Guild Wars 2

Pinko.2076:

markic.4359:

Pinko.2076:

markic.4359:

there is nothing wrong with the patch and AC buff

its sad to see how many people are crying because 100 of them cant mash 1 on reinforced doors and capture it in 2mins anymore

finally you have to use strategy and brain to do something but i guess thats to much for some people

im from Gandara and yesterday we lost Bay from AG (Guilds DAWN and NP or NR hmmm)
anyway they did it briliantly…they got outer gate before we even noticed it….then treb inner walls….we couldnt stop them so we built lot of siege inside lords room and they knew it….so they just portal bombed us and wiped easy

game finally gets more then just 100 people following 1 commander and pressing 1 on the doors

There’s not a game requirement that you must be outmanned to use an arrow cart. Now you’re happy because you can either a) get rolled or b) turtle forever.

If only 1 vs 100 can do that, what do you think is happening in most tiers when it’s relatively even odds like 30 v 30? The death of fights. It’s a war to see who can throw down the cheapest strongest siege in the game, and then stare at each other.

Every fight on reset, the opposing side was choosing to turtle forever. I don’t think that’s a good direction for this game to go.

first of all you cannot turtle forever…you can turtle till you have enough supplies to repair walls/gate

in both even or outmanned fights if you cant breach the gate….go for treb or cata…
and here is the real problem (people are just to lazy or just not wise enough to know places where to build catas and trebs that cant be countered)

if you did that you would pretty much push defenders to come charge you and there you get your fight

its really easy but not enough people and guilds are wise and organized enough

Let’s ignore that I was talking about open field fights where carts are being thrown down at every fight.

You’re saying that people are too lazy to invest 5 hours per keep. Do you really think that the game mode should be exclusive to people that rather interact with objects instead of players? If you were making a game, would you design it such that on the average day, your playbase was just interacting with static objects rather than human players?

I don’t see a lot of longevity for designing a game around stalemating. People ultimately world versus world to fight players.

That a very bad all or nothing point of view you can attk keeps and try to take them until you can but if its well defended then its going to be painful and long. The trick is to know when to give up on a target or better yet know when to go after 2 to more targets at once. Soon you can use the fact that they have a well defended keep as a liability in that they put way too much into that keep to lose it so they must defend it at all cost. Then you start turning the game on your terms.

Paxus.6543:

I have read almost all of this thread and I really can not believe some of the egos here. Countless posts have stated how uber leet guilds oppose it so therefore they are right because they are soo leet in their eyes. Then they go on and talk about all those that are not in these uber leet guilds as being scrubs that do not know anything. So are you saying these “scrubs” can use this to their advantage more then a uber leet guild? If said guild was so great they should adapt much easier then a “scrub” to such changes.. Or is it that the “scrubs” opinion just doesn’t matter because they are not qualified to talk about such things.

That logic is flawed. Very flawed. This has nothing to do with adapting, this has everything to do with diminishing a potential for skill gap. Have you ever heard of power creep? In terms of balance it is when overall things are buffed and even though everybody has access to the same tools the game is still imbalanced for it.

To give you the extreme case scenario, you can have a game like GW2 for dueling which incoroporates skill. Or you can have a game where both enemy players have a single button that can 1 shot the enemy. Both players have the same tools, but somehow I doubt in the latter situation the better player will always win, and if they win it wont be by a substantial manner because there is not enough room to demonstrate skill. That is what power creep does.

The egos in this thread are justified, the guilds in reference already have proved they can play the game better, its not really something to debate. The organized guilds understand the game far better than any of the pugs in every single facet and aspect.

ACs were a power creep for siege. It is clear to anybody who is capable of theorycrafting or contemplating the impacts of certain changes. The clueless pugs are the people who bring in anecdotal evidence like dumb videos, or say “I capped something”. The better players understand that it is a silly argument to make to defend a case.

Jski.6180:

Pinko.2076:

markic.4359:

Pinko.2076:

markic.4359:

there is nothing wrong with the patch and AC buff

its sad to see how many people are crying because 100 of them cant mash 1 on reinforced doors and capture it in 2mins anymore

finally you have to use strategy and brain to do something but i guess thats to much for some people

im from Gandara and yesterday we lost Bay from AG (Guilds DAWN and NP or NR hmmm)
anyway they did it briliantly…they got outer gate before we even noticed it….then treb inner walls….we couldnt stop them so we built lot of siege inside lords room and they knew it….so they just portal bombed us and wiped easy

game finally gets more then just 100 people following 1 commander and pressing 1 on the doors

There’s not a game requirement that you must be outmanned to use an arrow cart. Now you’re happy because you can either a) get rolled or b) turtle forever.

If only 1 vs 100 can do that, what do you think is happening in most tiers when it’s relatively even odds like 30 v 30? The death of fights. It’s a war to see who can throw down the cheapest strongest siege in the game, and then stare at each other.

Every fight on reset, the opposing side was choosing to turtle forever. I don’t think that’s a good direction for this game to go.

first of all you cannot turtle forever…you can turtle till you have enough supplies to repair walls/gate

in both even or outmanned fights if you cant breach the gate….go for treb or cata…
and here is the real problem (people are just to lazy or just not wise enough to know places where to build catas and trebs that cant be countered)

if you did that you would pretty much push defenders to come charge you and there you get your fight

its really easy but not enough people and guilds are wise and organized enough

Let’s ignore that I was talking about open field fights where carts are being thrown down at every fight.

You’re saying that people are too lazy to invest 5 hours per keep. Do you really think that the game mode should be exclusive to people that rather interact with objects instead of players? If you were making a game, would you design it such that on the average day, your playbase was just interacting with static objects rather than human players?

I don’t see a lot of longevity for designing a game around stalemating. People ultimately world versus world to fight players.

That a very bad all or nothing point of view you can attk keeps and try to take them until you can but if its well defended then its going to be painful and long. The trick is to know when to give up on a target or better yet know when to go after 2 to more targets at once. Soon you can use the fact that they have a well defended keep as a liability in that they put way too much into that keep to lose it so they must defend it at all cost. Then you start turning the game on your terms.

The game needs to be balanced assuming everyone is competent. This goes for PvE, sPvP, and WvW. If everyone is competent in the keep, they can defend double their numbers for 5 hours easily, especially after swirling winds is gone. Pre-carted, pre-trebbed, waypointed, fortified, 20-30 good pvp’ers, and that keep isn’t going anywhere any time soon.

90% of the time the pre-trebs and pre-carts drive people off because it’s evident that it’s going to be a VERY long fight. Are people leaving because they’re lazy, or because it’s extremely boring?

Again, this is ignoring that the original post is talking about carts that are being thrown EVERYWHERE and not just keeps. Open field carts are becoming all the rage. Some like carts because smaller populations can use them to hold off larger numbers, but it’s being ignored that larger populations can use them to hold off people just as much, and to better effect~

Arrow Carts are to be used by Elementalists now that Elementalists can’t do anything.

In all seriousness though, you shouldn’t get the increased damage in arrow carts from just the patch. You should have to train to get it to that amount.

Normal Arrow Cart with 0 points in mastery
Pre-patch avg. damage: 600
Post-patch avg. damage: 1k-1200.
Carts that go the same distance as a cata is OP, too.
Carts, the cheapest piece of siege (along with the ram), have better mastery bonuses than all of the others. And you thought ballistas were OP (they are, too.)

Make them scale to player power. These siege are way out of sync with pvp.

This really comes down to if you want the siege vs siege to be the main show or you want player on player action to be the main show.

Siege vs. Siege (push 1,2,3) is far less dynamic. In a player vs player fight everyone is acting and reacting constantly… Vs. one person mans the siege the rest sit and watch or run supplies. You don’t have to set up any combo fields or use nearly as many tatics. Heck, you don’t even need to have gear, be above level 1, have utilities, etc etc. There is FAR less skill involved with siege being so strong.

Before they supported players… which was good for both people who like to fight and those who like to siege. But now…

katniss.6735:

Arrow Carts are to be used by Elementalists now that Elementalists can’t do anything.

In all seriousness though, you shouldn’t get the increased damage in arrow carts from just the patch. You should have to train to get it to that amount.

Normal Arrow Cart with 0 points in mastery
Pre-patch avg. damage: 600
Post-patch avg. damage: 1k-1200.
Carts that go the same distance as a cata is OP, too.
Carts, the cheapest piece of siege (along with the ram), have better mastery bonuses than all of the others. And you thought ballistas were OP (they are, too.)

Make them scale to player power. These siege are way out of sync with pvp.

haha yeah it’s wayy over the top..i always get tons of laughs in ts when someone attacks 1 of our keeps and we have 3 superior ac’s up.

Pinko.2076:

The game needs to be balanced assuming everyone is competent. This goes for PvE, sPvP, and WvW. If everyone is competent in the keep, they can defend double their numbers for 5 hours easily, especially after swirling winds is gone. Pre-carted, pre-trebbed, waypointed, fortified, 20-30 good pvp’ers, and that keep isn’t going anywhere any time soon.

90% of the time the pre-trebs and pre-carts drive people off because it’s evident that it’s going to be a VERY long fight. Are people leaving because they’re lazy, or because it’s extremely boring?

Again, this is ignoring that the original post is talking about carts that are being thrown EVERYWHERE and not just keeps. Open field carts are becoming all the rage. Some like carts because smaller populations can use them to hold off larger numbers, but it’s being ignored that larger populations can use them to hold off people just as much, and to better effect~

That the truth about having walls this is how midevil war was if you had walls it took the attking side time to get you out of it even if the ones attking had a great deal more numbers. The way it works in GW2 that you can take down walls and doors non upgraded with ease but if you let them get supplies to there keeps and towers then it will become harder. There is adages to moving in small groups taking out supple camps and doelys. It makes tower and keeps far softer targets and on the same note its worth defining camps and doelys to make sure your keeps and towers are well upgraded. They could make it a one day event death match but that not realty wvw and your going to have to make it where only level 80 can go in and or where your level 80 once you go in much like in Spvp and you have no real chose over your gear. WvW is well made as is they may want to drop the number of weapons you can drop at any given spot so you would have to make a chose do i want a AC here or do i want a treb to make this point have a use other then just being a point holder.

Our guild likes to strategize for what we need for open field. But now it feels like we need to strategize for huge kiting circles to escape that one troll that drops an arrow cart at the back. I don’t think the devs thought about that part. We already play vs greater number of openents, but 1 cart is equivalent to 20 additional players with even more range. It’s really stupid.

Jackie.1829:

Paxus.6543:

I have read almost all of this thread and I really can not believe some of the egos here. Countless posts have stated how uber leet guilds oppose it so therefore they are right because they are soo leet in their eyes. Then they go on and talk about all those that are not in these uber leet guilds as being scrubs that do not know anything. So are you saying these “scrubs” can use this to their advantage more then a uber leet guild? If said guild was so great they should adapt much easier then a “scrub” to such changes.. Or is it that the “scrubs” opinion just doesn’t matter because they are not qualified to talk about such things.

That logic is flawed. Very flawed. This has nothing to do with adapting, this has everything to do with diminishing a potential for skill gap. Have you ever heard of power creep? In terms of balance it is when overall things are buffed and even though everybody has access to the same tools the game is still imbalanced for it.

To give you the extreme case scenario, you can have a game like GW2 for dueling which incoroporates skill. Or you can have a game where both enemy players have a single button that can 1 shot the enemy. Both players have the same tools, but somehow I doubt in the latter situation the better player will always win, and if they win it wont be by a substantial manner because there is not enough room to demonstrate skill. That is what power creep does.

The egos in this thread are justified, the guilds in reference already have proved they can play the game better, its not really something to debate. The organized guilds understand the game far better than any of the pugs in every single facet and aspect.

ACs were a power creep for siege. It is clear to anybody who is capable of theorycrafting or contemplating the impacts of certain changes. The clueless pugs are the people who bring in anecdotal evidence like dumb videos, or say “I capped something”. The better players understand that it is a silly argument to make to defend a case.

Ok so what you are saying is that these guilds figured out how to dominate other players and because of this nothing should be implemented in the game so that there domination and tactics should ever be challenged. Its kinda like we were smart enough to play this game with the current set of rules and nothing should ever be changed so that we might have to change our strategy or gameplay in the slightest.
You say that these egos are justified because these folks learned to play the game better or for many of them probably joined a guild that taught them how to win with the tools available to them. And a majority of those tools are the use of stacking which is only as powerful as it is because of the ae nerf. Since your logic is about players using players skills how bout instead of the ac buff they remove the ae cap? In all honesty I think the end result would be much worse but we will probably never find that one out.
To imply that because someone is not part of a large guild that runs organized wvw they have no clue about the dynamics of wvw and how it works is just ignorant. Essentially in your reply here you are saying anyone that presents any kind of support of the changes has no clue what they are talking about and what your side of the argument is saying is completely valid in every way. I personally belong to a small guild and run around solo a lot. I guess I could be considered one of these “scrubs” then? I actually hate using siege and almost never use it, I just help build it.
I in no way find it to be game breaking as people here keep saying but as I stated previously some adjustments are needed. One additional possibility that I have not seen mentioned would be to extend the cool down on the skills of the AC a little bit. That along with what Devon has already mentioned should give this change some balance. Just to point out, I do not belong to one of these elite guilds so please remember that when considering my suggestions.

DevonCarver.5370:

I’d like to shed some light on our thinking with this AC change as well as tell you all what we are doing right now to balance it.

Firstly, when siege weapons were originally created, they had the intent of being really good at some things and not so good at others. The arrow cart is intended to be the anti-personal siege weapon. It is intended that arrow carts are all about controlling an area through damage. If you remain in the area that is being hit by the arrow cart, you will die. You can however, move out of the space and/or find a new way to attack the intended target. That being said, they are not intended to be so good against other siege weapons and we are in the process of addressing that right now. We are also addressing their range when upgraded to be more in line with the range of ballistas.

Secondly, this change is going to require new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts. With that in mind, we’ve been looking more closely at the numbers of all the siege weapons and there are definitely some changes that need to be made to bring them in line with their intent. We are going to take a holistic pass at siege weapons in the coming months and drop a rebalance of all of them to get them to more closely align with what they should be doing.

Finally, the feedback you all provide is a very useful part of this whole process. WvW is a living, breathing game type and any changes we make have numerous consequences that don’t become fully visible until everyone starts interacting with them and devising new strategies. Our goal is to provide a complex combat space that rewards skill, tactics, and ingenuity and while we haven’t fully achieved that goal yet, I like to think we are getting there.

In the coming months, meanwhile you most of your most noteworthy wvw guilds will be looking for a new game to play.

Anet has kittening lost their mind.

Aaron.4807:

DevonCarver.5370:

I’d like to shed some light on our thinking with this AC change as well as tell you all what we are doing right now to balance it.

Firstly, when siege weapons were originally created, they had the intent of being really good at some things and not so good at others. The arrow cart is intended to be the anti-personal siege weapon. It is intended that arrow carts are all about controlling an area through damage. If you remain in the area that is being hit by the arrow cart, you will die. You can however, move out of the space and/or find a new way to attack the intended target. That being said, they are not intended to be so good against other siege weapons and we are in the process of addressing that right now. We are also addressing their range when upgraded to be more in line with the range of ballistas.

Secondly, this change is going to require new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts. With that in mind, we’ve been looking more closely at the numbers of all the siege weapons and there are definitely some changes that need to be made to bring them in line with their intent. We are going to take a holistic pass at siege weapons in the coming months and drop a rebalance of all of them to get them to more closely align with what they should be doing.

Finally, the feedback you all provide is a very useful part of this whole process. WvW is a living, breathing game type and any changes we make have numerous consequences that don’t become fully visible until everyone starts interacting with them and devising new strategies. Our goal is to provide a complex combat space that rewards skill, tactics, and ingenuity and while we haven’t fully achieved that goal yet, I like to think we are getting there.

In the coming months, meanwhile you most of your most noteworthy wvw guilds will be looking for a new game to play.

Anet has kittening lost their mind.

There aren’t a lot of games that came bring what WvW brings to the table for pvp oriented guilds. Even if they continue to break it by doing other stupid stuff like turning arrowcarts into godcarts.

timidobserver.7925:

Aaron.4807:

DevonCarver.5370:

I’d like to shed some light on our thinking with this AC change as well as tell you all what we are doing right now to balance it.

Firstly, when siege weapons were originally created, they had the intent of being really good at some things and not so good at others. The arrow cart is intended to be the anti-personal siege weapon. It is intended that arrow carts are all about controlling an area through damage. If you remain in the area that is being hit by the arrow cart, you will die. You can however, move out of the space and/or find a new way to attack the intended target. That being said, they are not intended to be so good against other siege weapons and we are in the process of addressing that right now. We are also addressing their range when upgraded to be more in line with the range of ballistas.

Secondly, this change is going to require new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts. With that in mind, we’ve been looking more closely at the numbers of all the siege weapons and there are definitely some changes that need to be made to bring them in line with their intent. We are going to take a holistic pass at siege weapons in the coming months and drop a rebalance of all of them to get them to more closely align with what they should be doing.

Finally, the feedback you all provide is a very useful part of this whole process. WvW is a living, breathing game type and any changes we make have numerous consequences that don’t become fully visible until everyone starts interacting with them and devising new strategies. Our goal is to provide a complex combat space that rewards skill, tactics, and ingenuity and while we haven’t fully achieved that goal yet, I like to think we are getting there.

In the coming months, meanwhile you most of your most noteworthy wvw guilds will be looking for a new game to play.

Anet has kittening lost their mind.

There aren’t a lot of games that came bring what WvW brings to the table for pvp oriented guilds. Even if they continue to break it by doing other stupid stuff like turning arrowcarts into godcarts.

People quit if they’re not having fun.

At this point of the game I rly don’t know why ppl expect that anet do something right in wvw, every patch they destroy wvw even more so I rly don’t get this qq. It has been like this since day 1.

The thing is it does not matter whether a significant portion of the players like the new AC changes or even the new AC changes is good for the game play in the long run. The fact is the new AC changes has irked a significant portion of the existing player base and damaged the playing style of some players, this means potential loss of players at no obvious gain to the company and is bad for the health of the game overall. Like someone said, it’s better to have a bad plan with full support than a good plan with only half of the people support you.

So unless ANET is sure that the new AC changes will attract a large number of new players to replace the lost customers, the developers better do something quickly to either revert or modify the AC changes before people start leaving.

Cameirus.8407:

The most disturbing thing about all this, is that WvWvW ranks are adding tangible power to characters. increased range, increased dmg (and not a trivial amount), conditions, and so on.

Its totally against the level playing field idea that we were sold on. I’m not sure I like the way this is heading, what next? teired gear grinds beign added in?

Its also totally against the idea of making sure there’s no barrier for entry to new players.

A demonstration of how this thread is nothing but a vocal minority:

(note the votes)

Even most active guilds started to slack due to ACs.

@Paxus.

Do you really belive what you wrote. It is the people who run smaller guilds who should be the most worried about this, your days of ninja are gone. Consider that alot of the larger more established guilds have put an awful lot of effort into figuring out what builds to run, the armors, the foods, the synergy and do so after every single update. Kindness to these people is often forgotten as alot of the so called scrubs rush to the internet to find these builds.

However, your post has some hope, you say you dont like using siege, neither do we. Each and every time an update has arrived people have studied it to see how exactly it will effect the playstyle we have, we therfore adapt. All the updates have been a major anticlimax, this arrowcart build totally threw wvw on its head, its not normal to have so many major wvw guilds all agreeing at the same time about something, if you havent seen that something is amiss with this update then you need to look again closely.

Devon and the others have allready said that they are looking into this, we are still waiting to see what happens next.

Mif.3471:

A demonstration of how this thread is nothing but a vocal minority:

(note the votes)

Words cant even…

timidobserver.7925:

Aaron.4807:

DevonCarver.5370:

I’d like to shed some light on our thinking with this AC change as well as tell you all what we are doing right now to balance it.

Firstly, when siege weapons were originally created, they had the intent of being really good at some things and not so good at others. The arrow cart is intended to be the anti-personal siege weapon. It is intended that arrow carts are all about controlling an area through damage. If you remain in the area that is being hit by the arrow cart, you will die. You can however, move out of the space and/or find a new way to attack the intended target. That being said, they are not intended to be so good against other siege weapons and we are in the process of addressing that right now. We are also addressing their range when upgraded to be more in line with the range of ballistas.

Secondly, this change is going to require new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts. With that in mind, we’ve been looking more closely at the numbers of all the siege weapons and there are definitely some changes that need to be made to bring them in line with their intent. We are going to take a holistic pass at siege weapons in the coming months and drop a rebalance of all of them to get them to more closely align with what they should be doing.

Finally, the feedback you all provide is a very useful part of this whole process. WvW is a living, breathing game type and any changes we make have numerous consequences that don’t become fully visible until everyone starts interacting with them and devising new strategies. Our goal is to provide a complex combat space that rewards skill, tactics, and ingenuity and while we haven’t fully achieved that goal yet, I like to think we are getting there.

In the coming months, meanwhile you most of your most noteworthy wvw guilds will be looking for a new game to play.

Anet has kittening lost their mind.

There aren’t a lot of games that came bring what WvW brings to the table for pvp oriented guilds. Even if they continue to break it by doing other stupid stuff like turning arrowcarts into godcarts.

That is about to change. Elder Scrolls Online is launching sometime this year, and is on the radar of most PvP guilds, big and small. By all accounts, WvW is its major endgame.

Before culling was fixed, our guild was talking about ESO a lot. But with no culling, we were back to having good times in GW2. The arrow cart buff is pushing us back into the “no-fun” zone and we are following the ESO news again.

ESO is still an unknown quantity, but it does have the potential to be a serious challenger.

(And there is also Planetside 2 out there, which is a 3 faction MMOFPS. Its audience does overlap with some GW2 PvP guilds).

The only issue I have with ACs are the range. Honestly, I have a harder time with ranger and mesmer aoe than ACs when attacking or defending keeps and towers. (Well that and all the zerkers running around in WvW, but that’s another story…)

Mif.3471:

A demonstration of how this thread is nothing but a vocal minority:

(note the votes)

Incidentally, the way you quoted reddit is the very reason a lot of people hate reddit!

Thrumdi.9216:

That is about to change. Elder Scrolls Online is launching sometime this year, and is on the radar of most PvP guilds, big and small. By all accounts, WvW is its major endgame.

Archeage also promises large scale warfare, Wildstar looks as if it might have good GvG options. Far off in the future is Camelot Unchained (yay it got funded).

Thrumdi.9216:

timidobserver.7925:

Aaron.4807:

DevonCarver.5370:

I’d like to shed some light on our thinking with this AC change as well as tell you all what we are doing right now to balance it.

Firstly, when siege weapons were originally creatped, they had the intent of being really good at some things and not so good at others. The arrow cart is intended to be the anti-personal siege weapon. It is intended that arrow carts are all about controlling an area through damage. If you remain in the area that is being hit by the arrow cart, you will die. You can however, move out of the space and/or find a new way to attack the intended target. That being said, they are not intended to be so good against other siege weapons and we are in the process of addressing that right now. We are also addressing their range when upgraded to be more in line with the range of ballistas.

Secondly, this change is going to require new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts. With that in mind, we’ve been looking more closely at the numbers of all the siege weapons and there are definitely some changes that need to be made to bring them in line with their intent. We are going to take a holistic pass at siege weapons in the coming months and drop a rebalance of all of them to get them to more closely align with what they should be doing.

Finally, the feedback you all provide is a very useful part of this whole process. WvW is a living, breathing game type and any changes we make have numerous consequences that don’t become fully visible until everyone starts interacting with them and devising new strategies. Our goal is to provide a complex combat space that rewards skill, tactics, and ingenuity and while we haven’t fully achieved that goal yet, I like to think we are getting there.

In the coming months, meanwhile you most of your most noteworthy wvw guilds will be looking for a new game to play.

Anet has kittening lost their mind.

There aren’t a lot of games that came bring what WvW brings to the table for pvp oriented guilds. Even if they continue to break it by doing other stupid stuff like turning arrowcarts into godcarts.

That is about to change. Elder Scrolls Online is launching sometime this year, and is on the radar of most PvP guilds, big and small. By all accounts, WvW is its major endgame.

Before culling was fixed, our guild was talking about ESO a lot. But with no culling, we were back to having good times in GW2. The arrow cart buff is pushing us back into the “no-fun” zone and we are following the ESO news again.

ESO is still an unknown quantity, but it does have the potential to be a serious challenger.

(And there is also Planetside 2 out there, which is a 3 faction MMOFPS. Its audience does overlap with some GW2 PvP guilds).

Are you seriously considering to even compare ESO to GW2? Oh man!

7 superior AC.

Nuvo.5014:

7 superior AC.

yea so…

Only 7? So slack!

Mif.3471:

A demonstration of how this thread is nothing but a vocal minority:

(note the votes)

awwww, using reddit votes to try to back up a point……its quite cute, in a sad kind of way.

Aaron.4807:

DevonCarver.5370:

I’d like to shed some light on our thinking with this AC change as well as tell you all what we are doing right now to balance it.

Firstly, when siege weapons were originally created, they had the intent of being really good at some things and not so good at others. The arrow cart is intended to be the anti-personal siege weapon. It is intended that arrow carts are all about controlling an area through damage. If you remain in the area that is being hit by the arrow cart, you will die. You can however, move out of the space and/or find a new way to attack the intended target. That being said, they are not intended to be so good against other siege weapons and we are in the process of addressing that right now. We are also addressing their range when upgraded to be more in line with the range of ballistas.

Secondly, this change is going to require new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts. With that in mind, we’ve been looking more closely at the numbers of all the siege weapons and there are definitely some changes that need to be made to bring them in line with their intent. We are going to take a holistic pass at siege weapons in the coming months and drop a rebalance of all of them to get them to more closely align with what they should be doing.

Finally, the feedback you all provide is a very useful part of this whole process. WvW is a living, breathing game type and any changes we make have numerous consequences that don’t become fully visible until everyone starts interacting with them and devising new strategies. Our goal is to provide a complex combat space that rewards skill, tactics, and ingenuity and while we haven’t fully achieved that goal yet, I like to think we are getting there.

In the coming months, meanwhile you most of your most noteworthy wvw guilds will be looking for a new game to play.

Anet has kittening lost their mind.

Agreed, a few months is too long.

Reverse this change, whilst zergign towers in 2mins was not great, at least it was not as boring as AC spam.

Reverse the change this week, and then do your pass over seiges Anet.

Pinko.2076:

markic.4359:

Pinko.2076:

markic.4359:

there is nothing wrong with the patch and AC buff

its sad to see how many people are crying because 100 of them cant mash 1 on reinforced doors and capture it in 2mins anymore

finally you have to use strategy and brain to do something but i guess thats to much for some people

im from Gandara and yesterday we lost Bay from AG (Guilds DAWN and NP or NR hmmm)
anyway they did it briliantly…they got outer gate before we even noticed it….then treb inner walls….we couldnt stop them so we built lot of siege inside lords room and they knew it….so they just portal bombed us and wiped easy

game finally gets more then just 100 people following 1 commander and pressing 1 on the doors

There’s not a game requirement that you must be outmanned to use an arrow cart. Now you’re happy because you can either a) get rolled or b) turtle forever.

If only 1 vs 100 can do that, what do you think is happening in most tiers when it’s relatively even odds like 30 v 30? The death of fights. It’s a war to see who can throw down the cheapest strongest siege in the game, and then stare at each other.

Every fight on reset, the opposing side was choosing to turtle forever. I don’t think that’s a good direction for this game to go.

first of all you cannot turtle forever…you can turtle till you have enough supplies to repair walls/gate

in both even or outmanned fights if you cant breach the gate….go for treb or cata…
and here is the real problem (people are just to lazy or just not wise enough to know places where to build catas and trebs that cant be countered)

if you did that you would pretty much push defenders to come charge you and there you get your fight

its really easy but not enough people and guilds are wise and organized enough

Let’s ignore that I was talking about open field fights where carts are being thrown down at every fight.

You’re saying that people are too lazy to invest 5 hours per keep. Do you really think that the game mode should be exclusive to people that rather interact with objects instead of players? If you were making a game, would you design it such that on the average day, your playbase was just interacting with static objects rather than human players?

I don’t see a lot of longevity for designing a game around stalemating. People ultimately world versus world to fight players.

i dont know what is the problem…why to even fight on open field if you know they have siege….kite them away or portal bomb on them and wipe them….
im sure it doesnt take 5hours but i do like it this way….
all i can tell you i made rank 80+ in a week an a half just by blobing and following commanders mashing 1(with 100 other people) on every door till it fell down
was it fun?not so much…
so this new update cheers me up cuz finally defenders can put some resistance and its not all about captureing all map in 20 minutes while your opponents are outmanned

Nuvo.5014:

7 superior AC.

What no cata at the door? They would destroy rams faster if the rams are badly places. Unless the ppl on the carts are using the zoom out hax the ones on the back end may not hit any thing but a ram. Most of the cats on the wall are hit able and its not too much of a pain to pull the ppl on these carts to the side of the wall with mez pulls.

Keep that in mind when you see a arrow cart in the courtyard hitting you a good bit past the door they are zoom haxing.

Aaron.4807:

DevonCarver.5370:

I’d like to shed some light on our thinking with this AC change as well as tell you all what we are doing right now to balance it.

Firstly, when siege weapons were originally created, they had the intent of being really good at some things and not so good at others. The arrow cart is intended to be the anti-personal siege weapon. It is intended that arrow carts are all about controlling an area through damage. If you remain in the area that is being hit by the arrow cart, you will die. You can however, move out of the space and/or find a new way to attack the intended target. That being said, they are not intended to be so good against other siege weapons and we are in the process of addressing that right now. We are also addressing their range when upgraded to be more in line with the range of ballistas.

Secondly, this change is going to require new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts. With that in mind, we’ve been looking more closely at the numbers of all the siege weapons and there are definitely some changes that need to be made to bring them in line with their intent. We are going to take a holistic pass at siege weapons in the coming months and drop a rebalance of all of them to get them to more closely align with what they should be doing.

Finally, the feedback you all provide is a very useful part of this whole process. WvW is a living, breathing game type and any changes we make have numerous consequences that don’t become fully visible until everyone starts interacting with them and devising new strategies. Our goal is to provide a complex combat space that rewards skill, tactics, and ingenuity and while we haven’t fully achieved that goal yet, I like to think we are getting there.

In the coming months, meanwhile you most of your most noteworthy wvw guilds will be looking for a new game to play.

Anet has kittening lost their mind.

I think its hurting more than they realize. I hope it doesn’t come down to how much Anet cares about wvw, cause we know the answer to that.

sunspots fabl is broken

we should take advantage of the fact that we can’t actually do anything in wvw right now to make anti arrow cart propaganda videos

Lol, the fact I really haven’t done much of any recording is propaganda enough :p

47.5 days put into my account and blah endgame. Very different from what it would have been when I started. And many of the bad things still remain. Swirling winds making siege invulnerable. Mesmer focus skill #4 aoe pull. Everybody should roll a GS/scepter + focus Mesmer. 1 year 9 months to equip all my characters in full ascended gear should I wish to pursue it. And now super ultra ultimate omega arrow carts without a decreased arrow cart siege cap. Over zealous forum moderators. Pointless cyclical bag farming. If I want bags I’ll go buy groceries. I probably have 100 bags in my kitchen. Hordes of people who play at 6:00am on a NA server without penalty. And now super ultra ultimate omega arrow carts. There should be handheld super ultra ultimate omega arrow carts so people can take there mowing down everything within half a mile fun everywhere they go. They already can at the cost of a dirt cheap blue print and 30 supply! The game developers need to get off the booze and start making sense or start working on a better mmo.

They should revert open-field AC’s back to their original stats and people can spec into AC mastery as it is now.

They should give a “Fortification” buff to AC’s built on walls/roofs of fortifications giving them slightly (less than it is now) increased range and damage (added benefit of it being logical). People who have AC mastery only get the better buff if they also happen to be manning an AC in a fortification (not cumulative).

And negligible damage from AC’s to other siege.

AC is still buffed with its trait line.
AC for defense is buffed in particular, as per ANets wants.

thiagoperne.7340:

Thrumdi.9216:

timidobserver.7925:

Aaron.4807:

DevonCarver.5370:

I’d like to shed some light on our thinking with this AC change as well as tell you all what we are doing right now to balance it.

Firstly, when siege weapons were originally creatped, they had the intent of being really good at some things and not so good at others. The arrow cart is intended to be the anti-personal siege weapon. It is intended that arrow carts are all about controlling an area through damage. If you remain in the area that is being hit by the arrow cart, you will die. You can however, move out of the space and/or find a new way to attack the intended target. That being said, they are not intended to be so good against other siege weapons and we are in the process of addressing that right now. We are also addressing their range when upgraded to be more in line with the range of ballistas.

Secondly, this change is going to require new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts. With that in mind, we’ve been looking more closely at the numbers of all the siege weapons and there are definitely some changes that need to be made to bring them in line with their intent. We are going to take a holistic pass at siege weapons in the coming months and drop a rebalance of all of them to get them to more closely align with what they should be doing.

Finally, the feedback you all provide is a very useful part of this whole process. WvW is a living, breathing game type and any changes we make have numerous consequences that don’t become fully visible until everyone starts interacting with them and devising new strategies. Our goal is to provide a complex combat space that rewards skill, tactics, and ingenuity and while we haven’t fully achieved that goal yet, I like to think we are getting there.

In the coming months, meanwhile you most of your most noteworthy wvw guilds will be looking for a new game to play.

Anet has kittening lost their mind.

There aren’t a lot of games that came bring what WvW brings to the table for pvp oriented guilds. Even if they continue to break it by doing other stupid stuff like turning arrowcarts into godcarts.

That is about to change. Elder Scrolls Online is launching sometime this year, and is on the radar of most PvP guilds, big and small. By all accounts, WvW is its major endgame.

Before culling was fixed, our guild was talking about ESO a lot. But with no culling, we were back to having good times in GW2. The arrow cart buff is pushing us back into the “no-fun” zone and we are following the ESO news again.

ESO is still an unknown quantity, but it does have the potential to be a serious challenger.

(And there is also Planetside 2 out there, which is a 3 faction MMOFPS. Its audience does overlap with some GW2 PvP guilds).

Are you seriously considering to even compare ESO to GW2? Oh man!

I think GW2 will be far better than ESO in most aspects (except perhaps the storyline).

However, the WvW is such a major focus of ESO that it could turn out to have more to offer in terms of gameplay. They will, for example, have unique WvW character advancement at launch, and the map is by all accounts huge and well-designed. And in the end gameplay is the major decider for PvP guilds and players.

GW2 has probably 6 months to polish WvW and get it right. The improvements Anet have made since launch in balance and removing culling have been really great, in my opinion. I just hope they devote the resources it needs going forward.

Thrumdi.9216:

thiagoperne.7340:

Thrumdi.9216:

timidobserver.7925:

Aaron.4807:

DevonCarver.5370:

I’d like to shed some light on our thinking with this AC change as well as tell you all what we are doing right now to balance it.

Firstly, when siege weapons were originally creatped, they had the intent of being really good at some things and not so good at others. The arrow cart is intended to be the anti-personal siege weapon. It is intended that arrow carts are all about controlling an area through damage. If you remain in the area that is being hit by the arrow cart, you will die. You can however, move out of the space and/or find a new way to attack the intended target. That being said, they are not intended to be so good against other siege weapons and we are in the process of addressing that right now. We are also addressing their range when upgraded to be more in line with the range of ballistas.

Secondly, this change is going to require new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts. With that in mind, we’ve been looking more closely at the numbers of all the siege weapons and there are definitely some changes that need to be made to bring them in line with their intent. We are going to take a holistic pass at siege weapons in the coming months and drop a rebalance of all of them to get them to more closely align with what they should be doing.

Finally, the feedback you all provide is a very useful part of this whole process. WvW is a living, breathing game type and any changes we make have numerous consequences that don’t become fully visible until everyone starts interacting with them and devising new strategies. Our goal is to provide a complex combat space that rewards skill, tactics, and ingenuity and while we haven’t fully achieved that goal yet, I like to think we are getting there.

In the coming months, meanwhile you most of your most noteworthy wvw guilds will be looking for a new game to play.

Anet has kittening lost their mind.

There aren’t a lot of games that came bring what WvW brings to the table for pvp oriented guilds. Even if they continue to break it by doing other stupid stuff like turning arrowcarts into godcarts.

That is about to change. Elder Scrolls Online is launching sometime this year, and is on the radar of most PvP guilds, big and small. By all accounts, WvW is its major endgame.

Before culling was fixed, our guild was talking about ESO a lot. But with no culling, we were back to having good times in GW2. The arrow cart buff is pushing us back into the “no-fun” zone and we are following the ESO news again.

ESO is still an unknown quantity, but it does have the potential to be a serious challenger.

(And there is also Planetside 2 out there, which is a 3 faction MMOFPS. Its audience does overlap with some GW2 PvP guilds).

Are you seriously considering to even compare ESO to GW2? Oh man!

I think GW2 will be far better than ESO in most aspects (except perhaps the storyline).

However, the WvW is such a major focus of ESO that it could turn out to have more to offer in terms of gameplay. They will, for example, have unique WvW character advancement at launch, and the map is by all accounts huge and well-designed. And in the end gameplay is the major decider for PvP guilds and players.

GW2 has probably 6 months to polish WvW and get it right. The improvements Anet have made since launch in balance and removing culling have been really great, in my opinion. I just hope they devote the resources it needs going forward.

A lot of ppl see ESO dead before its out so crazy how ppl view shift i think its Neverwinter atm that ppl are talking about i guess wildstart will be next.

I think the AC may of been an overreaction to ppl hate for zergs. As is AC are an amassing tool to counter a zerg so you must stop thinking with a havie mind to play vs them (even after they are fixed more then like zergs are still going to get hit hard but AC). This seems to be a priority. I am guessing the next thing will be looking into start times then we will see skill lag (i think this one will be a much longer to fix thing).

Paxus.6543:

Snip cause my post is too long with yours.

The game does not need to implement something to challenge the current guilds (and mind you this isnt challenge, this is forcefully diminishing the skill gap between good and bad). The players should do this themselves. I know VoTF as a guild seeks to improve its play substantially and we work a lot on our players and group synergy to allow us to do what we need. On the flip side, someone else should not be as effective because they man an arrow cart, that is artificial skill by dumbing down the game. If players or guilds want to compete with those better than them, they should seek to get better, not ask for a crutch.

I did not imply that pugs or such players do not have any knowledge of wvw, perhaps I may have stated that but that was me trolling more than being serious. What is however serious is that a player involved in a guild or showing more success will be better informed. What is even more true is a player such as myself, who is a commander, will know a significant amount more than the average player on the map. I have commanded both my guild as well as pugs on ts, and even led pugs on ts against other good guilds in open field combat and due to my time and effort invested as well as success proven I am better informed to make a judgement. It really is simple, if I need financial advice, I go to a financial advisor, I dont ask the bank teller, because even though both have an opinion one is better informed. The problem is that online games and especially forum accounts do not allow one to represent themselves adequately. It is however possible for me to evaluate the merit of players based almost exclusively on what they post, whether you agree with me on that does not matter to me.

Now, perhaps the AC change does not break the game. But it is a step in the wrong direction and reflects negatively upon Arenanet. That such a drastic change can be taken without prior testing or player feedback/consultation is extremely worrying, and I question what may happen in the future if this level of incompetence is demonstrated at present.

Finally remember that future game launches may not give us better games than GW2, but it only takes a player to be distracted from GW2 for a month to lose their addiction/desire or whatever magical attraction kept them to the game. All it takes is to show players something else and their interest in GW2 will die. So in the interest of this games survival, it is in Arenanet’s best interest to keep the players here right now satisfied and prevent us from looking at other games. Perhaps some players are happy about the AC change, but they werent going to quit the game if ACs did not get buffed. However this AC buff will cause entire guilds to quit the game, so from one side they had nothing to lose and the other they have quite a lot to lose. Remember that these guilds that people point at for having egos, are the guilds that drive wvw to be a competitive atmosphere.

And as far as an AoE cap goes. I dont mind removing the AoE cap. If you think that us guilds stacking up is what makes us good then you are mistaken. Stacking is simply a means to an end because buff and heal priority in this game is broken so guilds need to be near each other to impact each other with group synergy. But if you remove the AoE cap, I expect nothing less than for the guilds dominating now to dominate further. I have seen what bomb squads can do in warhammer, and those very same players are here playing GW2 stacking on each other. Give them the option to have unlimited AoE, and these current top guilds will be able to wipe entire maps of players, I dont think that is something we want in the game, even though I would love to have such OPness given to me.

P.S. I extend an offer to any developer working on wvw willing to do so, to come run with our guild one night on EU, to see the game and how we play it from our perspective. I genuinely believe that devon’s approach of wvw is so disconnected from how WvW is played because at best all I see is developer’s running in pug zergs than I remember steam rolling back when I played against SoR on NA. When the developers balance Spvp, they ask the good players and play with the good players. When I played GW1 the devs there did the same and I have played with Isiah before and discussed the game based on what he saw playing with us. But the current dev approach to wvw is so casual and there is no hands on experience of how wvw should be played aside from some ideology that they have in their heads which is flawed.

If stacking is a problem it is not terribly difficult to fix. Aoe does full damage to 5 targets and 1/5 damage to 6-50 targets. Or aoe does 4/5 damage to 1-5 targets and 1/5 damage to 1-50 targets. Not a leap of genius. An arc of people spread out around the blob should beat the blob even though the blob can better focus fire. If those aren’t the numbers that beat the blob I’m sure they can be calculated.

I just can’t wrap my head around the fact that they want ACs to be strong against zergs to what? Break them apart? Well wtf do you think these smaller groups can accomplish. kitten backwards change, that accomplished nothing other than putting another nail in this pos’s coffin.

I wouldn’t mind arrowcarts if they actually limited them to only be used w/ los. Zoom hacks and window resizing abuse just make it insane.

Thrumdi.9216:

thiagoperne.7340:

Thrumdi.9216:

timidobserver.7925:

Aaron.4807:

DevonCarver.5370:

I’d like to shed some light on our thinking with this AC change as well as tell you all what we are doing right now to balance it.

Firstly, when siege weapons were originally creatped, they had the intent of being really good at some things and not so good at others. The arrow cart is intended to be the anti-personal siege weapon. It is intended that arrow carts are all about controlling an area through damage. If you remain in the area that is being hit by the arrow cart, you will die. You can however, move out of the space and/or find a new way to attack the intended target. That being said, they are not intended to be so good against other siege weapons and we are in the process of addressing that right now. We are also addressing their range when upgraded to be more in line with the range of ballistas.

Secondly, this change is going to require new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts. With that in mind, we’ve been looking more closely at the numbers of all the siege weapons and there are definitely some changes that need to be made to bring them in line with their intent. We are going to take a holistic pass at siege weapons in the coming months and drop a rebalance of all of them to get them to more closely align with what they should be doing.

Finally, the feedback you all provide is a very useful part of this whole process. WvW is a living, breathing game type and any changes we make have numerous consequences that don’t become fully visible until everyone starts interacting with them and devising new strategies. Our goal is to provide a complex combat space that rewards skill, tactics, and ingenuity and while we haven’t fully achieved that goal yet, I like to think we are getting there.

In the coming months, meanwhile you most of your most noteworthy wvw guilds will be looking for a new game to play.

Anet has kittening lost their mind.

There aren’t a lot of games that came bring what WvW brings to the table for pvp oriented guilds. Even if they continue to break it by doing other stupid stuff like turning arrowcarts into godcarts.

That is about to change. Elder Scrolls Online is launching sometime this year, and is on the radar of most PvP guilds, big and small. By all accounts, WvW is its major endgame.

Before culling was fixed, our guild was talking about ESO a lot. But with no culling, we were back to having good times in GW2. The arrow cart buff is pushing us back into the “no-fun” zone and we are following the ESO news again.

ESO is still an unknown quantity, but it does have the potential to be a serious challenger.

(And there is also Planetside 2 out there, which is a 3 faction MMOFPS. Its audience does overlap with some GW2 PvP guilds).

Are you seriously considering to even compare ESO to GW2? Oh man!

I think GW2 will be far better than ESO in most aspects (except perhaps the storyline).

However, the WvW is such a major focus of ESO that it could turn out to have more to offer in terms of gameplay. They will, for example, have unique WvW character advancement at launch, and the map is by all accounts huge and well-designed. And in the end gameplay is the major decider for PvP guilds and players.

GW2 has probably 6 months to polish WvW and get it right. The improvements Anet have made since launch in balance and removing culling have been really great, in my opinion. I just hope they devote the resources it needs going forward.

gee, i hope ESO doesnt have anything like…seige or something….

oh wait…

The AC buff is as bad as culling. It honestly is that bad on its impact on the game.

Since they were introduced last week, gameplay has gone in the kittenter.

It is so difficult to do ninja sieges and small group work now, that it is once again favouring the zerg disproportionately. However, even the zerg guilds hate the AC buff because it takes their strategy out of playing their characters, and puts it into the hands of siege.

It is a truly miraculous patch that manages to kitten off two of the three groups that play PvP games. (The other beings soloers/duelists).

Well, this just bloody well seems to be encouraging zerging, in my limited opinion. Our small/medium roaming guilds are just having a pain trying to get people to engage in open field fights, and even more so when we’re trying to quickly take some paper tower.

It’s just been outright frustrating tonight, with swarms of rednames hiding on the walls, safely protected by their arrowcarts, only sneaking out in massive blobs. Yes, sieging castles and whatnot historically tended to be a pain. They also tended to be dull, boring, and drawn out. Good job on achieving that, I suppose.

I noticed a big decrease in WvW players. Now only in prime you can get decent kills. It is a bit empty now outside of it.

And @Jackie you are 100% right and this is the reason I am mad about the ACs.

Jackie.1829:

Paxus.6543:

Snip cause my post is too long with yours.

P.S. I extend an offer to any developer working on wvw willing to do so, to come run with our guild one night on EU, to see the game and how we play it from our perspective. I genuinely believe that devon’s approach of wvw is so disconnected from how WvW is played because at best all I see is developer’s running in pug zergs than I remember steam rolling back when I played against SoR on NA. When the developers balance Spvp, they ask the good players and play with the good players. When I played GW1 the devs there did the same and I have played with Isiah before and discussed the game based on what he saw playing with us. But the current dev approach to wvw is so casual and there is no hands on experience of how wvw should be played aside from some ideology that they have in their heads which is flawed.

WHS ^^

We’ll gladly run with a developer too, stop running with PuG zergs developers and run with organised guilds. You know the title of your game is guild wars right?!

There’s so little focus on ‘Guilds’ at the moment you seriously need to start putting some of that in and pay attention to us, the players, who have started and run successful guilds.

Jackie.1829:

P.S. I extend an offer to any developer working on wvw willing to do so, to come run with our guild one night on EU, to see the game and how we play it from our perspective. I genuinely believe that devon’s approach of wvw is so disconnected from how WvW is played because at best all I see is developer’s running in pug zergs than I remember steam rolling back when I played against SoR on NA. When the developers balance Spvp, they ask the good players and play with the good players. When I played GW1 the devs there did the same and I have played with Isiah before and discussed the game based on what he saw playing with us. But the current dev approach to wvw is so casual and there is no hands on experience of how wvw should be played aside from some ideology that they have in their heads which is flawed.

Really nice post.

VcY also will offer the same, If any Dev wishes too, They are welcome to join our Teamspeak and run with us for a night.

I hope that either of these welcomes are taken up.

Soooooooooo….Arrowcartmageddon hasn’t happened, at least on the Sanctum of Rall, Blackgate, or Jade Quarry servers (though I can imagine some tiers in which server populations are unfairly skewed having problems). I remember like it was just yesterday; people saying that after reset, Hill and Garrison would become unassailable strongholds of DOOOOM because there would be dozens of Death Stars- I mean arrow carts -clogging every possible chokepoint like plaque in Rush Limbaugh’s arteries.

Lo and behold, those very structures, and all the others of course, have been captured and lost numerous times since reset…on all three borderlands. The fights to take them were bloody, ferocious, kittening glorious.

It’s been everything except impossible or boring.

Now once ArenaNet finally realize that ACs shouldn’t damage other siege equipment at all, we’ll be in business.