Guild Wars 2

>>The main reason condition builds are overpowered is its “fire and forget” once you get the condi bomb or any amount of condis on someone you can move to a different target and you’ll still deal damage – even if your target is running away…you’re still dealing damage.

This is like claiming that people that are paid 1000$$ have an advantage if they get 100 dollars a day for ten days over those that get that 1000$$ all in one shot on the first day.

When asking to explain the reasoning the person making such a case claims “well you get 100 dollars a day for those ten days and on 9 of those 10 days the other guy gets nothing”.

It is still 1000$$.

Condis in small scale fights dominate right now. They may not dominate a single build but they are more powerful than most direct damage builds. At this point a handful of you are just picking parts of someones statement to debate and ignoring the larger context.

TyPin.9860:

@Straegen.2938
You are pulling statements right out of the air. As a power Mesmer I can tell you, that my ranged power build is more than sufficient in skirmishes. Lately 80% of the players I meet in a 1v1 situation either taste the ground or run from me. Including condition builds.

Power mesmers while dangerous are hardly as fearsome as their condi cousins. To get any real damage going they have to give up vitality or toughness making them easy targets for spike damage compared to their bunker alternatives. Simply put a player cannot do good direct damage AND maintain high survival without a gimmick. The power mesmer is pretty light on gimmick unlike the condi mesmer.

TyPin.9860:

The claim most of the condition damage works passively is simply not true. Some conditions are applied passively, granted, the major load of damage though must still be applied actively.

I didn’t actually say most, I said staggering which is true. Runes and traits on current condi builds frequently and passively apply conditions. This is in addition to their active conditioning.

TyPin.9860:

I think you are thinking of things like Balthazar runes, who could apply around 6 seconds of burning on heal, if you build for it. However, those 6 seconds of burning would deal around 4k dmg in a time of 6 seconds.

Perplexity, Sunless, Tormenting, Nightmare, etc. There are lots of runes that pop condis on… WAY more traits that do it. Again this isn’t meant to say players build solely for this damage it is just another example of how players have built bunker classes that when acting defensively apply offensive damage in addition to the activated skills. A direct damage build not only has to cut through the bunker but they often have to manage the passive damage from just attacking these builds.

what people who complain about conditions look like
http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3439319

what someone who does something to counter conditions while remaining fairly tanky and deals decent damage looks like
http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/4031535

this so called condition meta is just funny when you build to counter it while still being able to handle other situations.

Brando.1374:

what people who complain about conditions look like
http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3439319

what someone who does something to counter conditions while remaining fairly tanky and deals decent damage looks like
http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/4031535

this so called condition meta is just funny when you build to counter it while still being able to handle other situations.

You played dekaron?

borrok.9267:

Brando.1374:

what people who complain about conditions look like
http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3439319

what someone who does something to counter conditions while remaining fairly tanky and deals decent damage looks like
http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/4031535

this so called condition meta is just funny when you build to counter it while still being able to handle other situations.

You played dekaron?

Yes I did. I played a mage in dekaron.

Brando.1374:

borrok.9267:

Brando.1374:

what people who complain about conditions look like
http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3439319

what someone who does something to counter conditions while remaining fairly tanky and deals decent damage looks like
http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/4031535

this so called condition meta is just funny when you build to counter it while still being able to handle other situations.

You played dekaron?

Yes I did. I played a mage in dekaron.

VS and BW =D kind of miss that game. Just too many cheaters.

UrMom.4205:

Reborn.2934:

imo the food is not the only broken part on conditions .

the condition classes have access in their spam weapon attack skill ( the 1 key ) in both 2 damage attacks ( power + condition) . they can do straight damage + condition damage to their opponent , the same time where the power builds can do only straight attack.

All classes can technically do condition builds and also except for the guardian all classes have some sort of conditions on their auto attacks as well…

Ele
scepter – burning

Warrior
greatsword – vulnerability
rifle – bleed
mace – weakness
sword – bleed and cripple

Thief
dagger – poison
pistol – bleed
sword – cripple & weakness

Mesmer
staff – bleed, burning, & vulnerability
sword – vulnerability

Ranger
shortbow – bleed
sword – cripple

Engineer
pistol – bleed

Necromancer
axe – vulnerability
scepter – bleed & poison

Guardian
none

Reborn.2934:

my problem in this game as philosophy is that there is not any room for defense style .

the first who attack always is the winner . this logic followed in www and we are see now the whole wvw is in deny .

This is just false. My roaming playstyle is a very “bait and attack” sort of playstyle. I literally don’t open on any opponents (most of the time). I will be running along, see a player, and then change my path of travel and see if they will chase. I’ll then lure them away from traffic a tad and even take a few hits from them. Make them think i’m scared or just a zergling, then i’ll turn and fight. I have tons of fights that i’ve won where they attacked first, hell i’ve had tons i’ve won when i started attacking I had 75% health. So this “the first to attack always wins” garbage is just not true.

as i said before this post that you quoted ….

the problem is that that the defense from conditions is too weak now because they destroyed the cleansing bolts. , plus that the spam shots ( 1 key ) are not apply only conditions but damage the same time.

this is unfair for all other setups ( not only all guardians weapons ) because they are doing condition damage or cc effect + physical damage same time.

has anyone wonder why the melee train is very effective in zerg fights ? because the hammerstun from warriors doing a lot of damage too ……

the same situation we have in 1 vs 1 .most conditions or cc + physical damage = win

if they are not fix this problem the fights will never be balanced in gw2

Please just remove this broken food. Normally food gives like +170 stats, here it is like 2x hoelbark 6th bonus or 4 sigils. This food can give 40% extra dmg and longer cces, while best food gives 10% extra dmg. When I play in pvp I can deal with conditions, but here? With dire set I made build with 3k armor on mesmer and 24k hp.

Rudy.6184:

Please just remove this broken food. Normally food gives like +170 stats, here it is like 2x hoelbark 6th bonus or 4 sigils. This food can give 40% extra dmg and longer cces, while best food gives 10% extra dmg. When I play in pvp I can deal with conditions, but here? With dire set I made build with 3k armor on mesmer and 24k hp.

And a build that at best can’t beat anything that decides to run away from it? Yeah…

Ross Biddle.2367:

Rudy.6184:

Please just remove this broken food. Normally food gives like +170 stats, here it is like 2x hoelbark 6th bonus or 4 sigils. This food can give 40% extra dmg and longer cces, while best food gives 10% extra dmg. When I play in pvp I can deal with conditions, but here? With dire set I made build with 3k armor on mesmer and 24k hp.

And a build that at best can’t beat anything that decides to run away from it? Yeah…

With perplexity and 2k condi dmg? I don’t think it wont.

anet should just remove conditions from the game or at least make conditions as rubbish as they are in pve.

RlyOsim.2497:

anet should just remove conditions from the game or at least make conditions as rubbish as they are in pve.

That’s not a good solution either as it just removes build diversity.

Reverence.6915:

RlyOsim.2497:

anet should just remove conditions from the game or at least make conditions as rubbish as they are in pve.

That’s not a good solution either as it just removes build diversity.

isnt that the goal here?
conditions are of zero relevance in any other aspect of the game, why should they have a use in wvw?

RlyOsim.2497:

Reverence.6915:

RlyOsim.2497:

anet should just remove conditions from the game or at least make conditions as rubbish as they are in pve.

That’s not a good solution either as it just removes build diversity.

isnt that the goal here?
conditions are of zero relevance in any other aspect of the game, why should they have a use in wvw?

Cause if Anet decided to completely nerf conditions then the game would restrict every singe player to power builds making it monotonous and borring

Maybe they should remove roaming. If you try to run alone game would teleport you in zerg. This would fix problems.

I absolutely love that this thread is still going. LOL

I played condi spec and notice that condi need huge boost. Like 100% boost at least. 60 players running below and my nades won’t kill anybody. Berserker staff ele would have killed lot’s of enemies in same situation.

Junkpile.7439:

Maybe they should remove roaming. If you try to run alone game would teleport you in zerg. This would fix problems.

Lol, I can just picture this.

I mostly solo roam in wvw. I am a power build. I love fighting condition builds! No need to nerf condition builds or food. The End

Junkpile.7439:

I played condi spec and notice that condi need huge boost. Like 100% boost at least. 60 players running below and my nades won’t kill anybody. Berserker staff ele would have killed lot’s of enemies in same situation.

This.

Berzerker staff ele OP. They have crap ton of vitality and toughness. Access to mistform, stealth and death shroud

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Said it before and will say it again, without food you can’t get 100% condition duration. Not that anyone NEEDS 100% duration but the point is that without it it makes maximizing duration impossible. If they reduce or remove +duration foods they better add +duration in our traits so we can compensate without consumables.

Traits already have a line with condi duration, so many build can completely ignore it since they get more with condi duration food. Currently both + and – condi d. foods are broken, why should only food negate more than what a condi build gets from whole trait line.

I saw someone’s post earlier in this thread suggesting new gear with condi duration as one of the stats. This would allow maxing condi duration in exchange for survability.

@Straegen.2938:
As long as you can not offer a statistical or experimental analysis, claims Condition Mesmers would surpass Power Mesmers are of no great value. I do not claim to speak for the wide player base or offer any data that is representative to the game mechanic or all including concerning the player base. However, my Power Mesmer build is very effective and my success rate, though only presenting itself as episodic evidence, speaks clearly in favor of a power build to a condition build. I win, estimated, 70% of my 1v1 WvW roaming engagements, defeating or being defeated by power, bunker and condition builds all the same. The sacrifices in Toughness and Vitality are easily made up by my build’s ability to quickly escape from damage spikes, to cleanse conditions effectively and by the sheer constant damage output:

Si Lly’s Roaming Build

It might not be the most elegant build, but it is fairly adapted to my play style and allows me to deal with condition damage builds as well as power builds.

Your further complaints regarding rune effects are rather unsubstantial. While some of those runes are greatly build defining, they are not not dominating the damage output. I have recently experimented with Nightmare Runes and a Necromancer Fear Build. It resulted in a build, that destroyed the unprepared player. However, they would have been destroyed by any condition build judging from their performance. In contrary the prepared player (running condition duration reduction food, equipment and traits and/or knowing how to behave and avoid and even on purpose trigger passive effects on their account), the frequent fear application was rather a nuisance than a real danger to them.

I can in the end only speak from my experience. I had some issues for example with perplexity Engineers. Nevertheless, I realized that they can be defeated and have their own weaknesses themselves. I have not seen so far any conclusive proof, neither in the game, nor in theoretical discussions here in the forum, that Condition Damage is indeed overpowered.

Take a mesmer in your backpack

Rudy.6184:

Please just remove this broken food. Normally food gives like +170 stats, here it is like 2x hoelbark 6th bonus or 4 sigils. This food can give 40% extra dmg and longer cces, while best food gives 10% extra dmg. When I play in pvp I can deal with conditions, but here? With dire set I made build with 3k armor on mesmer and 24k hp.

im going to have to correct you.

40% extra duration does not equal 40% more damage.

lets take this build. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQJArImAAAkkJJaA-TlBZwAf2fw9DA4kegiq/ATJIAlfBAQAmZZGAm5Mn5Mn5MHFkGB-w

without food S2 does 7s of 3 stacks of bleed for a total of 3004, Yes 3004 damage in 7s (so OP)
with food S2 does 9 3/4s bleed (9s) for a total of 3962 damage.

so 40% damage increase to 3004 should equal 1201.6 more damage but in reality we only get 958 extra POSSIBLE damage.

Possible because that extra tick or 2 can be cleared so even then we are not even guaranteed that extra duration.

Sick of thieves when roaming.

TyPin.9860:

As long as you can not offer a statistical or experimental analysis, claims Condition Mesmers would surpass Power Mesmers are of no great value. I do not claim to speak for the wide player base or offer any data that is representative to the game mechanic or all including concerning the player base.

GW2 has nothing that presents stats in this way. The combat log is useless and they do not publish any build/trait stats. I can only go by what I fight against and in this case play as I have a fully kitted level 80 mez.

Condi bunker mesmers are far more prolific and far more dangerous given equal skill. They are ridiculously easy to play actually. I haven’t seen a power mesmer that I noticed in a fight in ages and I do play every day mostly roaming.

TyPin.9860:

Your further complaints regarding rune effects are rather unsubstantial. While some of those runes are greatly build defining, they are not not dominating the damage output.

Again I am not saying Runes and Traits are the dominant damage output what I am saying is that many Condi Bunkers produce a significant amount of passive damage. These builds apply a powerful amount of offensive damage simply from playing defensively thanks to traits and runes.

Again you are focusing on one narrow build in a sea of condi skirmish dominance. I am sure someone out there is an awesome Bear Bow Power Ranger… doesn’t change the lay of the land so to speak. Condis are dominant in small fights with few exceptions.

How about an informal poll:

Name the three most dangerous Class/Builds you fight against in small fight scenarios. Note: Annoying doesn’t count.

In a game where there ways of evading big attks having condi dmg effect do become the best way to do dmg vs realty living ppl. If mobs could roll like players then condi dmg would be king in pve.

That a players play the “best” thing at the time its not about fun for them its about wining just the different in players realty. I am the type that like mostly power dmg with a light of condi so i can mix things up more on ppl during a fight. Just play to what is important to you having fun (losing some times) or wining (all the time).

@Straegen.2938:
You contradict yourself. On one hand you say, that you can not provide or have access to sufficient statistical data and can only speak from your experience. On the other hand you claim that a certain build or damage type dominates the meta. What is it?

Of course I focus on certain builds, because I can only speak of what I have experience with. Theoretically so many builds should/could work, but sometimes in practice they don’t. If we don’t have enough date, we can only argue case by case. One rune set might be overpowered, the other might not be.

Either you provide sufficient data or you argue your position. Claiming “facts” out of the air is not a proper bases for a discussion.

Brando.1374:

Rudy.6184:

Please just remove this broken food. Normally food gives like +170 stats, here it is like 2x hoelbark 6th bonus or 4 sigils. This food can give 40% extra dmg and longer cces, while best food gives 10% extra dmg. When I play in pvp I can deal with conditions, but here? With dire set I made build with 3k armor on mesmer and 24k hp.

im going to have to correct you.

40% extra duration does not equal 40% more damage.

lets take this build. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQJArImAAAkkJJaA-TlBZwAf2fw9DA4kegiq/ATJIAlfBAQAmZZGAm5Mn5Mn5MHFkGB-w

without food S2 does 7s of 3 stacks of bleed for a total of 3004, Yes 3004 damage in 7s (so OP)
with food S2 does 9 3/4s bleed (9s) for a total of 3962 damage.

so 40% damage increase to 3004 should equal 1201.6 more damage but in reality we only get 958 extra POSSIBLE damage.

Possible because that extra tick or 2 can be cleared so even then we are not even guaranteed that extra duration.

Eh. Read again. I wrote that it CAN give 40% dmg not that it DOES give.

I agree about food should be revised. I never use food by the way. The most important in this game is the skill, your skill. I don’t fear any conditions build, actually I fear more the skilled berserkers (direct damage fast killers)

Ragnar.4257:

lunyboy.8672:

Ragnar.4257:

I think only necro, thief and engi are not optimal with hybrid builds.

wut.

Is this a serious statement?

There is a difference between “optimal” and “viable”.

engineer is ridiculously strong with a hybrid build

Have someone fought with triple shout s/s longbow warrior? With power build he’s almost unkillable (healing from shouts for like 2k and healing signet), but make big condi spikes. Couldnt kill him with anyone (power specced) but ele. Ele with 4 in water, ether renewal and lemongrass – I can laugh of any condi dmg, so literally almost all current builds can do nothing. It is so sad, this meta. Take condi or hard counter condi – only way to play. Worst is not the dmg itself, but cc condies, which from just food get 50% duration, so this warrior on burst skill with sword was making 6 sec immobilise + 4,5 sec from longbow and with shout 4,5 sec fear. Of course add cripples and chills from sigil.

Again: Episodic evidence is not very helpful.

Of course there are certain builds, which are hard to beat. That doesn’t mean conditions as a whole are broken. And I can counter your episodic evidence easily with evidence of the same level of my own: I have no trouble against condition specs on my Power Mesmer.

My newest thought…we need a stat (Vitality?/Ferocity?) or even a game element like dodge roll to provide defense (% reduction ala Armor does for Power-based attacks) towards condition damage.

Food balancing is a given. The fact that specific condition food Bowl of Fire Meat Chili versus Rare Veggie Pizza is clearly an oversight on one or the other food type.

TyPin.9860:

@Straegen.2938:
You contradict yourself. On one hand you say, that you can not provide or have access to sufficient statistical data and can only speak from your experience. On the other hand you claim that a certain build or damage type dominates the meta. What is it?

It is the difference between statistical evidence and anecdotal experience. NOBODY has the stats on these forums except maybe the devs so we can toss that out right now. What we do have is a bunch of anecdotal evidence. As I play more than an average player, I roam more than most players, I have been in WvW since the start and I haven’t missed a day of playing in almost a year and a half I do have some expertise on this subject.

The vast majority of competent or better roamers are condi based. The hardest to fight are condi based. My strongest classes/builds while roaming are condi based and yes I do have all classes at 80 and fully geared with ascended weapons and rings (in some cases fully ascended). The only roamer I play right now that isn’t condi based, a warrior with a ridiculous amount of condi cleanse.

TyPin.9860:

Either you provide sufficient data or you argue your position. Claiming “facts” out of the air is not a proper bases for a discussion.

Pot meet kettle. Neither of us can claim “fact” since neither of us can present enough data to prove our points. All we can do is debate the larger point of whether condis are OP in the current WvW small fight setting. My experience says yes it is. Condi particularly condi bunkers are currently stronger than their direct damage counterparts by a good margin with few exceptions. This thread and several like back that up to some extent.

How is this thread still alive? Condi duration food is broken. /thread

TyPin.9860:

Again: Episodic evidence is not very helpful.

Of course there are certain builds, which are hard to beat. That doesn’t mean conditions as a whole are broken. And I can counter your episodic evidence easily with evidence of the same level of my own: I have no trouble against condition specs on my Power Mesmer.

Episodic? Numbers doesnt count? What you wont call episodic? I have to type all condi builds that are broken because of food? OK. Lastly i encountered a thief who 7 ppl couldnt kill, because of tankiness (i locked him down 3 times myself) and still managed to take one kill before he died.

Also every roamer makes chain immobilise if there is more then one. Almost every condi spec has immobilise – thief can spam likely 6 sec, warrior 10, another mesmer, engi etc, all buffed by condi duration. Fear – 4,5 sec is low? It is an hard CC (with stun you will have only 30% increase by sigil), cond duration works on it… Warrior can hit with new torment before old ended, thief makes caltrops in stealth making constant pressure even invisible. Engi just kites and kill. My point is about the food, maybe gear – in pvp i can deal with condi spec nicely, but here? Yes I can – lemongrass.

2 types of food exist now. I could tell also how lemongrass ridiculusly synergies on warrior making him immunue (maybe not immunue – 98% duration reduction xd) to slow, chill, cripple immobilise. I made build on warrior when i can run circles around the enemy laughing at him, then killing and running more.

@Straegen.2938
So when you say there would be a condi meta, than you actually mean, that you personally play mostly condi and the competitive players you meet mostly play condi. Funny thing is that your personal experience, that you presented as all around general knowledge (you said it would be the meta), is contradicting my personal experience.

On this forum there are as many people saying condies are OP as people are saying condies aren’t OP. Additionally game forums have the tendency to be “populated” by players who are not contend with the game or certain game issues. That creates a bias towards complaining to things and is not a proper representation.

But you ignored the actually most important point, that would be important for this forum. We can not offer statistical data (although many players speak like they’d have access to such) so we need to deduct from our experience and argue our issues. General statements are of no help, if you don’t point out the actual issues. Like you say that so many runes offer passive condition application, without being specific. I have partially argued 2 of those rune sets (Nightmare and Balthazar) to be fine. Although I hoped for a discussion about those examples or even of examples of your own, you simply move on and say, I would only focus on a small part. You even didn’t argue why this additional “passive” damage is so strong or wrong in the game. And how or if this applies to all the different rune sets. You simply stated that this passive additional damage wouldn’t be acceptable to you.

If you’d say that certain condition setups are very strong in a 1v1 setup, then I would agree, although we still didn’t talk about the reasons for that. Please be concrete and specify your issues and stop putting out platitudes.

@Rudy.6184:
I addressed your issues partially in the part above. You were in previous post not very precise. You complained about one player with a condi setup being fought by many and concluded from that condition specs would be OP. That is as anecdotal or episodic as it can be and is not very much helpful talking about the meta game play or the game balance.

Now you were talking about the +40% food buff. I had talked with babazhook.6805 about that issue here, however it was not really concluded.

Judging from my gut I would actually agree with you about the food buff. I’d also prefer that the general condition duration bonus should be reduced to maybe 15% and that specific condition food buffs could be available for specific conditions. Here we could even differentiate between CC condition and damage conditions:

• Very specific: Like +40% burning duration on one food, but only +25% Chill duration on another. Question is, how counter food would look like here.
• Less specific: Like +40% damaging condition duration on one food, but only +25% CC condition duration on another. That would make counter food easier to design: duration reduction specific to the 2 different condi types accordingly.

Those numbers are pulled right out of the air of course just to illustrate the general idea. But splitting the duration buff up would not strengthen all conditions. A condition player would have to decide if they want to go for more CC or more damage. And you would still have the chance to buff all of your conditions, but less effective of course than the specific buffs.

condi builds in generall are just stupid, we all knew it gonna be even worse once they nerf direct dmg builds to the groud (lol @ ferocity changes)…

anet has thing for condis in pvp enviroment and it doesn’t seem to change for past year at least

apprently devs think that fighting a unkillable tank mindlessly spamming aoe/condis and doing absurd dmg+CC is fun and exciting and offers healthy gameplay…./sarcasm off

if i play direct dmg build, i have to sacrifice survival for dmg (warriors aside, different topic), condi builds don’t

if i miss/misplay my burst skills, i might lose fight

cond build? who cares just spam more crap… the only thing that might be curcial is maybe signet of spite but really that is about it

Straegen.2938:

How about an informal poll:

Name the three most dangerous Class/Builds you fight against in small fight scenarios. Note: Annoying doesn’t count.

A bit late:

1) Thief. Most of the time I can’t see them. The rest of the time they’re 2-shotting me in the back and throwing 20 stacks of bleeding on me. I think all classes should have a trait or skill that allows them to strip stealth from an enemy, much like boon stripping.

2) Necro. And this may just be me, and it’s just some of them. I’ve never played one, so I don’t know how they really work, aside from ending up dead after a few seconds with most I come across with way more conditions on me than I can cleanse before my HP is zero.

3) None. I’m fine with everything else. Mesmers used to bother me until I learned to avoid their clones and always focus on the real one. It took me a while to figure out how they were killing me so well, until I leveled one to 80. Once I knew how it all worked, fights got much more interesting if not easier. Engineers can be a bit tricky, but I’ve only come across a few that I didn’t really get. And one was glitching all over the place from lag that he was kitten near impossible to hit, so I’m not sure that counts.

And I know you said no to annoying, but for me, thieves that want to duel. Yeah. The most boring effing duels imaginable, because inevitably when they get low on health they’ll stealth out to heal and then run back. If I see one that wants to fight, I just run by them. One killed me in just a regular-old-ran-into-each-other fight (which lasted way too long), and then was waiting for me at the same spot. He bowed. I kept running to the spot I was already heading for. He didn’t follow. I didn’t care.