Guild Wars 2

Haxwell.7398:

WvW is just garbage in general. Stick with the smaller scale more well developed pvp in the game.

I don’t like pvp – cramped areas, bad camera angles, OP and one sided play.

WvW has potential – unlike anything in any MMO – nothing is like this.

But the glitches and cheats I saw just this morning make it a much more frustrating “thing” than it ever needs to be.

How in the world does the enemy jump OUT of my Citadel (not one SEVERAL)?

Why does a server that has 1/2 or less of the opposing team’s numbers compete even for a week without feeling totally dejected in not being able to keep a single camp with 15-20 guarding/camping at every single tower and camp or have 3-5 times that number running to that keep or tower that within a minute of calling.

I don’t like pvp – if I had known WvW was in GW2 from the beginning I’d be much farther ahead – as it is, I spent my first eight MONTHS in PvP almost exclusively – and the differences are many – five team members versus hundreds – I will keep my WvW and pray for the fixes needed for what is becoming very disheartening for many players who love it.

Oh, and the other thing – getting stuck in a wall has become a daily occurrance…

Reverence.6915:

Condi needs a serious nerf in WvW. It’s ridiculous that some classes can apply more conditions than you can cleanse, basically killing you in less than 5 seconds. There’s so few ways to counter play that and all of them involve a battle of attrition, which isn’t fun.

It’s not so much the individual conditions themselves, but the combination of several conditions together. Confusion by itself is fine. Torment by itself is fine etc. But Bleed, Confusion, Poison, Vulnerability, Weakness etc etc. all applied at the same time is stupid. Especially with the randomness of cleansing and the ease of re-applying the conditions (seriously needs to be an icd on conditions like confusion and torment, say… 30 seconds, in line with most cleanse skills)

Yeah yeah, this has been talked to death and several threads have been made about it, but even so, we need to keep complaining about this until it gets fixed.

If anything needs to be fixed, its direct damage vs conditions on individual basis.

What you described would be the same as several direct damage players hitting you for a 14K burst at the same time. You wont stand a chance. At least with conditions there are ways to negate or even totally erase the effects before its too late. Try cancelling or flipping a 9k back stab, or a 14K warrior burst.

If you hate conditions, there are several classes that thrive on flipping/cancelling/negating/reversing them. Necros, Guardians, and Mesmers are the best condition cleaners, and they have several skills that will help remove allies conditions, very useful.

Condition casters such as condition spec Elems are actually the ones that usually wind up on the dirty end of the stick when it comes to overall dps, as “duration stacking” is a joke vs direct burst damage.

From my perspective power builds are better in every aspect of WvW aside from 1v1 encounters potentially (which the game is not balanced around anyway).

In 5 man roaming groups power is much more effective at bursting enemies down and winning fights due to the group cleanses that will likely be present and the ability to quickly focus damage on a target. This is even more true in zerg vs zerg fights where conditions will disappear in seconds due to the even greater abundance of group condition removals.

So basically conditions already have very limited role in WvW and removing +% condition duration food would further exacerbate this issue by weakening these builds further.

There is no condition meta in PvP or WvW so I don’t see why these foods are even an issue especially when there is a -% duration food that directly counters it if your build lacks condition removal.

Furthermore, many classes rely on the increase duration to do meaningful damage, such as the engineer pistol 1. If these foods were removed it would severely hurt many builds which aren’t even apex builds as the meta stands currently.

Jackums.3496:

If you don’t think condition specs are an issue in WvW (roaming), then you need to look at P/D Perplex Thieves, PU Condi Mesmers, Condi Perplex Engineers, and S/S Condi Warriors. It’s no coincidence that the most powerful roaming builds are almost exclusively condition-oriented, with the exception of SA Thieves (still inferior to P/D Perplex) and PU Power Mesmers (still inferior to PU Condi).

Condition builds offer far greater survivability than power builds do, via dire gear, and a lot more control via the utility of conditions (cripple, poison, weakness, etc).

The core problems, IMO, are condition duration foods and dire gear.

If you really believe this then your not playing your character to its full potential and/or your not running with the right groups.

There isnt a single class in the game that dosent have at least 2-4 condition removal skills + traits and abilities. I play condition builds and can say from experience that players that know what they are doing very easily dodge condition effects, only to direct damage you down in less then 5 seconds.

Put a condition build up vs a warrior or thief, or any good direct damage class build, Ill put my money on the DD build any day of the week.

From my experience, its not the DOT conditions that are OP in any way, in fact, I believe DOT conditions dont stand a chance vs direct damage.

The real OP conditions are the total (and even partial) incapacitation conditions. The ability to literally spam root/stun types of conditions on a player so that the guy has absolutely NO CHANCE of defending him/herself is just wrong.

Passed MMO’s that have implemented total incapacitations (which I am not a big fan of and dont believe should even be in game) at LEAST give the player a few seconds of immunity from them before another can be spammed on the player until dead.

No game should have a stun/stun/stun/dead possible sequence without giving the target a viable chance for survival, its a sleazy way to play.

You know there’s something wrong with the conditions when you cleanse them fast and frequently enough even with Pure Of Voice, Trooper Gear,3 Shouts and 20k HP on Guardian.
Just saying.

Radakill.3469:

From my experience, its not the DOT conditions that are OP in any way, in fact, I believe DOT conditions dont stand a chance vs direct damage.

The real OP conditions are the total (and even partial) incapacitation conditions. The ability to literally spam root/stun types of conditions on a player so that the guy has absolutely NO CHANCE of defending him/herself is just wrong.

Passed MMO’s that have implemented total incapacitations (which I am not a big fan of and dont believe should even be in game) at LEAST give the player a few seconds of immunity from them before another can be spammed on the player until dead.

No game should have a stun/stun/stun/dead possible sequence without giving the target a viable chance for survival, its a sleazy way to play.

Totally agree with you on that. The chill, immobilize, cripple, stun, knockdown, etc. either need to have their durations greatly reduced and the skills that apply them need to be on much longer cooldown, or there needs to be diminishing returns on using it repeatedly against the same target, or a period of immunity before they can be affected by it again. And yeah there’s -duration food and runes for that, but it’s so ridiculous with all the condition spamming at this point that you HAVE to take that just to survive which severely limits build variety and pigeonholes us all into using the same stuff just to survive the ridiculous spamming of control effects.

Also, Torment was a horrible stupid idea to ever have in this game. Why in a game that’s all about active combat and moving around would you create something that punishes players for moving? Very, very stupid idea. Get rid of torment and get rid of dire gear stat.

I cant believe SO many cry about Cond.Conds are SOOO easily cured.
I think Conds are UP not OP.

I know Nikki, here is what she wants :
She want to be god mode, never die,get hurt or have ANY cond effect her..ever.
ANY things that does damage, cc or effects her is “OP”
many feel this way.
Game works fine.
People that cry about Cond or cc are bad players. It never bothers me at all on any of my toons.

frans.8092:

You could perhaps trade some of your awesome burst power for condition counter.
Have you at any time considered that your kind of invincible power burst guardian might be a part of the reason of why roaming has shifted towards condition bunkers? Do you think the players you stomped so easily should have kept playing power based burst builds so they could keep on breaking their teeth on your blind&block guardian? Do you think it is reasonable to expect them to not adapt their builds so that you could have kept playing yours with the same success rate?

oh dear, it turns out that i’m the sole cause for this condi roaming meta! i guess the only way to fix this is to ban me since i broke the game single-handedly! /sarcasm

look. in all my time roaming, i’ve yet to see another guard playing my build. in fact, i’ve yet to see another guard that roams solo on a consistent basis. maybe that’s not the case on the other tiers, but you can’t point fingers at my “kind of invincible power burst guardian” and say i caused the condi roaming meta. (i think a large part of my success is because people who don’t pvp, often panic when all the flashy blue guardian fireworks start. that or people get overconfident and leap in expecting a solo guard to be an easy kill)

also remember that with the ferocity change, power burst builds have lost some dps and it takes noticeably longer to down enemies, which might be enough to either walk away with a sliver of health or get defeated.

and i’m by no means invincible. i have lost to other players with power builds because they were better at avoiding my attacks or have a class that kites well (i die ridiculously quickly to power shatter mesmers because all my attacks cleave or are melee aoe). remember, i have only 16k hp max with all my buffs on, so i can’t just sit back and wait for people to make mistakes. and i sacrifice practically all my sustain with my build so i almost never survive a 2v1 or 3v1 situation, whereas i see really good solo condi bunker mesmers wipe groups of 3.

a lot of my weapon and utility skills are centred around condi-clearing, believe it or not. of the meditations i use, two clear condis (smite condition and contemplation of purity), and greatsword skill 4 gives a light field which i can then combo with skills 5 and 2 for whirl finishers to cleanse. even then, condis are re-applied the moment i cleanse them, and i’ve had fights where up to 6 different conditions were placed on me by one opponent in a second or two. all while i’m trying to catch up so i can land a hit.

so, yes, while you’ve actually brought up a pertinent point (that the current condi meta might have been a response to the power burst roaming meta a while ago), i think it’s unfair to pin all the blame on my build.

p.s. as a side point, you have to realise that my kind of build can’t survive in zerg fights without some modifications, but the condi builds that you see nowadays can easily do that. on top of that, on the occasions i join zerg fights, the experienced commanders on my server are actually using minus condi duration foods instead of omnomberry compotes or healing tick foods. says something, i think.

p.p.s. you had a very accusatory tone in your post, hence this wall of text.

Radakill.3469:

Jackums.3496:

If you don’t think condition specs are an issue in WvW (roaming), then you need to look at P/D Perplex Thieves, PU Condi Mesmers, Condi Perplex Engineers, and S/S Condi Warriors. It’s no coincidence that the most powerful roaming builds are almost exclusively condition-oriented, with the exception of SA Thieves (still inferior to P/D Perplex) and PU Power Mesmers (still inferior to PU Condi).

Condition builds offer far greater survivability than power builds do, via dire gear, and a lot more control via the utility of conditions (cripple, poison, weakness, etc).

The core problems, IMO, are condition duration foods and dire gear.

If you really believe this then your not playing your character to its full potential and/or your not running with the right groups.

There isnt a single class in the game that dosent have at least 2-4 condition removal skills + traits and abilities. I play condition builds and can say from experience that players that know what they are doing very easily dodge condition effects, only to direct damage you down in less then 5 seconds.

Put a condition build up vs a warrior or thief, or any good direct damage class build, Ill put my money on the DD build any day of the week.

Really? I guess people are complaining about condi PU Mesmers and perplexity Thieves for nothing. Anyway, If you’re condi and you’re getting bursted down in less than 5 seconds then something is wrong, especially if you have a group. And I do believe the DOT conditions are indeed powerful, its just that chill, immob, cripple, weakness compound the problem. Having your movement restricted(with zero diminishing returns) while taking passive damage is a big deal, the blind upkeep some builds have doesn’t help either. So not only can condi builds be durable stat wise, but they can actively keep players from even hitting them, through the sheer diversity of conditions available.

And for all the people saying “Just run anti-condi runes/food/utils/traits”, if you can’t see that you’re not exactly helping the “condi spam in small man fights isn’t a problem” case, then I don’t know what to tell you.

Sooo, what profession doesn’t also have access to cripple/chill/immobilize in a power build? Maybe Guardian, but they go with hard CC instead, usually.

Direct damage builds having access to them isn’t the point. It’s the massively convenient combination of having the ability to be tanky with even furthur damage mitigation of these CCs and frequent, high tick passive damage, both with often buffed durations on the cheap.

Honestly, as bad as condi is… thieves are worse. Fix them first.

gennyt.3428:

Direct damage builds having access to them isn’t the point. It’s the massively convenient combination of having the ability to be tanky with even furthur damage mitigation of these CCs and frequent, high tick passive damage, both with often buffed durations on the cheap.

No, it very much is the point. If those conditions are the problem, then the “problem” exists regarding every build. Boosting the duration “on the cheap?” Guess what every single profession’s Power trait line does? That’s right, boost condition duration!

“Convenience” has nothing to do with it. Condition builds do less damage than Power builds with equal investment into offensive stats. This probably shouldn’t be the case, but it is. However, because the condition damage is all over time, they need to be able to survive that time if they are to get kills. Thus, they need durability inherently. However, this also means that they will never match Zerker damage output because there is no “equal offensive investment” gear options for them. Even if there were, they still would rarely get kills as they would die long before their damage has a chance to work (and if they bursted conditions and left, they couldn’t do anything about the cleanse or heal completely denying them).

All passive damage comes from runes and, in only one case, traits (Reaper’s Protection on a Terror necro). Everything else is active. Controlled? Possibly not, but it is active. If you don’t take the hit, you don’t take any damage. Conditions are anything but “passive damage.”

Really? I guess people are complaining about condi PU Mesmers and perplexity Thieves for nothing. Anyway, If you’re condi and you’re getting bursted down in less than 5 seconds then something is wrong, especially if you have a group. And I do believe the DOT conditions are indeed powerful, its just that chill, immob, cripple, weakness compound the problem. Having your movement restricted(with zero diminishing returns) while taking passive damage is a big deal, the blind upkeep some builds have doesn’t help either. So not only can condi builds be durable stat wise, but they can actively keep players from even hitting them, through the sheer diversity of conditions available.

And for all the people saying “Just run anti-condi runes/food/utils/traits”, if you can’t see that you’re not exactly helping the “condi spam in small man fights isn’t a problem” case, then I don’t know what to tell you.

Uh… I burst people down in around 5 seconds playing my war/thief all the time, its not that hard when I can crank out 100 blades (x2)+ burst skill in 6 seconds, its apx 30K damage. Thief 8-9K back stab (x2, or even 3 if I get the right theft) GL getting a condition with duration stacking to do that. Duration stacking DOT’s will max out around 800/tick even with the best condition damage builds.

As I wrote in a follow up post, condition DOT’s are not a problem if you know how to deal with them, they are actually very UP compared to DD. Its the inhibitors that are the real OP conditions, and they are OP due to very few restrictions.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

gennyt.3428:

Direct damage builds having access to them isn’t the point. It’s the massively convenient combination of having the ability to be tanky with even furthur damage mitigation of these CCs and frequent, high tick passive damage, both with often buffed durations on the cheap.

No, it very much is the point. If those conditions are the problem, then the “problem” exists regarding every build. Boosting the duration “on the cheap?” Guess what every single profession’s Power trait line does? That’s right, boost condition duration!

“Convenience” has nothing to do with it. Condition builds do less damage than Power builds with equal investment into offensive stats. This probably shouldn’t be the case, but it is. However, because the condition damage is all over time, they need to be able to survive that time if they are to get kills. Thus, they need durability inherently. However, this also means that they will never match Zerker damage output because there is no “equal offensive investment” gear options for them. Even if there were, they still would rarely get kills as they would die long before their damage has a chance to work (and if they bursted conditions and left, they couldn’t do anything about the cleanse or heal completely denying them).

All passive damage comes from runes and, in only one case, traits (Reaper’s Protection on a Terror necro). Everything else is active. Controlled? Possibly not, but it is active. If you don’t take the hit, you don’t take any damage. Conditions are anything but “passive damage.”

Did I say, chill, cripple, immob were the problem? No. I’m going to quote myself here.

…DOT conditions are indeed powerful, its just that chill, immob, cripple, weakness compound the problem…

…It’s the massively convenient combination of having the ability to be tanky with even furthur damage mitigation of these CCs…

Spend 4 silver and have +40% condi duration for 20 mins(see a lot of power builds running that?). Lemongrass is over 30 silver for 30 mins not to mention the hit to your dps. Anti-condi runes? Yet another hit, every condition rune I know of that has + xCondi duration also gives condi damage. So yeah, on the cheap, I stand by it.

Passive damage is a fair description, the condi built player can focus on survival at any given moment and conditions can still tick away, doing their thing. Should I have called it “indirect damage”? It doesn’t change how it plays out in game. Retal excluded, if a power build is not actively striking, then the damage isn’t happening. I am not saying condi builds shouldn’t be able to survive long enough to get kills, I’m saying what they sacrifice (or don’t) is out of proportion.
——

@ Radakill

Hundred Blades twice in 6 seconds huh? Umm ok.

Necessary stats to maximize raw damage: 1. Power, 2. Precision, 3. Ferocity

Necessary stats to maximize condition damage: 1. Condition Damage

Balance! \o/

The reality is if you are running a hybrid build, you are very likely to be running +condi food instead of a food that adds to power damage. That in itself should speak volumes as to how powerful the food is.

On the flip side it’s quite obvious that if I’m having to run +condi food in order for my soft cc’s to have any significant impact in a fight despite running a power build then the -condi food is also too strong.

I say lets us all play condi builds 24/7 until they nerve it XD

Hackuuna.4085:

The reality is if you are running a hybrid build, you are very likely to be running +condi food instead of a food that adds to power damage. That in itself should speak volumes as to how powerful the food is.

On the flip side it’s quite obvious that if I’m having to run +condi food in order for my soft cc’s to have any significant impact in a fight despite running a power build then the -condi food is also too strong.

I think the best way to deal with the food is to buff the condition specific foods to 40%+ and in turn attach conditions to the general food. For example, making Rare Veggie Pizza function only when your health is above 75% and make Lemongrass Soup only work when your HP is bellow 33%.

Why do you think AoE cleanses in zergs are taken in favour of more offensive utility skills? It’s because condition spam can and does hurt just as much as direct damage

I don’t have problem with the idea of DOT based builds, but there’s just too many different types, and cleanses usually cleanse 3 at a time (guardian can clear all condi but that’s the only class who can, ele’s ether renewal is a joke since it’s so easy to interrupt) when you can apply 4,5,6 or more conditions at the same time. Not to mention most cleanses have ridiculously high cooldowns

Jaha.2840:

Necessary stats to maximize raw damage: 1. Power, 2. Precision, 3. Ferocity

Necessary stats to maximize condition damage: 1. Condition Damage

Balance! \o/

Exactly, thank you.

Yesterday i met a dagger-dagger ele with an insane condition output.
Needed 2 or three seconds to have about 5-6 different conditions including an insanly high ticking burning condition.
From the beginning on I was always in defense because of the condition management.
And bursting a dagger-dagger-ele is almost impossible.
I tried different things (anti-condi-buffood, build changes) but this dd-build was for me unbeatable. I played as a shatter-mesmer.

But maybe im simply a noob ^^

Depending on the toon I’m playing, condi builds are either hard to deal with or I just laugh at them.

On my staff ele, I’ll run away (harder to do against mesmers or thiefs, but possible to live long enough to reach safety usually).

On my necro, I’ll thank you for the boons and just bore you to death whilst having extra healing from each one you put on me when it’s healing time.

On my engi. I’ll just kite you most times- some mesmers are good enough to get me.

Guardian- really? you think you can kill one? Maybe on a very good mesmer, otherwise you’re wasting time and so am I – if it keeps you busy insyead of killing off zergers returning to the zerg, i’m winning.

Warrior- bye bye, he’s just out of your range.

Ranger- struggle against mesmer and thief on that, as it’s not built to counter you.

I have more issues with d/d eles constant regenning and thief’s ability to disappear without a viable counter than with condi builds, and I’m running group support builds mostly.

Conditions don’t need changing (apart from the stacking issue- 25 max- which is never going to be fixed). Just pick your fights if you like roaming, or accept that sometimes on your way back to the raid or zerg you will be picked off by someone built to do just that.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Just wanted to say thank you for being so constructive in this thread guys. We’re watching threads like this one, and we really find peaceful debates to be highly useful for us when gathering balance perception data.

We know food is an issue that definitely gets people passionate, so thank you for staying calm while voicing your opinions! I can’t make any promises on fixes, but I can say we’re debating this issue internally just like you guys are, and we use your points/counterpoints as reference in our discussions.

Thanks for being awesome!

This thing doesn’t know what balance is

Nymph of Meliai.6739:

every class should be able to defeat every class… that is called balance

if you nerf conditions then how does one kill a warrior?

simple, you bring lots of soft CC and a ranger

First off, I would like to say that if the OP got focused by any 3 people on the lowest base armor and lowest base HP profession in the game with a glass build then getting #rekt is not a question of conditions or getting outplayed, it’s a completely balanced fight.

No matter how much active defense, or healing, or cleansing you can do, when three different minds who understand how an Ele fights all set to the purpose of killing one, there isn’t a whole lot you can do but run away, which you should have done. Those 3 people probably had 4 times your health and 5 times your armor rating, and whether they were condition or not, unless you are running very, very tanky, you should lose to that combo.

Now if you faced any of them 1v1, and they got you with just a condition build, it’s either because you 1. didn’t understand the professions condition burst mechanic, or 2. got outplayed because they waited for you to exhaust your cleanses, and then unloaded the conditions. If you are finding that you can’t effectively deal with condition builds, though, consider running something more defensively-minded, or some more mobility to improve your positioning. Either that or run with a buddy, because 3v2 is better than 3v1. An offhand focus might be helpful, or conjure a rock sled for defense or a FGS for escape as well.

I will own up to playing a Perplex Engie in wvw, and I am here to help you nice people. Engies and Necros have very little stability or stun breaks available in condition builds typically. Necros are slow, you can outrun them, or kite them at a decent range if you have that option. Roll over an engies food to tell what type of build they are, and that will give you an idea of how to fight them. Do watch for the Saffron Bread, though, there is a fantastic troll build that uses that food against chain stun groups (up to -73% damage reduction while stunned, lol).

Simple answer:
Play a warrior with melandru runes and the -40% condition duration food. Tada, condi’s are no longer a problem.

It would also help if you learn to play whatever class you are playing because every class has condition clearing skills.

I don’t play condi on any of my characters, but I can tell you that they do not need nurfed. My raw power necro has over 3000 power with stacks and does Life Blasts to most people for 5-13k.. THAT is broken lol.

Josh XT.6053:

Simple answer:
Play a warrior with melandru runes and the -40% condition duration food. Tada, condi’s are no longer a problem.

It would also help if you learn to play whatever class you are playing because every class has condition clearing skills.

I don’t play condi on any of my characters, but I can tell you that they do not need nurfed. My raw power necro has over 3000 power with stacks and does Life Blasts to most people for 5-13k.. THAT is broken lol.

Lol i’m pretty sure i’ve ran into you before…fight was going good then life blast bam i’m rekt’d lol

I play both power and condition engineer, thief and ranger (yep medium armor classes).

Conditions do better in roaming and worse in zergs. That is a good tradeoff. Power is a bit better in group fights and harder to sustain in a small skirmish. Seems fair.

I don’t find that the condition dealer always wins. There is a bit too much sustain on some classes like warrior and the thief you spoke about probably is a bit broken not tied to the condition damage but the ability to sit in stealth after loading you up.

Overall, condition damage is where it needs to be if you deal with a couple of the defensive mechanics of a couple of classes that have conditions but really shouldn’t have as many.

Bombsaway.7198:

I play both power and condition engineer, thief and ranger (yep medium armor classes).

Conditions do better in roaming and worse in zergs. That is a good tradeoff. Power is a bit better in group fights and harder to sustain in a small skirmish. Seems fair.

I don’t find that the condition dealer always wins. There is a bit too much sustain on some classes like warrior and the thief you spoke about probably is a bit broken not tied to the condition damage but the ability to sit in stealth after loading you up.

Overall, condition damage is where it needs to be if you deal with a couple of the defensive mechanics of a couple of classes that have conditions but really shouldn’t have as many.

This is an excellent short synopsis, and I would add that certain runes and sigils definitely influence the number of different conditions you receive from certain builds, the condition thief with Krait runes, torment sigil and doom sigil springs to mind.

I built a dire thief for Wvw just to see what it was like… it’s laughable. Far less work than my engineer with substantial rewards, but SO BORING… stealth > mash 1, stealth again > mash 1… repeat.

Jackums.3496:

Radakill.3469:

Jackums.3496:

If you don’t think condition specs are an issue in WvW (roaming), then you need to look at P/D Perplex Thieves, PU Condi Mesmers, Condi Perplex Engineers, and S/S Condi Warriors. It’s no coincidence that the most powerful roaming builds are almost exclusively condition-oriented, with the exception of SA Thieves (still inferior to P/D Perplex) and PU Power Mesmers (still inferior to PU Condi).

Condition builds offer far greater survivability than power builds do, via dire gear, and a lot more control via the utility of conditions (cripple, poison, weakness, etc).

The core problems, IMO, are condition duration foods and dire gear.

If you really believe this then your not playing your character to its full potential and/or your not running with the right groups.

There isnt a single class in the game that dosent have at least 2-4 condition removal skills + traits and abilities. I play condition builds and can say from experience that players that know what they are doing very easily dodge condition effects, only to direct damage you down in less then 5 seconds.

Put a condition build up vs a warrior or thief, or any good direct damage class build, Ill put my money on the DD build any day of the week.

So power builds can evade every condition application successfully, but condition builds conveniently just stand there and get downed within 5 seconds? If you really believe that, then you need to play against better players or discover the crutch that is dire gear.

No power build is going to 1v1 a P/D Perplex Thief or PU Condi Mesmer of equal skill, and the only one that comes close is an SA Thief, because they can drop into stealth for condi cleanse and reset the fight at will. Though so can P/D Thieves and PU Mesmers. The difference? The latter two have bunker-like stats due to their stat distribution.

The last sentence of your response makes me think you’ve never even roamed.

Your right, rank 383 but Ive never roamed, I just hang around the WP’s and listen to chat, its a great way to level up.

With that said, I admit I did not specify the types of condition builds I was referring too, I thought I had clarified that with the follow up post. Guess you missed it.

I agree with you when it comes to DD condition inhibitor builds. DOT builds have a more limited use, especially in roaming and open area situations. They are somewhat effective in siege offense or defense, but in a good ol fashioned brawl, give me DD any day. Burst will almost always prevail there due to much better overall DPS with inhibitors.

As to the thief builds your talking in absolutes here and most of this is rhetorical. ANY thief build with the right traits can drop into stealth and cleanse or heal. I do it all the time with my d/d build, without having to WS to s/p. About the only thing I need s/p for is the SS, otherwise in most situations its a waste of init. The thief inhibitors are not of much use as their base time is so low, any extended time percent wont make much of a difference.

I’m not sure if conditions generally need a nerf.

The 2 most popular roaming classes are warriors and thieves – and both escape fights quite easily. Cleansing ire seems pretty good.

In small group fights, the condition necromancer and the engineer get dogpiled – often by thieves and warriors. Both lack stability.

Perhaps Perplexity Runes need to get nerfed. But then again, a lot of things need to get nerfed. Runes of Strength …

I see more and more thieves and warriors every day. Don’t touch necromancer and engineers. The latter are so rare now in wvw.

The only thing wrong with conditions is that they don’t stop ticking when you block/are invulnerable. This is what makes it seem like you get steamrolled by condi builds. The only mitigation is high health and cleanses. You can’t really dodge conditions like you can dodge a 10k backstab.

Adding Torment and changing Weakness along with the new sigils / runes really tipped the scales in WvW I think. A condition build can burst very quickly now and is no longer used for control, which says a lot since all the tools for control are still there and even buffed.

That being said conditions are balanced (maybe even on the weaker side) by the time it’s a 5v5 and useless by the time it’s a 10v10. It’s an iffy situation and I’m not really sure what to do about it.

Melandru + Lemongrass. END

@ Radakill

So I’m a troll because 6 seconds is not approximately 12 seconds? It can’t possibly be that hard to say “I was wrong, my bad.”.

Radakill.3469:

Jackums.3496:

Radakill.3469:

Jackums.3496:

If you don’t think condition specs are an issue in WvW (roaming), then you need to look at P/D Perplex Thieves, PU Condi Mesmers, Condi Perplex Engineers, and S/S Condi Warriors. It’s no coincidence that the most powerful roaming builds are almost exclusively condition-oriented, with the exception of SA Thieves (still inferior to P/D Perplex) and PU Power Mesmers (still inferior to PU Condi).

Condition builds offer far greater survivability than power builds do, via dire gear, and a lot more control via the utility of conditions (cripple, poison, weakness, etc).

The core problems, IMO, are condition duration foods and dire gear.

If you really believe this then your not playing your character to its full potential and/or your not running with the right groups.

There isnt a single class in the game that dosent have at least 2-4 condition removal skills + traits and abilities. I play condition builds and can say from experience that players that know what they are doing very easily dodge condition effects, only to direct damage you down in less then 5 seconds.

Put a condition build up vs a warrior or thief, or any good direct damage class build, Ill put my money on the DD build any day of the week.

So power builds can evade every condition application successfully, but condition builds conveniently just stand there and get downed within 5 seconds? If you really believe that, then you need to play against better players or discover the crutch that is dire gear.

No power build is going to 1v1 a P/D Perplex Thief or PU Condi Mesmer of equal skill, and the only one that comes close is an SA Thief, because they can drop into stealth for condi cleanse and reset the fight at will. Though so can P/D Thieves and PU Mesmers. The difference? The latter two have bunker-like stats due to their stat distribution.

The last sentence of your response makes me think you’ve never even roamed.

Your right, rank 383 but Ive never roamed, I just hang around the WP’s and listen to chat, its a great way to level up.
….

This is why he thinks you have little idea of what you’re talking about and quite frankly, I can’t blame him.

Spicyhash.7605:

You can’t really dodge conditions like you can dodge a 10k backstab.

This is just not true, and it is why people get so upset about conditions.

If a sword/sword condi-warrior is coming to get you, you can dodge his Impale. If you dodge that, you avoid 5-10k Torment. Thats the same as dodging a backstab.

If you dodge his Flurry, then you dodge ~5k bleeding damage.

Its the same amount of damage. Just because it ticks down over a period of 5-10 seconds, rather than all at once, doesn’t mean it is taking any more of your health than a backstab.

The only difference is that the condition damage can be cleansed before it has a chance to do all its damage. This is off-set by making condi damage ignore armour.

Banana Slayer.1734:

Jaha.2840:

Necessary stats to maximize raw damage: 1. Power, 2. Precision, 3. Ferocity

Necessary stats to maximize condition damage: 1. Condition Damage

Balance! \o/

Exactly, thank you.

Very wrong. Condition damage, condition duration and precision. Perhaps all of the people complaining about conditions should try a condition build to learn how to counter it. I used to get perma stun locked all of the time and instead of complaining I ran the classes that where wrecking me to figure out their limitations/tells.

I really dont understand this thread. All I do in this game in roaming in WvW, and pwoer based builds are, by a HUGE margin, the more common. I fight probably 5 power builds for every pure condition build I meet.

And then I dont find condition builds to be any harder or easier than power builds. The only 2 exceptions are P/D thieves and Condi PU mesmers… but the problem with them is more to do with the fact that they are ranged based and heavy stealth users which makes them more or less impossible to get at, it’s got nothing really to do with the fact they are using conditions.

Haxwell.7398:

WvW is just garbage in general. Stick with the smaller scale more well developed pvp in the game.

ewwww – begone with ye sataaaaaan!!!!

Just remove the godkitten food from the game.
I hate being forced to have food so I can be in an equal level with other players

Insight.1683:

Melandru + Lemongrass. END

i normally ignore unproductive posts like this, but it made me wonder: what will happen to build diversity if we have to build to survive whatever meta is prevalent? oh wait.. there was no diversity to begin with.

we always just went with metas and either pwned or died trying. and then the next meta comes along and we either jump on the bandwagon or die trying, etc. etc.

sure, you can still make your own build and play how you like, but you’re never going to be optimal. i still remember when gw2 was young and i ran around with spirit weapons.. sigh.. those were the days..

in other words, build diversity in mmos is a myth. hence we either adapt to the situation or die trying. the problem for me is, some classes just cannot do certain things no matter how hard we try.

i main guardian, and a condiguard is just gonna be a joke. sure, i can be a good cleanser in small groups or zergs, but then i won’t be able to do what i like: running around in traveler runes (only because we have no passive movement speed skills/traits) and actively scouting while denying supply and ganking.

sorry for being out of topic but i think there is some relevance to this debate about condis. you either try and adapt to the meta and choose your fights, or be forever frustrated because, unless there is a massive, in-depth revamp of runes, sigils, condition triggers and stacks (redesigning everything, basically), that is how the game is going to be.

iHungeri.4096:

… and then the next meta comes along …

sure, you can still make your own build and play how you like, but you’re never going to be optimal.

Or … you could be the one to introduce the next meta build ….

Jackums.3496:

Radakill.3469:

Your right, rank 383 but Ive never roamed, I just hang around the WP’s and listen to chat, its a great way to level up.

With that said, I admit I did not specify the types of condition builds I was referring too, I thought I had clarified that with the follow up post. Guess you missed it.

I agree with you when it comes to DD condition inhibitor builds. DOT builds have a more limited use, especially in roaming and open area situations. They are somewhat effective in siege offense or defense, but in a good ol fashioned brawl, give me DD any day. Burst will almost always prevail there due to much better overall DPS with inhibitors.

As to the thief builds your talking in absolutes here and most of this is rhetorical. ANY thief build with the right traits can drop into stealth and cleanse or heal. I do it all the time with my d/d build, without having to WS to s/p. About the only thing I need s/p for is the SS, otherwise in most situations its a waste of init. The thief inhibitors are not of much use as their base time is so low, any extended time percent wont make much of a difference.

This post did nothing to refute my point. You said you were unclear in your initial statement, then you went on to pick at my wording of Thief specs when you know the general builds I was referring to. Where exactly is the counter-argument to the fact that 80% of the most effective roaming builds right now are condition-based?

P/D Perplex Thief, PU Condi Mesmer, S/S Condi Warrior, Perplex Condi Engineer.

What power specs can compete? SA Thief, and… PU Power Mesmer. And PU Power Mesmers still have weak condition cleanse and inferior survivability. Meaning you’re essentially left with a single power build in the top five roaming specs, and it will still generally end in a stalemate if it doesn’t outright lose, because the condition specs listed all have great disengage ability and bunker-like stats to mitigate burst.

you seem to be stuck in a 1v1 mentality in a team game.

that being said, pu mesms and condi thieves are very easily countered in 1v1s as well -depending on class, build and skill level- and in a group both are utterly useless.

Just a thought on condition food re-balancing, change the +condition duration on damaging conditions (bleeding, confusion, poison, etc.) to +10% duration and leave the mobility related (cripple, chill, immobilize) at +40%.

This change would address the concerns that mobility-based conditions would be too dramatic when it is used as a supplement with food. Immobilize is still probably too strong in some instances but those are one offs on certain abilities (thanks to immobilize stacking).

My general thought is that condition-based specs (sPvP) is still way too strong even when food is not involved. It has to do with stat allocation and the disparity between power-damage-related output to condition-damage-related output for both burst and DPS output.

We have an odd GW2 meta that is based on high condition damage/high condition removal with some power burst (active defenses available to all players allows the skill levels to shine through against power burst here though). The CC part of the meta is relatively balanced with the plethora of stun breaks, teleport and stability options. And in current state, it is better than old GW2 tank build days but the Ferocity implementation really makes you see how far the pendulum has swung.

I still think lowering base condition damage across the board and implementing crit chance/crit damage to each condition damage tick is the way to go. This ‘fixes’ Dire without completely gutting it as the end-all-be-all stat choice in WvW (especially small group roaming) and would slightly tweak the sPvP side (obviously no Dire) where that playstyle needs it too but at a much smaller margin.

Jackums.3496:

Maskaganda.2043:

you seem to be stuck in a 1v1 mentality in a team game.

that being said, pu mesms and condi thieves are very easily countered in 1v1s as well -depending on class, build and skill level- and in a group both are utterly useless.

Did you read the title of the thread you’re replying to? Take note of the word; roaming. Ie. The thing that typically involves solo or small group play.

That being said, no. In 1v1s and small skirmishes, those specs are king, putting into consideration everything that makes an effective roaming build, including mobility and ability to disengage, and damage output and sustainability.

This topic isn’t about zerging.

did I say anything at all about zerging? I don’t zerg and never did, very rarely do I run with more than 5 guys and never ran with more than 10. roaming is all I do, with 8 different classes. roaming isn’t about 1v1. thats unchallenging.

lately I play less solo and more in small groups (5 or less) because you know, I have friends. Conditions are rarely an issue. chain ccs worry me alot more than conditions. biggest reason why any successful 5 man group is pretty much forced to run with 2 guards. almost anyone can cleanse in aoe, but aoe stability and protection is a whole other thing.

the game isn’t balanced around 1v1s. it shouldn’t be. it won’t be. and I’m telling you this while winning the vast majority of 1v1s with a build that barely anyone plays. a p/d dire thief is a free kill for my (hybrid) engie and so are pu mesmers. and I’m pretty screwed when I find a competent necro, be it power, hybrid or cd. it’s just the way it goes.

but add a couple of players on each side who can cover your weaknesses while you cover theirs and you’ll laugh at those mostly useless builds. Hell, I run my zerker shatter mesmer with 0 active condition removal when in a group and that’s never what kills me.

and yes, any small roaming group (3-5 guys) which takes a condie pu mesmer or a non-venom share p/d thief is just gimping itself in most situations. for situations other than those (1v1, 2v2) there’s still plenty of easy counters to those 2 builds you seem to have so much trouble with.

I thought of a possible solution to this problem that wouldnt kitten off either side. Right now we have 2 groups of people in this game. The condition spammers who think conditions are fine as is and dont want their easy mode taken away, and those of us who are sick of it and want a change. Rather than just flat out nerfing conditions, why not change the way that cleanses work? Right now how they just prioritize what is on you last allowing all the mindless 1 button spam of cover conditions and passive procs and crap thats going on now to happen. The system is terrible how it is now. In one of the other threads someone said something that got me thinking. The thread about what fields your blasts prioritize. It would be nice to have something in options where you could select which fields you want prioritized so your fire fields aren’t overwritten by all the mindless guardian light field spamming. Something similar could work for conditions. Just put something in the options tab that allows us to customize how our cleanses work. Let US decide which conditions we want prioritized rather than RNG. A simple checklist with numbers with all the conditions in game is all that would be needed. 1 being highest priority that we would want removed first before anything else 2 being the next one, and so on and so forth.

This simple change would allow actual counterplay to all the condition spam. Condition users would actually have to think when to use their conditions to get you to blow your cure so the conditions they want will stick on you, rather than the current spam everything at once and abuse the fact that conditions can be reapplied faster than cleanses will be off of cooldown that we currently have. This would add alot more depth and actual thinking to combat and less auto-win passive builds that we see now.

Also another thing i noticed when looking at some NPCs. Npcs that get stability say they are unaffected by all control effects when they have stability. this seems to include chill, immobilize, cripple as well. Why doesn’t our version work that way? Stability and stunbreakers should negate cripple, chill, and immobilize as well.

Oh come now, some conditions would always be cleansed first (burning/bleeding/torment/confusion) if you allow a priority cleanse. It would still defeat the purpose of a conditions build. There is some player skill involved here, as well as roaming specific builds. If I want to roam, I play a roam built character. I want to hop on the bus, I play a bus character. Condi builds are good in roaming because they counter full blast builds that are used to downing most players in the first few seconds. That’s the choice you make with a blast build, fail your blast and you’re toast. Condi builds rely on surviving the blast phases to win. There aren’t any OP builds as such, just learn to defeat each class with each character. The more you play all aspects of the game, the more you learn about each class and skill sets, and the most common builds. Once you know those, the available counters for each class appear to you.
Honestly, it’s almost like chosing a pokemon. Some builds will be powerless against this one but OP against that one. I got wrecked with my condi engi by an ether renewal, water cleanse ele, but crushed a dual dagger blaster ele. If you make a specific build type, you will be vulnerable to whatever your counter build is; you can still win but it’s a much harder fight.