Guild Wars 2

The thing about thief con removal trait is it’s still based on hitting someone. Hide in shadows doesn’t really matter because it already removes most stuff. So blinding powder and refuge are the only con removals on demand without hitting someone. Refuge opens you up to a counter (luck based on dodge timing) so you are looking at blinding powder (which many don’t take) as the only sure thing along with Hide in Shadows.

People who block/immune/dodge C&D also stop the thief from blinding/healing/con-remove. It’s a huge part of fighting one. I love running into a trolly thief in the open field. Wait for them to use their heal then I mass invis everyone after second and you have trolly thief just either standing there or a refuge pops I get to try to punt him from. Then they eat a nice little burst combo and it’s time to either be bad and die or shadow-step and try to run away.

Basically the entire shadow arts line is only super erserm if people allow you melee them or fight near mobs.

jkctmc.8754:

Stiv.1820:

jportell.2197:

jkctmc.8754:

Roysten.3456:

jportell.2197:

1) Anet should remove one of these perks from being stealthed
a) Condi removal for every three seconds while stealth (combined
with heals it competes with ele’s condi removal)
b) Regen while stealthed… yeah w/o healing power it isn’t all that great…
But it is still one of the little things that is causing big problems
c) 50% faster while stealthed… Seriously aside from stealth bombers when was the
last time sneaky=fast? How many sneaky fast navy seals are there? I know its
a game and all but seriously this is just a ridiculous trait that costs too little
d) stealth SHOULD break on a block… Invuln/evades yeah i’ll give that to you
but you are still hitting something when its blocked whether it be that shield/
off hand sword its basically guaranteeing a free HUGE hit to thieves when they
stay stealthed and their first attack was blocked… Not really fair to someone
that was not being a baddie/noob and could predict the attack change.
If someone blocks my shatters on my Mesmer I don’t get an immediate free
redo on the burst and no other class does when their attacks are blocked
except thieves
e) finally Caltrops and choking gas should break stealth… I don’t care how you want
to justify it, these skills do damage and therefore should suffer the revealed debuff…
If a Mesmer pops a shatter from stealth they get revealed… Why? The clones blew up
not the Mesmer they shouldn’t be revealed! But they are, same concept applies to
thieves. This would also make thieves consider things like taking the trait that drops
caltrops on a dodge… It would make them choose something either/stealth heavy or
mobility…
My 2 cents… on things that would help with thieves (erm,,, stealth) in WvW. Any one of these minor changes would prolly make a lot more people happy and the only thieves that would be ticked would be the ones that can’t adapt… Every class has had to adapt to nerfs to some of their core mechanics (generalization I know of a few specific ones.) These changes would not break the thief class in any way

D and e fine.
A, b and c are traits. You can’t take them all regen is a 30 pt trait. This isn’t free stealth goodies, the condi removal possibly could take an internal cd though.

I’m not sure I would be on board with an internal cd on condition removal. One of the benefits to conditions, and their major strengths is that you can reapply them without any penalty.

Keep in mind that even with the internal c/d on that you would still have pretty good condi removal compared to say mesmers (who get none unless they trait or use utilities on obscenely long cds) but as I said any one or combo of those should be reasonable.

Mesmers have work around. Food that clears con 100% on 15sec reflect heal. Generosity on GS and newly buffed x/Torch traited for CD reduction and con removal. Together with just… being a Mesmer… I hardly notice conditions.

The problem are in cooldowns. I can reapply conditions between the 16 second (Guardian), and the long 30 second cooldowns. I can apply a lot of Bleeds, Burning, and Poison between those cooldowns. Not to mention the other conditions. The Theif is the only class that doesn’t suffer from the 66% reuse on skills from Chill that the other classes do. That’s why I try to have as close to a permanent uptime on Chill that I can on any of my classes, and the primary reason I dominate Elementalists.

What initiative regen are you running/do you have the +3 initiative trait? jw

Stiv.1820:

The thing about thief con removal trait is it’s still based on hitting someone. Hide in shadows doesn’t really matter because it already removes most stuff. So blinding powder and refuge are the only con removals on demand without hitting someone. Refuge opens you up to a counter (luck based on dodge timing) so you are looking at blinding powder (which many don’t take) as the only sure thing along with Hide in Shadows.

People who block/immune/dodge C&D also stop the thief from blinding/healing/con-remove. It’s a huge part of fighting one. I love running into a trolly thief in the open field. Wait for them to use their heal then I mass invis everyone after second and you have trolly thief just either standing there or a refuge pops I get to try to punt him from. Then they eat a nice little burst combo and it’s time to either be bad and die or shadow-step and try to run away.

Basically the entire shadow arts line is only super erserm if people allow you melee them or fight near mobs.

Don’t forget combo fields that give stealth.

jportell.2197:

Roysten.3456:

jportell.2197:

1) Anet should remove one of these perks from being stealthed
a) Condi removal for every three seconds while stealth (combined
with heals it competes with ele’s condi removal)
b) Regen while stealthed… yeah w/o healing power it isn’t all that great…
But it is still one of the little things that is causing big problems
c) 50% faster while stealthed… Seriously aside from stealth bombers when was the
last time sneaky=fast? How many sneaky fast navy seals are there? I know its
a game and all but seriously this is just a ridiculous trait that costs too little
d) stealth SHOULD break on a block… Invuln/evades yeah i’ll give that to you
but you are still hitting something when its blocked whether it be that shield/
off hand sword its basically guaranteeing a free HUGE hit to thieves when they
stay stealthed and their first attack was blocked… Not really fair to someone
that was not being a baddie/noob and could predict the attack change.
If someone blocks my shatters on my Mesmer I don’t get an immediate free
redo on the burst and no other class does when their attacks are blocked
except thieves
e) finally Caltrops and choking gas should break stealth… I don’t care how you want
to justify it, these skills do damage and therefore should suffer the revealed debuff…
If a Mesmer pops a shatter from stealth they get revealed… Why? The clones blew up
not the Mesmer they shouldn’t be revealed! But they are, same concept applies to
thieves. This would also make thieves consider things like taking the trait that drops
caltrops on a dodge… It would make them choose something either/stealth heavy or
mobility…
My 2 cents… on things that would help with thieves (erm,,, stealth) in WvW. Any one of these minor changes would prolly make a lot more people happy and the only thieves that would be ticked would be the ones that can’t adapt… Every class has had to adapt to nerfs to some of their core mechanics (generalization I know of a few specific ones.) These changes would not break the thief class in any way

D and e fine.
A, b and c are traits. You can’t take them all regen is a 30 pt trait. This isn’t free stealth goodies, the condi removal possibly could take an internal cd though.

Keep in mind when I refer to caltrops I refer to the skill and the trait where thy drop on dodge…. I know A,b,c are traits and they can’t all get them at once but they can get a combo at once… but thank you for your response. and Hopefully others are as constructive.

Just to say you can have the traited caltrops on dodge, its a horrible trait. Either that or force all thieves to have it with its I have dodged over here claxon and marker

This goes for those who think stealth needs a nerf, aren’t you confusing Deathmatch with WvW? I keep reading all these posts and maybe I’m wrong but what I understand is that killing your opponent is the most important thing to do in WvW? am I right?

ArcTheFallen.7682:

jkctmc.8754:

Stiv.1820:

jportell.2197:

jkctmc.8754:

Roysten.3456:

jportell.2197:

1) Anet should remove one of these perks from being stealthed
a) Condi removal for every three seconds while stealth (combined
with heals it competes with ele’s condi removal)
b) Regen while stealthed… yeah w/o healing power it isn’t all that great…
But it is still one of the little things that is causing big problems
c) 50% faster while stealthed… Seriously aside from stealth bombers when was the
last time sneaky=fast? How many sneaky fast navy seals are there? I know its
a game and all but seriously this is just a ridiculous trait that costs too little
d) stealth SHOULD break on a block… Invuln/evades yeah i’ll give that to you
but you are still hitting something when its blocked whether it be that shield/
off hand sword its basically guaranteeing a free HUGE hit to thieves when they
stay stealthed and their first attack was blocked… Not really fair to someone
that was not being a baddie/noob and could predict the attack change.
If someone blocks my shatters on my Mesmer I don’t get an immediate free
redo on the burst and no other class does when their attacks are blocked
except thieves
e) finally Caltrops and choking gas should break stealth… I don’t care how you want
to justify it, these skills do damage and therefore should suffer the revealed debuff…
If a Mesmer pops a shatter from stealth they get revealed… Why? The clones blew up
not the Mesmer they shouldn’t be revealed! But they are, same concept applies to
thieves. This would also make thieves consider things like taking the trait that drops
caltrops on a dodge… It would make them choose something either/stealth heavy or
mobility…
My 2 cents… on things that would help with thieves (erm,,, stealth) in WvW. Any one of these minor changes would prolly make a lot more people happy and the only thieves that would be ticked would be the ones that can’t adapt… Every class has had to adapt to nerfs to some of their core mechanics (generalization I know of a few specific ones.) These changes would not break the thief class in any way

D and e fine.
A, b and c are traits. You can’t take them all regen is a 30 pt trait. This isn’t free stealth goodies, the condi removal possibly could take an internal cd though.

I’m not sure I would be on board with an internal cd on condition removal. One of the benefits to conditions, and their major strengths is that you can reapply them without any penalty.

Keep in mind that even with the internal c/d on that you would still have pretty good condi removal compared to say mesmers (who get none unless they trait or use utilities on obscenely long cds) but as I said any one or combo of those should be reasonable.

Mesmers have work around. Food that clears con 100% on 15sec reflect heal. Generosity on GS and newly buffed x/Torch traited for CD reduction and con removal. Together with just… being a Mesmer… I hardly notice conditions.

The problem are in cooldowns. I can reapply conditions between the 16 second (Guardian), and the long 30 second cooldowns. I can apply a lot of Bleeds, Burning, and Poison between those cooldowns. Not to mention the other conditions. The Theif is the only class that doesn’t suffer from the 66% reuse on skills from Chill that the other classes do. That’s why I try to have as close to a permanent uptime on Chill that I can on any of my classes, and the primary reason I dominate Elementalists.

What initiative regen are you running/do you have the +3 initiative trait? jw

I will have to go look at my build when I get home. Been playing my wifes Necromancer the last two days, after taking a week off the game while waiting for the March patch.

My Thief is not a condition Thief, when I’m talking about reapplying conditions, I’m talking about my other classes, and their builds. My Thief is a crit/bunker build that utilizes Omnom Pie, and other crit Sigils to be more effective.

hammer.9721:

heres why people have such a hard times with thieves in wvw

they dont know how to spec
they dont dodge
they dont auto face
they stand still

my necro lost to 1 thief out of over a hundred 1v1 fights and im a average player that does everything on my little list but most others who play this game just want to pew pew then run to the boards when they die.

now for all those saying removing stealth wont hurt thieves grab yourself a p/d and dont use stealth in fights and come back here and let people know how you did or better yet record it.

1. No proof of this. There are good builds out there, so unlikely.

2. People know how to dodge and when. We do it. Unfortunately there’s a limit to how many times we can dodge. A thief can just wait because the victim can not see the thief.

3. Lol. How do we auto face a perma stealthed target? Further, where do I aoe when I cannot see the target.

4. Not proven. I never stand still. Even when no one is attacking me, so this is a kittenumption on your part.

So you make unfounded l2p claims as a way to defend op stealth. We are not advocating stealth removal. We think that permastealth is a broken mechanic,

jkctmc.8754:

Art.9820:

Xsorus.2507:

Suralin.3947:

Xsorus.2507:

Suralin.3947:

Lol @ thread.

If a thief is stealthing a lot, not just P/D, they will almost always have 30 in Shadow Arts and trait for Remove Condition every 3s and Heal in Stealth. They also will most likely have Hide In Shadows (if they don’t, then great!), Blinding Powder, and SR or SS.

Step 1: Thief runs at you. Dodge.
Step 2: Crowd Control – knockdowns/immobilize/chill/cripple. Thief stealths, removes condition, heals a little. Dodge.
Step 3: Stack on the AoE. Thief stealths more, removes condition, heals. Run around.
Step 4: Dodge/Block/Drop more AoE/Kite
Step 5: Repeat Step 2 until thief is no longer around or on the ground and dying.

The thief will eventually burn through all of his utility stealths and will be forced to use CnD, which doesn’t really do a lot of damage anyways (and if he’s hitting you, then he’s in range of anything you’ve got).

This is pretty much how you fight any thief, no matter the build (heck, this is how I fight D/D Eles). P/D thieves that CnD and then 1 are giving themselves the revealed debuff each time, so they are just as targettable even if they haven’t rendered. BS thieves need to land that first blow. Otherwise, they’ll run. And DD / SB or DD/PP condition thieves like me, well, you’re not going to have an easy time with me due to Death Blossom’s evade giving me an extra 2-3 dodges, but time your skills right and you’ll take me down just the same or I’ll run away.

Heals a little?

I’m over 600 HP/S while stealthed… If you run no healing power it’s Heals a Little.. if you run Healing Power though…

To get that, you’re sacrificing Pwr, Vit, Toughness, or Precision. You can only stay stealthed for so long, even at 3s, you’re getting 1500 HP. If you have no Vit or Toughness, straight DPS is all that’s needed with Conditions limiting your ability to heal (such as Poisons and Bleeds), and if you have no Pwr or Precision, all I’d have to do is kite. And since I main as Thief, it’s made even easier for me.

You have to Sacrifice something, In this case Power/precision/toughness (i could get toughness, and I will eventually, but Its not as good as Vit on a thief because we lack Protection)

you can see my HP in the videos, I’m not lacking on HP.

And since most of my damage is from conditions it’s not a huge deal to sacrifice power/precision

When you were playing your thief, did you contribute with something else other than zerg kills?

He’s 1 person, fighting 10-30 people. Imagine if there were five of him, or hell, ten of him.

When I run a five man Thief team, the stuff we pull of is absolutely insane, and now that crossed swords won’t show up for five people, holy mother did they just hand us our cake, and allowed us to eat it as well.

I totally missed your post sorry! yes you might be right but how many 5 thieves grps have you seen that wipe out a zerg? honest question lol

jkctmc.8754:

Stiv.1820:

Mesmers have work around. Food that clears con 100% on 15sec reflect heal. Generosity on GS and newly buffed x/Torch traited for CD reduction and con removal. Together with just… being a Mesmer… I hardly notice conditions.

The problem are in cooldowns. I can reapply conditions between the 16 second (Guardian), and the long 30 second cooldowns. I can apply a lot of Bleeds, Burning, and Poison between those cooldowns. Not to mention the other conditions. The Theif is the only class that doesn’t suffer from the 66% reuse on skills from Chill that the other classes do. That’s why I try to have as close to a permanent uptime on Chill that I can on any of my classes, and the primary reason I dominate Elementalists.

Not sure what class you are playing? Guard? The good Ele’s I’ve fought all have like 80% condition duration reduction anyway so none of that stuff matters :P I think Engies can pull off 80%+ as well.

Sure chill CD reduction doesn’t hurt a thief but same goes for a root on an Ele. It never sticks (it’s suppose to be their big counter). Just part of profession dynamics imo.

jkctmc.8754:

Stiv.1820:

The thing about thief con removal trait is it’s still based on hitting someone. Hide in shadows doesn’t really matter because it already removes most stuff. So blinding powder and refuge are the only con removals on demand without hitting someone. Refuge opens you up to a counter (luck based on dodge timing) so you are looking at blinding powder (which many don’t take) as the only sure thing along with Hide in Shadows.

People who block/immune/dodge C&D also stop the thief from blinding/healing/con-remove. It’s a huge part of fighting one. I love running into a trolly thief in the open field. Wait for them to use their heal then I mass invis everyone after second and you have trolly thief just either standing there or a refuge pops I get to try to punt him from. Then they eat a nice little burst combo and it’s time to either be bad and die or shadow-step and try to run away.

Basically the entire shadow arts line is only super erserm if people allow you melee them or fight near mobs.

Don’t forget combo fields that give stealth.

Oh yea d/p. I just go stand near those. Get hit by a Heartseeker at full health and revel them. Teleport near it to really surprise them.

Stiv.1820:

jkctmc.8754:

Stiv.1820:

Mesmers have work around. Food that clears con 100% on 15sec reflect heal. Generosity on GS and newly buffed x/Torch traited for CD reduction and con removal. Together with just… being a Mesmer… I hardly notice conditions.

The problem are in cooldowns. I can reapply conditions between the 16 second (Guardian), and the long 30 second cooldowns. I can apply a lot of Bleeds, Burning, and Poison between those cooldowns. Not to mention the other conditions. The Theif is the only class that doesn’t suffer from the 66% reuse on skills from Chill that the other classes do. That’s why I try to have as close to a permanent uptime on Chill that I can on any of my classes, and the primary reason I dominate Elementalists.

Not sure what class you are playing? Guard? The good Ele’s I’ve fought all have like 80% condition duration reduction anyway so none of that stuff matters :P I think Engies can pull off 80%+ as well.

Sure chill CD reduction doesn’t hurt a thief but same goes for a root on an Ele. It never sticks (it’s suppose to be their big counter). Just part of profession dynamics imo.

Don’t root the Elementalist, you Cripple, and Chill them. And there seems to be a hard cap to how far you can reduce the duration on conditions, because I don’t see them fall off as fast as you’re suggesting. My Guardian is a Meditation build designed around removing Conditions, and even I still see conditions a lot more than you’re saying.

See my sig for the classes I play.

ArcTheFallen.7682:

jportell.2197:

Okay… lets take a step back errrrbody calm down… Flame wars are fun guys… Okay @Xsorus Why do you think thief needs a nerf? I believe that is your standpoint? (errr well stealth but we all see where this thread has gone.)
@Others What reasons do you have for stealth not needing some sort of nerf? I mean even the smallest type such as the reduction damage of backstab… Not by a lot… but at least giving players SOME chance to react… Or what about making it so that caltrops and poison field break stealth… As for damage breaking it no… I know that would REALLY really break the thief class… But other things… We’re all civil here right? We can come to something… My proposal to deal with some of the perks that thieves get while stealthed…. anyone or combo of them

1) Anet should remove one of these perks from being stealthed
a) Condi removal for every three seconds while stealth (combined
with heals it competes with ele’s condi removal)
b) Regen while stealthed… yeah w/o healing power it isn’t all that great…
But it is still one of the little things that is causing big problems
c) 50% faster while stealthed… Seriously aside from stealth bombers when was the
last time sneaky=fast? How many sneaky fast navy seals are there? I know its
a game and all but seriously this is just a ridiculous trait that costs too little
d) stealth SHOULD break on a block… Invuln/evades yeah i’ll give that to you
but you are still hitting something when its blocked whether it be that shield/
off hand sword its basically guaranteeing a free HUGE hit to thieves when they
stay stealthed and their first attack was blocked… Not really fair to someone
that was not being a baddie/noob and could predict the attack change.
If someone blocks my shatters on my Mesmer I don’t get an immediate free
redo on the burst and no other class does when their attacks are blocked
except thieves
e) finally Caltrops and choking gas should break stealth… I don’t care how you want
to justify it, these skills do damage and therefore should suffer the revealed debuff…
If a Mesmer pops a shatter from stealth they get revealed… Why? The clones blew up
not the Mesmer they shouldn’t be revealed! But they are, same concept applies to
thieves. This would also make thieves consider things like taking the trait that drops
caltrops on a dodge… It would make them choose something either/stealth heavy or
mobility…
My 2 cents… on things that would help with thieves (erm,,, stealth) in WvW. Any one of these minor changes would prolly make a lot more people happy and the only thieves that would be ticked would be the ones that can’t adapt… Every class has had to adapt to nerfs to some of their core mechanics (generalization I know of a few specific ones.) These changes would not break the thief class in any way

The problem is, the people who want stealth for thieves nerfed will only settle with stealth being nerfed immensely without agreeing to any compromises or following up on any suggestions. They just want nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf. And don’t even know specifically what they want. They just want Anet to nerf nerf nerf. Come on guys, you can use your heads, pose a solution instead of a whine and insult.

Completely untrue. I advocate a small change to one stealth timer, test and see if this prevents permastealthing. Yet the thief apologists act like the NRA and scream that any nerf destroys the class.

Stiv.1820:

jkctmc.8754:

Stiv.1820:

The thing about thief con removal trait is it’s still based on hitting someone. Hide in shadows doesn’t really matter because it already removes most stuff. So blinding powder and refuge are the only con removals on demand without hitting someone. Refuge opens you up to a counter (luck based on dodge timing) so you are looking at blinding powder (which many don’t take) as the only sure thing along with Hide in Shadows.

People who block/immune/dodge C&D also stop the thief from blinding/healing/con-remove. It’s a huge part of fighting one. I love running into a trolly thief in the open field. Wait for them to use their heal then I mass invis everyone after second and you have trolly thief just either standing there or a refuge pops I get to try to punt him from. Then they eat a nice little burst combo and it’s time to either be bad and die or shadow-step and try to run away.

Basically the entire shadow arts line is only super erserm if people allow you melee them or fight near mobs.

Don’t forget combo fields that give stealth.

Oh yea d/p. I just go stand near those. Get hit by a Heartseeker at full health and revel them. Teleport near it to really surprise them.

The cool thing about Heartseeker, I can target something far away, and jump that direction, and not hit you.

Don’t forget the shortbow also has a blast finisher, that creates an Area Stealth. Works great with a utility I bet you havn’t considered.

Columba.9730:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

jportell.2197:

Okay… lets take a step back errrrbody calm down… Flame wars are fun guys… Okay @Xsorus Why do you think thief needs a nerf? I believe that is your standpoint? (errr well stealth but we all see where this thread has gone.)
@Others What reasons do you have for stealth not needing some sort of nerf? I mean even the smallest type such as the reduction damage of backstab… Not by a lot… but at least giving players SOME chance to react… Or what about making it so that caltrops and poison field break stealth… As for damage breaking it no… I know that would REALLY really break the thief class… But other things… We’re all civil here right? We can come to something… My proposal to deal with some of the perks that thieves get while stealthed…. anyone or combo of them

1) Anet should remove one of these perks from being stealthed
a) Condi removal for every three seconds while stealth (combined
with heals it competes with ele’s condi removal)
b) Regen while stealthed… yeah w/o healing power it isn’t all that great…
But it is still one of the little things that is causing big problems
c) 50% faster while stealthed… Seriously aside from stealth bombers when was the
last time sneaky=fast? How many sneaky fast navy seals are there? I know its
a game and all but seriously this is just a ridiculous trait that costs too little
d) stealth SHOULD break on a block… Invuln/evades yeah i’ll give that to you
but you are still hitting something when its blocked whether it be that shield/
off hand sword its basically guaranteeing a free HUGE hit to thieves when they
stay stealthed and their first attack was blocked… Not really fair to someone
that was not being a baddie/noob and could predict the attack change.
If someone blocks my shatters on my Mesmer I don’t get an immediate free
redo on the burst and no other class does when their attacks are blocked
except thieves
e) finally Caltrops and choking gas should break stealth… I don’t care how you want
to justify it, these skills do damage and therefore should suffer the revealed debuff…
If a Mesmer pops a shatter from stealth they get revealed… Why? The clones blew up
not the Mesmer they shouldn’t be revealed! But they are, same concept applies to
thieves. This would also make thieves consider things like taking the trait that drops
caltrops on a dodge… It would make them choose something either/stealth heavy or
mobility…
My 2 cents… on things that would help with thieves (erm,,, stealth) in WvW. Any one of these minor changes would prolly make a lot more people happy and the only thieves that would be ticked would be the ones that can’t adapt… Every class has had to adapt to nerfs to some of their core mechanics (generalization I know of a few specific ones.) These changes would not break the thief class in any way

The problem is, the people who want stealth for thieves nerfed will only settle with stealth being nerfed immensely without agreeing to any compromises or following up on any suggestions. They just want nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf. And don’t even know specifically what they want. They just want Anet to nerf nerf nerf. Come on guys, you can use your heads, pose a solution instead of a whine and insult.

Completely untrue. I advocate a small change to one stealth timer, test and see if this prevents permastealthing. Yet the thief apologists act like the NRA and scream that any nerf destroys the class.

Nah, not completely. I actually agree to some of the viewpoints of people with suggestions, I just haven’t seen one by Xsorus except his agreement with phasing, which I’d have to go back and see what phasing even is.

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Columba.9730:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

jportell.2197:

Okay… lets take a step back errrrbody calm down… Flame wars are fun guys… Okay @Xsorus Why do you think thief needs a nerf? I believe that is your standpoint? (errr well stealth but we all see where this thread has gone.)
@Others What reasons do you have for stealth not needing some sort of nerf? I mean even the smallest type such as the reduction damage of backstab… Not by a lot… but at least giving players SOME chance to react… Or what about making it so that caltrops and poison field break stealth… As for damage breaking it no… I know that would REALLY really break the thief class… But other things… We’re all civil here right? We can come to something… My proposal to deal with some of the perks that thieves get while stealthed…. anyone or combo of them

1) Anet should remove one of these perks from being stealthed
a) Condi removal for every three seconds while stealth (combined
with heals it competes with ele’s condi removal)
b) Regen while stealthed… yeah w/o healing power it isn’t all that great…
But it is still one of the little things that is causing big problems
c) 50% faster while stealthed… Seriously aside from stealth bombers when was the
last time sneaky=fast? How many sneaky fast navy seals are there? I know its
a game and all but seriously this is just a ridiculous trait that costs too little
d) stealth SHOULD break on a block… Invuln/evades yeah i’ll give that to you
but you are still hitting something when its blocked whether it be that shield/
off hand sword its basically guaranteeing a free HUGE hit to thieves when they
stay stealthed and their first attack was blocked… Not really fair to someone
that was not being a baddie/noob and could predict the attack change.
If someone blocks my shatters on my Mesmer I don’t get an immediate free
redo on the burst and no other class does when their attacks are blocked
except thieves
e) finally Caltrops and choking gas should break stealth… I don’t care how you want
to justify it, these skills do damage and therefore should suffer the revealed debuff…
If a Mesmer pops a shatter from stealth they get revealed… Why? The clones blew up
not the Mesmer they shouldn’t be revealed! But they are, same concept applies to
thieves. This would also make thieves consider things like taking the trait that drops
caltrops on a dodge… It would make them choose something either/stealth heavy or
mobility…
My 2 cents… on things that would help with thieves (erm,,, stealth) in WvW. Any one of these minor changes would prolly make a lot more people happy and the only thieves that would be ticked would be the ones that can’t adapt… Every class has had to adapt to nerfs to some of their core mechanics (generalization I know of a few specific ones.) These changes would not break the thief class in any way

The problem is, the people who want stealth for thieves nerfed will only settle with stealth being nerfed immensely without agreeing to any compromises or following up on any suggestions. They just want nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf. And don’t even know specifically what they want. They just want Anet to nerf nerf nerf. Come on guys, you can use your heads, pose a solution instead of a whine and insult.

Completely untrue. I advocate a small change to one stealth timer, test and see if this prevents permastealthing. Yet the thief apologists act like the NRA and scream that any nerf destroys the class.

Nah, not completely. I actually agree to some of the viewpoints of people with suggestions, I just haven’t seen one by Xsorus except his agreement with phasing, which I’d have to go back and see what phasing even is.

I thought Xsorus was the one who suggested Caltrops and Choking Gas should break stealth?

jkctmc.8754:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Columba.9730:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

jportell.2197:

Okay… lets take a step back errrrbody calm down… Flame wars are fun guys… Okay @Xsorus Why do you think thief needs a nerf? I believe that is your standpoint? (errr well stealth but we all see where this thread has gone.)
@Others What reasons do you have for stealth not needing some sort of nerf? I mean even the smallest type such as the reduction damage of backstab… Not by a lot… but at least giving players SOME chance to react… Or what about making it so that caltrops and poison field break stealth… As for damage breaking it no… I know that would REALLY really break the thief class… But other things… We’re all civil here right? We can come to something… My proposal to deal with some of the perks that thieves get while stealthed…. anyone or combo of them

1) Anet should remove one of these perks from being stealthed
a) Condi removal for every three seconds while stealth (combined
with heals it competes with ele’s condi removal)
b) Regen while stealthed… yeah w/o healing power it isn’t all that great…
But it is still one of the little things that is causing big problems
c) 50% faster while stealthed… Seriously aside from stealth bombers when was the
last time sneaky=fast? How many sneaky fast navy seals are there? I know its
a game and all but seriously this is just a ridiculous trait that costs too little
d) stealth SHOULD break on a block… Invuln/evades yeah i’ll give that to you
but you are still hitting something when its blocked whether it be that shield/
off hand sword its basically guaranteeing a free HUGE hit to thieves when they
stay stealthed and their first attack was blocked… Not really fair to someone
that was not being a baddie/noob and could predict the attack change.
If someone blocks my shatters on my Mesmer I don’t get an immediate free
redo on the burst and no other class does when their attacks are blocked
except thieves
e) finally Caltrops and choking gas should break stealth… I don’t care how you want
to justify it, these skills do damage and therefore should suffer the revealed debuff…
If a Mesmer pops a shatter from stealth they get revealed… Why? The clones blew up
not the Mesmer they shouldn’t be revealed! But they are, same concept applies to
thieves. This would also make thieves consider things like taking the trait that drops
caltrops on a dodge… It would make them choose something either/stealth heavy or
mobility…
My 2 cents… on things that would help with thieves (erm,,, stealth) in WvW. Any one of these minor changes would prolly make a lot more people happy and the only thieves that would be ticked would be the ones that can’t adapt… Every class has had to adapt to nerfs to some of their core mechanics (generalization I know of a few specific ones.) These changes would not break the thief class in any way

The problem is, the people who want stealth for thieves nerfed will only settle with stealth being nerfed immensely without agreeing to any compromises or following up on any suggestions. They just want nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf. And don’t even know specifically what they want. They just want Anet to nerf nerf nerf. Come on guys, you can use your heads, pose a solution instead of a whine and insult.

Completely untrue. I advocate a small change to one stealth timer, test and see if this prevents permastealthing. Yet the thief apologists act like the NRA and scream that any nerf destroys the class.

Nah, not completely. I actually agree to some of the viewpoints of people with suggestions, I just haven’t seen one by Xsorus except his agreement with phasing, which I’d have to go back and see what phasing even is.

I thought Xsorus was the one who suggested Caltrops and Choking Gas should break stealth?

I’d have to look back, maybe he suggested indirectly when he mentioned that you could do that, but not sure. Then yes, I agree with his point there. I don’t believe you should be able to use anything in stealth without revealing yourself.

Actually, what do you guys think of a more obvious in/out of stealth animation. Like a puff of smoke when you come out of stealth? Not sure if that’d help.

jkctmc.8754:

Stiv.1820:

jkctmc.8754:

Stiv.1820:

The thing about thief con removal trait is it’s still based on hitting someone. Hide in shadows doesn’t really matter because it already removes most stuff. So blinding powder and refuge are the only con removals on demand without hitting someone. Refuge opens you up to a counter (luck based on dodge timing) so you are looking at blinding powder (which many don’t take) as the only sure thing along with Hide in Shadows.

People who block/immune/dodge C&D also stop the thief from blinding/healing/con-remove. It’s a huge part of fighting one. I love running into a trolly thief in the open field. Wait for them to use their heal then I mass invis everyone after second and you have trolly thief just either standing there or a refuge pops I get to try to punt him from. Then they eat a nice little burst combo and it’s time to either be bad and die or shadow-step and try to run away.

Basically the entire shadow arts line is only super erserm if people allow you melee them or fight near mobs.

Don’t forget combo fields that give stealth.

Oh yea d/p. I just go stand near those. Get hit by a Heartseeker at full health and revel them. Teleport near it to really surprise them.

The cool thing about Heartseeker, I can target something far away, and jump that direction, and not hit you.

Don’t forget the shortbow also has a blast finisher, that creates an Area Stealth. Works great with a utility I bet you havn’t considered.

You can target anyone you want, you will still hit that person that you land near, not the one you have on target.

This has been said before several times, but stealth is not an issue at all in sPvP. The only reason it is a significant issue in WvW is culling (soon to be removed) and Power/Crit stacking. Put a soft cap on Power/Crit and suddenly super builds that have insane damage out of nowhere no longer exist.

Straegen.2938:

This has been said before several times, but stealth is not an issue at all in sPvP. The only reason it is a significant issue in WvW is culling (soon to be removed) and Power/Crit stacking. Put a soft cap on Power/Crit and suddenly super builds that have insane damage out of nowhere no longer exist.

Aren’t thief skills nerfed in Spvp as well? I seem to recall that.

Karolis.4261:

jkctmc.8754:

Stiv.1820:

jkctmc.8754:

Stiv.1820:

The thing about thief con removal trait is it’s still based on hitting someone. Hide in shadows doesn’t really matter because it already removes most stuff. So blinding powder and refuge are the only con removals on demand without hitting someone. Refuge opens you up to a counter (luck based on dodge timing) so you are looking at blinding powder (which many don’t take) as the only sure thing along with Hide in Shadows.

People who block/immune/dodge C&D also stop the thief from blinding/healing/con-remove. It’s a huge part of fighting one. I love running into a trolly thief in the open field. Wait for them to use their heal then I mass invis everyone after second and you have trolly thief just either standing there or a refuge pops I get to try to punt him from. Then they eat a nice little burst combo and it’s time to either be bad and die or shadow-step and try to run away.

Basically the entire shadow arts line is only super erserm if people allow you melee them or fight near mobs.

Don’t forget combo fields that give stealth.

Oh yea d/p. I just go stand near those. Get hit by a Heartseeker at full health and revel them. Teleport near it to really surprise them.

The cool thing about Heartseeker, I can target something far away, and jump that direction, and not hit you.

Don’t forget the shortbow also has a blast finisher, that creates an Area Stealth. Works great with a utility I bet you havn’t considered.

You can target anyone you want, you will still hit that person that you land near, not the one you have on target.

You completely missed the point. You do not have to jump near someone. Do you guys really not know how this works, and how effective it is?

jkctmc.8754:

Stiv.1820:

jkctmc.8754:

Stiv.1820:

Mesmers have work around. Food that clears con 100% on 15sec reflect heal. Generosity on GS and newly buffed x/Torch traited for CD reduction and con removal. Together with just… being a Mesmer… I hardly notice conditions.

The problem are in cooldowns. I can reapply conditions between the 16 second (Guardian), and the long 30 second cooldowns. I can apply a lot of Bleeds, Burning, and Poison between those cooldowns. Not to mention the other conditions. The Theif is the only class that doesn’t suffer from the 66% reuse on skills from Chill that the other classes do. That’s why I try to have as close to a permanent uptime on Chill that I can on any of my classes, and the primary reason I dominate Elementalists.

Not sure what class you are playing? Guard? The good Ele’s I’ve fought all have like 80% condition duration reduction anyway so none of that stuff matters :P I think Engies can pull off 80%+ as well.

Sure chill CD reduction doesn’t hurt a thief but same goes for a root on an Ele. It never sticks (it’s suppose to be their big counter). Just part of profession dynamics imo.

Don’t root the Elementalist, you Cripple, and Chill them. And there seems to be a hard cap to how far you can reduce the duration on conditions, because I don’t see them fall off as fast as you’re suggesting. My Guardian is a Meditation build designed around removing Conditions, and even I still see conditions a lot more than you’re saying.

See my sig for the classes I play.

Maybe they aren’t popular in your matchup. Anyone can get 65% reduction using food (40%) and Melandru runes (25%) then Eles can spec Geomancer’s Freedom which is another 33% reduction on Cripple, Chill and Root. They literally just run right through those conditions.

Straegen.2938:

This has been said before several times, but stealth is not an issue at all in sPvP. The only reason it is a significant issue in WvW is culling (soon to be removed) and Power/Crit stacking. Put a soft cap on Power/Crit and suddenly super builds that have insane damage out of nowhere no longer exist.

This is not sPvP, it is WvW.

In sPvP it is 100% about control points where stealth becomes a hinderance, so you do not want to stealth. Because of this, it lessens the desire to stealth, therefore in a round about way, stealth is greatly nerfed because you don’t want to stealth for fear of losing ground on the control points.

Stiv.1820:

jkctmc.8754:

Stiv.1820:

jkctmc.8754:

Stiv.1820:

Mesmers have work around. Food that clears con 100% on 15sec reflect heal. Generosity on GS and newly buffed x/Torch traited for CD reduction and con removal. Together with just… being a Mesmer… I hardly notice conditions.

The problem are in cooldowns. I can reapply conditions between the 16 second (Guardian), and the long 30 second cooldowns. I can apply a lot of Bleeds, Burning, and Poison between those cooldowns. Not to mention the other conditions. The Theif is the only class that doesn’t suffer from the 66% reuse on skills from Chill that the other classes do. That’s why I try to have as close to a permanent uptime on Chill that I can on any of my classes, and the primary reason I dominate Elementalists.

Not sure what class you are playing? Guard? The good Ele’s I’ve fought all have like 80% condition duration reduction anyway so none of that stuff matters :P I think Engies can pull off 80%+ as well.

Sure chill CD reduction doesn’t hurt a thief but same goes for a root on an Ele. It never sticks (it’s suppose to be their big counter). Just part of profession dynamics imo.

Don’t root the Elementalist, you Cripple, and Chill them. And there seems to be a hard cap to how far you can reduce the duration on conditions, because I don’t see them fall off as fast as you’re suggesting. My Guardian is a Meditation build designed around removing Conditions, and even I still see conditions a lot more than you’re saying.

See my sig for the classes I play.

Maybe they aren’t popular in your matchup. Anyone can get 65% reduction using food (40%) and Melandru runes (25%) then Eles can spec Geomancer’s Freedom which is another 33% reduction on Cripple, Chill and Root. They literally just run right through those conditions.

I’ll run some tests, but I’m pretty sure there is a hard cap to condition reduction.

But can we drop the nonsense. Your Elementalists are no better than mine, and mine are no better than yours. Everyone practically uses the same builds listed on the forums nowadays.

Straegen.2938:

This has been said before several times, but stealth is not an issue at all in sPvP. The only reason it is a significant issue in WvW is culling (soon to be removed) and Power/Crit stacking. Put a soft cap on Power/Crit and suddenly super builds that have insane damage out of nowhere no longer exist.

The reason why it’s not an issue in sPvP is because you can’t cap points while stealthed, which leads to poor objective control with a roaming class — not exactly the best combo.

In WvW, the ability to cap points is not important as there’s almost always going to be other people with you when you’re taking an objective. Killing and disruption is a lot more important in WvW and you are free to stealth as often as you like.

As to Power/crit stacking, thief damage is not and has never been the problem. Thief damage is fine as is. The problem is stealth granting ridiculous survivability and sustain.

jkctmc.8754:

Stiv.1820:

jkctmc.8754:

Stiv.1820:

jkctmc.8754:

Stiv.1820:

Mesmers have work around. Food that clears con 100% on 15sec reflect heal. Generosity on GS and newly buffed x/Torch traited for CD reduction and con removal. Together with just… being a Mesmer… I hardly notice conditions.

The problem are in cooldowns. I can reapply conditions between the 16 second (Guardian), and the long 30 second cooldowns. I can apply a lot of Bleeds, Burning, and Poison between those cooldowns. Not to mention the other conditions. The Theif is the only class that doesn’t suffer from the 66% reuse on skills from Chill that the other classes do. That’s why I try to have as close to a permanent uptime on Chill that I can on any of my classes, and the primary reason I dominate Elementalists.

Not sure what class you are playing? Guard? The good Ele’s I’ve fought all have like 80% condition duration reduction anyway so none of that stuff matters :P I think Engies can pull off 80%+ as well.

Sure chill CD reduction doesn’t hurt a thief but same goes for a root on an Ele. It never sticks (it’s suppose to be their big counter). Just part of profession dynamics imo.

Don’t root the Elementalist, you Cripple, and Chill them. And there seems to be a hard cap to how far you can reduce the duration on conditions, because I don’t see them fall off as fast as you’re suggesting. My Guardian is a Meditation build designed around removing Conditions, and even I still see conditions a lot more than you’re saying.

See my sig for the classes I play.

Maybe they aren’t popular in your matchup. Anyone can get 65% reduction using food (40%) and Melandru runes (25%) then Eles can spec Geomancer’s Freedom which is another 33% reduction on Cripple, Chill and Root. They literally just run right through those conditions.

I’ll run some tests, but I’m pretty sure there is a hard cap to condition reduction.

But can we drop the nonsense. Your Elementalists are no better than mine, and mine are no better than yours. Everyone practically uses the same builds listed on the forums nowadays.

I guess it can just be one or two players that makes it noticeable. One engie and a couple ele in particular I can think of. All had -40% con duration food going but I know for sure nothing would stick to them for even a second. So that’s my anecdotal.. let me know the results of your test, I can’t find any info anywhere about a cap.

When it comes to thieves in WvW, they are what is likely the best class at executing a losing strategy. That strategy being lonewolf PvP in a large scale gametype.

If you want to move around the field alone, quickly, and potentially pick off stragglers, I can’t think of anything better than a thief. This does have some niche value in WvW for things like murdering dolyaks at low personnel costs, but if even a disproportionate fraction of a server is running these lonewolf spec thieves, they will get absolutely destroyed in WvW by the server running a tight, unstoppable ball of team specs like hammer warriors, guardians, eles, necros, etc. that support each other and play together. If folks ditch the narcissistic attitudes, they would realize that thieves are actually a very limited value class when it comes to winning WvW. The game is called Guild Wars for a reason.

Pretty much the only opportunity a thief has for a useful role in that winning, tightly-knit teamplay is just for on-demand blast finishers with shortbow. (No permastealth or burst combos here.) Bring two shortbow thieves: role filled. Everyone else re-roll a more useful class or be a scout/dolyak-killer (better yet, let pugs do it) and miss out on all mega-bag drops.

Daeqar.8965:

When it comes to thieves in WvW, they are what is likely the best class at executing a losing strategy. That strategy being lonewolf PvP in a large scale gametype.

If you want to move around the field alone, quickly, and potentially pick off stragglers, I can’t think of anything better than a thief. This does have some niche value in WvW for things like murdering dolyaks at low personnel costs, but if even a disproportionate fraction of a server is running these lonewolf spec thieves, they will get absolutely destroyed in WvW by the server running a tight, unstoppable ball of team specs like hammer warriors, guardians, eles, necros, etc. that support each other and play together. If folks ditch the narcissistic attitudes, they would realize that thieves are actually a very limited value class when it comes to winning WvW. The game is called Guild Wars for a reason.

Pretty much the only opportunity a thief has for a useful role in that winning, tightly-knit teamplay is just for on-demand blast finishers with shortbow. (No permastealth or burst combos here.) Bring two shortbow thieves: role filled. Everyone else re-roll a more useful class or be a scout/dolyak-killer (better yet, let pugs do it) and miss out on all mega-bag drops.

Hit the nail on the head but people will come with a counter argument that nobody cares about the objectives in WvW and everyone is just looking for small team fights/1vX.

We need to balance WvW around 1vX and 5v5’s and solo roamers that is what matters in WvW according to this thread.

Daeqar.8965:

When it comes to thieves in WvW, they are what is likely the best class at executing a losing strategy. That strategy being lonewolf PvP in a large scale gametype.

If you want to move around the field alone, quickly, and potentially pick off stragglers, I can’t think of anything better than a thief. This does have some niche value in WvW for things like murdering dolyaks at low personnel costs, but if even a disproportionate fraction of a server is running these lonewolf spec thieves, they will get absolutely destroyed in WvW by the server running a tight, unstoppable ball of team specs like hammer warriors, guardians, eles, necros, etc. that support each other and play together. If folks ditch the narcissistic attitudes, they would realize that thieves are actually a very limited value class when it comes to winning WvW. The game is called Guild Wars for a reason.

Pretty much the only opportunity a thief has for a useful role in that winning, tightly-knit teamplay is just for on-demand blast finishers with shortbow. (No permastealth or burst combos here.) Bring two shortbow thieves: role filled. Everyone else re-roll a more useful class or be a scout/dolyak-killer (better yet, let pugs do it) and miss out on all mega-bag drops.

Whether you like it or not, there are times when non thief classes have no choice but to run solo – returning to a battle, for example. I don’t think it’s reasonable to conclude that one class should be the best solo. It’s particularly problematic when it’s impossible to avoid that class. Perhaps what thieves bring to large battles should be improved.

Why is it i keep seeing the same people talking about balancing the game around Solo Roamers or 1v1….

When it’s not the issue.

The ability to survive against LARGE NUMBERS as a solo class and escape 99% of the time is the issue.

Short of the Elementalist (which can still be killed easily) No other class comes close to the Thief in this regard…..Its so easy to escape on the thief that the class lacks very little skill to be successful at…It being amazing in 1v1’s and small mans is just a by product of that.

I also find it quite amusing that you guys keep bringing up objectives, While ignoring that one class can bog down large numbers of people and still escape just fine because there is no risk involved with the class when doing this.

Eliyahu.1467:

The reason why it’s not an issue in sPvP is because you can’t cap points while stealthed, which leads to poor objective control with a roaming class — not exactly the best combo.

A player cannot cap points in stealth now. The control point doesn’t tick while a player is in stealth and a player cannot damage anything while in stealth.

Eliyahu.1467:

As to Power/crit stacking, thief damage is not and has never been the problem. Thief damage is fine as is. The problem is stealth granting ridiculous survivability and sustain.

Huh? The biggest complaint on the forums about thieves is they hit like a truck and often cannot be seen when it happens. No class should be able to kill another in 1-2 seconds and certainly while never appearing. Culling addresses part of this but GC thieves stacking bloodlust and popping signets with 6k + mugs and 12k+ stabs is a real problem for a lot of players. This isn’t a problem in sPvP because of the soft caps. I am not saying WvW players should have the same soft cap but no single player should be two or three shotting other similarly geared/leveled players.

Daeqar.8965:

When it comes to thieves in WvW, they are what is likely the best class at executing a losing strategy. That strategy being lonewolf PvP in a large scale gametype.

If you want to move around the field alone, quickly, and potentially pick off stragglers, I can’t think of anything better than a thief. This does have some niche value in WvW for things like murdering dolyaks at low personnel costs, but if even a disproportionate fraction of a server is running these lonewolf spec thieves, they will get absolutely destroyed in WvW by the server running a tight, unstoppable ball of team specs like hammer warriors, guardians, eles, necros, etc. that support each other and play together. If folks ditch the narcissistic attitudes, they would realize that thieves are actually a very limited value class when it comes to winning WvW. The game is called Guild Wars for a reason.

Pretty much the only opportunity a thief has for a useful role in that winning, tightly-knit teamplay is just for on-demand blast finishers with shortbow. (No permastealth or burst combos here.) Bring two shortbow thieves: role filled. Everyone else re-roll a more useful class or be a scout/dolyak-killer (better yet, let pugs do it) and miss out on all mega-bag drops.

This kind of post annoys me, The reason it annoys me is because this person seems to think that Class balance is playing a part in winning the Matchups “well thieves blow for zerging around in groups with team specs, No one ever does that…You want these classes if you want to win” While completely ignoring the fact that Your team of Guardians/Elementalist/Necro’s ect ect aren’t what is winning the match up for you.

Coverage…..that is what wins the Matchup’s, not classes, not your amazing skill in a group, Coverage does… The Team with the greatest population for the longest period of time wins..

It doesn’t matter if you can kick the opposing sides kitten all day long, if you don’t have Coverage for the 2nd half of the day, You’re going to lose the matchup….

Every Server you seen that’s Green Right now is winning not by some sort of magical skill on their part, But because they have more people then the Red and Blue team.

Columba.9730:

Whether you like it or not, there are times when non thief classes have no choice but to run solo – returning to a battle, for example. I don’t think it’s reasonable to conclude that one class should be the best solo. It’s particularly problematic when it’s impossible to avoid that class. Perhaps what thieves bring to large battles should be improved.

Thief’s not the best 1v1 class, it just easily produces builds that can get around the map alone.

Every other class can make 1v1 thief-killer builds if they want to prioritize running around the map alone…just like the annoying thief who makes their 1v1 gank build prioritizes running around the map alone. Both are similarly useless for winning WvW. Why argue about builds and playstyles that have no impact on WvW outcome?

oZii.2864:

Daeqar.8965:

When it comes to thieves in WvW, they are what is likely the best class at executing a losing strategy. That strategy being lonewolf PvP in a large scale gametype.

If you want to move around the field alone, quickly, and potentially pick off stragglers, I can’t think of anything better than a thief. This does have some niche value in WvW for things like murdering dolyaks at low personnel costs, but if even a disproportionate fraction of a server is running these lonewolf spec thieves, they will get absolutely destroyed in WvW by the server running a tight, unstoppable ball of team specs like hammer warriors, guardians, eles, necros, etc. that support each other and play together. If folks ditch the narcissistic attitudes, they would realize that thieves are actually a very limited value class when it comes to winning WvW. The game is called Guild Wars for a reason.

Pretty much the only opportunity a thief has for a useful role in that winning, tightly-knit teamplay is just for on-demand blast finishers with shortbow. (No permastealth or burst combos here.) Bring two shortbow thieves: role filled. Everyone else re-roll a more useful class or be a scout/dolyak-killer (better yet, let pugs do it) and miss out on all mega-bag drops.

Hit the nail on the head but people will come with a counter argument that nobody cares about the objectives in WvW and everyone is just looking for small team fights/1vX.

We need to balance WvW around 1vX and 5v5’s and solo roamers that is what matters in WvW according to this thread.

You’re being pretty thick. You have to balance WvW around all engagements, large and small.

You say people who are advocating for a stealth nerf are only pushing for balancing around a small scale. That is false. Nerfing stealth will only serve to help balance small engagements and will do nothing to unbalance large engagements. There is absolutely no con to nerfing stealth other then you and yours won’t be able to endlessly troll other players anymore.

You have all but acknowledged that stealth is overpowered in small engagements, but you have yet to present one legitimate reason why it should not be changed. The argument that WvW should be balanced exclusively around zerg v zerg with no consideration for small engagements is absolutely absurd. If one does not affect the other you can balance them separately, making your argument completely and utterly irrelevant.

oZii.2864:

Daeqar.8965:

When it comes to thieves in WvW, they are what is likely the best class at executing a losing strategy. That strategy being lonewolf PvP in a large scale gametype.

If you want to move around the field alone, quickly, and potentially pick off stragglers, I can’t think of anything better than a thief. This does have some niche value in WvW for things like murdering dolyaks at low personnel costs, but if even a disproportionate fraction of a server is running these lonewolf spec thieves, they will get absolutely destroyed in WvW by the server running a tight, unstoppable ball of team specs like hammer warriors, guardians, eles, necros, etc. that support each other and play together. If folks ditch the narcissistic attitudes, they would realize that thieves are actually a very limited value class when it comes to winning WvW. The game is called Guild Wars for a reason.

Pretty much the only opportunity a thief has for a useful role in that winning, tightly-knit teamplay is just for on-demand blast finishers with shortbow. (No permastealth or burst combos here.) Bring two shortbow thieves: role filled. Everyone else re-roll a more useful class or be a scout/dolyak-killer (better yet, let pugs do it) and miss out on all mega-bag drops.

Hit the nail on the head but people will come with a counter argument that nobody cares about the objectives in WvW and everyone is just looking for small team fights/1vX.

We need to balance WvW around 1vX and 5v5’s and solo roamers that is what matters in WvW according to this thread.

You can take any camp with 2 people, and prior to the patch you could open any wall, or gate with four people, now you can do it with up to 25 people. You guys really think you need a Zerg to accomplish anything in WvW? O.O

jkctmc.8754:

oZii.2864:

Daeqar.8965:

When it comes to thieves in WvW, they are what is likely the best class at executing a losing strategy. That strategy being lonewolf PvP in a large scale gametype.

If you want to move around the field alone, quickly, and potentially pick off stragglers, I can’t think of anything better than a thief. This does have some niche value in WvW for things like murdering dolyaks at low personnel costs, but if even a disproportionate fraction of a server is running these lonewolf spec thieves, they will get absolutely destroyed in WvW by the server running a tight, unstoppable ball of team specs like hammer warriors, guardians, eles, necros, etc. that support each other and play together. If folks ditch the narcissistic attitudes, they would realize that thieves are actually a very limited value class when it comes to winning WvW. The game is called Guild Wars for a reason.

Pretty much the only opportunity a thief has for a useful role in that winning, tightly-knit teamplay is just for on-demand blast finishers with shortbow. (No permastealth or burst combos here.) Bring two shortbow thieves: role filled. Everyone else re-roll a more useful class or be a scout/dolyak-killer (better yet, let pugs do it) and miss out on all mega-bag drops.

Hit the nail on the head but people will come with a counter argument that nobody cares about the objectives in WvW and everyone is just looking for small team fights/1vX.

We need to balance WvW around 1vX and 5v5’s and solo roamers that is what matters in WvW according to this thread.

You can take any camp with 2 people, and prior to the patch you could open any wall, or gate with four people, now you can do it with up to 25 people. You guys really think you need a Zerg to accomplish anything in WvW? O.O

I can solo any camp in WvW with my thief or ranger..I’m sure other classes don’t have trouble with it either.

Hell I can blow down a wall at a keep on my thief or ranger and take the keep just the same

Xsorus.2507:

This kind of post annoys me, The reason it annoys me is because this person seems to think that Class balance is playing a part in winning the Matchups “well thieves blow for zerging around in groups with team specs, No one ever does that…You want these classes if you want to win” While completely ignoring the fact that Your team of Guardians/Elementalist/Necro’s ect ect aren’t what is winning the match up for you.

Coverage…..that is what wins the Matchup’s, not classes, not your amazing skill in a group, Coverage does… The Team with the greatest population for the longest period of time wins..

It doesn’t matter if you can kick the opposing sides kitten all day long, if you don’t have Coverage for the 2nd half of the day, You’re going to lose the matchup….

Every Server you seen that’s Green Right now is winning not by some sort of magical skill on their part, But because they have more people then the Red and Blue team.

So…skill, communication, coordination, ability, tactics… none of it matters. It’s just coverage. Coverage is the only thing that matters. By the same logic, why are we even talking about stealth and thieves at all since it matters even less regarding WvW outcome?

Xsorus.2507:

jkctmc.8754:

oZii.2864:

Daeqar.8965:

When it comes to thieves in WvW, they are what is likely the best class at executing a losing strategy. That strategy being lonewolf PvP in a large scale gametype.

If you want to move around the field alone, quickly, and potentially pick off stragglers, I can’t think of anything better than a thief. This does have some niche value in WvW for things like murdering dolyaks at low personnel costs, but if even a disproportionate fraction of a server is running these lonewolf spec thieves, they will get absolutely destroyed in WvW by the server running a tight, unstoppable ball of team specs like hammer warriors, guardians, eles, necros, etc. that support each other and play together. If folks ditch the narcissistic attitudes, they would realize that thieves are actually a very limited value class when it comes to winning WvW. The game is called Guild Wars for a reason.

Pretty much the only opportunity a thief has for a useful role in that winning, tightly-knit teamplay is just for on-demand blast finishers with shortbow. (No permastealth or burst combos here.) Bring two shortbow thieves: role filled. Everyone else re-roll a more useful class or be a scout/dolyak-killer (better yet, let pugs do it) and miss out on all mega-bag drops.

Hit the nail on the head but people will come with a counter argument that nobody cares about the objectives in WvW and everyone is just looking for small team fights/1vX.

We need to balance WvW around 1vX and 5v5’s and solo roamers that is what matters in WvW according to this thread.

You can take any camp with 2 people, and prior to the patch you could open any wall, or gate with four people, now you can do it with up to 25 people. You guys really think you need a Zerg to accomplish anything in WvW? O.O

I can solo any camp in WvW with my thief or ranger..I’m sure other classes don’t have trouble with it either.

Hell I can blow down a wall at a keep on my thief or ranger and take the keep just the same

I can do the same thing. I was just making sure I covered other peoples lack of skill. Anyone regardless of skill can do what I said above with those numbers.

Daeqar.8965:

Xsorus.2507:

This kind of post annoys me, The reason it annoys me is because this person seems to think that Class balance is playing a part in winning the Matchups “well thieves blow for zerging around in groups with team specs, No one ever does that…You want these classes if you want to win” While completely ignoring the fact that Your team of Guardians/Elementalist/Necro’s ect ect aren’t what is winning the match up for you.

Coverage…..that is what wins the Matchup’s, not classes, not your amazing skill in a group, Coverage does… The Team with the greatest population for the longest period of time wins..

It doesn’t matter if you can kick the opposing sides kitten all day long, if you don’t have Coverage for the 2nd half of the day, You’re going to lose the matchup….

Every Server you seen that’s Green Right now is winning not by some sort of magical skill on their part, But because they have more people then the Red and Blue team.

So…skill, communication, coordination, ability, tactics… none of it matters. It’s just coverage. Coverage is the only thing that matters. By the same logic, why are we even talking about stealth and thieves at all since it matters even less regarding WvW outcome?

Because the outcome of WvW is not related to stealth being overpowered, And you trying to make WvW score the only issue for nerfing/buffing a class in PvP is silly…

And to answer your question, Yes, the none of the things you listed matters, Only Coverage does… I played on HoD at the start with titans alliance, we had all those things at the beginning…but the reason we won our matchups was because we had 24/7 Coverage….

Straegen.2938:

Eliyahu.1467:

The reason why it’s not an issue in sPvP is because you can’t cap points while stealthed, which leads to poor objective control with a roaming class — not exactly the best combo.

A player cannot cap points in stealth now. The control point doesn’t tick while a player is in stealth and a player cannot damage anything while in stealth.

Eliyahu.1467:

As to Power/crit stacking, thief damage is not and has never been the problem. Thief damage is fine as is. The problem is stealth granting ridiculous survivability and sustain.

Huh? The biggest complaint on the forums about thieves is they hit like a truck and often cannot be seen when it happens. No class should be able to kill another in 1-2 seconds and certainly while never appearing. Culling addresses part of this but GC thieves stacking bloodlust and popping signets with 6k + mugs and 12k+ stabs is a real problem for a lot of players. This isn’t a problem in sPvP because of the soft caps. I am not saying WvW players should have the same soft cap but no single player should be two or three shotting other similarly geared/leveled players.

I’m not sure what you were trying to accomplish with the first response. You just reiterated exactly what I said.

To the second part: GC thieves are by far the easiest type of thief to deal with. One well timed dodge/block/evade/blind/invuln on your part and they’re screwed. Because they’re specced into damage it is much harder for them to stealth, get away, and reset the fight. Dodge and respond with your own damage combo and they’re dead.

I hate the fact that people complain about GC thieves on the forums, mainly because it detracts from the real issue: stealth.

Eliyahu.1467:

You’re being pretty thick. You have to balance WvW around all engagements, large and small.

You say people who are advocating for a stealth nerf are only pushing for balancing around a small scale. That is false. Nerfing stealth will only serve to help balance small engagements and will do nothing to unbalance large engagements. There is absolutely no con to nerfing stealth other then you and yours won’t be able to endlessly troll other players anymore.

You have all but acknowledged that stealth is overpowered in small engagements, but you have yet to present one legitimate reason why it should not be changed. The argument that WvW should be balanced exclusively around zerg v zerg with no consideration for small engagements is absolutely absurd. If one does not affect the other you can balance them separately, making your argument completely and utterly irrelevant.

The thief class is weak/limited with large engagements. It specializes in small engagements, and only because of stealth. If you make it even just mediocre in small engagements (which are largely inconsequential towards winning,) the entire class is weak and pointless for WvW.

GC thieves are a problem when you’re fighting someone else..

1v1 they’re less of a problem.

They’re like GC Warriors in that regard, I can stomp a GC Great Sword Warriors kitten in all day long on my Thief or Ranger… and there is nothing he can do about it.

However if i’m fighting someone else, and he runs and jumps me..There is a good chance i’m boned.

Daeqar.8965:

Eliyahu.1467:

You’re being pretty thick. You have to balance WvW around all engagements, large and small.

You say people who are advocating for a stealth nerf are only pushing for balancing around a small scale. That is false. Nerfing stealth will only serve to help balance small engagements and will do nothing to unbalance large engagements. There is absolutely no con to nerfing stealth other then you and yours won’t be able to endlessly troll other players anymore.

You have all but acknowledged that stealth is overpowered in small engagements, but you have yet to present one legitimate reason why it should not be changed. The argument that WvW should be balanced exclusively around zerg v zerg with no consideration for small engagements is absolutely absurd. If one does not affect the other you can balance them separately, making your argument completely and utterly irrelevant.

The thief class is weak/limited with large engagements. It specializes in small engagements, and only because of stealth. If you make it even just mediocre in small engagements (which are largely inconsequential towards winning,) the entire class is weak and pointless for WvW.

There are plenty of thief builds out there that excel at small engagements that aren’t “perma-stealth” variants. If you believe a thief needs all of the stealth it has access to right now to be successful in small fights, you are mistaken. It’s one thing to be good in a small fight. It’s another thing to be able to invariably escape death when engaging 10 players.

Oh and as a note, I’m not opposed to thieves getting a simultaneous buff to their survivability/durability with a stealth nerf. I think the class needs a small redesign in that regard.

Xsorus.2507:

GC thieves are a problem when you’re fighting someone else..

1v1 they’re less of a problem.

They’re like GC Warriors in that regard, I can stomp a GC Great Sword Warriors kitten in all day long on my Thief or Ranger… and there is nothing he can do about it.

However if i’m fighting someone else, and he runs and jumps me..There is a good chance i’m boned.

A GC thief is always a threat 1v1 when properly built and played. They pick when a fight starts and ends most of the time. Most good ones also run full bloodlust, pop signets, mug, backstab, HS and kill most players outright. They frequently bas-venom them if they resist. Might only be able to do that ever couple minutes but that still makes them really dangerous in 1v1 combatc. GS/Hammer/Rifle GC warriors walk around with 20k+ health deserve respect as well. Sounds like you are one of those “I can beat every build ever imagined” players but most players learn to respect those classes 1v1 quickly when they are played well.

Xsorus.2507:

Why is it i keep seeing the same people talking about balancing the game around Solo Roamers or 1v1….

When it’s not the issue.

The ability to survive against LARGE NUMBERS as a solo class and escape 99% of the time is the issue.

Short of the Elementalist (which can still be killed easily) No other class comes close to the Thief in this regard…..Its so easy to escape on the thief that the class lacks very little skill to be successful at…It being amazing in 1v1’s and small mans is just a by product of that.

I also find it quite amusing that you guys keep bringing up objectives, While ignoring that one class can bog down large numbers of people and still escape just fine because there is no risk involved with the class when doing this.

I honestly think that you don’t know how to defend your point…
I can say I survive 70% of time but that is totally subjective when it comes to survivability, everyone have their own experiences, please do not lose yourself by generalizing your own experience to everyone, I can assure you that’s why you have so many ppl against your statement/sugguestion or w/e it’s, elaborate your point more please….

Xsorus.2507:

Stiv.1820:

The only change that is actually needed is a 1 point DD added to Poison Arrow and maybe Trops utility (fix culling too but that’s just a noob crutch excuse, it won’t matter much). A thief should not be able to initiate damage and remain stealthed. Even if the people who die to this are god awful. Trops are so easy to avoid though it’s hard to justify, even PvE players should know to stay out of red circles…

Other than that, showing videos of a thief trolling bads in WvW proves nothing but how terrible a large portion of the WvW player-base is. You can troll a zerg all day but then you run into 2-5 guided decent PvPers and treat them like the masses and they will roll you hard. I wonder if that’s happened to you yet on your Thief OP?

rofl, the population is just bad, so nerf to stealth isn’t needed grin

And no it’s not happened yet… know why?

Because if i get trouble I can teleport away..

I stopped this discussion long time ago. Its obvious all who doesnt play thieves, are terrible players…it all cooks down to that.

killimandros.5087:

Xsorus.2507:

Stiv.1820:

The only change that is actually needed is a 1 point DD added to Poison Arrow and maybe Trops utility (fix culling too but that’s just a noob crutch excuse, it won’t matter much). A thief should not be able to initiate damage and remain stealthed. Even if the people who die to this are god awful. Trops are so easy to avoid though it’s hard to justify, even PvE players should know to stay out of red circles…

Other than that, showing videos of a thief trolling bads in WvW proves nothing but how terrible a large portion of the WvW player-base is. You can troll a zerg all day but then you run into 2-5 guided decent PvPers and treat them like the masses and they will roll you hard. I wonder if that’s happened to you yet on your Thief OP?

rofl, the population is just bad, so nerf to stealth isn’t needed grin

And no it’s not happened yet… know why?

Because if i get trouble I can teleport away..

I stopped this discussion long time ago. Its obvious all who doesnt play thieves, are terrible players…it all cooks down to that.

Hold on cowboy… Are you saying in order to be a good player one must play a thief? And everyone that doesn’t play a thief is a baddy?

jportell.2197:

killimandros.5087:

Xsorus.2507:

Stiv.1820:

The only change that is actually needed is a 1 point DD added to Poison Arrow and maybe Trops utility (fix culling too but that’s just a noob crutch excuse, it won’t matter much). A thief should not be able to initiate damage and remain stealthed. Even if the people who die to this are god awful. Trops are so easy to avoid though it’s hard to justify, even PvE players should know to stay out of red circles…

Other than that, showing videos of a thief trolling bads in WvW proves nothing but how terrible a large portion of the WvW player-base is. You can troll a zerg all day but then you run into 2-5 guided decent PvPers and treat them like the masses and they will roll you hard. I wonder if that’s happened to you yet on your Thief OP?

rofl, the population is just bad, so nerf to stealth isn’t needed grin

And no it’s not happened yet… know why?

Because if i get trouble I can teleport away..

I stopped this discussion long time ago. Its obvious all who doesnt play thieves, are terrible players…it all cooks down to that.

Hold on cowboy… Are you saying in order to be a good player one must play a thief? And everyone that doesn’t play a thief is a baddy?

Thats the essence of thjis discussion. I wish we could return to the original topic, which was why stealth and culling is a terrible combination, and why all classes using/abusing stealth need some sorting on their stealth skill to make wvw playable. I played a bit yesterday, and culling has never, ever been this bad before. I doubt I can play with my guildteam until culling is sorted. Ill quote my wvw guild commander; "How on earth am I supposed to make tactical desicions when 9 out of 10 times we engage those 10 people turn out to be 30+++ (we run a 10 man group, and all know the smaller the group the worse do you fare against culling)

killimandros.5087:

jportell.2197:

killimandros.5087:

Xsorus.2507:

Stiv.1820:

The only change that is actually needed is a 1 point DD added to Poison Arrow and maybe Trops utility (fix culling too but that’s just a noob crutch excuse, it won’t matter much). A thief should not be able to initiate damage and remain stealthed. Even if the people who die to this are god awful. Trops are so easy to avoid though it’s hard to justify, even PvE players should know to stay out of red circles…

Other than that, showing videos of a thief trolling bads in WvW proves nothing but how terrible a large portion of the WvW player-base is. You can troll a zerg all day but then you run into 2-5 guided decent PvPers and treat them like the masses and they will roll you hard. I wonder if that’s happened to you yet on your Thief OP?

rofl, the population is just bad, so nerf to stealth isn’t needed grin

And no it’s not happened yet… know why?

Because if i get trouble I can teleport away..

I stopped this discussion long time ago. Its obvious all who doesnt play thieves, are terrible players…it all cooks down to that.

Hold on cowboy… Are you saying in order to be a good player one must play a thief? And everyone that doesn’t play a thief is a baddy?

Thats the essence of thjis discussion. I wish we could return to the original topic, which was why stealth and culling is a terrible combination, and why all classes using/abusing stealth need some sorting on their stealth skill to make wvw playable. I played a bit yesterday, and culling has never, ever been this bad before. I doubt I can play with my guildteam until culling is sorted. Ill quote my wvw guild commander; "How on earth am I supposed to make tactical desicions when 9 out of 10 times we engage those 10 people turn out to be 30+++ (we run a 10 man group, and all know the smaller the group the worse do you fare against culling)

So then that is an entirely different issue here. And even if you are engaging a thief 1v1 (or any class that accesses stealth) there is a lag between when they break stealth and when they render on your screen. The reason it gets directed at thieves is they can go back into stealth faster than any other class and get more perks from it. So no not every person who isn’t a thief is automatically a baddy

No, theres 2 discussions going on here, the first one, is the one im interested in, where the issue with culling makes it possible to permastealth (for the classes who can do that…) and the other discussion is wether or not the thief with the stealth mechanics as of today, is overpowered or balanced. So far most classes apart from the thief think so, whats more interesting is a fair few thieves (myself included) believe stealth in its current form IS an OP tool against classes in WvV (NOT sPvP or PvE). The thieves who doesnt think so, blame it on lack of skill for all who cant cope with thieves, which is, it seems the majority of the playerbase, which leads me to conclude the essence of the discussion is indeed, if you dont roll a thief, you need to L2P…basically

But that is your observation of the other thieves here view or that is your view? Honestly I hate playing on my thief it isn’t fun at all and more annoying than anything… But I agree the culling with the stealth mechanics of the thief is what makes them OP right now… Along with a couple other things but they have been stated.