Guild Wars 2

Oh please, that is such a load of bull and you know it. I’ve played the typical PU spec on my mes and it’s beyond faceroll. I’ve never, ever lost once in a 1 on 1 fight to any power based build, they simply don’t stand a chance. Even eles fully specced to cleanse everything under the sun stand zero chance of ever killing me. they do zero damage and i eventually wear them down with non stop condition spam. A coma patient could be successful with with the way conditions work now. It takes ZERO skill to play it. I was so bored with it i went back to shatter spec, because atleast that takes someone with a pulse to play as. An you’ve made a huge understatement saying condition builds are good for roaming. they are THE choice for roaming because power based specs just cant compete. power has to sacrifice defense to do any significant damage, condi doesn’t. That is not balanced.

The key “issue” with condition damage is the irrational nature of what gets removed when you use a condition cleanse.

I understand that to some extent any “system” ANET decides for condition removal prioritization will have supporters and detractors. Is bleed greater than burning? Should it be the damage per tick or total damage left?

The best way to really “fix conditions” would be to allow players to prioritize what type of condition damage was removed first FOR THEM. They would have a panel and rank conditions. Now, you never know what conditions you will face or whether burning really will be a worse problem than bleeding for a particular foe. . . . You don’t increase the number of conditions you remove, just have some strategic say in what type is removed first.

Better idea: make more of the condition removal skills work like those a Thief has: Withdraw/Roll for Initiative removes the movement-inhibiting ones, Hide in Shadows removes DoT’s (other than Torment).

In other words: make cleanses more specific in what they cleanse. Choices get made and create build variety.

Nikkinella.8254:

I thought of a possible solution to this problem that wouldnt kitten off either side. Right now we have 2 groups of people in this game. The condition spammers who think conditions are fine as is and dont want their easy mode taken away, and those of us who are sick of it and want a change.

You lost all possible credibility of your first sentence with the third sentence. I play both power and condi on most of my characters (I like to mix it up) so I’m kind of in the middle of the road on this discussion but after reading the third sentence I literally wrote off your entire post lol.

Hahaha, I love these Conditions OP, or please do something about conditions threads.
Look at it this way and maybe you’ll reconsider your request: Conditions are hard to cleanse, easy to apply and are readily available in many ways.
What about power damage? It’s difficult to avoid, easy to apply, available through all weapons and most utilities.

Fair? Fair.

Showing up to a condi fight with a power build is like taking a knife to a gun fight… and the guy with the gun has a stab vest.

Condi spam is heavily effecting nearly every aspect of play in the game. Zergs and skill groups now run Lemongrass. In small group fights, condi groups are ridiculously hard to beat. Certainly in 1v1 most experienced players know how powerful condi is.

IMO the debate on condi-bunkers being OP is closed as they are OP at least in small scale. The discussion should really center around how to resolve it. To me no class/build should have high bunker and high damage. It is counter to virtually every form of MMO PvP balance.

I’m a very open minded person and I simply do not agree with the complaints being made about conditions. Every one is entitled to an opinion and with how many people agree that it needs to be fixed it’s hard to argue. But as someone who mains a Ranger with 16k vitality, Healing Spring and my pets passive condition removal being my only cleanses… I still find it hard to believe conditions need to be fixed.
Don’t back pedal and try to play attrition with someone who’s built for attrition. Pressure them and be extremely offensive instead of giving them the opportunity to condition nuke you. Applying conditions takes time, don’t give them the time to do it.

The main reason condition builds are overpowered is its “fire and forget” once you get the condi bomb or any amount of condis on someone you can move to a different target and you’ll still deal damage – even if your target is running away…you’re still dealing damage.

With direct damage, you have to be active with your skills. However, things like confusion/torment will hurt your ability to kite.

Condi builds aren’t traditional in the sense that they don’t have to sacrifice any stats to maximize damage. Take Dire Gear for example in WvW. They get their main stat CONDI, but still retain tankiness such as toughness and vitality while still outputting a lot of damage. However, with Zerker gear, they give up survivability to do damage. Even Rabid gear doesn’t give the same effect. Dire gear doesn’t have the same sacrifice which is why it is overpowered in combination with Condition classes

There are some classes such as condition thieves, that can overload a single target with a ton of conditions. Signet of Spite is a perfect example of a skill (condi) that can shut down people

Yes, there are somethings about direct damage that need to be toned down such as the double fire/air sigil proc or the toning down of strength runes. However, if you think condi damage is balanced, you clearly haven’t fought a perplexity warrior/necro. Or a condi pu mesmer just to name a few.

Jedge.3619:

The main reason condition builds are overpowered is its “fire and forget” once you get the condi bomb or any amount of condis on someone you can move to a different target and you’ll still deal damage – even if your target is running away…you’re still dealing damage.

With direct damage, you have to be active with your skills. However, things like confusion/torment will hurt your ability to kite.

Direct damage is even more “fire and forget”. Once you land your hits, you’re completely done with it. You don’t even have to worry about cleanses, you are literally completely done with those attacks.

The thing is, once you load up a target with a number of conditions, you could have just killed them in the same number of hits from a Power build.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Jedge.3619:

The main reason condition builds are overpowered is its “fire and forget” once you get the condi bomb or any amount of condis on someone you can move to a different target and you’ll still deal damage – even if your target is running away…you’re still dealing damage.

With direct damage, you have to be active with your skills. However, things like confusion/torment will hurt your ability to kite.

Direct damage is even more “fire and forget”. Once you land your hits, you’re completely done with it. You don’t even have to worry about cleanses, you are literally completely done with those attacks.

The thing is, once you load up a target with a number of conditions, you could have just killed them in the same number of hits from a Power build.

THANK YOU. This guy gets it.
I understand why and how people think conditions are broken but I don’t get how people can’t learn to pressure the applier.
As someone has said it’s like bringing a gun to a knife fight… But power is the gun not the knife. The melee attacker must make their opponent bleed and succumb to pain. The gun attacker needs only to land a good shot. Of the attacker using the gun is back peddling waiting for a headshot while the knife attacker is getting plenty of stabs and scrapes in OFC the other guy’s going to die…
tldr; Don’t wait for the perfect opportunity or constantly focus on cleansing… Get in their face, conditions are DOT, damage OVER TIME. It takes time for them to wind up, don’t let them.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Direct damage is even more “fire and forget”. Once you land your hits, you’re completely done with it. You don’t even have to worry about cleanses, you are literally completely done with those attacks.

The thing is, once you load up a target with a number of conditions, you could have just killed them in the same number of hits from a Power build.

Most direct damage builds have to be in melee range of their target navigating evades, invulns, blocks, stuns, immobilizes, etc to land those big hits. To even get big hits the player has to sacrifice survival of some sort. Sure once they get to the target, they land a direct active blow but that shot is mitigated by toughness and armor.

Condi damage on the other hand is nearly passive. Players simply avoid damage by kiting, stealth, multiple health pools, bunkering, etc while constantly applying damage and other conditions that effect mobility. A PU condi mesmer doesn’t even need to actively engage their opponent at all. By simply defending they generate a massive amount of condi application. Many necro and engi builds are the same.

If condi application had three components for damage rather than two AND was mostly applied from melee range AND routed through toughness, yes condi would be at a disadvantage.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

tldr; Don’t wait for the perfect opportunity or constantly focus on cleansing… Get in their face, conditions are DOT, damage OVER TIME. It takes time for them to wind up, don’t let them.

Bringing pain to a bunker class with direct damage is very difficult. PU condi mesmers, plague necros, turret engis, condi warriors, evasion thieves, stealth condi thieves are all VERY effective at dropping melee builds. They have practically every advantage in a small fight since they trade practically nothing for their damage unlike their direct damage opponents.

It is funny how some people assume, that it was already established condition builds would be overpowered. I have yet to see the evidence for that. I read condition spam all the time, however, what about direct damage spam? People want condition users to think about, when to apply conditions. However, the good condition users do that, and that is what’s destroying you. Blow your cleanses on the easy mode conditions and of course you will then be spammed with the real deal.

I rarely run a condition build when roaming. But when I do, I run as necromancer and I see, that people simply don’t know how to react to conditions. Blowing cleanses either way way too early or wait just till the last moment, when I just chain fear them, because I have loaded up enough conditions.

And it was then in the Edge of the Mists, the last place where I’d expect that, that I found a Mesmer, who knew how to deal with a condition build. He stayed away, avoided to get close and be hit with all the close range AoE condition applies. Letting me reach him only with staff and therefore keep condition application low. Only once did I manage to get close to him and load him up. What he then simply cleansed. It ended in a stalemate, because my zerg arrived. But that one knew, how it is done.

It is in many cases a learn to play issue. And some players (not even the majority, just some, who seem to scream the loudest) refuse to educate themselves on how to deal with such kind of builds.

Straegen.2938:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Direct damage is even more “fire and forget”. Once you land your hits, you’re completely done with it. You don’t even have to worry about cleanses, you are literally completely done with those attacks.

The thing is, once you load up a target with a number of conditions, you could have just killed them in the same number of hits from a Power build.

Most direct damage builds have to be in melee range of their target navigating evades, invulns, blocks, stuns, immobilizes, etc to land those big hits. To even get big hits the player has to sacrifice survival of some sort. Sure once they get to the target, they land a direct active blow but that shot is mitigated by toughness and armor.

And everything you said here also applies to condition builds outside of melee (most are ranged, Warrior condi builds aren’t, though) and armor. Condition builds also have to land their hits through blinds, blocks, evades, invulnerabilities, etc. To get high damage, they have to sacrifice survivability, but this tradeoff is even more disadvantageous for the condition build because they don’t have the option to kill their target before defense is a problem.

There are also ranged Power builds available for everyone except necro (their ranged power options are Life Blast and that’s it) which negate the “melee” problem. Even most melee builds have gap closers where the gap closer portion can’t be avoided.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

And everything you said here also applies to condition builds outside of melee (most are ranged, Warrior condi builds aren’t, though) and armor. Condition builds also have to land their hits through blinds, blocks, evades, invulnerabilities, etc. To get high damage, they have to sacrifice survivability, but this tradeoff is even more disadvantageous for the condition build because they don’t have the option to kill their target before defense is a problem.

Not really. Runes and traits are responsible for a massive amount of condition application in addition to activated skills. Playing defensive with most condi bunkers applies a staggering amount of passive offensive damage. The act of hitting a condi-bunker means a player is going to eat some conditioning in most cases that cannot be blinded, blocked, etc. Even getting near some is enough to load a player up.

In contrast, direct damage must be manually applied for most of its damage. Also, I would point out again to get similar direct damage output DD builds have to sacrifice survival.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

There are also ranged Power builds available for everyone except necro (their ranged power options are Life Blast and that’s it) which negate the “melee” problem. Even most melee builds have gap closers where the gap closer portion can’t be avoided.

Not really. Most power ranged builds aren’t competitive in skirmish. I can really only think of two ranged DD builds worth playing and both have some substantial downsides. Even the old power AoE skirmisher builds have been nerfed hard. D/D power eles are inferior to their condi cousins in terms of damage output.

Currently the best ranged builds in skirmish are condi classes.

@Straegen.2938
You are pulling statements right out of the air. As a power Mesmer I can tell you, that my ranged power build is more than sufficient in skirmishes. Lately 80% of the players I meet in a 1v1 situation either taste the ground or run from me. Including condition builds.

The claim most of the condition damage works passively is simply not true. Some conditions are applied passively, granted, the major load of damage though must still be applied actively.

I think you are thinking of things like Balthazar runes, who could apply around 6 seconds of burning on heal, if you build for it. However, those 6 seconds of burning would deal around 4k dmg in a time of 6 seconds. And that burning only stacks in duration, meaning you’ll never get a damage burst done with burning alone. I wouldn’t call that massive. It also is short range and predictable. The majority of damage would still have to come from your active attacks.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Jedge.3619:

The main reason condition builds are overpowered is its “fire and forget” once you get the condi bomb or any amount of condis on someone you can move to a different target and you’ll still deal damage – even if your target is running away…you’re still dealing damage.

With direct damage, you have to be active with your skills. However, things like confusion/torment will hurt your ability to kite.

Direct damage is even more “fire and forget”. Once you land your hits, you’re completely done with it. You don’t even have to worry about cleanses, you are literally completely done with those attacks.

The thing is, once you load up a target with a number of conditions, you could have just killed them in the same number of hits from a Power build.

You do know what fire and forget means? I put a ton of condi’s on you and walk away. I’m still doing a lot of damage. Sure you can clear condi’s – but the only counter to condi’s is to cleanse them. Condi’s are also applied just as fast as they’re put on. Also, condi’s ignore armor if you didn’t know that. And you chose to ignore my post about dire gear. The main problem with condi is that they only give up 1 stat to achieve maximum damage. Every other build sacrifices something or another.

For example, take a look at this build I made pretty quickly.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQJAqYl0MpppdPx0J8PNBNRxdNsCzg3hxXshaFAA-TVhPwAN1DsW9HrKBBs/gJlfkCAipRA-w

Now, just from hitting steal, that’s poison and confusion. Which = 5 stacks = 1k damage per action. + Poison. Thief goes invis Another 4.6k damage from the pistol + autos + condi duration. And if he’s good enough he’ll combo sneak attack with shadow strike. Its not just a problem with thieves, I chose to use them as a prime example.

TyPin.9860:

It is funny how some people assume, that it was already established condition builds would be overpowered. I have yet to see the evidence for that. I read condition spam all the time, however, what about direct damage spam? People want condition users to think about, when to apply conditions. However, the good condition users do that, and that is what’s destroying you. Blow your cleanses on the easy mode conditions and of course you will then be spammed with the real deal.

I rarely run a condition build when roaming. But when I do, I run as necromancer and I see, that people simply don’t know how to react to conditions. Blowing cleanses either way way too early or wait just till the last moment, when I just chain fear them, because I have loaded up enough conditions.

And it was then in the Edge of the Mists, the last place where I’d expect that, that I found a Mesmer, who knew how to deal with a condition build. He stayed away, avoided to get close and be hit with all the close range AoE condition applies. Letting me reach him only with staff and therefore keep condition application low. Only once did I manage to get close to him and load him up. What he then simply cleansed. It ended in a stalemate, because my zerg arrived. But that one knew, how it is done.

It is in many cases a learn to play issue. And some players (not even the majority, just some, who seem to scream the loudest) refuse to educate themselves on how to deal with such kind of builds.

\o/ Someone else who understands!
Good to see there are still some people with common sense regarding condition versus power.

Not even going to waste my time trying to reason with the others, will just lol at them when they party me and tell me conditions are OP instead.

sick things about condis when roaming.

Perplexity runes. I will specialize….engineers with perplexity runes. It’s the most kitten thing for me atm in roaming. I have no respect to those engis who running that, cause it’s the most broken runes in the game so far and it’s still in game and it’s still OP for such thing as roaming on engi.

On another hand about food.
+duration condi food is all OK.
-duration condi food is OK for roaming and OP for big groups.

Nerf perpl.
Delete lemongrass from the game, this OP food is used for a long long time already and that’s why dmg condis are not viable in big groups at all (not taking in account classic cleansing by skills and traits)
There will be still Loaf of suffon bread (-20condi duration-20%dmg while stunned, knockbacked, knckdowned) that is balanced.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

TyPin.9860:

It is funny how some people assume, that it was already established condition builds would be overpowered. I have yet to see the evidence for that. I read condition spam all the time, however, what about direct damage spam? People want condition users to think about, when to apply conditions. However, the good condition users do that, and that is what’s destroying you. Blow your cleanses on the easy mode conditions and of course you will then be spammed with the real deal.

I rarely run a condition build when roaming. But when I do, I run as necromancer and I see, that people simply don’t know how to react to conditions. Blowing cleanses either way way too early or wait just till the last moment, when I just chain fear them, because I have loaded up enough conditions.

And it was then in the Edge of the Mists, the last place where I’d expect that, that I found a Mesmer, who knew how to deal with a condition build. He stayed away, avoided to get close and be hit with all the close range AoE condition applies. Letting me reach him only with staff and therefore keep condition application low. Only once did I manage to get close to him and load him up. What he then simply cleansed. It ended in a stalemate, because my zerg arrived. But that one knew, how it is done.

It is in many cases a learn to play issue. And some players (not even the majority, just some, who seem to scream the loudest) refuse to educate themselves on how to deal with such kind of builds.

\o/ Someone else who understands!
Good to see there are still some people with common sense regarding condition versus power.

Not even going to waste my time trying to reason with the others, will just lol at them when they party me and tell me conditions are OP instead.

Well, since you can’t seem to understand… Conditions are fine as it is. The problem with conditions in PvP however, is the numerous types of conditions applied combined with the ease of application (so many conditions are applied on autoattack), that it becomes a brain dead way of playing when you only need 2 armor stats (precision for sigil effects, condition damage – for some builds, you don’t even need precision). Combine this with power builds and the DPS they have to sacrifice if they want any decent survivability at all in a PvP scenario makes for an extremely unbalanced state of affairs.

Conditions are weak on their own. No one disputes this. In zergs, they get cleansed really quickly and do very little damage (though puts a lot of pressure on the melee train) and in PvE, the condition cap means the DPS from pure condi builds is hilariously low compared to power builds. The problem is that in a 1v1 – 3v3 situation, there’s no way to combat the number of conditions applied with the cleanses available.

Those claiming they can eat condi builds any day with a power build – sure, no doubt. I do too with certain classes (lolcleansingirezerkwarrior). The issue is the innate imbalance between the two different damage types and how they can be brought in line with each other so that condition builds can hit harder than a feather in PvE and large zergs and not hit like a freaking steam locomotive in small scale WvW fights.

@Jedge.3619
Your build seems impressive on the first glance (thieve is still a bad example, for their initiative mechanic makes them work different to all other professions, but we’ll go with it for now). However, I have fought such thieves. They follow a standard rotation and are not that big of a threat, if you know, what you’re dealing with. It requires practices, that is shure, but they can be dealt with. I have more trouble against a Hammer Warrior, all defense and all condition cleanse but still dishing out huge amounts of damage than against this kind of thieve to be honest.

For starters, how about dodging sneak attack. Dodging, when he starts unloading, will allow you to avoid most of it’s damage. And I play Mesmer. They have it easier against Mesmers (for some time), because they simply stealth of my Illusions. And the Confusion + Poison from steal is on a 27s cool down. If you can’t deal with that, than you need to practice more.

Also your point with applying conditions and walking away does not make any sense. Why is 1k damage, that takes 5s to fully work it’s magic and can be cleansed, more dangerous than the 1k damage that can be applied instantly? In both cases, I can walk away after the initial attack.

@Hvaran.6327
I feel you. Perplexity Engineers are hard to deal with. But with some practice, you will see that their mechanics are as predictable as many other builds. They are hurting, because they apply many different kinds of conditions, like constant burn and often confusion. Keep your distance. Once you’re close, they can bomb you into the ground.

I had trouble against them myself for a long time. But I learned to deal with them. And especially when they meet my Necromancer, they will get all their conditions back and their cleanses are often weak or non existent.

Jedge.3619:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Jedge.3619:

snip

snip

You do know what fire and forget means? I put a ton of condi’s on you and walk away. I’m still doing a lot of damage.

Warrior uses Eviscerate -> Does 5k damage in one hit (assuming both players aren’t full zerk).

Necro uses Mark of Blood -> Does 5k Bleeding damage over a period of 15 seconds.

Its the same damage.

How is one “fire and forget” while the other isn’t?

Its the same damage.

You “fire” an Eviscerate and then forget about it.

Just because the bleeding happens over a period of 15 seconds, rather than all at once, it is still a single attack. You still have to hit the target with it.

I’ll say it again.

It.

Is.

The.

Same.

Damage.

I don’t really know how to say it any more plainly.

Just because a condition is ticking over a period of time, doesn’t mean it ends up doing any more damage.

Reverence.6915:

… The issue is the innate imbalance between the two different damage types and how they can be brought in line with each other so that condition builds can hit harder than a feather in PvE and large zergs and not hit like a freaking steam locomotive in small scale WvW fights.

Switch to per-source bookkeeping, rather then per-target. Then you can limit the number of stacks per source to reduce 1v1 effectiveness, and at the same time make them more effective in group application. Does put a large computational cost on condition removal

Ragnar.4257:

Jedge.3619:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Jedge.3619:

snip

snip

You do know what fire and forget means? I put a ton of condi’s on you and walk away. I’m still doing a lot of damage.

Warrior uses Eviscerate -> Does 5k damage in one hit (assuming both players aren’t full zerk).

Necro uses Mark of Blood -> Does 5k Bleeding damage over a period of 13 seconds.

Its the same damage.

How is one “fire and forget” while the other isn’t?

Its the same damage.

You “fire” an Eviscerate and then forget about it.

Just because the bleeding happens over a period of 13 seconds, rather than all at once, it is still a single attack. You still have to hit the target with it.

I’ll say it again.

It.

Is.

The.

Same.

Damage.

I don’t really know how to say it any more plainly.

Just because a condition is ticking over a period of time, doesn’t mean it ends up doing any more damage.

Think they are saying it’s fire and forget because the eviscerate will deal that 5k instantly, no way around it (unless you dodge but you can also dodge the mark). As for the bleeding your opponent gets 13 secs to cleanse it off. If they cleanse it as soon as they get it it won’t even do damage to them. But you just said that on your other post.

Reverence.6915:

Well, since you can’t seem to understand… Conditions are fine as it is. The problem with conditions in PvP however, is the numerous types of conditions applied combined with the ease of application (so many conditions are applied on autoattack), that it becomes a brain dead way of playing when you only need 2 armor stats (precision for sigil effects, condition damage – for some builds, you don’t even need precision). Combine this with power builds and the DPS they have to sacrifice if they want any decent survivability at all in a PvP scenario makes for an extremely unbalanced state of affairs.

Conditions are weak on their own. No one disputes this. In zergs, they get cleansed really quickly and do very little damage (though puts a lot of pressure on the melee train) and in PvE, the condition cap means the DPS from pure condi builds is hilariously low compared to power builds. The problem is that in a 1v1 – 3v3 situation, there’s no way to combat the number of conditions applied with the cleanses available.

Those claiming they can eat condi builds any day with a power build – sure, no doubt. I do too with certain classes (lolcleansingirezerkwarrior). The issue is the innate imbalance between the two different damage types and how they can be brought in line with each other so that condition builds can hit harder than a feather in PvE and large zergs and not hit like a freaking steam locomotive in small scale WvW fights.

Valid points although I refuse to believe that condition users are “braindead” because they can apply on auto attack. So, if someone were to auto attack with say, a Warrior using axes, would that NOT be braindead?
I don’t know how to solve the riddle of balancing conditions with power and I don’t think the dev’s do either. The fact of the matter is that condition builds are SLIGHTLY easier to use than power builds and can be devastating with the right timing. I’ve learned to deal with it as I’ve said, I use a 16k vit Ranger with Healing Spring and my pets passive condition removal as my only cleanses, and I still rarely have trouble with condition builds. Learn how to manage them instead of running or complaining on the forums. This is not directed at you by the way, I agree with what you’ve said only disagree with it being any easier than power.

LOLLAVZZI.3580:

Ragnar.4257:

Jedge.3619:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Jedge.3619:

snip

snip

You do know what fire and forget means? I put a ton of condi’s on you and walk away. I’m still doing a lot of damage.

Warrior uses Eviscerate -> Does 5k damage in one hit (assuming both players aren’t full zerk).

Necro uses Mark of Blood -> Does 5k Bleeding damage over a period of 13 seconds.

Its the same damage.

How is one “fire and forget” while the other isn’t?

Its the same damage.

You “fire” an Eviscerate and then forget about it.

Just because the bleeding happens over a period of 13 seconds, rather than all at once, it is still a single attack. You still have to hit the target with it.

I’ll say it again.

It.

Is.

The.

Same.

Damage.

I don’t really know how to say it any more plainly.

Just because a condition is ticking over a period of time, doesn’t mean it ends up doing any more damage.

Think they are saying it’s fire and forget because the eviscerate will deal that 5k instantly, no way around it (unless you dodge but you can also dodge the mark). As for the bleeding your opponent gets 13 secs to cleanse it off. If they cleanse it as soon as they get it it won’t even do damage to them. But you just said that on your other post.

The key word being “still”. If I condi bomb you but I die – are the condi’s still not damaging or affecting your character? You chose AGAIN to ignore what I said again about stat differentiation. Condi gear has defense against power for example with toughness such as rabid or dire. Warriors run dogged march/melandru’s for a reason, because without it they’d be screwed. Condition damage doesn’t also factor in crits. To do that extra damage, there have to be certain conditions to meet such as crit or a lot of power. Condi damage doesn’t need to adhere to the same rules. Conditions, I pull out my lawn chair, throw them on you, and proceed to drink my iced tea. With power, I get off my chair and I have to stick to you to deal the damage. Conditions are passive play. There’s no active element. Condition setups (builds) can bring whatever they want because they have more options when using condition damage.

Sure, condi damage isn’t super efficient in zergs because of all the cleanses. However, in small group fights condi’s are the king of the game.

Can you dodge an eviscerate over and over? Yes
Can you dodge bleeds once they’re on you? No

Dodges are up a lot more often then cleanses. That’s why dodge timing is essential. It takes skill. Cleanses are only up every so often. There’s always a CD for them.

Nymph of Meliai.6739:

every class should be able to defeat every class… that is called balance

if you nerf conditions then how does one kill a warrior?

you get better an learn to dodge

Jedge.3619:

Can you dodge an eviscerate over and over? Yes
Can you dodge bleeds once they’re on you? No

Dodges are up a lot more often then cleanses. That’s why dodge timing is essential. It takes skill. Cleanses are only up every so often. There’s always a CD for them.

Can you dodge the application of bleeds? Yes.

Hmm…

Jedge.3619:

The key word being “still”. If I condi bomb you but I die – are the condi’s still not damaging or affecting your character? You chose AGAIN to ignore what I said again about stat differentiation. Condi gear has defense against power for example with toughness such as rabid or dire. Warriors run dogged march/melandru’s for a reason, because without it they’d be screwed. Condition damage doesn’t also factor in crits. To do that extra damage, there have to be certain conditions to meet such as crit or a lot of power. Condi damage doesn’t need to adhere to the same rules. Conditions, I pull out my lawn chair, throw them on you, and proceed to drink my iced tea. With power, I get off my chair and I have to stick to you to deal the damage. Conditions are passive play. There’s no active element. Condition setups (builds) can bring whatever they want because they have more options when using condition damage.

Sure, condi damage isn’t super efficient in zergs because of all the cleanses. However, in small group fights condi’s are the king of the game.

Can you dodge an eviscerate over and over? Yes
Can you dodge bleeds once they’re on you? No

Dodges are up a lot more often then cleanses. That’s why dodge timing is essential. It takes skill. Cleanses are only up every so often. There’s always a CD for them.

You do realize you can dodge a good deal of condition attacks too right? They impact conditions and power builds equally. You can’t dodge a bleed once it’s on you, but you can certainly dodge it before it gets applied.

Also I don’t think you understand that conditions on an enemy still ticking is equal to a power hit landing. I can’t fathom why people have a hard time with the logic here. If a power attack lands and does 5k damage instantly and a condition lands and will do 5k damage, somehow people think the 5k condition is somehow doing more damage because it is still ticking when you’re dodging, kiting, etc. To make your comparison fair you would have to ask “Can you dodge an eviscerate once it’s landed”, to which the answer is a face-palming no; just like dodging a bleed after it’s applied.

Finally, there are cheese builds on both sides of the fence that make combat a lot easier. Remember the stun warriors? Bunkers doing big damage all while stunning you to death. The thief at launch doing 20k+ bursts instantly to start the fight? How poorly balanced power builds are is a major factor in why bunkering became popular. Conditions at the start were weak compared to power until ANet started handing out more damaging conditions to everyone to attempt to balance it. Low and behold like most things they do, it was the wrong decision. Now we are left with Bunker/power, Bunker/condition, Cheese/condition, and cheese/power as our choices.

Jedge.3619:

The key word being “still”. If I condi bomb you but I die – are the condi’s still not damaging or affecting your character? You chose AGAIN to ignore what I said again about stat differentiation. Condi gear has defense against power for example with toughness such as rabid or dire. Warriors run dogged march/melandru’s for a reason, because without it they’d be screwed. Condition damage doesn’t also factor in crits. To do that extra damage, there have to be certain conditions to meet such as crit or a lot of power. Condi damage doesn’t need to adhere to the same rules. Conditions, I pull out my lawn chair, throw them on you, and proceed to drink my iced tea. With power, I get off my chair and I have to stick to you to deal the damage. Conditions are passive play. There’s no active element. Condition setups (builds) can bring whatever they want because they have more options when using condition damage.

Sure, condi damage isn’t super efficient in zergs because of all the cleanses. However, in small group fights condi’s are the king of the game.

Can you dodge an eviscerate over and over? Yes
Can you dodge bleeds once they’re on you? No

Dodges are up a lot more often then cleanses. That’s why dodge timing is essential. It takes skill. Cleanses are only up every so often. There’s always a CD for them.

You clearly haven’t understood what I’m saying.

Yes, of course, if I load you up with conditions, then I go down, the conditions are still ticking on you.

But.

If I had Eviscerated you, it would still be the same amount of damage. Maybe I would have got you down instead, because I didn’t need to wait for my damage to tick over 15 seconds. In fact, it is actually BETTER to be hit with bleeds than eviscerate, because you have time to deal with the bleeds, time for a cleanse or a heal to come off cooldown.

Scenario 1: I Eviscerate you for 5k, then I go down.

Scenario 2: I put bleeds worth 5k on you, then I go down, and the condition keeps ticking while you take the 5k damage.

The end result is exactly the same. You take 5k damage. The only difference is that the condition damage is delayed by a few seconds.

The way to avoid this damage is exactly the same. You dodge/block/blind it.

You don’t dodge the bleeding once it is on you, that’s kittening stupid. You dodge the application of the bleed.

WTF you talking about “conditions are passive play”. How the hell do you think those conditions got on you in the first place? Sure, some of it is passive from runes, but the vast majority require an attack to be landed. Even sigils require a critical hit.

I’m not arguing the stat differentiation point, which is why I didn’t bring it up.

I just don’t see how you are fine with being eviscerated for 5k, but cry about bleeds for 5k. Yes, they keep happening for several ticks. But it is not passive. The bleeds still have to be applied. You can dodge the application.

I’m not saying conditions are perfectly balanced. The food is clearly unbalanced. However, this stuff “passive play, fire and forget” stuff you’re spouting is complete nonsense.

Just explain to me, just try and explain, right now, the difference between a warrior hitting you with Eviscerate, and a Necro hitting you with Mark of Blood. Explain how they are different. Explain how you end up losing more health from the Necro. Explain how the Necro doesn’t have to hit you with an attack, the bleeds just magically appear on you.

Just. W. T. F.

Ragnar.4257:

You clearly haven’t understood what I’m saying.

Yes, of course, if I load you up with conditions, then I go down, the conditions are still ticking on you.

But.

If I had Eviscerated you, it would still be the same amount of damage. Maybe I would have got you down instead, because I didn’t need to wait for my damage to tick over 15 seconds. In fact, it is actually BETTER to be hit with bleeds than eviscerate, because you have time to deal with the bleeds, time for a cleanse or a heal to come off cooldown.

Scenario 1: I Eviscerate you for 5k, then I go down.

Scenario 2: I put bleeds worth 5k on you, then I go down, and the condition keeps ticking while you take the 5k damage.

The end result is exactly the same. You take 5k damage. The only difference is that the condition damage is delayed by a few seconds.

The way to avoid this damage is exactly the same. You dodge/block/blind it.

You don’t dodge the bleeding once it is on you, that’s kittening stupid. You dodge the application of the bleed.

WTF you talking about “conditions are passive play”. How the hell do you think those conditions got on you in the first place? Sure, some of it is passive from runes, but the vast majority require an attack to be landed. Even sigils require a critical hit.

I’m not arguing the stat differentiation point, which is why I didn’t bring it up.

I just don’t see how you are fine with being eviscerated for 5k, but cry about bleeds for 5k. Yes, they keep happening for several ticks. But it is not passive. The bleeds still have to be applied. You can dodge the application.

I’m not saying conditions are perfectly balanced. The food is clearly unbalanced. However, this stuff “passive play, fire and forget” stuff you’re spouting is complete nonsense.

Just explain to me, just try and explain, right now, the difference between a warrior hitting you with Eviscerate, and a Necro hitting you with Mark of Blood. Explain how they are different. Explain how you end up losing more health from the Necro. Explain how the Necro doesn’t have to hit you with an attack, the bleeds just magically appear on you.

Just. W. T. F.

I share your frustration. I’d dispute the evidence with these people if I didn’t know it would end the same way every time, with them crying that conditions are broken. I’ve run both power and condition many times and the only difference is that when I’m using a condition build people give me plenty of leeway so I can nuke them. Why? I have no idea… If they got in my face and nuked me with direct damage before I could build up enough conditions to hurt them I might be killed. What ever, as long as people don’t know how to counter conditions I just have more easy kills.

Ragnar.4257:

Jedge.3619:

The key word being “still”. If I condi bomb you but I die – are the condi’s still not damaging or affecting your character? You chose AGAIN to ignore what I said again about stat differentiation. Condi gear has defense against power for example with toughness such as rabid or dire. Warriors run dogged march/melandru’s for a reason, because without it they’d be screwed. Condition damage doesn’t also factor in crits. To do that extra damage, there have to be certain conditions to meet such as crit or a lot of power. Condi damage doesn’t need to adhere to the same rules. Conditions, I pull out my lawn chair, throw them on you, and proceed to drink my iced tea. With power, I get off my chair and I have to stick to you to deal the damage. Conditions are passive play. There’s no active element. Condition setups (builds) can bring whatever they want because they have more options when using condition damage.

Sure, condi damage isn’t super efficient in zergs because of all the cleanses. However, in small group fights condi’s are the king of the game.

Can you dodge an eviscerate over and over? Yes
Can you dodge bleeds once they’re on you? No

Dodges are up a lot more often then cleanses. That’s why dodge timing is essential. It takes skill. Cleanses are only up every so often. There’s always a CD for them.

You clearly haven’t understood what I’m saying.

Yes, of course, if I load you up with conditions, then I go down, the conditions are still ticking on you.

But.

If I had Eviscerated you, it would still be the same amount of damage. Maybe I would have got you down instead, because I didn’t need to wait for my damage to tick over 15 seconds. In fact, it is actually BETTER to be hit with bleeds than eviscerate, because you have time to deal with the bleeds, time for a cleanse or a heal to come off cooldown.

Scenario 1: I Eviscerate you for 5k, then I go down.

Scenario 2: I put bleeds worth 5k on you, then I go down, and the condition keeps ticking while you take the 5k damage.

The end result is exactly the same. You take 5k damage. The only difference is that the condition damage is delayed by a few seconds.

The way to avoid this damage is exactly the same. You dodge/block/blind it.

You don’t dodge the bleeding once it is on you, that’s kittening stupid. You dodge the application of the bleed.

WTF you talking about “conditions are passive play”. How the hell do you think those conditions got on you in the first place? Sure, some of it is passive from runes, but the vast majority require an attack to be landed. Even sigils require a critical hit.

I’m not arguing the stat differentiation point, which is why I didn’t bring it up.

I just don’t see how you are fine with being eviscerated for 5k, but cry about bleeds for 5k. Yes, they keep happening for several ticks. But it is not passive. The bleeds still have to be applied. You can dodge the application.

I’m not saying conditions are perfectly balanced. The food is clearly unbalanced. However, this stuff “passive play, fire and forget” stuff you’re spouting is complete nonsense.

Just explain to me, just try and explain, right now, the difference between a warrior hitting you with Eviscerate, and a Necro hitting you with Mark of Blood. Explain how they are different. Explain how you end up losing more health from the Necro. Explain how the Necro doesn’t have to hit you with an attack, the bleeds just magically appear on you.

Just. W. T. F.

You clearly need glasses or learn to understand what passive play is. There’s a reason you didn’t bring stat differentiation up. Because it’s also applied directly with conditions classes or the condition meta. You can build tanky and still deal a lot of damage by really doing nothing.

Once the conditions land, do they ignore armor? Yes. Is power damage affected by armor Yes? Do Condi’s ignore protection? Yes. There’s a distinct reason why there are so many roamers who are using condi cheese builds.

Lets break this down. Eviscerate is affected by a number of things – including, crit-chance, power, armor (opponent) and ferocity. Mark of blood is affected by condi damage and condi duration. To even land a really hard hitting eviscerate all of these stats come into play. Even if you have an extremely high crit chance, the skill might not crit, luck of the draw. If you eviscerate another tanky warrior it won’t hit as hard or one with protection. However, if I mark of blood a target. Does it not still do the same amount of damage over time regardless of armor or power or protection? Yes. That’s the main picture that no one really understands.

Edit; Taken from the wiki
Current conditions are still affected by might, e.g. if you applied bleeding and then gain might, the damage from bleeding increases. If might drops, then so will condition-based damage.

Jedge.3619:

You clearly need glasses or learn to understand what passive play is. There’s a reason you didn’t bring stat differentiation up. Because it’s also applied directly with conditions classes or the condition meta. You can build tanky and still deal a lot of damage by really doing nothing.

Once the conditions land, do they ignore armor? Yes. Is power damage affected by armor Yes? Do Condi’s ignore protection? Yes. There’s a distinct reason why there are so many roamers who are using condi cheese builds.

Lets break this down. Eviscerate is affected by a number of things – including, crit-chance, power, armor (opponent) and ferocity. Mark of blood is affected by condi damage and condi duration. To even land a really hard hitting eviscerate all of these stats come into play. Even if you have an extremely high crit chance, the skill might not crit, luck of the draw. If you eviscerate another tanky warrior it won’t hit as hard or one with protection. However, if I mark of blood a target. Does it not still do the same amount of damage over time regardless of armor or power or protection? Yes. That’s the main picture that no one really understands.

No, I don’t bring stat differentiation up because its a completely different point.

I was arguing against your earlier point that started with this:

The main reason condition builds are overpowered is its “fire and forget” once you get the condi bomb or any amount of condis on someone you can move to a different target and you’ll still deal damage – even if your target is running away…you’re still dealing damage.

You were arguing that because conditions continue to do damage over a period of time, that that somehow makes them more powerful.

I say that that aspect infact doesn’t make conditions more powerful. Different, sure, but it doesn’t magically make them do more damage, simply the fact that they are ticking once applied. They still have to be applied in the first place.

Don’t move the goalposts.

Now, if you want to argue about stats, thats a completely different point. Sure, direct damage is mitigated by armour, while condi damage isn’t. However, condi damage is mitigated by condi cleanses, while direct damage isn’t.
Condition classes require less offensive stats, so can build tankier. However, this is (somewhat) justifiable when you consider that a condi player has to wait for their damage to tick down. If condi classes were required to be as glassy as power builds to achieve the same damage, nobody would play condi, because in that case the power build does the same damage in less time.

IMO the only truly broken part of conditions is the +40% food.

Its hard to belive that there is something wrong with “conditions” when you hear something like this:

- you re playing my hardcounter, still afraid to loose if you dont get the first hit ?
- you were probably playing 0/4/4/0/6 terrormancer with foot in the grave.

- more like faceroll build.

- as i said i dont want to fight a 1 spaming necro build.
- with the most cheese condi setup

- playing condi necro
- …..g unskilled shi .

- oh, the condi meta.

- ohh i see so staff/scepter dagger isnt condi spam

- not fighting a condi spam
- dhuumfire + stability on deathshroud
- i just told you your trait dude, condispam

- gg perplex

- you play a metabuild lol
- build with wins can all

- perpelxity and probably with dire
- does it feel good to play that ?

- this meta sucks
- you play faceroll build, so it’s not problem for you

My build

pierwola.9602:

Its hard to belive that there is something wrong with “conditions” when you hear something like this:

- you re playing my hardcounter, still afraid to loose if you dont get the first hit ?
- you were probably playing 0/4/4/0/6 terrormancer with foot in the grave.

- more like faceroll build.

- as i said i dont want to fight a 1 spaming necro build.
- with the most cheese condi setup

- playing condi necro
- …..g unskilled shi .

- oh, the condi meta.

- ohh i see so staff/scepter dagger isnt condi spam

- not fighting a condi spam
- dhuumfire + stability on deathshroud
- i just told you your trait dude, condispam

- gg perplex

- you play a metabuild lol
- build with wins can all

- perpelxity and probably with dire
- does it feel good to play that ?

- this meta sucks
- you play faceroll build, so it’s not problem for you

My build

ahaha, oh well

i think a lot of these people would shut up if it would be easier to see what actually killed them tho. no idea why there isnt a ‘this is what killed you’-display in wvw like there is in spvp. maybe that would help. because right now these people only notice red symbols popping up and start crying.

Well, i was the one telling the “you were probably playing 0/4/4/0/6 terrormancer with foot in the grave” phrase, but guess what, i asked him for a proper 1v1 after he loaded me up with condis while i was watching duels along some other spectators and was writing.
And he denied that, telling me i will only get a 1v1 if i can tell his build…

Ragnar.4257:

….

Now, if you want to argue about stats, thats a completely different point. Sure, direct damage is mitigated by armour, while condi damage isn’t. However, condi damage is mitigated by condi cleanses, while direct damage isn’t.
Condition classes require less offensive stats, so can build tankier. However, this is (somewhat) justifiable when you consider that a condi player has to wait for their damage to tick down. If condi classes were required to be as glassy as power builds to achieve the same damage, nobody would play condi, because in that case the power build does the same damage in less time.

IMO the only truly broken part of conditions is the +40% food.

imo the food is not the only broken part on conditions .

the condition classes have access in their spam weapon attack skill ( the 1 key ) in both 2 damage attacks ( power + condition) . they can do straight damage + condition damage to their opponent , the same time where the power builds can do only straight attack.

this problem was balanced before the patch because the classes like guardians that have not conditions in their spam key ( 1 ) had access in cleansile bolts to remove the conditions . now they cant and they die from conditions easier.

the same problem is with hammer warriors. they are doing both stuns + damage the same time . if their opponent is not prepared with -stun duration rune/food is an easy killed opponent .

for me the problem will be fixed if they lower the power attack increase rate when condition attack is increasing after one number and vise versa ….

now , as a guardian i see more and more guardians trying to maximize their burning effect with runes/ sigils / foods and traits to have advantage in battle , because they know that the big secret in 1 vs 1 is to someone have big numbers in both main attacks ….

in power and in condition damage same time ….

if someone check all classes traits ( the trait is the really booster in stats consider weapon / armor) _ he will see that the power trait have second stat condition duration …. not the condition damage ( the second main attack ) and not precision or ferocity, the boosters of power.

That is very true Reborn, the scariest opponents to fight are the ones who are making good use of both power and condition damage.

The scariest warriors are the ones who make use of their bleeds and immobilises while keeping up the direct-damage pressure.
The scariest guardians are the ones who are constantly applying blind and burn while also doing direct damage.
The scariest rangers are the ones who have very high poison and burn uptime, while also hitting hard with DD.
The scariest mesmers are the ones who keep up perma-cripple, bleed and burn, while still hitting hard with shatter/phantasm.
The scariest Eles are the ones who still hit hard with direct damage, and are also maintaining very high burn/chill uptime.

I think only necro, thief and engi are not optimal with hybrid builds.

I guess my question to you is; why is that a problem? Should it not be the case that to be the best with your class, you have to fully utilize all the skills and abilities you have, and not just focus on one aspect? Surely juggling your condi and direct damage at the same time is a more skill-full approach than only spamming one type?

my problem in this game as philosophy is that there is not any room for defense style .

the first who attack always is the winner . this logic followed in www and we are see now the whole wvw is in deny .

the same is happening now in 1 vs 1 in this thread . the faster killer is always the winner . this will drive soon the 1 vs 1 in gw2 in deny too.

Drizzy.1268:

Well, i was the one telling the “you were probably playing 0/4/4/0/6 terrormancer with foot in the grave” phrase, but guess what, i asked him for a proper 1v1 after he loaded me up with condis while i was watching duels along some other spectators and was writing.
And he denied that, telling me i will only get a 1v1 if i can tell his build…

You started the fight as fast as i hit you, and it’s not my fault that you wasted berserker stanse on the pillar.
It should not be so hard to tell what build i use, im your hardcounter.

p.s I could not interrupt any duel, i dont roam in Obsidian Sanctum or near the windmill.

Reborn.2934:

imo the food is not the only broken part on conditions .

the condition classes have access in their spam weapon attack skill ( the 1 key ) in both 2 damage attacks ( power + condition) . they can do straight damage + condition damage to their opponent , the same time where the power builds can do only straight attack.

All classes can technically do condition builds and also except for the guardian all classes have some sort of conditions on their auto attacks as well…

Ele
scepter – burning

Warrior
greatsword – vulnerability
rifle – bleed
mace – weakness
sword – bleed and cripple

Thief
dagger – poison
pistol – bleed
sword – cripple & weakness

Mesmer
staff – bleed, burning, & vulnerability
sword – vulnerability

Ranger
shortbow – bleed
sword – cripple

Engineer
pistol – bleed

Necromancer
axe – vulnerability
scepter – bleed & poison

Guardian
none

Reborn.2934:

my problem in this game as philosophy is that there is not any room for defense style .

the first who attack always is the winner . this logic followed in www and we are see now the whole wvw is in deny .

This is just false. My roaming playstyle is a very “bait and attack” sort of playstyle. I literally don’t open on any opponents (most of the time). I will be running along, see a player, and then change my path of travel and see if they will chase. I’ll then lure them away from traffic a tad and even take a few hits from them. Make them think i’m scared or just a zergling, then i’ll turn and fight. I have tons of fights that i’ve won where they attacked first, hell i’ve had tons i’ve won when i started attacking I had 75% health. So this “the first to attack always wins” garbage is just not true.

Ragnar.4257:

I think only necro, thief and engi are not optimal with hybrid builds.

wut.

Is this a serious statement?

lunyboy.8672:

Ragnar.4257:

I think only necro, thief and engi are not optimal with hybrid builds.

wut.

Is this a serious statement?

There is a difference between “optimal” and “viable”.

>>the condition classes have access in their spam weapon attack skill ( the 1 key ) in both 2 damage attacks ( power + condition) . they can do straight damage + condition damage to their opponent , the same time where the power builds can do only straight attack.

Not a logical statement in game terms.

The POWER based classes have access to both of those skills as well in their auto attack. They are not precluded from using it. A P/d power user will still get bleeds from the auto attack.

In fact virtually every attack that adds condition DAMAGE also adds power damage.

A person who uses a pure condition build will see their white power damage drop dramatically. A person who uses a pure power build will see less effect from their own condition type attacks.

When I designed my P/d thief for power his vital shot was getting around 1.4k of damage. His bleeds were still applied and ticking for 5 pulses. A pure condition build will be lucky to get 400 on his white damage auto attack. That 1000 points more damage per shot has to be made up for by condition ticks continually applied.

Now think about that. The condition damage from a bleed is 45 base. Every 100 more condition damage adds 5 more per tick to that single bleed. At 2000 this translates to 98 more damage per tick over someone who has no condition damage.

It is not a problem.

A hybrid is a hybrid. If designing “hybrids” is a problem that somehow must be limited in game terms then build diversity plummets. Hybrids do have advantages and they have disadvantages. If there an issue with a certain hybrid spec, then it not due to “condition damage”. It is due to that specific spec.

Reverence.6915:

Condi needs a serious nerf in WvW. It’s ridiculous that some classes can apply more conditions than you can cleanse, basically killing you in less than 5 seconds. There’s so few ways to counter play that and all of them involve a battle of attrition, which isn’t fun.

It’s not so much the individual conditions themselves, but the combination of several conditions together. Confusion by itself is fine. Torment by itself is fine etc. But Bleed, Confusion, Poison, Vulnerability, Weakness etc etc. all applied at the same time is stupid. Especially with the randomness of cleansing and the ease of re-applying the conditions (seriously needs to be an icd on conditions like confusion and torment, say… 30 seconds, in line with most cleanse skills)

Yeah yeah, this has been talked to death and several threads have been made about it, but even so, we need to keep complaining about this until it gets fixed.

This is so old. Honestly, cry me a river. It isn’t broken, you just are unwilling to change your build to counter them just as they have altered their build to kill whiners like you. Out of all the things in wvw to complain about, you pick the most redundant. Bravo.

Unbalanced nourishment buffs are what hurt balance in WvW more than anything.

It’s Lemongrass Poultry on top of Dogged Marsh and Melandru Runes which make Warriors uncatchable for example. Of course, you can counter by using this food.

Those foods are really unbalanced. They are equivalent to 4.5 trait points. (factoring in their duration and stats) Now, you can say “but WvW is unbalanced!” and you can cite things like Ascended Armor to further prove that point. However, there’s a big difference between a 5% boost to stats and then adding a Nourishment buff that is the equivalent of having almost 5 extra trait points.

Assuming you had a choice in the matter, explain to me why you would ever use any of these other foods? (Cost is not relevant; this is about balance)

• Bowl of Fire Meat Chili
• Omnomberry Cake
• Fancy Truffle Burger

Not only does the 40% duration food do it much better (more than double), but it affects all Conditions.

Nokaru.7831:

Unbalanced nourishment buffs are what hurt balance in WvW more than anything.

It’s Lemongrass Poultry on top of Dogged Marsh and Melandru Runes which make Warriors uncatchable for example. Of course, you can counter by using this food.

Those foods are really unbalanced. They are equivalent to 4.5 trait points. (factoring in their duration and stats) Now, you can say “but WvW is unbalanced!” and you can cite things like Ascended Armor to further prove that point. However, there’s a big difference between a 5% boost to stats and then adding a Nourishment buff that is the equivalent of having almost 5 extra trait points.

Assuming you had a choice in the matter, explain to me why you would ever use any of these other foods? (Cost is not relevant; this is about balance)

• Bowl of Fire Meat Chili
• Omnomberry Cake
• Fancy Truffle Burger

Not only does the 40% duration food do it much better (more than double), but it affects all Conditions.

Remove the -40% food, and then balance that with removing the +40% condition food, or bring them both down to 20%. This seems like a fair compromise.

Said it before and will say it again, without food you can’t get 100% condition duration. Not that anyone NEEDS 100% duration but the point is that without it it makes maximizing duration impossible. If they reduce or remove +duration foods they better add +duration in our traits so we can compensate without consumables.

No one needs +100% duration anything to be balanced (in the pvp aspect of the game at least). Look at spvp, other than str runes since the feature patch, condition builds are highly competitive/desired. And that’s without stupid dire gear or OP food.

Your compensation for the loss of +duration food is the loss of -duration food.

lunyboy.8672:

Remove the -40% food, and then balance that with removing the +40% condition food, or bring them both down to 20%. This seems like a fair compromise.

Wont happen, unfortunately.

A lot of players were calling for this (or a similar nerf) for ages, to make alternatives viable, but Anet doesnt listen. Or doesnt care.

Ragnar.4257:

lunyboy.8672:

Ragnar.4257:

I think only necro, thief and engi are not optimal with hybrid builds.

wut.

Is this a serious statement?

There is a difference between “optimal” and “viable”.

Since there is a noticeable LACK of engies on winning tournament teams, I’d say there are ONLY viable and un-viable builds, and no optimal ones.