It is funny that nobody is disturbed that chill has absolutely zero effect during a fight on a Thief (while he is teleporting all the time to his enemy and pays no penalty for resource generation or cooldowns) and absolutely destroys the Ele.
Only effect chill has on Thief he walks slowly away after killing somebody if he is not using the short bow.
I am and thats why they should add short cd’s on thief utility skills like for example inf arrow 2cd, headshot 5cd. Not olny chill would affect them this way but also mesmer finally could interrupt their key skills and have a more balanced matchup vs thieves. It would tone down thief to a more balanced line by adding some counterplay without breaking the class. Chill affecting ini will destroy them and i am against such change. We need to make all classes viable, destroying one class to bring up rest inst the way to go.
Breaking Aegis while in stealth does not reveal the exact location of the thief. You will have a general idea of where he is but never exactly, so your counter to the stealth attack will always “hope for the best” since you can’t see the thief. Did the thief BS and repositioned then watched you try to counter wasting CD’s like an idiot? Maybe…
Stealth vs Invul:
Totally agree with you. Please make invul/distortion break after missing/block/etc but reduce CD to 9 secs. Also make it last up to 15 secs. /shrug
Only 2 classes can do full damage while being invul; X/F ele and Mesmer. Two classes/builds that the thief pushes out of the meta. So please tell me more about this “uncounterability….” you speak of.
Mobility:
Fine with it other than bypassing walls, floors, stairs etc.
stealth is fine, we just need more reveal abilities like sic ’em, which needs a massive buff btw. wards would be interesting. these would add counterplay.
Thief is too strong in my opinion have too much stealth and teleport. When i fight thief and beat his sorry kitten he run away come back 5s with full health and kill me in one hit (i think with his backstab but im not sure)
Something must be done arena net !!! This class is destroying your game !!!
Skills that add a reveal debuff seem more like a hard counter than real counterplay. Sic’em isn’t used to respond to anything the thief is doing. It’s used pre-emptively to completely shut down the stealth mechanic. I don’t think we should have more of these types of skills.
Instead, making it so that a stealthed character pops out of stealth when his attack is dodged/blinded/blocked (w/o reveal debuff) would add more room for meaningful counterplay from both the stealthed character and the non-stealthed character.
The typical I got facerolled so nerf the class post.
Dont read my post? I say i beat his sry kitten but he can just teleport away regen come back and kill me. Balance? Where is balance with thief profession??
Sic’em isn’t used to respond to anything the thief is doing. It’s used pre-emptively to completely shut down the stealth mechanic.
sic ‘em isn’t used. I like reveal though. it shuts down the stealth mechanic temporarily forcing the thief to use mobility to get out. if mobility skills are on CD or no initiative, then tough cookie, he’s done. no thief should have mobility AND stealth up at all times, which is the situation now. im not saying that makes thieves horribly OP, but simply that good ones cant be counterplayed, period.
These threads just keep coming… Okay so you beat a thief to low health and they ran off then came back with full health. Any other class can do the same without running off (thus wasting time) and continue to beat you into a pulp.
The typical I got facerolled so nerf the class post.
Dont read my post? I say i beat his sry kitten but he can just teleport away regen come back and kill me. Balance? Where is balance with thief profession??
sounds like you didn’t beat him dude. sounds like you lost.
stealth disengages, and just disengages in general are a sensible thing to do in pvp, especially if you can come back with more health/cooldowns and win. you are more useful to your team not dead in most situations (sometimes you need to contest, but not always and not on a zerker).
. Engi & Warr . Beta > 2017 Death of PvP
currently a Boyfriend main :P Waiting To ReRoll Mystic & Forget About Tyria
These threads just keep coming… Okay so you beat a thief to low health and they ran off then came back with full health. Any other class can do the same without running off (thus wasting time) and continue to beat you into a pulp.
/thread
All dat necro mobility and sustain! Roar.
High Warlord Sikari (80 Reaper) / Lord Siekron (80 DH)
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)
Here’s a thought that I’d like some opinions on. As some of you should likely know I main a thief. The other class I play a lot is Necromancer but I enjoy Thief more.
One of the new things ANet has added as a tool is a Method call for OnEvadeAttack() or something like that. (I’m just guessing they are using some sort of Object Oriented programming and that seems like a logical name for it.) Now going in mind with the “you can’t make all the people happy all the time” part of customer service in an MMO you simply have to find some sort of middle ground. Some people think stealth shouldn’t be a mechanic and hate while some people love it as a mechanic which means it will remain. Removal of it entirely as a mechanic is just simply not going to happen. Now since the game can now proc things on successful evade things can be done with it. (Also keep in mind for you Mesmer there is a trait coming up where a successful evade means that next BS will be reflected back at the Thief,… OUCH!… how’s that for ccounterplay?)
How about stealth is removed but not add Revealed? Why not add Revealed? Because Revealed is for a successful attack to get rid of the BS > CnD > BS > CnD > BS chains which is by all means very fair. However in return is it possible then that stealth then successfully evades channeled attacks as well as bouncing attacks? People talk about counterplay to stealth but what about stealth as counterplay to channeled attacks. Should Blinding Powders then work to successfully end eating all that damage from homing missile RF? Seems fair enough to me if people think that being able to BS multiple times during the short span of stealth is unfair then channeled attacks still finding their mark even after Stealth + Dodge roll is equally unfair.
Thief is fine and doesn’t need a nerf any more than they need a buff.
If you have trouble with thieves please visit your class specific thread and make a post for solutions.
aka FalseLights Rank: Top 250 since Season 2 #5 best gerdien in wurld
Thief is fine and doesn’t need a nerf any more than they need a buff.
If you have trouble with thieves please visit your class specific thread and make a post for solutions.
A lot of people in this thread have problem with thief you think they all noob and need to l2p? No if so many people have problem its clearly because thief is very op it need massive nerf.
I hope a net fix this broken class it’s destroying pvp
@shadow
The counter play to channeled skills is interrupting it (steal/pistol4) before you stealth, considering you already are latched onto before you stealth, so that’s how I sort of see it. But anyways.
I agree, if it just removed stealth with no reveal I’d be okay with that, seems fair to me.
My biggest issue isn’t base stealth generally anyways, though. Really, SA just needs to be made more active and less of a reset build because that’s what makes it garbage (such as the ideas I threw out before that make it work with successful stealth attacks and other effects from coming out of stealth rather than directly benefitting while in stealth).
High Warlord Sikari (80 Reaper) / Lord Siekron (80 DH)
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)
@shadow
The counter play to channeled skills is interrupting it (steal/pistol4) before you stealth, considering you already are latched onto before you stealth, so that’s how I sort of see it. But anyways.
I agree, if it just removed stealth with no reveal I’d be okay with that, seems fair to me.
My biggest issue isn’t base stealth generally anyways, though. Really, SA just needs to be made more active and less of a reset build because that’s what makes it garbage (such as the ideas I threw out before that make it work with successful stealth attacks and other effects from coming out of stealth rather than directly benefitting while in stealth).
Sometimes it hits right as you go into stealth and then it also depends on range, LB Ranger can be at twice the range of pistol 4/steal too.
Also, look at what you just said. the counterplay to channeled ability is to play better and use your available skills. Seems to me that is what people who are saying to use movement, timing and prediction, ie. playing better and using your available skills.
@shadow
The counter play to channeled skills is interrupting it (steal/pistol4) before you stealth, considering you already are latched onto before you stealth, so that’s how I sort of see it. But anyways.
I agree, if it just removed stealth with no reveal I’d be okay with that, seems fair to me.
My biggest issue isn’t base stealth generally anyways, though. Really, SA just needs to be made more active and less of a reset build because that’s what makes it garbage (such as the ideas I threw out before that make it work with successful stealth attacks and other effects from coming out of stealth rather than directly benefitting while in stealth).
Sometimes it hits right as you go into stealth and then it also depends on range, LB Ranger can be at twice the range of pistol 4/steal too.
Also, look at what you just said. the counterplay to channeled ability is to play better and use your available skills. Seems to me that is what people who are saying to use movement, timing and prediction, ie. playing better and using your available skills.
A channeled skill isnt as much about prediction as it at least is started prior. Maybe the answer is to have Rapid fire have a bit of a pre-cast before it machine guns. Several channel skills do have some sort of minor wind up. I would totally be in support of that across the board, but that’d be work on the Devs part. No argument here, though.
High Warlord Sikari (80 Reaper) / Lord Siekron (80 DH)
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)
The difference is that you can see the channeled skills being activated. And once you counterplay (dodge/block/los/interrupt) them, they go on a cooldown and can’t be re-used until the cooldown resets. Stealth sneak attacks don’t have any of these limitations.
But I agree with ending stealth on a dodge/block/blind without adding any reveal debuff. I honestly don’t even think this would affect thieves in many situations (i.e. when they’re +1ing to gank). It makes the biggest difference for those situations where the guy knows you’re backstabbing, and he dodges it, but you still have enough time left in stealth to backstab again so he has to burn another dodge. (Not everyone can just AOE their feet in response to a missed backstab).
The difference is that you can see the channeled skills being activated. And once you counterplay (dodge/block/los/interrupt) them, they go on a cooldown and can’t be re-used until the cooldown resets. Stealth doesn’t have any of these limitations.
But I agree with ending stealth on a dodge/block/blind without adding any reveal debuff. I honestly don’t even think this would affect thieves in many situations (i.e. when they’re +1ing to gank). It makes the biggest difference for those situations where the guy knows you’re backstabbing, and he dodges it, but you still have enough time left in stealth to backstab again so he has to burn another dodge. (Not everyone can just AOE their feet in response to a missed backstab).
You know you make a really good point about interrupts and being able to see channeled skills being cast and it made think about something. BS is the real issue it seems, that and the whole resetting fights. The way I see the resetting fights is it works both ways. The thief heals up some, though the heal from SR is means staying in an area outlined as the thief is here with 5 pulses for 1865 which gives 9325 health but being kept to a general area. Still nothing stops the other class from healing and during that time the thief is sitting in stealth after SR, up to 15 seconds, the opponents skills are cooling down.
Yet back to the BS and stealth not going back onto some sort of CD or being uninterruptible so I logged in just to test this and found that BP has a cast time of 1/2 seconds before the blind is applied. It also has one of the most unique sounds and creates a field around the thief before the animation is finished for the long ranged blind to be applied. Then HS must be used so for that combo it can be interrupted and cost initiative which basically translates as to thief weapon CDs. CnD has a 1/2 second cast time and very noticeable animation. SR has a 1/4 second cast time and I have had it interrupted and put on CD on me more than once. Blinding Powders is instant but it does come with a CD. (I’m not really able to test it right now but I seem to remember that interrupting thief weapon skills does make them go on that same global CD when they are dazed but not 100% sure on that. I could be wrong.) When a backstab is evaded by a dodge roll then that is a 1/4 second animation plus the time to travel by foot or by IS (Signet active w/CD) or Steal(CD) or trying to SS and hit the backstab before the bullet connects but that is not very feasible at that range before the stealth wears off. So you basically made me realize that interrupts/dodges are also a counterplay to stealth as well so I take back the idea about ending stealth on an evaded attack because channeled attacks that last longer than the evade time still continue to do damage.
The difference is that you can see the channeled skills being activated. And once you counterplay (dodge/block/los/interrupt) them, they go on a cooldown and can’t be re-used until the cooldown resets. Stealth doesn’t have any of these limitations.
But I agree with ending stealth on a dodge/block/blind without adding any reveal debuff. I honestly don’t even think this would affect thieves in many situations (i.e. when they’re +1ing to gank). It makes the biggest difference for those situations where the guy knows you’re backstabbing, and he dodges it, but you still have enough time left in stealth to backstab again so he has to burn another dodge. (Not everyone can just AOE their feet in response to a missed backstab).
You know you make a really good point about interrupts and being able to see channeled skills being cast and it made think about something. BS is the real issue it seems, that and the whole resetting fights. The way I see the resetting fights is it works both ways. The thief heals up some, though the heal from SR is means staying in an area outlined as the thief is here with 5 pulses for 1865 which gives 9325 health but being kept to a general area. Still nothing stops the other class from healing and during that time the thief is sitting in stealth after SR, up to 15 seconds, the opponents skills are cooling down.
Yet back to the BS and stealth not going back onto some sort of CD or being uninterruptible so I logged in just to test this and found that BP has a cast time of 1/2 seconds before the blind is applied. It also has one of the most unique sounds and creates a field around the thief before the animation is finished for the long ranged blind to be applied. Then HS must be used so for that combo it can be interrupted and cost initiative which basically translates as to thief weapon CDs. CnD has a 1/2 second cast time and very noticeable animation. SR has a 1/4 second cast time and I have had it interrupted and put on CD on me more than once. Blinding Powders is instant but it does come with a CD. (I’m not really able to test it right now but I seem to remember that interrupting thief weapon skills does make them go on that same global CD when they are dazed but not 100% sure on that. I could be wrong.) When a backstab is evaded by a dodge roll then that is a 1/4 second animation plus the time to travel by foot or by IS (Signet active w/CD) or Steal(CD) or trying to SS and hit the backstab before the bullet connects but that is not very feasible at that range before the stealth wears off. So you basically made me realize that interrupts/dodges are also a counterplay to stealth as well so I take back the idea about ending stealth on an evaded attack because channeled attacks that last longer than the evade time still continue to do damage.
… trying to SS and hit the backstab before the bullet connects but that is not very feasible at that range before the stealth wears off. So you basically made me realize that interrupts/dodges are also a counterplay to stealth as well so I take back the idea about ending stealth on an evaded attack because channeled attacks that last longer than the evade time still continue to do damage.
Just fyi, you don’t have to connect w/ SS before backstab wears off. The idea is you cast SS and immediately start the backstab animation while still in stealth. The animation will continue even after stealth wears off, which let’s you connect w/ the backstab.
Also, I’m not sure how you reached your conclusion with your tests. It’s not hard to get at least 2 backstab attempts off while in stealth. (Obviously you don’t do this vs every build, because some builds, i.e. engies, will nuke the ground where you were after dodging the first backstab).
No one is seriously saying that stealth has 0 counterplay (except maybe the crazies). But stealth attacks have much less counterplay than non-stealth attacks. Every “counter” you and others have described for stealth attacks applies to other attacks, except that the counters are much weaker vs stealth attacks for the many reasons I’ve previously listed.
something isnt right when you see
blockblockblockblockblockblockblockblockblockblockblock5000-7000 damage or get backstabbed from a blinded target give backstab a 2-3s cooldown upon missing that way if thief spams mindlessly his attack will be just a normal auto attack thus forcing them to play more tactical making them think between hitting that auto attack or waiting for that backstab or retreating to restealth if the stealth remaining time is low
block = attack landed but was innefective so i dont see why a block shouldnt destealth
This. So much this.
This 5ever.
This and nothing else.
If you attack in stealth, your stealth should disappear. Immediately. Doesn’t matter if it’s blocked, doesn’t matter if it’s evaded, if your finger hits anything that makes an attack (notwithstanding Stealwhen you have the appropriate trait), you need to be revealed immediately.
… trying to SS and hit the backstab before the bullet connects but that is not very feasible at that range before the stealth wears off. So you basically made me realize that interrupts/dodges are also a counterplay to stealth as well so I take back the idea about ending stealth on an evaded attack because channeled attacks that last longer than the evade time still continue to do damage.
Just fyi, you don’t have to connect w/ SS before backstab wears off. The idea is you cast SS and immediately start the backstab animation while still in stealth. The animation will continue even after stealth wears off, which let’s you connect w/ the backstab.
Also, I’m not sure how you reached your conclusion with your tests. It’s not hard to get at least 2 backstab attempts off while in stealth. (Obviously you don’t do this vs every build, because some builds, i.e. engies, will nuke the ground where you were after dodging the first backstab).
No one is seriously saying that stealth has 0 counterplay (except maybe the crazies). But stealth attacks have much less counterplay than non-stealth attacks. Every “counter” you and others have described for stealth attacks applies to other attacks, except that the counters are much weaker vs stealth attacks for the many reasons I’ve previously listed.
I meant the BS + SS at that range wasn’t very feasible. Getting 2 chances at backstab is feasible yes however it can be counterplayed by evade and moving.
Now here’s the thing and yolo swagginz makes a very good point are you asking for more counterplay to stealth or more counterplay to backstab? The counterplay to stealth is the same as other things, interrupt when you see someone casting BP + HS or CnD or SR.
Counterplay to backstab and counterplay to stealth are not the same thing exactly.
The difference is that you can see the channeled skills being activated. And once you counterplay (dodge/block/los/interrupt) them, they go on a cooldown and can’t be re-used until the cooldown resets. Stealth doesn’t have any of these limitations.
But I agree with ending stealth on a dodge/block/blind without adding any reveal debuff. I honestly don’t even think this would affect thieves in many situations (i.e. when they’re +1ing to gank). It makes the biggest difference for those situations where the guy knows you’re backstabbing, and he dodges it, but you still have enough time left in stealth to backstab again so he has to burn another dodge. (Not everyone can just AOE their feet in response to a missed backstab).
You know you make a really good point about interrupts and being able to see channeled skills being cast and it made think about something. BS is the real issue it seems, that and the whole resetting fights. The way I see the resetting fights is it works both ways. The thief heals up some, though the heal from SR is means staying in an area outlined as the thief is here with 5 pulses for 1865 which gives 9325 health but being kept to a general area. Still nothing stops the other class from healing and during that time the thief is sitting in stealth after SR, up to 15 seconds, the opponents skills are cooling down.
Yet back to the BS and stealth not going back onto some sort of CD or being uninterruptible so I logged in just to test this and found that BP has a cast time of 1/2 seconds before the blind is applied. It also has one of the most unique sounds and creates a field around the thief before the animation is finished for the long ranged blind to be applied. Then HS must be used so for that combo it can be interrupted and cost initiative which basically translates as to thief weapon CDs. CnD has a 1/2 second cast time and very noticeable animation. SR has a 1/4 second cast time and I have had it interrupted and put on CD on me more than once. Blinding Powders is instant but it does come with a CD. (I’m not really able to test it right now but I seem to remember that interrupting thief weapon skills does make them go on that same global CD when they are dazed but not 100% sure on that. I could be wrong.) When a backstab is evaded by a dodge roll then that is a 1/4 second animation plus the time to travel by foot or by IS (Signet active w/CD) or Steal(CD) or trying to SS and hit the backstab before the bullet connects but that is not very feasible at that range before the stealth wears off. So you basically made me realize that interrupts/dodges are also a counterplay to stealth as well so I take back the idea about ending stealth on an evaded attack because channeled attacks that last longer than the evade time still continue to do damage.
Stopped reading at SR heals for 9,3k health…
In the meantime every AoE possible is being thrown at you as it pulses for 1.8k over 5 seconds. It’s not 9.3k immediately.
Why is this thread not locked? Nine pages of ignorant kitten kissing and ad Populum not enough for a lock? I knew this thread was going to be non-constructive the moment I read the title and whaddayaknow, it got really stupid on the first page.
The OP might want some discussion but the people who agree with him don’t. lol
This thread isn’t any worse than that “Nerf Thief” thread you guys have that does nothing but direct thieves where to sabotage threads that mention thief… At least this thread has a point to it…
That thread is quite possibly the most entertaining thread on the forums. And what is the point of this thread anyway? All I see is a bunch of people who never played thief and don’t know how easy it actually is to counter one so they call for nerfs.
Okay fine, let’s remove stealth, and while we’re at it, all invulnerabilities and blocks, protection and ranger pets (because they’re annoying). Then we’ll have a bunch of professions that are all similar to one another. Fun fun.
Why? The reveal on missed stealth attack affects mesmer too, not just thief. And it is a legit concern.
What about invulnerability? Much more powerful a tool than stealth, and something the mesmer for instance has in addition to stealth.
“This thread isn’t any worse than that “Nerf Thief”
I was just answering this comment by saying this isn’t just abut thief. Invuln is indeed strong, but that doesn’t concern the subject i was talking about. Personally i think the game would have been better if the invulns from the start were desgined as for example guardian renewed focus- no attacks during it.
… trying to SS and hit the backstab before the bullet connects but that is not very feasible at that range before the stealth wears off. So you basically made me realize that interrupts/dodges are also a counterplay to stealth as well so I take back the idea about ending stealth on an evaded attack because channeled attacks that last longer than the evade time still continue to do damage.
Just fyi, you don’t have to connect w/ SS before backstab wears off. The idea is you cast SS and immediately start the backstab animation while still in stealth. The animation will continue even after stealth wears off, which let’s you connect w/ the backstab.
Also, I’m not sure how you reached your conclusion with your tests. It’s not hard to get at least 2 backstab attempts off while in stealth. (Obviously you don’t do this vs every build, because some builds, i.e. engies, will nuke the ground where you were after dodging the first backstab).
No one is seriously saying that stealth has 0 counterplay (except maybe the crazies). But stealth attacks have much less counterplay than non-stealth attacks. Every “counter” you and others have described for stealth attacks applies to other attacks, except that the counters are much weaker vs stealth attacks for the many reasons I’ve previously listed.
I meant the BS + SS at that range wasn’t very feasible. Getting 2 chances at backstab is feasible yes however it can be counterplayed by evade and moving.
Now here’s the thing and yolo swagginz makes a very good point are you asking for more counterplay to stealth or more counterplay to backstab? The counterplay to stealth is the same as other things, interrupt when you see someone casting BP + HS or CnD or SR.
Counterplay to backstab and counterplay to stealth are not the same thing exactly.
I think I’ve made it pretty clear what I’m asking for: popping out of stealth (without revealed debuff) when your attack gets dodged/blocked/blinded (but not if you merely use a skill on the ground, so you can still use mobility skills while stealthed, for example). Not sure why you’re trying to make this only about stealth, or only about backstab. It obviously would affect all attacks while stealthed.
Also, your point about “counterplaying” two sneak attacks is kind of self-defeating. If the best counterplay you came up with was to burn two dodges/CDs, then you know something is wrong. It’d be like if you made it so a warrior who misses eviscerate gets the cooldown reset and max adrenaline so he can immediately retry, and then told the other player, “well, you can just dodge again! counterplay!”
I think the problem in your reasoning is that you’re asking the wrong question, “is there counterplay,” rather than the right one: “is the available counterplay balanced in terms of risk/reward, compared to the counterplay that’s available for other mechanics in the game”?
The combination of Vampirism Rune + Improvisation is a little too much imho, basically a thief can do many mistakes and be carried by RNG + invulnerability and reset the fight, until he can do a good spike, mostly depending on sigils proc.
… trying to SS and hit the backstab before the bullet connects but that is not very feasible at that range before the stealth wears off. So you basically made me realize that interrupts/dodges are also a counterplay to stealth as well so I take back the idea about ending stealth on an evaded attack because channeled attacks that last longer than the evade time still continue to do damage.
Just fyi, you don’t have to connect w/ SS before backstab wears off. The idea is you cast SS and immediately start the backstab animation while still in stealth. The animation will continue even after stealth wears off, which let’s you connect w/ the backstab.
Also, I’m not sure how you reached your conclusion with your tests. It’s not hard to get at least 2 backstab attempts off while in stealth. (Obviously you don’t do this vs every build, because some builds, i.e. engies, will nuke the ground where you were after dodging the first backstab).
No one is seriously saying that stealth has 0 counterplay (except maybe the crazies). But stealth attacks have much less counterplay than non-stealth attacks. Every “counter” you and others have described for stealth attacks applies to other attacks, except that the counters are much weaker vs stealth attacks for the many reasons I’ve previously listed.
I meant the BS + SS at that range wasn’t very feasible. Getting 2 chances at backstab is feasible yes however it can be counterplayed by evade and moving.
Now here’s the thing and yolo swagginz makes a very good point are you asking for more counterplay to stealth or more counterplay to backstab? The counterplay to stealth is the same as other things, interrupt when you see someone casting BP + HS or CnD or SR.
Counterplay to backstab and counterplay to stealth are not the same thing exactly.
I think I’ve made it pretty clear what I’m asking for: popping out of stealth (without revealed debuff) when your attack gets dodged/blocked/blinded (but not if you merely use a skill on the ground, so you can still use mobility skills while stealthed, for example). Not sure why you’re trying to make this only about stealth, or only about backstab. It obviously would affect all attacks while stealthed.
Also, your point about “counterplaying” two sneak attacks is kind of self-defeating. If the best counterplay you came up with was to burn two dodges/CDs, then you know something is wrong. It’d be like if you made it so a warrior who misses eviscerate gets the cooldown reset and max adrenaline so he can immediately retry, and then told the other player, “well, you can just dodge again! counterplay!”
I think the problem in your reasoning is that you’re asking the wrong question, “is there counterplay,” rather than the right one: “is the available counterplay balanced in terms of risk/reward, compared to the counterplay that’s available for other mechanics in the game”?
Again I return to the point you made that made me change my mind from agreeing with you that channeled skills like RF (which does a lot more damage than BS + Sigil Proc) is to dodge twice or counter with an interrupt as soon as it starts. I was with you on the revealing out of stealth until you made the point that “to stop those things do this” which I then applied to stealth attacks. So in answer to your question, yes it does have the same amount of counter play as some other mechanics in the game.
The combination of Vampirism Rune + Improvisation is a little too much imho, basically a thief can do many mistakes and be carried by RNG + invulnerability and reset the fight, until he can do a good spike, mostly depending on sigils proc.
Play a thief for a week and see just how many mistakes you can make before you’re toast.
The combination of Vampirism Rune + Improvisation is a little too much imho, basically a thief can do many mistakes and be carried by RNG + invulnerability and reset the fight, until he can do a good spike, mostly depending on sigils proc.
That’s just runes and sigils having too much effect on balance as usual. You’re not mistake free but you do see the difference.
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140 The Dhuumfire thread
The combination of Vampirism Rune + Improvisation is a little too much imho, basically a thief can do many mistakes and be carried by RNG + invulnerability and reset the fight, until he can do a good spike, mostly depending on sigils proc.
That’s just runes and sigils having too much effect on balance as usual.
Yeah personally I wish they would get rid of the Air and Fire sigils even though I use them. I didn’t at first but when I saw how much damage other thieves were doing to me compared to what I was doing to them and asked one how they did it. Part of what they told me was to use those sigils for the extra damage. I could not use them but really those sigils have pigeonholed people running zerk builds to have to use them or be worthless.
If you attack in stealth, your stealth should disappear. Immediately. Doesn’t matter if it’s blocked, doesn’t matter if it’s evaded, if your finger hits anything that makes an attack (notwithstanding Stealwhen you have the appropriate trait), you need to be revealed immediately.
End of story.
Ok, wait. I’m in favor of nerfing stealth or adding some counterplay to it. But totally and absolutely neureting stealth entirely is not the way to go. With your proposal, 50% of the thieves would just play S/D, the other half would just quit altogether or reroll another class.
They should get revealed if their attack from stealth gets blinded, blocked, evaded, etc.
They should get revealed once stealth ends, regadless whether they attack or not to prevent stealth camping.
There should be some class skills that apply AoE reveal, skills that actually reveal the thief instead of preventing the stealth.
They shouldn’t get revealed if they hit thin air, that would be too much.
The combination of Vampirism Rune + Improvisation is a little too much imho, basically a thief can do many mistakes and be carried by RNG + invulnerability and reset the fight, until he can do a good spike, mostly depending on sigils proc.
That’s just runes and sigils having too much effect on balance as usual.
Yeah personally I wish they would get rid of the Air and Fire sigils even though I use them. I didn’t at first but when I saw how much damage other thieves were doing to me compared to what I was doing to them and asked one how they did it. Part of what they told me was to use those sigils for the extra damage. I could not use them but really those sigils have pigeonholed people running zerk builds to have to use them or be worthless.
It’s the same when I am on necro without geomancy sigils, I’m currently using the runes on my powermancer I haven’t planned on changing yet it’s like those runes and sigils took away from class specific abilities for the sake of customization. I would have never tried trap thief without the runes sure more love is coming for the spec but it could have a trait giving us stealth on trap use.
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140 The Dhuumfire thread
Again I return to the point you made that made me change my mind from agreeing with you that channeled skills like RF (which does a lot more damage than BS + Sigil Proc) is to dodge twice or counter with an interrupt as soon as it starts. I was with you on the revealing out of stealth until you made the point that “to stop those things do this” which I then applied to stealth attacks. So in answer to your question, yes it does have the same amount of counter play as some other mechanics in the game.
What? That makes no sense. You missed the first part, where I pointed out how you can see the RF attack coming so you know exactly when to dodge. When someone is stealthed, you don’t see the attack coming, so you have to estimate when to dodge (which is inherently less reliable). (People can also stealth out of LOS, in which case blind-dodging becomes even less reliable). You also left out the part where rapid fire has a cooldown.
Also, you also don’t have to dodge twice vs RF, one dodge makes the rest of it do as much damage as an autoattack.
Again I return to the point you made that made me change my mind from agreeing with you that channeled skills like RF (which does a lot more damage than BS + Sigil Proc) is to dodge twice or counter with an interrupt as soon as it starts. I was with you on the revealing out of stealth until you made the point that “to stop those things do this” which I then applied to stealth attacks. So in answer to your question, yes it does have the same amount of counter play as some other mechanics in the game.
What? That makes no sense. You missed the first part, where I pointed out how you can see the RF attack coming so you know exactly when to dodge. When someone is stealthed, you don’t see the attack coming, so you have to estimate when to dodge (which is inherently less reliable). (People can also stealth out of LOS, in which case blind-dodging becomes even less reliable). You also left out the part where rapid fire has a cooldown.
Also, you also don’t have to dodge twice vs RF, one dodge makes the rest of it do as much damage as an autoattack.
No I got that part and that’s when I realized that just about every way to gain stealth has a tell too and that can be interrupted which is a counter to it. Either way we will just have to agree to disagree on this. It’s not like it really matters if we convince one another anyways. The final decision is with the game designers and since they have merged these threads they obviously have paid attention to it. They will make changes or not depending on their own decisions and testing.
My last part on this because it really is just getting to be a ridiculous thread is that the Thieves are defending stealth as it is for the most part because without it the class is just a lack luster melee class with 12-14k hp and almost no armor. That doesn’t make it as OP as some of the people are thinking. Stealth or not they are still paper and the best counterplay to stealth attacks is to go with the best defense is a good offense strategy.
Again I return to the point you made that made me change my mind from agreeing with you that channeled skills like RF (which does a lot more damage than BS + Sigil Proc) is to dodge twice or counter with an interrupt as soon as it starts. I was with you on the revealing out of stealth until you made the point that “to stop those things do this” which I then applied to stealth attacks. So in answer to your question, yes it does have the same amount of counter play as some other mechanics in the game.
What? That makes no sense. You missed the first part, where I pointed out how you can see the RF attack coming so you know exactly when to dodge. When someone is stealthed, you don’t see the attack coming, so you have to estimate when to dodge (which is inherently less reliable). (People can also stealth out of LOS, in which case blind-dodging becomes even less reliable). You also left out the part where rapid fire has a cooldown.
Also, you also don’t have to dodge twice vs RF, one dodge makes the rest of it do as much damage as an autoattack.
No I got that part and that’s when I realized that just about every way to gain stealth has a tell too and that can be interrupted which is a counter to it. Either way we will just have to agree to disagree on this. It’s not like it really matters if we convince one another anyways. The final decision is with the game designers and since they have merged these threads they obviously have paid attention to it. They will make changes or not depending on their own decisions and testing.
My last part on this because it really is just getting to be a ridiculous thread is that the Thieves are defending stealth as it is for the most part because without it the class is just a lack luster melee class with 12-14k hp and almost no armor. That doesn’t make it as OP as some of the people are thinking. Stealth or not they are still paper and the best counterplay to stealth attacks is to go with the best defense is a good offense strategy.
nope. I had a game last night where I stealthed out of LOS and hit a ranger with overcharged shot right up the kitten . trust me he could not have seen it coming.
. Engi & Warr . Beta > 2017 Death of PvP
currently a Boyfriend main :P Waiting To ReRoll Mystic & Forget About Tyria
Thief is fine and doesn’t need a nerf any more than they need a buff.
If you have trouble with thieves please visit your class specific thread and make a post for solutions.
A lot of people in this thread have problem with thief you think they all noob and need to l2p? No if so many people have problem its clearly because thief is very op it need massive nerf.
I hope a net fix this broken class it’s destroying pvp
A few of them, yea. Just the ones who’ve never played a thief yet scream nerf when they see a backstab land.
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Why is this thread not locked? Nine pages of ignorant kitten kissing and ad Populum not enough for a lock? I knew this thread was going to be non-constructive the moment I read the title and whaddayaknow, it got really stupid on the first page.
The OP might want some discussion but the people who agree with him don’t. lol
This thread isn’t any worse than that “Nerf Thief” thread you guys have that does nothing but direct thieves where to sabotage threads that mention thief… At least this thread has a point to it…
That thread is quite possibly the most entertaining thread on the forums. And what is the point of this thread anyway? All I see is a bunch of people who never played thief and don’t know how easy it actually is to counter one so they call for nerfs.
Okay fine, let’s remove stealth, and while we’re at it, all invulnerabilities and blocks, protection and ranger pets (because they’re annoying). Then we’ll have a bunch of professions that are all similar to one another. Fun fun.
Why? The reveal on missed stealth attack affects mesmer too, not just thief. And it is a legit concern.
What about invulnerability? Much more powerful a tool than stealth, and something the mesmer for instance has in addition to stealth.
“This thread isn’t any worse than that “Nerf Thief”
I was just answering this comment by saying this isn’t just abut thief. Invuln is indeed strong, but that doesn’t concern the subject i was talking about. Personally i think the game would have been better if the invulns from the start were desgined as for example guardian renewed focus- no attacks during it.
This thread isn’t just about thief? Then why is it labeled ‘we need more counterplay to thief stealth’? I don’t see why you people are here complaining about stealth on thief while the warriors and rangers can attack and stomp people whilst taking 0 dmg. We need invulnerability removal first, then we can discuss changes to stealth. Prioritities. There are more glaring issues in game, and imo stealth isn’t even one of them.
this thread is about thief, thief stealth and stealth in general. rangers and warriors have no invul skills, the only true invul skills in the game are obsidian flesh and distortion and i rarely see people complaining about them because well.. who cares about ele focus, and people don’t seem to have many problems with the mesmer invul it seems.
Ex player of PeanutButterJellyTime, Heavenly Annoying and Visceral Gaming.
I don’t get it why you guys are so hellbent on revealed on block.
It makes absolutely zero sense. You are currently crying from a class that requires a lot of player focus to play right. If ANet actually makes this change, not only the good ones, every thief will wait out your blocks in stealth. And you’ll still get humiliated.
blocks are generally on a long cooldown, so being able to make them useless without getting punished makes some block users angry, also gotta view it this way. then again some block skills are unbalanced so if block revealed they should also balance certain blocks.
Ex player of PeanutButterJellyTime, Heavenly Annoying and Visceral Gaming.
blocks are generally on a long cooldown, so being able to make them useless without getting punished makes some block users angry, also gotta view it this way. then again some block skills are unbalanced so if block revealed they should also balance certain blocks.
Idk what the matter is really. If you start blocking i’ll auto-attack you until its gone anyway. Its how the game works. Why does it matter if the thief gets revealed or not. Most blocks last longer than the revealed debuff. Chances are, even revealed the thief will stealth back as soon as ur block is over….
it’s more about aegis than blocks, aegis blocks 1 attack and is most of the time on a 30-40s cooldown or more, so if they make it that hitting aegis counts as dealing damage and therefore reveals the thief it would be fairer as it is now because you can just remove it and backstab again. doing this for normal blocks is well.. not that helpful because you can just sit them out. the problem with sitting out skills comes from the easy access to stealth. while mesmers can already do this with decoy or torch it’s even easier for a thief whose stealth “cooldown” is lower than a mesmer’s.
there’s a lot of problems with aegis anyway, it’s useless against ai builds, bad against mesmer clones and so on.
Ex player of PeanutButterJellyTime, Heavenly Annoying and Visceral Gaming.
it’s more about aegis than blocks, aegis blocks 1 attack and is most of the time on a 30-40s cooldown or more, so if they make it that hitting aegis counts as dealing damage and therefore reveals the thief it would be fairer as it is now because you can just remove it and backstab again. doing this for normal blocks is well.. not that helpful because you can just sit them out. the problem with sitting out skills comes from the easy access to stealth. while mesmers can already do this with decoy or torch it’s even easier for a thief whose stealth “cooldown” is lower than a mesmer’s.
there’s a lot of problems with aegis anyway, it’s useless against ai builds, bad against mesmer clones and so on.
So …. basically guardians o.O that btw are the Thief’s *hard*counter are complaining about being unable to fight thieves? Well excuse me, this thread is a huge waste of my time then.
the problem with that is that it gives away the location of the thief, same as condition damage. if you wanna do that you can just blur the outlines of the stealthed thief lol.
not only guardians have aegis, and guardians are the longer the less hard counters to thieves.
tbh i don’t think there is a proper way of balancing thieves. it’s the overall class design that would have to change completely. as somebody mentioned before, thieves need the revenant treatment with short cooldowns on skills but with a higher initiative regeneration. that way initiative doesn’t need to be affected by chill because the short cooldowns will be. thief is getting solid defensive stuff with the patch so i guess with a bit of fine tuning this would definitely work out if the devs put a bit of effort into it.
hello karl.
Ex player of PeanutButterJellyTime, Heavenly Annoying and Visceral Gaming.
