Guild Wars 2

Virtute.8251:

How do you claim that this breaks a game that you don’t know how to play?

Sorry master, I knew you are better than most of us, so teach me how to play WvW, thing I’ve been doing since before launch.

If you were in EU and played against some cheating servers, you’d know how this would further break the competition.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Hey guys, I wanted to pop in and make a few points about the siege disabler.

• This is a thrown projectile, and as such, can be countered by abilities that block or reflect projectiles (Shield of Absorption, Swirling Winds, etc)
• It has a ~5silver, 10 supply and 15 badge cost. This cost coupled with the above point, will likely limit the amount that these items are used to important tactical plays.
• Siege is not permanently disabled, the disabler is just meant to open up a window of opportunity. Players may choose to spread their siege out more to be less vulnerable to this tactic.
• As you are probably aware, we are adding Golem Mastery in the same update. This provides a new, viable option for countering a golem rush.
• The traps we’ve added in the past, have seen low use. So we intentionally created this trick to be a bit on the stronger side. However, it’s still hard to say exactly how it will play out in the live game, but if it ends up hurting gameplay more than helping it we are open to adjusting it in the future.

The traps in the past have seen low use because they are too restrictive. They cost too much supply, you can only put down 1, and their utility isn’t really that great. Allow people to put down more traps(5-10), decrease their radius. and reduce their costs. Add in more traps like ensaring vine, napalm, explosive, torment, chain lightning(tesla) or even one that triggers a meteor storm. Make them something that zergs want to avoid.

Allowing a single person to shut down multiple siege is just bad design. You’re once again trying to bandaid an issue instead of fix it. You found people bunch up siege weapons? Well it’s not like keeps are that big or there is usually more than 1 door to attack; Of course things will be bunched up. Don’t like multiple rams on a door? Then either reduce their damage or create a radius around them where more siege can’t be built. Let’s also not forget the essentially useless siege weapons like cannons or oil. They are far too vulnerable for what they do, beef them up and defense will certainly have an easier time. Instead you’ve implemented a trick that allows a single person to defend against a zerg as long as there is supply. You can bet money that any thief and possibly mesmer will be abusing the heck out of this to troll zergs, I know I certainly will should I find the spark to play again.

It might be a good idea if you gave us some more info about what you are hoping to achieve with this and how did you arrive at the capabilities ie. time disabled, size of the aoe.

To this, and to any other question about details : don’t forget that we know of this new tricks (and commander colors) because of gamescon “leaks”.

There will probably be a blog post during the week, like there will be one for each part of the feature pack. Which means, explanation about what they are hopping to achieve, and hopefully more details about how it will work.

Eowin Of Rohan.2619:

It might be a good idea if you gave us some more info about what you are hoping to achieve with this and how did you arrive at the capabilities ie. time disabled, size of the aoe.

To this, and to any other question about details : don’t forget that we know of this new tricks (and commander colors) because of gamescon “leaks”.

There will probably be a blog post during the week, like there will be one for each part of the feature pack. Which means, explanation about what they are hopping to achieve, and hopefully more details about how it will work.

Well the only way that this is going to work is if they rename it ‘Golem Trap’ and it only applies to golems. Otherwise this and the golem trait upgrade is going to destroy wvw by making it a complete waste of time trying to defend objectives… wvw will become eotm and then Anet will create mega-servers for wvw.

I can’t believe how a company can take the greatest feature of their own product and systematically destroy it.

The wvw designers seriously need to talk with and LISTEN to the people who play wvw the most… that is talking to people from SFR, Kodash, Desolation, SoS, TC, JQ, and BG – not just one server, but people from all the top servers… I am positive that they all have their own webforums for the server where they can enter into conversation with us.

SFR = http://www.pevepe.net/gw2

ANET – COME AND TALK TO US

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Hey guys, I wanted to pop in and make a few points about the siege disabler.

• This is a thrown projectile, and as such, can be countered by abilities that block or reflect projectiles (Shield of Absorption, Swirling Winds, etc)
• It has a ~5silver, 10 supply and 15 badge cost. This cost coupled with the above point, will likely limit the amount that these items are used to important tactical plays.
• Siege is not permanently disabled, the disabler is just meant to open up a window of opportunity. Players may choose to spread their siege out more to be less vulnerable to this tactic.
• As you are probably aware, we are adding Golem Mastery in the same update. This provides a new, viable option for countering a golem rush.
• The traps we’ve added in the past, have seen low use. So we intentionally created this trick to be a bit on the stronger side. However, it’s still hard to say exactly how it will play out in the live game, but if it ends up hurting gameplay more than helping it we are open to adjusting it in the future.

So does Anet plan to increase the range of siege so that it can be ‘spread out’ – does it plan to create more places where siege can be positioned?

If this item can be repelled by reflections then how do you plan to deploy it against golem and catapult shields?

Instead of coming up with something that is going to harm defenders more than it is going to harm attackers… why not just scrap the golem trait idea which every single defender in the game is against?

Do you know how difficult it is to defend places as it is? We don’t need more attack options, we need legitimate defense options. It is already an uphill battle trying to get people to build siege, upgrade places, and REFRESH siege.

If your mission is to turn wvw into eotm with megaservers then you are going the right way. If you actually want to improve the game play of the people who play wvw then come and talk to us before introducing any more silly ideas… we have a load of ideas for you if you will listen to us. OR at the very least come and play wvw on a number of different servers 5-8 hours per day, every day of the week… at a variety of different times during the day and then you might have some insight into the game you have created and what needs to change to make it better.

Taking suggestions from these forums is not going to help… too many inexperienced players wanting to make the game easier for them instead of spending time and effort in learning to play… you need to come and talk to the hard core wvw players… and that means coming to the top server websites and teamspeak to talk to us – not just NA servers either… but EU servers too.

Distaste.4801:

You can bet money that any thief and possibly mesmer will be abusing the heck out of this to troll zergs, I know I certainly will should I find the spark to play again.

It’s not abuse. It’s use.

I also like this item, with a grain of salt to a certain degree (as a main played thief).
I like it, because with it my Thief has finally an option to become in WvW what their role should be their – a Saboteur on Battlefield that sneaks in to the enemy and sabotages their Siege Weapons unseen

You want to prevent that? Use Anti-Stealth Traps around your Siege Weapons and defend them with classes, that can reveal Thieves together with AC’s using their poisonous revealing arrows …
But a smart and quick thief can finally be a dangerous Saboteur that is able to buy for his side important time for the defensive blob to arrive in time, before its all too late.
Also as it has been said, they can be reflected, so Wind Eles and Guardians for example have some ways to protect the Siege Weapons also.

Siege Weapons just become through this better balanced and aren’t anymore such a braindead nearly guaranteed open wall/gate as long as you just simply put enough in frotn of what you want to destroy to melt through the gate/wall in under a minute.

ANet has far more to do for the defense part of this game and to destroy finally karma trains by makking gaining karma in WvW only possible, when you successfully defend a place, Thats the only way how you should gain Karma in WvW.
If you want faster Karma, then go play PvE. WvW should be no place for active Karma Farming! Never ever.
WvW needs Defense improvements, so that defending a place becomes worthful.
Its already way too easy for Zergs currently to blaze through the Maps like a locust swarm and take everything in no time, if the Zerg’s just big enough for that, because the Defense Mechanics and Systemsof Wvw aren’t very well thought out and developed to be of any big danger for these huge 50-100 men zergs.

1) Defensive Upgrade Siege Weapons need to become undestructable. So Cannons, Mortars and Oils should not be destroyable, once a Tower/Keep/Castle has been upgraded with them.

2) Defenders should get finally a Home Advantage of increased Weapon Damage and Weapon Range, because its easier to hit foes from a higher position deadly (hitting the head is more likely from a higher position)
GW1 already had this, so why doesn’t GW2 provide a damage/range bonus, if you attack from a higher position???

3) AoE’s should never reach so easily the top of the Walls of Towers/Keeps/Castles and make it basically impossible to defend from there.
If you target a foe, that has a higher position than you, your skill range should get HALVED to make it impossible, that tons of elementalists, rangers, nekros and mesmes can just nuke all the defense way from the walls due to all the AoE damage spam that kills in seconds if you stay there for too long.
Getting pulled down form a wall is one thing if you aren’t cautious if your surrounding, but getting killed on the walls within seconds making it impossible to defend at all is just not right, nor should it be right to get forced as a defender to put siege weapons at the weirdest unreachable locations, just to prevent that they can’t be destroyed from the aoe spam within seconds.

4) Siege Weapons need to receive a serious resistance against player attacks of any sort, that isn’t a melee attack or an enemy siege weapon to make it harder to destroy build up siege weapons.
Also the player that uses the siege weapon shouldn’t receive any damage as long the siege weapon isn’t destroyed. All build up Siege Weapons and Siege Upgrades should automatically get destroyed, when the location gets taken by the enemy sucessfully to prevent, that players stay at using a siege weapon to be permanent invincible, even if the location has been token already by the enemy. Build up sieges explode then when the location gets conquered and a player who is still using them at that moment will get downed.

5) Defensive WvW Traits need to be introduced finally (Camp Defender, Tower Defender, Stronghold Defender, Medic Mastery, Trap Mastery)

6) More Upgrade Options for Camps, Towers and Keeps/Castle please.

7) Add rewards for tasks like Scouting and Tagging (including fitting WvW Traits for that to make those tasks also more interesting to do)

I will keep on making these proposals about Defense Improvements, until finally happens somethign about this lack of wvw design there.

Eowin Of Rohan.2619:

It might be a good idea if you gave us some more info about what you are hoping to achieve with this and how did you arrive at the capabilities ie. time disabled, size of the aoe.

To this, and to any other question about details : don’t forget that we know of this new tricks (and commander colors) because of gamescon “leaks”.

There will probably be a blog post during the week, like there will be one for each part of the feature pack. Which means, explanation about what they are hopping to achieve, and hopefully more details about how it will work.

they won’t tell us anything about their thought processes or the why behind the what because NDA

If the siege disabler is designed as a counter to golem mastery then it should only target golems. Additionally the golems should get a buff “reroute relays” that prevents them from being disabled again after the disabler buff wears off (1 minute buff). Normal siege should remain unaffected by this.

The reasoning is that it should be difficult to take a defended structure but not impossible. For attackers you have to either use golems or to out range the defensive siege (trebuchets). For defenders you have to properly place your defensive siege so it can’t be taken out and place enough of it so that it is an actual threat to attackers. One AC doesn’t cut it but 4 ACs make them change their plan.

Golems rotating shields makes a viable counterplay to the disabler. Other siege doesn’t have this counter play so it shouldn’t be affected.

lioka qiao.8734:

Other siege doesn’t have this counter play so it shouldn’t be affected.

No.

Counter play to a disabled arrow cart is GG you don’t have your arrow cart now do something else.

From the description, it looks like a single defender could permanently disable rams by grabbing supply every 45 seconds and throwing the trap from the safety of behind the gate.

This is going to be so broken.

Regular counterplay to an arrow cart is superior golems, catapults, trebs, picking a different gate, eles with meteor shower. Eventually they have arrow carts all over so you gotta hit something else to draw em out. Strategic and sometimes fun counterplay.

Now because the community at large is (i’ll put it bluntly) too stupid to think of any of that ANET comes out with a new godmode counterplay to defensive siege intended to slow down golem rushes.

They fail to examine how far this weapon can actually go. It will become the only siege weapon ever used because it drains supply from attackers and defenders alike.

This will be a great addition to the current WvW meta if:

Zoom hack is fixed.
Trick requires Line of Sight
De-stealths/causes reveal (5s) on cast.

You must implement the above so that the attackers don’t disable all defensive siege. And defenders are visible for the offense to react before they are disabled.

lioka qiao.8734:

It will become the only siege weapon ever used because it drains supply from attackers and defenders alike.

Good.

Now I want to swap servers to use it against you. >.>

Orpheal.8263:

1) Defensive Upgrade Siege Weapons need to become undestructable. So Cannons, Mortars and Oils should not be destroyable, once a Tower/Keep/Castle has been upgraded with them.

Just….no That would make things worse, not better. I hate losing everything to a large zerg, but I’d want to, you know, actually be able to take things with a group of say 5, even if 1 person is defending. Even more, Stonemist cannons are used by a larger server to troll and kill smaller servers. Think about it, one side is easily able to defend it enough to upgrade it, and then stands outside of it in cannon range, killing people.

As for this Siege Disabler, I’m against it. Rams and golems take doors down way too fast right now, and I assume they are intending this idea to be a counter. However, this isn’t what it will be primarily used for. Disabling defenders siege is what you will see. It will have no effect on a coordinated golem rush because they can just rotate shields. I don’t care how many attackers a group has, they should not be able to take down a gate in less than a minute, because no one knows something is under attack for the first 30 seconds, so even if you head to it the moment you see it contested, the gate will be down and they will be in the lord’s room. This is difficult to balance though because a small force should be able to take a tower or keep that isn’t defended in reasonable time, but a huge force should not be able to take it before anyone even knows it’s under attack.

It is very frustrating to put a lot of effort into defending something, only to see a zerg take down the gate before anyone can make it to the tower. And it is true, if something is not upgraded, everyone just gives up on that and goes to the next tower they might attack instead. WvW needs something done to help fix it, but I do not see this as being a good thing at all. It will encourage and give advantage to a zerg more than it will benefit defenders.

Altie.4571:

This will be a great addition to the current WvW meta if:

Zoom hack is fixed.
Trick requires Line of Sight
De-stealths/causes reveal (5s) on cast.

You must implement the above so that the attackers don’t disable all defensive siege. And defenders are visible for the offense to react before they are disabled.

They stated it does give revealed if in stealth, although not 5s of course. I don’t think supply/stealth traps should reveal (they do), but most definitely tricks should. I am sure it is going to require LoS because it’s a projectile being thrown, but since it’s an aoe when it hits the ground that won’t matter at all.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

• It has a ~5silver, 10 supply and 15 badge cost. This cost coupled with the above point, will likely limit the amount that these items are used to important tactical plays.

lol, you guys are grossly underestimating the vast amount of unspent badges in people’s wallets. Even more so if these are sellable on the TP like everything else.

Who says you need to swap servers Virtue? Just fight against Dragonbrand after the 9th (or whenever this patch hits). After we stare at each other throwing these god forsaken trick grenades at each other for 2 hours we can pvdoor and see who wins.

If you think that scenario won’t happen ask this question: What happens when you give 40 clueless players a device which can quickly drain supply and provides a godly overpowered counter to siege? What happens when you put those 40 guys behind a gate that a zerg is attacking?

Take 40 more clueless players getting attacked by arrow carts. What will happen to your zerg’s supply? (gone that’s what). You have no supply for inner. They have no supply to defend with. It’s all pvdoor. It’s no strategy.

The new meta will be minion master zergs because that would be the only way to quickly flip a tower. I watched a 20 man MM zerg rip through a paper gate like we had 2 sup rams on it.

Geeze. WvW discussion area should be named the “Kitten Corner”

There are too many doom and gloomers. I know WvW can be improved…ANET has received more feedback then they can handle on ways to improve it.

The trouble is…one improvement for one person may be a huge game wrecker for another.

Developers must play a delicate balancing act to make sure changes enhance their over all vision and goals associated with WvW.

lioka qiao.8734:

Who says you need to swap servers Virtue? Just fight against Dragonbrand after the 9th (or whenever this patch hits).

I would have to transfer to do that any time soon.

lioka qiao.8734:

After we stare at each other throwing these god forsaken trick grenades at each other for 2 hours we can pvdoor and see who wins.

If you think that scenario won’t happen ask this question: What happens when you give 40 clueless players a device which can quickly drain supply and provides a godly overpowered counter to siege? What happens when you put those 40 guys behind a gate that a zerg is attacking?

Take 40 more clueless players getting attacked by arrow carts. What will happen to your zerg’s supply? (gone that’s what). You have no supply for inner. They have no supply to defend with. It’s all pvdoor. It’s no strategy.

The new meta will be minion master zergs because that would be the only way to quickly flip a tower. I watched a 20 man MM zerg rip through a paper gate like we had 2 sup rams on it.

This would be hilarious. I hope it plays out that way for some people. Could be inspiring.

I want to know why they included this item. What type of gameplay are they trying to encourage or discourage? They say that this will cause attackers to spread their siege out more, but why would you want them to do that? When I think of problems with WvW, “the siege is too close together” is not one of them.

Right now siege is powerful enough, and scouts effective enough, that if you want to get your PPT up the best way to do it is to try and find undefended objectives. It looks like that’s even more the case now.

It also seems to me that this favors defense much more than offense. There’s no offensive siege that can’t be disabled by a shadow refuge and this new gadget, but there’s plenty of defensive siege, most notably trebs and ACs behind the walls. What’s more, attempting to take a keep especially is usually a race between the attackers and the responders – this gives a big advantage to the responders.

If their goal is to make people use catas and trebs more often, I don’t see that working too well either. Disabling one of those is only gonna be marginally more difficult than disabling a ram, and trivial if you’re a thief, mesmer, or any combination of classes with a smoke field and a blast finisher.

It also adds more waiting. If you throw down rams and they get disabled, are you just gonna leave? You probably don’t want to – so you wait around until you can use your rams again. Waiting for 45 seconds is not fun, especially when it’s likely that when the 45 seconds is up you’ll just get disabled again.

And I hope you like waiting, because your siege is gonna get disabled, folks. A lot. Throwing one of these things is gonna be way easier than stopping someone from throwing them. I know, I know, swirling winds and cata bubbles. I don’t envy the pugmanders trying to get five different focus eles to coordinate, and siege bubble’s duration is 3 seconds on a 20 second cooldown. You’ll need seven people with cat mastery to get to 100% uptime, and 100% uptime is what you’ll need to stop anyone with half a brain and a grain of patience. Realistically, effective defenses against the siege disabler are gonna be rare.

EFWinters.5421:

Great! Why force karma blobs to clear cannons and oil? Obviously this slows down the karma train, and ArenaNet can’t have that happening can it?

I guess ArenaNet is really trying to kill WvW and turn it into a mindless quest for karma. Oh wait, they already did that. This update is just another nail in the coffin.

Actually it’s probably the last one.

I don’t think you have any clue what “siege” is.

I’m not a 24/7 WvWer like some people here, but I just have to add that based on the description (since nobody has obviously seen this in action yet) this trick seems to heavily favor the more populated servers.

Coming from a low tier server like Kaineng that has significantly lower player population than most servers during peak hours and only survives certain matchups by the attrition of dedicated late-night teams/commanders that literally run 12-14 hour overnight sessions, I can see this giving a huge advantage to the larger zerg. Now while the 30-40 man enemy zergs are rampaging through our corner leveling everything in the daytime, our 10 man unit won’t even be able to counter a single tower if only 1-2 players can sit back and chuck nades that disable all of our siege for 45 seconds.

I honestly think this trick should only be enabled when the outnumbered buff is active, because it sounds way too powerful as a defensive tool in the hands of a single defender left behind for a server that already has a significantly larger map presence.

I have a lot of respect for the WvW exclusive players that have toughed it out on my server, but I have a feeling this is gonna be the last straw that drives them to finally transfer or just quit. The marathon overnight sessions of just a handful of players are the ONLY reason we maintain any sort of competitiveness against even the tier 8 servers. This is going to make the already brutal daytime sessions even harder on them.

I know Anet has its employees that log in once a month on Blackgate and Jade Quarry and think that represents the state of the game for all players, but it really doesn’t. I don’t think consideration is ever given to how certain changes might affect the lower end matchups. I do think this trick can have its place to bring a little more balance to matchups while the outnumbered buff is active, but otherwise, I feel it’s way too powerful for the server that already has the larger offensive base.

Yougottawanna.7420:

Right now siege is powerful enough, and scouts effective enough, that if you want to get your PPT up the best way to do it is to try and find undefended objectives. It looks like that’s even more the case now.

They better keep a careful eye on exactly that. Open worldPvP dies the second it becomes more appealing/effective to avoid attacking other players.

The 45-second disable sounds awful. That’s enough time for a 5-10 person group to destroy all of the cannons on a gate before the defenders can fire a single shot. Bring a larger group and you can clear all of the arrow carts, cannons, and pots of oil off of a wall without any fear of reprisal.

signahead.7281:

The 45-second disable sounds awful. That’s enough time for a 5-10 person group to destroy all of the cannons on a gate before the defenders can fire a single shot. Bring a larger group and you can clear all of the arrow carts, cannons, and pots of oil off of a wall without any fear of reprisal.

That’s irrelevant to siege disabler. 5 or more people of the right classes (or with their own arrow cart) have always had little trouble removing cannons and oil. Disabler doesn’t make it easier.

Those sieges are irrelevant against an opponent competent enough to use the disabler. An opponent competent to use disabler is competent to defeat them without disabler.

Well, this sounds emblematic of Anet’s design process. Let’s not actually fix the problems, let’s work around the edges doing as little as we possible can, and hope the the problems somehow magically resolve themselves.

I can see what they were trying to do, I just can’t see this working as intended. It looks ripe for abuse, and will probably just cause more problems not less.
Not to mention it doesn’t even begin to resolve the deep design problems of WvW. So as usual we get a band-aid rather then an actual fix, using a scalpel when they should be using a sledgehammer.

But at this point I am not longer surprised. They don’t want to put any effort in, fine.
I have no intentions of coming back to this scrapheap of a game anytime soon.

Enenion.8127:

[…]

You know what piece of siege has a low-cooldown ability that negates projectiles? Golems.

This is useless for stopping a golem rush when a group of golems can keep their projectile bubbles up 24/7.

We just need more of this:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable

In the same form of this:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Might

Yes, it works on environmental weapons.

Will this mean that only warriors may be able to go past reflects with these grenades? Maybe.
But new utilities must be added to the game eventually. So it should not be forever like that.

Or they could simply make this item unblockable. Or an upgraded version with a mystic forge recipe that is unblockable.

I can get my necro to hit a gate for 700 with Lifeblast. Albeit with a really wonky build that is practically useless in a proper WvW fight. Rams aren’t everything. Just sayin.

Meta-shift incoming! Necros are the new rams!

Virtute.8251:

signahead.7281:

The 45-second disable sounds awful. That’s enough time for a 5-10 person group to destroy all of the cannons on a gate before the defenders can fire a single shot. Bring a larger group and you can clear all of the arrow carts, cannons, and pots of oil off of a wall without any fear of reprisal.

That’s irrelevant to siege disabler. 5 or more people of the right classes (or with their own arrow cart) have always had little trouble removing cannons and oil. Disabler doesn’t make it easier.

Those sieges are irrelevant against an opponent competent enough to use the disabler. An opponent competent to use disabler is competent to defeat them without disabler.

It is entirely relevant. In fact, a 45-second siege disable that can cover the entire width of a wall makes a huge difference.

Right now a few good cannon shots can wipe out all of the rams at a gate. Or they can put a decent-sized dent in a golem rush. You just need a brave (and possibly suicidal) character to step up to the cannon and take them. But with a 45-second disable, they won’t get to fire a shot. For 10 supply, you can make those cannons irrelevant.

You’re right. A well-constructed havoc team can take out a cannon quickly. Especially if they take the time to build siege (although personally, I prefer using a ballista rather than an arrow cart). But the cannoneer still had a chance to fight back. Disable that cannon for 45-seconds and he’s got nothin’. Heck, you can probably destroy that cannon without building any siege. That means you can build more rams and take the gate down even faster.

Siege disablers will also be great tools for clearing the tops of walls in general. Can’t get your elementalists close enough to whittle down those arrow carts with meteor shower? Just toss in a siege disabler. You’ll be able to cuddle up to the wall and destroy the arrow carts before they fires another shot. For 10 supply, you just made the cart irrelevant.

In WvW, I’m mostly an attacker, so I may be missing some interesting ways to defend against these attacks. But when the patch arrives, my options for clearing wall-mounted siege look a lot better than they do right now. In fact, I don’t think we’ll need to fear wall-mounted siege at all, as long as we have a stack of siege disablers.

signahead.7281:

Right now a few good cannon shots can wipe out all of the rams at a gate.

You missed the point.

The point: Players that carry disablers are already smart enough to kill cannons. When you are being attacked by these players right now, they are using AOE to stop you from using the cannons or oil. Disablers are just giving them a different tool to accomplish the same result.

Therefore, choose a different example for your case.

Virtute.8251:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

• It has a ~5silver, 10 supply and 15 badge cost. This cost coupled with the above point, will likely limit the amount that these items are used to important tactical plays.

3,750 badges
12.5 g

I’ll buy a full stack.

Ya no joke. Rams can never be used again. It’s easy enough to defend a place with 2 people if you know where to place ac’s. These are just overkill.

Virtute.8251:

signahead.7281:

Right now a few good cannon shots can wipe out all of the rams at a gate.

You missed the point.

The point: Players that carry disablers are already smart enough to kill cannons. When you are being attacked by these players right now, they are using AOE to stop you from using the cannons or oil. Disablers are just giving them a different tool to accomplish the same result.

Therefore, choose a different example for your case.

Do you mean like my arrow cart example, which you conveniently ignored?

Or do you mean the multiple cannon examples, which you also ignored?

You shrunk everything down to a single straw man, and then chose to argue about that. I’m having trouble taking you seriously.

This trick sure begs the question “What were they thinking?”

On a slightly related note, using traps, tricks, siege, food, whatever else directly from the inventory with absolutely no way of keybinding them is also very.. convenient.

Gell.5907:

On a slightly related note, using traps, tricks, siege, food, whatever else directly from the inventory with absolutely no way of keybinding them is also very.. convenient.

A hotbar, a hotbar! My guild for a hotbar!

darkwindwalker.2479:

Virtute.8251:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

• It has a ~5silver, 10 supply and 15 badge cost. This cost coupled with the above point, will likely limit the amount that these items are used to important tactical plays.

3,750 badges
12.5 g

I’ll buy a full stack.

Ya no joke. Rams can never be used again. It’s easy enough to defend a place with 2 people if you know where to place ac’s. These are just overkill.

lol most servers have several gaps where they have almost no one in their BL’s, its still the several vs few , cap when other servers are afk, but now larger groups will carry more spamable stuff, small group stacking wiht a build spike Batista or ac’s is out of question when facing larger forces with so many spamable trick, game got killed imo once again.

Nymph of Meliai.6739:

So does Anet plan to increase the range of siege so that it can be ‘spread out’ – does it plan to create more places where siege can be positioned?

If this item can be repelled by reflections then how do you plan to deploy it against golem and catapult shields?

Instead of coming up with something that is going to harm defenders more than it is going to harm attackers… why not just scrap the golem trait idea which every single defender in the game is against?

Do you know how difficult it is to defend places as it is? We don’t need more attack options, we need legitimate defense options. It is already an uphill battle trying to get people to build siege, upgrade places, and REFRESH siege.

If your mission is to turn wvw into eotm with megaservers then you are going the right way. If you actually want to improve the game play of the people who play wvw then come and talk to us before introducing any more silly ideas… we have a load of ideas for you if you will listen to us. OR at the very least come and play wvw on a number of different servers 5-8 hours per day, every day of the week… at a variety of different times during the day and then you might have some insight into the game you have created and what needs to change to make it better.

Taking suggestions from these forums is not going to help… too many inexperienced players wanting to make the game easier for them instead of spending time and effort in learning to play… you need to come and talk to the hard core wvw players… and that means coming to the top server websites and teamspeak to talk to us – not just NA servers either… but EU servers too.

I think your interpretations on what will happen with this trick is a bit off base. Sure I see that its hard to get people to actually refresh siege, man it, and que upgrades.

But have you tried to cap a well fortified / sieged T3 garrison lately vs 20-40 defenders even with 50-60 attackers? Some people would say that attacking such a target is a waste of time. Last time we did it, we needed at least 5 pushes over a 1 hour period. And thats without the new tricks.

The reason why fully sieged t3 keeps are hard to cap is not because there is a lack of attack options. Its siege placement in areas which can’t be AoE’d / OG’ed. The new trick won’t change that, you won’t have the ability to shut down well placed ACs. Granted there are certain places which are very hard to reach without an exposed AC, but those are few and far between (and are susceptible to the trick anyways).

Back to why the trick will be more beneficial to defenders – where as the attackers can’t disable all of the defender’s siege (such as door trebs), the defenders CAN disable all of the attacker’s siege (provided that they are stacking siege). Sure, oil is now worthless and wall ACs are pretty bad, and you can potentially be out ranged by sup-trebs now, but then again it doesn’t change that much, especially considering that these tactics without the trick are already being done (AoE on cannons / oil and wall ACs, building sup trebs on higher ground, so that the supply treb cant hit).

VoxShatterfall.5470:

But have you tried to cap a well fortified / sieged T3 garrison lately vs 20-40 defenders even with 50-60 attackers? Some people would say that attacking such a target is a waste of time. Last time we did it, we needed at least 5 pushes over a 1 hour period. And thats without the new tricks.

This sounds like a good thing. A solid hour of fighting with 70-100 people over the most valuable keep on the map? Yes, please! Let’s do it again tomorrow. Heck, let’s do it again right now.

Sure, zerging up and running over a smaller force is fun. But some of my best WvW nights have involved long, multistage fights over a valuable objective. We smash against the walls. We test the objectives. At first we get clobbered. But we slowly whittle down defenses and drain the castle’s supply. If everything goes well, we finally break open the gate and capture the castle. But even if we don’t, it’s a fun night in WvW.

is it just me or are defenders basically complaining “it makes it too easy to attack us” while attackers are complaining “it’s too easy to defend against us”

Personally if it draws out the engagement time for each fight, I see that as a plus. I don’t find it fun to roll over 2 defenders with a 30-man zerg or being rolled over by a 30-man zerg as one defender out of 2-3. It’s a lot more fun when a roughly equal zergs clash.

Nate.8934:

is it just me or are defenders basically complaining “it makes it too easy to attack us” while attackers are complaining “it’s too easy to defend against us”

Personally if it draws out the engagement time for each fight, I see that as a plus. I don’t find it fun to roll over 2 defenders with a 30-man zerg or being rolled over by a 30-man zerg as one defender out of 2-3. It’s a lot more fun when a roughly equal zergs clash.

It’s not going to draw out the engagement time and that’s really the problem. A keep with a few defense tossing disablers, especially stealth disablers, is going to be a big enough deterrent if there is any sort of opposing force on that the attackers go somewhere easier. The end result is going to be a lot more trebbing.

Likewise on defense with lesser numbers if the enemy disables your siege, you’re just going to leave the keep. Even if both sides disable each other defenses the attackers can’t really bring the door down and hold off the defense unless they have a much bigger force. Ultimately this brings back to number > Skill, which is exactly the opposite of what WvW players want. The disablers are just too much power for a single person to have, especially at such a cheap cost.

I think this will be good. Doesn’t sound OP to me. I think we need to see how it plays on live. The devs have said they will change it if it borks the game, but I my fear is a 6 month wait for another feature patch before it gets fixed – but I’m getting ahead of myself, let’s see it in-game first.

VoxShatterfall.5470:

The new trick won’t change that, you won’t have the ability to shut down well placed ACs.

Zoom hack many EU servers use, period.

Many servers I fight against do use cheating devices to win, so I assume they will cheat to take advantage of the new siege disabler item…

I want to see these in action first, the possible scenario’s for siege are wildly different. Trying to disable 3 well placed arrowcarts on a wall with these as an attack would take 3 siege disablers.
These obviously cannot splash far enough to deal with defensive Trebs.

Above all else they seem to counter clumping mass siege and melting a gate or wall with a clump of rams or a clump of cata’s.
The clump of cata’s often made worst with the full Cata mastery as they can protect eachother with the bubble.

Now such a rush tactic, that basicly relies on getting into a tower or keep before the enemy even knows you are there, can be shut down by a single player.
Which would force a more spread out approach.
It would diminish the, imo, unbalanced importance of (superior) rams. Or cata’s hugging a wall. And shift it to rams as a cheap but more counterable option, while cata’s are to be placed more strategically, further away from the walls and more spread out.

The one thing that would get hit hard by this, much to my regret, is the smaller groups of players who attempt to ninja-cap a tower or keep. They often need the low profile of hugging a wall/gate, paired with a fast way to breakthrough. A single siege disabler can completely prevent this now. And thats a shame.

I am personally going to wait and see how this trick pans out before complaining about it. We can theorycraft all we like about how we THINK it will fix/ruin WvW, but until we see it in action and watch the meta evolve around it, we will not really know for sure.

At first, after reading the description I had reservations, like many. But after considering it more, I can see some advatages to it:

1 – It has the potential to make fighting over towers and keeps a longer affair, which I have felt is something we have sorely needed since the capping train meta started. I have always felt towers and keeps can be flipped far too quickly and frequently. This new trick may just be the thing to slow that right down. It will give a small group of players a chance to stop a larger group of attackers from taking the tower before reinforcements arrive.

Most of the time, if there is a large zerg taking a tower, no-one comes to the rescue, because by the time they get there the tower will be taken. Now we have a way to slow that down to give people time to rally. This will also, hopefully, induce more epic zerg vs zerg fights, which in my opinion is a good thing.

2 – Most of the time, attackers clump siege together and defenders spread them out. So it should (theoretically) require more supply from the attackers to shut down all the defending siege than it will for the defenders to shut down attacking siege. This of course will encourage a change in tactics. Attackers will now have to spread their siege out, but this comes with it’s own penalties. With attacker siege spread out, they will have to split up their siege defenders, giving the defending players more chance to destroy them. It could also mean attackers will need more supply to build more siege in different locations.

3 – Both of the above points means that supply has become event more vital in siege warfare, for both attackers and defenders. But I feel more so on the attackers part, and this to me is a good thing. The defenders have a tower, so they should in effect have an initial advantage.

Yes, it does mean defending siege can be shut down, but it would require more disablers to shut down defending siege than it may do to shut down attackers. That at least will change the way battles are fought over towers and keeps, and that could be the change we need to make WvW feel more epic, by drawing out battles for longer and making supply even more important. We just need to see how it plays out first.

I would just like to add, that if Anet can find a way to make defending the supply chain more fun or more vital, that would be another good step in the right direction. WvW currently only really consist of quick fought battles that constantly move around the map. Rendering towers and keeps to respawning point farming locations. They have no real substance in the world and people only really care about the keeps, towers are forgotten about most of the time.

But if towers stood for longer and were harder to fight over, they would stay in the possession of a world for longer and earn them more points, therefore hopefully increasing their lead. It would require more tactical skill and supply use rather than shear numbers, which is all it really takes now. There is no real consequence to losing anything (other than keeps), because you can quickly gain it back again or gain something elsewhere. Which nine times out of ten boils down to which world has the most numbers on a given map.

So I for one think it is good to see Anet trying to find ways to change the game, with things like this new trick, and am willing to be patient enough to see how the meta changes first.

Really Anet? I really love WvW but with these updates i think a lot of players will stop playing WvW… First the commander tags and now the siege disable?

This is not fun anymore. I thought they wanted to improve the game but all they do is make the game even worse.

If Anet could listen to us for one time it would be great, but no they don’t.

Ground-targeting would be fine IF zoom-hacking wasn’t already a problem in WvW. Now you have someone zoom-hack throwing the siege on top of a ledge or past a door and disabling everything.

I’d first suggest making this a thrown projectile, not just a point and click and place. This means zoom-hackers can’t throw it inside keeps through doors.

It’d also be smart to cut the radius down rather than try to buff other siege’s attack range. A ram not connecting with a gate in an animation but doing so for the damage makes little sense and would also only benefit attackers.

A 900 range ground target with a 200 radius effect would be very reasonable. A good cast could shut down a ram or two by defenders and bide some time until reinforcements come, and the close range when used by attackers, even considering zoom-hacking, would place the effect not going beyond the height of a parapet, meaning it could disable siege normally destroyed by attacking with ranged weapons.

If the implementation is similar to this, then it could be quite positive for defenders and warrant new sieging strategies.

Theftwind.8976:

The root of the issue is in the poor design of towers and keeps and rather then fixing the flaws they add more gimmicks. Siege placed on a wall is easily taken out by a large zerg with no threat to them whatsoever. Cannons and oils can be taken out by standing against the wall where you are “obstructed” from above. If you are defending you are forced to stand on the lip of the wall in order to target the enemy but the enemy can aoe you anyplace on that wall. With the proper siege mastery any outer keep wall can be opened up before the swords pop which hurts smaller servers. Now add to all of that the issue with arrow carts and FOV manipulation or with the problems involved with placing ballistas on the walls where they can do some good and you can see the design flaws. It is interesting to note that the elite skill with ballista mastery is practically useless unless you are firing point blank, straight into an enemy zerg. Any elevation advantage and the arrow spread goes into the air.

So now they want to add a siege disabler. Think about the above design flaws and then on where a defender would have to stand to “throw” that disabler. Yep, on the edge of the lip or he will be obstructed but if he stands on the lip he will be yanked into the zerg below. Yet the attacker can easily stand below and toss the disabler up especially if it works in the same way as grenades do now.

Fix design flaws before adding gimmicks or it will just end up making things worse then they are now.

The only flaw here I can agree with is the Ballista and defensive siege. Ballista is practically useless against 50+ man siege wars. Also as he mentioned, the elite is pretty bad/linear. Defensive siege usually gets blown up so fast that they see no use or the user gets 1-2 shots of it then it goes down from the 50+ blob.

@ Lunacy Solacio.6514

I think you haven’t quite understood, what I really suggested there, so I will repeat my clear suggestion for you once and mark the spot I think that you haven’t understood correctly here:

1) Defensive Upgrade Siege Weapons need to become undestructable. So Cannons, Mortars and Oils should not be destroyable, once a Tower/Keep/Castle has been upgraded with them.

The Devil is in the details here.
With my suggestion I want, that those Siege Weapons should not be instantly undestructable, but you could make them undestructable by upgrading your Tower/Keep/Castle.
So this is just a clear suggestion for improving the Location Upgrade Options to add something, with that you can make those Siege Weapons undestructable.

And by this feature requiring to upgrade your location, this upgrade will cost time and supply. Both things, which gives the enemy enough chance to disturb and claim the tower/keep/castle, before the upgrade has been finished and those siege weapons become undestructable.

You must also underatand, not every WvW world is underpopulated and gets ganked by higher populated worlds as it seems to be the case with your server where you play on, but on a normal to very high polulated matchup, those defensive siege weapons get destroyed, as if they would consist out of paper within seconds and this needs to be changed, if the defense part of WvW should become ever worthful.
You can defend yourself only successfully with siege weapons, because only with them you have the range, power and you can hit quickly enough with them many enemies at once, to get quickly rid of large Zergs.
But they are of absolute no help, if just the zerg can come to your defensive siege weapons and smash them down with you including within a blink of an eye, without that you can do ANYTHING about this to stop that. You can’t even kittening repair your damaged siege weapons. They are basically all their, presented like on a silver platter ready to be destroyed by anyone, who’s coming to them, while they are unused.

This is also the reason, why so often you have to look at it how defenseless your towers ect. get simply taken away from you, because you could’t do anything, cause all your defense got destroyed beforehand, unless you have the supply at your place to quickly build up some AC’s at safe spots to scare the zerg with them away before its too late the the masses storm inside and overwhelm you.
Thats the reason, why towers, keeps and the castle need an upgrade for their defensive siege weapons to be undestructable, so that if you made that upgrade succesfully, so that you know, you will always have some defense ready to use there, even if you have no supply ready, so that you places can’t be just overwhelmed total defenseless, but you still have something with that you can effectively hurt the zerg, even if you are alone to buy your world some time so that help could arrive at time before its too late, because therefore are literally the canons very good, as they slow the masses down and remove boons from them and with two of them you can wreck havoc in a zerg very good, especially together with a mortar placing fire fields.

Yes, in a situation where say Stonemist is flipped routinely, that isn’t an issue, but it should never be able to have any defenses completely indestructible. It should be another liability, not an almost impenetrable fortress. As for keeps, I have nothing wrong with that, as long as you can only upgrade your home keep that way.

Or, thinking about it, this: If you have the outnumbered buff, you are able to do damage to even this ‘otherwise indestructible’ siege, and perhaps a little extra damage to siege. That may be the fairest modification to your suggestion and make the outnumbered actually do something.
(I think “outnumbered” needs other things fixed, something to help balance a server that is severely mismatched regardless if I’m on the server that has the superior numbers or dealing with other servers that do while I have say 5. Been in just about every situation and it isn’t enjoyable to be giving or receiving those zergs)

This:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

• The traps we’ve added in the past, have seen low use.

easily correlates with:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

However, it’s still hard to say exactly how it will play out in the live game, but if it ends up hurting gameplay more than helping it we are open to adjusting it in the future.

You just don’t want/can’t properly test things before implementing them. And it is not just about WvW, it’s everywhere else in the game.
Basically you are killing your own game with this lack of testing/quality control. Holy hell…