Guild Wars 2

More ignorant Eliticism.

A zerk theif gets incredible burst because they have the unique ability to be able to burst down bunkers. If you’re not a full bunker and you get blown up by a thief, the blame is on you for not being aware of surroundings and/or having no team support. I don’t say that to be mean—basically, once you start taking responsibility for losing battles is when you can start to improve your game. Take your knocks, get up, and try harder next time. Happy hunting!

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

And another elitist * joins to be a wonderful contributor to the conversation. Anatolian, I’ve covered all of your “points” before. Do please read context before trying to compare kittens.

As to Besetment, and Naphack: Thank you for your tips, but I doubt I’ll go back to WvW any time soon, Necro is too unviable there sadly.

Edit: Lifwaster, that is correct, I did forget to use food buffs.

Necro is very viable in WvW but you need to be very careful roaming around on your own. Having so little mobility, you can’t really get out of fights you no longer want to be in.

The upside is that if you have team support to get you in and out safely, your ranged damage is incredible and you can turn a huge amount of an enemy team’s condition pressure against them. I’m not joking when I say a couple of necros can melt zergs.

The classes most suited to solo roaming in WvW all have very high mobility and lots of escapes + control.

Chopps, being aware of your surroundings only goes so far.

Anatolian Turk.4057:

Besetment.9187:

Hes not really QQing. Hes asking if there are any reliable counters to this kind of thief play and well, there isn’t really. The mechanics are stacked against the necro player on this one. It doesn’t mean you can’t win under any circumstances – the other player might make serious mistakes. You might get ganked on very favourable terrain. But these things are largely out of your control.

“*Hes not really QQing.* ". Are you serious? im going to copy paste what the OP said in his/her first post.
“Thieves go to hell… I just spent FIVE minutes in WvW, and I now hate EVERY thief on the planet that even so much as THINKS of heartseeker or stealth. What the hell is this? Stealth every half second? Healing in stealth every half second? This is absolute nonsense.”

If thats not QQing then i dont know what is.

Yeah, it’s QQing. But it’s QQing followed by a request for advice. That shows a certain amount of character, which I can respect.

I love how everyone that says that the problem might lie with the OP suddenly is a “ignorant elitist”.

Why would you start a thread on a forum if you can’t accept that you are not the best player in the world and can make mistakes?

It was a heavy amount of frustration by losing to an essential faceroller that lacked a significant amount of skill that I’ve come to know and respect in the tPvP community, but still having no chance at winning that battle. I was, however, very eager to know if there was a way to beat these things in WvW and I was just bad at it.

Also, LordKrall because I’ve seen your posts, and many of the posts of the other players in this thread that I have referred to as “Elitists” who are very quick to jump onto the “l2p” bandwagon rather than be actually helpful as many people here have been. Honestly, I believe you are more of a hinder to these forums than a help.

When someone is frustrated enough to “QQ” while still being sensible enough to ask for advice/help, it is generally admitted one should understand his/her point of view, rather than do what you have done this entire time and go “nou”/“l2p”.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Chopps, being aware of your surroundings only goes so far.

I know, and I like to roam, which is why I run bunker ranger. A full bloodlust thief can get the jump on me but I will still have roughly 700 life—even after the stunlock into heartseeker initial mugging. At that point, I typically run! But if I dodge that initial attack (I don’t always because everyone makes mistakes), then I can proceed to lay him to rest. I typically “bury” thieves with a flame ram tomb and bow because any time a theif loses is a tragic event worthy of rememberance. Muahahahaha

PinCushion.7390:

Yeah, it’s QQing. But it’s QQing followed by a request for advice. That shows a certain amount of character, which I can respect.

A person who’s flaming another class because he/she lost one duel in a wvw environment deserves no respect. He’s telling us go to hell, so i dont think he’s going to get much respect from me or anyone.

Necros in my guild are the anchor. Buff shears, aoe conditions, great survivability.. Almost every tactical leader has one. But yes, I would say the build they run leaves them somewhat exposed to thieves. But lucky for them, if they die it’s near certain most of their group did too. You need a guild, OP

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Also, LordKrall because I’ve seen your posts, and many of the posts of the other players in this thread that I have referred to as “Elitists” who are very quick to jump onto the “l2p” bandwagon rather than be actually helpful as many people here have been. Honestly, I believe you are more of a hinder to these forums than a help.

You do know that the kind of posts you make: “I am awesome in tPvP and I make no faults at all” makes you look very much like an elitist yourself right?

Someon who says that mesmers are below average in teamplay, does not even know how the games mechanics work.

Period.

A Mesmer in a point heavily bomarded by group AoE/Conditions cannot get enough clones up to help pick his nose, let alone get a solid shatter up. Once again

“When someone is frustrated enough to “QQ” while still being sensible enough to ask for advice/help, it is generally admitted one should understand his/her point of view, rather than do what you have done this entire time and go “nou”/“l2p”.”

I have a feeling that I have helped more people ingame learning Necro for PvP than either of you have helped anyone in your entire lives on forums for anything.

I asked for help defeating Thieves in WvW, and I am forced to defend myself against constant recycled verbal attacks. Amazing. Yes, I dislike Thieves in WvW. Yes I was frustrated in the beginning. Yes I believe I had more skill than the Thief who beat me. I’d even go as far to say because I generally play nothing but tPvP (and use all classes) I have above average skill. Gee, imagine that.

Any other points you’d like to make?

I am unfamiliar using Necro in WvW. I am unfamiliar with WvW in general. So I ask for a strategy/build or anything to help even the odds stacked against me. What exactly am I doing to offend your Magistrates?

Zumy.6318:

Someon who says that mesmers are below average in teamplay, does not even know how the games mechanics work.

Period.

Well it’s not like they can share boons or anything. They can’t stealth. They can’t pull people. Mesmers are terribad in groups /s

I am mostly a roaming WvW necro. I play in Tier 1 and got tired of my condition spam being cleansed, so I decided to try a power build. My power build feels like it’s much better against the type of thieves that you’re talking about. With the condi build, they just stealth and cleanse and come back. With a power burst build, I can take down some of these guys. I think it may be mostly that I surprise them though. I do die fairly easily but a lot of that is because I’m not very good yet.

I would say that using a staff, except possibly at the beginning of the fight to lay down marks, in a 1v1 vs. a thief is making life hard on you. Staff 1 projectile (all our projectiles actually) is very slow and silly. It’s more for zerg operations because it is a penetrating projectile.

EDIT: Just wanted to mention too that in pve/wvw (it is not there in sPvP) there is a bug that gives necromancers significantly less downed hp than other classes. Targuil has done research on it and posted in the necromancer and bug forums. So getting downed in WvW is almost a guaranteed loss.

Mesmer is the strongest class to have around in a 5vs5. Either condi or shattercat. Doesnt matter.

In 20vs20 having glamourbombs will make you win without one single casualty.

And this is the person criticizing me for ignorance in game mechanics?

Boy, this is WvW, where confusion ticks for up to 30k if you dodge. Go home!

Guys, can you stop dismissing him as a troll or a raging kid?
He’s pretty much one of the first guys ever to not fly into a rage when told to maybe not bother fighting the thief on his conditions at all. Even more, he thanked me, which is a first.
He might have some kind of warped view on skill, but that’s to expect from a tPvP player.

@TMA:
The transition from tPvP to WvW is probably very similar to the transition from amateur boxing to a street fight. At one point, it’s all about the skill, pretty much like a game of chess, with everyone playing pretty much the same cards and having the same tactics at their disposal, while in the new environment suddenly some very crude concepts and self-taught techniques become viable again. The scale is bigger, the opponents more unpredictable and sometimes, they behave in ways, you did not even think were possible and get away with it.

That’s what WvW is. tPvP is the controlled environment with strict regulations, where you dance around some circle, evading eachothers attacks, while WvW is a brutal environment, where opponents slug it out till they can not move anymore and use every tactic known to them to carry away the win.

So until you get some wider scope of what you regard as skill, comments like the ones you receive here will probably come up a lot.

And yes, in WvW, confusion deals about twice the damage, it does in PvP.

There is not a single condition in the game that single ticks for 30,000 damage. If there is, it is blindingly overpowered and needs a nerf.

Since you admittedly don’t WvW a lot, there are a few other things you can do in WvW that you can’t do in sPvP that might help. Most of these you might be aware of, but I’ll go down the list anyway.

1) Kill bunnies and squirrels for Life Force. You can be 100% Life Force when you leave the portal keep every time.

2) Use a Sigil of Bloodlust on a spare weapon and farm mobs near the home keep for +Power stacks. You can have 25 stack before you get far away from the home keep, and can have 10 per supply camp flip if you can’t bother wasting the time killing mobs.

3) Use Food/Wrench buffs

4) Use (some) consumable PvE items from your inventory. It’ll take some research and experimentation to find which ones you like that still work, but there’s a Pot of Hylek Poison that gives swiftness and still worked last I checked. Here’s a list.

http://dulfy.net/2013/01/16/gw2-useful-and-fun-consumables-guide/

5) Swap utility skills/traits between fights, or just before you engage.

6) Waypoint out of an imminent defeat if you catch it before combat starts.

7) Use racial utility skills. I play a Norn, and the Snow Leopard elite has saved my tail many times with stealth + huge charge range.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

There is not a single condition in the game that single ticks for 30,000 damage. If there is, it is blindingly overpowered and needs a nerf.

25 stacks of confusion by mightstacked mesmers will tick for around 10-14k per tick. If an Ele just dodges, it will tick twice

When running around in wvw, you have to have a high amount of toughness. Is it annoying?
Yes.
Is it frustrating because other classes have mechanics that allow them to avoid using defensive stats and manage to be effective in combat?
Yes.
Can you take solace in knowing that you are playing one of the weakest classes out there?
Yes.

I will say this, coming from from SPvP you should know how to avoid the CnD/Mug + Backstab combo. You see the thief running at you waving his off-hand like a trained monkey just dodge and you’ll be fine. =D

PinCushion.7390:

1) Kill bunnies and squirrels for Life Force. You can be 100% Life Force when you leave the portal keep every time.

This needs to be nerfed.

Just kidding.

Chopps.5047:

A zerk theif gets incredible burst because they have the unique ability to be able to burst down bunkers. If you’re not a full bunker and you get blown up by a thief, the blame is on you for not being aware of surroundings and/or having no team support. I don’t say that to be mean—basically, once you start taking responsibility for losing battles is when you can start to improve your game. Take your knocks, get up, and try harder next time. Happy hunting!

The thing about necro is that you don’t have many ways to avoid or ignore damage. Taking damage in shroud hurts you (because it restricts access to one of your fears and one of your only teleports). It may extend your life but having low life force puts you on the defensive.

Contrast that with a Guardian that has burst invulns like Shelter, Renewed Focus, Aegis, Shield of Wrath etc. You completely ignore direct damage (regardless of its magnitude) and you can still be offensive.

Its difficult to explain unless you play a necro. Losing control of your life force generation is a very big deal. Its never something you want to use to extend your life, if it can be avoided.

If I have 25 stacks (Or incredibly long duration, rather) of any damaging condition in the game on you, you’re essentially dead. Mesmer confusion is no different, and is actually significantly harder to stack in such quantities.

I don’t need to be a WvW expert to know you’re full of it. Stop insulting me over my game mechanic knowledge.

Also, Dynnen: I easily avoided the initial Thief burst, it was clear as daylight (Which is why I say the Thief I was fighting wasn’t nearly as skilled as some PvP Thieves I fight), however, after that everything went downhill. I couldn’t do any damage to him due to his stealth mitigation, and he was wearing me down.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

And another elitist * joins to be a wonderful contributor to the conversation. Anatolian, I’ve covered all of your “points” before. Do please read context before trying to compare kittens.

As to Besetment, and Naphack: Thank you for your tips, but I doubt I’ll go back to WvW any time soon, Necro is too unviable there sadly.

Edit: Lifwaster, that is correct, I did forget to use food buffs.

TheMighty,

I have played a lot of TPVP as well, and if you are anything like me or most other TPVP players you love a challenge, I think that you will come back to WvW, and destroy that thief with a new build/gear set. Accept the challenge and adapt and murder that fool like we do in TPVP. The best TPVP players as you know adapt constantly when the meta changes.

If you need any help hit me up. I don’t doubt your skill and I know how frustrating it can be to play at high level compettitve pvp and then get shocked in WvW. The Ruleset is different and you weren’t used to it. No biggie, swallow your pride and embrace the challenge.

Also what weapon set was the thief running? Might be able to help more with that knowledge.

It was the meta D/P stealth setup. I was constantly being blinded and stealthed, made it a war of attrition a Necromancer should’ve been able to win but couldn’t. Also I’m finally glad someone here understood exactly where I was coming from. I might just hit you up on that offer (Not now, atm, as I’m about to go to bed.)

So, when I am talking about groupplay in wvw and 20vs20 with 7 glamourbombs, you wont have 25 stacks of confusion on you?

Haha :-D.

Now tell me how it will feel to walk through 7 fields that stack 2 confusions on you instantly (->14) every time you walk in or out, walking over portal exit and entrance that will stack 4 confusions on you for each mesmer, getting projectile finishers on you that will stack another 8 stacks of confusions on you. And all of this time you will be permablinded and stuff.

Tell me, how many conditionremoves are you able to use in 5 seconds? Knowing that any time you use one conditionremove you will get 10,000 damage in your face?

Welcome to WvW mate. You dont know nothing.

This build doesnt even work this way in tPvP…

Dynnen.6405:

When running around in wvw, you have to have a high amount of toughness. Is it annoying?
Yes.
Is it frustrating because other classes have mechanics that allow them to avoid using defensive stats and manage to be effective in combat?
Yes.
Can you take solace in knowing that you are playing one of the weakest classes out there?
Yes.

I will say this, coming from from SPvP you should know how to avoid the CnD/Mug + Backstab combo. You see the thief running at you waving his off-hand like a trained monkey just dodge and you’ll be fine. =D

Ding ding ding, we have a winner!

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

tl;dr – Thieves go to hell, someone tell me how to win as Necro.

I’m a tPvP player. I just spent FIVE minutes in WvW, and I now hate EVERY thief on the planet that even so much as THINKS of heartseeker or stealth. What the hell is this? Stealth every half second? Healing in stealth every half second? This is absolute nonsense.

Is there even a way for me as a Necro to beat these bad players without needing 4 people backing me up? Is it even possible? I would really like to know.

I wasn’t up leveled, and I had full exotic gear. My build is incredibly strong against thieves and generally all players in tPvP. But this… this was just stupid.

Then a Thief had the NERVE to say he was UP.

I recommend that you go to the necro subforum and seek advice there on how to counter wvw thieves. What are you trying to accomplish here with your rant post?

25 stacks of bleed, 20 seconds of poison, 30+ seconds of burn > 25 stacks of confusion.

Mesmers bring very little to the table in group fights. Especially in PvP. I’m definitely not an expert in WvW, but I know how Mesmer works as it is infact my third best class.

What you’re implying, is a zerg comprised entirely of facerolling confusion spammers. Unorthodox, impractical. A full zerg comprised of any other class would generally out-condition a Mesmer.

Ok, just lol. Really just lol.

Besetment.9187:

Chopps.5047:

A zerk theif gets incredible burst because they have the unique ability to be able to burst down bunkers. If you’re not a full bunker and you get blown up by a thief, the blame is on you for not being aware of surroundings and/or having no team support. I don’t say that to be mean—basically, once you start taking responsibility for losing battles is when you can start to improve your game. Take your knocks, get up, and try harder next time. Happy hunting!

The thing about necro is that you don’t have many ways to avoid or ignore damage. Taking damage in shroud hurts you (because it restricts access to one of your fears and one of your only teleports). It may extend your life but having low life force puts you on the defensive.

Contrast that with a Guardian that has burst invulns like Shelter, Renewed Focus, Aegis, Shield of Wrath etc. You completely ignore direct damage (regardless of its magnitude) and you can still be offensive.

Its difficult to explain unless you play a necro. Losing control of your life force generation is a very big deal. Its never something you want to use to extend your life, if it can be avoided.

Dodge / flesh worm / spectral walk? After he misses the first burst, bleed him to death. Chill him and run to safety? Maybe give him weakness/blind? I’m not sure, I’ll ask talentless next time I log on.

Sigh alot of people giving opinions/criticizing for things they know not. Well guys, for those of you that helped me, I thank you kindly.

For those of you that are Elitist, Annoying, or overall anti-helpful, good day.

You did not see the meta of this game in WvW did you?

You just think you are that tPvP player that comes to WvW and because of that you will be pro :-D.

Dude you might be good at capping and holding blue and red circles, but here you are just being ignorant.

How many other conditions do you know, that will take away 50% of your healthbar by just removing it?

Go home or get an open mind, mister pointholder.

A lot of thieves in WvW I come across are glass cannon builds so if you can root them for a few seconds in your wells they go down quick. I run staff and D/W power build and after they backstab or heartseeker(lol at thives that open with heartseeker) me they are usually visable for a few seconds. between the staff slow and dagger3 root they are usually downed before my wells are done. If they do manage to get back into stealth they are really low health and I just mark up the ground, They usually reappear downed.

As far as a few folks giving someone guff for coming from PvP > WvW and having issues:
Fact is, I understand his problem. I’m ~80% WvW, 15% PvE, 5% PvP. Going from WvW > PvP throws my calculations off, fight/buildwise. I’m sure the reverse is just as much a P.I.T.A. Luckily for him, we’re the WvW addicts. As such, we can supply logistics for this kind of situation. So, why be harsh?

To the OP:
A few things you should keep in mind:
– gear/Lvl makes a HUGE difference in WvW. If you say you didnt have the “full-build” then it will be easy for a lot of people to kill you. (Even if its easy for you to kill some other people)
– tPvP/sPvP taticts are very different from WvW and even from roaming WvW. With the gear variation you can get on WvW(PvE) there is a HUGE difference in how classes can play. What I’m saying here is that something you might think it works on sPvP might be nothing special on WvW (and vice versa). The way thief plays in this two scenarios is vastly different, so if you are good against thiefs in sPvP doesn’t make you good against them in WvW.
– If you didn’t know thiefs can stealth for that long, then you need to do more research on the class. Knowing what weapons the thief is using is very important to know how he is going to stealth and what is he going to do when he comes out.

– As a necro, its going to be hard for you to kill a (good?)thief in WvW. As any other class that lacks control+burst. The thief defense is to stealth to heal and remove conditions so it can stay on the fight. If you try to kill a thief with conditions or low dmg (outlasting it) he will just go away and find another target or try to get you on a better time.
– For a necro to not be killed by a thief he needs to force the thief in the fields (marks, wells, GTAoE, etc) to apply enough pressure so the thief has to retreat (not so hard, thief has very low health and will need to stealth and hold his attacks all the time to remove conditions and heal).
– If the thief is too greedy, it might die for not leaving the fight when he could. If you are too greedy, you might die for giving chase when you should have stayed in the center of that mine-field of wells and marks.

The thief (at least most of the stealth using builds) are good to get GC that are alone or on small uncoordinated groups. But it fails badly to take down most of bunker specs and will kill itself agains most Guards/Engi (retaliation). But against some bunkers the thief can survive (most of the times) their dmg long enough to decide to leave the fight and run off.
A D/D Ele can also decide to leave a fight, but when a thief does it, the opponents don’t know for sure if its gone and where, this leaves some people very angry.

To effectively kill a thief you need a good burst and control (and maybe some good active defense). Not letting it stealth or move around and beeing able to dmg it while its stealthed (as using AoE) is usually the best. This combination of defense, burst and control is mostly seen in mesmers. A mesmer can avoid a thiefs burst with his multitude of invuls, and then daze/stun/immo the thief and burst it quick. Most other classes lack such combination, but organized groups not so much.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Yes I understand sPvP and the like are completely different, but I outmatched him in skill, he was making beginner’s mistakes with his Thief… he just.. was CONSTANTLY in stealth. I received backstab like 5 times.

Does anyone have any sort of strategy for fighting these things?

Welcome to the WvW Thief, you’d better get used to that fast, be greatful your only starting WvW now, as before they could perma stealth and sit in a corner and prevent capping of points.

Can’t we just all agree that near perma-stealth is probably not very “fair” AND retaliation and confusion should stack duration? Then, everybody wins!

Zosk.5609:

Can’t we just all agree that near perma-stealth is probably not very “fair” AND retaliation and confusion should stack duration? Then, everybody wins!

I don’t want to derail this conversation too far but what’s your opinion on stability stacking rather than having duration?

Lets all go back to “Hello Kitty Online”.

Zumy.6318:

Lets all go back to “Hello Kitty Online”.

That’s every night for me! Say hello to my little friend: a jaguar. I even have pink hair.

Ok I Did It.2854:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Yes I understand sPvP and the like are completely different, but I outmatched him in skill, he was making beginner’s mistakes with his Thief… he just.. was CONSTANTLY in stealth. I received backstab like 5 times.

Does anyone have any sort of strategy for fighting these things?

Welcome to the WvW Thief, you’d better get used to that fast, be greatful your only starting WvW now, as before they could perma stealth and sit in a corner and prevent capping of points.

Lol they are reverting the stealth change from what I understand.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Revealed-Debuff-to-be-Reverted-in-PvE-and-WvW/first#post1855346

Chopps.5047:

Zosk.5609:

Can’t we just all agree that near perma-stealth is probably not very “fair” AND retaliation and confusion should stack duration? Then, everybody wins!

I don’t want to derail this conversation too far but what’s your opinion on stability stacking rather than having duration?

I think given the current paradigm of some buffs stacking duration and some stacking up (which I’m honestly not the biggest fan of)… I think it should stack duration since it’s a binary effect.

My thoughts on retaliation and confusion (and damage barbs/damage shield effects in general) is that they usually make games less fun and MMOs seem to take two paths..make them so minor that one wonders why they even bothered putting them in there in the first place. Or make them powerful at which case they become very frustrating for players..often frustrating to the point of making things non-fun or being arguably overpowered.

This game did the latter…the fast-pace of combat is saving them from too much nerfing as half the time in large-scale WvW combat people don’t even know what kills them anyway…. if they realized how much they died to stacks of retal and confusion for just dodging or trying to heal themselves or remove conditions they might take to the streets! (Virtually of course, nobody would have to put clothes on…)

Ahhh, those nice Jaguars, that die from one CnD.

(kidding)

I like how i swapped the topic to confusion. Not intended at all.