Remove Ascended from WvWvW
That logic is flawed.
So let’s take 2 of the best spvp players in this game ever, top guilds etc.
They duel each other and the one who loses is now terrible at this game ?! That makes 0 sense, in a duel/1v1 there will always be a victor and a loser, doesn’t mean the loser is terrible just because he was outmatched!
By the way guys, there’s a similar thread in the WvWvW forums if you want to check that out as well.
I’m pretty sure that in a fight between equally skilled opponents, the one that makes a mistake first loses.
I mean, equally skilled opponents mean that one sides wins 50% of the time.
Sure, if they have equal equipment. It’s not that hard to not make mistakes though, especially if it’s one vs one, which means the player with the better equipment will always win.
Bottom line, you’re basing your entire argument off the assumption that the player with ascended gear will make a mistake the other player can exploit, BEFORE the player in the worse gear makes a mistake, or that he will make more mistakes than the player with worse gear. In fact, you’re not actually arguing equal skill at all. In your scenario, the player in the worse gear has better skill. That’s such an unbelievably bad argument to make in defense of gear upgrades.
What is the point again?
That you can’t be troubled to Defend the Pact Interrupter or Defeat the High Priestess of Lyssa, or Destroy the Risen Statue of Dwayna once per day?
Right now, the point is that you should stop trolling.
What a lovely personal anecdote. I have many of those too. I’ve had many times where I’ve won fights with only about 10 HP remaining, sometimes even less. One of my guildies has a Thief who has stomped and escaped that stomp with a big, fat 1 displayed on his health bar. That’s even less than 5% of his total health – while wearing Soldier’s Ascended trinkets. If he had been wearing all exotics – he would have lost. Those are the fights he remembers most, the ones he brags about, and the ones he considers most important.
And if he was wearing all rares, and the other was wearing all exotic, he would have lost, and if he was wearing Masterwork, and the other was wearing Exotic he would have lost. If he was level 60 and other other was level 80 he would have lost.
So I don’t see your point.
The two points are thus.
A. All those other advantages you talk about, those are much easier to eliminate. It’s trivially easy to get to level 80 and get rare gear, and almost trivially easy to get exotic gear. Anyone can do it in a matter of days/weeks. Ascended gear is a whole other league of time investment.
B. Why add one more disparity for players to overcome in a game mode that’s supposed to be about competition? There is literally no reason to have ascended stats in WvW.
What you say is easy for you can be hard for someone else and take much more time than you. Apparently ascended is hard for you to get, but there are people where getting exotic is hard to get. What you think is hard and easy to get is no more important than what another person thinks is hard or easy to get. The time frame to get X gear is a moot point when in WvW it very rarely matters if you have ascended gear or not.
What a lovely personal anecdote. I have many of those too. I’ve had many times where I’ve won fights with only about 10 HP remaining, sometimes even less. One of my guildies has a Thief who has stomped and escaped that stomp with a big, fat 1 displayed on his health bar. That’s even less than 5% of his total health – while wearing Soldier’s Ascended trinkets. If he had been wearing all exotics – he would have lost. Those are the fights he remembers most, the ones he brags about, and the ones he considers most important.
And if he was wearing all rares, and the other was wearing all exotic, he would have lost, and if he was wearing Masterwork, and the other was wearing Exotic he would have lost. If he was level 60 and other other was level 80 he would have lost.
So I don’t see your point.
The two points are thus.
A. All those other advantages you talk about, those are much easier to eliminate. It’s trivially easy to get to level 80 and get rare gear, and almost trivially easy to get exotic gear. Anyone can do it in a matter of days/weeks. Ascended gear is a whole other league of time investment.
B. Why add one more disparity for players to overcome in a game mode that’s supposed to be about competition? There is literally no reason to have ascended stats in WvW.
What you say is easy for you can be hard for someone else and take much more time than you. Apparently ascended is hard for you to get, but there are people where getting exotic is hard to get. What you think is hard and easy to get is no more important than what another person thinks is hard or easy to get. The time frame to get X gear is a moot point when in WvW it very rarely matters if you have ascended gear or not.
EXACTLY. So why make it worse, and put in ascended yet on top of exotic? Personally, I think they should just limit stats in any form of PvP to blue quality, or some specific stat level that all gear in PvP has. Make it about skill, and leave gear out of the equation entirely. That’s how they did it in GW1, and guess what: it worked. That said, the point was that at least the level advantage and rare/exotic gear are somewhat excusable because they don’t require insane amounts of time to accomplish.
That logic is flawed.
So let’s take 2 of the best spvp players in this game ever, top guilds etc.
They duel each other and the one who loses is now terrible at this game ?! That makes 0 sense, in a duel/1v1 there will always be a victor and a loser, doesn’t mean the loser is terrible just because he was outmatched!
By the way guys, there’s a similar thread in the WvWvW forums if you want to check that out as well.
I’m pretty sure that in a fight between equally skilled opponents, the one that makes a mistake first loses.
I mean, equally skilled opponents mean that one sides wins 50% of the time.
Sure, if they have equal equipment. It’s not that hard to not make mistakes though, especially if it’s one vs one, which means the player with the better equipment will always win.
Bottom line, you’re basing your entire argument off the assumption that the player with ascended gear will make a mistake the other player can exploit, BEFORE the player in the worse gear makes a mistake, or that he will make more mistakes than the player with worse gear. In fact, you’re not actually arguing equal skill at all. In your scenario, the player in the worse gear has better skill. That’s such an unbelievably bad argument to make in defense of gear upgrades.
It is also an unbelievably bad argument to say that ascended gear actually makes any difference in WvW given the very nature of WvW. Those scenarios where Gear will win are going to be very very rare, so many other things have to line up for gear to actually being the deciding factor.
That logic is flawed.
So let’s take 2 of the best spvp players in this game ever, top guilds etc.
They duel each other and the one who loses is now terrible at this game ?! That makes 0 sense, in a duel/1v1 there will always be a victor and a loser, doesn’t mean the loser is terrible just because he was outmatched!
By the way guys, there’s a similar thread in the WvWvW forums if you want to check that out as well.
I’m pretty sure that in a fight between equally skilled opponents, the one that makes a mistake first loses.
I mean, equally skilled opponents mean that one sides wins 50% of the time.
Sure, if they have equal equipment. It’s not that hard to not make mistakes though, especially if it’s one vs one, which means the player with the better equipment will always win.
Bottom line, you’re basing your entire argument off the assumption that the player with ascended gear will make a mistake the other player can exploit, BEFORE the player in the worse gear makes a mistake, or that he will make more mistakes than the player with worse gear. In fact, you’re not actually arguing equal skill at all. In your scenario, the player in the worse gear has better skill. That’s such an unbelievably bad argument to make in defense of gear upgrades.
I’m making the argument that the better class/build/player will change the outcome before gear came into play, a concept that no one seems to grasp.
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
That logic is flawed.
So let’s take 2 of the best spvp players in this game ever, top guilds etc.
They duel each other and the one who loses is now terrible at this game ?! That makes 0 sense, in a duel/1v1 there will always be a victor and a loser, doesn’t mean the loser is terrible just because he was outmatched!
By the way guys, there’s a similar thread in the WvWvW forums if you want to check that out as well.
I’m pretty sure that in a fight between equally skilled opponents, the one that makes a mistake first loses.
I mean, equally skilled opponents mean that one sides wins 50% of the time.
Sure, if they have equal equipment. It’s not that hard to not make mistakes though, especially if it’s one vs one, which means the player with the better equipment will always win.
Bottom line, you’re basing your entire argument off the assumption that the player with ascended gear will make a mistake the other player can exploit, BEFORE the player in the worse gear makes a mistake, or that he will make more mistakes than the player with worse gear. In fact, you’re not actually arguing equal skill at all. In your scenario, the player in the worse gear has better skill. That’s such an unbelievably bad argument to make in defense of gear upgrades.
It is also an unbelievably bad argument to say that ascended gear actually makes any difference in WvW given the very nature of WvW. Those scenarios where Gear will win are going to be very very rare, so many other things have to line up for gear to actually being the deciding factor.
So again, how exactly is that a reason to put in ascended gear? If it doesn’t make any difference, why not just leave it out? Why not just cap the stats at some other level, just to make sure it doesn’t make a difference? If they can properly uplevel a 30 to 80, surely they can find a way to downgrade the stats on Ascended gear to Exotic level?
That logic is flawed.
So let’s take 2 of the best spvp players in this game ever, top guilds etc.
They duel each other and the one who loses is now terrible at this game ?! That makes 0 sense, in a duel/1v1 there will always be a victor and a loser, doesn’t mean the loser is terrible just because he was outmatched!
By the way guys, there’s a similar thread in the WvWvW forums if you want to check that out as well.
I’m pretty sure that in a fight between equally skilled opponents, the one that makes a mistake first loses.
I mean, equally skilled opponents mean that one sides wins 50% of the time.
Sure, if they have equal equipment. It’s not that hard to not make mistakes though, especially if it’s one vs one, which means the player with the better equipment will always win.
Bottom line, you’re basing your entire argument off the assumption that the player with ascended gear will make a mistake the other player can exploit, BEFORE the player in the worse gear makes a mistake, or that he will make more mistakes than the player with worse gear. In fact, you’re not actually arguing equal skill at all. In your scenario, the player in the worse gear has better skill. That’s such an unbelievably bad argument to make in defense of gear upgrades.
I’m making the argument that the better class/build/player will change the outcome before gear came into play, a concept that no one seems to grasp.
Ok, so now you’re changing your argument. You’re really desperate, aren’t you? Guess what. That still doesn’t change the opposing argument, which is and always has been:
“So again, how exactly is that a reason to put in ascended gear? If it doesn’t make any difference, why not just leave it out? "
What a lovely personal anecdote. I have many of those too. I’ve had many times where I’ve won fights with only about 10 HP remaining, sometimes even less. One of my guildies has a Thief who has stomped and escaped that stomp with a big, fat 1 displayed on his health bar. That’s even less than 5% of his total health – while wearing Soldier’s Ascended trinkets. If he had been wearing all exotics – he would have lost. Those are the fights he remembers most, the ones he brags about, and the ones he considers most important.
And if he was wearing all rares, and the other was wearing all exotic, he would have lost, and if he was wearing Masterwork, and the other was wearing Exotic he would have lost. If he was level 60 and other other was level 80 he would have lost.
So I don’t see your point.
The two points are thus.
A. All those other advantages you talk about, those are much easier to eliminate. It’s trivially easy to get to level 80 and get rare gear, and almost trivially easy to get exotic gear. Anyone can do it in a matter of days/weeks. Ascended gear is a whole other league of time investment.
B. Why add one more disparity for players to overcome in a game mode that’s supposed to be about competition? There is literally no reason to have ascended stats in WvW.
What you say is easy for you can be hard for someone else and take much more time than you. Apparently ascended is hard for you to get, but there are people where getting exotic is hard to get. What you think is hard and easy to get is no more important than what another person thinks is hard or easy to get. The time frame to get X gear is a moot point when in WvW it very rarely matters if you have ascended gear or not.
EXACTLY. So why make it worse, and put in ascended yet on top of exotic? Personally, I think they should just limit stats in any form of PvP to blue quality, or some specific stat level that all gear in PvP has. Make it about skill, and leave gear out of the equation entirely. That’s how they did it in GW1, and guess what: it worked. That said, the point was that at least the level advantage and rare/exotic gear are somewhat excusable because they don’t require insane amounts of time to accomplish.
The point of WvW is that it is not considered as PvP, it is considered as PvEvP, notice how none of the PvP daily involve WvW. The point of WvWvW is for people who want something resembling open world PvP where people are wearing their PvE gear. If you want competition you play sPvP, WvWvW isn’t really about competition between Player Vs Player, but more about competition with Server Vs Server.
And ascended doesn’t take insane amount of time. A friend of mine who got to level 80 about 6 weeks ago and plays about 15 hours per week, already has all the ascended gear accept for weapons, in which he is looking about 3 more weeks and he’ll have those finished. 2 Months is not insane amount of time
Did you miss some exotic gear for your exotic dummy? Because I get 104% crit damage not 86% crit damage.
edit: In fact you must of missed something since even without food buffs, bloodlust or might, with d/p I get 2239 base power for exotic zerk/zerk orb/ruby dummy not the 2089 you list.
Check your trinkets and rings and such for the extra jewel. The calculation I used were for the base item only. …
Isnt that cheating though? There is no reason why anyone wouldnt use a jewel with their trinkets. That changes things quite a bit. by adding jewels power goes up to 2239.
Ergo going with basic damage no buffs etc…
(981×2239×2.4) / 1836 = 2871 vs 3108 which means increase in damage is actually 8%
going with the max damage, food buffs, critical whatevers
(981x 3306×2.4) / 1836 = 4239
4239 × 257% = 10,894 vs 11909 = 8.6%
none of it is close to the 24% you calculated.
If you have a good reason why you think adding jewerly to the trinkets in exotics is not fair feel free to share but personally I think they should be there considering those stats are build in ascended gear anyway.
I’m guessing what he means is, he did the calculations for both sets of gear without jewels. If you add them in on the exotic, you then also add them in on the ascended, and nothing really changes.
he didnt not in those numbers he quoted at least.
And you cannot add jewels to ascended trinkets you can only add infusions. To make space for infusions Arenanet kinda integrated jewels stats in the trinket itself which is why it isnt fair to compare exotics to ascended without factoring in the jewels.
“So again, how exactly is that a reason to put in ascended gear? If it doesn’t make any difference, why not just leave it out? "
To give people a sense of progression? I dunno, why put in exotic gear after rares? It’s there so already, you might as well use it, that is if you find yourself motivated enough to work for it.
I would like to have ascended gear at some point but i’m not actively working for it and it doesn’t bother me that others have it.
The anti-ascended argument boils down to two camps.
1. Crafting to 500 is too expensive and doing three dynamic events per day is too much of a grind!
2. It imbalances WvW by potentially giving someone have a 5% statistical advantage over… hold on I have to kill this solo upleveled guy with my 5 man VOIP coordinated “havok team.”
What others am I missing?
That logic is flawed.
So let’s take 2 of the best spvp players in this game ever, top guilds etc.
They duel each other and the one who loses is now terrible at this game ?! That makes 0 sense, in a duel/1v1 there will always be a victor and a loser, doesn’t mean the loser is terrible just because he was outmatched!
By the way guys, there’s a similar thread in the WvWvW forums if you want to check that out as well.
I’m pretty sure that in a fight between equally skilled opponents, the one that makes a mistake first loses.
I mean, equally skilled opponents mean that one sides wins 50% of the time.
Sure, if they have equal equipment. It’s not that hard to not make mistakes though, especially if it’s one vs one, which means the player with the better equipment will always win.
Bottom line, you’re basing your entire argument off the assumption that the player with ascended gear will make a mistake the other player can exploit, BEFORE the player in the worse gear makes a mistake, or that he will make more mistakes than the player with worse gear. In fact, you’re not actually arguing equal skill at all. In your scenario, the player in the worse gear has better skill. That’s such an unbelievably bad argument to make in defense of gear upgrades.
I’m making the argument that the better class/build/player will change the outcome before gear came into play, a concept that no one seems to grasp.
I grasp it. And any intelligent person grasps it. The anti-Ascended crowd is just trying to get others up in arms over something that sounds terrible on paper (OMG 6-13% difference in stats!!) but in reality makes little to no difference. It’s the same crowd that keeps referring to the manifesto and how Anet is a bunch of liars.
Class/build/player will always trump 6-13% of stat boost. Unless OP and others who are really trying to beat this dead horse think that WvWvW consists of completely equal 1v1 fights, as in, same exact class, same exact build, same exact skill level……but that would be stupid. Just like their argument….
In the context of WvWvW specifically Ascended gear makes little difference. If you want to completely strip the WvW part out of it and then compare on paper the stats of one person and then the stats of another person and point out that there is an increase and then go on a tirade about it, then sure I guess Ascended armor is OP and OMG if you don’t have Ascended there’s no point to even go into WvW oh woe is me!!!
But intelligent people understand how WvW works and how little this will matter, which is why this debate rages on to this day. Intelligent big-picture thinkers versus unintelligent small-picture thinkers. Neither side will give.
I won’t stop because I can’t stop.
It’s a medical condition, they say its terminal….
It’s a medical condition, they say its terminal….
That logic is flawed.
So let’s take 2 of the best spvp players in this game ever, top guilds etc.
They duel each other and the one who loses is now terrible at this game ?! That makes 0 sense, in a duel/1v1 there will always be a victor and a loser, doesn’t mean the loser is terrible just because he was outmatched!
By the way guys, there’s a similar thread in the WvWvW forums if you want to check that out as well.
I’m pretty sure that in a fight between equally skilled opponents, the one that makes a mistake first loses.
I mean, equally skilled opponents mean that one sides wins 50% of the time.
Sure, if they have equal equipment. It’s not that hard to not make mistakes though, especially if it’s one vs one, which means the player with the better equipment will always win.
Bottom line, you’re basing your entire argument off the assumption that the player with ascended gear will make a mistake the other player can exploit, BEFORE the player in the worse gear makes a mistake, or that he will make more mistakes than the player with worse gear. In fact, you’re not actually arguing equal skill at all. In your scenario, the player in the worse gear has better skill. That’s such an unbelievably bad argument to make in defense of gear upgrades.
It is also an unbelievably bad argument to say that ascended gear actually makes any difference in WvW given the very nature of WvW. Those scenarios where Gear will win are going to be very very rare, so many other things have to line up for gear to actually being the deciding factor.
So again, how exactly is that a reason to put in ascended gear? If it doesn’t make any difference, why not just leave it out? Why not just cap the stats at some other level, just to make sure it doesn’t make a difference? If they can properly uplevel a 30 to 80, surely they can find a way to downgrade the stats on Ascended gear to Exotic level?
Because there is no reason to, and it defeats the purpose of WvWvW, which is open world PvEvP, which is meant to use PvE gear. And to use your suggestion, why stop at exotic, why not scale down to Fine gear? Why? Because WvWvW is meant to use your PvE gear, and you do not nix out a whole tier of gear just because people do not want to earn that gear which doesn’t take all that long and doesn’t stop them from playing or from being useful.
What a lovely personal anecdote. I have many of those too. I’ve had many times where I’ve won fights with only about 10 HP remaining, sometimes even less. One of my guildies has a Thief who has stomped and escaped that stomp with a big, fat 1 displayed on his health bar. That’s even less than 5% of his total health – while wearing Soldier’s Ascended trinkets. If he had been wearing all exotics – he would have lost. Those are the fights he remembers most, the ones he brags about, and the ones he considers most important.
And if he was wearing all rares, and the other was wearing all exotic, he would have lost, and if he was wearing Masterwork, and the other was wearing Exotic he would have lost. If he was level 60 and other other was level 80 he would have lost.
So I don’t see your point.
The two points are thus.
A. All those other advantages you talk about, those are much easier to eliminate. It’s trivially easy to get to level 80 and get rare gear, and almost trivially easy to get exotic gear. Anyone can do it in a matter of days/weeks. Ascended gear is a whole other league of time investment.
B. Why add one more disparity for players to overcome in a game mode that’s supposed to be about competition? There is literally no reason to have ascended stats in WvW.
What you say is easy for you can be hard for someone else and take much more time than you. Apparently ascended is hard for you to get, but there are people where getting exotic is hard to get. What you think is hard and easy to get is no more important than what another person thinks is hard or easy to get. The time frame to get X gear is a moot point when in WvW it very rarely matters if you have ascended gear or not.
EXACTLY. So why make it worse, and put in ascended yet on top of exotic? Personally, I think they should just limit stats in any form of PvP to blue quality, or some specific stat level that all gear in PvP has. Make it about skill, and leave gear out of the equation entirely. That’s how they did it in GW1, and guess what: it worked. That said, the point was that at least the level advantage and rare/exotic gear are somewhat excusable because they don’t require insane amounts of time to accomplish.
The point of WvW is that it is not considered as PvP, it is considered as PvEvP, notice how none of the PvP daily involve WvW. The point of WvWvW is for people who want something resembling open world PvP where people are wearing their PvE gear. If you want competition you play sPvP, WvWvW isn’t really about competition between Player Vs Player, but more about competition with Server Vs Server.
And ascended doesn’t take insane amount of time. A friend of mine who got to level 80 about 6 weeks ago and plays about 15 hours per week, already has all the ascended gear accept for weapons, in which he is looking about 3 more weeks and he’ll have those finished. 2 Months is not insane amount of time
For this game, it absolutely is. This is the successor to Guild Wars. A game where you could get gear with best possible stats for the equivalent of about 5 gold in GW2. A game where gear was supposed to be a non-issue. And you know what they told us about GW2 before release? That it would be exactly the same in that regard: gear would be a non-issue; there would be no gear treadmill and there would be no gear disparity in PvP. Well, guess where we’re at now. Not at all where the game was supposed to be in regards to gear. And people are complaining about it. What a surprise!
Because there is no reason to, and it defeats the purpose of WvWvW, which is open world PvEvP, which is meant to use PvE gear.
No it’s not. GW2 was never supposed to be about gear, other than cosmetically.
And to use your suggestion, why stop at exotic, why not scale down to Fine gear?
Um yeah, I JUST POSTED that. I’d be in favor of GW2 NEVER having gone beyond fine gear stats, anywhere.
Did you miss some exotic gear for your exotic dummy? Because I get 104% crit damage not 86% crit damage.
edit: In fact you must of missed something since even without food buffs, bloodlust or might, with d/p I get 2239 base power for exotic zerk/zerk orb/ruby dummy not the 2089 you list.
Check your trinkets and rings and such for the extra jewel. The calculation I used were for the base item only. …
Isnt that cheating though? There is no reason why anyone wouldnt use a jewel with their trinkets. That changes things quite a bit. by adding jewels power goes up to 2239.
Ergo going with basic damage no buffs etc…
(981×2239×2.4) / 1836 = 2871 vs 3108 which means increase in damage is actually 8%
going with the max damage, food buffs, critical whatevers
(981x 3306×2.4) / 1836 = 4239
4239 × 257% = 10,894 vs 11909 = 8.6%
none of it is close to the 24% you calculated.
If you have a good reason why you think adding jewerly to the trinkets in exotics is not fair feel free to share but personally I think they should be there considering those stats are build in ascended gear anyway.
Even at 8.6% damage it’s still more than a sigil of force on which people are currently willing to spend 2g 36s . If 5% isn’t meaningless neither is 8.6%.
Is your problem the reduction? Would it make a different to ask that scaling automatically scales everyone up level 80 with full ascended gear?
I dont have a problem, if it were up to me I would simple scale everyone to ascended stats so that people who got their ascended gear would not penalized and at the same time everyone can be happy that there is no disadvantage.
I only arguing the difference in stats is small and 8% is small.
What a lovely personal anecdote. I have many of those too. I’ve had many times where I’ve won fights with only about 10 HP remaining, sometimes even less. One of my guildies has a Thief who has stomped and escaped that stomp with a big, fat 1 displayed on his health bar. That’s even less than 5% of his total health – while wearing Soldier’s Ascended trinkets. If he had been wearing all exotics – he would have lost. Those are the fights he remembers most, the ones he brags about, and the ones he considers most important.
And if he was wearing all rares, and the other was wearing all exotic, he would have lost, and if he was wearing Masterwork, and the other was wearing Exotic he would have lost. If he was level 60 and other other was level 80 he would have lost.
So I don’t see your point.
The two points are thus.
A. All those other advantages you talk about, those are much easier to eliminate. It’s trivially easy to get to level 80 and get rare gear, and almost trivially easy to get exotic gear. Anyone can do it in a matter of days/weeks. Ascended gear is a whole other league of time investment.
B. Why add one more disparity for players to overcome in a game mode that’s supposed to be about competition? There is literally no reason to have ascended stats in WvW.
What you say is easy for you can be hard for someone else and take much more time than you. Apparently ascended is hard for you to get, but there are people where getting exotic is hard to get. What you think is hard and easy to get is no more important than what another person thinks is hard or easy to get. The time frame to get X gear is a moot point when in WvW it very rarely matters if you have ascended gear or not.
EXACTLY. So why make it worse, and put in ascended yet on top of exotic? Personally, I think they should just limit stats in any form of PvP to blue quality, or some specific stat level that all gear in PvP has. Make it about skill, and leave gear out of the equation entirely. That’s how they did it in GW1, and guess what: it worked. That said, the point was that at least the level advantage and rare/exotic gear are somewhat excusable because they don’t require insane amounts of time to accomplish.
The point of WvW is that it is not considered as PvP, it is considered as PvEvP, notice how none of the PvP daily involve WvW. The point of WvWvW is for people who want something resembling open world PvP where people are wearing their PvE gear. If you want competition you play sPvP, WvWvW isn’t really about competition between Player Vs Player, but more about competition with Server Vs Server.
And ascended doesn’t take insane amount of time. A friend of mine who got to level 80 about 6 weeks ago and plays about 15 hours per week, already has all the ascended gear accept for weapons, in which he is looking about 3 more weeks and he’ll have those finished. 2 Months is not insane amount of time
For this game, it absolutely is. This is the successor to Guild Wars. A game where you could get gear with best possible stats for the equivalent of about 5 gold in GW2. A game where gear was supposed to be a non-issue. And you know what they told us about GW2 before release? That it would be exactly the same in that regard: gear would be a non-issue; there would be no gear treadmill and there would be no gear disparity in PvP. Well, guess where we’re at now. Not at all where the game was supposed to be in regards to gear. And people are complaining about it. What a surprise!
And there is not gear disparity in PvP, cause WvWvW is considered as PvEvP, in PvP everyone has the same level of gear. Also, Anet never said it would be exactly the same as GW1 when it came to gear, people made assumptions it would or took quotes out of context to say it was, but Anet never said it would be.
The anti-ascended argument boils down to two camps.
1. Crafting to 500 is too expensive and doing three dynamic events per day is too much of a grind!
2. It imbalances WvW by potentially giving someone have a 5% statistical advantage over… hold on I have to kill this solo upleveled guy with my 5 man VOIP coordinated “havok team.”
What others am I missing?
Pretty much that, if you edit out the obvious sarcasm / bias and throw in some alt / build variety qq’ing.
Oh and one question for you:
I only arguing the difference in stats is small and 8% is small.
Does DnT consider an 8% change in damage to be “small”?
Anything I post is just the opinion of a very vocal minority of 1.
(edited by TooBz.3065)
What a lovely personal anecdote. I have many of those too. I’ve had many times where I’ve won fights with only about 10 HP remaining, sometimes even less. One of my guildies has a Thief who has stomped and escaped that stomp with a big, fat 1 displayed on his health bar. That’s even less than 5% of his total health – while wearing Soldier’s Ascended trinkets. If he had been wearing all exotics – he would have lost. Those are the fights he remembers most, the ones he brags about, and the ones he considers most important.
I dont doubt it. I am sure ascended gear won some people some engagements. So did a well time dodge, using food buffs, having your team do good support and crowd control and many others. All I am saying is this isnt any more crucial then anything else. Also one other thing… I am sure your guildy was very happy for his ascended trinket when he survived the fight with 1 health but how much weight did that victory have in terms of WvW? Cause like others pointed out WvW is not a deathmatch arena. Win and Loss is not about kill to death ratio its about controlling points. Success or failture is not about winning any 1 single engagement that too is just one variable against many. There are many layers to this.
Yes? In DOTA you get gank attempts by multiple heroes all the time. In those situations where you are outnumbered the small differences are why you might be able to kill one before you die or escape just barely holding on to your life.
If you’re able to kill 1 out of the 2 in a dota match then the small statistical difference isnt the only factor that got you the kill not only that but 2 of their team ganging 1 of you also opened a slot for your team to advance.
Think of it this way, if you put 1000 players in a dota match I guarantee you the match would be over in 5 minutes max. Thats because for Dota to work balance is critical.
More red herrings. That there are other unbalanced factors at play does not refute the existence of another that could easily be remedied to not be there.
And, again, if it makes no difference, why have it there in the first place? Why would removing it have any negative impact at all since it’s in a sea of WvW stuff?
A lot of the unbalanced factors are easy to fix. Its not a problem to remove consumables, Siege weapons and walls from WvW. Its not a problem to have everyone using the same stats like sPvP does. Its also not a problem to remove buffs and WvW progression. Would that make for a more or less enjoyable game do you think?
Also I have no problem for ascended gear to be removed from the entire game not just WvW. I am only arguing its not a big deal for it to be there. I am not arguing that it has to stay.
That logic is flawed.
So let’s take 2 of the best spvp players in this game ever, top guilds etc.
They duel each other and the one who loses is now terrible at this game ?! That makes 0 sense, in a duel/1v1 there will always be a victor and a loser, doesn’t mean the loser is terrible just because he was outmatched!
By the way guys, there’s a similar thread in the WvWvW forums if you want to check that out as well.
I’m pretty sure that in a fight between equally skilled opponents, the one that makes a mistake first loses.
I mean, equally skilled opponents mean that one sides wins 50% of the time.
Sure, if they have equal equipment. It’s not that hard to not make mistakes though, especially if it’s one vs one, which means the player with the better equipment will always win.
Bottom line, you’re basing your entire argument off the assumption that the player with ascended gear will make a mistake the other player can exploit, BEFORE the player in the worse gear makes a mistake, or that he will make more mistakes than the player with worse gear. In fact, you’re not actually arguing equal skill at all. In your scenario, the player in the worse gear has better skill. That’s such an unbelievably bad argument to make in defense of gear upgrades.
I’m making the argument that the better class/build/player will change the outcome before gear came into play, a concept that no one seems to grasp.
Ok, so now you’re changing your argument. You’re really desperate, aren’t you? Guess what. That still doesn’t change the opposing argument, which is and always has been:
“So again, how exactly is that a reason to put in ascended gear? If it doesn’t make any difference, why not just leave it out? "
I haven’t changed my argument. Again, read the thread.
Ascended gear is already in, that’s the reason not to remove it.
I know this might be hard for you to swallow, but WvW lets you use the PvE gear you’ve earned on your character rather than normalizing it like sPvP.
This is because WvW isn’t a level playing field, never has been. Upscaled players are disadvantaged; should we scale everyone in the game down to a upscale 80 in rares so you can be secure that gear isn’t the reason you’re losing/winning?
Hell, let’s keep going. Let’s make everyone the same class too, since those vary drastically in strength, and we don’t want that kind of imbalance in a mode that’s supposed to be competitive. /rolleyes
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
the OP doesnt want progression, and he wants WvW to be fair. Its meant to not be fair. what part of 50 versus 10 people is fair? what part of 20 seige golems versus your door is balanced?
Yea it’s unbalanced, so lets just make an orbital ion cannon available for 400g. Why not! Makes perfect sense that because something is unbalanced they shouldn’t in any way strive to make it as balanced as possible. +1
Exaggerating doesn’t help make your point. Ascended gear don’t unbalance the game any more than allowing level 2 players who don’t even have a full set of white gear into wvw does.
Yet no one complains when they have to fight an up level do they?
In fact you could make an argument that allowing up levels into wvw hurts it more than ascended gear does using all the same anti-ascended arguments presented in this thread.
I didn’t see anyone complain about WvW ranks either, and that has more of an effect than pink gear does. But hey! THAT GUY HAS PINK GEAR AND IS RUINING MY FUN!
WvW rank has no effect on a player vs. player battle, only vs. structures / NPCs / siege weapons.
Ascended gear does.
What a lovely personal anecdote. I have many of those too. I’ve had many times where I’ve won fights with only about 10 HP remaining, sometimes even less. One of my guildies has a Thief who has stomped and escaped that stomp with a big, fat 1 displayed on his health bar. That’s even less than 5% of his total health – while wearing Soldier’s Ascended trinkets. If he had been wearing all exotics – he would have lost. Those are the fights he remembers most, the ones he brags about, and the ones he considers most important.
And if he was wearing all rares, and the other was wearing all exotic, he would have lost, and if he was wearing Masterwork, and the other was wearing Exotic he would have lost. If he was level 60 and other other was level 80 he would have lost.
So I don’t see your point.
The two points are thus.
A. All those other advantages you talk about, those are much easier to eliminate. It’s trivially easy to get to level 80 and get rare gear, and almost trivially easy to get exotic gear. Anyone can do it in a matter of days/weeks. Ascended gear is a whole other league of time investment.
B. Why add one more disparity for players to overcome in a game mode that’s supposed to be about competition? There is literally no reason to have ascended stats in WvW.
What you say is easy for you can be hard for someone else and take much more time than you. Apparently ascended is hard for you to get, but there are people where getting exotic is hard to get. What you think is hard and easy to get is no more important than what another person thinks is hard or easy to get. The time frame to get X gear is a moot point when in WvW it very rarely matters if you have ascended gear or not.
EXACTLY. So why make it worse, and put in ascended yet on top of exotic? Personally, I think they should just limit stats in any form of PvP to blue quality, or some specific stat level that all gear in PvP has. Make it about skill, and leave gear out of the equation entirely. That’s how they did it in GW1, and guess what: it worked. That said, the point was that at least the level advantage and rare/exotic gear are somewhat excusable because they don’t require insane amounts of time to accomplish.
The point of WvW is that it is not considered as PvP, it is considered as PvEvP, notice how none of the PvP daily involve WvW. The point of WvWvW is for people who want something resembling open world PvP where people are wearing their PvE gear. If you want competition you play sPvP, WvWvW isn’t really about competition between Player Vs Player, but more about competition with Server Vs Server.
And ascended doesn’t take insane amount of time. A friend of mine who got to level 80 about 6 weeks ago and plays about 15 hours per week, already has all the ascended gear accept for weapons, in which he is looking about 3 more weeks and he’ll have those finished. 2 Months is not insane amount of time
For this game, it absolutely is. This is the successor to Guild Wars. A game where you could get gear with best possible stats for the equivalent of about 5 gold in GW2. A game where gear was supposed to be a non-issue. And you know what they told us about GW2 before release? That it would be exactly the same in that regard: gear would be a non-issue; there would be no gear treadmill and there would be no gear disparity in PvP. Well, guess where we’re at now. Not at all where the game was supposed to be in regards to gear. And people are complaining about it. What a surprise!
And there is not gear disparity in PvP, cause WvWvW is considered as PvEvP, in PvP everyone has the same level of gear. Also, Anet never said it would be exactly the same as GW1 when it came to gear, people made assumptions it would or took quotes out of context to say it was, but Anet never said it would be.
No, they never said it would be exactly the same, and no one expected it to be. They very much marketed the game on the premise that there would be no gear grind to worry about, and that gear would be a non-issue. They had to, because they knew they’d lose the majority of their GW1 fanbase if they didn’t. Well guess what: they did a complete 180 on that, and now they HAVE lost the majority of their GW1 fanbase.
What a lovely personal anecdote. I have many of those too. I’ve had many times where I’ve won fights with only about 10 HP remaining, sometimes even less. One of my guildies has a Thief who has stomped and escaped that stomp with a big, fat 1 displayed on his health bar. That’s even less than 5% of his total health – while wearing Soldier’s Ascended trinkets. If he had been wearing all exotics – he would have lost. Those are the fights he remembers most, the ones he brags about, and the ones he considers most important.
And if he was wearing all rares, and the other was wearing all exotic, he would have lost, and if he was wearing Masterwork, and the other was wearing Exotic he would have lost. If he was level 60 and other other was level 80 he would have lost.
So I don’t see your point.
The two points are thus.
A. All those other advantages you talk about, those are much easier to eliminate. It’s trivially easy to get to level 80 and get rare gear, and almost trivially easy to get exotic gear. Anyone can do it in a matter of days/weeks. Ascended gear is a whole other league of time investment.
B. Why add one more disparity for players to overcome in a game mode that’s supposed to be about competition? There is literally no reason to have ascended stats in WvW.
What you say is easy for you can be hard for someone else and take much more time than you. Apparently ascended is hard for you to get, but there are people where getting exotic is hard to get. What you think is hard and easy to get is no more important than what another person thinks is hard or easy to get. The time frame to get X gear is a moot point when in WvW it very rarely matters if you have ascended gear or not.
EXACTLY. So why make it worse, and put in ascended yet on top of exotic? Personally, I think they should just limit stats in any form of PvP to blue quality, or some specific stat level that all gear in PvP has. Make it about skill, and leave gear out of the equation entirely. That’s how they did it in GW1, and guess what: it worked. That said, the point was that at least the level advantage and rare/exotic gear are somewhat excusable because they don’t require insane amounts of time to accomplish.
The point of WvW is that it is not considered as PvP, it is considered as PvEvP, notice how none of the PvP daily involve WvW. The point of WvWvW is for people who want something resembling open world PvP where people are wearing their PvE gear. If you want competition you play sPvP, WvWvW isn’t really about competition between Player Vs Player, but more about competition with Server Vs Server.
And ascended doesn’t take insane amount of time. A friend of mine who got to level 80 about 6 weeks ago and plays about 15 hours per week, already has all the ascended gear accept for weapons, in which he is looking about 3 more weeks and he’ll have those finished. 2 Months is not insane amount of time
For this game, it absolutely is. This is the successor to Guild Wars. A game where you could get gear with best possible stats for the equivalent of about 5 gold in GW2. A game where gear was supposed to be a non-issue. And you know what they told us about GW2 before release? That it would be exactly the same in that regard: gear would be a non-issue; there would be no gear treadmill and there would be no gear disparity in PvP. Well, guess where we’re at now. Not at all where the game was supposed to be in regards to gear. And people are complaining about it. What a surprise!
And there is not gear disparity in PvP, cause WvWvW is considered as PvEvP, in PvP everyone has the same level of gear. Also, Anet never said it would be exactly the same as GW1 when it came to gear, people made assumptions it would or took quotes out of context to say it was, but Anet never said it would be.
No, they never said it would be exactly the same, and no one expected it to be. They very much marketed the game on the premise that there would be no gear grind to worry about, and that gear would be a non-issue. They had to, because they knew they’d lose the majority of their GW1 fanbase if they didn’t. Well guess what: they did a complete 180 on that, and now they HAVE lost the majority of their GW1 fanbase.
Gear is still a non-issue. I don’t have full exotics and I do fine. I can’t be the only one.
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
Another thing I don’t get about the ascended grinders, is that ascended gear limits choice. It limits build flexibility, it limits experimentation and makes an already fairly shallow game somewhat worse. With exotics, you could have several sets (which are trivial to obtain) and swap as needed.
So now with ascended gear, rather than experimenting, having fun, and working on mastering a class, people have to grind out ascended in order to fully compete (because in our world a +1 advantage doesn’t equal 0). It just really puts a damper on the fun.
If you lose any fight, ever, and blame ascended, YOU are terrible at this game.
Right, because when a grinder who does approx 20% damage defeats you, it means you suck. Does 20=0 now?[/quote]
You do realise we just calculated this a few posts enough to 8.6% max (we’re talking you using all buffs and criticing and all. its not 20%! feel free to point out the error in the calculations above if you feel they’re wrong.
What a lovely personal anecdote. I have many of those too. I’ve had many times where I’ve won fights with only about 10 HP remaining, sometimes even less. One of my guildies has a Thief who has stomped and escaped that stomp with a big, fat 1 displayed on his health bar. That’s even less than 5% of his total health – while wearing Soldier’s Ascended trinkets. If he had been wearing all exotics – he would have lost. Those are the fights he remembers most, the ones he brags about, and the ones he considers most important.
And if he was wearing all rares, and the other was wearing all exotic, he would have lost, and if he was wearing Masterwork, and the other was wearing Exotic he would have lost. If he was level 60 and other other was level 80 he would have lost.
So I don’t see your point.
The two points are thus.
A. All those other advantages you talk about, those are much easier to eliminate. It’s trivially easy to get to level 80 and get rare gear, and almost trivially easy to get exotic gear. Anyone can do it in a matter of days/weeks. Ascended gear is a whole other league of time investment.
B. Why add one more disparity for players to overcome in a game mode that’s supposed to be about competition? There is literally no reason to have ascended stats in WvW.
What you say is easy for you can be hard for someone else and take much more time than you. Apparently ascended is hard for you to get, but there are people where getting exotic is hard to get. What you think is hard and easy to get is no more important than what another person thinks is hard or easy to get. The time frame to get X gear is a moot point when in WvW it very rarely matters if you have ascended gear or not.
EXACTLY. So why make it worse, and put in ascended yet on top of exotic? Personally, I think they should just limit stats in any form of PvP to blue quality, or some specific stat level that all gear in PvP has. Make it about skill, and leave gear out of the equation entirely. That’s how they did it in GW1, and guess what: it worked. That said, the point was that at least the level advantage and rare/exotic gear are somewhat excusable because they don’t require insane amounts of time to accomplish.
The point of WvW is that it is not considered as PvP, it is considered as PvEvP, notice how none of the PvP daily involve WvW. The point of WvWvW is for people who want something resembling open world PvP where people are wearing their PvE gear. If you want competition you play sPvP, WvWvW isn’t really about competition between Player Vs Player, but more about competition with Server Vs Server.
And ascended doesn’t take insane amount of time. A friend of mine who got to level 80 about 6 weeks ago and plays about 15 hours per week, already has all the ascended gear accept for weapons, in which he is looking about 3 more weeks and he’ll have those finished. 2 Months is not insane amount of time
For this game, it absolutely is. This is the successor to Guild Wars. A game where you could get gear with best possible stats for the equivalent of about 5 gold in GW2. A game where gear was supposed to be a non-issue. And you know what they told us about GW2 before release? That it would be exactly the same in that regard: gear would be a non-issue; there would be no gear treadmill and there would be no gear disparity in PvP. Well, guess where we’re at now. Not at all where the game was supposed to be in regards to gear. And people are complaining about it. What a surprise!
And there is not gear disparity in PvP, cause WvWvW is considered as PvEvP, in PvP everyone has the same level of gear. Also, Anet never said it would be exactly the same as GW1 when it came to gear, people made assumptions it would or took quotes out of context to say it was, but Anet never said it would be.
No, they never said it would be exactly the same, and no one expected it to be. They very much marketed the game on the premise that there would be no gear grind to worry about, and that gear would be a non-issue. They had to, because they knew they’d lose the majority of their GW1 fanbase if they didn’t. Well guess what: they did a complete 180 on that, and now they HAVE lost the majority of their GW1 fanbase.
Gear is still a non-issue. I don’t have full exotics and I do fine. I can’t be the only one.
Your anecdotes are not evidence of anything.
You do realise we just calculated this a few posts enough to 8.6% max (we’re talking you using all buffs and criticing and all. its not 20%! feel free to point out the error in the calculations above if you feel they’re wrong.
Does that include armor?
For this game, it absolutely is. This is the successor to Guild Wars. A game where you could get gear with best possible stats for the equivalent of about 5 gold in GW2. A game where gear was supposed to be a non-issue. And you know what they told us about GW2 before release? That it would be exactly the same in that regard: gear would be a non-issue; there would be no gear treadmill and there would be no gear disparity in PvP. Well, guess where we’re at now. Not at all where the game was supposed to be in regards to gear. And people are complaining about it. What a surprise!
That’s the worst argument I’ve ever heard. Time spent isn’t relative to game title. Two months is two months, either you think it’s too long or you think it’s too short. Any person who has played MMOs for any considerable amount of time would consider two months a short time to get fully geared. You can’t say, “well it’s long for this game.” That makes no sense…
I find the length of time to get fully geared in this game to be one of the shortest if not the shortest of any MMO, except GW1 apparently. But who really cares? Short is short.
I won’t stop because I can’t stop.
It’s a medical condition, they say its terminal….
It’s a medical condition, they say its terminal….
Your anecdotes are not evidence of anything.
Except it’s evidence that I’m not penalized to the extent you’re saying I should be.
Sorry to say that your theorycrafting isn’t evidence of anything either, and that was the first claim.
Burden of proof is on you, buddy.
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I dont doubt it. I am sure ascended gear won some people some engagements. So did a well time dodge, using food buffs, having your team do good support and crowd control and many others. All I am saying is this isnt any more crucial then anything else. Also one other thing… I am sure your guildy was very happy for his ascended trinket when he survived the fight with 1 health but how much weight did that victory have in terms of WvW? Cause like others pointed out WvW is not a deathmatch arena. Win and Loss is not about kill to death ratio its about controlling points. Success or failture is not about winning any 1 single engagement that too is just one variable against many. There are many layers to this.
You really like to make red herrings, don’t you? None of that refutes any of the arguments made and are little more than evasion attempts. There are lots of factors that impact WvW? You don’t say? That has nothing to do with anything.
If you’re able to kill 1 out of the 2 in a dota match then the small statistical difference isnt the only factor that got you the kill not only that but 2 of their team ganging 1 of you also opened a slot for your team to advance.
Think of it this way, if you put 1000 players in a dota match I guarantee you the match would be over in 5 minutes max. Thats because for Dota to work balance is critical.
I don’t even know if I should say anything. I have heard it come from Purge’s own mouth how Tread switching into strength for 10 hp at levels where heroes hit for 70+ and have nukes of 200+ damage is the only reason he was saved from ganks and even got some kills. It’s like you don’t know anything about DOTA, which is probably the case.
A lot of the unbalanced factors are easy to fix.
You are absolutely right. Gear being one of them. So somebody should fix it.
That logic is flawed.
So let’s take 2 of the best spvp players in this game ever, top guilds etc.
They duel each other and the one who loses is now terrible at this game ?! That makes 0 sense, in a duel/1v1 there will always be a victor and a loser, doesn’t mean the loser is terrible just because he was outmatched!
By the way guys, there’s a similar thread in the WvWvW forums if you want to check that out as well.
I’m pretty sure that in a fight between equally skilled opponents, the one that makes a mistake first loses.
I mean, equally skilled opponents mean that one sides wins 50% of the time.
Sure, if they have equal equipment. It’s not that hard to not make mistakes though, especially if it’s one vs one, which means the player with the better equipment will always win.
Bottom line, you’re basing your entire argument off the assumption that the player with ascended gear will make a mistake the other player can exploit, BEFORE the player in the worse gear makes a mistake, or that he will make more mistakes than the player with worse gear. In fact, you’re not actually arguing equal skill at all. In your scenario, the player in the worse gear has better skill. That’s such an unbelievably bad argument to make in defense of gear upgrades.
I’m making the argument that the better class/build/player will change the outcome before gear came into play, a concept that no one seems to grasp.
Ok, so now you’re changing your argument. You’re really desperate, aren’t you? Guess what. That still doesn’t change the opposing argument, which is and always has been:
“So again, how exactly is that a reason to put in ascended gear? If it doesn’t make any difference, why not just leave it out? "
I haven’t changed my argument. Again, read the thread.
Ascended gear is already in, that’s the reason not to remove it.
I know this might be hard for you to swallow, but WvW lets you use the PvE gear you’ve earned on your character rather than normalizing it like sPvP.
This is because WvW isn’t a level playing field, never has been. Upscaled players are disadvantaged; should we scale everyone in the game down to a upscale 80 in rares so you can be secure that gear isn’t the reason you’re losing/winning?
Hell, let’s keep going. Let’s make everyone the same class too, since those vary drastically in strength, and we don’t want that kind of imbalance in a mode that’s supposed to be competitive. /rolleyes
No, sorry, I’m not going to go back and re-read the thread. It’s not necessary. Clearly someone made an argument that changed your original argument to what it was when I first started in the discussion. And yes, you do keep changing your argument when you respond to me. At this point you’ve made three completely different arguments, none of which does anything to refute the argument made by the OP.
Here’s your three arguments you made in the short discussion with me:
1. A better skilled player can overcome the gear advantage
2. A more powerful class can overcome the gear advantage
3. It’s already there, so that justifies giving players a gear advantage just because they’ve spent two months getting it
So again, if it doesn’t matter, why not just cap stats at a lower level? Or why not just raise everyone’s stats to ascended level? It’s not a difficult thing to do. You don’t even have to actually remove ascended gear to accomplish what the OP wants. Why is it so important that certain players get an arbitrary advantage (however small) simply because they happen to have spent more hours doing some arbitrary gameplay?
I only arguing the difference in stats is small and 8% is small.
Does DnT consider an 8% change in damage to be “small”?
I am afraid I am not sure what you mean by DnT could be cause I am tired… as for if its small or not I will tell you this if we’re in 2 different groups of 3 vs 3 made up of the theif used in the calculation, an ele and a mesmer. Your team is in exotics my team is in ascended gear. Your team knows what they’re doing, my team goes for brute force.
As we close in my team has an 24% extra damage (8% x 3) potential. But your team is wise, the ele buffs you all with 25 stacks of might and the mesmer casts timewarp. Do you know what just happened? your team got a boost of 80% damage for each of your characters. that basically puts you ahead of my team by a whooping 216%
now of course I am not saying thats the norm, my team could not be behaving like newbs and did the same thing putting us again in advantage damage wise All I am saying is a little support can boost each character damage update even by up to 80% … thats 10x more the advantage ascended gear gives you. Am I going to worry about that 8% when other factors such as fighting with a team who doesnt know how to support effectively could cost me 10 times more?
Am I going to worry about that 8% when a good timed interrupt / blind / pushback can negate my enemies most damaging attack that will be worth many times that 8% ?
Every little bit helps am not denying that but this is just 1 variable against many a lot of things can go in favor or against you in WvW many of which are orders of magnitude larger then 8%
That logic is flawed.
So let’s take 2 of the best spvp players in this game ever, top guilds etc.
They duel each other and the one who loses is now terrible at this game ?! That makes 0 sense, in a duel/1v1 there will always be a victor and a loser, doesn’t mean the loser is terrible just because he was outmatched!
By the way guys, there’s a similar thread in the WvWvW forums if you want to check that out as well.
I’m pretty sure that in a fight between equally skilled opponents, the one that makes a mistake first loses.
I mean, equally skilled opponents mean that one sides wins 50% of the time.
Sure, if they have equal equipment. It’s not that hard to not make mistakes though, especially if it’s one vs one, which means the player with the better equipment will always win.
Bottom line, you’re basing your entire argument off the assumption that the player with ascended gear will make a mistake the other player can exploit, BEFORE the player in the worse gear makes a mistake, or that he will make more mistakes than the player with worse gear. In fact, you’re not actually arguing equal skill at all. In your scenario, the player in the worse gear has better skill. That’s such an unbelievably bad argument to make in defense of gear upgrades.
I’m making the argument that the better class/build/player will change the outcome before gear came into play, a concept that no one seems to grasp.
Ok, so now you’re changing your argument. You’re really desperate, aren’t you? Guess what. That still doesn’t change the opposing argument, which is and always has been:
“So again, how exactly is that a reason to put in ascended gear? If it doesn’t make any difference, why not just leave it out? "
I haven’t changed my argument. Again, read the thread.
Ascended gear is already in, that’s the reason not to remove it.
I know this might be hard for you to swallow, but WvW lets you use the PvE gear you’ve earned on your character rather than normalizing it like sPvP.
This is because WvW isn’t a level playing field, never has been. Upscaled players are disadvantaged; should we scale everyone in the game down to a upscale 80 in rares so you can be secure that gear isn’t the reason you’re losing/winning?
Hell, let’s keep going. Let’s make everyone the same class too, since those vary drastically in strength, and we don’t want that kind of imbalance in a mode that’s supposed to be competitive. /rolleyes
No, sorry, I’m not going to go back and re-read the thread. It’s not necessary. Clearly someone made an argument that changed your original argument to what it was when I first started in the discussion. And yes, you do keep changing your argument when you respond to me. At this point you’ve made three completely different arguments, none of which does anything to refute the argument made by the OP.
Here’s your three arguments you made in the short discussion with me:
1. A better skilled player can overcome the gear advantage
2. A more powerful class can overcome the gear advantage
3. It’s already there, so that justifies giving players a gear advantage just because they’ve spent two months getting itSo again, if it doesn’t matter, why not just cap stats at a lower level? Or why not just raise everyone’s stats to ascended level? It’s not a difficult thing to do. You don’t even have to actually remove ascended gear to accomplish what the OP wants. Why is it so important that certain players get an arbitrary advantage (however small) simply because they happen to have spent more hours doing some arbitrary gameplay?
It’s not important they have an advantage, it’s important that the rewards that they earned through playing the game aren’t taken away because someone that wants to be on equal footing without playing the game feels it’s unfair.
I’d be fine with everyone being scaled up to ascended.
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
(edited by Mackdose.6504)
That logic is flawed.
So let’s take 2 of the best spvp players in this game ever, top guilds etc.
They duel each other and the one who loses is now terrible at this game ?! That makes 0 sense, in a duel/1v1 there will always be a victor and a loser, doesn’t mean the loser is terrible just because he was outmatched!
By the way guys, there’s a similar thread in the WvWvW forums if you want to check that out as well.
I’m pretty sure that in a fight between equally skilled opponents, the one that makes a mistake first loses.
I mean, equally skilled opponents mean that one sides wins 50% of the time.
Sure, if they have equal equipment. It’s not that hard to not make mistakes though, especially if it’s one vs one, which means the player with the better equipment will always win.
Bottom line, you’re basing your entire argument off the assumption that the player with ascended gear will make a mistake the other player can exploit, BEFORE the player in the worse gear makes a mistake, or that he will make more mistakes than the player with worse gear. In fact, you’re not actually arguing equal skill at all. In your scenario, the player in the worse gear has better skill. That’s such an unbelievably bad argument to make in defense of gear upgrades.
I’m making the argument that the better class/build/player will change the outcome before gear came into play, a concept that no one seems to grasp.
Ok, so now you’re changing your argument. You’re really desperate, aren’t you? Guess what. That still doesn’t change the opposing argument, which is and always has been:
“So again, how exactly is that a reason to put in ascended gear? If it doesn’t make any difference, why not just leave it out? "
I haven’t changed my argument. Again, read the thread.
Ascended gear is already in, that’s the reason not to remove it.
I know this might be hard for you to swallow, but WvW lets you use the PvE gear you’ve earned on your character rather than normalizing it like sPvP.
This is because WvW isn’t a level playing field, never has been. Upscaled players are disadvantaged; should we scale everyone in the game down to a upscale 80 in rares so you can be secure that gear isn’t the reason you’re losing/winning?
Hell, let’s keep going. Let’s make everyone the same class too, since those vary drastically in strength, and we don’t want that kind of imbalance in a mode that’s supposed to be competitive. /rolleyes
No, sorry, I’m not going to go back and re-read the thread. It’s not necessary. Clearly someone made an argument that changed your original argument to what it was when I first started in the discussion. And yes, you do keep changing your argument when you respond to me. At this point you’ve made three completely different arguments, none of which does anything to refute the argument made by the OP.
Here’s your three arguments you made in the short discussion with me:
1. A better skilled player can overcome the gear advantage
2. A more powerful class can overcome the gear advantage
3. It’s already there, so that justifies giving players a gear advantage just because they’ve spent two months getting itSo again, if it doesn’t matter, why not just cap stats at a lower level? Or why not just raise everyone’s stats to ascended level? It’s not a difficult thing to do. You don’t even have to actually remove ascended gear to accomplish what the OP wants. Why is it so important that certain players get an arbitrary advantage (however small) simply because they happen to have spent more hours doing some arbitrary gameplay?
because if you want that, you go play PvP, not PvEvP.
You really like to make red herrings, don’t you? None of that refutes any of the arguments made and are little more than evasion attempts. There are lots of factors that impact WvW? You don’t say? That has nothing to do with anything.
I could say the same exact thing to you. Ascended gear causes an imbalance. You don’t say? removing it is not going to fix the imbalance so that has nothing to do with anything.
Does that help you out in any way cause it sure doesnt me.
I don’t even know if I should say anything. I have heard it come from Purge’s own mouth how Tread switching into strength for 10 hp at levels where heroes hit for 70+ and have nukes of 200+ damage is the only reason he was saved from ganks and even got some kills. It’s like you don’t know anything about DOTA, which is probably the case.
Thats because you’re not listening to what I am saying. I keep telling you that DOTA is a different beast to WvW. Dota is something thats all about balance hence why the smallest change makes a big difference. WvW isnt like that at all. You’re compare Apples to Oranges.
You are absolutely right. Gear being one of them. So somebody should fix it.
Why ? we’ll still not have balance so what would we have achieved if we “fixed” gear?
Edit: Put fixed in Quotes cause inbalance in WvW doesnt really break anything and thus I dont believe its something that needs fixing.
As we close in my team has an 24% extra damage (8% x 3) potential. But your team is wise, the ele buffs you all with 25 stacks of might and the mesmer casts timewarp. Do you know what just happened? your team got a boost of 80% damage for each of your characters. that basically puts you ahead of my team by a whooping 216%
Sorry, math mistakes bug me, Im OCD on that kind of stuff, kind of like a Grammar World War 2 German leader. But if each person is doing 8% more damage, you do not multiple it by 3 to get the total extra damage that the team is making. Let me show you an example.
Lets say each person does 100 DPS in exotic gear, so 8% more would be 108 DPS in ascended gear. So for a group of 3, that would be 300 DPS for exotic team, and 324 DPS for an ascended team, 324 is still 8% more than 300.
Other than that, agree with your post.
Every little bit helps I am not denying that, but this is just 1 variable against many and a lot of things can go in favor for against you in WvW , many of which are orders of magnitude larger then 8%
Quoted for emphasis, this is exactly what everyone has been saying in regards to “makes no difference.”
We’re not saying there’s no change at all, we’re saying the changes aren’t large enough to pose a significant disadvantage to an exotic-equipped player.
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
It’s not important they have an advantage, it’s important that the rewards that they earned through playing the game aren’t taken away because someone that wants to be on equal footing without playing the game feels it’s unfair.
I’d be fine with everyone being scaled up to ascended.
So your whole argument has been about splitting hairs this entire time. Why on earth didn’t you just post that at the very start, and save yourself the time and trouble of all your other pointless arguments?
Edit: Put fixed in Quotes cause inbalance in WvW doesnt really break anything and thus I dont believe its something that needs fixing.
Correct, the imbalance is something that doesn’t need to be fixed, it is clearly intentional, because that is what open world PvEvP is supposed to be, it is like that by design.
IF you are trying to compete on a personal level in PvEvP (WvWvW) then you have completely missed the point of WvWvW, and you would be better off playing sPvP.
I could say the same exact thing to you. Ascended gear causes an imbalance. You don’t say? removing it is not going to fix the imbalance so that has nothing to do with anything.
Does that help you out in any way cause it sure doesnt me.
No, you couldn’t. You must not have read the thread’s title. Here it is: Remove Ascended from WvWvW
I’m talking about the imbalance of As gear. You talking about all the other imbalances is what has nothing to do with anything.
You seem confused, have you slept poorly recently?
Thats because you’re not listening to what I am saying. I keep telling you that DOTA is a different beast to WvW. Dota is something thats all about balance hence why the smallest change makes a big difference. WvW isnt like that at all. You’re compare Apples to Oranges.
Erm. No. It’s nice of you to try and move the goal post, but that argument is already sunk. DOTA has plenty of situations where you are not in an even position with your opponent or opponents, and guess what? Stats matter in those situations too.
Why ? we’ll still not have balance so what would we have achieved if we “fixed” gear?
More balance? Sup, man that doesn’t care about removing As gear.
(edited by TainoFuerte.8136)
It’s not important they have an advantage, it’s important that the rewards that they earned through playing the game aren’t taken away because someone that wants to be on equal footing without playing the game feels it’s unfair.
I’d be fine with everyone being scaled up to ascended.
So your whole argument has been about splitting hairs this entire time. Why on earth didn’t you just post that at the very start, and save yourself the time and trouble of all your other pointless arguments?
I don’t think any changes should be made in WvW at all, and I dislike the reasons given to justify player’s rewards being taken away.
I argued against the justifications.
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
IF you are trying to compete on a personal level in PvEvP (WvWvW) then you have completely missed the point of WvWvW, and you would be better off playing sPvP.
Which has squat all to do with gear advantages. I, for one, would much rather be on the team that has all ascended gear facing the team that’s just equipped with exotics across the board. Sure, it’s not a guaranteed win, but I’d much rather have the advantage than not have it.
And again, the point remains: if gear makes so little difference, why not just put everyone’s stats at the same level, making it more fun for everyone?
It’s not important they have an advantage, it’s important that the rewards that they earned through playing the game aren’t taken away because someone that wants to be on equal footing without playing the game feels it’s unfair.
I’d be fine with everyone being scaled up to ascended.
So your whole argument has been about splitting hairs this entire time. Why on earth didn’t you just post that at the very start, and save yourself the time and trouble of all your other pointless arguments?
I don’t think any changes should be made in WvW at all, and I dislike the reasons given to justify player’s rewards being taken away.
I argued against the justifications.
And, as I just pointed out, your arguments against the justifications did nothing to refute them. All those arguments you made were pointless. So again, why did you waste your time splitting hairs, instead of just posting the compromise you’d be OK with?
And again, the point remains: if gear makes so little difference, why not just put everyone’s stats at the same level, making it more fun for everyone?
Because you don’t get paid unless you back Anet’s decisions.
What is the point again?
That you can’t be troubled to Defend the Pact Interrupter or Defeat the High Priestess of Lyssa, or Destroy the Risen Statue of Dwayna once per day?
Don’t you understand, if they played more than one section of the game they’d get ascended gear!
We can’t let that happen. We mustn’t!
At this point in time, lacking ascended gear is more about a lack of effort than a lack of time. Trinkets, rings, accessories have all been available for so long that if you’re a consistent player you should have all of them. Weapons really don’t take as long as people think they do. I’ll be popping out my third one this very night, and I’m pretty kitten casual. (10-15 hours a week, most of which is weekends)
And again, the point remains: if gear makes so little difference, why not just put everyone’s stats at the same level, making it more fun for everyone?
If you want that, there is a mode for that, it is called sPvP. PvEvP (WvWvW) is meant to simulate an open World PvEvP enviroment, therefore it is meant to use PvE gear, it is meant to be unbalanced. Thats why.
Again, go play sPvP if you want to compete on a more personal level.
It’s not important they have an advantage, it’s important that the rewards that they earned through playing the game aren’t taken away because someone that wants to be on equal footing without playing the game feels it’s unfair.
I’d be fine with everyone being scaled up to ascended.
So your whole argument has been about splitting hairs this entire time. Why on earth didn’t you just post that at the very start, and save yourself the time and trouble of all your other pointless arguments?
I don’t think any changes should be made in WvW at all, and I dislike the reasons given to justify player’s rewards being taken away.
I argued against the justifications.
And, as I just pointed out, your arguments against the justifications did nothing to refute them. All those arguments you made were pointless. So again, why did you waste your time splitting hairs, instead of just posting the compromise you’d be OK with?
Because their shouldn’t be a compromise. There’s no problem to fix. Just because someone says there’s a problem doesn’t mean there is one.
Everyone just threw numbers out there and said “See? Massive advantage for grinders!” No evidence, no nothing, just theory.
Cue confirmation bias, straw mans, and outright ignorance of the combat system, and here we are.
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”