Guild Wars 2

enough with the warrior qq already.

if warrior ham bow is really that good, why dun we see teams with 5 warrior hambow?

please explain that.

It is the warrior class in general which is broken. It doesnt matter for me if you take 1 or 2 warriors but warrior is so broken that teams without one dont stand a chance.

They are the main reason why foefire is over when mid is capped and they are the main reason why average games take 15 minutes now.

Sure, with mesmers, you can at least outdamage hambows from a distance but in the mean time you need to let them cap the points. Same is true for engineers (which are useless in teamfights anyways). And this is also just true for hambows. Against the cheesy axe/sword + longbow build no one can really compete (wtf…same damage as hambow + 5x torment + 5xconfusion+ 6-10k eviscerates). In addition this class is so kittening easy to learn because there is no punishment. Missing eviscerate ? Doesnt matter because cooldown is way to short and adrenalin is not consumed. This class has too much heavy burst attacks, which can let you drop from 100- 40% with 1 attack, that there must be punishment, especially when your utilities make you that tanky, even with berserk amulet.

In the end I think that it doesnt matter if you have 1 or 2 (not double hambow but 1x hambow 1x"condi"berserk) warriors but you need them in your comp. And patches in the past have proven that this “balance” patch will change nothing. Especially because rangers, engineers, necros are already kittened and didn’t receive any kind of buff (so that they are viable in competitive tpvp – I am not talking about solo q). In exchange we got the next level ele bunker just to make sure that games are even more boring to watch and harder to turn. Currently everything seems to direct into a non condi meta due to heavy condition immunity or condi cleanse (warrior, guard, ele) and this is also beneficial for direct damage classes without condi cleanses (thief, mesmer).

Edit: Wow to the warrior fanboy above me. The reason is because with the right team comp (e.g mesmer thief combo) you can still burst warriors quite easily. In addition buffs+heal from guardian are crucuial for teamfights. You need high mobility from thieves for fast decap of the enemies homepoint (or any other). Mesmer portal is always nice to have espicially when the mesmer dont have to deal with overwhelming condis (which he is prone to). Ele can bunker against classes which the warriors is weak against and in return he is not completley useless in teamfights due to might stacking. And tbh for average tpvp I think a 5 man warrior team would work and bring you at least to top100.

KarsaiB.9475:

Darek.1836:

people don’t realize just how strong the double warrior is.
Don’t forget that APeX beat 55HP 2-1 in a scrimm (on NA servers), including a game on legacy that was 70-500.

As you said, it was on NA. Not taking anything away from Apex’s performance ; we failed our opening on legacy and couldn’t come back after this. We said gg at 70-200 something and stopped playing at this point. You can ask them about that. On kyhlo, it was impossible to dodge treb because of latency. And as you pointed out, it was 2-1.
And to finish up, it was supposed to be PRIVATE practice scrims. If you made assumptions on who is better based on practice runs, in any game, you’re making a big mistake. You have no idea how the games went and what went wrong, so be a bro and use something else to make your point.

well they did say they messed up badly on the forest matchup , but yes I understand the latency which is why I mentioned the servers

As I said, it was supposed to be a private scrimming session, in preparation of the ToL EU that was to take place the following day.

We clearly specified before our games that we’d like to keep quiet about it, no matter how it went.
From what I’ve understood, some of the Apex team members bragged about after those games (check out that mature and modest behaviour), leading in pretty much the whole community knowing about them, and mentionning those all over the place as if it was a fact : Apex beat Monks 2-1 on NA servers, hence Apex is better than Monks, that kind of jazz. Blu even mentionned it in front of 2k viewers on the ToL NA semi-finals stream yday etc.

Don’t get me wrong, people can say and think what they want, but referring to training sessions they should never have heard of in the first place to rate a team, especially considering the latency issues, is infuriating and unfair.

We, as a team, agree, and I’m sure you will understand, can not abide such a disrespectful approach. As such, while it saddens us, we will not scrim Apex in the future, unless we’re provided with sufficient, honest explanations and apologies.

55 HP Monks.

Rom.4536:

To be frank, it is a reason why us in TCG does not run double hambow. 1, it is cheesy. But 2, it is not OP. It is surely counterable. I read a few comments here about “because that class or spec didnt reach finals obviously it needs buff or what not” or “look at final teams obviously WAR needs nerf”.

I bet they could have pracced with only 1 WAR also and probably hit the finals anyways.

People seem to be so harsh at judging a mere 10days since a huge patch that made a lot of impact on both gameplay such as theorycraft.

I can tell you already that I didnt see anybody using the most “OP” things yet on ToL NA. We The Civilized Gentlemen didnt find our complete perfected line-up with builds yet. We already noticed a lot of other things that we didnt even use in the EU ToL just a few days after.

I’m simply stating, stop being so drastic in judgement and basing all of your ideas off of this ToL in NA. Some talk about buffs and nerfs like thats the answer to your issues. Its fun how people just cant stand maybe not being as superior as you they think they are. Simply train with mates and become better instead of shoving the NERF-towel into the winners face.

Ding ding ding ding….. give this man a cookie.

Jekkt.6045:

ive been observing this now since the day of the balance patch when i revived my old d/d ele. the celestial build is in a very nice spot right now, if played skillfully you can win the majority of 1vs1 fights.

guess against which class i struggle the most? – hambow war

So your class/build dominates 7 out of 8 classes, and you’re upset it doesn’t god mode dominate all 8.

Logic like this is why spvp is broken.

Sunshine.5014:

CC in this game is too strong. With sigil of Paralyzation, a double hambow can disable/immobilize a team almost constantly. If the other team run out of stability, it’s a death sentence.

And 2 necros can fear spamm someone to death..What..is..your..point ?

Romek.4201:

no – bigger nodes make it only easier for bunkers and wannabe bunkers jsut running in circles forever

only thing to nerf bunkers would be to tick the cap for the team with more players on node
so when a bunker wanna bunker it forever just bring 2 ppl and decap

but dont know when this would be fun

Didn’t I basically say in my post I think the cap should be going to the side with the most players on the mode a la Battlefield? In fact most capture point game modes do things with way. The ones that do things like GW2 typically have a low time to kill so they get away with it.

EDIT: On another note, it doesn’t make sense to be discussing balance based on this tourney. A very, very small number of players compete on that level. What’s most important when it comes to balancing is what the majority of players who play SoloQ and TPvP experience. The meta in those situations is totally different than what we saw in the ToL. This might be for many reasons such as not wanting to mess around with a new composition so close to a tourney, or maybe nobody wanted to switch classes and play Engi. I mention Engi because I encounter 2 of them in organized TPvP way more often then I encounter double War. The most nightmareish comp I encountered was 1 Condi Engi, 1 Fear Spam Necro, 1 knock back rifle Engi, 1 S/D Thief, and a Bunker Guard. They pretty much sapped your will to play because it was so frustrating to fight. The condis lock you down while the Thief consantly evades and picks away at targets while the rifle Engi uses their Supply drop on another point and repeatedly pushes whoever is there. I’m sure it’s beatable but after the first few minutes several players just lost the will to try.

I’ll take diminishing returns on control skills if we also get a cap on how much hp/s you can lose to conditions at a time. At least then you would be discouraged from running more than 1 condition based spec in a comp, similar to GW1. With that + larger nodes and no anti-capping PvP might be more interesting to watch.

Karsaib get them to come EU for a scrim, see how a double hambow bunker comp with zero mobility fairs over here.

Lopez.7369:

BurrTheKing.8571:

I think many of you are looking at this from the wrong angle. It’s not the Warrior, or any one class/spec, that that is to blame. What’s wrong with PvP is that we have tiny little capture points and the fact that one tanky player can totally deny the cap of 2 or more players.

This design means that AoE and tanky builds are going to be prevalent. Hambow wouldn’t be that great if the capture point wasn’t so small. The same goes for condi necros and engis. If the points were larger the builds would still be good, but avoidable without leaving the point. I’m also not a fan of one player being able to deny the cap of 2+. It should definitely slow the progress by a large amount but it being able to stall indefinitely is not a mechanic I’m a fan of.

The playerbase seems to be pretty satisfied with where Warrior is at now. Beating on Hammer or Bow any more would just make them worthless.

That is completely inaccurate. The comp is even stronger in Legacy because it’s practically impossible to take a large point away from a full bunker team.

And considering necromancers and engineers didn’t make it to the finals, I’m not sure we should be discussing nerfing AOE or conditions right now.

Yes, larger points seem to benefit tanky comps more than anything. Even if the rules for contesting a point were changed so that one player couldn’t maintain control of a point vs. two players, that wouldn’t change. Rotation would just get even more important.

The whole “PvP is about standing in little circles” thing has been completely overblown for almost two years now. PvP is about winning fights and controlling the map. If you don’t win fights, you always lose. If you win fights by clumping together/zerging, but have no control over the map, you usually lose.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Lopez.7369:

BurrTheKing.8571:

I think many of you are looking at this from the wrong angle. It’s not the Warrior, or any one class/spec, that that is to blame. What’s wrong with PvP is that we have tiny little capture points and the fact that one tanky player can totally deny the cap of 2 or more players.

This design means that AoE and tanky builds are going to be prevalent. Hambow wouldn’t be that great if the capture point wasn’t so small. The same goes for condi necros and engis. If the points were larger the builds would still be good, but avoidable without leaving the point. I’m also not a fan of one player being able to deny the cap of 2+. It should definitely slow the progress by a large amount but it being able to stall indefinitely is not a mechanic I’m a fan of.

The playerbase seems to be pretty satisfied with where Warrior is at now. Beating on Hammer or Bow any more would just make them worthless.

That is completely inaccurate. The comp is even stronger in Legacy because it’s practically impossible to take a large point away from a full bunker team.

And considering necromancers and engineers didn’t make it to the finals, I’m not sure we should be discussing nerfing AOE or conditions right now.

Yes, larger points seem to benefit tanky comps more than anything. Even if the rules for contesting a point were changed so that one player couldn’t maintain control of a point vs. two players, that wouldn’t change. Rotation would just get even more important.

The whole “PvP is about standing in little circles” thing has been completely overblown for almost two years now. PvP is about winning fights and controlling the map. If you don’t win fights, you always lose. If you win fights by clumping together/zerging, but have no control over the map, you usually lose.

Winning those fights becomes a lot easier when you have the ability to use AoEs that cover the whole point that basically say “either leave the point or lose it.” It’s not that hard to do and it does make certain builds much more powerful than they actually are. Earthshaker is really easy to avoid in an open area, but less so on a tiny little point. The small points are also REALLY bad from a spectators PoV as well. It means you just see a crap-ton of particle effects in one spot, in addition to tiny little rat-men that have harder to read animations.

Controlling the map is much easier when one player can delay the cap from 2 or more players for a significant amount of time. I also see no issue with rotations being more important because then it makes teamwork OP rather than “X class OP.”

ANet has made a lot of mistakes with PvP. They didn’t put much focus on it when it was the main thing in GW1 for the longest time. They tried to force Esports, which has never worked out. All you can do is make a solid game and hope people want to play competitively. No big Esports game that I can think of came to be because of the developers, the scene came from the players THEN the devs encouraged it. There’s also STILL no mention of GvG in a game who’s predecessor was pretty much built from the group up for. GW1 had Random Arenas, Team Arenas, Hall of Heroes, GvG, Alliance Battles, Jade Quarry, Fort Aspenwood…you get the idea. Sure, they didn’t all exist at launch but what was there was much more solid in design than what we currently have.

If Anet would revert the changes to hammer over the past year (increase the damage back to where it was; make it so staggering blow and hammer shock root the user once again; and increase the after cast delay on all the hammer skills back to where it used to be), hammer would stop being a face-rolling CC spam weapon and go back to being a tactical skill-based weapon with high risk and high reward. Right now it’s got little/no risk and high reward.

Edit: For those who didn’t play the game before hammer was overbuffed, it used to require actual timing and anticipation to land CCs due to them rooting the user and the high after cast delay. Getting hit with hammer hurt, but it was possible to avoid the CC spam with dodges + kiting without requiring stability since the warrior had to stand still for the big attacks.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Winning those fights becomes a lot easier when you have the ability to use AoEs that cover the whole point that basically say “either leave the point or lose it.” It’s not that hard to do and it does make certain builds much more powerful than they actually are. Earthshaker is really easy to avoid in an open area, but less so on a tiny little point. The small points are also REALLY bad from a spectators PoV as well. It means you just see a crap-ton of particle effects in one spot, in addition to tiny little rat-men that have harder to read animations.

Controlling the map is much easier when one player can delay the cap from 2 or more players for a significant amount of time. I also see no issue with rotations being more important because then it makes teamwork OP rather than “X class OP.”

ANet has made a lot of mistakes with PvP. They didn’t put much focus on it when it was the main thing in GW1 for the longest time. They tried to force Esports, which has never worked out. All you can do is make a solid game and hope people want to play competitively. No big Esports game that I can think of came to be because of the developers, the scene came from the players THEN the devs encouraged it. There’s also STILL no mention of GvG in a game who’s predecessor was pretty much built from the group up for. GW1 had Random Arenas, Team Arenas, Hall of Heroes, GvG, Alliance Battles, Jade Quarry, Fort Aspenwood…you get the idea. Sure, they didn’t all exist at launch but what was there was much more solid in design than what we currently have.

Yeah, I hear ya. GvG groups would probably not want warriors using earthshaker, really. Too easy to avoid. And AoE in general would likely be less useful.

jk, jk.

Having a ton of game modes would be cool, but I don’t think it follows to blame balance problems on conquest. Mistakes have been made, Asura are too small, etc, etc. I never mentioned any of that. I’m not even concerned about warrior balance.

I just don’t understand the whole conquest=bunker=aoe thing. I think bunkers and AoE would be even more useful in TDM, for example.

infantrydiv.1620:

Phaeton.9582:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

It’s not OP, just very easy to play.

infantrydiv.1620:

vincecontix.1264:

Yes its a viable build for wars but its not really over the top. Other classes can bring just as much to the table and strength runes are available to all classes.

No, strength runes are not ‘available’ to other classes since they don’t have firefields and blast finishers on a 7 second cooldown.

Elementalists have waaaaay more than soldiers axe, which is a better build IMO.

Elementalists also have to rotate properly, and dont have complete immunity to damage periodically.

Yes they do. Focus 5 with earth. Mist form.

I think hammer is too strong right now with how long the CC is. Warriors don’t have 3000 toughness and if focused correctly can be torn apart, especially by conditions. Conditions after beserker stance is the death of a warrior that is just loaded up by them.

tichorum.2415:

infantrydiv.1620:

Phaeton.9582:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

It’s not OP, just very easy to play.

infantrydiv.1620:

vincecontix.1264:

Yes its a viable build for wars but its not really over the top. Other classes can bring just as much to the table and strength runes are available to all classes.

No, strength runes are not ‘available’ to other classes since they don’t have firefields and blast finishers on a 7 second cooldown.

Elementalists have waaaaay more than soldiers axe, which is a better build IMO.

Elementalists also have to rotate properly, and dont have complete immunity to damage periodically.

Yes they do. Focus 5 with earth. Mist form.

I think hammer is too strong right now with how long the CC is. Warriors don’t have 3000 toughness and if focused correctly can be torn apart, especially by conditions. Conditions after beserker stance is the death of a warrior that is just loaded up by them.

Also to note, Warrior has ZERO pure immunity skills like Mist Form and Elixir S. They has Stances that reduce the damage or duration of a specific source to 0. You can still use control skills and conditions on someone using Endure Pain, you can still use direct damage and control when Berserker’s Stance is up. Immunity skills do not allow you to be even HIT by anything. If they use multiple stances at once then they are going to be really vulnerable when they end.

It’s annoying to see people saying things about a class that are just flat out WRONG and Warrior gets this more than most. I think Hammer is fine. You can only do a full rotation once every 25-30 seconds due to Backbreaker. You avoid the combo ONCE and you have enough time to mount a good counter attack. You KNOW the combo is coming and it has a really obvious rotation. It can be more difficult to see coming in team fights but that applies to pretty much everything. I actually like Soldier Axe/LB more now because it’s tougher, still hits hard, and all of Axe’s attacks are combo finishers which lets you apply more burning. Not to mention one well-timed Eviscerate means dead Thief where as any moderately competent one can avoid hammer.

Using focus while defending a point means you just gave it up. It’s only good when you attack someone on the node.

Props to KarsaiB and ROM for speaking the truth.

As far as the 55 HP Monks vs. Apex – of course the team on the home server would win, even if they aren’t as good. I have no doubt that 55’s team comp and team synergy would win, even with latency issues, if given more chance. Its unfortunate that egos got in the way here. Also, are you sure you weren’t running your super-secret new 4-ele meta team?

ROM is clearly speaking the truth! People here are not exploring many of the trait combos, runes, and sigils that just came out to find out what is strongest. I can almost guarantee there is something game-changingly strong that hasn’t been explored yet.

Top EU teams are good enough to laugh at this kind of comp, I am sure.

Call for nerfs when all options have been explored and there is no counter. Look for the answer yourself before then.

Romek.4201:

Kagamiku.9731:

Hambow is only strong because the only game-type benefits a warriors earthshaker or burning firefields. There should be more game modes, warrior is fine where it is.

no

just look in wvw and all this wannabe GvG guilds – they all exploit hammer warrior to aoe stun targets and do imba dmg on stunned targets

i said it months ago – the only OP thing is the trait to do more dmg on stunend targets

a bunkerish build dont has to do dmg and should be nerfed to bunker guardian niveau

bye

edit: oh same for engineers too and necro – when go bunker you should not allowed to do dmg

That only works because they can perma-CC a whole guild when there are five or more hambow warriors in the same spot. That’s not the case in Spvp, where you will see two of them at most in any one point. Warriors are far from OP solo.

New game mode is the only thing Spvp needs.

KarsaiB.9475:

As I said, it was supposed to be a private scrimming session, in preparation of the ToL EU that was to take place the following day.

We clearly specified before our games that we’d like to keep quiet about it, no matter how it went.
From what I’ve understood, some of the Apex team members bragged about after those games (check out that mature and modest behaviour), leading in pretty much the whole community knowing about them, and mentionning those all over the place as if it was a fact : Apex beat Monks 2-1 on NA servers, hence Apex is better than Monks, that kind of jazz. Blu even mentionned it in front of 2k viewers on the ToL NA semi-finals stream yday etc.

Don’t get me wrong, people can say and think what they want, but referring to training sessions they should never have heard of in the first place to rate a team, especially considering the latency issues, is infuriating and unfair.

We, as a team, agree, and I’m sure you will understand, can not abide such a disrespectful approach. As such, while it saddens us, we will not scrim Apex in the future, unless we’re provided with sufficient, honest explanations and apologies.

55 HP Monks.

I would like to comment on this. If anyone is to blame it is probably me due to the fact some people knew about the upcoming scrim due to me asking for extra NA acc’s to borrow. There are other things that may have contributed so I take full blame on how it might have gotten out. I also wanted to talk to you guys about that because I also did not expect Blu or anyone to be mentioning it on stream or anything at all. I mean it was constantly reiterated. I may have forgotten how much of a drama hole NA is so if you guys want to talk to anyone and be mad at anyone it should be me for not taking better precautions. Mail me in game and I do wish you guys the sincerest apologies. People also say things to make it seem a lot more dramatic than it really is so that is also why you should talk to me and not listen to what others have to say.

Hambow might not be the strongest thing around. But is still too plain.

As a warrior, I can say all this faceroll-oriented balance definetely is

Rom.4536:

To be frank, it is a reason why us in TCG does not run double hambow. 1, it is cheesy. But 2, it is not OP. It is surely counterable. I read a few comments here about “because that class or spec didnt reach finals obviously it needs buff or what not” or “look at final teams obviously WAR needs nerf”.

I bet they could have pracced with only 1 WAR also and probably hit the finals anyways.

People seem to be so harsh at judging a mere 10days since a huge patch that made a lot of impact on both gameplay such as theorycraft.

I can tell you already that I didnt see anybody using the most “OP” things yet on ToL NA. We The Civilized Gentlemen didnt find our complete perfected line-up with builds yet. We already noticed a lot of other things that we didnt even use in the EU ToL just a few days after.

I’m simply stating, stop being so drastic in judgement and basing all of your ideas off of this ToL in NA. Some talk about buffs and nerfs like thats the answer to your issues. Its fun how people just cant stand maybe not being as superior as you they think they are. Simply train with mates and become better instead of shoving the NERF-towel into the winners face.

Best post in this thread!

Since my opinion is that this is the best post we should discuss if this is “OP” . It’s possible that this post needs to be nerfed and brought in line with other posts because there must not be counters since it’s obviously the best post.

Seriously not everything needs to nerfed because it appears wrong. The key word is appears!

Rom.4536:

To be frank, it is a reason why us in TCG does not run double hambow. 1, it is cheesy. But 2, it is not OP. It is surely counterable. I read a few comments here about “because that class or spec didnt reach finals obviously it needs buff or what not” or “look at final teams obviously WAR needs nerf”.

I bet they could have pracced with only 1 WAR also and probably hit the finals anyways.

People seem to be so harsh at judging a mere 10days since a huge patch that made a lot of impact on both gameplay such as theorycraft.

I can tell you already that I didnt see anybody using the most “OP” things yet on ToL NA. We The Civilized Gentlemen didnt find our complete perfected line-up with builds yet. We already noticed a lot of other things that we didnt even use in the EU ToL just a few days after.

I’m simply stating, stop being so drastic in judgement and basing all of your ideas off of this ToL in NA. Some talk about buffs and nerfs like thats the answer to your issues. Its fun how people just cant stand maybe not being as superior as you they think they are. Simply train with mates and become better instead of shoving the NERF-towel into the winners face.

The title of this thread is Double Warrior Cheese, not double hambow cheese. You had no problem trashing the EU scene with double warrior for months in Cheese Mode, right? And, if Ele wasn’t able to run celestial/might stacking, I’d suspect Denshee probably would have ran warrior in the ToL.

Until something is done about Warrior longbow in particular, all warrior meta builds will be tied to longbow, because combustive shot is too good.

And warrior’s longbow is what keeps them alive in a 1v1 situation. Without longbow warriors would be free kills for any thief/mesmer/engi and even necro with minions.

a t s e.9614:

And warrior’s longbow is what keeps them alive in a 1v1 situation. Without longbow warriors would be free kills for any thief/mesmer/engi and even necro with minions.

Thanks for admitting that warrior relies on combustive shot spam to win 1v1s against a variety of classes.

How about, we shave some of longbows power, and add it to other weapon sets for warrior, huh? Maybe this is what balancing is about, yeah? That way warriors are not pidgeonholed into running longbow to be viable.

The reason hammer warrior is so effective in tpvp is because the AoE CC takes up the entire cap point. So, you either have to sit in the point and deal with it, or fight off point. The fact that hambow is a low skill cap build doesn’t make it OP. If anything, you can exploit the fact that they may not be that experienced and pull other stuff out on them. In general, I’ve found that in tpvp most players want to stick to a set of 1-2 builds for each class, making it easy to predict their builds, and thus their play (i.e. engi’s now are mostly either balth condi spammers, or decap, though I personally prefer to run a condi bunker)

Recently, I’ve found that I can counter hambow fairly well by using a s/p+p/d venomshare thief build. It appears that the constant poison makes them much weaker, and the pistol whip hurts their skill rotations, and being able to bounce in and out of the fight helps stay away from a lot of the damage. In general, I’ve found that if you meet a group that is using cheese to win, to do something different that they cant expect.

Tl;dr; While I personally hate the hambow build, because it is just incredible cheesy, it is only cheesy for the gamemode that tpvp has. If there were more game modes, or variations of the point cap, then it wouldn’t be as big of a problem. The problem with them is the same as necro marks, guardian bubbles, etc ==> CC and AoE taking up an entire point with a bunker standing in the middle. There are counters, you just have to try to run off-“meta” builds.

Amityel.5324:

I remember when war was “that red haired step child” and team from NA who were running him and still they beated every other team comp……its not about classes its about team tactics.

Heyyoo, that was us. And for what it’s worth, I agree. Too many people during this tourny were trying to outcheese eachother that some teams I think could have easily won lost because they weren’t playing the classes and comps they were best at, but tried for EZmode cheese and lost.

KarsaiB.9475:

As I said, it was supposed to be a private scrimming session, in preparation of the ToL EU that was to take place the following day.

We clearly specified before our games that we’d like to keep quiet about it, no matter how it went.
From what I’ve understood, some of the Apex team members bragged about after those games (check out that mature and modest behaviour), leading in pretty much the whole community knowing about them, and mentionning those all over the place as if it was a fact : Apex beat Monks 2-1 on NA servers, hence Apex is better than Monks, that kind of jazz. Blu even mentionned it in front of 2k viewers on the ToL NA semi-finals stream yday etc.

Don’t get me wrong, people can say and think what they want, but referring to training sessions they should never have heard of in the first place to rate a team, especially considering the latency issues, is infuriating and unfair.

We, as a team, agree, and I’m sure you will understand, can not abide such a disrespectful approach. As such, while it saddens us, we will not scrim Apex in the future, unless we’re provided with sufficient, honest explanations and apologies.

55 HP Monks.

It is funny because I think it was you who posted multiple times the loss of CC vs the german shoutcaster team in the twitch chat of EU ToL.

infantrydiv.1620:

a t s e.9614:

And warrior’s longbow is what keeps them alive in a 1v1 situation. Without longbow warriors would be free kills for any thief/mesmer/engi and even necro with minions.

Thanks for admitting that warrior relies on combustive shot spam to win 1v1s against a variety of classes.

How about, we shave some of longbows power, and add it to other weapon sets for warrior, huh? Maybe this is what balancing is about, yeah? That way warriors are not pidgeonholed into running longbow to be viable.

How can combustive shot be a problem if other classes can spam way more condis and way longer duration? If combustive shot gets destroyed then warriors would need an insane damage buff to compensate. Because the only way I can get glass damage is by stacking might with longbow. Otherwise warrior damage without might is sub par, its not even a warrior at that point but a tanky loot bag.

HPLT.7132:

KarsaiB.9475:

As I said, it was supposed to be a private scrimming session, in preparation of the ToL EU that was to take place the following day.

We clearly specified before our games that we’d like to keep quiet about it, no matter how it went.
From what I’ve understood, some of the Apex team members bragged about after those games (check out that mature and modest behaviour), leading in pretty much the whole community knowing about them, and mentionning those all over the place as if it was a fact : Apex beat Monks 2-1 on NA servers, hence Apex is better than Monks, that kind of jazz. Blu even mentionned it in front of 2k viewers on the ToL NA semi-finals stream yday etc.

Don’t get me wrong, people can say and think what they want, but referring to training sessions they should never have heard of in the first place to rate a team, especially considering the latency issues, is infuriating and unfair.

We, as a team, agree, and I’m sure you will understand, can not abide such a disrespectful approach. As such, while it saddens us, we will not scrim Apex in the future, unless we’re provided with sufficient, honest explanations and apologies.

55 HP Monks.

It is funny because I think it was you who posted multiple times the loss of CC vs the german shoutcaster team in the twitch chat of EU ToL.

You don’t know the whole story. I did that because Super stated before all that happened that “TCG beat Monks 500 – 50 last time they faced in teamQ, blahblahblah” while we won the last 2 teamQs we played vs TCG before the tourny. Now you might not know but there’re quite alot of tensions between CC members and us, for childish reasons, on both sides. We’re very tribal towards one other, I don’t expect you to approve, but that’s what it is. At least now you know.

And some streamed teamQs in which ppl say “if we lose I quit” is nothing to do with private scrimming sessions.

Warriors are easy to play for a number of reasons, not just combustive shot. Warriors have a lot of features rolled into streamlined easily synergized packages. The rotations for every meta build are simple but effective making it easy for anyone to pick up warrior and be effective. The weapons are all pretty well designed making it possible to switch things in and out while still maintaining an overall theme. Warriors don’t have to trade away tankiness and/or mobility for damage the way that some other classes do. There are a lot of good utilities to choose from and they also synergize well with almost any conceivable build. Warriors have the best access to stability (my personal favorite boon) in the game. Current warrior mechanics/design are also well suited to take full advantage of the latest changes to the game. Sigil of intelligence/battle + strength runes fit right into how warriors are designed to function. I could go on.

Personally I don’t think warrior should be nerfed I think it should serve as the template for Anet for how to continue to model the other classes. Everything should be this easy and satisfying to play.

@KarsaiB

To add to what Morfeus said a few posts above, what happened with the private scrimmage is definitely on us, probably myself more so than the team. When we asked if we could record it on a stream and you all said it was fine, we left it unlisted and private: the only way you could see what was on it was if you had been given the direct link. We only did this so we could use it as a template for bettering the team against one of the biggest oppositions in the game. The score itself nor the contents of the stream were never given to anybody other than your team and ours, as well as one or two people in our guild. We don’t know how or why, but at some point the link got leaked and I shut the recording down immediately and hid the broadcast, deleting it as soon as I exported it to my hard drive to use for our original intention.

NA has always been a cesspool for drama (see: Manvil Rock glory days). I do not know how the shoutcasters got their hands on the results of a one-sided private scrimmage (due to the EU lag being a huge limiting factor in fights), but I apologize for us not taking the necessary action to assure that it remained private as we all wanted. Once it was stated by the shoutcasters, NA trolls went wild and blew it out of proportion, something else you deserve an apology for. If nothing else, please be reminded that because of this, we were also detrimentally affected. Our builds and splits were stolen, in part, from this leak and it did hurt us in some of the rounds in our ToL as well.

Please seek out myself or any member of the team and I’m sure we can elaborate on what happened and better come to an understanding as a united collective.

And again, the utmost of apologies to you and your team. What happened is unforgivable and we had no intentions of this occurring, both for ourselves as well as out of respect for you all.

I should also mention that any person(s) touting the results of an impromptu, one-sided private scrimmage and claiming to be a member of our guild is simply a troll and is not in any way associated with us.

ceol.9175:

If you stay in longbow the entire time, you’re gimping yourself in the fight, and that’s the only way you’re going to keep Combustive Shot up 100% of the time.

Why would you need to stay in longbow when your weapon swaps are only on a 5" cooldown (through a MINOR trait I might add!), and you also have a blast finisher on hammer? You can easily switch back to reapply the fire field when it expires.

The fact that elementalist needs to be buffed doesn’t mean warrior needs to be nerfed.

Well imho it’s a little column A, a little column B, but the point of my post wasn’t to say warriors need a nerf or eles need a buff, but just to point out that there’s a huge discrepancy between the two.

And I’m not sure what you’re talking about with elementalists not getting the same benefit from strength runes. Rarely will a warrior or an ele be able to keep 25 stacks of might up by themselves in a fight, but they will be able to have some sort of might from their combos and weapon/attunement swapping.

To reiterate, since warriors are able to generate might more easily through fire fields, they gain a lot more benefit from the +duration% bonus of strength runes, and since they have higher armour and base health trhey’re able to benefit from the might when struck bonus more often. I don’t see why it’s so difficult to get: the more might you can generate yourself, the more benefit you get from +duration% cause you end up with more might stacks. I never said that warriors can reach 25 while eles can’t, I just said that warriors get more stacks more easily, with less weapon set juggling.

Yeah, their rotations are more complex. They also offer a bit more utility. The basic hambow build doesn’t have any mobility and barely has any sort of conditions. It’s kitten-easy to dodge out of Combustive Shot and Arcing Arrow as well as half the kitten hammer skills. “B-B-But the capture point!!” Yeah? Every class has AoE skills to force people off-point.

Come on, barely any conditions? 6 bleeds, multiple sources of burns, and immobilise? All (unlike eles) on the same weapon set, and with plenty of stuns and knockdowns on the other set? And sure, everything is dodgeable but with the longbow’s (and hammer’s!) cooldowns being so short it’s impossible to dodge them all cause you run out of energy. And no other class has such a large field with 125% uptime duration! What can you possibly compare it to? In terms of damage only necro wells come close and their uptime is only 16%! Even a staff ele with blasting staff would struggle to compete with that sort of aoe!

That’s not to say that there’s anything fundamentally wrong and gamebreaking with warrior, it’s just that everything is a tiny bit too much. Every cooldown is slightly too low, adrenaline is a tad too easy to generate, etc. It’s just everything combined that ends up being overwhelming.

Anyone who doesn’t think the Fire field on longbow is broken has never had to fight in it without 400/s healing… Add to that arcing arrow and earthshaker for blast finishers to keep up a ton of might with strength runes, and you have something that is stupid easy to use but twice as strong as the next build for warrior and 5x as strong as other classes. Yes it’s beatable, everything is, but it is also MUCH harder to beat a bad hambow warrior than someone who’s good on any other class., and that’s what’s messed up.

Rarnark.5623:

I think there are much stronger comps than double war at the moment. The meta is still adjusting so double war is a pretty ‘safe’ option but I believe we’re going to see composition changes after the tournament, at least among the top teams.

Is that why you only ever play war?

Fact is wars are OP. Team with a war or two will always have better chance than a team without a war.

a t s e.9614:

And warrior’s longbow is what keeps them alive in a 1v1 situation. Without longbow warriors would be free kills for any thief/mesmer/engi and even necro with minions.

Without stealth or evades thieves would die.

Without stealth and evades and a good portal or two, mesmers would die.

Without the ability to recover significantly in fights through their healing, engineers would die.

Every class has a way to stay alive. So take away longbow so they can’t? Doesn’t add up.

infantrydiv.1620:

a t s e.9614:

And warrior’s longbow is what keeps them alive in a 1v1 situation. Without longbow warriors would be free kills for any thief/mesmer/engi and even necro with minions.

Thanks for admitting that warrior relies on combustive shot spam to win 1v1s against a variety of classes.

How about, we shave some of longbows power, and add it to other weapon sets for warrior, huh? Maybe this is what balancing is about, yeah? That way warriors are not pidgeonholed into running longbow to be viable.

what are you talking about? long bow is balanced. and has already gone through lots of power shaving.

f1 combustion shot – overall damage reduced by 15%
3 arcing arrow – overall damage reduced by 15%
5 pin down – activation time increased

the long bow is balanced, please get over it already.

quit with the unjustified nerfs to the warrior already.

Why would you care that scrim results become public??

The fact that 55 posted being upset aboot it is hilarious

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

infantrydiv.1620:

a t s e.9614:

And warrior’s longbow is what keeps them alive in a 1v1 situation. Without longbow warriors would be free kills for any thief/mesmer/engi and even necro with minions.

Thanks for admitting that warrior relies on combustive shot spam to win 1v1s against a variety of classes.

How about, we shave some of longbows power, and add it to other weapon sets for warrior, huh? Maybe this is what balancing is about, yeah? That way warriors are not pidgeonholed into running longbow to be viable.

what are you talking about? long bow is balanced. and has already gone through lots of power shaving.

f1 combustion shot – overall damage reduced by 15%
3 arcing arrow – overall damage reduced by 15%
5 pin down – activation time increased

the long bow is balanced, please get over it already.

quit with the unjustified nerfs to the warrior already.

What about massive damage increase from extra sigils and strength runes?

^

Strength runes and extra sigil slots for 2-handers does not relate solely to the warrior. You don’t nerf a class based on something any class can use. You nerf the runes or you nerf the extra sigil slot, this is common sense…

Otherwise, every warrior will need to take strength runes to be even somewhat viable, and it’s dangerously close to that point already.

Kagamiku.9731:

Strength runes and extra sigil slots for 2-handers does not relate solely to the warrior. You don’t nerf a class based on something any class can use. You nerf the runes or you nerf the extra sigil slot, this is common sense…

Otherwise, every warrior will need to take strength runes to be even somewhat viable, and it’s dangerously close to that point already.

No, you’re right, strength runes relate to warrior and elementalist, one of which was top tier before the patch, and one which was bottom tier before the patch.

Please also feel free to name any other meta spec using two two-handed weapons. The only one I can think of is hammer/staff guardian, and that’s not played very frequently

Who cares? If strength runes are your excuse for why warriors are OP, then you nerf the runes, not the warrior. Pigeonhole warriors even more into being forced to take a certain build. You’re so smart!

As for 2-handers, so? There was no issue back when 2-handers only allowed one sigil slot. The only fair thing to do would be to revert that change, or make it so that 2-handers can’t use two in pvp. Leave warrior traits as they are. They’re not whats making them “OP”. It’s so cruel of them to have two-handed weapons that are actually useful, is it not?

As a warrior player, please stop referring to Hambow as warrior. Warrior is one thing, Hambow is something entirely different. A-net didn’t get the message after the third cutbacks to the build and it is still excelling. Hambow should be its own profession in the heavies category. warrior-guardian-hambow.

Kagamiku.9731:

Who cares? If strength runes are your excuse for why warriors are OP, then you nerf the runes, not the warrior. Pigeonhole warriors even more into being forced to take a certain build. You’re so smart!

As for 2-handers, so? There was no issue back when 2-handers only allowed one sigil slot. The only fair thing to do would be to revert that change, or make it so that 2-handers can’t use two in pvp. Leave warrior traits as they are. They’re not whats making them “OP”. It’s so cruel of them to have two-handed weapons that are actually useful, is it not?

Are you deliberately avoiding confronting the logic behind my posts? Do I need to spell it out in simpler words for you?

Warriors (in particular Hambow) benefited more from the sigil changes than other classes because:

A. They use two twohanded weapons = two extra sigils, compared with 1 for most other classes
B. They have extremely fast weapon swapping meaning that they can might stack extremely easily as well

As for strength runes, they are helping ele out in the meta a lot. But, warrior did not need strength runes so be viable. In fact, warrior was still top tier right before the patch hit.

Combustive Shot has been a problem from the first patch in which Warrior saw the addition of Cleansing Ire. Why? Because Combustive Shot, on a 7 second cooldown, became extremely powerful guaranteed condition removal. All other warrior burst skills are able to be blinded or dodged. For this reason alone, until something is done about Combustive Shot, warriors will be forced to run longbow to compete.

Warriors’ weakness, when the game was released, was supposed to be conditions. Now, equipped with cleansing ire, berserker’s stance, and a massive starting health pool, warriors are juggernauts.

infantrydiv.1620:

Are you deliberately avoiding confronting the logic behind my posts? Do I need to spell it out in simpler words for you?

No, your logic is just heavily flawed.

Warriors (in particular Hambow) benefited more from the sigil changes than other classes because:

A. They use two twohanded weapons = two extra sigils, compared with 1 for most other classes

Yes, they have useful two-handed weapons, yet the weapons are not OP on their own. If you’re implying that the weapons should be nerf to compensate for the buff to sigil slots, then that is a heavily flawed argument. The source of the issue is the dual sigil slots. Of course, 1-extra sigil doesn’t make for a lot of extra damage. The best you can really hope for is 5% extra damage with sigil of force. Sigil of endurance is definitely nice for the extra dodge.

Also, it doesn’t change the fact that almost every class runs four sigils.

B. They have extremely fast weapon swapping meaning that they can might stack extremely easily as well

B proves nothing, as rune of strength is what allows them to stack might to such a degree. I revert back to nerfing the runes.

As for strength runes, they are helping ele out in the meta a lot. But, warrior did not need strength runes so be viable. In fact, warrior was still top tier right before the patch hit.

Again, you don’t nerf a class based on a runeset. If elementalists would take a hard hit from nerfing the rune, then you buff ele’s and leave Warriors as they are. Also, warriors were nerfed in the same patch that brought rune of strength and two-handed dual sigil slots. Rune of strength is the only thing keeping them a popular choice in Spvp.

Combustive Shot has been a problem from the first patch in which Warrior saw the addition of Cleansing Ire. Why? Because Combustive Shot, on a 7 second cooldown, became extremely powerful guaranteed condition removal. All other warrior burst skills are able to be blinded or dodged. For this reason alone, until something is done about Combustive Shot, warriors will be forced to run longbow to compete.

Yes, they will be forced to run longbow, because it’s the only thing keeping warriors viable. Are you suggesting a buff to other aspects of a warrior with the nerf to Longbow? Mind you, longbow has already been nerfed on multiple occasions. Apparently that’s still not enough for you.

Warriors’ weakness, when the game was released, was supposed to be conditions. Now, equipped with cleansing ire, berserker’s stance, and a massive starting health pool, warriors are juggernauts.

Their weakness is also telegraphed, easy to miss skills. If not for the small points in PvP, hammer and longbow would miss all the time. And their lack of evades or damage mitigating utilities that pretty much every other class has.

Just sayin. Topics like this, teams, strategies, diversity, and viewership can all benefit from a build clause especially for tournaments like this.

“Teams with multiple of the same class must be a total of 6 trait points in a different tree from each other member of the same class.”

BurrTheKing.8571:

What’s wrong with PvP is that we have tiny little capture points and the fact that one tanky player can totally deny the cap of 2 or more players.

Actually a bunker relies on evading damage. The bigger the point, the easier he can. The easier he evades damage, the longer he survives.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

It’s not OP, just very easy to play.

/Thread

Thanks for playing.

Vanthian.9267:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

It’s not OP, just very easy to play.

/Thread

Thanks for playing.

Was fun Ty!