Guild Wars 2

Please, can someone tell me why devs decided to nerf Consume Condition hard and to buff Withdraw, which is obviously the strongest heal IG by far ?
It’s such a ridiculous idea, Consume Condi was balanced enough (due to a pretty long casting time). Withdraw is just unblockable 15s CD heal.
Sorry dear devs, but that’s kinda stupid.

I’m not going to say deal with it for Necros. Balance Devs have been doing extremely incompetent balance decisions.

It has been like this since Launch such as the quickness nerf on Warrior with ZERO immediate compensation 2 years ago and the lack of balancing principles such as Overcharge shot vs. instant cast skull crack.

The decisions being made are just flat out incompetent.

ImdA.4701:

Please, can someone tell me why devs decided to nerf Consume Condition hard and to buff Withdraw, which is obviously the strongest heal IG by far ?
It’s such a ridiculous idea, Consume Condi was balanced enough (due to a pretty long casting time). Withdraw is just unblockable 15s CD heal.
Sorry dear devs, but that’s kinda stupid.

Reading is a valuable skill. You might want to go back and check the notes vs just complaining. Withdraw was increased to 18 seconds.

3 more seconds on cooldown won’t change a lot of thing tho. Thieves will still able to spam it every time they get hitted, as they do at the moment. That’s not enough in my opinion.

It should have a 1 second cast time before the heal and evade happens. Its not like they cant get it off in stealth or by porting away anyway. Add some counter play to it

Oh no a dodge that throws them back 600 units or so, so OP /sarcasim

Lordrosicky.5813:

It should have a 1 second cast time before the heal and evade happens. Its not like they cant get it off in stealth or by porting away anyway. Add some counter play to it

Lol, then all thieves would start using Hide in Shadows cause this would be completely useless. It’s also used for the immob cleanse and if you put 1 sec cast time on it, it completely lose its purpose.

Khandarus.2738:

Oh no a dodge that throws them back 600 units or so, so OP /sarcasim

You ever played the game? xD

Its a dodge heal that removes cripple/chill or imob and heals for roughly 4200, 4600 after the patch and is an 18 second cooldown, reduced to about 14-15 seconds with a trait. The complaint is nothing but grasping at straws.

Khandarus.2738:

Its a dodge heal that removes cripple/chill or imob and heals for roughly 4200, 4600 after the patch and is an 18 second cooldown, reduced to about 14-15 seconds with a trait. The complaint is nothing but grasping at straws.

Thing is the very low CD allows thieves to spam it as soon as they get hitted by something. The low CD allows thieves to entirely reset a fight just by waiting for it in stealth.

ImdA.4701:

Khandarus.2738:

Its a dodge heal that removes cripple/chill or imob and heals for roughly 4200, 4600 after the patch and is an 18 second cooldown, reduced to about 14-15 seconds with a trait. The complaint is nothing but grasping at straws.

Thing is the very low CD allows thieves to spam it as soon as they get hitted by something. The low CD allows thieves to entirely reset a fight just by waiting for it in stealth.

Hit*

As for Spam, that means using something over and over again in quick succession, which he can’t since there is a cooldown already on it.

If you can’t dodge a telegraphed CnD then that is your problem.
Blinding powder is what it is
If you can’t kill a thief that uses SR, again that is on you.

Im not sure you get what i wanted to say actually. Anyway.

The problem is that withdraw is a heal with zero counterplay. Literally the only way to interrupt it would be to put a static field/line of warding/ring of warding/ unsteady ground behind the thief, and hope they’re dumb enough to withdraw into it. Even then, I think the heal applies instantly, so they’d just not roll back the full distance.

It needs a real cast time, not a ’I’m evading, just thought I’d let you know how long I’m evading for’ cast time.

So, no counter play but that seems like a list of counter play. Though it be better to put it on them so matter what way they roll it hits them, but that’s just my thought.

Withdraw doesnt clear poison, there your counter play.

Shadow of Azrael.1205:

Withdraw doesnt clear poison, there your counter play.

Ah, but traited Withdraw will…

(assuming anyone actually gives up Bountiful Theft to trait Withdraw’s cooldown)

Shadow of Azrael.1205:

Withdraw doesnt clear poison, there your counter play.

Wow, because it doesn’t clear poison it should make me feel good? LOL.

Well, some heals hard or impossible to counter with poison. Like consume conditions ;-)

Shadow of Azrael.1205:

Well, some heals hard or impossible to counter with poison. Like consume conditions ;-)

Well, some heals have ridiculously long cast times even a person with 24 years reaction time would interrupt them. Like consume conditions.

Xiahou Mao.9701:

Shadow of Azrael.1205:

Withdraw doesnt clear poison, there your counter play.

Ah, but traited Withdraw will…

(assuming anyone actually gives up Bountiful Theft to trait Withdraw’s cooldown)

which wont happen. so poison is indeed a counterplay.

the skill is trong but nerfing it going to effect all the builds that thieves dont use becouse of d/p being dominant.

Fay.2357:

The problem is that withdraw is a heal with zero counterplay. Literally the only way to interrupt it would be to put a static field/line of warding/ring of warding/ unsteady ground behind the thief, and hope they’re dumb enough to withdraw into it. Even then, I think the heal applies instantly, so they’d just not roll back the full distance.

It needs a real cast time, not a ’I’m evading, just thought I’d let you know how long I’m evading for’ cast time.

what a contradictory topic mate! .. ring of warding is a rare skill nowdays! +dont forget to leave a gap in the circle to let the thief withdaw out somehow!
also pls make sure, before you suggest shlt like this cast time idea to at least write after it to give thieves 20k baseline hp to endure pressure while casting! deal?

Shadow of Azrael.1205:

Well, some heals hard or impossible to counter with poison. Like consume conditions ;-)

uhmm…so? withdraw is hard or impossible to interrupt. so what makes it so special?

and.,..would you heal if you had poison on you? you would rather wait it out before healing right?

Poison directly hard counters per tick heals. (TU, HS)

MadVisions.4529:

Xiahou Mao.9701:

Shadow of Azrael.1205:

Withdraw doesnt clear poison, there your counter play.

Ah, but traited Withdraw will…

(assuming anyone actually gives up Bountiful Theft to trait Withdraw’s cooldown)

which wont happen. so poison is indeed a counterplay.

the skill is trong but nerfing it going to effect all the builds that thieves dont use becouse of d/p being dominant.

Fay.2357:

The problem is that withdraw is a heal with zero counterplay. Literally the only way to interrupt it would be to put a static field/line of warding/ring of warding/ unsteady ground behind the thief, and hope they’re dumb enough to withdraw into it. Even then, I think the heal applies instantly, so they’d just not roll back the full distance.

It needs a real cast time, not a ’I’m evading, just thought I’d let you know how long I’m evading for’ cast time.

what a contradictory topic mate! .. ring of warding is a rare skill nowdays! +dont forget to leave a gap in the circle to let the thief withdaw out somehow!
also pls make sure, before you suggest shlt like this cast time idea to at least write after it to give thieves 20k baseline hp to endure pressure while casting! deal?

LOL. Ring of warding is on a 40 sec cooldown mate. Your argument is invalid. 3/4 casting time, I am sure thieves can avoid that. So JI + warding, blow off 2 cds just to avoid that dilemma?

Seriously thieves can be sure be flopping again after all the buffs they are getting.

And here we have a bunch of lrn2players crying about a heal that doesn’t stealth a thief, merely evades, upset that it has no counterplay.

Let’s completely forget about signet of healing on warriors, cleansing ire and heals on instant cast shouts that can also remove conditions! Those are perfectly acceptable even though they actually have no counter play and are far more spammable unlike this bs that withdraw doesn’t have counterplay which hilariously, some honest counterplay has been listed to it. Sure, it’s not a 100% complete hard counter to it, but this game wasn’t catered to brainless players who …

Wait, wait … nevermind. I see why people are QQ’ing now.

Jesiah.2457:

And here we have a bunch of lrn2players crying about a heal that doesn’t stealth a thief, merely evades, upset that it has no counterplay.

Let’s completely forget about signet of healing on warriors, cleansing ire and heals on instant cast shouts that can also remove conditions! Those are perfectly acceptable even though they actually have no counter play and are far more spammable unlike this bs that withdraw doesn’t have counterplay which hilariously, some honest counterplay has been listed to it. Sure, it’s not a 100% complete hard counter to it, but this game wasn’t catered to brainless players who …

Wait, wait … nevermind. I see why people are QQ’ing now.

Oh, believe me, I’ve got plenty of harsh criticisms for healing signet and cleansing ire. I’m not quiet about my concerns with those skills in any way.

However, this thread is about withdraw, not about healing signet and cleansing ire. Those are also broken, but that doesn’t make withdraw less broken.

Withdraw is looked at as best healskill in the game (among a few others→healing turret,healing signet) by most parts of the community with at least a bit experience in pvp.

Thief is played either with much stealth or much evades and always with a lot of ports, so its a very hard to catch enemy.

The Heal Withdraw is like an additional free escape + heal all 15 seconds where most other classes got a skill which is easy to interrupt,has a bigger cooldown,makes them vulnerable while casting,makes them use defensive utilites like stability for casting it.

Th Argument, poison would be the counterplay is irrelevant since its the counterplay for every healskill (but consuming conditions).

Weez.6315:

Th Argument, poison would be the counterplay is irrelevant since its the counterplay for every healskill (but consuming conditions).

Nope, there are heals and traits that remove poison specifically besides Consume conditions and there are heals with general condi removal built in.

Meta Healing Skills:

Mesmer – Ether Feast – No condition Cleanse
Guardian – Shelter – No condition Cleanse
Warrior – Healing Signet – No condi Cleanse
Ranger – Troll Unguent – No condi cleanse
Ele – Signet of Restoration – No condi Cleanse
Engi – Turret – Cleanses 2 condition →no certain venom cleanse

You can see the meta builds here →metabattle.com

For example for mesmer there is a condi cleanse trait on heal available which isnt in the meta because bad traitline.

With the name “Shadow of Azrael” u probably play thief, but please stay objective and dont use false arguments.

Noone talked about meta heals, besides meta will change in 1 week.

And I have played every class, my first main character in gw2 was an engineer, lol.

yes lets talk about niche healing skills in a thread about nerfing/not nerfing one of the strongest heals ingame. makes sense

they should either nerf withdraw aswell or remove the skill category. fyi ether renewal is on a 18s cd (from 15 before) now so it would only be fair if everything gets the same treatment. same for consume condis.

Shadow of Azrael.1205:

Noone talked about meta heals, besides meta will change in 1 week.

And I have played every class, my first main character in gw2 was an engineer, lol.

sure, you played every class, but we’re pretty sure your main pvp toon is a thief, hence the defense for withdraw nerf, in comparison to other classes healing skills.

Tbh, thief players will forever ardently defend Withdraw, as I do with CC, which is normal tho.

rchu.8945:

Shadow of Azrael.1205:

Noone talked about meta heals, besides meta will change in 1 week.

And I have played every class, my first main character in gw2 was an engineer, lol.

sure, you played every class, but we’re pretty sure your main pvp toon is a thief, hence the defense for withdraw nerf, in comparison to other classes healing skills.

Sherlock, I’m pretty sure you’r WRONG. Though I admit, i do like thief playstyle.

ImdA.4701:

Tbh, thief players will forever ardently defend Withdraw, as I do with CC, which is normal tho.

I consider myself still a thief player, yet i would say no stealth thief would run withdraw if we didn’t have condi remove in stealth and insta-cast stealth skill.

I tried going crit strike D/P again, without HiS it dies from random burning + few hits.

Gud times they were, skill based thief is just a shade in the past.

Because no one would use withdraw if it had a cast time. The whole point of it is that is evades and doesn’t have a cast time. If it had a 1 second cast time everyone would just use HiS for a stronger heal + damaging condi removal + stealth > stealth attack.

let’s completely ignore huge difference between mechanics from different classes and just flatly compare healing skills……… dat logic

Khandarus.2738:

Oh no a dodge that throws them back 600 units or so, so OP /sarcasim

It can potentially lead to pretty op builds when its on a 15sec cd and combined with vamp runes >.<

Grimreaper.5370:

Khandarus.2738:

Oh no a dodge that throws them back 600 units or so, so OP /sarcasim

It can potentially lead to pretty op builds when its on a 15sec cd and combined with vamp runes >.<

Also when it clears all impaired movement conditions (this is NOT a small thing) on the class that already has the highest movement and disengage potential in the game it can lead to a lot of uncounterable fight resets in a very short time frame. Head scratching balance decisions as usual.

Sweetbread.4701:

Grimreaper.5370:

Khandarus.2738:

Oh no a dodge that throws them back 600 units or so, so OP /sarcasim

It can potentially lead to pretty op builds when its on a 15sec cd and combined with vamp runes >.<

Also when it clears all impaired movement conditions (this is NOT a small thing) on the class that already has the highest movement and disengage potential in the game it can lead to a lot of uncounterable fight resets in a very short time frame. Head scratching balance decisions as usual.

and then forget that evades or stealth is only thing thieves have for defense….

i mean other classes don’t have invuls, blocks, multiple heals, high uptime on protection, high armor, higher HP…. nope, not at all~

btw, for all of you uninformed: withdraw did get increase on CD and it can’t be activated while being CCd~

Sweetbread.4701:

Also when it clears all impaired movement conditions (this is NOT a small thing) on the class that already has the highest movement and disengage potential in the game it can lead to a lot of uncounterable fight resets in a very short time frame. Head scratching balance decisions as usual.

That’s because a thief that can’t move is a dead thief… period. We can’t take hits like other professions. We can’t clear conditions like other professions. We can’t go invulnerable like other professions.

We have to keep moving or we are dead. That’s why the new Hard to Catch and Don’t Stop traits are exciting to me. Will they go meta? Time will tell. But I plan on making good use of them.

Then again, I’m not a stealth-reliant thief. I like to put as much pressure on a target as I can. I really do have to learn to disengage more.

Cynz.9437:

Sweetbread.4701:

Grimreaper.5370:

Khandarus.2738:

Oh no a dodge that throws them back 600 units or so, so OP /sarcasim

It can potentially lead to pretty op builds when its on a 15sec cd and combined with vamp runes >.<

Also when it clears all impaired movement conditions (this is NOT a small thing) on the class that already has the highest movement and disengage potential in the game it can lead to a lot of uncounterable fight resets in a very short time frame. Head scratching balance decisions as usual.

and then forget that evades or stealth is only thing thieves have for defense….

i mean other classes don’t have invuls, blocks, multiple heals, high uptime on protection, high armor, higher HP…. nope, not at all~

btw, for all of you uninformed: withdraw did get increase on CD and it can’t be activated while being CCd~

Well, immobilize is a CC that gets cleared by withdraw which is a strong aspectof that heal.
But to a lot of arguments and QQ on that thread. Not even have an idea about the impact of an increased cd to 18sec. Not having the big picture in your mind.

Old withdraw + effects:
D/P – 15sec cd heal, evade and cures cripple, immobilize and chill. every 15sec because of the heal together with vamp-rune a burst/heal improve of 975, which has to land on the enemy.
S/D – 15sec cd heal, evade and cures cripple, immobilize and chill. Every 15sec vigor on heal for 6 1/2 sec. High vigor uptime together with Feline Grace and flanking strike giving a lot of dodges.

Now withdraw + effect:
Heal on 18sec. Effect of vamp-rune every 18sec. vigor on heal every 18sec and Vigor on 5sec, while the trait has to compete with pain response, a very important skill for condiremove. Vigor itself nerfed, feline grace nerfed.

Still complaining?

Fay.2357:

Jesiah.2457:

And here we have a bunch of lrn2players crying about a heal that doesn’t stealth a thief, merely evades, upset that it has no counterplay.

Let’s completely forget about signet of healing on warriors, cleansing ire and heals on instant cast shouts that can also remove conditions! Those are perfectly acceptable even though they actually have no counter play and are far more spammable unlike this bs that withdraw doesn’t have counterplay which hilariously, some honest counterplay has been listed to it. Sure, it’s not a 100% complete hard counter to it, but this game wasn’t catered to brainless players who …

Wait, wait … nevermind. I see why people are QQ’ing now.

Oh, believe me, I’ve got plenty of harsh criticisms for healing signet and cleansing ire. I’m not quiet about my concerns with those skills in any way.

However, this thread is about withdraw, not about healing signet and cleansing ire. Those are also broken, but that doesn’t make withdraw less broken.

You need to read the changes to thief Fay.

Withdraw is going to be 18s

You either give up boon stealing for it to be 15s or you deal with it.

You cant take Vigorous recovery and pain response anymore.

vigor is getting reduced across the board by 50%, forcing thieves that want any type of evasion into acro to make it 100%.

Secondly.

There are a lot of skills through a few proffessions that can’t be interrupted, and are either directly countered through poison or positioned CC.

Gaurdian Shelter
Engineer healing turrent
Ranger troll Ungent
And Warriors healing signet

We don’t see any threads about these classes come up often, I think it’s because most people have an very big learning curve when it comes to stealth classes.

Also, Lets not forget that more classes that could already do well against thieves are getting some type of skill to reveal thieves while they are stealth.

Does any class so far have a counter skill that can completely shut down a single traitline for them? Other than thief?

Just going to laugh my butt off when they get tons of improv. procs that recharge their heal (as it is now a skill type), which also isn’t interruptible.

Thief is honestly going to be so broken, it might actually be worth taking 2 if you have 2 good ones.

Solori.6025:

You need to read the changes to thief Fay.

Withdraw is going to be 18s

A longer cooldown doesn’t make it less broken due to lack of counterplay. It’s also acquiring a higher base heal and higher heal scaling with that cooldown, so I’d recommend you read the changes.

Solori.6025:

You either give up boon stealing for it to be 15s or you deal with it.

Yes, ‘deal with’ a higher heal on a higher cooldown. Ok.

Solori.6025:

You cant take Vigorous recovery and pain response anymore.

Pain response is hardly a vital trait, particularly with the access to condition removal through stealth that thieves will be acquiring with those changes that you love so much.

Solori.6025:

vigor is getting reduced across the board by 50%, forcing thieves that want any type of evasion into acro to make it 100%.

Which puts them 2x ahead of every single other class in the game. The disparity is simply going to get even worse with these changes.

Solori.6025:

There are a lot of skills through a few proffessions that can’t be interrupted, and are either directly countered through poison or positioned CC.
Gaurdian Shelter
Engineer healing turrent
Ranger troll Ungent
And Warriors healing signet

Shelter can be interrupted by unblockable cc. Healing turret, I hate when people spell that wrong, is broken. Troll unguent has a significant cast time, and that’s a really cool thing called counterplay. Healing signet is broken.

Solori.6025:

We don’t see any threads about these classes come up often, I think it’s because most people have an very big learning curve when it comes to stealth classes.

Are you kidding me? People post about how broken healing signet and healing turret are all the time. Troll unguent is barely taken, which is obviously because it’s so broken according to you, and shelter is balanced due to its very long cooldown and available counterplay through unblockable cc.

Solori.6025:

Also, Lets not forget that more classes that could already do well against thieves are getting some type of skill to reveal thieves while they are stealth.

Does any class so far have a counter skill that can completely shut down a single traitline for them? Other than thief?

I’ll do one better, I can show you something that shuts down an entire class mechanic! Heavy aoe pressure will instakill any mesmer phantasms or clones. This eliminates the unique mesmer class mechanics with no effective possibility of counterplay outside of simply avoiding that aoe pressure.

Fay.2357:

Solori.6025:

You need to read the changes to thief Fay.

Withdraw is going to be 18s

A longer cooldown doesn’t make it less broken due to lack of counterplay. It’s also acquiring a higher base heal and higher heal scaling with that cooldown, so I’d recommend you read the changes.

Fair, but forgive me if I don’t see 10% as a huge buff compared to the lose of other mechanics that thief will have to suffer through.(mainly the missing dagger traits, and the nerf to feline grace, and practiced tolerance. )

Fay.2357:

Solori.6025:

You cant take Vigorous recovery and pain response anymore.

Pain response is hardly a vital trait, particularly with the access to condition removal through stealth that thieves will be acquiring with those changes that you love so much.

Depends on the build you decide to make.
For example, if you are roaming in a pvp map with an engi or two on the other team SA wont help you, pain response becomes the next best thing.

Sure you can get SA and Acro, but then you are limiting your choices for other utility that helps with DPS.

Fay.2357:

Solori.6025:

vigor is getting reduced across the board by 50%, forcing thieves that want any type of evasion into acro to make it 100%.

Which puts them 2x ahead of every single other class in the game. The disparity is simply going to get even worse with these changes.

I doubt that. Especially with the buffs my love child got.
The IP change opened a lot of new windows for me.
HEll the buffs that mesmer got in general are something that has made me excited about the change.
( and I totally deleted that necro)

On topic, no, I don’t think that thieves got 2x ahead of everyone, I think that a couple of classes got ways to deal with thieves, including mesmer’s.

Fay.2357:

Solori.6025:

There are a lot of skills through a few proffessions that can’t be interrupted, and are either directly countered through poison or positioned CC.
Gaurdian Shelter
Engineer healing turrent
Ranger troll Ungent
And Warriors healing signet

Shelter can be interrupted by unblockable cc. Healing turret, I hate when people spell that wrong, is broken. Troll unguent has a significant cast time, and that’s a really cool thing called counterplay. Healing signet is broken.

I wouldn’t call those broken <_<..
Just skills that have fewer counterplay than other things.
Like stealth.

You cant interrupt most stealth skills, and unless your and engi or guard, you cant force them out either.
Are we going to nerf those also?

What about fresh air strikes?

Also, didn’t you just list a bunch of CC that stops Withdraw?!

Fay.2357:

Solori.6025:

We don’t see any threads about these classes come up often, I think it’s because most people have an very big learning curve when it comes to stealth classes.

Are you kidding me? People post about how broken healing signet and healing turret are all the time. Troll unguent is barely taken, which is obviously because it’s so broken according to you, and shelter is balanced due to its very long cooldown and available counterplay through unblockable cc.

Sorry, but I honestly can’t remember the last time in this forum I saw anyone complain about heal turret (happy?)
OR healing signet since the last time it was nerfed

Fay.2357:

Solori.6025:

Also, Lets not forget that more classes that could already do well against thieves are getting some type of skill to reveal thieves while they are stealth.

Does any class so far have a counter skill that can completely shut down a single traitline for them? Other than thief?

I’ll do one better, I can show you something that shuts down an entire class mechanic! Heavy aoe pressure will instakill any mesmer phantasms or clones. This eliminates the unique mesmer class mechanics with no effective possibility of counterplay outside of simply avoiding that aoe pressure.

That may be so for phantasm builds.
I play a shatter build.
There honestly isn’t a a large amount of uptime for my phantasms that I have personally noticed AoE being an issue in pvp

But I will also concede this point that it may be a issue for others.

Though, If i remember correctly…Aren’t mesmer’s getting a trait that makes there newly summoned phantasm’s immune to damage?

Solori.6025:

Fair, but forgive me if I don’t see 10% as a huge buff compared to the lose of other mechanics that thief will have to suffer through.(mainly the missing dagger traits, and the nerf to feline grace, and practiced tolerance. )

You’re saying this as though thieves aren’t getting other substantial boosts. Baseline traits for steal, f2 QoL, drastic buff to haste, stronger venoms, thieves are getting a lot of nice things.

Solori.6025:

Depends on the build you decide to make.
For example, if you are roaming in a pvp map with an engi or two on the other team SA wont help you, pain response becomes the next best thing.

Sure, and then you have to gasp make a meaningful choice! You shouldn’t be able to take all the best traits in every build, you should have to make sacrifices when choosing to spec towards one thing or another.

Solori.6025:

I doubt that. Especially with the buffs my love child got.

That…wasn’t an opinion up for debate. That was a fact. If all classes are down to 50% on vigor, and thieves trait for 100%, then they’re 2x ahead of all the other classes. Math doesn’t lie.

Solori.6025:

The IP change opened a lot of new windows for me.
HEll the buffs that mesmer got in general are something that has made me excited about the change.
( and I totally deleted that necro)

Mesmers got a bunch of nice buffs certainly…but withdraw is still broken. You can’t just point fingers around going ‘but they got cool things too!’ and expect that to be a good explanation as to why withdraw is broken.

Solori.6025:

You cant interrupt most stealth skills, and unless your and engi or guard, you cant force them out either.
Are we going to nerf those also?

The vast majority of stealth skills have very solid counterplay. BP—> HSS is counterplayable through an interrupt. CnD is counterplayable through an interrupt, block, blind, dodge, etc. Shadow refuge has strong counterplay in the form of knockbacks. There are a couple that don’t, but the majority do, and the ones that don’t are usually panic buttons.

Solori.6025:

What about fresh air strikes?

You mean the build that got nerfed into the ground with the changes?

Solori.6025:

Also, didn’t you just list a bunch of CC that stops Withdraw?!

No, I listed a bunch of ground effects that will interrupt the movement portion of withdraw if the thief is stupid enough to withdraw into it. It won’t stop the heal, it won’t stop the removal of movement impairing conditions, and it won’t stop all of the evasion. That’s hardly a counter.

Solori.6025:

Sorry, but I honestly can’t remember the last time in this forum I saw anyone complain about heal turret (happy?)
OR healing signet since the last time it was nerfed

That’s because people tend to complain about the overall builds (shoutbow, turret engie, celery engie) rather than specific skills that make them overpowered.

Solori.6025:

That may be so for phantasm builds.
I play a shatter build.
There honestly isn’t a a large amount of uptime for my phantasms that I have personally noticed AoE being an issue in pvp

Shatter builds are still countered by heavy aoe pressure, not just phantasm builds. There’s a very good reason mesmers can’t do damage in WvW groups…shatters and phantasms both don’t work under heavy aoe pressure. Trying to land shatters on top of a hotly contested point is much the same.

Solori.6025:

Though, If i remember correctly…Aren’t mesmer’s getting a trait that makes there newly summoned phantasm’s immune to damage?

We already have that trait. It makes them invulnerable for 1 second on summon. Only the iZerker will attack fully in that 1 second. The iWarden will just begin its spin, the iSwordsman will start walking towards its target, the iMage will kitten around as usual, the iWarlock might get an attack off but probably won’t and is easy to avoid anyway, and the iDuelist will get through only a couple bullets of its unload.

Hardly effective.

Withdraw was nerfed.

20% longer CD for 10% more healing – that’s pretty much the definition of a nerf.

IB4 – “but you can take trickster! and it’s 4% faster!” – Yes, we could take trickster…to bad no one ever will, since it competes with BT (and requiring a trait to get it back to its old CD would still be a nerf)

Fay.2357:

That…wasn’t an opinion up for debate. That was a fact. If all classes are down to 50% on vigor, and thieves trait for 100%, then they’re 2x ahead of all the other classes. Math doesn’t lie.

Engineer:
Adrenal Implant: Endurance regeneration is increased by 50%.
And that’s without having to have vigor.

Laraley.7695:

Lordrosicky.5813:

It should have a 1 second cast time before the heal and evade happens. Its not like they cant get it off in stealth or by porting away anyway. Add some counter play to it

Lol, then all thieves would start using Hide in Shadows cause this would be completely useless. It’s also used for the immob cleanse and if you put 1 sec cast time on it, it completely lose its purpose.

Don’t forget all the tourney thieves have SA now !!! This will make HiS way better comparatively than it used to be

Fay.2357:

That…wasn’t an opinion up for debate. That was a fact. If all classes are down to 50% on vigor, and thieves trait for 100%, then they’re 2x ahead of all the other classes. Math doesn’t lie.

Sorry I misinterpreted this as your form of opinion stating the class gets 2x better not that literally the buffs they can gain get 2x better.
I agree the buff they get does get 2x better, But the class as a whole (imo) does not immediatly get 2x better or ahead of the others, just because it now has vigor that works pre-nerf

Fay.2357:

Mesmers got a bunch of nice buffs certainly…but withdraw is still broken. You can’t just point fingers around going ‘but they got cool things too!’ and expect that to be a good explanation as to why withdraw is broken.

You keep saying it’s broken.
Here is a thought though,
Remember when the community said healing signet was broken, they added math to why it was broken compared to every other heal skill in the game.
Then the devs ( granted it was 6 months later) nerfed said healing signet.
Why hasn’t the community as a whole( or at least the vocal part of it) done the same thing for both healing turret and withdraw, if these two things themselves are broken?

We did it once before.

Fay.2357:

The vast majority of stealth skills have very solid counterplay. BP—> HSS is counterplayable through an interrupt. CnD is counterplayable through an interrupt, block, blind, dodge, etc. Shadow refuge has strong counterplay in the form of knockbacks. There are a couple that don’t, but the majority do, and the ones that don’t are usually panic buttons.

So, it’s excusable because a few don’t but the majority do.

By your admittance there are very few heal skills and only on 3 professions that are broken ( your words). And you’re targetting one of them to be nerfed.
Double standards, hypocrisy, or both.

If we are going to nerf skills because they have “to little counterplay” we need to nerf all of them.

Fay.2357:

Solori.6025:

What about fresh air strikes?

You mean the build that got nerfed into the ground with the changes?

How did this build get nerfed?
I am honestly curious why you think this.

Fay.2357:

No, I listed a bunch of ground effects that will interrupt the movement portion of withdraw if the thief is stupid enough to withdraw into it.

Plenty of players are dumb enough to use there heal skills in very unoptimal conditions, doesn’t make the list of ground interrupts you listed any less viable as options.
And there is still poison.

Fay.2357:

That’s because people tend to complain about the overall builds (shoutbow, turret engie, celery engie) rather than specific skills that make them overpowered.

I think this is false
Dhummfire, turrets, ele healing, healing signet, spirits.

All of those things have seen stand alone threads and complaints and all of those have been nerfed in the past because the pvp community being vocal as a whole ( or a partial whole…there were a lot of complaints) said that they were an issue. They all got “fixed”.
Where are the complaint threads about the broken heal skills and skills with too little counterplay?

Fay.2357:

Solori.6025:

That may be so for phantasm builds.
I play a shatter build.
There honestly isn’t a a large amount of uptime for my phantasms that I have personally noticed AoE being an issue in pvp

Shatter builds are still countered by heavy aoe pressure, not just phantasm builds. There’s a very good reason mesmers can’t do damage in WvW groups…shatters and phantasms both don’t work under heavy aoe pressure. Trying to land shatters on top of a hotly contested point is much the same.

that is similar to telling someone that it is hard to land a burst rotation standing in a red circle.

Fay.2357:

We already have that trait. It makes them invulnerable for 1 second on summon. Only the iZerker will attack fully in that 1 second. The iWarden will just begin its spin, the iSwordsman will start walking towards its target, the iMage will kitten around as usual, the iWarlock might get an attack off but probably won’t and is easy to avoid anyway, and the iDuelist will get through only a couple bullets of its unload.

Hardly effective.

That indeed sucks, I haven’t tried that trait line, was honestly gonna try it with the changes because it is no longer required to be illusions if you want to shatter.
Shame, guess I will just remove condies and heal then :I