Guild Wars 2

Mif.3471:

Svarty.8019:

Repeating myself from here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thieves-uncatchable/page/2

Advice to budding developers (because Anet’s won’t learn): NEVER put stealth classes in a mulitplayer game.

Stealth is quite simply a gamebreaker that is no fun to come up against.

I remember waaaay back when ArenaNet first announced the Thief, they said that stealth was utilitarian and that they didn’t want Thieves to be in stealth all the time.

What a joke that turned out to be.

ArenaNet went with Thief instead of Assassin for a reason, but the balance team sure is doing their best to change that.

Indeed they did go with thief for a reason, Assassin in GW is part of an order from Cantha, since we are not in cantha they could not rightly put assassins in gw2, so they renamed the class and adjusted it some to fit gw2 mechanics, giving it stealth instead of the awesome defenses assassins had. I’d trade stealth for shadowform and distortion abillities any day

Renxian.6982:

To OP. A s/p thief does not have access to perma stealth alone. If 20 of you are letting a two man thief team stand around combo fielding you are all in need of some serious pvp experience.

Kicast.1459:

This thread is a wonder:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Level-80-D-P-in-WvW-Where-am-I-going-wrong

If you want to hear from a thief that
- thieves are OP
- perma-stealth exists and that it makes you unkillable
- perma-stealth thieves have still hudge damage

you’d better present yourself as a thief.

Some delicious parts:

“Standard perma-stealth build of 0/30/30/10/0 outputs enough damage. Heavies will take time to kill but you should be completely unkillable using perma-stealth.”

“On a better note I did manage to engage in and win a 2v1 against a Mesmer and Ranger. It wasn’t the most spectacular of fights but I was quite pleased considering my inexperience so it was a morale victory to say the least.”

And top of the top, they feel that not being able to kill someone while more numerous is “incredibly frustrating” :

“A similar thing happened with an Elementalist, only it was myself and 2 others versus her and despite a good minute of combat she must have got bored and decided to retreat to a Keep with a sizeable amount of health still intact. I have to admit, that fight was incredibly frustrating.”

Well that is exactly what thieves do to all other classes in a much bigger ratio.

But ok, it is just a
-L2P issue
-You just have to know where thief is and what he will do
-If he let you, you win

It seems Thief community feets perfectly well with profession mentality.

I like the part where you paraphrase that link in a way totally different than the content warrants. That player was frustrated because, as a thief, he was struggling to kill anything, even in 1v1s. The comment about an ele was stating that even with a numbers advantage he couldn’t kill the ele (because good ele’s are fuggin unkillable) and the person who said “you’ll be invincible with your perma stealth” is a well known thief forum troll.

Nice try though.

s/p thief actually has perma stealth, but its tricky.

Anyway, the inability of OP to tell if thief is sp or dp pretty much answers his own frustration.

Renxian.6982:

………….

Not to say you prove my point perfectly but when you make pots like this you show a deep lack of knowledge about the game and the meta…..

The added rudeness is just to complete the picture of a good % of thief players.

That is maybe a sign of a class being effective with no effort at all.
And the best part is the class has even a high skill ceiling…..figure if a bad thief player can be effective, how much is a good one.

Atherakhia.4086:

I’d argue this isn’t even the problem as I see nothing wrong with perma-stealth in theory.

Before you continue defending your favorite griefing class & favorite broken mechanic with made-up arguments, I’d suggest you do some googling to find forum posts, blog posts & articles from leading game designers of the world’s most successful online games explaining why long term stealth mechanics (still a weaker mechanic than the on-demand perma-stealth our GW2 Thief has access to) are detrimental to gameplay.
I have this gut feeling these guys invested a lot more time than you thinking about stealth mechanics, and for some strange reason all of them come to the same conclusion: You shall not implement long duration stealth mechanics in your game. A lot even go as far as saying, in hindsight, they should have never implemented any kind of stealth at all in their game.

LordByron.8369:

Renxian.6982:

………….

Not to say you prove my point perfectly but when you make pots like this you show a deep lack of knowledge about the game and the meta…..

The added rudeness is just to complete the picture of a good % of thief players.

That is maybe a sign of a class being effective with no effort at all.
And the best part is the class has even a high skill ceiling…..figure if a bad thief player can be effective, how much is a good one.

Really? How would you act if day in and day out for almost a year, layman assaulted your skill and integrity, baring witness to persecutions ranging double standards to slander.
If and other class in the game performs a high burst it’s automatically because they’re skill. See 100 nades. People act like Thief is some god class when in truth, the only thing people can accurately claim thieves accell at are minor WvW objectives resource gathering and map completion. No one will choose a thief in anything PvE if a guardian or warrior is available (or just about anything that’s not a ranger). Some commanders disuade thieves from zergs because they’re “rally fodder”, and in TPvP they’re a real contender for 7 or 6th place in the tier listing.
So tell me why we should not be more then a little tired of it all? Especially when you have classes like Guardian, who have the entire game handed to them on a silver platter and catch zero guff for it?

LOL. Ok you need to make up your mind. Either they were permastealth, or they were killing you. Seeing as attacking reveals them it would be impossible to have both. and with TWENTY other people there they should have been insta nuked right out of reveal. I smell some bull-poo.

Also i would like you to explain to me the perma-stealth mechanic of s/p.

The fact that the OP gets massively upvoted when stating he together with 20 people got owned by 2 permastealth s/p thieves just says enough about the topic and the general opinion of baddies on thieves here on the forums. The ironic thing is that he claims to know how to play against thieves.

Thieves are only good at roaming and permastealthing in keeps to ress that one mesmer, and the latter is a stupid mechanic. This has nothing to do with the revealed debuff, so people suggesting to increase that are just silly. They probably need the nerf the amount of stealth you get from leaping through a smoke field, the only reason why permastealth is achievable in d/p. Or perhaps increase the iniative cost on black powder. And they need to fix the fact that you can cloak and dagger on walls and supply depots inside a keep/tower. I believe they did fix it in the past, but for some odd reason it’s back. It’s not as big of an issue though.

Other than that thieves are fine. Take away their ability to hold their own while roaming alone and you will be taking the one thing thieves are actually good at. Every other class outshines them at pretty much anything else. But yeah, better upvote that person suggesting to increase revealed to 7 seconds!

Dual.8953:

Really? How would you act if day in and day out for almost a year, layman assaulted your skill and integrity, baring witness to persecutions ranging double standards to slander.
If and other class in the game performs a high burst it’s automatically because they’re skill. See 100 nades. People act like Thief is some god class when in truth, the only thing people can accurately claim thieves accell at are minor WvW objectives resource gathering and map completion. No one will choose a thief in anything PvE if a guardian or warrior is available (or just about anything that’s not a ranger). Some commanders disuade thieves from zergs because they’re “rally fodder”, and in TPvP they’re a real contender for 7 or 6th place in the tier listing.
So tell me why we should not be more then a little tired of it all? Especially when you have classes like Guardian, who have the entire game handed to them on a silver platter and catch zero guff for it?

oh trust me i quit a professions due to double standards…..
What thief does usually can get other profession nerfed into oblivion…

The same Worth for guardians to a lesser extent…..

P.S. thief weak in PvE and pvp ._.? i stroooooongly disagree but i m tired of repeating the same things…there is a profession forum for that.

You must be kidding.
I know the 90% of the thieves of one of the tier1 servers, Baruch.
I think I can state some tips:
- Thieves are not even in the draft of PvE, almost last option if not the last.
- 1 vs 1 are competitive but not top3. We participate in the fight club and our best swords have done many trials. Even with similar skillful there are other classes with better performance duelling.
- No place in zergs, even before the short bow nerf thieves were not welcomed to zergs. Just count the number of thieves playing in RG, Sin, Votf, bull and others…

So, thief does not shine in 1vs1, and has not a place in zergs or PvE.
The only place remaining for thief is roaming, ninjaging, trolling…at the end he can just being able to disengage from fights. No support skills, no excess of burst damage, no cc environment, no buffs…just stealth
That is precisely the viable role of thieves, to avoid players and zergs stealthing.

Take a look on the big picture, do not just emphasize in the skillful thief who killed you and run in stealth.

Best,

Haltair, one of the twelve shadows

Master of Timespace.2548:

Daendur.2357:

If video cannot be taken as an argument i guess random sentences about opness can… nice logic.

Streaming gameplay could be a good argument, videos that are just made to be fun to watch however, do not.

Streaming gameplay could be boring as hell, videos are just montages of real gameplay action taking the best of it … it’s not special effetcs or anything else …
check Maskaganda’s channel to see how engi can be OP
The thief is not the only profession that can kill multiple opponents. And not every thief can… it’s just a matter of skill.

Most popular and successful mmo of all time has had perma stealth since release and has kept it across 4 expansions.

I think we can end these discussions now.

@haltair
wich is the best team for COF?
And for FOTM48?

How comes that thief is required for both?

Why people don t usually want thieves in dungeons?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/CoF-Speed-run-question/first#post2375610

Most are fine with a thief for the gate controller. The problem is lots of thieves are terrible at it and so some groups would rather pick a warrior.

the first random post i found about that…

Thus if you manage to get a good thief in a party for a dungeon is GOLD!
Unfortunately as written everywhere (even in thief forum a month ago) most thief players gives the profession a bad reputation…..
And you could start to wonder why.

beginning from players who thinks thief is subpar in PvE that is really outrageous to the real professions needing pve balance.

Yep, thief is not bad in pve, yet there are many players who give it a bad reputation.
If you consider thief useless in pve then everything but warrior and mesmer (and maybe guardian) is useless in the majority of pve content (aka everything except that I don’t know about high level fractals).
Well it probably is like that but compared to the remaining classes thief is actually pretty useful.

shadowraith.9124:

Most popular and successful mmo of all time has had perma stealth since release and has kept it across 4 expansions.

I think we can end these discussions now.

While in Stealth a Rogue moves slower, unless specced for stealth speed. A Thief runs just as fast as everyone else, if specced for stealth speed he’ll be faster then anything.

A Rogue takes damage, even from a DoT, and his stealth will be broken. A Thief doesnt not exit Stealth when taking damage. Even getting downed doesnt cause a Thief to lose Stealth.

Re-stealthing for a Rogue meant leaving combat or blowing lengthy cooldowns. Restealthing for a Thief comes on abilities with no cooldown and a cost low enough to resealth everytime Revealed fades. Abilities with a cooldown are still much lower by comparison.

A Rogue has limited gapclosers, either they need to be specced for or they come with a lenghty cooldown, or both. A Thief has a multitude of gapclosers on low cooldown or no cooldown at all.

Looks like a Rogue in “the most popular MMO ever” has quite a few drawbacks a Thief does not have. So are you really sure you want to go and compare to “the most popular mMO evar”? Because that just shows how silly Stealth in GW2 is.

makku.2508:

Atherakhia.4086:

I’d argue this isn’t even the problem as I see nothing wrong with perma-stealth in theory.

Before you continue defending your favorite griefing class & favorite broken mechanic with made-up arguments, I’d suggest you do some googling to find forum posts, blog posts & articles from leading game designers of the world’s most successful online games explaining why long term stealth mechanics (still a weaker mechanic than the on-demand perma-stealth our GW2 Thief has access to) are detrimental to gameplay.
I have this gut feeling these guys invested a lot more time than you thinking about stealth mechanics, and for some strange reason all of them come to the same conclusion: You shall not implement long duration stealth mechanics in your game. A lot even go as far as saying, in hindsight, they should have never implemented any kind of stealth at all in their game.

Why in the world would I go through all the effort when common sense can prevail? There’s nothing wrong with permanent stealth in a game where the class is balanced in a way to allow it. That’s not the case here and you’d know that was my opinion all along if you actually read anything I wrote beyond the one line you quoted.

There isn’t anything wrong with perma stealth in GW2 in theory. Just like you quoted. The problem (which you ignored for some reason) is that you gain the added utility but sacrifice nothing for it.

If you actually read anything I wrote in this or any other thread you’d see that even though I play a thief, I feel it is overpowered. But unlike you and many others, I’d sooner resolve the root problem then keep chipping away at the edges by nerfing everyone’s complaint of the week.

Terrahero.9358:

shadowraith.9124:

Most popular and successful mmo of all time has had perma stealth since release and has kept it across 4 expansions.

I think we can end these discussions now.

While in Stealth a Rogue moves slower, unless specced for stealth speed. A Thief runs just as fast as everyone else, if specced for stealth speed he’ll be faster then anything.

A Rogue takes damage, even from a DoT, and his stealth will be broken. A Thief doesnt not exit Stealth when taking damage. Even getting downed doesnt cause a Thief to lose Stealth.

Re-stealthing for a Rogue meant leaving combat or blowing lengthy cooldowns. Restealthing for a Thief comes on abilities with no cooldown and a cost low enough to resealth everytime Revealed fades. Abilities with a cooldown are still much lower by comparison.

A Rogue has limited gapclosers, either they need to be specced for or they come with a lenghty cooldown, or both. A Thief has a multitude of gapclosers on low cooldown or no cooldown at all.

Looks like a Rogue in “the most popular MMO ever” has quite a few drawbacks just to get perma-stealth. Drawbacks the perma-stealthing Thief does not have.

A bit biased aren’t you?

A rogue purges all DOTS when stealthing in combat.
A rogue cancels all channeled spells on it when stealthing in combat.
Rogues in WoW had stuns. Tons of them.
Rogues in WoW had difficult to remove snares.
Rogues had high sustained damage and effective burst dumping options.
Rogues had activated defensive options outside of stealth.

Lets face it, the thief and rogue are simply too different in two entirely different mmos. If you’re going to try and compare classes between games, at least try to find one more closely related. Shadowbane for example.

I’m not sure how it happens in WoW, but in Aion, a stealthed Assassin had those particularities :

- damage removes stealth
- you cannot target him
- you cannot use 99% of the skills without an hostile targeted
- you cannot autoattack without an hostile target

As a result, the methods available for stealth reveal where extremely limited : a few point blank untargeted AoEs and the AoE around a target could be used.

Aion as a game was very stingy with AoEs which were all on long CD except for the gladiator PBAoE chain in which you could do the first hit like every 12s but the radius was small.

One little fact not many knew though was that you CAN thrown a targeted AoE on a friendly so I had loads of fun using my seemingly useless weak AoE DoT on my team gladiator as he charged first into the other team so that the cast ended up at the right time and caught any stealthed assassin (or ranger at times) going for me and my friendly backliners long before they were any threat. You could also cast the spell at yourself.

Still, as I said, such AoE spells were very uncommon or long CD in the game which is something I always found to be a nice balance compared to the huge AoE spam that is GW2. The best AoE class in Aion was the melee gladiator which is kind of fitting since it’s extremely limited by his short range.

Terrahero.9358:

While in Stealth a Rogue moves slower, unless specced for stealth speed. A Thief runs just as fast as everyone else, if specced for stealth speed he’ll be faster then anything.

A Rogue takes damage, even from a DoT, and his stealth will be broken. A Thief doesnt not exit Stealth when taking damage. Even getting downed doesnt cause a Thief to lose Stealth.

Re-stealthing for a Rogue meant leaving combat or blowing lengthy cooldowns. Restealthing for a Thief comes on abilities with no cooldown and a cost low enough to resealth everytime Revealed fades. Abilities with a cooldown are still much lower by comparison.

A Rogue has limited gapclosers, either they need to be specced for or they come with a lenghty cooldown, or both. A Thief has a multitude of gapclosers on low cooldown or no cooldown at all.

Looks like a Rogue in “the most popular MMO ever” has quite a few drawbacks a Thief does not have. So are you really sure you want to go and compare to “the most popular mMO evar”? Because that just shows how silly Stealth in GW2 is.

Different game different classes. You wanna give thief a rogues stealth you need to give it evasion kitten-tonnes of stuns, etc etc.

Point is, perma stealth isn’t a broken mechanic it’s very common and a lot of people really enjoy playing ambush classes. I’m one of them although I don’t main a thief due to it being useless for group combat.

If they take perma stealth away it needs to be accompanied by enormour buffs to a number of other thief builds or the class will become unplayable.

Given the dev team for this game is the worst of any game I’ve ever played I’m sure we can expect them to make the wrong decision, whatever that turns out to be.

Again, I know many of the most skillfull thieves in the game and they could comment you that thieves are not the best option as class in 1vs1. Even if a couple of pvp teams pick one in their playgame style.
Even you show that the class is not suited for PvE ( with particular exceptions).
Again, count the number of thieves in the top MvM guilds.

I have direct contact with more than one hundred thieves and know perfectly how the things are going. And I must say that you are absolutely wrong.
Thieves unique advantage is their ability to disengage from fights, we can not give support, buff properly, heal, our aoe is in the average, low health….absolutely unuseful in many areas. The one in which we can compete, roaming and trolling, is due to stealth, it is not a broken skill, is the only one that allows the class to be playable (besides this other classes can perform roaming quite well as ele, engis and others).
Even in an ideal situation I can not to avoid the fights in many cases, there are player whi know how to deal with thieves perfectly, so there are several issues here:

- A l2p fact, as I had to learn against retaliation, as unavoidable as stealth.
- You are restricted to the thieves who kicked your us, you do not pay attention to the big picture.
- the big picture is pve, duelling, guild zerging and so on. And in several of these fields thieves are almost the last option.
- you are kitten ed of because a thief ambushed you alone in a selected empty place and afterwards run away, that is exactly for what they were designed.

Live with ambushes, adapt to thieves gameplay, realize that they are suited just for a couple of situations, in contrast to many other classes.

Best regards,

Haltair, one of the Twelve Shadows

Atherakhia.4086:

Terrahero.9358:

shadowraith.9124:

Most popular and successful mmo of all time has had perma stealth since release and has kept it across 4 expansions.

I think we can end these discussions now.

While in Stealth a Rogue moves slower, unless specced for stealth speed. A Thief runs just as fast as everyone else, if specced for stealth speed he’ll be faster then anything.

A Rogue takes damage, even from a DoT, and his stealth will be broken. A Thief doesnt not exit Stealth when taking damage. Even getting downed doesnt cause a Thief to lose Stealth.

Re-stealthing for a Rogue meant leaving combat or blowing lengthy cooldowns. Restealthing for a Thief comes on abilities with no cooldown and a cost low enough to resealth everytime Revealed fades. Abilities with a cooldown are still much lower by comparison.

A Rogue has limited gapclosers, either they need to be specced for or they come with a lenghty cooldown, or both. A Thief has a multitude of gapclosers on low cooldown or no cooldown at all.

Looks like a Rogue in “the most popular MMO ever” has quite a few drawbacks just to get perma-stealth. Drawbacks the perma-stealthing Thief does not have.

A bit biased aren’t you?

A rogue purges all DOTS when stealthing in combat.
A rogue cancels all channeled spells on it when stealthing in combat.
Rogues in WoW had stuns. Tons of them.
Rogues in WoW had difficult to remove snares.
Rogues had high sustained damage and effective burst dumping options.
Rogues had activated defensive options outside of stealth.

Lets face it, the thief and rogue are simply too different in two entirely different mmos. If you’re going to try and compare classes between games, at least try to find one more closely related. Shadowbane for example.

Ow im the biased one for punching holes in the other guys comparison. But hey, ill bite.

-Rogue had to blow a long cooldown to restealth and purge dots. A Thief has a 30sec cooldown heal with stealths and removes burning/bleeding/poison. And it doesnt even matter as much for the Thief because the Rogue would immediatly destealth if he had DoTs, a Thief wouldnt.

-A Thief can cause AoE blind when he stealths. Causing whole groups to miss their attacks, and restealths every 4seconds. Unlike the Rogue which, again, had to blow a long cooldown. Even if the Thief didnt spec for Blind on Stealth he can still pick up Blinding Powder which combines an AoE blind with Stealthing.

-Yah, they had a lot of stuns. And with practise, and if everything went the way it was intented they could stunlock a lot of your health away. A Thief may only have 1 stun, but it doesnt need a prolonged CC to deal a lot of damage, just 1 button, Backstab. And he can reuse it over and over. Stuns are simply not needed to deal as much damage on a defenseless victim like a Rogue.

-Thief has impossible to escape mobility. Either you move slower then a Rogue, which could still be removed/immuned, or you run slower then a Thief. Which is much harder to counter. Basicly its Warrior, or go home.

-Between the 7k backstabs, the 4k CnDs a Thief cirts 2k+ on autoattack. You want to talk substained and burst?

-So does a Thief. Shadowstep, Daggerstorm, Withdraw, Smokescreen, Roll for Initiative, Infiltrators Signet, Signet of Shadows are skills that have defensive applications and dont in any way, shape or form involve Stealth.
Pistolwhip, Flanking Strike, Disabling Shot, Death Blossom have a build in Evade component. Dodging while attacking.
And then there is still like Blackpowder, Infiltrator’s strike, Infiltrator’s Arrow and Shadowstrike that can be used to get out of a hairy situation or facetank an enemy.

All abilities that can be used to directly keep yourself alive, and nothing to do with Stealth. Or did you mean “Thief doesnt have a 5min cooldown ability that directly gives him a flat defensive bonus” Because then there is always Daggerstorm, dealing damage while being immune to projectiles and unCCable.

Terrahero.9358:

there is always Daggerstorm, dealing damage while being immune to projectiles and unCCable.

There is still immobilize, cripple and chill for CC… and you don’t need a projectile for those.

Terrahero.9358:

Atherakhia.4086:

Terrahero.9358:

shadowraith.9124:

Most popular and successful mmo of all time has had perma stealth since release and has kept it across 4 expansions.

I think we can end these discussions now.

While in Stealth a Rogue moves slower, unless specced for stealth speed. A Thief runs just as fast as everyone else, if specced for stealth speed he’ll be faster then anything.

A Rogue takes damage, even from a DoT, and his stealth will be broken. A Thief doesnt not exit Stealth when taking damage. Even getting downed doesnt cause a Thief to lose Stealth.

Re-stealthing for a Rogue meant leaving combat or blowing lengthy cooldowns. Restealthing for a Thief comes on abilities with no cooldown and a cost low enough to resealth everytime Revealed fades. Abilities with a cooldown are still much lower by comparison.

A Rogue has limited gapclosers, either they need to be specced for or they come with a lenghty cooldown, or both. A Thief has a multitude of gapclosers on low cooldown or no cooldown at all.

Looks like a Rogue in “the most popular MMO ever” has quite a few drawbacks just to get perma-stealth. Drawbacks the perma-stealthing Thief does not have.

A bit biased aren’t you?

A rogue purges all DOTS when stealthing in combat.
A rogue cancels all channeled spells on it when stealthing in combat.
Rogues in WoW had stuns. Tons of them.
Rogues in WoW had difficult to remove snares.
Rogues had high sustained damage and effective burst dumping options.
Rogues had activated defensive options outside of stealth.

Lets face it, the thief and rogue are simply too different in two entirely different mmos. If you’re going to try and compare classes between games, at least try to find one more closely related. Shadowbane for example.

Ow im the biased one for punching holes in the other guys comparison. But hey, ill bite.

-Rogue had to blow a long cooldown to restealth and purge dots. A Thief has a 30sec cooldown heal with stealths and removes burning/bleeding/poison. And it doesnt even matter as much for the Thief because the Rogue would immediatly destealth if he had DoTs, a Thief wouldnt.

-A Thief can cause AoE blind when he stealths. Causing whole groups to miss their attacks, and restealths every 4seconds. Unlike the Rogue which, again, had to blow a long cooldown. Even if the Thief didnt spec for Blind on Stealth he can still pick up Blinding Powder which combines an AoE blind with Stealthing.

-Yah, they had a lot of stuns. And with practise, and if everything went the way it was intented they could stunlock a lot of your health away. A Thief may only have 1 stun, but it doesnt need a prolonged CC to deal a lot of damage, just 1 button, Backstab. And he can reuse it over and over. Stuns are simply not needed to deal as much damage on a defenseless victim like a Rogue.

-Thief has impossible to escape mobility. Either you move slower then a Rogue, which could still be removed/immuned, or you run slower then a Thief. Which is much harder to counter. Basicly its Warrior, or go home.

-Between the 7k backstabs, the 4k CnDs a Thief cirts 2k+ on autoattack. You want to talk substained and burst?

-So does a Thief. Shadowstep, Daggerstorm, Withdraw, Smokescreen, Roll for Initiative, Infiltrators Signet, Signet of Shadows are skills that have defensive applications and dont in any way, shape or form involve Stealth.
Pistolwhip, Flanking Strike, Disabling Shot, Death Blossom have a build in Evade component. Dodging while attacking.
And then there is still like Blackpowder, Infiltrator’s strike, Infiltrator’s Arrow and Shadowstrike that can be used to get out of a hairy situation or facetank an enemy.

All abilities that can be used to directly keep yourself alive, and nothing to do with Stealth. Or did you mean “Thief doesnt have a 5min cooldown ability that directly gives him a flat defensive bonus” Because then there is always Daggerstorm, dealing damage while being immune to projectiles and unCCable.

On the defensive thing, Rogues have passive evades; because of that they can stand there facetanking like a warrior. Thieves cannot. Thieves always have to be active with their guards, and most of them make is so they have to stop attacking. No other class in this game has to defend as actively.
Also Daggerstorm is crap. It only reflects projectiles, doing little for in close quarters, not to mention this game has a crap ton of ranged AoE.

Rogues and Thieves are completely different beasts. Rogue is a Warrior who happens to be able to stealth and stun. Thief is an agile but fragile fighter with tons of positional tools but little to no passive defenses.

Haltair.3062:

Again, I know many of the most skillfull thieves in the game and they could comment you that thieves are not the best option as class in 1vs1. Even if a couple of pvp teams pick one in their playgame style.
Even you show that the class is not suited for PvE ( with particular exceptions).
Again, count the number of thieves in the top MvM guilds.

I have direct contact with more than one hundred thieves and know perfectly how the things are going. And I must say that you are absolutely wrong.
Thieves unique advantage is their ability to disengage from fights, we can not give support, buff properly, heal, our aoe is in the average, low health….absolutely unuseful in many areas. The one in which we can compete, roaming and trolling, is due to stealth, it is not a broken skill, is the only one that allows the class to be playable (besides this other classes can perform roaming quite well as ele, engis and others).
Even in an ideal situation I can not to avoid the fights in many cases, there are player whi know how to deal with thieves perfectly, so there are several issues here:

- A l2p fact, as I had to learn against retaliation, as unavoidable as stealth.
- You are restricted to the thieves who kicked your us, you do not pay attention to the big picture.
- the big picture is pve, duelling, guild zerging and so on. And in several of these fields thieves are almost the last option.
- you are kitten ed of because a thief ambushed you alone in a selected empty place and afterwards run away, that is exactly for what they were designed.

Live with ambushes, adapt to thieves gameplay, realize that they are suited just for a couple of situations, in contrast to many other classes.

Best regards,

Haltair, one of the Twelve Shadows

Reading posts like this I can only conclude that thief players who defend permastealth simply love “roaming and trolling”. That’s why they don’t want to balance thieves for other roles and would rather just defend permastealth + high burst all day.

Is this a correct assessment?

aelflune.8590:

Haltair.3062:

Again, I know many of the most skillfull thieves in the game and they could comment you that thieves are not the best option as class in 1vs1. Even if a couple of pvp teams pick one in their playgame style.
Even you show that the class is not suited for PvE ( with particular exceptions).
Again, count the number of thieves in the top MvM guilds.

I have direct contact with more than one hundred thieves and know perfectly how the things are going. And I must say that you are absolutely wrong.
Thieves unique advantage is their ability to disengage from fights, we can not give support, buff properly, heal, our aoe is in the average, low health….absolutely unuseful in many areas. The one in which we can compete, roaming and trolling, is due to stealth, it is not a broken skill, is the only one that allows the class to be playable (besides this other classes can perform roaming quite well as ele, engis and others).
Even in an ideal situation I can not to avoid the fights in many cases, there are player whi know how to deal with thieves perfectly, so there are several issues here:

- A l2p fact, as I had to learn against retaliation, as unavoidable as stealth.
- You are restricted to the thieves who kicked your us, you do not pay attention to the big picture.
- the big picture is pve, duelling, guild zerging and so on. And in several of these fields thieves are almost the last option.
- you are kitten ed of because a thief ambushed you alone in a selected empty place and afterwards run away, that is exactly for what they were designed.

Live with ambushes, adapt to thieves gameplay, realize that they are suited just for a couple of situations, in contrast to many other classes.

Best regards,

Haltair, one of the Twelve Shadows

Reading posts like this I can only conclude that thief players who defend permastealth simply love “roaming and trolling”. That’s why they don’t want to balance thieves for other roles and would rather just defend permastealth + high burst all day.

Is this a correct assessment?

No… thieves would like more viability in other rolls… and complain that they don’t add much to a team composition (go check the thief forums). That’s what most thieves WANT to be able to do. However that doesn’t mean that the current stealth/burst that thieves have is unbalanced. They are actually on the weaker side even in 1v1’s once you get to a higher skill level (why I don’t often play mine anymore). The two are not inherently mutually exclusive.

Terrahero.9358:

shadowraith.9124:

Most popular and successful mmo of all time has had perma stealth since release and has kept it across 4 expansions.

I think we can end these discussions now.

While in Stealth a Rogue moves slower, unless specced for stealth speed. A Thief runs just as fast as everyone else, if specced for stealth speed he’ll be faster then anything.

A Rogue takes damage, even from a DoT, and his stealth will be broken. A Thief doesnt not exit Stealth when taking damage. Even getting downed doesnt cause a Thief to lose Stealth.

Re-stealthing for a Rogue meant leaving combat or blowing lengthy cooldowns. Restealthing for a Thief comes on abilities with no cooldown and a cost low enough to resealth everytime Revealed fades. Abilities with a cooldown are still much lower by comparison.

A Rogue has limited gapclosers, either they need to be specced for or they come with a lenghty cooldown, or both. A Thief has a multitude of gapclosers on low cooldown or no cooldown at all.

Looks like a Rogue in “the most popular MMO ever” has quite a few drawbacks a Thief does not have. So are you really sure you want to go and compare to “the most popular mMO evar”? Because that just shows how silly Stealth in GW2 is.

Not that I really care, but most of those points you’re trying to make about Rogues in WoW became moot about two expansions ago.
As long as I’m posting; yes permastealth is terrible in GW2 and shouldn’t be possible. At least in its current form. And yes the OP was likely making a blatant lie to troll people.

Roll a thief, get farmed by them or leave the game. I thought Anet’s position on the matter for a year made it clear for everyone?

XII.9401:

Roll a thief, get farmed by them or leave the game. I thought Anet’s position on the matter for a year made it clear for everyone?

This only applies if said player is inexperienced, up leveled or simply a poor WvW player.

Best class in the game with the most kills on probably every server, Guardian. We know the player with THE most kills across all servers is a guardian. I will put Alt Healing up against stealth in 3+vX any day.

Straegen.2938:

XII.9401:

Roll a thief, get farmed by them or leave the game. I thought Anet’s position on the matter for a year made it clear for everyone?

This only applies if said player is inexperienced, up leveled or simply a poor WvW player.

Best class in the game with the most kills on probably every server, Guardian. We know the player with THE most kills across all servers is a guardian. I will put Alt Healing up against stealth in 3+vX any day.

Proof of this?
Then again it seems the Thief train in PvP comes and goes, when its buffed HORDES of them rush through it and once they get the odd nerf they all run elsewhere.

Aberrant.6749:

No… thieves would like more viability in other rolls… and complain that they don’t add much to a team composition (go check the thief forums). That’s what most thieves WANT to be able to do. However that doesn’t mean that the current stealth/burst that thieves have is unbalanced. They are actually on the weaker side even in 1v1’s once you get to a higher skill level (why I don’t often play mine anymore). The two are not inherently mutually exclusive.

So what you’re saying is if you compare an elite thief player vs an elite player of another class in a clear 1v1, the thief doesn’t have much of an advantage?

Well, yeah, we all know the classes are balanced around tPvP. This has little bearing on the state of the classes in WvW.

XII.9401:

Roll a thief, get farmed by them or leave the game. I thought Anet’s position on the matter for a year made it clear for everyone?

Do you really have that much trouble? That’s really sad. I take my engie, guardian and my uplevels where ever I want in WvW, and have zero problem with thieves. What’s your excuse?

aelflune.8590:

Aberrant.6749:

No… thieves would like more viability in other rolls… and complain that they don’t add much to a team composition (go check the thief forums). That’s what most thieves WANT to be able to do. However that doesn’t mean that the current stealth/burst that thieves have is unbalanced. They are actually on the weaker side even in 1v1’s once you get to a higher skill level (why I don’t often play mine anymore). The two are not inherently mutually exclusive.

So what you’re saying is if you compare an elite thief player vs an elite player of another class in a clear 1v1, the thief doesn’t have much of an advantage?

Well, yeah, we all know the classes are balanced around tPvP. This has little bearing on the state of the classes in WvW.

I see wars regularly destroy thieves all the time, Necro’s too, guardians, mesmers, engi’s, ele’s, other thieves and even a couple rangers, although i think they’re usually rrr so meh,
Thief only has one advantage and that’s ppl being all scared when things go invisible, get over that and it’s just a fight.

This is coming from someone who’s pvp experience doesn’t even go back as long as wvw itself, I’m not that great, i loose fights all the time, thieves run like 3/4 fights, if they aren’t tower humpin.

aelflune.8590:

Aberrant.6749:

No… thieves would like more viability in other rolls… and complain that they don’t add much to a team composition (go check the thief forums). That’s what most thieves WANT to be able to do. However that doesn’t mean that the current stealth/burst that thieves have is unbalanced. They are actually on the weaker side even in 1v1’s once you get to a higher skill level (why I don’t often play mine anymore). The two are not inherently mutually exclusive.

So what you’re saying is if you compare an elite thief player vs an elite player of another class in a clear 1v1, the thief doesn’t have much of an advantage?

Well, yeah, we all know the classes are balanced around tPvP. This has little bearing on the state of the classes in WvW.

He’s at a sizeable disadvantage if you want to get that high up in skill levels.

Bad Vs. Bad – Thief wins
Ok Vs Ok – Thief prolly loses but runs away
Good Vs Good – Thief probably dies
EPIC Vs EPIC – Thief in the corner crying “please make the bad man stop” while rocking back and forth.

It is somewhat class dependant, but this is true for the vast majority of classes… with a little bit of fun thrown in ‘cause I’m gettin’ bored of this thread now.

Seems like the perfect opportunity to drop a stealth trap. You know the best part about a stealth trap? Not only are the thieves revealed, but they’re tagged on your minimap.

DeeSystm.1256:

I see wars regularly destroy thieves all the time, Necro’s too, guardians, mesmers, engi’s, ele’s, other thieves and even a couple rangers, although i think they’re usually rrr so meh,

I see thieves regularly destroy warrs and other classes too. So who is right?

Aberrant.6749:

He’s at a sizeable disadvantage if you want to get that high up in skill levels.

Bad Vs. Bad – Thief wins
Ok Vs Ok – Thief prolly loses but runs away
Good Vs Good – Thief probably dies
EPIC Vs EPIC – Thief in the corner crying “please make the bad man stop” while rocking back and forth.

It is somewhat class dependant, but this is true for the vast majority of classes… with a little bit of fun thrown in ‘cause I’m gettin’ bored of this thread now.

“prolly”? I think you mean more like 50-50 in the case of OK vs. OK. If the thief loses he survives. If the other guy loses, well…

If I know a thief is coming I seldom die to them (I can never catch them unless they’re glassy and screw up and eat a full burst), but when I do die it’s in situations like when I’m fighting a guard and an invisible thief backstabs me all of a sudden. I have almost no chance of survival. If I run away, I would be crippled and whittled down, having blown my escape skills on mitigating the thief’s opening moves.

This is where most people’s unpleasant experiences with thieves come from. You may say “Thieves are the assassin class blah blah…” but I think numerous accounts have shown that people do not enjoy sudden and unexpected ganks by invisible players. That’s not their idea of a fair fight, and newsflash: People care about fairness.

Aberrant.6749:

Bad Vs. Bad – Thief wins
Ok Vs Ok – Thief prolly loses but runs away
Good Vs Good – Thief probably dies
EPIC Vs EPIC – Thief in the corner crying “please make the bad man stop” while rocking back and forth.

Mostly agree. A lot depends on when the fight starts because a very good thief will frequently hit when a target is wounded or otherwise engaged. It also varies greatly on armor… Good or better players with high armor are nearly impossible for a thief to kill regardless of thief skill without a substantial advantage at the beginning of the fight.

aelflune.8590:

“prolly”? I think you mean more like 50-50 in the case of OK vs. OK. If the thief loses he survives. If the other guy loses, well…

If I know a thief is coming I seldom die to them (I can never catch them unless they’re glassy and screw up and eat a full burst), but when I do die it’s in situations like when I’m fighting a guard and an invisible thief backstabs me all of a sudden. I have almost no chance of survival. If I run away, I would be crippled and whittled down, having blown my escape skills on mitigating the thief’s opening moves.

This is where most people’s unpleasant experiences with thieves come from. You may say “Thieves are the assassin class blah blah…” but I think numerous accounts have shown that people do not enjoy sudden and unexpected ganks by invisible players. That’s not their idea of a fair fight, and newsflash: People care about fairness.

Prolly = probably. It’s not as slanted as I think you think it is. I’ve had many OK thieves drop dead in stealth while trying to get away because of how I plaid the fight.

You should lose any 1v2 if the skill levels are equal regardless of the classes involved. Thieves end fights quickly in these situations… yes. Thief isn’t the only class that can come out of kitten nowhere and take you down very quickly though.

If you could consistently win in a 1v2 at the same OK or above skill level then your class would be OP and in need of a nerf. I agree… people care about fairness. I don’t see why it’s only fair when people can not be killed quickly in a 1v2 on their own class though >.>

aelflune.8590:

DeeSystm.1256:

I see wars regularly destroy thieves all the time, Necro’s too, guardians, mesmers, engi’s, ele’s, other thieves and even a couple rangers, although i think they’re usually rrr so meh,

I see thieves regularly destroy warrs and other classes too. So who is right?

That was the point

DeeSystm.1256:

That was the point

Seems like just bad argumentation. We’re not both necessarily right.

Aberrant.6749:

Prolly = probably. It’s not as slanted as I think you think it is. I’ve had many OK thieves drop dead in stealth while trying to get away because of how I plaid the fight.

You should lose any 1v2 if the skill levels are equal regardless of the classes involved. Thieves end fights quickly in these situations… yes. Thief isn’t the only class that can come out of kitten nowhere and take you down very quickly though.

If you could consistently win in a 1v2 at the same OK or above skill level then your class would be OP and in need of a nerf. I agree… people care about fairness. I don’t see why it’s only fair when people can not be killed quickly in a 1v2 on their own class though >.>

Um, you seem to be the one giving the slanted account. I said 50-50, and I think that’s fair given that there are variations in skill level and performance (depending on external factors) between players who have ‘OK’ skills.

Also, NPC guard and thief vs. a player is not a 2v1. This is not theory crafting. And my point is we should be talking about spontaneous fights that actually happen in WvW all the time. Their spontaneity gives stealthed players (with stealth-related bonuses on top of the element of surprise) a pretty large advantage. Assuming players of equal skill, clearly the player who hits first and does significant damage (and then disappears for a short while) has an advantage. This seems obvious and yet so many people are not honest enough to admit it. I wonder why.

aelflune.8590:

Um, you seem to be the one giving the slanted account. I said 50-50, and I think that’s fair given that there are variations in skill level and performance (depending on external factors) between players who have ‘OK’ skills.

Also, NPC guard and thief vs. a player is not a 2v1. This is not theory crafting. And my point is we should be talking about spontaneous fights that actually happen in WvW all the time. Their spontaneity gives stealthed players (with stealth-related bonuses on top of the element of surprise) a pretty large advantage. Assuming players of equal skill, clearly the player who hits first and does significant damage (and then disappears for a short while) has an advantage. This seems obvious and yet so many people are not honest enough to admit it. I wonder why.

@ The part in bold… the dev’s aren’t here to make you win. If some one beats you due to skill… get better.

Idk where this NPC stuff came in… I never talked about a NPC. I never talked about theory crafting. I did talk about balance and a little on game design though.

I recover from large initial bursts all the time. If you can’t then that’s something you need to work on. It’s going to happen regardless of stealth and the class you fight. Some times I allow for it to happen knowing that I can recover from it (thus causing the other player to overcommit).

I was looking up engineer builds today. Came across something that illustrates this very well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_104529&feature=iv&src_vid=LhX5Va53nqc&v=PjwUe06GRhk

Skip to 5m17s in. It’s even got commentary on how he did it and was able to recover and defeat his opponent. Although it’s a bit old… it’s back when pistol whip hit like a kitten truck and thieves were quite a bit stronger overall.

It doesn’t matter who starts the fight, just how you play during it. This seems obvious and yet so many people are not honest enough to admit it. I wonder why.

With all of the things to complain about balance wise… thief is really one of your lesser worries in WvW right now unless you are still at the low end of the skill spectrum.

Okay, it seems you have problems comprehending and following an argument, so this is not going to be constructive. But I’ll give it one last try.

You arbitrarily decided that in an average fight between average players, the thief is probably going to lose. I contended that this is a skewed picture and that 50-50 seems more reasonable partly due to variations in skill and performance (which is affected by other factors such as tiredness, the exact combat situation, builds, etc) among players who are not that far off from one another skill-wise. That isn’t the point, though, but you decided to seize on this bit and reply with a “l2p” statement as is the custom here.

The point, which you missed, is that stealth gives an opening advantage to the thief. Yes, 1 player will have the initiative at the beginning of combat, but stealth almost always ensures that the thief has it. This is a clear advantage, doubly-so if the other player is not aware that there is a thief about because the thief is completely invisible (in my previous example, I am fighting an NPC guard when a thief appears out of nowhere and backstabs me). There is no one else who has such an advantage. Couple this with thief’s great burst potential and its ability to reset the fight if necessary, it means that it is much more likely for the other non-thief player to lose due to a mistake given somewhat equal skill levels. Conversely, a thief still has a high chance of getting away even if he makes a mistake.

This is why there is a perception that fights against thieves are unfair. If you still want to reply with l2p or a verbal demonstration of your pro gaming skills, then I have nothing more to say.

Aberrant.6749:

EPIC Vs EPIC – Thief in the corner crying “please make the bad man stop” while rocking back and forth.

Epic comment about epicness is.. err… epic!

aelflune.8590:

The point, which you missed, is that stealth gives an opening advantage to the thief. Yes, 1 player will have the initiative at the beginning of combat, but stealth almost always ensures that the thief has it. This is a clear advantage, doubly-so if the other player is not aware that there is a thief about because the thief is completely invisible (in my previous example, I am fighting an NPC guard when a thief appears out of nowhere and backstabs me). There is no one else who has such an advantage.

i’d like to comment on this part here. the thief is an ambush class. what you described is an ambush situation. that’s exactly where a thief is supposed to have the advantage. if the ambush class didn’t have an advantage in ambush situation, while being at a disadvantage in most other situation (like the thief is currently), that class would be completely worthless. also, if a player is unaware that a thief is around, that has more to do with their own perception than anything else. even the d/p build leaves clues that the thief is around (the red ring from black powder, for example). someone who pays attention to their surroundings is actively protecting themselves against thieves. those who don’t are leaving themselves wide open to get ambushed by the ambush class.

and yeah, even an NPC counts against you in a 1vX argument. there are two enemies you have to kill. it doesn’t matter that one happens to be controlled by AI. it’s still two things trying to kill you. meaning, you’ve found yourself at a numerical disadvantage. the only reason you should have a chance to win that fight is through superior play against a very bad player controlled second enemy. if player skill is evenly matched, the person who has any allies on their side, whether they’re player or AI controlled, should win the fight. even if it’s a upleveled ranger and an NPC guard against you, you’re at the same disadvantage. balance is NOT being able to take on two enemies at once, choosing to ignore the ambush class while fighting an NPC, getting ambushed by the ambush class while focusing on the NPC, and winning. that’s poor play and self entitlement.

The overwhelming problem is for a good thief there is no risk in a fight. You can opt to reset or escape the moment things go wrong, and it takes a great deal to catch and finish you.

Your not punished in the same way others are, and with the exception of mesmer, others cannot drop and re-enage as effectively.

A thief can run away from you, but you can’t run away from a thief, and it is a perfectly valid and widely used tactic for a thief to hit some to force them to burn CD’s, escape, and then come back.

That’s the issue, and the core of it is stealth.

If you push in or ambush and fail to kill then you should die, but that does not happen a lot of the time, which makes fighting thiefs extremely frustrating.

I’m searching for a thief-hate-thread,
I guess I’m right here?

aelflune.8590:

Okay, it seems you have problems comprehending and following an argument, so this is not going to be constructive. But I’ll give it one last try.

You arbitrarily decided that in an average fight between average players, the thief is probably going to lose. I contended that this is a skewed picture and that 50-50 seems more reasonable partly due to variations in skill and performance (which is affected by other factors such as tiredness, the exact combat situation, builds, etc) among players who are not that far off from one another skill-wise. That isn’t the point, though, but you decided to seize on this bit and reply with a “l2p” statement as is the custom here.

The point, which you missed, is that stealth gives an opening advantage to the thief. Yes, 1 player will have the initiative at the beginning of combat, but stealth almost always ensures that the thief has it. This is a clear advantage, doubly-so if the other player is not aware that there is a thief about because the thief is completely invisible (in my previous example, I am fighting an NPC guard when a thief appears out of nowhere and backstabs me). There is no one else who has such an advantage. Couple this with thief’s great burst potential and its ability to reset the fight if necessary, it means that it is much more likely for the other non-thief player to lose due to a mistake given somewhat equal skill levels. Conversely, a thief still has a high chance of getting away even if he makes a mistake.

This is why there is a perception that fights against thieves are unfair. If you still want to reply with l2p or a verbal demonstration of your pro gaming skills, then I have nothing more to say.

No I understood what you were saying. I disagree and showed you why in a video. I told you that I purposefully allow this to occur to gain an advantage out of it. If you need more info on how to do that for any of the classes I play I can explain… but you don’t seem to be interested in tactics. I didn’t just say l2p, I told you how to counter this type of ambush. You’re just repeating yourself and saying it’s inherently OP to be invisible regardless of the average outcome in an even skilled fight. That’s not reasonable.

LasergunsPewPew.8234:

I’m searching for a thief-hate-thread,
I guess I’m right here?

Yup, WvW =’s lower skilled players hating on thieves 24/7. Just ignore the serious problems in WvW, some one got ganked.

Karast.1927:

The overwhelming problem is for a good thief there is no risk in a fight. You can opt to reset or escape the moment things go wrong, and it takes a great deal to catch and finish you.

Your not punished in the same way others are, and with the exception of mesmer, others cannot drop and re-enage as effectively.

A thief can run away from you, but you can’t run away from a thief, and it is a perfectly valid and widely used tactic for a thief to hit some to force them to burn CD’s, escape, and then come back.

That’s the issue, and the core of it is stealth.

If you push in or ambush and fail to kill then you should die, but that does not happen a lot of the time, which makes fighting thiefs extremely frustrating.

I was roaming on EBG on my lvl 21 ranger the other day. I got ganked by all kinds of different classes and escaped every…..single…..time. Stealth is not the reason players escape fights.

It isn’t the reason thieves escape fights in 99% of occasions. MOBILITY is the supreme escape tool. Thieves are one of if not the most mobile in-combat class in game.

Saying “You’re not punished the same as other classes” is absurd. Why should we be punished the same as other classes? We don’t have the same skillset as other classes, so how could we have their drawbacks.

Guardians – Stupidly Tanky and Utilitarian but lacks mobility

Warrior – High HP, High access to CC, high damage, high mobility, low healing

Ele – High Healing, High Damage Mitigation, Strong AOE Damage, High Utility, High mobility in some specs, but low hp I guess (what are ee’s bad at again?)

Mesmer – High Utility, High Evasion/Deception, High Mitigation, can be specced for High Burst, low hp

Necro – High HP, High Soft AREA CC, Strong Damage, High Sustain, High Group Utility, Strong Boon Hate, Low mobility

Ranger – Strong Regeneration, High Range, Solid Mobility, Can get very tanky, but pets are worthless mostly.

Engineer – I honestly don’t know much about engie except that is it strong king of the hill and can condition load like a boss.

Thief – High Mobility, High Spike Damage, High Deception/Evasion, but low utility, low hp, low mitigation, low cc, low RANGE (only class with no 1200 option), low build diversity

Every class has strengths and weaknesses. Pretending thief doesn’t just because you got caught with your pants down is what is truly unfair. Almost every single thief QQ thread has one thing in common. It starts with “I was roaming by myself and got caught with my junk in my hands then I stood around jerkin it and the thief spiked me. QQ NERF OP CUZ CAN’T SEE WUT DO”.

Every day someone complains about something new. Every day people overlook the obvious:

If you are walking around alone you are likely going to die to a strong roaming duelist class. It’s the only place thief’s strengths shine in pvp. Don’t like dying? Stop walking around alone with blinders on.

Renxian.6982:

Engineer – I honestly don’t know much about engie except that is it strong king of the hill and can condition load like a boss.

It’s biggest boon is it’s flexibility. It has a tool for everything. Combo fields and blast finishers like a boss. It does require good knowledge of these fields (not for noobs). It can also be high dps (static discharge) condition (pistol pistol hgh) CC (tons of knockbacks) support (water fields and aoe condition cleanses)… it tends to be more of a point holder… but that’s not to say that it can’t roam (I roam on mine). It’s the most fun class for me atm… but I’m an alt-a-holic.

So, two thieves decide to troll a small zerg and they win? Last time two thieves tried to troll my thief I laughed and ripped them to pieces. If they were playing S/P there is no way they could achieve perma stealth since that weapon set doesn’t have access to stealth…. I guess they were running D/P. just make it impossible for stealth to stack so they can only get 3(4) seconds of stealth – there you got the fix to perma stealth. Only problem is Anet refuse to see this and they just keep destroying all other parts of the thief, except for those builds people are complaining about. W2G Anet…

you all make fun of this guy, but truth is if a decent/ to good player is behind a permastealth thief they CANT be killed . So yes stealth does need to be reworked, gw2 is the only game that helps stealthers restealth and stealth and stealth again over and over.

Terrahero.9358:

shadowraith.9124:

Most popular and successful mmo of all time has had perma stealth since release and has kept it across 4 expansions.

I think we can end these discussions now.

While in Stealth a Rogue moves slower, unless specced for stealth speed. A Thief runs just as fast as everyone else, if specced for stealth speed he’ll be faster then anything.

A Rogue takes damage, even from a DoT, and his stealth will be broken. A Thief doesnt not exit Stealth when taking damage. Even getting downed doesnt cause a Thief to lose Stealth.

Re-stealthing for a Rogue meant leaving combat or blowing lengthy cooldowns. Restealthing for a Thief comes on abilities with no cooldown and a cost low enough to resealth everytime Revealed fades. Abilities with a cooldown are still much lower by comparison.

A Rogue has limited gapclosers, either they need to be specced for or they come with a lenghty cooldown, or both. A Thief has a multitude of gapclosers on low cooldown or no cooldown at all.

Looks like a Rogue in “the most popular MMO ever” has quite a few drawbacks a Thief does not have. So are you really sure you want to go and compare to “the most popular mMO evar”? Because that just shows how silly Stealth in GW2 is.

From what you are saying i can see that you never played a rogue. Ever.
I’m kind of tired now but should you wish so, i can disprove every single point.