Guild Wars 2

I play ranger quite a lot.

What we need is for us to become invincible as soon as RF starts and then stealth us when it finishes for 3-7 seconds, removing all conditions and healing for half our stealth..oh wait, thief does that already (almost).

Rangers are easy to beat, just learn what type you are facing and learn to counter instead of coming on forums and trying to argue a skill is broken, when the real broken thing is stealth without penalty.

That troll ranger tho gg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZzbES7l2Ts

brust
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPR5kByTTrw

Coldtart.4785:

Do teefs not realise that they are not the only class where bad things happen if you get hit by rapid fire? Or that they aren’t even close to the most vulnerable to taking a full rapid fire to the face?

True, it is worse if you are necro. If death shroud is on CD, you are basically toast.

it really depends how good both players are

ranger don’t have the use a LB there also very good with GS or sword
also they can put traps

big problem for thief is the skill sick him a thief cant cloak for a while
so he is a open target for ranger

also ranger have a cloak skill on there LB
but it really depends how good both are

Osu.6307:

Coldtart.4785:

Do teefs not realise that they are not the only class where bad things happen if you get hit by rapid fire? Or that they aren’t even close to the most vulnerable to taking a full rapid fire to the face?

True, it is worse if you are necro. If death shroud is on CD, you are basically toast.

Nah, dire necro can beat ranger pretty easily if their death shroud is full. (which you can easily do so by hitting a random mob out there before engage, I seriously don’t get why any necro wouldn’t do that already.)

The HP, toughness is just too high that power ranger need to take quite some time to chip down, but all you need to do is land weakness, fear, and other conditions on him, and finish him with 1 combo. You have more margin of error than power ranger in that scenario. Once ranger got hit by your condition combo, he’s pretty much finished, unless his RaO is not on CD.

And if you’re talking about PVP, then it’s even easier for necro because there’re so many obstacles you can abuse on node to prevent LoS.

Funny thread.

1. OP has to learn to dodge.
2. The ranger defense brigade needs to stop defending the most brain dead low risk high reward class in the game.
3. D/D thief takes infinitely more skill to pull off that a LB ranger.

Either way it’s good to see the posters who rage about thieves scrambling to defend their class lol

choovanski.5462:

you wont take skills to counter whats killing you, and you wont dodge it.

I never said that. I said that the counters were not adequate to justify the mechanic.

choovanski.5462:

your idea of counterplay is demanding nerfs on the forums

Demanding a badly designed mechanic to be changed is not the same thing as demanding a nerf. When a thief demands that last refuge be changed they are essentially asking for buffs, yet no one complains about this because it is widely accepted that last refuge is a badly designed mechanic that should be changed. The idea of changing channeled skills is in a similar category: it is badly designed and should be changed. This is not demanding a nerf, this is demanding a fix that happens to nerf rangers as a side effect. Fixing last refuge is a fix to a bad mechanic that happens to buff thief as a side effect.

choovanski.5462:

bet this guy has never seen the shadow step steal combos dang dude you play thief and can’t close 1500

I actually do use this (including against rangers), but this doesn’t do anything to change that channeled skills following in stealth is bad.

Prysin.8542:

snip

I never said that rangers were OP or that I have difficulties fighting rangers. I have only said that channeled skills following through stealth is a poor design. Now please actually read what I have said before making a fool of yourself by jumping to conclusions.

zinkz.7045:

You have offered nothing but equivocation and whining due to your inability to play.

Please do tell where I have equivocated.

You don’t seem to understand what ad hominem means. I accuse you of ad hominem, then you go and make an ad hominem remark?

ad hominem
1. directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining
Source: Oxford Dictionaries

ad hominem
1. appealing to one’s prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one’s intellect or reason
2. attacking an opponent’s character than than answering his argument.
Source: dictionary.com

Saying that my “whining” is due to my “inability to play” is an ad hominem remark. Now please refrain from making these types of remarks in the future.

zinkz.7045:

game mechanics do not follow some strict “logical” code, which is why your entire argument is simply fallacious.

I have never claimed that it did. I have explained this several times already and I will do so again because you don’t seem to listen:

“Again, i meant mechanics logic. As in: this skill was designed with this in mind.”
“When I said “logic”, i meant the reasoning behind skill design and balance, not realism and science.”
“Now next please read between the lines and realize that I did not mean fantasy logic when i said logic.”

Especially the 2nd one, I repeat it again for emphasis:
“When I said “logic”, i meant the reasoning behind skill design and balance, not realism and science.”
Example: Thief does not have weapon cooldowns because they have the initiative mechanic, which makes cooldowns unnecessary. <—— that is what I meant by logic.

Terrahero.9358:

Where it was explained that this [channeled skills following in stealth] was a deliberate design choice

Please source.

Terrahero.9358:

Working as Intented.

Even if this is true, this doesn’t change my argument. If backstab did 100k damage and anet says that it is “working as intended”, that doesn’t change that backstab would be incredibly OP. (Note: I am not saying that rapid fire is OP)

Jim Hunter.6821:

When you are stealthed they have nothing to target, you are virtually immune to projectiles at that point.

Ironic because my argument is that you’re not immune to projectiles in stealth because rapid fire follows.

Jim Hunter.6821:

And how is dagger storm worthless? Seems to me a skill that removes a weakness from your build is worth having

You mean that I should be required to run an certain elite in order to properly counter a single ability of a single weaponset of a single class? It’s not even a good counter: its a 90s CD elite protecting against a skill with a 10/8s CD. And it’s pretty bad against most other builds. It’s basically a “Kill me! I can’t protect myself!” kind of thing against most other builds that don’t have projectiles as a main source of damage. When I see an enemy thief do this I immediately open on them because they can’t defend themselves unless they cancel dagger storm.

T raw.4658:

Funny thread.

1. OP has to learn to dodge.
2. The ranger defense brigade needs to stop defending the most brain dead low risk high reward class in the game.
3. D/D thief takes infinitely more skill to pull off that a LB ranger.

Either way it’s good to see the posters who rage about thieves scrambling to defend their class lol

If only there’s no wall for D/D to infinitely stack up stealth when near a keep…
This should be fixed already…

Oh, btw, if ranger is so low risk high reward, they should be in the tournaments and WvW already lol… But guess which classes are the most plenty?
Thieves. Engineers. Warriors. Elementalists. Guardians.

And for WvW roaming, thieves number are like 5 times more than other classes. Pretty obvious that which class is the most low risk high reward in WvW lol.. Yet you and that Archon guy is defending the most broken class and crying about ranger because that “Sick-em” and “Rapid Fire”may screw you low risks folks up many times.

Toxsa.2701:

And for WvW roaming, thieves number are like 5 times more than other classes.

First, you cannot prove that claim.
Second, in my own experience I find rangers to be much more common that thieves; anecdotes don’t prove anything.

And glass thief is probably more risky than glass ranger. Ranger has the luxury of being able to (at least sometimes) sit in the back or use height advantage or hard to reach terrain from 1500 range to pew pew people from a distance and are actually most effective this way; in group fights this has the added benefit of having other people in front of you to protect you. Glass thief always has to go melee to be effective: their ranged damage is much less than ranger and they only have 900 range.

Archon.6481:

Toxsa.2701:

And for WvW roaming, thieves number are like 5 times more than other classes.

First, you cannot prove that claim.
Second, in my own experience I find rangers to be much more common that thieves; anecdotes don’t prove anything.

And glass thief is probably more risky than glass ranger. Ranger has the luxury of being able to (at least sometimes) sit in the back or use height advantage or hard to reach terrain from 1500 range to pew pew people from a distance and are actually most effective this way; in group fights this has the added benefit of having other people in front of you to protect you. Glass thief always has to go melee to be effective: their ranged damage is much less than ranger and they only have 900 range.

In group fight rangers are useless too, don’t use group fight as an example. Against a zerg, ranger’s range AOEs are just too weak, too scarce, and punished too harshly by retaliation. Rangers are almost always useless in T1 zerg fight.

I’m talking about solo roaming, which thieves are the most common. Idk which tier or game you’re playing, but thieves are the most common roamers for ages. You hold grudge on ranger only because we have “Sick-em” to screw up those bad-skill stealth reliant thieves. (Good thieves have huge advantage against power ranger, that’s a fact)

[[This is totally a side conversation about the role of rangers in WvW. Please do not interpret this as part of the general “Rangers are OP because stealth isn’t invuln!” argument or anything like that.]]

Toxsa.2701:

Rangers are almost always useless in T1 zerg fight.

You forgot about JOY, though.

Archon.6481:

Jim Hunter.6821:

When you are stealthed they have nothing to target, you are virtually immune to projectiles at that point.

Ironic because my argument is that you’re not immune to projectiles in stealth because rapid fire follows.

No you are complaining about being hit by a channeled skill that was activated before you were in stealth. Learn the difference.

Archon.6481:

Jim Hunter.6821:

And how is dagger storm worthless? Seems to me a skill that removes a weakness from your build is worth having

You mean that I should be required to run an certain elite in order to properly counter a single ability of a single weaponset of a single class? It’s not even a good counter: its a 90s CD elite protecting against a skill with a 10/8s CD. And it’s pretty bad against most other builds. It’s basically a “Kill me! I can’t protect myself!” kind of thing against most other builds that don’t have projectiles as a main source of damage. When I see an enemy thief do this I immediately open on them because they can’t defend themselves unless they cancel dagger storm.

It’s a whirl finisher that grants stability and reflects projectiles from all professions. You are by no means required to run it but if you keep complaining about dying to ranged attacks when you have a skill that’s main purpose is defense against ranged attacks….

How odd. My reaction on seeing a ranger is, “Oh, an easy kill.” not, “They’re OP.” No idea if:

• Something’s changed in the last few weeks, as I’ve been on hiatus
• I only ever have run into poorly-played rangers

… but I’d much rather see a ranger than a thief… even if they can’t kill me (and quite a few do), they’re just going to run away.

Archon.6481:

Saying that my “whining” is due to my “inability to play” is an ad hominem remark. Now please refrain from making these types of remarks in the future.

well considering you refuse to dodge any of the skill or slot dagger storm to fight rangers it is a L2P issue.

also, you know pistol 4 interrupts rapid fire right? you can just use that on them and not have to stealth.

does it really track through stealth? I know the channel will keep going after stealth is initiated (thats what they do). Wouldn’t going stealth and dodging once get you away from the hits? I mean it will fire regardless of a target, ive fired at nothing before (thats kinda depressing). Ive never played theif so im not exactly sure about this issue.

Archon.6481

Please source.

Beta forums got deleted before launch.

Archon.6481

Even if this is true, this doesn’t change my argument.

Your arguments are opinions, and they are either Rapid Fire is overpowered or Stealth is underpowered.

I disagree with both.

I think the moral of this long-winded moral of this story is thus:

1) Experienced players know that the ranger is a weak class in wvw. Therefore,
2) If you think rangers are OP, you either A) need more experience fighting rangers, or B ) keep running into top 1% kitten -kicking rangers.

I think A is more probable.

And remember, ANY class appears OP when played by a veteran with 1000 hours of wvw experience on that class.

ASP.8093:

When I clicked on this thread, I was kinda expecting something like:
“Why play thief on pick team when you can pick people off at range with a ranger?”
“As a thief, I’m getting constantly screwed by Sic ’Em.”
“I play condi troll thief but, man, condi rangers are immortal.”
Some complaint that, while maybe not well-founded, one could actually discuss back-and-forth, you know?

Instead, I see…
“I’m playing the glassiest one-shot build in the world and I don’t know what to do when I can’t quite kill my target and they one-shot me right back.”

:/

Rangers don’t have as much burst power. They really don’t. I know because both rangers and thieves constantly try to gank me, and the thieves demand much, much better reaction time on my part. (The frustration with rangers is more that their stupid rotation is really good at draining all your endurance quickly.)

So, I dunno, dodge a bit more? Pack a stun break? Do some silly Whirlwind Attack thing and laugh? If you’ve got your target at 20% hp after the first burst, basically the only thing that’s saving him is that you’re getting knocked down (and maybe Signet of Stone; you should have plenty of tools to wait it out, though).

Pretty much this.

I face thieves like this all the time in sPvP. Sure, they’re hella strong if I don’t have armour of earth or frost armour up, but if you’re playing such a glass cannon you deserve to get wasted if you get hit more than once. And you do. You don’t see zerker eles complaining “wah, I can burst a ranger to 20% hp and then his counterattack kills me OP OP pls nerf!” No, that ele puts on something with a little more protection and learns to dodge.

I do agree that stealth should break ranger’s autowinlongbow 2 button, but the overall tone of this thread is more thief whining that they should be able to infinitely hop in and out of stealth while killing any and all targets they attack in a flat 2 seconds. kitten off.

Just wanted to respond to this topic, as I have been reading it with a lot of interest.
I won’t go too much into the discussion how to counter RF as a thief, as I don’t have a lot of experience with both classes.
What I noticed, is that there are multiple discussions going on. The first one is the actual counter against RF as a thief, and the second one is channeling skills vs stealth.

I can see where Archon is coming from. Stealth in gw2 Is more like a magical spell which makes you invisible, so it doesn’t make sense that a channeling skill would still be able to hit the character in stealth. This is btw called a ludonarrative dissonance, where game mechanics and narrative clash with each other.
Also game mechanic wise it is a bit strange, that skills which need to target a person can still hit someone in stealth, even though they are not targetable anymore.

However, this does not mean that the mechanic itself is bad. It was already mentioned by someone, that Anet has chosen to let channeling skills hit stealth characters for balancing purposes. This is very common in game design, because if you would make everything realistic, than of course some classes would be OP compared to other classes.
To make all the skills and classes viable, some realism needs be sacrificed.
Then the question remains: is RF balanced when it is used against thieves? I do not know the answer to that one, but I noticed that a lot of people were giving alternatives a thief could use to counter RF, or any channeling skill.

it seems like people are afraid of admitting they have problems dealing with pew pew rangers as a thief because of the backlash of forum people yelling “NOOBIEE” “LTP” etc. etc…

well here it goes! I am an experienced wvw thief and i have lots of problems dealing with pew pew rangers. :> Just a couple of attentive pew pew rangers is enough to completely shut me down and stop me from doing anything productive. (in a zerg or 10ish v 10ish)

Issue 1: instant high dmg at extreme range
Generally I feel a thief’s job (z v z or small group) is to jump into the back line and stop people from free casting. Blind them, whack them, distract them. If i manage to down someone, it’s like a 3 second CC for 6 people :P. This is next to impossible to do now. If a ranger or 2, standing almost anywhere in the zerg sees me, they can instantly engage and push me off. For me to even survive being “pushed off”, I would have to eat through much of my resources, effectively becoming useless until cooldowns come back.

Issue 2: Much higher range, higher range dps, equal melee dps, invulnerability, and stronger ccs.
I’m not saying thieves do not have their own strengths but generally speaking… A thief will have to significantly outplay a ranger in order to win. Forget about RF… just the AA from LB is, frankly speaking, amazing pressure. Seeing signet of stone activated after spending so much of my resources to even get close is… silly. .

Issue 3: Rangers are making the pirate ship meta more effective than it should.
Pew pewing each other from range until one side is weak enough to be charged makes.. alot of sense. It’s not exactly fun though… CMDers are afraid of being sniped down and won’t charge, thieves and mesmers cannot effectively gank, and squishy eles and necros should stay only at their extreme range… This isn’t all because of pew pew rangers but they sure play a big part.

So now I feel like i’m being forced to stay with the zerg, sb 222444222. Until I see someone below 40% hp, jump on them with my daggers and hopefully down them, and instantly jump right out again or else be focused, watch the downed person get ranged down or ressed… repeat repeat repeat. No thought necessary, no risk allowed… until i get told by guildies to switch to necro… oh dear please let this meta end!!!!

LOL never thought I’d see the day when a thief complains about fighting an LB ranger.

Toxsa.2701:

T raw.4658:

Funny thread.

1. OP has to learn to dodge.
2. The ranger defense brigade needs to stop defending the most brain dead low risk high reward class in the game.
3. D/D thief takes infinitely more skill to pull off that a LB ranger.

Either way it’s good to see the posters who rage about thieves scrambling to defend their class lol

If only there’s no wall for D/D to infinitely stack up stealth when near a keep…
This should be fixed already…

Oh, btw, if ranger is so low risk high reward, they should be in the tournaments and WvW already lol… But guess which classes are the most plenty?
Thieves. Engineers. Warriors. Elementalists. Guardians.

And for WvW roaming, thieves number are like 5 times more than other classes. Pretty obvious that which class is the most low risk high reward in WvW lol.. Yet you and that Archon guy is defending the most broken class and crying about ranger because that “Sick-em” and “Rapid Fire”may screw you low risks folks up many times.

Your ignorance on thieves becomes more apparent with each post you make on said subject.

1. Thieves can’t stack stealth on a wall. Used to be but that was removed.
2. You like to cherry pick between WvW and PvP on your rants. There are tons of rangers in PvP. There are zero thief teams out there as well. Funny though is your main problem with thief is in WvW. Stick to 1 aspect b/c in PvP thieves are FAR from OP.
3. Provide hard data or stop guesstimating.

Here’s a lil fun test for anyone to try. Log onto WvW and stand out in the middle of EBG. Don’t attack anyone, /wave a lot, invite/join enemy parties to chat, and take note which people attack you.

It’ll always be a ranger, and if its not a ranger its a ranger playing his alt.

truth

T raw.4658:

Toxsa.2701:

T raw.4658:

Funny thread.

1. OP has to learn to dodge.
2. The ranger defense brigade needs to stop defending the most brain dead low risk high reward class in the game.
3. D/D thief takes infinitely more skill to pull off that a LB ranger.

Either way it’s good to see the posters who rage about thieves scrambling to defend their class lol

If only there’s no wall for D/D to infinitely stack up stealth when near a keep…
This should be fixed already…

Oh, btw, if ranger is so low risk high reward, they should be in the tournaments and WvW already lol… But guess which classes are the most plenty?
Thieves. Engineers. Warriors. Elementalists. Guardians.

And for WvW roaming, thieves number are like 5 times more than other classes. Pretty obvious that which class is the most low risk high reward in WvW lol.. Yet you and that Archon guy is defending the most broken class and crying about ranger because that “Sick-em” and “Rapid Fire”may screw you low risks folks up many times.

Your ignorance on thieves becomes more apparent with each post you make on said subject.

1. Thieves can’t stack stealth on a wall. Used to be but that was removed.
2. You like to cherry pick between WvW and PvP on your rants. There are tons of rangers in PvP. There are zero thief teams out there as well. Funny though is your main problem with thief is in WvW. Stick to 1 aspect b/c in PvP thieves are FAR from OP.
3. Provide hard data or stop guesstimating.

Here’s a lil fun test for anyone to try. Log onto WvW and stand out in the middle of EBG. Don’t attack anyone, /wave a lot, invite/join enemy parties to chat, and take note which people attack you.

It’ll always be a ranger, and if its not a ranger its a ranger playing his alt.

truth

i would probably get zerged long before i saw any roamers

When ur stealthed and not in range of backstab, spamming it wont take u out of stealth. Same applies to aegis block effect, it doesnt take u out?

T raw.4658:

1. Thieves can’t stack stealth on a wall. Used to be but that was removed.

I literally just tested it (like 1 min ago) and you still can. Well, you can’t keep spamming CnD to get a huge stack but you can still gain stealth if you aren’t already in stealth.

Been reading a since my last post and 1 guy claims that dagger storm is worthless in a “real”?? Team fight. Ds is far from worthless as you put it, it’s pretty strong I mean an 8 second duration of reflecting all projectiles, crippling foes and bounces twice How is that worthless? Sometimes it’s a pretty good distraction “look at me spinning in front of you” ! also what good are you to a team fight if you are dead in the first few seconds From a ranger when you have more then enough tools to deal with them

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Been reading a since my last post and 1 guy claims that dagger storm is worthless in a “real”?? Team fight. Ds is far from worthless as you put it, it’s pretty strong I mean an 8 second duration of reflecting all projectiles, crippling foes and bounces twice How is that worthless? Sometimes it’s a pretty good distraction “look at me spinning in front of you” ! also what good are you to a team fight if you are dead in the first few seconds From a ranger when you have more then enough tools to deal with them

i think we’ve been trolled. either that or he actually likes to lose, and that’s why he won’t take advice.

T raw.4658:

Toxsa.2701:

T raw.4658:

Funny thread.

1. OP has to learn to dodge.
2. The ranger defense brigade needs to stop defending the most brain dead low risk high reward class in the game.
3. D/D thief takes infinitely more skill to pull off that a LB ranger.

Either way it’s good to see the posters who rage about thieves scrambling to defend their class lol

If only there’s no wall for D/D to infinitely stack up stealth when near a keep…
This should be fixed already…

Oh, btw, if ranger is so low risk high reward, they should be in the tournaments and WvW already lol… But guess which classes are the most plenty?
Thieves. Engineers. Warriors. Elementalists. Guardians.

And for WvW roaming, thieves number are like 5 times more than other classes. Pretty obvious that which class is the most low risk high reward in WvW lol.. Yet you and that Archon guy is defending the most broken class and crying about ranger because that “Sick-em” and “Rapid Fire”may screw you low risks folks up many times.

Your ignorance on thieves becomes more apparent with each post you make on said subject.

1. Thieves can’t stack stealth on a wall. Used to be but that was removed.
2. You like to cherry pick between WvW and PvP on your rants. There are tons of rangers in PvP. There are zero thief teams out there as well. Funny though is your main problem with thief is in WvW. Stick to 1 aspect b/c in PvP thieves are FAR from OP.
3. Provide hard data or stop guesstimating.

Here’s a lil fun test for anyone to try. Log onto WvW and stand out in the middle of EBG. Don’t attack anyone, /wave a lot, invite/join enemy parties to chat, and take note which people attack you.

It’ll always be a ranger, and if its not a ranger its a ranger playing his alt.

truth

LMFAO. When I roam in EBG, always thieves (yes, usually 2 or more) attack me first, coming from nowhere. You can’t even see it’s coming because they’re sharing stealth. Worse yet, they’ll jump/ dance around your body after they successfully annihilated you after ganking you to down state coming from nowhere.

Don’t know what tier you’re roaming, but your bias toward rangers are beyond words.

Last word, you’re asking people to provide data to proof their statistic, yet you give such highly subjective and bias data without any support at all. What a double standard guy. Sad really.

And yeah, please go roam in EBG in T1. You’ll see way more thieves as roamers than rangers. You’d only see alot of rangers in places like EotM. That’s a fact.

never once in all my roaming have i been jumped by thieves that i did not see on my screen. are you telling me that you roam blind and deaf, so you cant see them pop shadow refuge or hear them blast the smoke field? sorry but just no. unless you are day dreaming and did not see any red names in the far distance then there is no reason for thieves to randomly pop stealth unless they see an enemy too which in that case you see them too – then they will stealth up, you should respond to that, not blindly carry on foreword or what ever you do.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

never once in all my roaming have i been jumped by thieves that i did not see on my screen. are you telling me that you roam blind and deaf, so you cant see them pop shadow refuge or hear them blast the smoke field? sorry but just no. unless you are day dreaming and did not see any red names in the far distance then there is no reason for thieves to randomly pop stealth unless they see an enemy too which in that case you see them too – then they will stealth up, you should respond to that, not blindly carry on foreword or what ever you do.

Which tier are you on?
Also I think you’re outright lying/exaggerating, or not roam enough to claim you never get jumped by thieves before. I even roll my screen to the farthest all the time, and still occasionally get jumped by thief/thieves from behind because they can gap close you out from screen on your left, right and backs side of screen within 0.5 second.

silver, and regardless of that my tier – prime time eb is just as blobby as t1 is. nope never been jumped by thieves that i did not know they were they while running to my objective (team fight is different) but never been ganked like you say. I dunno about you but i am always panning my camera around holding down ctrl to see enemy names (you can see names before the player btw). the moment i I hear or see shadow refuge/black powder I will either wp or go in a different direction. if i am on my thief i will stealth my self.

actually thats a lie, i got ganked a few times because a few jumped out of sm but meh, not in the open map

Toxsa.2701:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

never once in all my roaming have i been jumped by thieves that i did not see on my screen. are you telling me that you roam blind and deaf, so you cant see them pop shadow refuge or hear them blast the smoke field? sorry but just no. unless you are day dreaming and did not see any red names in the far distance then there is no reason for thieves to randomly pop stealth unless they see an enemy too which in that case you see them too – then they will stealth up, you should respond to that, not blindly carry on foreword or what ever you do.

Which tier are you on?
Also I think you’re outright lying/exaggerating, or not roam enough to claim you never get jumped by thieves before. I even roll my screen to the farthest all the time, and still occasionally get jumped by thief/thieves from behind because they can gap close you out from screen on your left, right and backs side of screen within 0.5 second.

Where did he say he has never been jumped by thieves before? I mean you quoted his post and still went and disingenuously put words in his mouth he did not say.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Toxsa.2701:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

never once in all my roaming have i been jumped by thieves that i did not see on my screen. are you telling me that you roam blind and deaf, so you cant see them pop shadow refuge or hear them blast the smoke field? sorry but just no. unless you are day dreaming and did not see any red names in the far distance then there is no reason for thieves to randomly pop stealth unless they see an enemy too which in that case you see them too – then they will stealth up, you should respond to that, not blindly carry on foreword or what ever you do.

Which tier are you on?
Also I think you’re outright lying/exaggerating, or not roam enough to claim you never get jumped by thieves before. I even roll my screen to the farthest all the time, and still occasionally get jumped by thief/thieves from behind because they can gap close you out from screen on your left, right and backs side of screen within 0.5 second.

Where did he say he has never been jumped by thieves before? I mean you quoted his post and still went and disingenuously put words in his mouth he did not say.

“never once in all my roaming have i been jumped by thieves that i did not see on my screen. are you telling me that you roam blind and deaf, so you cant see them pop shadow refuge or hear them blast the smoke field?”
Learn to Read?

Good D/P thieves pre-stack stealth 24/7 before engaging in any battle. If you see them coming, they’re not good thieves. Those are ones that don’t even know how to use the shorten version of heart-seeker to spam leap finisher on smoke field. Unfortunately most thieves are that bad.

Osu.6307:

B ) keep running into top 1% kitten -kicking rangers.

Wait, they exist? =O What build do these mythical beings run? Power or traps?

Toxsa.2701:

dancingmonkey.4902:

Toxsa.2701:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

never once in all my roaming have i been jumped by thieves that i did not see on my screen. are you telling me that you roam blind and deaf, so you cant see them pop shadow refuge or hear them blast the smoke field? sorry but just no. unless you are day dreaming and did not see any red names in the far distance then there is no reason for thieves to randomly pop stealth unless they see an enemy too which in that case you see them too – then they will stealth up, you should respond to that, not blindly carry on foreword or what ever you do.

Which tier are you on?
Also I think you’re outright lying/exaggerating, or not roam enough to claim you never get jumped by thieves before. I even roll my screen to the farthest all the time, and still occasionally get jumped by thief/thieves from behind because they can gap close you out from screen on your left, right and backs side of screen within 0.5 second.

Where did he say he has never been jumped by thieves before? I mean you quoted his post and still went and disingenuously put words in his mouth he did not say.

“never once in all my roaming have i been jumped by thieves that i did not see on my screen. are you telling me that you roam blind and deaf, so you cant see them pop shadow refuge or hear them blast the smoke field?”
Learn to Read?

Are you suggesting I cannot read, because I didn’t chose to ignore the same qualifiers you ignored? That doesn’t strike me as very logical, but to each their own I guess.

Not only can I read, I can speak braille in 7 different languages.

He specifically stated that
" never once in all my roaming have i been jumped by thieves that i did not see on my screen. "

Are you claiming thieves cannot be seen on screens now?

Aware players will generally see them coming. Stealth has a duration limit. If you not aware of your surrounding, that does not mean you can assume everyone else is not as well. Once they hit you once, they lose stealth. At that point all stealth did was gem them the opening attack. Aware players with then counter in some way, At one of those two points in the encounter, you will have seen the thief. Other wise their is a problem, such as having out dated PC equipment that misses graphics it should have displayed, poor game play on your part, a simple lack of awareness, or a failure to react.

Toxsa.2701:

dancingmonkey.4902:

Toxsa.2701:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

never once in all my roaming have i been jumped by thieves that i did not see on my screen. are you telling me that you roam blind and deaf, so you cant see them pop shadow refuge or hear them blast the smoke field? sorry but just no. unless you are day dreaming and did not see any red names in the far distance then there is no reason for thieves to randomly pop stealth unless they see an enemy too which in that case you see them too – then they will stealth up, you should respond to that, not blindly carry on foreword or what ever you do.

Which tier are you on?
Also I think you’re outright lying/exaggerating, or not roam enough to claim you never get jumped by thieves before. I even roll my screen to the farthest all the time, and still occasionally get jumped by thief/thieves from behind because they can gap close you out from screen on your left, right and backs side of screen within 0.5 second.

Where did he say he has never been jumped by thieves before? I mean you quoted his post and still went and disingenuously put words in his mouth he did not say.

“never once in all my roaming have i been jumped by thieves that i did not see on my screen. are you telling me that you roam blind and deaf, so you cant see them pop shadow refuge or hear them blast the smoke field?”
Learn to Read?

Good D/P thieves pre-stack stealth 24/7 before engaging in any battle. If you see them coming, they’re not good thieves. Those are ones that don’t even know how to use the shorten version of heart-seeker to spam leap finisher on smoke field. Unfortunately most thieves are that bad.

good “d/p thieves”? good d/p thieves do not spam that stuff like that, thats shadow arts and they are not “good thieves” they are just trolls relying on trait for 1 extra second on stealth. good thieves are the ones that do it once and burst you down even though you saw them use #5 – #2.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Toxsa.2701:

dancingmonkey.4902:

Toxsa.2701:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

never once in all my roaming have i been jumped by thieves that i did not see on my screen. are you telling me that you roam blind and deaf, so you cant see them pop shadow refuge or hear them blast the smoke field? sorry but just no. unless you are day dreaming and did not see any red names in the far distance then there is no reason for thieves to randomly pop stealth unless they see an enemy too which in that case you see them too – then they will stealth up, you should respond to that, not blindly carry on foreword or what ever you do.

Which tier are you on?
Also I think you’re outright lying/exaggerating, or not roam enough to claim you never get jumped by thieves before. I even roll my screen to the farthest all the time, and still occasionally get jumped by thief/thieves from behind because they can gap close you out from screen on your left, right and backs side of screen within 0.5 second.

Where did he say he has never been jumped by thieves before? I mean you quoted his post and still went and disingenuously put words in his mouth he did not say.

“never once in all my roaming have i been jumped by thieves that i did not see on my screen. are you telling me that you roam blind and deaf, so you cant see them pop shadow refuge or hear them blast the smoke field?”
Learn to Read?

Are you suggesting I cannot read, because I didn’t chose to ignore the same qualifiers you ignored? That doesn’t strike me as very logical, but to each their own I guess.

Not only can I read, I can speak braille in 7 different languages.

He specifically stated that
" never once in all my roaming have i been jumped by thieves that i did not see on my screen. "

Are you claiming thieves cannot be seen on screens now?

Aware players will generally see them coming. Stealth has a duration limit. If you not aware of your surrounding, that does not mean you can assume everyone else is not as well. Once they hit you once, they lose stealth. At that point all stealth did was gem them the opening attack. Aware players with then counter in some way, At one of those two points in the encounter, you will have seen the thief. Other wise their is a problem, such as having out dated PC equipment that misses graphics it should have displayed, poor game play on your part, a simple lack of awareness, or a failure to react.

Then you simply don’t understand what “jumped by thieves” means.
It means you’re caught off-guard, unaware of he’s coming.
He simply claimed he never got caught off-guard by thieves a single time, always see them coming in any situation because those thieves always leave a smoke field for him to see.

Like I said, good D/P thieves always pre-stack stealth before he moves to anywhere.
They can stack up to 15+ seconds, and keep on stacking up stealth if they want to. Good ones will start leaping through smoke field from afar before any engagement.
Too bad many veteran thieves in WvW are long gone. Most now don’t even know how to leap through smoke field with the short version of heart-seeker, and only start stealthing when in like 1500 range. At that point foes are totally aware of thieve’s incoming spike. But for dire perplex thieves, it really doesn’t matter when they stealth though because they’ll eventually win. Even if they can’t win, there’s not many things you can do to stop him from escaping. Despite all the advantages, bad thieves still QQ like no tomorrow when someone outplays him, and always demand a nerf when they’re fighting you with the most broken mechanic in WvW. Sad really.

Toxsa.2701:

dancingmonkey.4902:

Toxsa.2701:

dancingmonkey.4902:

Toxsa.2701:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

never once in all my roaming have i been jumped by thieves that i did not see on my screen. are you telling me that you roam blind and deaf, so you cant see them pop shadow refuge or hear them blast the smoke field? sorry but just no. unless you are day dreaming and did not see any red names in the far distance then there is no reason for thieves to randomly pop stealth unless they see an enemy too which in that case you see them too – then they will stealth up, you should respond to that, not blindly carry on foreword or what ever you do.

Which tier are you on?
Also I think you’re outright lying/exaggerating, or not roam enough to claim you never get jumped by thieves before. I even roll my screen to the farthest all the time, and still occasionally get jumped by thief/thieves from behind because they can gap close you out from screen on your left, right and backs side of screen within 0.5 second.

Where did he say he has never been jumped by thieves before? I mean you quoted his post and still went and disingenuously put words in his mouth he did not say.

“never once in all my roaming have i been jumped by thieves that i did not see on my screen. are you telling me that you roam blind and deaf, so you cant see them pop shadow refuge or hear them blast the smoke field?”
Learn to Read?

Are you suggesting I cannot read, because I didn’t chose to ignore the same qualifiers you ignored? That doesn’t strike me as very logical, but to each their own I guess.

Not only can I read, I can speak braille in 7 different languages.

He specifically stated that
" never once in all my roaming have i been jumped by thieves that i did not see on my screen. "

Are you claiming thieves cannot be seen on screens now?

Aware players will generally see them coming. Stealth has a duration limit. If you not aware of your surrounding, that does not mean you can assume everyone else is not as well. Once they hit you once, they lose stealth. At that point all stealth did was gem them the opening attack. Aware players with then counter in some way, At one of those two points in the encounter, you will have seen the thief. Other wise their is a problem, such as having out dated PC equipment that misses graphics it should have displayed, poor game play on your part, a simple lack of awareness, or a failure to react.

Then you simply don’t understand what “jumped by thieves” means.
It means you’re caught off-guard, unaware of he’s coming.
He simply claimed he never got caught off-guard by thieves a single time, always see them coming in any situation because those thieves always leave a smoke field for him to see.

Like I said, good D/P thieves always pre-stack stealth before he moves to anywhere.
They can stack up to 15+ seconds, and keep on stacking up stealth if they want to. Good ones will start leaping through smoke field from afar before any engagement.
Too bad many veteran thieves in WvW are long gone. Most now don’t even know how to leap through smoke field with the short version of heart-seeker, and only start stealthing when in like 1500 range. At that point foes are totally aware of thieve’s incoming spike. But for dire perplex thieves, it really doesn’t matter when they stealth though because they’ll eventually win. Even if they can’t win, there’s not many things you can do to stop him from escaping. Despite all the advantages, bad thieves still QQ like no tomorrow when someone outplays him, and always demand a nerf when they’re fighting you with the most broken mechanic in WvW. Sad really.

Again your ignorance shines through. You really have no idea what you are talking about.

Losing to a power thief 1v1 on a ranger is lack of skill on the rangers part.

Toxsa.2701:

In group fight rangers are useless too

Really? What makes you say that?

Toxsa.2701:

Against a zerg, ranger’s range AOEs are just too weak, too scarce, and punished too harshly by retaliation. Rangers are almost always useless in T1 zerg fight.

Really? Because when I’m in a zerg with my thief I wish I had 1500 range.

Toxsa.2701:

thieves are the most common roamers for ages

Please prove this. Don’t just say “everyone knows thieves are the most common”, no. I want evidence.

Toxsa.2701:

Good thieves have huge advantage against power ranger

And power rangers have their own advantages against thieves.

Jim Hunter.6821:

No you are complaining about being hit by a channeled skill that was activated before you were in stealth

You still haven’t explained why rapid fire should follow in stealth.

Jim Hunter.6821:

It’s a whirl finisher that grants stability and reflects projectiles from all professions. You are by no means required to run it but if you keep complaining about dying to ranged attacks when you have a skill that’s main purpose is defense against ranged attacks….

It’s main purpose is not to defend against ranged attacks. It’s main purpose is AoE damage and has ranged protection as a bonus. You made no counterarguments to any of my points, I shall reprint them here for your convenience:
1. You mean that I should be required to run an certain elite in order to properly counter a single ability of a single weaponset of a single class?
2. It’s not even a good counter: its a 90s CD elite protecting against a skill with a 10/8s CD.
3. it’s pretty bad against most other builds. It’s basically a “Kill me! I can’t protect myself!” kind of thing against most other builds that don’t have projectiles as a main source of damage.

choovanski.5462:

well considering you refuse to dodge any of the skill or slot dagger storm to fight rangers it is a L2P issue.

At what point did I say that I refused to dodge?

As for dagger storm, I have already stated my arguments that dagger storm is a bad counter above.

choovanski.5462:

also, you know pistol 4 interrupts rapid fire right? you can just use that on them and not have to stealth.

Because a skill with 900 range will always be available to counter a skill with 1500 range.

Terrahero.9358:

Beta forums got deleted before launch.

I’m not calling you a liar but without evidence I have literally no reason to believe you.

Terrahero.9358:

Your arguments are opinions, and they are either Rapid Fire is overpowered or Stealth is underpowered.

I believe neither and I have never claimed either to be true: please quote me where said those things. Rapid Fire is not OP, rapid fire following through stealth is just a bad mechanic. I do not believe that stealth is underpowered.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Been reading a since my last post and 1 guy claims that dagger storm is worthless in a “real”?? Team fight. Ds is far from worthless as you put it, it’s pretty strong I mean an 8 second duration of reflecting all projectiles, crippling foes and bounces twice How is that worthless? Sometimes it’s a pretty good distraction “look at me spinning in front of you” ! also what good are you to a team fight if you are dead in the first few seconds From a ranger when you have more then enough tools to deal with them

Maybe I’m just biased, but in my experiences another thief using dagger storm is a bad idea because I will always immediately steal+CnD+backstab and right after that the thief is either down, almost down, or running away: he cannot defend himself while using dagger storm. I have never come across a thief that I found to use dagger storm effectively in a small team fight.

Toxsa.2701:

Good D/P thieves pre-stack stealth 24/7 before engaging in any battle. If you see them coming, they’re not good thieves. Those are ones that don’t even know how to use the shorten version of heart-seeker to spam leap finisher on smoke field. Unfortunately most thieves are that bad.

What? If you see a thief coming they’re bad thieves? Thieves don’t just go around running stealth with 100% uptime. You only stealth if you suspect an enemy nearby or if you see one and stealth. What you think constitutes a “good thief” is not possible, and I have never met a thief who does such a thing. Thieves are not invisible ghosts who wander the map and always get a complete surprise attack.

Toxsa.2701:

They can stack up to 15+ seconds, and keep on stacking up stealth if they want to

This can only realistically be done with shadow refuge. Stop exaggerating.

This whole thread is just running around in circles. There is no good reason why Stealth should interupt skills.
Thieves are in no need of getting buffed, and Stealth is certainly in no need of getting buffed.

And to think this was all about how Rapid Fire is such a pain for Thieves when they go into Stealth. The old RF was actually better against people jumping into Stealth.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Where did he say he has never been jumped by thieves before? I mean you quoted his post and still went and disingenuously put words in his mouth he did not say.

That’s funny, i was just thinking the same thing about you when i was reading another thread.

If they nerfed channeled skills ability to track through stealth what chance would a longbow ranger have against a thief? You can’t properly aim projectiles where you think a stealthed thief might be. A rangers melee weapons on their own don’t have the damage to take out a decent player running full SA or condi. Rangers would be forced into playing condi which is a much stronger spec against a thief.

Every profession has either channeled projectiles or a ton of aoe to keep stealth from becoming brokenly OP. You keep saying we should have to explain to you why rapid fire should track through stealth. Well the reason is because the game was designed that way so that stealth has counters. If they removed that counter they would have to introduce different limitations on stealth like you’ve seen in other games such as you can’t stealth in combat, 50% speed reduction while stealthed, any damage taken breaks stealth, etc.

And going off your argument of what “makes sense” to you, and how you “feel” things should work, it would make much more sense if they did implement these limitations because it is stealth, not invisibility. Do you really think thieves would be in a better place at that point?

Mainly because of two reasons:

• Thieves do not have weapon skill recharges in the few thief weapon skills that need skill recharges of at least 1-5 seconds. Thanks to that they can spam too many things that should not be spammed, which is happily exploited by unscrupulous players.
• Stealth is more broken than immobilize, and must be fixed:
  • The more damage your hits do, the longer revealed should last. A revealing hit for very little damage should last less than now, a revealed from a massive critical should last more than now. Instead 3s in PvE and WvW and 4 in sPvP, it’ll be 1-7s for both. Since WvW and PvE have more stats and higher damage numbers, there won’t be any need to have different rules. So the more damage you are doing, the less you can rely on stealth to disengage and run away.
  • If you attack someone in melee range, if the attack fails for whatever reason, you should still get revealed for minimum duration (1s). You can’t attack without risk of being discovered. That just doesn’t make sense.
  • If you fire a projectile, even if that hits nothing, as long as there someone with a character facing where the projectile is coming from, you should get revealed for minimum duration. This won’t be about the camera, but character positioning. If a player sees the projectile because of camera orientation, if the character is not facing that direction and has line of sight to the cloaked creature, the cloaked craeture won’t be revealed. So being mindful of your surroundings and enemy orientation keeps you from being discovered if you miss a hit.
  • Being revealed repeatedly within a short time against the same target should result in revealed lasting more and more when hitting that target, up to a cap. So stealth is used strategically, to gain combat advantage and to disengage, not to constantly attack-stealth-attack-stealth. Taking longer breaks between Revealeds would bring back Revealed to its normal duration. This could be done with an effect the target gets called something like “Catching up” or “Learning patterns”: “This foe is learning your movements, and it’s getting harder to hide from them after attacking.” Each stack would last 10 seconds and increase Revealed duration against them by 3%, up to 30%. If you are a thief that jumps in to finish targets after your allies have taken their health down, you will be completely unaffected as you hit those enemies very little.
  • If someone is channeling on you a skill that requires a target to have an effect (e.g.: Mesmer sword 1, elementalist scepter air 1, neromancer axe 3, elementalist scepter fire #1, etc.), or activating a targeted skill on you (e.g. Dragon’s Tooth, phantasm skills), and you go into stealth mid-activation, the channel should get canceled, and the rest of the skill fail without triggering an ‘interrupt’. A channel should require you to be able to target the enemy for the whole activation. That means having both line of sight and being able to target them during the whole skill. The moment that stops, the channel should stop. All other skills will go on normally, but those that would lock on the target as it moves like ranger longbow #2 will lose the lock on and just go on like when you fire them without a target, and the user can reorient them with the camera, so enemies firing a projectile barrage at you will have to guess where you are and aim manually there if you go into stealth mid-channel.
  • Skills that cause revealed on enemies like “Sick’em” and “Analize” woud get their revealed durations down to compensate a bit, since with these changes revealed would be a bit more troublesome and may last longer on average.
  • Being damaged in melee range should make stealth ‘flicker’, making the cloaked creature partially visible but still not targeteable only to the attacker, but not their allies. This partial visibility would be less clear an noticeable than the translucency seen by the thief’s allies. Because of this, approaching enemies from behind under stealth will be much safer, and having your back to a wall may be useful against cloaked enemies.

Jim Hunter.6821:

If they nerfed channeled skills ability to track through stealth what chance would a longbow ranger have against a thief? You can’t properly aim projectiles where you think a stealthed thief might be. A rangers melee weapons on their own don’t have the damage to take out a decent player running full SA or condi. Rangers would be forced into playing condi which is a much stronger spec against a thief.

Every profession has either channeled projectiles or a ton of aoe to keep stealth from becoming brokenly OP. You keep saying we should have to explain to you why rapid fire should track through stealth. Well the reason is because the game was designed that way so that stealth has counters. If they removed that counter they would have to introduce different limitations on stealth like you’ve seen in other games such as you can’t stealth in combat, 50% speed reduction while stealthed, any damage taken breaks stealth, etc.

And going off your argument of what “makes sense” to you, and how you “feel” things should work, it would make much more sense if they did implement these limitations because it is stealth, not invisibility. Do you really think thieves would be in a better place at that point?

No need to argue with those thieves. They’re spoiled children who’d rage and cry for nerf whenever someone beats their “supposedly invincible build”. Seriously, they’re used to winning and getting away in all situation in WvW, so whenever someone violates their moto (by using RF and sic-em to kill them), they’d say: “OMG SO BROKENLY OP , NEED TO NERF!”, instead of improving their own skills.

zzBlurryzz.7492:

You can play a ranger? I’m talking in WvW. Rangers currently are VERY tanky, long range, safe thieves. There is no risk in playing them. They have just as much burst and can easily beat a power build thief in second.

I find myself roaming on my D/D powerbuild thief and often coming across a ranger. Basilisk venom, backstab and nuke down to 20% health or so, only to be pushed away by their longbow and rapid fired to death. 20k damage from one skill that cant miss?

My proposed change is to actually make a change to thieves. Make it so when you stealth, targeted skills on you STOP hitting. Currently if they cast their rapid fire on you and you stealth, every shot of it will still hit you. WHY?!

Please do something, make thieves more useful then sharing venoms.

Lol, rangers are a joke. Especially power rangers. As a thief they’re the ones I pick off first. Predictable, easily evaded pewpew bursts with little follow through and nothing but squish behind it. Only ever a challenge when you run into a zerker pack of them that know how to coordinate bursts to outlast your endurance, at which point it turns into a channeled sniper cheesefest (I’m talking about a group of rangers vs a single thief — assuming equivalent skill level, in equal or close-to-equal numbers rangers lose almost every time against thieves). Especially considering most rangers seem utterly clueless at using their pets. At least the SB condi/condi-trap rangers put up a bit of a fight, though.

Thief > ranger any day of the week.

Oh, and venom share is overrated. Yes, I WENT THERE.

Reaven.3958:

zzBlurryzz.7492:

You can play a ranger? I’m talking in WvW. Rangers currently are VERY tanky, long range, safe thieves. There is no risk in playing them. They have just as much burst and can easily beat a power build thief in second.

I find myself roaming on my D/D powerbuild thief and often coming across a ranger. Basilisk venom, backstab and nuke down to 20% health or so, only to be pushed away by their longbow and rapid fired to death. 20k damage from one skill that cant miss?

My proposed change is to actually make a change to thieves. Make it so when you stealth, targeted skills on you STOP hitting. Currently if they cast their rapid fire on you and you stealth, every shot of it will still hit you. WHY?!

Please do something, make thieves more useful then sharing venoms.

Lol, rangers are a joke. Especially power rangers. As a thief they’re the ones I pick off first. Predictable, easily evaded pewpew bursts with little follow through and nothing but squish behind it. Only ever a challenge when you run into a zerker pack of them that know how to coordinate bursts to outlast your endurance, at which point it turns into a channeled sniper cheesefest (I’m talking about a group of rangers vs a single thief — assuming equivalent skill level, in equal or close-to-equal numbers rangers lose almost every time against thieves). Especially considering most rangers seem utterly clueless at using their pets. At least the SB condi/condi-trap rangers put up a bit of a fight, though.

Thief > ranger any day of the week.

Oh, and venom share is overrated. Yes, I WENT THERE.

You’re not a thief though…..

Unless the ranger is running Sic ‘Em, it should be pretty hard to lose as a thief unless you’re getting hardcore outplayed.

Engage till they pop SoS, then stealth and dodge the RF. Or interrupt their RF then stealth. Then re-engage when SoS runs out.

Outside of stealth play, you can Pistol3 their LB3 to blind it and close distance. If you’re circlestrafing / running through the ranger, he won’t be able to channel LB2 on you unless he’s standing still. Even if he is standing still, you can either dodge, Pistol4, or Steal (with sleight of hand) to interrupt rapid fire.

When SoS is down, the ranger really isn’t tanky at all. A glassy ranger has the same armor as you. He has more health, but you will neutralize that health advantage with your opening attack.

Honestly, outside of Sic ‘Em, rangers in WvW only seem strong if you’re one of those mindless stealth-spamming thieves that don’t actually know how to properly apply pressure. If all you do is backstab – stealth – repeat, then you deserve to die to rapid fire. If you learn to use your other skills and don’t spam dodges, then rapid fire stops being a problem.

I think the real problem here is that D/D has become obsolete on thief which really should be a fundamental weapon set.

I run D/P and well yeah rangers, if I lose to one its my fault.

But D/D lacks so much utility and defense that its steadily becoming obsolete.

I will admit, the only time rangers are a problem is in team fights where I will be putting myself in the most horrible situation taking them out as they hide behind so many people.

nightblood.7910:

I think the real problem here is that D/D has become obsolete on thief which really should be a fundamental weapon set.

I run D/P and well yeah rangers, if I lose to one its my fault.

But D/D lacks so much utility and defense that its steadily becoming obsolete.

I will admit, the only time rangers are a problem is in team fights where I will be putting myself in the most horrible situation taking them out as they hide behind so many people.

This argument makes no sense. Rangers are one of the easiest classes for d/d thieves because you can c&d off the pet.

Jim Hunter.6821:

nightblood.7910:

I think the real problem here is that D/D has become obsolete on thief which really should be a fundamental weapon set.

I run D/P and well yeah rangers, if I lose to one its my fault.

But D/D lacks so much utility and defense that its steadily becoming obsolete.

I will admit, the only time rangers are a problem is in team fights where I will be putting myself in the most horrible situation taking them out as they hide behind so many people.

This argument makes no sense. Rangers are one of the easiest classes for d/d thieves because you can c&d off the pet.

Yeah but you lack the blinds and as the OP said getting an RF off before going stealth is not that hard.

D/D just lacks the defensive utilities that other builds offer from S/D evade + Gap Closers (Of which you still have CnD) to D/P blinds + Gap Closers. Playing D/P its rare that a ranger can keep me out of their face.

With D/D you can carry Inful. Sig. and if youre good with ShadowStep, you can somewhat keep the gap closed but when they go on CD now you have a problem.

I just see D/D as an inferior weapon set that needs some decent rework.

It needs a decent gap closer besides spamming HS. It needs some defensive condi like blind or better evades in the dual wield.

Also I will admit if were discussing brown bear power rangers, whatever just kill it. If youre up against a decent ranger, D/D is pretty underwhelming.

D/P is more versatile, D/D has a bigger burst, there is nothing wrong with it. Also there is nothing stopping you from running both sets, yeah you’ll lose the utility of the shortbow but you’ll be very strong 1v1.