.

- once again, you play necro, there is a class that counters you, deal with it. Also, there are counters to PI, it is your choice not to use them.

- so which is it 8k backstabs or 9k lol? The number seems to increase with every line you type lol.

- yeaaaah, too bad thief doesn’t have sustain of a warrior and can stay in melee only for like 2 sec.

- pretty sure revs at HoT launch were more broken lol. Also, you clearly didn’t experience dhumfire necros xD

This was a good try though, Henry. I wouldn’t bite but certain people take it really serious.

@apharma.3741: assuming same skill level and everyone running meta, i am pretty sure double thief team is more at disadvantage than double mes or double necro comp. You may win some fights but thief is simply not capable of holding point and points win games.

Come on dude. I know that you know thief is op and pi in particular is broken. Look what they did to dhuumfire. They nerfed it into oblivion. Your best bet would be to argue for how to nerf pi but not make it worthless. By saying its not op you lose credibility.

Maybe a 15% damage reduction? Maybe a ten second icd? The trait would still be good in both cases.

I would nerf the dps by 15% and make it not proc on auto attacks. This nerf might not be enough, but it would be a start towards fixing the game.

I wouldnt know about hot revs as i have only played gw2 hot for 5 weeks

Lordrosicky.5813:

Come on dude. I know that you know thief is op and pi in particular is broken. Look what they did to dhuumfire. They nerfed it into oblivion. Your best bet would be to argue for how to nerf pi but not make it worthless. By saying its not op you lose credibility.

Maybe a 15% damage reduction? Maybe a ten second icd? The trait would still be good in both cases.

I would nerf the dps by 15% and make it not proc on auto attacks. This nerf might not be enough, but it would be a start towards fixing the game.

I wouldnt know about hot revs as i have only played gw2 hot for 5 weeks

Cmon on, dude. I know that you know thief is not OP and PI in particular is not broken given the current state of classes. By saying it is OP, you lose all credibility :P

Thing is, why should a dps class that can be easily ignored by half of the classes, and deals mainly single target damage (not even highest in game) at costs of survivability have it’s damage nerfed?

Well, i did play at HoT launch, i played rev actually because my team forced me to dump my thief for rev. Rev was stupidly broken, i could 1v3 for ages and actually down players. I also had best mobility in game (beside thieves, but even those couldn’t get away from rev at that time). Thief is a joke compared to monstrosity revs were at launch.

Cynz.9437:

Thing is, why should a dps class that can be easily ignored by half of the classes, and deals mainly single target damage (not even highest in game) at costs of survivability have it’s damage nerfed?

Because that dps class is completely uncatchable by anything that isn’t itself.

The only way to handle a thief is to have your own thief. period. This violates the first rule of balance which is that the best counter to a class cannot be itself.

DH, engi, and war are not counters to thief because they cannot catch a thief. Only revs and chrono have a hope of touching a thief and but those classes are countered hard by thief.

Crinn.7864:

Cynz.9437:

Thing is, why should a dps class that can be easily ignored by half of the classes, and deals mainly single target damage (not even highest in game) at costs of survivability have it’s damage nerfed?

Because that dps class is completely uncatchable by anything that isn’t itself.

The only way to handle a thief is to have your own thief. period. This violates the first rule of balance which is that the best counter to a class cannot be itself.

DH, engi, and war are not counters to thief because they cannot catch a thief. Only revs and chrono have a hope of touching a thief and but those classes are countered hard by thief.

Wrong. Druid can easily prevent thief from decaps or +1 someone due to short CD on RTL. Revs still have their mobility that allows them to follow thief. DHs have teleports.

Thief has counters, which is scrapper, DH, druid, war or just generally… you know, MAP AWARENESS.

Your statement would be true if we were talking about wvw but we are not. PvP is all about holding points and those classes don’t just counter thief, they are also amazing point holders. You don’t have to play for 3 points when you can bunker down 2 and those classes are really good at it.

Mes is not hardcountered by thief…… they have around 50% chance to kill each other. Same goes for rev. Hardcounter is when you have 0 chance to win vs other class (e.g. thief can’t touch scrapper or scrapper simply gets eaten alive by necros).

Cynz.9437:

@apharma.3741: assuming same skill level and everyone running meta, i am pretty sure double thief team is more at disadvantage than double mes or double necro comp. You may win some fights but thief is simply not capable of holding point and points win games.

Killing enemy players also wins games, one thief does the meta DP build, the other runs a more on point damage build like acro staff. You can’t assume both thieves run the meta because they’re then both playing the same role. You only need 1 person for that role especially with a thief and it’s insane mobility.

Double thief isn’t bad, double +1 decap role is not good.

Cynz.9437:

Crinn.7864:

Cynz.9437:

Thing is, why should a dps class that can be easily ignored by half of the classes, and deals mainly single target damage (not even highest in game) at costs of survivability have it’s damage nerfed?

Because that dps class is completely uncatchable by anything that isn’t itself.

The only way to handle a thief is to have your own thief. period. This violates the first rule of balance which is that the best counter to a class cannot be itself.

DH, engi, and war are not counters to thief because they cannot catch a thief. Only revs and chrono have a hope of touching a thief and but those classes are countered hard by thief.

Wrong. Druid can easily prevent thief from decaps or +1 someone due to short CD on RTL. Revs still have their mobility that allows them to follow thief. DHs have teleports.

Thief has counters, which is scrapper, DH, druid, war or just generally… you know, MAP AWARENESS.

Your statement would be true if we were talking about wvw but we are not. PvP is all about holding points and those classes don’t just counter thief, they are also amazing point holders. You don’t have to play for 3 points when you can bunker down 2 and those classes are really good at it.

Mes is not hardcountered by thief…… they have around 50% chance to kill each other. Same goes for rev. Hardcounter is when you have 0 chance to win vs other class (e.g. thief can’t touch scrapper or scrapper simply gets eaten alive by necros).

Yeh but everyone plays 3 cap regardless so that isnt an arguement. I have played in 2 necro comps as a total glass necro (with no lf generation) vs 2 thief comps and people still push far solo. Pi is just too strong. And there is no counterplay.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Cynz.9437:

Crinn.7864:

Cynz.9437:

Thing is, why should a dps class that can be easily ignored by half of the classes, and deals mainly single target damage (not even highest in game) at costs of survivability have it’s damage nerfed?

Because that dps class is completely uncatchable by anything that isn’t itself.

The only way to handle a thief is to have your own thief. period. This violates the first rule of balance which is that the best counter to a class cannot be itself.

DH, engi, and war are not counters to thief because they cannot catch a thief. Only revs and chrono have a hope of touching a thief and but those classes are countered hard by thief.

Wrong. Druid can easily prevent thief from decaps or +1 someone due to short CD on RTL. Revs still have their mobility that allows them to follow thief. DHs have teleports.

Thief has counters, which is scrapper, DH, druid, war or just generally… you know, MAP AWARENESS.

Your statement would be true if we were talking about wvw but we are not. PvP is all about holding points and those classes don’t just counter thief, they are also amazing point holders. You don’t have to play for 3 points when you can bunker down 2 and those classes are really good at it.

Mes is not hardcountered by thief…… they have around 50% chance to kill each other. Same goes for rev. Hardcounter is when you have 0 chance to win vs other class (e.g. thief can’t touch scrapper or scrapper simply gets eaten alive by necros).

Yeh but everyone plays 3 cap regardless so that isnt an arguement. I have played in 2 necro comps as a total glass necro (with no lf generation) vs 2 thief comps and people still push far solo. Pi is just too strong. And there is no counterplay.

Why are you blaming pi for your team mates pushing far solo?

Cynz.9437:

- 3 Pi for 12k ? It is 4k PI per proc, it usually hits for 3k on a good day, please post screenshot of that death log.

Just happened to see you say this while skimming over this thread. This was back during season 3. Not saying anything one way or the other, just providing some evidence.

Unholey.3264:

Cynz.9437:

- 3 Pi for 12k ? It is 4k PI per proc, it usually hits for 3k on a good day, please post screenshot of that death log.

Just happened to see you say this while skimming over this thread. This was back during season 3. Not saying anything one way or the other, just providing some evidence.

Careful now, evidence that PI actually deals ridiculous damage might scare the thief players away.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Come on dude. I know that you know thief is op and pi in particular is broken. Look what they did to dhuumfire. They nerfed it into oblivion. Your best bet would be to argue for how to nerf pi but not make it worthless. By saying its not op you lose credibility.

Maybe a 15% damage reduction? Maybe a ten second icd? The trait would still be good in both cases.

I would nerf the dps by 15% and make it not proc on auto attacks. This nerf might not be enough, but it would be a start towards fixing the game.

I wouldnt know about hot revs as i have only played gw2 hot for 5 weeks

I just want the trait ID to have an ICD. That way you can still proc it twice in a row if you are running Fist Flurry, but a global CD on PI would not allow this. An ICD of 5 seconds on ID would be more than enough

DeceiverX.8361:

babazhook.6805:

DeceiverX.8361:

Mal.1670:

apharma.3741:

You could also take a leaf out of revs books and make headshot a longer daze but with kitten CD….

Either way this thread will be a salt mine, let me grab my popcorn.

Thief weapons skills don’t have cooldowns, so how would you even accomplish that lol

The way they did for stealth attacks; ANet doesn’t care.

2s ICD would probably make the trait plenty usable and hit spammers while giving stab-less/limited-stab professions like necro a little bit of relief.

I doubt there many thieves that spam headshot multiple times in less then two seconds. It just too easy to counter. If they are just spamming headshot without waiting to see if the opponent is trying to use (Which takes time) a skill all you do is stop trying to cast skills and let them spam. The damage is miniscule.

I play a thief mostly and will encounter these headshot spams time to time. I just stop using skills for a few seconds and am peferectly willing to have that thief burn off ini doing nothing.

In other words a 2 second ICD will simply help the bad thieves and do little to change this argument.

I was once watching a teamate in wvw fight a p/p thief. The theif died about 10 times in a row. He was fighting an ele while using unload and every single time the ele threw up a reflect kept firing. The ele used that tendency against the thief just as any class can do against the headshot spam.

Yes, and for the exact opposite scenario you cited; builds with limited stability and reflects for example have limited to no counterplay to it and take tons of damage while not being able to cast abilities or really do anything, either. As I’ve said repeatedly in this thread, the very nature of PI spam should be nerfed because it’s overly-punishing to builds already-susceptible to being interrupted. D/P has the tools to get around projectile hate and blocks as well via Shadow Shot, too.

Which is also why I proposed the 2s ICD; it negates the efficacy of just mindlessly spamming 4 and reduces the punishment via raw damage for chain-interrupting your target (the thief already has great damage from its AA) while not impacting reasonably-skilled play. This also lets PI achieve its full damage over a longer period of time against builds with more stab access or projectile hate while not really reducing the efficacy of its damage when used in most scenarios.

As intended, this is only supposed to hurt unskilled play resulting in efficacy due to matchup, rather than just being a strict nerf to the thief’s interrupt potential or reducing the damage on PI which depending on the tier of play is seen as close to essential.

I play thief mostly and they have limited reflects and no stability. When I meet a headshot spam I tend to just eat the damage giving them nothing to interrupt. This burns off their INI and is how I counter said thief.

The headshot damage on its own, without an interrupt is minimal. Just as with d/d spam on DB , Pole vault spam and HS spam and Unload spam counterplay available to all is to recognize the person spamming and knowing exactly what he is able to do as he spams.

in the case of headshot it is next to no damage unless there an interrupt so I give nothing to interrupt. So what if I do not attack for 4 seconds. If I am on my P/P thief and someone throws up a reflect or 3 second block I also stop doing anything. If I have confusion on me I also stop doing anything.

Your 2 second cooldown only helps bad thieves, those against whom I play that waste INI spamming. It will also help bad Necro or theif players that just keep spamming skills even as they are being interrupted.

Good players do not just spam headshot. Good players do not keep using skills as a person spamming headshot on them. Good players can spam headshot when the enemy player fixated on doing a set series of Rotations and head shot spam in fact helps counter that type of mindless gameplay.

I would suggest as example , headshot spam works very well against a person using a macro to chain multiple skills together.

Unlike other classes that can chain interrupts such as a warrior doing headbutt shield smask and pommel strike , headshot damage of any great amount happenes ONLY if there an interrupt. The damage from the warrior chain above will be much higher. Go and play a warrior and add in something like wild blow to that chain either condition or power and you will no longer be talking about how bad headshot is. It takes no more skill to press 4 4 4 4 then 0 9 1 4

leave it as it is.

babazhook.6805:

Good players do not keep using skills as a person spamming headshot on them.

Tell me how to beat a thief without using abilities.

As for the rest of your post. You’re arguing from the position that PI thieves aren’t smart enough to manage initiative. The problem is that there are believe it or not, players smart enough to not waste headshot, and it’s impossible for a number of classes to handle that.

Right now for some classes the options are:
A) attempt to hit the thief and die from PI.
or
B) don’t use casts and die because you can’t win a fight without dealing damage.

Unholey.3264:

Cynz.9437:

- 3 Pi for 12k ? It is 4k PI per proc, it usually hits for 3k on a good day, please post screenshot of that death log.

Just happened to see you say this while skimming over this thread. This was back during season 3. Not saying anything one way or the other, just providing some evidence.

I see mesmer and ele helping him. He probably also runs executioner. I am assuming you had crapload of vulnerability on you and thief had might stacks thank to mes/ele’s overload. PI is OP because ele and mes are helping the thief? Good joke.

Crinn.7864:

babazhook.6805:

Good players do not keep using skills as a person spamming headshot on them.

Tell me how to beat a thief without using abilities.

As for the rest of your post. You’re arguing from the position that PI thieves aren’t smart enough to manage initiative. The problem is that there are believe it or not, players smart enough to not waste headshot, and it’s impossible for a number of classes to handle that.

Right now for some classes the options are:
A) attempt to hit the thief and die from PI.
or
B) don’t use casts and die because you can’t win a fight without dealing damage.

Let’s assume that somehow magically you don’t have any instant spells, nor stability, nor blocks, nor blinds, nor stealth etc. What stops you from running behind some rock and cast your spells? There is plenty LoS, even around graveyard.

How come that i can beat DD thieves on my core (which has 0 blocks, 0 stab, only 2 dodges) and yet you can’t?

@OriOri.8724: i am not sure you are the right person to make suggestions regarding thief changes given your absolute lack of knowledge about the class https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Can-thief-apply-9-10-boons-at-once/first#post6459711 .

Aoe and instant casts. I’m not saying every class can do this because obviously thief counters some classes.

I think if the icd actually helps bad thfs by keeping from spamming head shot, then adding an icd is definitely a good thing because it instills good habits (ie: not spamming). I just want the icd not to be something stupid like 20 seconds, that’s too much. I think anywhere from 2-5 seconds icd is reasonable.

Furthermore, unlike most of the people who seem to want an icd on IP, i honestly don’t see how it’s practical to spam head shot. If i use black powder, followed by heartseeker and steal to land a HS and backstab. That’s already 9 initiative, leaving 6 points left for one head shot, and then you gotta wait for more initiative. I don’t see head shot spamming as a problem unless the thf doesn’t open with HS+BP and i don’t see why you wouldn’t do that as a thf.

Here’s a basic BP->Heartseeker->Steal, BS, dash out, headshot spam against the Mesmer npc for comparison. I used the meta build.

Crinn.7864:

babazhook.6805:

Good players do not keep using skills as a person spamming headshot on them.

Tell me how to beat a thief without using abilities.

As for the rest of your post. You’re arguing from the position that PI thieves aren’t smart enough to manage initiative. The problem is that there are believe it or not, players smart enough to not waste headshot, and it’s impossible for a number of classes to handle that.

Right now for some classes the options are:
A) attempt to hit the thief and die from PI.
or
B) don’t use casts and die because you can’t win a fight without dealing damage.

A thief is limited in INI. Once he burns off that INI you can then inflict your damage. Do you attack someone with projectiles when reflect is up or you have 10 confuson stacks on you?

Headshot on its own can not kill you. if it does you have L2p issues. A thief that uses headshot over shadow shot to do damage against a player that is not being interrupted is wasting INI and not doing damage. There are multiple ways of juking that person into using headshot that will result in it being a wasted use of INI and people have been giving them.

If you do not have stability/blocks dodges or invuln use weapon stow or LOS.

Kuya.6495:

I think if the icd actually helps bad thfs by keeping from spamming head shot, then adding an icd is definitely a good thing because it instills good habits (ie: not spamming). I just want the icd not to be something stupid like 20 seconds, that’s too much. I think anywhere from 2-5 seconds icd is reasonable.

Furthermore, unlike most of the people who seem to want an icd on IP, i honestly don’t see how it’s practical to spam head shot. If i use black powder, followed by heartseeker and steal to land a HS and backstab. That’s already 9 initiative, leaving 6 points left for one head shot, and then you gotta wait for more initiative. I don’t see head shot spamming as a problem unless the thf doesn’t open with HS+BP and i don’t see why you wouldn’t do that as a thf.

Paradoxically in a bid to rid the game of what people call “spam” headshot with PI is one of the beter ways to counter and punish spam. Time your shots properly against those Thieves that use DB 4 times in a row or that use vault 4 times in a row and you will soon break them of that habit.

Using predictable gameplay gets you punished and I see nothing wrong with that.

What about, instead of an icd, making PI trigger on the thf if his headshot is reflected? I bet that would punish careless spamming. But it probably wouldn’t help necro, just ele and mes.

Kuya.6495:

I think if the icd actually helps bad thfs by keeping from spamming head shot, then adding an icd is definitely a good thing because it instills good habits (ie: not spamming). I just want the icd not to be something stupid like 20 seconds, that’s too much. I think anywhere from 2-5 seconds icd is reasonable.

Furthermore, unlike most of the people who seem to want an icd on IP, i honestly don’t see how it’s practical to spam head shot. If i use black powder, followed by heartseeker and steal to land a HS and backstab. That’s already 9 initiative, leaving 6 points left for one head shot, and then you gotta wait for more initiative. I don’t see head shot spamming as a problem unless the thf doesn’t open with HS+BP and i don’t see why you wouldn’t do that as a thf.

2-5 second icd does literally nothing. Most of these sort of traits have a 10s icd and that would be suitable. Otherwise a damage reduction or an increase in headshotnini cost would do

Lordrosicky.5813:

DeceiverX.8361:

babazhook.6805:

DeceiverX.8361:

Mal.1670:

apharma.3741:

You could also take a leaf out of revs books and make headshot a longer daze but with kitten CD….

Either way this thread will be a salt mine, let me grab my popcorn.

Thief weapons skills don’t have cooldowns, so how would you even accomplish that lol

The way they did for stealth attacks; ANet doesn’t care.

2s ICD would probably make the trait plenty usable and hit spammers while giving stab-less/limited-stab professions like necro a little bit of relief.

I doubt there many thieves that spam headshot multiple times in less then two seconds. It just too easy to counter. If they are just spamming headshot without waiting to see if the opponent is trying to use (Which takes time) a skill all you do is stop trying to cast skills and let them spam. The damage is miniscule.

I play a thief mostly and will encounter these headshot spams time to time. I just stop using skills for a few seconds and am peferectly willing to have that thief burn off ini doing nothing.

In other words a 2 second ICD will simply help the bad thieves and do little to change this argument.

I was once watching a teamate in wvw fight a p/p thief. The theif died about 10 times in a row. He was fighting an ele while using unload and every single time the ele threw up a reflect kept firing. The ele used that tendency against the thief just as any class can do against the headshot spam.

Yes, and for the exact opposite scenario you cited; builds with limited stability and reflects for example have limited to no counterplay to it and take tons of damage while not being able to cast abilities or really do anything, either. As I’ve said repeatedly in this thread, the very nature of PI spam should be nerfed because it’s overly-punishing to builds already-susceptible to being interrupted. D/P has the tools to get around projectile hate and blocks as well via Shadow Shot, too.

Which is also why I proposed the 2s ICD; it negates the efficacy of just mindlessly spamming 4 and reduces the punishment via raw damage for chain-interrupting your target (the thief already has great damage from its AA) while not impacting reasonably-skilled play. This also lets PI achieve its full damage over a longer period of time against builds with more stab access or projectile hate while not really reducing the efficacy of its damage when used in most scenarios.

As intended, this is only supposed to hurt unskilled play resulting in efficacy due to matchup, rather than just being a strict nerf to the thief’s interrupt potential or reducing the damage on PI which depending on the tier of play is seen as close to essential.

A 2 s icd is worthless. Think about why for a second. You hit it once and they are dazed so you wont hit another for at least 2 seconds. If there is to be an icd it should be 15 seconds or something. If its a damage nerf then about 25%

I hope this is sarcasm, lol.

babazhook.6805:

Headshot on its own can not kill you. if it does you have L2p issues. A thief that uses headshot over shadow shot to do damage against a player that is not being interrupted is wasting INI and not doing damage. There are multiple ways of juking that person into using headshot that will result in it being a wasted use of INI and people have been giving them.
If you do not have stability/blocks dodges or invuln use weapon stow or LOS.

For the last time:
I
am
assuming
the
thief
is
smart
enough
to
only
headshot
actual
casts

Please stop making points on the assumption of the thief being incompetent.

Weapon stowing is irrelevant because headshot goes off faster than the human reaction time.
LoS is irrelevant because the thief has the mobility to make it irrelevant.

Crinn.7864:

babazhook.6805:

Headshot on its own can not kill you. if it does you have L2p issues. A thief that uses headshot over shadow shot to do damage against a player that is not being interrupted is wasting INI and not doing damage. There are multiple ways of juking that person into using headshot that will result in it being a wasted use of INI and people have been giving them.
If you do not have stability/blocks dodges or invuln use weapon stow or LOS.

For the last time:
I
am
assuming
the
thief
is
smart
enough
to
only
headshot
actual
casts

Please stop making points on the assumption of the thief being incompetent.

Weapon stowing is irrelevant because headshot goes off faster than the human reaction time.
LoS is irrelevant because the thief has the mobility to make it irrelevant.

But you are also assuming the thief’s enemy is stupid enough to not know how to counter PI.

You are literally pushing your own point w/out the full picture in mind. In the grand scheme of things thief and PI is perfectly balanced, and in most cases thief remains underpowered. Now if you all want to quote Senor Helseth you have to remember he’s basing his opinion off his duels vs a staff thief.

Staff thief doesn’t use PI FYI

Azukas.1426:

But you are also assuming the thief’s enemy is stupid enough to not know how to counter PI.

You’re assuming all classes even have the capability to handle PI. Some classes’s only option when dealing with a thief is to keel over and die.

You are literally pushing your own point w/out the full picture in mind. In the grand scheme of things thief and PI is perfectly balanced, and in most cases thief remains underpowered. Now if you all want to quote Senor Helseth you have to remember he’s basing his opinion off his duels vs a staff thief.

I have not commented on Helseth’s opinions nor have I referenced them, yet you are trying push them on me.

Just for kicks I thought I would see what spamming head shot would do in unranked. I killed no one, the other team made fun of me in map chat, and my teammates told me to go hotjoin. True story.

Have you tried Traiting into Impact Disruption or equipping Daredevil to begin with?

Lordrosicky.5813:

Pi is the best trait in the game.

Pretty sure “Dash” is a lot better than PI. With the exception of a few traits, which make or break complete builds or even classes (e.g. elemental bastion, monk’s focus, sleight of hand, there are probably some more I can’t think of atm), dropping any trait and replacing it with dash is major upgrade.
The reason why hardly anyone complains about is probably because IMS access is over the top in general, as any non dh class has at least 25% ims without actually investing anything meaningful (rune, weapon, trait/utility that is not the best option anyway) into it.

edit: To the whole debate: People complain about passive stun breaks because the player doesn’t have to actively do anything but they fail to realize that skills and traits like PI, plague sending and plague signet have an equally passive component, with the difference that the opposing player does not have control over when to trigger it.

Their mere presence puts pressure onto the opposing player. Players have to play around head shot regardless of whether you use it or not. Obviously this is not necessarily bad and exists in another games as well e.g. all of the gw1 interrupts or nyx assassin’s spiked carapace in dota2. It simply leads to mind games, which is good. However, a problem arises if the cost of the skill/trait, that has to be preemtively counterplayed, is too low compared to the cost of counterplaying it.

While head shot costs 4 initiative, it also is on a 0 second cool down. This takes away the usual option of fake casting/canceling casts to bait out the skill and then using your own skill, because you actually have to bait out 3 head shots in a row, before you can cast something. This is not your usual mind game where you have a 50:50 chance and if you win, you will be able to cast but one where you have to consecutively and quickly win three 50:50 mind games in a row. This issue can also not be solved by an internal cool down, the cool down would have to be on head shot.

Obviously you can use a comparatively long defensive cool down to ensure that you get a skill through. However, since you trade your cool down only for the opportunity to cast but not for an actual resource (your opponent sees that you have stab/projectile block up, thus is not going to invest anything), this is only an option for key skills such as your heal.

Chapell.1346:

Have you tried Traiting into Impact Disruption or equipping Daredevil to begin with?

Was this to me? Of course I did. It was a joke as much as this thread is.

Crinn.7864:

Azukas.1426:

But you are also assuming the thief’s enemy is stupid enough to not know how to counter PI.

You’re assuming all classes even have the capability to handle PI. Some classes’s only option when dealing with a thief is to keel over and die.

You are literally pushing your own point w/out the full picture in mind. In the grand scheme of things thief and PI is perfectly balanced, and in most cases thief remains underpowered. Now if you all want to quote Senor Helseth you have to remember he’s basing his opinion off his duels vs a staff thief.

I have not commented on Helseth’s opinions nor have I referenced them, yet you are trying push them on me.

Qbind stow weapon and break LOS

Those,are available to all classes.

Again address my original post before continuing because until you disprove that this entire discussion is over.

Reading might help. He has addressed both your points already, although his comment towards los is debatable.

That was an interesting read to page 6

Here is a few things I would like to point :

• Why jump right to nerf thread before a “How to avoid interrupt and PI proc from a thief ?” thread. An educative, community friendly thread ? Anyone out there ?

• Have you ever seen a thief vs thief duel ? It’s all about who can predict the action of the other. Yes stowing/not attacking is one of those actions. I don’t know why other classes can’t imagine doing that mind work as well.

• Getting a good interrupt with a thief means reading the animations, learning the other class mechanics. Shouldn’t that work be rewarded ? Punishing a necro spamming AA on scepter is a side effect. d/p thief is more or less not allowed to AA in a team fight because of AOE spam and squishiness. Is it a bad design to have an inverse mirror situation for other classes ?

• Is killing an ele after 4 well timed interrupts balanced or a good design ? That’s open to discussion…

I’m not against modifying PI. But it also means thief needs other counter plays to passive invuln / pulsing stab and 4 sec blocks. I feel like boon stripping rending shade from shadow art was an attempt to do that. Unfortunately, SA traitline is not worth considering in the current state of pvp.

Well timed interrupts should be rewarded. The problem is that you are currently not rewarded for good timing, but for using head shot as much as possible, because every ability in the game triggers PI.
You should be rewarded for interrupting the correct skills, not for interrupting “something”.

Erzian.5218:

Well timed interrupts should be rewarded. The problem is that you are currently not rewarded for good timing, but for using head shot as much as possible, because every ability in the game triggers PI.
You should be rewarded for interrupting the correct skills, not for interrupting “something”.

An interrupt is an interrupt. It a lot harder to pull have then having Confusion trigger extra damage just because a person does “something”.

To another poster who claimed this as a passive. That simply wrong at so many levels. Virtually every trait we have adds to something else. That is the part of the function of traits.

Executioner ADDS 20 percent extra damage when a persons health under 50 percent. You still have to get the person there but it certainly a bonus.

Death from above ADDS a launch to persons in an area where a warrior falls. It also can be traited with “distracting strikes” to add confusion to any in that area that were interrupted.

I can go through every class and give dozens of these in the traitlines. If it wrong to have damage added because a person interrupts another after having chosing a trait to allow this, then all of those others are wrong as well.

There only one class that has any real issues with PI as most others have blocks. stabilty , invulns and reflects to deal with it in abundance which forces even more careful timing on the part of the theif so as not to waste INI. That all the damge comes only AFTER an interrupt makes it much more important for a thief to time interrupts properly when relying on this trait then it does other classes as wasted INI affects all other weapon skill availability outside the AA.

The skill is fine.

Wargameur.6950:

• Getting a good interrupt with a thief means reading the animations, learning the other class mechanics. Shouldn’t that work be rewarded ? Punishing a necro spamming AA on scepter is a side effect. d/p thief is more or less not allowed to AA in a team fight because of AOE spam and squishiness. Is it a bad design to have an inverse mirror situation for other classes ?

This thread continually takes me back. These arguments. This one for example is the exact same one that came up because of how thieves SPAM their AA for massive damage an no ill effect. The problem? Power Block on Mesmer was being used to counter that with interrupt damage and putting the spam on CD. Tsk Tsk.

Of course we all know that interrupts are largely useless against thieves unlike everybody else. Why? So much insta cast, insta teleport, engaging from LoS, not to mention stealth etc etc.

It’s hilarious to see thieves now trying to defend their kitten against people telling them this exact same thing is out of hand.

Thieves, forever broken as kitten.

FYI: Headshot is the least of a thieves interrupt capabilities. Arguably it’s one of their worst XD

Ross Biddle.2367:

Wargameur.6950:

• Getting a good interrupt with a thief means reading the animations, learning the other class mechanics. Shouldn’t that work be rewarded ? Punishing a necro spamming AA on scepter is a side effect. d/p thief is more or less not allowed to AA in a team fight because of AOE spam and squishiness. Is it a bad design to have an inverse mirror situation for other classes ?

This thread continually takes me back. These arguments. This one for example is the exact same one that came up because of how thieves SPAM their AA for massive damage an no ill effect. The problem? Power Block on Mesmer was being used to counter that with interrupt damage and putting the spam on CD. Tsk Tsk.

Of course we all know that interrupts are largely useless against thieves unlike everybody else. Why? So much insta cast, insta teleport, engaging from LoS, not to mention stealth etc etc.

It’s hilarious to see thieves now trying to defend their kitten against people telling them this exact same thing is out of hand.

Thieves, forever broken as kitten.

FYI: Headshot is the least of a thieves interrupt capabilities. Arguably it’s one of their worst XD

I believe it was the cool down increase part that was removed from auto attacks and it wasn’t just thieves that were affected or complained. I’m pretty sure you can proc the damage part of power block and weakness from autos. Having said that power blocks damage needs power, precision and ferocity while I’d only requires power to do similar damage.

apharma.3741:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Wargameur.6950:

• Getting a good interrupt with a thief means reading the animations, learning the other class mechanics. Shouldn’t that work be rewarded ? Punishing a necro spamming AA on scepter is a side effect. d/p thief is more or less not allowed to AA in a team fight because of AOE spam and squishiness. Is it a bad design to have an inverse mirror situation for other classes ?

This thread continually takes me back. These arguments. This one for example is the exact same one that came up because of how thieves SPAM their AA for massive damage an no ill effect. The problem? Power Block on Mesmer was being used to counter that with interrupt damage and putting the spam on CD. Tsk Tsk.

Of course we all know that interrupts are largely useless against thieves unlike everybody else. Why? So much insta cast, insta teleport, engaging from LoS, not to mention stealth etc etc.

It’s hilarious to see thieves now trying to defend their kitten against people telling them this exact same thing is out of hand.

Thieves, forever broken as kitten.

FYI: Headshot is the least of a thieves interrupt capabilities. Arguably it’s one of their worst XD

I believe it was the cool down increase part that was removed from auto attacks and it wasn’t just thieves that were affected or complained. I’m pretty sure you can proc the damage part of power block and weakness from autos. Having said that power blocks damage needs power, precision and ferocity while I’d only requires power to do similar damage.

True, the damage is still there. But the arguments in this thread are the same. The true difference is (wait for it, it’s the same kitten since release!) Thief initiative system, skill spam, Steal feature overloading, their unique mechanics! (insta cast, teleport, mobility, bla bla bla)

Ross Biddle.2367:

apharma.3741:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Wargameur.6950:

• Getting a good interrupt with a thief means reading the animations, learning the other class mechanics. Shouldn’t that work be rewarded ? Punishing a necro spamming AA on scepter is a side effect. d/p thief is more or less not allowed to AA in a team fight because of AOE spam and squishiness. Is it a bad design to have an inverse mirror situation for other classes ?

This thread continually takes me back. These arguments. This one for example is the exact same one that came up because of how thieves SPAM their AA for massive damage an no ill effect. The problem? Power Block on Mesmer was being used to counter that with interrupt damage and putting the spam on CD. Tsk Tsk.

Of course we all know that interrupts are largely useless against thieves unlike everybody else. Why? So much insta cast, insta teleport, engaging from LoS, not to mention stealth etc etc.

It’s hilarious to see thieves now trying to defend their kitten against people telling them this exact same thing is out of hand.

Thieves, forever broken as kitten.

FYI: Headshot is the least of a thieves interrupt capabilities. Arguably it’s one of their worst XD

I believe it was the cool down increase part that was removed from auto attacks and it wasn’t just thieves that were affected or complained. I’m pretty sure you can proc the damage part of power block and weakness from autos. Having said that power blocks damage needs power, precision and ferocity while I’d only requires power to do similar damage.

True, the damage is still there. But the arguments in this thread are the same. The true difference is (wait for it, it’s the same kitten since release!) Thief initiative system, skill spam, Steal feature overloading, their unique mechanics! (insta cast, teleport, mobility, bla bla bla)

Yeah I get what you’re saying, there just isn’t that much of a cost to using headshot, it costs 4s of a thieves time. When a mesmer uses their interrupts to get damage there is a safe period afterwards where they have no way to proc the trait or it’s tied to something with its own inbuilt counterplay, casting a mantra.

This just isn’t really there to the same extent on thief as the cost is so low compared to 25-40s cool downs that a mesmer has on these skills or they’re on weapon sets that lower a mesmers in combat abilities. Yes I know they technically have sword offhand but I can count on a fingerless hand the number of times I’ve seen that used or been effective in any way. The thief has to give up what? The choice of condi cleanse on dodge and that’s it, good thing they’re immune to all soft CC then!

Mesmers have zero reason to fear thieves in meta vs meta.

If u fight a thief using PI I know he has no condi clear. As long as your smart you can out play the thief.

Now a Bounding staff thief that clears condi on evade is a different story, but that’s clearly not meta and has zero impact on this dead thread since no PI is used.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Cynz.9437:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Irrelevant. besides. 2 thief comp is most likely really good in ranked.

The problem is there are many builds and classes which cannot exist because of A SINGLE TRAIT. Everytime I die…I would say like 50% of them are to thieves. And then I look at kill feed. Its 12k PI procs. 3 procs for 12k……Not to mention the easy 8k backstabs with no counter play.

You can’t do anything against it short of not casting spells. If you dont cast spells you die anyway. Mesmer and warrior might also be really strong but it isn’t even comparable.

Want to play damage ele? Nope, PI. Want to play damage mesmer? Nope, PI. Want to play condi necro? Nope, PI. Want to play power ranger? Nope, PI.

As for thieves moaning about killing too slow. Like really? You still kill an ele 1v1 easily. It takes like 30 seconds. Do you need to 1 shot everything or something?

The whole game is miserable because of passive 12k damage from instant cast ranged dazes. Headshot is amazing without PI. It can interrupt anything. Now with PI you add massive damage to this amazing skill.

This thief spec, I have heard, is also the easiest to play. Lastly, this isn’t some top tier thing. My rating is 1900 before decay and when levelling up there were 1500 rated thieves who caused me serious issues purely due to PI passive procs with zero counter play. You already have 9k backstabs and auto attacks that hit like a warrior….

This is the most OP build I have seen in my 2 years playing this game.

- 2 thieves is not a good comp given same skill level across 2 teams. It is guaranteed loss.
- Many builds that can’t exist because of a single trait? Like what. Give me some examples. Of course you would die a lot to thieves, you are a necro, a thief would be dumb not to focus you. You know what my death log looks like on scrapper? Poison, torment, burning, etc. By your logic necros need hefty nerfs because as a scrapper i might as well afk at spawn if enemy has a necro.

- 3 Pi for 12k ? It is 4k PI per proc, it usually hits for 3k on a good day, please post screenshot of that death log. Once again, i take more damage from necro weapon swap alone than PI will ever do. 8k backstab on necro? How? Did you afk or something? 8k backstab on a necro is not happening unless you have crapload of vulnerability on you and thief has might stacks. Given how necro applies weakness 24/7 i don’t see 8k backstabs happening. Also, backstab has plenty of counters…. (blocks, blinds, invuls, protection, etc.).

- FA ele doesn.t fail because of PI, FA ele dies to literary everything in this meta. Nobody played thieves in s1, where were all those FA eles? RRrrright, nobody played them despite thieves not existing in pvp.

- Actually people play dps mes, it is just not as good as condi build atm. Once again, when thieves didn’t exist in s1, nobody bothered playing shatter – your point is

- HS can’t interrupt everything due to reflects, stab, blocks, blinds etc. 3k is hardly a massive dmg…. especially on tanky builds like druid.

- then why don’t you play it when it is so easy? Go play that “easy” spec, post some videos of your epic plays, in plat please.

- once again, you play necro, there is a class that counters you, deal with it. Also, there are counters to PI, it is your choice not to use them.

- so which is it 8k backstabs or 9k lol? The number seems to increase with every line you type lol.

- yeaaaah, too bad thief doesn’t have sustain of a warrior and can stay in melee only for like 2 sec.

- pretty sure revs at HoT launch were more broken lol. Also, you clearly didn’t experience dhumfire necros xD

This was a good try though, Henry. I wouldn’t bite but certain people take it really serious.

@apharma.3741: assuming same skill level and everyone running meta, i am pretty sure double thief team is more at disadvantage than double mes or double necro comp. You may win some fights but thief is simply not capable of holding point and points win games.

Come on dude. I know that you know thief is op and pi in particular is broken. Look what they did to dhuumfire. They nerfed it into oblivion. Your best bet would be to argue for how to nerf pi but not make it worthless. By saying its not op you lose credibility.

Maybe a 15% damage reduction? Maybe a ten second icd? The trait would still be good in both cases.

I would nerf the dps by 15% and make it not proc on auto attacks. This nerf might not be enough, but it would be a start towards fixing the game.

I wouldnt know about hot revs as i have only played gw2 hot for 5 weeks

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/ALL-Thieves-are-so-bad-at-rotating/first#post6463644

After reading that thread I can honestly see why you have a problem with PI.

Its not the trait being broken in any form