Guild Wars 2

while thief needs to constantly disengage as soon as he gets hit by some random condispam

This pretty much sums up thief sPVP at the moment. And it’s not just against D/D Ele’s. Nothing quite like getting taken down to 10% health in a fight where they didn’t even know you were there.

I’m surprised this post has stuck around so long. They’ve been deleting a lot of the D/D ele complaint threads.

Jasher.6580:

Archaon.9524:

Velimere.7685:

Archaon.9524:

Velimere.7685:

Archaon.9524:

harcounter, for those who apparently can’t read or understand means “Forcing someone to disengage 1v1 or die on point with basically no chances for the other guy to win considering same skill level”

got it now? i can also make a simple drawing if needed…sorry if i didn’t explain some basic term, i forgot i was writing on forums….my bad

That’s great and all, Lad, but the rest of us were talking about a hard counter. Feel free to go back to your simple drawings now.

Just for you man…hope it helps

I’m glad you understand now, Lad. All’s that’s left is for you to understand that Celestial Signet Necromancer is a hard counter to Celestial Dagger/Dagger Elementalist.

as i already said about it…upload a best of 5 1v1s on point with celestial nec winning 3 times(At least…should be 5 if nec doesn’t mess up but 3 is kinda enough) without getting decapped

give me link and my quest would be over

That’s not going to do anything because all you’re going to say is the the Ele was bad, it was or rigged and/or say he was having an off day. You already have your mind made up. Psychology 101.

top players are not gonna stage a duel…and it’s the only way to prove your point, this or looking at a celestial nec jumping against a dd ele in esl destroying him (And trust me…it’s not gonna happen) already talked with a d/d ele friend who used to play in esl with me and “grew up” dueling kervv…and he already said that if nec plays totally flawless maybe he’s not gonna die but will never be able to kill the ele while he’s also gonna lose the point in no time cause no breakstuns and no teleport to get back on it so vs a perfect necro making absolutely no mistakes is gonna end with ele still decapping and holding it neutral and therefore already winning

That’s why, if you really believe in what you said, you must prove it…let alone you need to find a really good nec first…and i dunno in na but in eu i can name like 3 necs that imo would have a chance to survive against a top ele…proto, forsaker (But he only likes power u.u) and leman (Who already left nec as far as i know)

rchu.8945:

Ara.4569:

Exactly, hard counters shouldn’t exist. It’s just not skill based nor fun. The rock/paper/scissor balance isn’t even good for monkeys.

Before June 23rd patch, thief was a hard counter to all types of Mesmer builds. Anet let it happen, so why not now?

thief still hardcounters shatter mes (But only good thieves not those just spamming hs around) before patch any panic strike thief could kill a mes with pretty much anything no matter how good the mes was playing…before patch thief was even more than just an hardcounter, it could eat shatter mesmers alive even with HUGE skillgaps between players (Like helseth getting rekt by 90% unranked thieves while they were just randomly spamming stuff with panic strike) and that was also why mesmer was totally out of meta: before patch mesmer had no way to survive with a panic strike thief in the other team (Didn’t really matter who the thief was too)

Archaon.9524:

top players are not gonna stage a duel…and it’s the only way to prove your point, this or looking at a celestial nec jumping against a dd ele in esl destroying him (And trust me…it’s not gonna happen)

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/v/9456915

2:31:00 – watch the mid point.
And before you say that Nos had high DS, he hardly used it and could have started it with 5% with the same outcome.

Also, you completely contradicted yourself.

Archaon.9524:

thief still hardcounters shatter mes (But only good thieves not those just spamming hs around)

Archaon.9524:

To prove it’s a real hardcounter…even if a real hardcounter would be 5 out of 5

Levin does not beat Helseth 5 out of 5 times and Helseth isn’t even mechanically the best mesmer in the game.

Archaon.9524:

Yasha.5963:

Archaon.9524:

Velimere.7685:

Archaon.9524:

harcounter, for those who apparently can’t read or understand means “Forcing someone to disengage 1v1 or die on point with basically no chances for the other guy to win considering same skill level”

got it now? i can also make a simple drawing if needed…sorry if i didn’t explain some basic term, i forgot i was writing on forums….my bad

That’s great and all, Lad, but the rest of us were talking about a hard counter. Feel free to go back to your simple drawings now.

Just for you man…hope it helps

That’s great, haha. So if y= d/d ele, x = pretty much everything else?

atm yeah….pretty much

So what the kitten is the point in this thread? You ask a question, then constantly force your own answer into other people who supply different answers. Wtf.

What hard-counters every single class is knowledge and experience~

Cheers~<3

I am just happy the spotlight is finally tilting off of Mesmer.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

I am just happy the spotlight is finally tilting off of Mesmer.

Shhh Chaos, don’t attract attention!

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Archaon.9524:

top players are not gonna stage a duel…and it’s the only way to prove your point, this or looking at a celestial nec jumping against a dd ele in esl destroying him (And trust me…it’s not gonna happen)

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/v/9456915

2:31:00 – watch the mid point.
And before you say that Nos had high DS, he hardly used it and could have started it with 5% with the same outcome.

He is going to ask for 5 more examples because that situation was an outlier. Trust me. He has made up his mind.

Jasher.6580:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Archaon.9524:

top players are not gonna stage a duel…and it’s the only way to prove your point, this or looking at a celestial nec jumping against a dd ele in esl destroying him (And trust me…it’s not gonna happen)

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/v/9456915

2:31:00 – watch the mid point.
And before you say that Nos had high DS, he hardly used it and could have started it with 5% with the same outcome.

He is going to ask for 5 more examples because that situation was an outlier. Trust me. He has made up his mind.

gonna try with exact same builds, i dunno the level of that ele (I’m not na so u dunno the level of players outside abj) but i’m gonna ask the best nec i can find (Hopefully proto if he want too test it) vs some top ele and we’ll see

i’ll let you know how it ended

So much fail in this thread.

If you think a Highly skilled Cele Necro counters a Highly skilled D/D ele…..you really don’t know what your talking about. You have an idea in your head and your repeating it like a mindless parrot.

A good cele necro can destory bad ele’s but thats not what were talking about. Equal skill level is about a 50% chance of winning(what da hell is this!!! truuuth?). If you think that’s a hard counter…i wish you the best and hope you can live a normal life.

Login.5102:

So much fail in this thread.

If you think a Highly skilled Cele Necro counters a Highly skilled D/D ele…..you really don’t know what your talking about. You have an idea in your head and your repeating it like a mindless parrot.

A good cele necro can destory bad ele’s but thats not what were talking about. Equal skill level is about a 50% chance of winning(what da hell is this!!! truuuth?). If you think that’s a hard counter…i wish you the best and hope you can live a normal life.

So can you propose a counter that has a greater than 50% chance of winning in a 1v1 assuming both players are mechanically skilled with their class at a high level of play? Since right now cele necro looks like the best counter, even if its not an ideal counter, which signifies that ele is too strong.

Iavra.8510:

Your mesmer will likely lose the point, though.

No, actually it keeps going back and forth but I whittle them down much better then they me, it depends on build, i like having fields on my mes and eles don’t like sitting in them, so they’re the ones that end up losing, if they stay, they die, eventually.

Archaon.9524:

gonna try with exact same builds, i dunno the level of that ele (I’m not na so u dunno the level of players outside abj) but i’m gonna ask the best nec i can find (Hopefully proto if he want too test it) vs some top ele and we’ll see

i’ll let you know how it ended

Translation: “I’m gonna generate some false word-of-mouth and get back to you with no proof of it whatsoever to counter the actual proof that you presented.”

Necro may soft counter a d/d ele but how many other classes can soft counter the necro? Necro has way more apparent weaknesses than the Ele.

The only thing that “hard counters” anything is DS Ele vs condi. How many other classes or builds say, “can’t win, he hard counters me. I’ll just walk away.”

Only 1 exists in this game.

I don’t honestly think a “hard counter” as it’s been defined here should exist. That’s antithetical to the idea of “balance.”

Having said that, I am a not-so-great Mesmer and I can get a d/d ele, by loading them with confusion.

Ithilwen.1529:

I don’t honestly think a “hard counter” as it’s been defined here should exist. That’s antithetical to the idea of “balance.”

Having said that, I am a not-so-great Mesmer and I can get a d/d ele, by loading them with confusion.

??? that makes no sense man.

Velimere.7685:

All’s that’s left is for you to understand that Celestial Signet Necromancer is a hard counter to Celestial Dagger/Dagger Elementalist.

lolwat

Cele necro is, and I’m not even that sure about it, at most a soft counter to Cele Ele.

Frenk.5917:

Velimere.7685:

All’s that’s left is for you to understand that Celestial Signet Necromancer is a hard counter to Celestial Dagger/Dagger Elementalist.

lolwat

Cele necro is, and I’m not even that sure about it, at most a soft counter to Cele Ele.

Nope:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/v/9456915

2:31:00 – watch the mid point.
And before you say that Nos had high DS, he hardly used it and could have started it with 5% with the same outcome.

@Zoso

It makes perfect sense. Balance implies that all classes are relatively equal in power. It would have to be so because the profession mix in each match is more or less random.

Hence, having one class in a position to consistently beat another is antithetical to balance.

Ithilwen.1529:

@Zoso

It makes perfect sense. Balance implies that all classes are relatively equal in power. It would have to be so because the profession mix in each match is more or less random.

Hence, having one class in a position to consistently beat another is antithetical to balance.

So you’d rather everyone run around playing rock/paper/scissor but necros scissor is green and mesmers purple? No thanks man.

Balance and rock/paper/scissor is not exclusive if you look at build diversity over all classes. It is difficult to accieve but one of the best things you can do for a large comunity of diffrent players and skills if done right. GW2 is targeting build diversity and a game where only training/reaction/fast internet lines and computers matter is doomed to end with a very small elite.

Zoso.8279:

So you’d rather everyone run around playing rock/paper/scissor but necros scissor is green and mesmers purple? No thanks man.

He just said the exact opposite thing @@ hardcounters are the definition of rock paper scissor, your post makes no sense.

And once again, celestial necro is NOT a hardcounter to cele ele, and especially fighting on a point. You can’t judge something out of ONE duel. i’ve killed celestial elementalists in a matter of seconds (yes really), cause they just messed up their water attunment, misplays exist, even at top tier.

Gizmorage.6412:

And once again, celestial necro is NOT a hardcounter to cele ele, and especially fighting on a point. You can’t judge something out of ONE duel. i’ve killed celestial elementalists in a matter of seconds (yes really), cause they just messed up their water attunment, misplays exist, even at top tier.

Got any of these encounters of yours “at top tier” on record for us to view? Or is this strictly an anecdotal rebuttal that holds no actual weight?

Gizmorage.6412:

Zoso.8279:

So you’d rather everyone run around playing rock/paper/scissor but necros scissor is green and mesmers purple? No thanks man.

He just said the exact opposite thing @@ hardcounters are the definition of rock paper scissor, your post makes no sense.

And once again, celestial necro is NOT a hardcounter to cele ele, and especially fighting on a point. You can’t judge something out of ONE duel. i’ve killed celestial elementalists in a matter of seconds (yes really), cause they just messed up their water attunment, misplays exist, even at top tier.

v.v rock/paper/scissors on your skill bar. There is no diversity in class/build types is what I’m trying to say. The game is balanced and has diversity which is exactly where you want to have it imo.

Zoso.8279:

Gizmorage.6412:

Zoso.8279:

So you’d rather everyone run around playing rock/paper/scissor but necros scissor is green and mesmers purple? No thanks man.

He just said the exact opposite thing @@ hardcounters are the definition of rock paper scissor, your post makes no sense.

And once again, celestial necro is NOT a hardcounter to cele ele, and especially fighting on a point. You can’t judge something out of ONE duel. i’ve killed celestial elementalists in a matter of seconds (yes really), cause they just messed up their water attunment, misplays exist, even at top tier.

v.v rock/paper/scissors on your skill bar. There is no diversity in class/build types is what I’m trying to say. The game is balanced and has diversity which is exactly where you want to have it imo.

Except when teams are just stacking 2 eles.. then something is wrong. That’s what you call an enforced meta.

Velimere.7685:

Gizmorage.6412:

And once again, celestial necro is NOT a hardcounter to cele ele, and especially fighting on a point. You can’t judge something out of ONE duel. i’ve killed celestial elementalists in a matter of seconds (yes really), cause they just messed up their water attunment, misplays exist, even at top tier.

Got any of these encounters of yours “at top tier” on record for us to view? Or is this strictly an anecdotal rebuttal that holds no actual weight?

what’s that? is that the sound of someone having no other argument than one recorded duel on twitch to hold on? i can hear it buzzing.

And yes, some of them were recorded on forsaker’s twitch for example. What is there to prove anyway do you really think top tier players make no mistake? my point is, you can’t use ONE sample to judge everything. that’s just silly.

There’s also the example of two weeks ago’s go4 where nos was fighting an ele for around 3 minutes and never seemed to get him past half health. you can look it up, it was on foefire’s middle node.

BlackTruth.6813:

Zoso.8279:

Gizmorage.6412:

Zoso.8279:

So you’d rather everyone run around playing rock/paper/scissor but necros scissor is green and mesmers purple? No thanks man.

He just said the exact opposite thing @@ hardcounters are the definition of rock paper scissor, your post makes no sense.

And once again, celestial necro is NOT a hardcounter to cele ele, and especially fighting on a point. You can’t judge something out of ONE duel. i’ve killed celestial elementalists in a matter of seconds (yes really), cause they just messed up their water attunment, misplays exist, even at top tier.

v.v rock/paper/scissors on your skill bar. There is no diversity in class/build types is what I’m trying to say. The game is balanced and has diversity which is exactly where you want to have it imo.

Except when teams are just stacking 2 eles.. then something is wrong. That’s what you call an enforced meta.

This is the problem. And agreed 2 Ele and 1hr stalemate fights are boring as kitten!

Gizmorage.6412:

I don’t actually have an argument.

I’m glad we agree.

Velimere.7685:

Nope:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/v/9456915

2:31:00 – watch the mid point.
And before you say that Nos had high DS, he hardly used it and could have started it with 5% with the same outcome.

I’m not really sure about how can you think that that is a perfectly valid and irrefutable proof that Cele Necro hardcounters D/D ele…

Yes, Noscoc annihilated the ele, but can any necro always reproduce the same output? Can every necro win every duel against any D/D ele? Let’s say, with a 95% CI? Because that’s what a hardcounter is. Until that, I’ll still think cele necro is a softcounter of D/D ele, totally not a hardcounter.

We could ask noscoc to duel phantaram on point 10 times and that would answer our questions :P

I’m not sure if it means anything, but as far as AG tourney level cele necro performs extremely well especially agaisnt DD eles, the 2nd place team sassy squad kept sending their ele at me on the semifinals game I think his name was Bearly Serious.. But it didn’t go well I was able to beat any 1v1 that came to home. We lost but still.

For what it’s worth I’ve also seen Nos 1v1 the Ele named Commander in one of the tournaments too. I still wouldn’t dare call it a “hard counter”. Not even close.

Frenk.5917:

I’m not really sure about how can you think that that is a perfectly valid and irrefutable proof that Cele Necro hardcounters D/D ele…

Yes, Noscoc annihilated the ele, but can any necro always reproduce the same output? Can every necro win every duel against any D/D ele? Let’s say, with a 95% CI? Because that’s what a hardcounter is. Until that, I’ll still think cele necro is a softcounter of D/D ele, totally not a hardcounter.

We could ask noscoc to duel phantaram on point 10 times and that would answer our questions :P

Depends what we believe to be hard and soft counters.
The reason why many claim that Necromancer is the biggest Nemesis of Elementalists, is because Ele is very boon dependent.
And obviously Necro has quite a nice access to boon stripping skills.

Question I would ask, if so Necro is a hardcounter against ele, then what is thief or mesmer?

Well, thief not much in boon stripping, but can steal some nice boons and boost itself for sure.

But mesmer for sure has a handful of assets to take care of d/d ele and boon spamming.

Tao.1234:

Frenk.5917:

I’m not really sure about how can you think that that is a perfectly valid and irrefutable proof that Cele Necro hardcounters D/D ele…

Yes, Noscoc annihilated the ele, but can any necro always reproduce the same output? Can every necro win every duel against any D/D ele? Let’s say, with a 95% CI? Because that’s what a hardcounter is. Until that, I’ll still think cele necro is a softcounter of D/D ele, totally not a hardcounter.

We could ask noscoc to duel phantaram on point 10 times and that would answer our questions :P

Depends what we believe to be hard and soft counters.
The reason why many claim that Necromancer is the biggest Nemesis of Elementalists, is because Ele is very boon dependent.
And obviously Necro has quite a nice access to boon stripping skills.

Question I would ask, if so Necro is a hardcounter against ele, then what is thief or mesmer?

Well, thief not much in boon stripping, but can steal some nice boons and boost itself for sure.

But mesmer for sure has a handful of assets to take care of d/d ele and boon spamming.

Because thief doesn’t have access to the array of condition spread that necro has and also doesn’t have the ability to continually keep 20+ might like necro does in most situations unless you’re able to reliably steal that might throughout the fight, which , good luck with that.

Mesmer and thief are no where near as tanky as celestial necro is , if necro were say berserker or marauder’s with the exact same build, it would never work because the ele would out-sustain him.

I think it’s more so a coupling of multiple factors and not just the boon strip: The leeching traits/utilities along with the might stacking and survivability and condition dmg uptime not to mention the condition transfers (burning damage most importantly against an elementalist) on necro AND boon stripping is what makes necro a hard counter to ele.

Noscoc’s condi necro was already really tough for phantaram to handle but phanta would usually win most of those 1on1s because of the out-sustain and condi clear, but now with cele you have almost the same condi dmg, more survivability, more direct damage and an ability to transfer those burn stacks back to the elementalist constantly and boon stripping all in one. It makes it a pretty good counter to the standard d/d cele build overall. I mean it’s not a guaranteed win , if you do misplays you’re still going to pay for it as a cele necro it’s just that you have all the tools you need to hard counter them now with that build.

i can say we’re pretty much 50/50 celestial nec vs celestial dd ele (Still hard to keep point anyway cause nec is overall pretty bad at holding)

not even close to be a safe 1v1 but still probably the highest % for a 1v1 on point with ele

other classes will never get a 50/50 1v1ing cele dd at same skill level so looks like nec is the only one that could actually achieve something…and at least if ele messes something up and doesn’t get the kitten away he’s definately gonna die (And that’s already a good thing since most specs won’t be able to kill him even if he makes some mistakes)

I know nec viability in this meta is questionable but that’s not that important in this topic anyway, that’s a totally different problem (Aka nec sustain sux)

I can counter eles on point.
Well… 9/10 times.

Saiyan.1704:

For what it’s worth I’ve also seen Nos 1v1 the Ele named Commander in one of the tournaments too. I still wouldn’t dare call it a “hard counter”. Not even close.

Thats Olrun (Cooooomander Quaggan) and he generally runs an extra tanky spread with stone heart and melandru runes (earth/water/arcane) , so he’d be really hard to kill regardless, while not spending as much time in fire, meaning less burning to transfer. In that case the match would feel more like a stalemate until someone roates in to turn the fight.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

I am just happy the spotlight is finally tilting off of Mesmer.

and a nice bonus that the nerf is to GS and not a weapon you normally prefer on your mesmer right?

Velimere.7685:

Frenk.5917:

Velimere.7685:

All’s that’s left is for you to understand that Celestial Signet Necromancer is a hard counter to Celestial Dagger/Dagger Elementalist.

lolwat

Cele necro is, and I’m not even that sure about it, at most a soft counter to Cele Ele.

Nope:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/v/9456915

2:31:00 – watch the mid point.
And before you say that Nos had high DS, he hardly used it and could have started it with 5% with the same outcome.

Sorry, you mean the same game where OP necro was running nas’s build and was losing ground in the beginning of the game?

I’m gonna get hate for saying this… but MAYBE gs s/a melee ranger. I don’t think it should work and would laugh at anyone who says it would… but it seems to work.

Eurantien.4632:

I’m gonna get hate for saying this… but MAYBE gs s/a melee ranger. I don’t think it should work and would laugh at anyone who says it would… but it seems to work.

Fresh ideas. Me like.

gs s/a with taunt and spike trap and entangling roots and blind trait (blind doesn’t allow condi transfer now) could be strong.

Eurantien.4632:

I’m gonna get hate for saying this… but MAYBE gs s/a melee ranger. I don’t think it should work and would laugh at anyone who says it would… but it seems to work.

I’ve actually dueled one of these before, although she would swap OH axe for OH dagger depending on the situation. It was a very ludicrous duel that took several minutes, but she came out on top.

Tao.1234:

What hard-counters every single class is knowledge and experience~

Cheers~<3

Exactly. In the case of ele, that experience is to know you will lose so don’t 1v1 them.

Can we please nerf blinding ashes and burning speed already? It takes absolutely no skill.

Delete the evade from burning speed or delete blinding ashes. You can’t have EVERYTHING. ZZZ.

Like you can already teleport through ledges and have ridiculous tankiness for a class that has so much escapes. Why is this not getting fixed?

I take back what I’ve said previously. D/d ele’s are way OP and need a major nerf.

Pre-patch I had a ranger specifically for countering eles if we were going against 2 of them.

It wasn’t a popular build but it did well against eles and rejecting shoutbow warriors banner. 2/0/6/6/0.

Condi rangers have not benefited from burn damage as much as eles and guards have. The spec I ran pre patch got watered down badly.

Ignoring team composition or any kind of team play whatsoever, I’m sure a similar ranger build can be made post patch that could counter ele 1v1.

I also have problems with some rangers. Pre patch i hunted them and they could only disengage cloaked or die. Now i encounter condi rangers that kill me. So i have to be very careful ready to disengage. And when i see a necro, i usually don´t attack. Its the worst matchup for me. Next is condi mesmer. Against shatter mesmer its like a stalemate. I am not a d/d ele i use S/F but at least i have a feeling for elementalist :-).

Pimsley.3681:

Pre-patch I had a ranger specifically for countering eles if we were going against 2 of them.

It wasn’t a popular build but it did well against eles and rejecting shoutbow warriors banner. 2/0/6/6/0.

Condi rangers have not benefited from burn damage as much as eles and guards have. The spec I ran pre patch got watered down badly.

Ignoring team composition or any kind of team play whatsoever, I’m sure a similar ranger build can be made post patch that could counter ele 1v1.

LOl man, 2-0-6-6-0 was one of the post popular trait setup outhere, even LB build started to use it cus it was so defensive.
Condi rangers can kill D/D ele but now sometimes they run dimondskin which makes everything much harder.