Guild Wars 2

I simply don’t see the reasoning behind some buffing requests for necro and Mesmer.

The main complain that I see here is that once focused you die easily as Mesmer or Necro, ok so with just this said then every sane person would go and say :" OK I suggest to buff Necro and Mesmer survivability"….but hold on

The necro and Mesmer community are not asking simply for survivability buffs, they’re asking for buffs on specific builds : shatter Mesmer and Terrormancer necro

To buff the base survival of a profession is one thing, to ask for buffs on a specific build…it’s completely another matter of things.

The two builds mentioned above possess one the highest offensive potential in game and can be applied from range ( keep this in mind, we’re talking about 900-1200 range); now when you see a Mesmer or Necro in the enemy team you start to take countermeasures with your build, you cannot spec whatever and hope to win against a Necro or Mesmer

You are forced to bring with you a considerable amount of condi removal to deal with necro and substantial amount of sustain( being it dmg mitigation or avoidance) to deal with Mesmer, if they’re so weak…why do I need to even bother with counter speccing?

Basically a Mesmer or Necro left alone to free cast, we’ll wreck your team in no time.
Specifically I’m talking about shatter Mesmer and terrormancer( mind you I’m not talking about the specific professions, just these two builds)

Shatter Mesmer and Terrormancer deserve no buff whatsoever, they use trait lines that reduce the amount of self-sustain in return for huge amounts of dmg.

A shatter Mesmer can be compared to a fresh air ele, same kind of role, but the fresh ele got even less sustain by comparison

A terrormancer can be compared to a zerker staf ele ( 30 air/20 earth and 20 arcana), both try to bring mayhem to the battlefield, still the zerker staff ele can survive a fraction of the time respect to a terrormancer.

Now if I can’t open a thread asking for buffs on zerker staff and fresh air, why?….Because ele got d/d celestial build and trying to ask for (legitimate?) buffs will only give scorn, flaming and hatred in return

But remember that d/d ele does not use the same trait lines as zerker staff ele and fresh air ele, therefore what really should be buffed on Necro and Mesmer are specific traitlines, those would be : blood, chaos, inspiration, death magic.

The buffs should be enough to create a viable bunker/bruiser build for Mesmer and Necro like it is for eles.

In the end shatter and terrormancer don’t need buffs, if they do need buffs…then we need to buff all other specs in the game not built around self-sustain, because those as well get hunted down by thieves, focused and generally lack great mobility

Supreme.3164:

A shatter Mesmer can be compared to a fresh air ele, same kind of role, but the fresh ele got even less sustain by comparison

Wow, lol. Hey I heard poison does wonders, you can even get it for the cost of a single sigil on any class you like. Unfortunately I don’t get healed for spamming buttons so if I can’t #6 I’m pretty boned.

By the way none of us playing these two classes wants a lame “bruiser”/zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz snorefest build. The fact that glass vs glass is about pure reactions and mind games is exactly why we’re in love with them. We just want the reward to be consummate to the difficulty needed to play them at a high level, or at least for the painful aspects to be ironed out. To be honest I’ve played glass Mesmer so long I’d be comfortable without any buffs so long as they gave us bug fixes at this point.

Never talked about what Mesmer community desire…I’ve simply stated what should be given, whether you’ll personally like it or not, well surely is none of my concerns.

My point simply is that we cannot have a burst build with the defensive potential to match a bruiser build or even negate the role thieves excel at, because at that point then I ask for a revamped fresh air build, zerker staff and even d/f zerker

In the end whenever I use a zerker amulet on any other profession…I get hunted by thieves too, I get focused too so if a shatter Mesmer should be buffed, then all other zerker builds should be buffed too and I’m all for it my friend

Well, it’s difficult to comment on your post Supreme because it mixes different elements.

First of all, yes, a buff to useless mesmer and necro traits is a good idea, but it should be done for every profession. Anet seems to focus on balancing around the meta (which a lot of people seem happy about btw, always complaining that the meta is stale and needs adjustements), but we don’t see build diversity balance changes that often. Guardian, engineer and ranger have received some pretty nice build diversity buffs recently, and everyone seems to like them, so imo that should be the way balance is done. It’s fun, and it’s safe (never saw anyone complain about the engi’s shield buff or the ranger war horn or torch buff).

By the way, shatter mesmer can’t burst at 1200 range. It brings a rather low sustain damage for a zerker at this range. GS2 burst and sword burst (for those who play sword), as well as IP shatters, are melee bursts.

I check the necromancer forum everyday. I also main a necromancer.

To my knowledge, there is literally nobody asking for buffs to specific builds like you mentioned. My experience in the necromancer forum is the majority of people questioning the cast-times and unnecessary after-cast times that really limit us. And necromancers have been asking for blood and death magic buffs for years.

If I were you I would organize your thoughts better because you start your thread bash mesmers and necromancers (arguably the most lacking classes in PvP), then you go on to complain that nobody will listen to your zerker ele cries for help. It makes you sound incompetent and biased.

Supreme.3164:

Never talked about what Mesmer community desire…I’ve simply stated what should be given, whether you’ll personally like it or not, well surely is none of my concerns.

My point simply is that we cannot have a burst build with the defensive potential to match a bruiser build or even negate the role thieves excel at, because at that point then I ask for a revamped fresh air build, zerker staff and even d/f zerker

In the end whenever I use a zerker amulet on any other profession…I get hunted by thieves too, I get focused too so if a shatter Mesmer should be buffed, then all other zerker builds should be buffed too and I’m all for it my friend

Most of us were not in favor of the damage on greatsword being buffed over and over. (It’s almost all because of air and fire, by the way. Without those two greatsword’s ranged damage is mediocre).

Whatever else you can say about Mesmer damage, it’s completely predictable. Do you think it’s a coincidence that Mesmers never have trouble with other Mesmers themselves? But it begs the question, doesn’kitten If shatter Mesmer’s so strong and simple to play, why aren’t you out playing it right now?

As a related aside you’re “stating what should be [a] given”, okay, who the hell are you exactly? This is the very reason why message boards are useless.

And to the best of my knowledge people haven’t been requesting sustain on Necro but rather some sort of answer to the ridiculous stun-locking that goes on once you’re placed in anything more than a direct 1 v 1.

Supreme.3164:

In the end shatter and terrormancer don’t need buffs, if they do need buffs…then we need to buff all other specs in the game not built around self-sustain, because those as well get hunted down by thieves, focused and generally lack great mobility

Actually, if you read the respective threads carefully, especially the Mesmer one, you would notice that many people do agree that other zerker classes do indeed get hunted down by thieves, and that they deserve some time in the limelight too. S/F Ele was one of the prime examples of another build pushed to the fringes of the meta by thieves. So yea, completely agree with you there that other berserker classes need some love as well.

The reason the situation is a lot more serious for Necros and Mesmers (and rangers) is because terrormancer and shatter mesmer are the ONLY viable builds at high-end organized play (not talking about solo queue here where you play against people who don’t seem to know how mesmers or terrormancers work). If you get screwed on your S/F ele you can always go D/D. If I get screwed on my terrormancer or shatter mesmer I reroll to another class.

At the end of the day, the best case scenario is one where every profession has multiple viable builds that can fulfill multiple roles (at least 2 per profession). So, yes, people do agree that mesmers and necros (and, tbh many other classes) do need some buffs in other areas to give them other viable specs. Congratulations- it seems like you got the main points of the buff threads.

Jelzouki.4128:

I check the necromancer forum everyday. I also main a necromancer.

To my knowledge, there is literally nobody asking for buffs to specific builds like you mentioned. My experience in the necromancer forum is the majority of people questioning the cast-times and unnecessary after-cast times that really limit us. And necromancers have been asking for blood and death magic buffs for years.

If I were you I would organize your thoughts better because you start your thread bash mesmers and necromancers (arguably the most lacking classes in PvP), then you go on to complain that nobody will listen to your zerker ele cries for help. It makes you sound incompetent and biased.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Making-PvP-Necro-Viable/first

^
Necros asking for buffs on condition spec, do I need to link even more threads?

All you see is necro complaining about their “poor” state in PvP based on current meta builds. Possibly you don’t see the word: terrormancer out in the open but all the complaints are directed to this specific build : slow access to DS, lack of mobility, slow casting animation of some wells and so on..all problems directly related to terrormancer build.

You call me biased..then say that Mesmer and Necromancer are lacking in PvP and I ask you how, seen that the rest of the professions use counter builds, something that’s lacking does not require specific speccing.

Unless you equip multiple condi removals ( like 3+ condi removal skills/traits ) you won’t even be able to touch your average condi necro, you get fear chained, chilled, crippled, weakened, blood, poison…without you being able to do anything.

Based on what is necro weak?…I don’t see how necro is weak in his role therefore I have suggested that buffs should only be directed to create another role for necros…not buffing the current one….hell no and same goes for Mesmer using shatter build, there is a price to pay for what you bring to the table

Selya.5039:

Supreme.3164:

In the end shatter and terrormancer don’t need buffs, if they do need buffs…then we need to buff all other specs in the game not built around self-sustain, because those as well get hunted down by thieves, focused and generally lack great mobility

Actually, if you read the respective threads carefully, especially the Mesmer one, you would notice that many people do agree that other zerker classes do indeed get hunted down by thieves, and that they deserve some time in the limelight too. S/F Ele was one of the prime examples of another build pushed to the fringes of the meta by thieves. So yea, completely agree with you there that other berserker classes need some love as well.

The reason the situation is a lot more serious for Necros and Mesmers (and rangers) is because terrormancer and shatter mesmer are the ONLY viable builds at high-end organized play (not talking about solo queue here where you play against people who don’t seem to know how mesmers or terrormancers work). If you get screwed on your S/F ele you can always go D/D. If I get screwed on my terrormancer or shatter mesmer I reroll to another class.

At the end of the day, the best case scenario is one where every profession has multiple viable builds that can fulfill multiple roles (at least 2 per profession). So, yes, people do agree that mesmers and necros (and, tbh many other classes) do need some buffs in other areas to give them other viable specs. Congratulations- it seems like you got the main points of the buff threads.

But d/d ele cannot be compared ofc to a fresh air ele in terms of sheer dmg, that’s why I’ve proposed to buff Necro/Mesmer accordingly, create a similar situation for them.

Have a Necro/Mesmer version of d/d ele, what I mean is not a copy/paste version, if necros and Mesmer want something more survivable then give to them, but this something cannot be at the same level of current shatter Mesmer and terrormancer in the way they can shape the battle

If the weaker classes had any defensive traits worth taking, they would have to, you know, give up offensive traits to take them. It’s almost like it would take care of itself!

shimmerless.4560:

Supreme.3164:

Never talked about what Mesmer community desire…I’ve simply stated what should be given, whether you’ll personally like it or not, well surely is none of my concerns.

My point simply is that we cannot have a burst build with the defensive potential to match a bruiser build or even negate the role thieves excel at, because at that point then I ask for a revamped fresh air build, zerker staff and even d/f zerker

In the end whenever I use a zerker amulet on any other profession…I get hunted by thieves too, I get focused too so if a shatter Mesmer should be buffed, then all other zerker builds should be buffed too and I’m all for it my friend

Most of us were not in favor of the damage on greatsword being buffed over and over. (It’s almost all because of air and fire, by the way. Without those two greatsword’s ranged damage is mediocre).

Whatever else you can say about Mesmer damage, it’s completely predictable. Do you think it’s a coincidence that Mesmers never have trouble with other Mesmers themselves? But it begs the question, doesn’kitten If shatter Mesmer’s so strong and simple to play, why aren’t you out playing it right now?

As a related aside you’re “stating what should be [a] given”, okay, who the hell are you exactly? This is the very reason why message boards are useless.

I have stated in my OP and that was a suggestion, the purpose of a thread is to give a POW, nobody here is a dev and don’t need you to remember me that tyvm.

If you ask me why I don’t run fresh air or any other zerk build well…because it get farmed by thieves?! Reason why I opt for tanky builds and why I have suggested to do the same for mesmers, at least give that option but again if you want to keep playing shatter build..by all means do that.

But with a viable tanky option , Mesmer community would have not more reasons to ask for buffs…no more reasons than the rest of us

Most requests to buffing necro survivability i have seen were linked to buffs at blood magic, which is a trait line most of you probably never heard of.

So no, buffs to survivability are not targeted at existing and working builds but are requests to make other playstyles atleast an option.

In the case of shatter mesmer, the damage is still less than other glass builds, and although they can sustain better any tanky dps or condi spec will do better, especially considering conditions don’t die to basic cleave.

At the same time to do any decent damage with shatter requires a significant amount of set up another luxury other glass builds have since they do not require it.

So while being lack luster at burst with Prob the most obvious animations, along with crappy sustain, long set up to even achieve the goal, less mobility than thief and unable to escape media guards, all while being naturally countered by no risk condi and bruiser builds that have a lower skill cap, all for a trade off of boon strip… And this is all considering it’s the most vaiable spec you can run. I think this deserves a buff.

If not to survivability at least better coefficients on it’s basic attacks.

Roe.3679:

If the weaker classes had any defensive traits worth taking, they would have to, you know, give up offensive traits to take them. It’s almost like it would take care of itself!

I believe that’s exactly what I’m suggesting.

Mesmers and necros with their current meta builds , they feel weak in the current celestial meta. Celestial meta builds use a great deal of defensive traits and utilities where shatter Mesmer and terrormancer do not for a big part.

So give great defensive traits to necros and Mesmer, buffs that would no benefit the already strong shatter and terror builds

I think you are reading what you want to read. I don’t know about Necros but if you read the posts by mesmers, we are not asking for specific buffs, all we are saying is that mesmers need some kind of buff because we are not wanted on any high end pvp teams. It happens that the ONLY build with a chance of competing at high end is shatter mesmer but if Anet buffed condi mesmers so that they are viable in top end pvp I’m sure no one will say no to that… Just my 2 c.

Daishi.6027:

In the case of shatter mesmer, the damage is still less than other glass builds, and although they can sustain better any tanky dps or condi spec will do better, especially considering conditions don’t die to basic cleave.

At the same time to do any decent damage with shatter requires a significant amount of set up another luxury other glass builds have since they do not require it.

So while being lack luster at burst with Prob the most obvious animations, along with crappy sustain, long set up to even achieve the goal, less mobility than thief and unable to escape media guards, all while being naturally countered by no risk condi and bruiser builds that have a lower skill cap, all for a trade off of boon strip… And this is all considering it’s the most vaiable spec you can run. I think this deserves a buff.

If not to survivability at least better coefficients on it’s basic attacks.

I believe the weaknesses of the shatter Mesmer are well known and they’re also common to all other zerk specs ( some more, some less ), yet we cannot simply ignore the strengths of the build, we simply can’t.

Can you imagine what would happen to pvp if a zerker staff ele( extreme example) would receive sustain buffs?
-No team would live for more than 5s on a point

So buffs to Mesmer yes, buffs that would benefit shatter Mesmer…no, absolutely no

Supreme.3164:

Unless you equip multiple condi removals ( like 3+ condi removal skills/traits ) you won’t even be able to touch your average condi necro, you get fear chained, chilled, crippled, weakened, blood, poison…without you being able to do anything.

Based on what is necro weak?…I don’t see how necro is weak in his role therefore I have suggested that buffs should only be directed to create another role for necros…not buffing the current one….hell no and same goes for Mesmer using shatter build, there is a price to pay for what you bring to the table

If condi necro is so overpowered why isn’t every necro you see running condi? It seems like maybe 25% of the necros are condi, less then 10% are MM, and the rest are power. I tried running condi for some time, and while it could be strong in some situations it seemed lackluster in your average group fight where everyone jumps on the necro first. At least with power you have a chance to do some decent damage with DS before you get trained down.

Supreme.3164:

All you see is necro complaining about their “poor” state in PvP based on current meta builds. Possibly you don’t see the word: terrormancer out in the open but all the complaints are directed to this specific build : slow access to DS, lack of mobility, slow casting animation of some wells and so on..all problems directly related to terrormancer build.

You call me biased..then say that Mesmer and Necromancer are lacking in PvP and I ask you how, seen that the rest of the professions use counter builds, something that’s lacking does not require specific speccing.

Unless you equip multiple condi removals ( like 3+ condi removal skills/traits ) you won’t even be able to touch your average condi necro, you get fear chained, chilled, crippled, weakened, blood, poison…without you being able to do anything.
<snip snip>

Based on your post and the thread (which to be fair I only skimmed through), you don’t really know what you are talking about. Terror necros don’t use wells so they won’t be asking for a terror buff. They generally only use spectral walk, corrupt boon, and wurm. That means no wells.

The arguments people make are not for 1v1s. In a 1v1 necros and mesmers are fairly well balanced. Sure, there are counterbuilds that will wreck most necros and mesmers, but the same is true for every class. The problem that is complained about is the lack of an ability to leave a fight when you need be as a necro, and the lack of diversity on both classes.

On a necro you will get trained by any team that knows what they are doing. You need yo have your team support you or you are dead. This is true for both power and condi(terror) necros. There are no blocks, no vigor, no stab or invulns to save you as you run from their team. Your only option is to hope you didn’t need to use your wurm earlier. This leads me on to the second point.

The lack of build diversity. Terror and power necros both work fairly well but they are the only viable builds in competitive play. Power necros have a bit more diversity in what they can use but they are very easily focused if you don’t have very good team support. This leads to most people using terror necros. They are great in 1v1s and one of the best classes at ruining your day in outnumbered fights. Those fears are monstrous if they can catch you off guard. The problem is that a terror necro is basically forced to use spectral walk and wurm to be able to sustain for those situations where they don’t have a 1v1 or the extra man.

The problem for mesmers is fairly similar(if I understand correctly, sorry I don’t really play mesmer) in that they are forced into glkittenter builds. The other builds are fun but they are just bad versions of what the other classes can do.

As for your point about needing condi removal to deal with necros…. well, yeah. You need condi removal to deal with the cele engis/eles/warriors too. If you are not equipping condi removal of course you will lose to the people with lots of condi output. That is why we also use stun breaks to deal with people with a bunch of stuns.

Supreme.3164:

shimmerless.4560:

Supreme.3164:

Never talked about what Mesmer community desire…I’ve simply stated what should be given, whether you’ll personally like it or not, well surely is none of my concerns.

My point simply is that we cannot have a burst build with the defensive potential to match a bruiser build or even negate the role thieves excel at, because at that point then I ask for a revamped fresh air build, zerker staff and even d/f zerker

In the end whenever I use a zerker amulet on any other profession…I get hunted by thieves too, I get focused too so if a shatter Mesmer should be buffed, then all other zerker builds should be buffed too and I’m all for it my friend

Most of us were not in favor of the damage on greatsword being buffed over and over. (It’s almost all because of air and fire, by the way. Without those two greatsword’s ranged damage is mediocre).

Whatever else you can say about Mesmer damage, it’s completely predictable. Do you think it’s a coincidence that Mesmers never have trouble with other Mesmers themselves? But it begs the question, doesn’kitten If shatter Mesmer’s so strong and simple to play, why aren’t you out playing it right now?

As a related aside you’re “stating what should be [a] given”, okay, who the hell are you exactly? This is the very reason why message boards are useless.

I have stated in my OP and that was a suggestion, the purpose of a thread is to give a POW, nobody here is a dev and don’t need you to remember me that tyvm.

If you ask me why I don’t run fresh air or any other zerk build well…because it get farmed by thieves?! Reason why I opt for tanky builds and why I have suggested to do the same for mesmers, at least give that option but again if you want to keep playing shatter build..by all means do that.

But with a viable tanky option , Mesmer community would have not more reasons to ask for buffs…no more reasons than the rest of us

I didn’t ask why you don’t run fresh air. I asked why you aren’t playing shatter Mesmer, since according to you it’s the strongest spec in the game and just one buff short of being broken.

Mesmer has (and likely Necro does too) tanky builds, the thing is that they’re really boring and they certainly don’t need further buffing — you should check out the sustain on a properly set-up bunker Mesmer sometime. Please keep your D/D Eles to yourselves, I’d honestly rather they leave my class completely alone than turn it into another snoozefest.

I really do believe that necros deserve some buffs. I think the nerf to life force before a match starts was too harsh, they should definitely start with some LF at least, not 0%. They could also use some vigor and a bit more of self sustain. For example regeneration working in Death Shroud would be awesome. It’s really the only class that has no access to vigor and they need to make that up with sigils only. (Not counting Well of Power when you happen to have chill or bleeding.)

On the other hand, I don’t think shatter mesmer is in a bad position at all itself. The problem are thieves pushing mesmers out of meta. But asking for a buff because of that? Fresh air is even less viable than shatter.

It might seem less important since ele has a spec wanted in high tier but not everyone wants to play dd. People act like you have a choice when the playstyles are completely different and you might as well reroll a different class if you just can’t make fresh air viable in pvp. It’s not like every class has a choice of many builds to play. If you want some support builds to be viable on necro/mesmer, I don’t really care. I really doubt they would do better job than the current specs, though.

I do want to play fresh air, I wish we had some kind of boon hate and better mobility. I don’t consider FGS to be enough since the cooldown is pretty high. I wish all of our survival skills weren’t on such high cooldowns so we can do well when they’re not available at that moment. (Blurred frenzy 12 sec cd, hahah.) We have no stealth, not many ways to disengage. So in the end, ele has only one spec viable and it’s not fresh air.

But lol @ the poision. Like poision doesn’t effect Signet of Restoration.

I actually haven’t heard of these requests to buff shatter mesmer. The way the OP puts it you’d think its all over the place.

I’ve heard far more requests for lockdown buffs, and general bug/trait fixes than anything.

I’m all for making necro’s play more engaging than

https://youtu.be/DIPf9MaDrBQ

I mean, press 1 spam really isn’t what any class should be designed around.

Supreme.3164:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Making-PvP-Necro-Viable/first

^
Necros asking for buffs on condition spec, do I need to link even more threads?

All you see is necro complaining about their “poor” state in PvP based on current meta builds. Possibly you don’t see the word: terrormancer out in the open but all the complaints are directed to this specific build : slow access to DS, lack of mobility, slow casting animation of some wells and so on..all problems directly related to terrormancer build.

You call me biased..then say that Mesmer and Necromancer are lacking in PvP and I ask you how, seen that the rest of the professions use counter builds, something that’s lacking does not require specific speccing.

Unless you equip multiple condi removals ( like 3+ condi removal skills/traits ) you won’t even be able to touch your average condi necro, you get fear chained, chilled, crippled, weakened, blood, poison…without you being able to do anything.

Based on what is necro weak?…I don’t see how necro is weak in his role therefore I have suggested that buffs should only be directed to create another role for necros…not buffing the current one….hell no and same goes for Mesmer using shatter build, there is a price to pay for what you bring to the table

Well, you just proved you know nothing about Condition Necros. Let’s go over the skills/traits that were mentioned, shall we?

• Parasitic Bond/Spiteful Removal: Considering most condition necro specs don’t have any points in Spite, this is hardly going to buff that. Spiteful Removal is virtually never taken anyway because when it procs is so situational as to be useless.
• Spiteful marks: The proposed change would make it more attractive to go into Spite for condition builds, and might actually make some variations on the standard Terrormancer. Still wouldn’t be a buff to the meta build. Also competes with Chill of Death, which is good in condition builds as well.
• Withering Precision: Competes with the far superior Path of Corruption. It might see use in some builds if it were buffed, but those would more likely be Power builds.
• Focus changes: A weapon that is never used by Condition builds and wouldn’t be after the proposed changes
• Corrosive Poison Cloud: Currently not used on any build, so any change to it would not be a buff to existing builds.
• Chill change: not so much a buff to Necros as a harsh nerf to thieves.
• Barbed Precision change: hey look! The only buff to condition specs in the entire thread! And it’s not that huge of a buff either, since each stack would still be only 2 seconds long.

In addition, condition necros never use wells and well cast times are not something a Necro complains about, since they all (save Well of Blood) have a 1/4 second cast.

Ranger and Warrior should probably be buffed too.

Mesmer I think is in an awful spot combat wise. Pvp rotations involve abusing teleport and the Mesmer can do this and still isn’t taken.

As for Necromancer, OP is wrong. People aren’t asking specifically that the terrormancer be buffed, they are asking for scalable defenses, sustain, or mobility. If Anet were to actually put boons in the boon trait line (Death Magic), or scrap the non working blood line and replace the entire line with something viable… Then the specific terrormancer build would be nerfed if it took advantage of these changes.

Shatter needs to be on par with thief, medi guard, and fresh air ele. The buffs don’t need to be signicant but needs to affect those matchups.
Bruisers being difficult in point is one thing, but when You do less for more effort and are counter roamed by builds that compete for a similar spot it makes them objectively better options.

The biggest problem I think is how long set up is, and how many factors can screw with it before you can even do damage. And the other glass specs get more innate survivability. (And clones don’t add much to survivability unless players have auto attack on. Which no decent player has.)

Supreme.3164:

I simply don’t see the reasoning behind some buffing requests for necro and Mesmer.

The main complain that I see here is that once focused you die easily as Mesmer or Necro, ok so with just this said then every sane person would go and say :" OK I suggest to buff Necro and Mesmer survivability"….but hold on

The necro and Mesmer community are not asking simply for survivability buffs, they’re asking for buffs on specific builds : shatter Mesmer and Terrormancer necro

To buff the base survival of a profession is one thing, to ask for buffs on a specific build…it’s completely another matter of things.

The two builds mentioned above possess one the highest offensive potential in game and can be applied from range ( keep this in mind, we’re talking about 900-1200 range); now when you see a Mesmer or Necro in the enemy team you start to take countermeasures with your build, you cannot spec whatever and hope to win against a Necro or Mesmer

You are forced to bring with you a considerable amount of condi removal to deal with necro and substantial amount of sustain( being it dmg mitigation or avoidance) to deal with Mesmer, if they’re so weak…why do I need to even bother with counter speccing?

Basically a Mesmer or Necro left alone to free cast, we’ll wreck your team in no time.
Specifically I’m talking about shatter Mesmer and terrormancer( mind you I’m not talking about the specific professions, just these two builds)

Shatter Mesmer and Terrormancer deserve no buff whatsoever, they use trait lines that reduce the amount of self-sustain in return for huge amounts of dmg.

A shatter Mesmer can be compared to a fresh air ele, same kind of role, but the fresh ele got even less sustain by comparison

A terrormancer can be compared to a zerker staf ele ( 30 air/20 earth and 20 arcana), both try to bring mayhem to the battlefield, still the zerker staff ele can survive a fraction of the time respect to a terrormancer.

Now if I can’t open a thread asking for buffs on zerker staff and fresh air, why?….Because ele got d/d celestial build and trying to ask for (legitimate?) buffs will only give scorn, flaming and hatred in return

But remember that d/d ele does not use the same trait lines as zerker staff ele and fresh air ele, therefore what really should be buffed on Necro and Mesmer are specific traitlines, those would be : blood, chaos, inspiration, death magic.

The buffs should be enough to create a viable bunker/bruiser build for Mesmer and Necro like it is for eles.

In the end shatter and terrormancer don’t need buffs, if they do need buffs…then we need to buff all other specs in the game not built around self-sustain, because those as well get hunted down by thieves, focused and generally lack great mobility

Just wanted to add my two cents I guess.

If you like, you can go to the mists, slap on settler’s or cleric’s and create it 30 seconds a minion master that takes ages to take down. So what? Any class has these builds that do nothing but run around until focus fired by 2 players. The point of a bunker is not simply to be hard to kill, but to provide support to your team, something that necros lack completely. A necro will never (and should never) be a better tank than a guardian can be. And guardian tanks, btw, are mostly extinct now due to the buffs to celestial.

Just wanted to add my two cents I guess.

If you like, you can go to the mists, slap on settler’s or cleric’s and create it 30 seconds a minion master that takes ages to take down. So what? Any class has these builds that do nothing but run around until focus fired by 2 players. The point of a bunker is not simply to be hard to kill, but to provide support to your team, something that necros lack completely. A necro will never (and should never) be a better tank than a guardian can be. And guardian tanks, btw, are mostly extinct now due to the buffs to celestial.

The meta changes at all times but this will not nullify the importance of a guardian bunker, I won’t sit here trading blows regarding the current meta

Regarding my post, I have said that those traitlines should be buffed in order to create viable bunker/bruiser builds, aka give necro and Mesmer a source of support suitable for them, something different from current ele/engi/guardian but something supportive nonetheless

Supreme.3164:

Just wanted to add my two cents I guess.

If you like, you can go to the mists, slap on settler’s or cleric’s and create it 30 seconds a minion master that takes ages to take down. So what? Any class has these builds that do nothing but run around until focus fired by 2 players. The point of a bunker is not simply to be hard to kill, but to provide support to your team, something that necros lack completely. A necro will never (and should never) be a better tank than a guardian can be. And guardian tanks, btw, are mostly extinct now due to the buffs to celestial.

The meta changes at all times but this will not nullify the importance of a guardian bunker, I won’t sit here trading blows regarding the current meta

Regarding my post, I have said that those traitlines should be buffed in order to create viable bunker/bruiser builds, aka give necro and Mesmer a source of support suitable for them, something different from current ele/engi/guardian but something supportive nonetheless

So for those of you who tl:dr

OP wants mesmer and necros to stop crying for buffs. OP’s solution buff the things necros and mesmer were asking for…….. my kittening head hurts.

Supreme.3164:

Selya.5039:

Supreme.3164:

In the end shatter and terrormancer don’t need buffs, if they do need buffs…then we need to buff all other specs in the game not built around self-sustain, because those as well get hunted down by thieves, focused and generally lack great mobility

Actually, if you read the respective threads carefully, especially the Mesmer one, you would notice that many people do agree that other zerker classes do indeed get hunted down by thieves, and that they deserve some time in the limelight too. S/F Ele was one of the prime examples of another build pushed to the fringes of the meta by thieves. So yea, completely agree with you there that other berserker classes need some love as well.

The reason the situation is a lot more serious for Necros and Mesmers (and rangers) is because terrormancer and shatter mesmer are the ONLY viable builds at high-end organized play (not talking about solo queue here where you play against people who don’t seem to know how mesmers or terrormancers work). If you get screwed on your S/F ele you can always go D/D. If I get screwed on my terrormancer or shatter mesmer I reroll to another class.

At the end of the day, the best case scenario is one where every profession has multiple viable builds that can fulfill multiple roles (at least 2 per profession). So, yes, people do agree that mesmers and necros (and, tbh many other classes) do need some buffs in other areas to give them other viable specs. Congratulations- it seems like you got the main points of the buff threads.

But d/d ele cannot be compared ofc to a fresh air ele in terms of sheer dmg, that’s why I’ve proposed to buff Necro/Mesmer accordingly, create a similar situation for them.

Have a Necro/Mesmer version of d/d ele, what I mean is not a copy/paste version, if necros and Mesmer want something more survivable then give to them, but this something cannot be at the same level of current shatter Mesmer and terrormancer in the way they can shape the battle

Ah so you want necro and mesmer cele builds and want every team to go 4 celestials 1 thief?

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Supreme.3164:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Making-PvP-Necro-Viable/first

^
Necros asking for buffs on condition spec, do I need to link even more threads?

All you see is necro complaining about their “poor” state in PvP based on current meta builds. Possibly you don’t see the word: terrormancer out in the open but all the complaints are directed to this specific build : slow access to DS, lack of mobility, slow casting animation of some wells and so on..all problems directly related to terrormancer build.

You call me biased..then say that Mesmer and Necromancer are lacking in PvP and I ask you how, seen that the rest of the professions use counter builds, something that’s lacking does not require specific speccing.

Unless you equip multiple condi removals ( like 3+ condi removal skills/traits ) you won’t even be able to touch your average condi necro, you get fear chained, chilled, crippled, weakened, blood, poison…without you being able to do anything.

Based on what is necro weak?…I don’t see how necro is weak in his role therefore I have suggested that buffs should only be directed to create another role for necros…not buffing the current one….hell no and same goes for Mesmer using shatter build, there is a price to pay for what you bring to the table

Well, you just proved you know nothing about Condition Necros. Let’s go over the skills/traits that were mentioned, shall we?

• Parasitic Bond/Spiteful Removal: Considering most condition necro specs don’t have any points in Spite, this is hardly going to buff that. Spiteful Removal is virtually never taken anyway because when it procs is so situational as to be useless.
• Spiteful marks: The proposed change would make it more attractive to go into Spite for condition builds, and might actually make some variations on the standard Terrormancer. Still wouldn’t be a buff to the meta build. Also competes with Chill of Death, which is good in condition builds as well.
• Withering Precision: Competes with the far superior Path of Corruption. It might see use in some builds if it were buffed, but those would more likely be Power builds.
• Focus changes: A weapon that is never used by Condition builds and wouldn’t be after the proposed changes
• Corrosive Poison Cloud: Currently not used on any build, so any change to it would not be a buff to existing builds.
• Chill change: not so much a buff to Necros as a harsh nerf to thieves.
• Barbed Precision change: hey look! The only buff to condition specs in the entire thread! And it’s not that huge of a buff either, since each stack would still be only 2 seconds long.

In addition, condition necros never use wells and well cast times are not something a Necro complains about, since they all (save Well of Blood) have a 1/4 second cast.

I have used the word : “well” , because it has been mentioned few times in some threads, a generalization, a wrong one I dare to say, but still a generalization it remains.

All the problems denounced by the necro community are based on the current meta, where necros do use terrormancer build

Nobody here is against buffs to the necro class, but these buffs should given in a way that terrormancer build remains as it is now.

I believe that not only me but the entire community would hate to see the return of dhuumfire necro, many left the game at that time..and didn’t return….including the entirety of my guild and other several friends.

The dhuumfire era was possibly the worst age this game has ever seen, nobody want to see that again…including the devs I dare to say.

Buff necro, but don’t touch terrormancer….that’s all really

The point mesmers and necros make is that if its ok for thieves/eles/warriors/engis to have massive damage and massive sustain then why cant we have it? That would be balance.

i cant say much about necro since i dont play that class much but for the mesmer there are a few problems at the moment.

The reason there never has been another viable build in high lvl pvp for mesmer is that there are 3 traits in 3 different traitlines that are crucial for the gameplay of a shattermesmer. (Other build than shatter dont work either since they rely on AI which get cleaved in a second in any teamfight)

Boon remove on shatter -> for me one of the few reasons to even bring a mesmer
clone on dodge -> without that trait you cant do anything
illusionary person -> brings more sustain and dmg and maybe the only trait that isnt 100% necessary

Since you cant go into other traitlines cause of these importants traits there wont be another meta build for mesmer unless anet changes traitlines.

Shattermesmer overall is a very strong build and would be for sure more popular in high tier pvp when there wasnt the thief. So were other zerker classes.
In my opinion the Buffs for Steal were very destructive for all other zerker classes and pushed gw2 pvp into a tanky meta.

So the solution would be nerf Steal and other zerker classes would be happy :p
And merge 2 of those crucial shatter traits into one traitline!

NeXeD.3042:

Supreme.3164:

Just wanted to add my two cents I guess.

If you like, you can go to the mists, slap on settler’s or cleric’s and create it 30 seconds a minion master that takes ages to take down. So what? Any class has these builds that do nothing but run around until focus fired by 2 players. The point of a bunker is not simply to be hard to kill, but to provide support to your team, something that necros lack completely. A necro will never (and should never) be a better tank than a guardian can be. And guardian tanks, btw, are mostly extinct now due to the buffs to celestial.

The meta changes at all times but this will not nullify the importance of a guardian bunker, I won’t sit here trading blows regarding the current meta

Regarding my post, I have said that those traitlines should be buffed in order to create viable bunker/bruiser builds, aka give necro and Mesmer a source of support suitable for them, something different from current ele/engi/guardian but something supportive nonetheless

So for those of you who tl:dr

OP wants mesmer and necros to stop crying for buffs. OP’s solution buff the things necros and mesmer were asking for…….. my kittening head hurts.

Well… NO

I (and I think most necros) do not want buffing these traitlines, but the other aspects. For that matter, I think that what must be buffed is not the survivability, but the utility, more specifically boon corruption, condition manipulation and soft cc.

NeXeD.3042:

Supreme.3164:

Just wanted to add my two cents I guess.

If you like, you can go to the mists, slap on settler’s or cleric’s and create it 30 seconds a minion master that takes ages to take down. So what? Any class has these builds that do nothing but run around until focus fired by 2 players. The point of a bunker is not simply to be hard to kill, but to provide support to your team, something that necros lack completely. A necro will never (and should never) be a better tank than a guardian can be. And guardian tanks, btw, are mostly extinct now due to the buffs to celestial.

The meta changes at all times but this will not nullify the importance of a guardian bunker, I won’t sit here trading blows regarding the current meta

Regarding my post, I have said that those traitlines should be buffed in order to create viable bunker/bruiser builds, aka give necro and Mesmer a source of support suitable for them, something different from current ele/engi/guardian but something supportive nonetheless

So for those of you who tl:dr

OP wants mesmer and necros to stop crying for buffs. OP’s solution buff the things necros and mesmer were asking for…….. my kittening head hurts.

I don’t see the problem.

I clearly see mesmers complaining because the shatter build doesn’t measure up to cele bruisers or thieves. But these two professions do invest a lot in defensive lines respect to Mesmer.

I’ve simply suggested to give mesmers a reason to invest in defensive lines as well, give them buffs that would no benefit the domination and duelling line, the shatter build basically.

The dmg you bring to the table, the team support options ( portal, boon stripping, aoe daze, aoe stealth), everything that shatter buld offers is enough to justify everything else

Um……“shatter” Mesmers are mainly traited in Illusions and Dueling. Illusionary Persona(GM trait in Illusions) which counts the Mesmer in every shatter, and Deceptive Evasion(Duelling) to quickly generate clones TO shatter. Those 2 traits define “shatter mesmer”.

SlimChance.6593:

Um……“shatter” Mesmers are mainly traited in Illusions and Dueling. Illusionary Persona(GM trait in Illusions) which counts the Mesmer in every shatter, and Deceptive Evasion(Duelling) to quickly generate clones TO shatter. Those 2 traits define “shatter mesmer”.

Which is funny considering most of that is just ammo to actually do damage.

the fact you need to spend 10 points just to be able to hit decent numbers is another factor holding the spec back. A simple trait swap between like Phantasmal haste or illusionary elasticity and Deceptive evasion would be enough of a buff to give Mesmes more options… Also you’d think a skill that summoned clones on doge rolls would be in the “illusions” tree by default xD

Tissitra.4153:

NeXeD.3042:

Supreme.3164:

Just wanted to add my two cents I guess.

If you like, you can go to the mists, slap on settler’s or cleric’s and create it 30 seconds a minion master that takes ages to take down. So what? Any class has these builds that do nothing but run around until focus fired by 2 players. The point of a bunker is not simply to be hard to kill, but to provide support to your team, something that necros lack completely. A necro will never (and should never) be a better tank than a guardian can be. And guardian tanks, btw, are mostly extinct now due to the buffs to celestial.

The meta changes at all times but this will not nullify the importance of a guardian bunker, I won’t sit here trading blows regarding the current meta

Regarding my post, I have said that those traitlines should be buffed in order to create viable bunker/bruiser builds, aka give necro and Mesmer a source of support suitable for them, something different from current ele/engi/guardian but something supportive nonetheless

So for those of you who tl:dr

OP wants mesmer and necros to stop crying for buffs. OP’s solution buff the things necros and mesmer were asking for…….. my kittening head hurts.

Well… NO

I (and I think most necros) do not want buffing these traitlines, but the other aspects. For that matter, I think that what must be buffed is not the survivability, but the utility, more specifically boon corruption, condition manipulation and soft cc.

Well… NO

It’s the survivability. As a pvp necro we have two options full glass power or terror. Terror is the only one that ever goes into a defensive traitline and even then I would argue going 4 into Spite vs 4 into DM is better.

If your newer to pvp or necro your going to argue about how you have some secret tanky build using US that no one else has ever thought of before until you are blue in the face. Eventually everyone figures out they were wrong.

We have plenty of corruption. We have plenty of CC. We have plenty condition manipulation.

If mesmer was buffed I wouldn’t want it buffed in a way that made it a stupid facerolly nonsense class like all the other cele meta builds right now. That would just be embarassing for high level pvp in this game lol.

SlimChance.6593:

Um……“shatter” Mesmers are mainly traited in Illusions and Dueling. Illusionary Persona(GM trait in Illusions) which counts the Mesmer in every shatter, and Deceptive Evasion(Duelling) to quickly generate clones TO shatter. Those 2 traits define “shatter mesmer”.

Deceptive evasion pretty much defines every mesmer build though lol.

NeXeD.3042:

Tissitra.4153:

NeXeD.3042:

Supreme.3164:

Just wanted to add my two cents I guess.

If you like, you can go to the mists, slap on settler’s or cleric’s and create it 30 seconds a minion master that takes ages to take down. So what? Any class has these builds that do nothing but run around until focus fired by 2 players. The point of a bunker is not simply to be hard to kill, but to provide support to your team, something that necros lack completely. A necro will never (and should never) be a better tank than a guardian can be. And guardian tanks, btw, are mostly extinct now due to the buffs to celestial.

The meta changes at all times but this will not nullify the importance of a guardian bunker, I won’t sit here trading blows regarding the current meta

Regarding my post, I have said that those traitlines should be buffed in order to create viable bunker/bruiser builds, aka give necro and Mesmer a source of support suitable for them, something different from current ele/engi/guardian but something supportive nonetheless

So for those of you who tl:dr

OP wants mesmer and necros to stop crying for buffs. OP’s solution buff the things necros and mesmer were asking for…….. my kittening head hurts.

Well… NO

I (and I think most necros) do not want buffing these traitlines, but the other aspects. For that matter, I think that what must be buffed is not the survivability, but the utility, more specifically boon corruption, condition manipulation and soft cc.

Well… NO

It’s the survivability. As a pvp necro we have two options full glass power or terror. Terror is the only one that ever goes into a defensive traitline and even then I would argue going 4 into Spite vs 4 into DM is better.

If your newer to pvp or necro your going to argue about how you have some secret tanky build using US that no one else has ever thought of before until you are blue in the face. Eventually everyone figures out they were wrong.

We have plenty of corruption. We have plenty of CC. We have plenty condition manipulation.

^^ +1 for survivability (AKA: Mitigation or escapes). Confused as to why that guy says there is not enough condi manipulation.

The point to complaints about Necromancers is that they have no way to deal with concerted focus fire, unlike other glass builds. Now obviously if 5 people can stay on you for a long time any glass build should die, however Necromancers have no invulns, no blocks, no vigor: we rely on Deathshroud to face tank damage, and conditions to slow the damage coming in.

The problems are a few parts. First off, all of our “defense” relies on offensive skills. I need to land a skill to gain LF or apply blind, weakness, chill, etc. The conditions can also all be removed. So no only is my defense harder to gain access to than anyone elses, it can also be countered, out of my control, after I’ve landed it. This problem is compounded by our second problem: no stability, and no way to not be hit by CC attacks. Not only do we lack the stability to absorb CC, we lack vigor, blocks, invulns, and other mechanics to absorb the CC skills, meaning (barring my two dodges) I get hit by every CC that comes my way. This is a bigger problem than other builds because every second I am CCed is a second I can’t be applying conditions or gaining life force, meaning every second of CC not only delays my offense but also delays all of my defense. The final problem is that our one big defense, Death Shroud, doesn’t scale. 20,000 life force can only absorb 20,000 damage, regardless of how many people are hitting me. This is fine in 1v1s where I won’t be CCed as much and can build and use my LF reasonably, but in a teamfight where I can going to be on the defensive far more often, I not only build less life force but also end up using far more of it to absorb damage.

This is compared to other professions whose defense cannot be denied to them. You can’t CC a warrior out of a stance, you can’t focus fire your way through Renewed Focus, and even Thieves who lack that kind of defense have mobility to avoid damage (note, not trying to say any of these professions are OP, or that I want their exact defense, but I would like a reasonable equivalent in teamfights, I think our 1v1 defenses are fine).

And finally, opening up meaningful defensive traits in Death/Blood/Soul Reaping trees, or new weapon/utility skills will actually lower our overall offensive output. I’m not asking that we get extra defense for nothing, I’m asking for the option to get similar defenses to other professions when other things (utility, damage, etc.) are similar.

Supreme.3164:

Daishi.6027:

In the case of shatter mesmer, the damage is still less than other glass builds, and although they can sustain better any tanky dps or condi spec will do better, especially considering conditions don’t die to basic cleave.

At the same time to do any decent damage with shatter requires a significant amount of set up another luxury other glass builds have since they do not require it.

So while being lack luster at burst with Prob the most obvious animations, along with crappy sustain, long set up to even achieve the goal, less mobility than thief and unable to escape media guards, all while being naturally countered by no risk condi and bruiser builds that have a lower skill cap, all for a trade off of boon strip… And this is all considering it’s the most vaiable spec you can run. I think this deserves a buff.

If not to survivability at least better coefficients on it’s basic attacks.

I believe the weaknesses of the shatter Mesmer are well known and they’re also common to all other zerk specs ( some more, some less ), yet we cannot simply ignore the strengths of the build, we simply can’t.

Can you imagine what would happen to pvp if a zerker staff ele( extreme example) would receive sustain buffs?
-No team would live for more than 5s on a point

So buffs to Mesmer yes, buffs that would benefit shatter Mesmer…no, absolutely no

You make sound like Mesmers dish out more burst damage compare to thieves, even if it’s close, Thieves can choose when to disengage and then engage AT THIER convenience more easily than Mesmers.

Sure, you can say that’s what being a thief is all about, but if we are going to follow the same reason that certain traits and skills fit the specific classes, Mesmers from GW1 (according to the people that played it) is way better than what Mesmers are in GW2. We are not asking for top burst damage and survivability in one complete package, but given how Mesmers in GW1 works, we are supposed to confuse enemies and using interrupt skills. Now in GW2, Our clones and phantasms are jokes, they can be dodged or killed, shattering requires setup, and when we are down we have a big freaking red arrow on top of our head to let ALL players know which one is the real one to focus on. I will take whatever the version of Mesmers in GW1 over the current version.

“All the problems denounced by the necro community are based on the current meta, where necros do use terrormancer build”

Okay guys there you have it, OP thinks every necro in the community only runs a terrormancer build.

NeXeD.3042:

Tissitra.4153:

NeXeD.3042:

Supreme.3164:

Just wanted to add my two cents I guess.

If you like, you can go to the mists, slap on settler’s or cleric’s and create it 30 seconds a minion master that takes ages to take down. So what? Any class has these builds that do nothing but run around until focus fired by 2 players. The point of a bunker is not simply to be hard to kill, but to provide support to your team, something that necros lack completely. A necro will never (and should never) be a better tank than a guardian can be. And guardian tanks, btw, are mostly extinct now due to the buffs to celestial.

The meta changes at all times but this will not nullify the importance of a guardian bunker, I won’t sit here trading blows regarding the current meta

Regarding my post, I have said that those traitlines should be buffed in order to create viable bunker/bruiser builds, aka give necro and Mesmer a source of support suitable for them, something different from current ele/engi/guardian but something supportive nonetheless

So for those of you who tl:dr

OP wants mesmer and necros to stop crying for buffs. OP’s solution buff the things necros and mesmer were asking for…….. my kittening head hurts.

Well… NO

I (and I think most necros) do not want buffing these traitlines, but the other aspects. For that matter, I think that what must be buffed is not the survivability, but the utility, more specifically boon corruption, condition manipulation and soft cc.

Well… NO

It’s the survivability. As a pvp necro we have two options full glass power or terror. Terror is the only one that ever goes into a defensive traitline and even then I would argue going 4 into Spite vs 4 into DM is better.

If your newer to pvp or necro your going to argue about how you have some secret tanky build using US that no one else has ever thought of before until you are blue in the face. Eventually everyone figures out they were wrong.

We have plenty of corruption. We have plenty of CC. We have plenty condition manipulation.

Nexed, did that guy really just say necros do not want buffs in survivability traitlines? i.e blood/death magic?

LOOOOOOOOOOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jelzouki.4128:

NeXeD.3042:

Tissitra.4153:

NeXeD.3042:

Supreme.3164:

Just wanted to add my two cents I guess.

If you like, you can go to the mists, slap on settler’s or cleric’s and create it 30 seconds a minion master that takes ages to take down. So what? Any class has these builds that do nothing but run around until focus fired by 2 players. The point of a bunker is not simply to be hard to kill, but to provide support to your team, something that necros lack completely. A necro will never (and should never) be a better tank than a guardian can be. And guardian tanks, btw, are mostly extinct now due to the buffs to celestial.

The meta changes at all times but this will not nullify the importance of a guardian bunker, I won’t sit here trading blows regarding the current meta

Regarding my post, I have said that those traitlines should be buffed in order to create viable bunker/bruiser builds, aka give necro and Mesmer a source of support suitable for them, something different from current ele/engi/guardian but something supportive nonetheless

So for those of you who tl:dr

OP wants mesmer and necros to stop crying for buffs. OP’s solution buff the things necros and mesmer were asking for…….. my kittening head hurts.

Well… NO

I (and I think most necros) do not want buffing these traitlines, but the other aspects. For that matter, I think that what must be buffed is not the survivability, but the utility, more specifically boon corruption, condition manipulation and soft cc.

Well… NO

It’s the survivability. As a pvp necro we have two options full glass power or terror. Terror is the only one that ever goes into a defensive traitline and even then I would argue going 4 into Spite vs 4 into DM is better.

If your newer to pvp or necro your going to argue about how you have some secret tanky build using US that no one else has ever thought of before until you are blue in the face. Eventually everyone figures out they were wrong.

We have plenty of corruption. We have plenty of CC. We have plenty condition manipulation.

Nexed, did that guy really just say necros do not want buffs in survivability traitlines? i.e blood/death magic?

LOOOOOOOOOOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ya, He did. /Tableflip

Also, below I have edited his post for him.

Tissitra.4153:

Well… NO

I (and I think most necros) do not want buffing these traitlines, but the other aspects. For that matter, I think that what must be buffed is not the survivability, but the utility, more specifically boon corruption, condition manipulation and soft cc.

Supreme is a d/d ele player that doesnt want his faceroll to end. all the players asking for buffs to these classed want two things
1. Necro wants more survive and sustain

2. Mesmers want something to where a team doesn’t feel like they are instantly gimping themselves by taking a mesmer. Thieves and mesmers compete for the same role and right now two players on those two classes of the same mechanical skill level means the thief will be doing that job miles ahead of the mesmer. All mesmers want is something to make them as appealing to teams as thieves. Now this could be done addressing the thief mesmer match up, or just giving mesmers better sustain as well. i think the problem with mesmers in the end is the true lack of build diversity it is the only class that since Launch has only had one viable build option at the highest levels of play.
No other class in this game has only had ONE build choice since launch to be competitive, and if you think thats okay youre delusional.

Bhawb.7408:

The point to complaints about Necromancers is that they have no way to deal with concerted focus fire, unlike other glass builds. Now obviously if 5 people can stay on you for a long time any glass build should die, however Necromancers have no invulns, no blocks, no vigor: we rely on Deathshroud to face tank damage, and conditions to slow the damage coming in.

The problems are a few parts. First off, all of our “defense” relies on offensive skills. I need to land a skill to gain LF or apply blind, weakness, chill, etc. The conditions can also all be removed. So no only is my defense harder to gain access to than anyone elses, it can also be countered, out of my control, after I’ve landed it. This problem is compounded by our second problem: no stability, and no way to not be hit by CC attacks. Not only do we lack the stability to absorb CC, we lack vigor, blocks, invulns, and other mechanics to absorb the CC skills, meaning (barring my two dodges) I get hit by every CC that comes my way. This is a bigger problem than other builds because every second I am CCed is a second I can’t be applying conditions or gaining life force, meaning every second of CC not only delays my offense but also delays all of my defense. The final problem is that our one big defense, Death Shroud, doesn’t scale. 20,000 life force can only absorb 20,000 damage, regardless of how many people are hitting me. This is fine in 1v1s where I won’t be CCed as much and can build and use my LF reasonably, but in a teamfight where I can going to be on the defensive far more often, I not only build less life force but also end up using far more of it to absorb damage.

This is compared to other professions whose defense cannot be denied to them. You can’t CC a warrior out of a stance, you can’t focus fire your way through Renewed Focus, and even Thieves who lack that kind of defense have mobility to avoid damage (note, not trying to say any of these professions are OP, or that I want their exact defense, but I would like a reasonable equivalent in teamfights, I think our 1v1 defenses are fine).

And finally, opening up meaningful defensive traits in Death/Blood/Soul Reaping trees, or new weapon/utility skills will actually lower our overall offensive output. I’m not asking that we get extra defense for nothing, I’m asking for the option to get similar defenses to other professions when other things (utility, damage, etc.) are similar.

What would happen to this game if necros would gain the ability to hugely mitigate focus fire with death shroud? Not the community or the devs want to know, the latter are well aware of what would happen to the game if necro would gain a powered up version of DS.

Worst of all, you suggest to have a scaling death shroud. You want this mechanic to get stronger as the number of enemies increase……sorry bro, are you 100% certain about what you’re asking?

First of all, can you explain what you mean for focus fire?
There is no meta build in the game that survive a huge amount of time when heavily focused by more than 1 player

What you’re really talking about is dmg avoidance that some professions possess( ele, warrior, thief, guardian, engi), they’re able to quickly move out of combat to lose focus; here I can say " yes necro do lack in the dmg avoidance department".

The necro is more than fine in the in-combat survivability department, for a class that does not need healing power or high toughness, the necro does more than fine in mitigating dmg. What necro needs need are ways to get of trouble when things get hot and I fully agree about this.

Your suggestion: a scaling DS, would transform the necro in a super bunker, something that can absorb dmg incoming from multiple sources…that would be silly, sorry to say that.

Rome.7124:

Supreme.3164:

Daishi.6027:

In the case of shatter mesmer, the damage is still less than other glass builds, and although they can sustain better any tanky dps or condi spec will do better, especially considering conditions don’t die to basic cleave.

At the same time to do any decent damage with shatter requires a significant amount of set up another luxury other glass builds have since they do not require it.

So while being lack luster at burst with Prob the most obvious animations, along with crappy sustain, long set up to even achieve the goal, less mobility than thief and unable to escape media guards, all while being naturally countered by no risk condi and bruiser builds that have a lower skill cap, all for a trade off of boon strip… And this is all considering it’s the most vaiable spec you can run. I think this deserves a buff.

If not to survivability at least better coefficients on it’s basic attacks.

I believe the weaknesses of the shatter Mesmer are well known and they’re also common to all other zerk specs ( some more, some less ), yet we cannot simply ignore the strengths of the build, we simply can’t.

Can you imagine what would happen to pvp if a zerker staff ele( extreme example) would receive sustain buffs?
-No team would live for more than 5s on a point

So buffs to Mesmer yes, buffs that would benefit shatter Mesmer…no, absolutely no

You make sound like Mesmers dish out more burst damage compare to thieves, even if it’s close, Thieves can choose when to disengage and then engage AT THIER convenience more easily than Mesmers.

Sure, you can say that’s what being a thief is all about, but if we are going to follow the same reason that certain traits and skills fit the specific classes, Mesmers from GW1 (according to the people that played it) is way better than what Mesmers are in GW2. We are not asking for top burst damage and survivability in one complete package, but given how Mesmers in GW1 works, we are supposed to confuse enemies and using interrupt skills. Now in GW2, Our clones and phantasms are jokes, they can be dodged or killed, shattering requires setup, and when we are down we have a big freaking red arrow on top of our head to let ALL players know which one is the real one to focus on. I will take whatever the version of Mesmers in GW1 over the current version.

Then you agree with me, in the OP I did state that Mesmer should be buffed but in a way that won’t create a super burster ( top burst + survivability as you’ve said)

Supreme.3164:

What would happen to this game if necros would gain the ability to hugely mitigate focus fire with death shroud? Not the community or the devs want to know, the latter are well aware of what would happen to the game if necro would gain a powered up version of DS.

Worst of all, you suggest to have a scaling death shroud. You want this mechanic to get stronger as the number of enemies increase……sorry bro, are you 100% certain about what you’re asking?

First of all, can you explain what you mean for focus fire?
There is no meta build in the game that survive a huge amount of time when heavily focused by more than 1 player

What you’re really talking about is dmg avoidance that some professions possess( ele, warrior, thief, guardian, engi), they’re able to quickly move out of combat to lose focus; here I can say " yes necro do lack in the dmg avoidance department".

The necro is more than fine in the in-combat survivability department, for a class that does not need healing power or high toughness, the necro does more than fine in mitigating dmg. What necro needs need are ways to get of trouble when things get hot and I fully agree about this.

Your suggestion: a scaling DS, would transform the necro in a super bunker, something that can absorb dmg incoming from multiple sources…that would be silly, sorry to say that.

And this is where you prove you don’t know what you are talking about.

At no point has Bhawb ever suggested that Death Shroud scale with number of enemies. You literally attack an idea that nobody suggested. Kinda shoots your credibility in the foot. And the other foot and opposite hand as well.