Guild Wars 2

I like her…a lot actually. Her character fits well into the writers style of overly campy and expositional dialogue. That sounds like a dig, but it isn’t. I think the writing style has struggled in this game since day one, the writers built square characters and tried to write them into round holes and it almost always fell flat. Here they have made a character they know how to write, and hopefully are finding their footing.

“Cannonballs! My one weakness”. Bravo.

Egon Vidar.9125:

In the end, I think you missed my point, and many other people’s.

Don’t conflate not agreeing with your point with missing the point.

I suspect it will be just an agree to disagree sort of thing here. I think it’s an acceptable development, an acceptable character presented in an acceptable manner. If they had the foresight 2-3 years ago to know they would want or need this development at this time, committed the resources to implanting all the cute little clues needed — that would be phenomenal.

However, if this is what you need to avoid calling these story developments as contrived, then I think you are going to be sorely disappointed pretty much forever. You said you understood my points about the medium. If that’s truly so, then you have to realize there’s no way to plan for every eventuality. There’s no way, with a development team of hundreds of people, coders and artists and all those people who help make this a reality, that you are going to know everything you need in advance — especially not with a medium that is this young. One of my favored shows in recent past was Babylon 5, a show that was hailed as having an extremely strong and vibrant story arc, with all those things you listed as being desireable (basically boiling down to cleverl foreshadowing) still had more or less a SINGLE author. JMS personally wrote approximately 80-90% of the scripts himself. It wasn’t a team effort. And this effort is quite a bit more difficult due to the non-linear nature of a player character’s path through the world, development time constraints, playtime/consumption constraints, and so forth.

(Also should be noted that Season 1 of Babylon 5 was considered pretty dry at times at best. Took a year or so for the story to get its sea legs. And this is in an industry that specifically went back 50 years for televised media, and back hundreds of years if you include theater media.)

All of that being said, ANet’s story folks did try to put in some foreshadowing that the person exists. (Don’t recall the exact examples, but they’re up on the page here someplace.) The attempt to build up characters is there given that they cannot possibly have had the assets in place to begin with without having had this planned in advance of when they actually need it. They are making this up as they go along and they’re doing something no MMO has attempted to do thus far at the pace they’re doing it at.

Does that raise them above criticism? Of course not. You are as entitled to your opinion on them as I am. Is there room for improvement? Sure, there’s always room to get better. The improvement over Southsun is noticeable and appreciated. However, I think it should provide some context for the criticism though. Episodic content in a medium that requires assets to be prepared well in advance in a non-linear medium in a monthly real-time development environment?

Well maybe I’m willing to cut them a little more slack I guess.

And for the record, I do think her dialog is just fine for a crazy person. Quite willing to entertain specific examples though and listen to why that isn’t the talk of a crazy person.

she’s a bitt chubby for a silvari

maybe she binges on candies to balance the stress of trying to so hard to be evil

and u guys calling her a villain sue aint helpin her relax!

Remillard.8691:

(Also should be noted that Season 1 of Babylon 5 was considered pretty dry at times at best. Took a year or so for the story to get its sea legs. And this is in an industry that specifically went back 50 years for televised media, and back hundreds of years if you include theater media.)

We also have as examples?

- Seasons 1 & 2 of “Star Trek: The Next Generation” which were nowhere near as good as what followed. Also that last season was almost flat as well.
- Season 3 of Lost had major issues with pacing and plot revelations as well, which is what a lot of the complaints about story in Living Story remind me of.
- Season 1 of Firefly was uneven, but the acting made up for it. The later seasons were much much better. Wait . . .
- The X-Files as a show had so many dangling threads and plot points at one point it was much easier to just sever them and start somewhat fresh in the later seasons.
- Wheel of Time. That is all.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Remillard.8691:

(Also should be noted that Season 1 of Babylon 5 was considered pretty dry at times at best. Took a year or so for the story to get its sea legs. And this is in an industry that specifically went back 50 years for televised media, and back hundreds of years if you include theater media.)

We also have as examples?

- Seasons 1 & 2 of “Star Trek: The Next Generation” which were nowhere near as good as what followed. Also that last season was almost flat as well.
- Season 3 of Lost had major issues with pacing and plot revelations as well, which is what a lot of the complaints about story in Living Story remind me of.
- Season 1 of Firefly was uneven, but the acting made up for it. The later seasons were much much better. Wait . . .
- The X-Files as a show had so many dangling threads and plot points at one point it was much easier to just sever them and start somewhat fresh in the later seasons.
- Wheel of Time. That is all.

I’d tend to discount ST:TNG as a desired example because largely it was entirely episodic without a serious driving plot line. There were some recurring character types but did not have much beyond the story of the week, or possibly a two parter. There were consequences from some stories (Picard’s encounter with the Borg) but it didn’t really drive plot, and was more of a minor complication at the best of times (ignoring the movies).

I would generally place GW2’s Living Story at about this level. Episodic content, desireably but not always linked with prior story elements.

I think they would LIKE to be in a place like Babylon 5 or ST:DS9 which did have some very strong overarching plot lines. But again, B5 had a single point design person who knew well in advance pretty much the entire story. And DS9 took several years to mature into its plot arc — before that point it was a stationary TNG style show.

Agreed, Lost was a plot mess. It tried. There were elements that were quite good, other stuff that was just haphazard, and basically wallowed around, and just sort of expired on the table with no clear vision.

X-Files I really don’t remember with any clarity. I remember it being primarily episodic with some recurring themes/characters.

And again, I don’t know that any book bears enough resemblance to the reality of a mamorpaguh to be a viable comparison. A book is a linear experience, highly controlled, single creative source, with relatively easy editorial control.

Story arcs? Buffy the Vampire Slayer had story arcs. Big ones. They covered an entire season, with scatterings of non-arc episodes here and there (which usually still had some arc-y bits in them). It was great, but it was also difficult for someone unfamiliar with the show to just jump in without feeling lost.

I think she kind of is.

I don’t really care for “insane” characters in general, since people seem to think that insanity = being a genius. It’s not. Seems like everyone is jumping on that bandwagon after the Dark Knight, ugh.

I was mostly okay with her for a while though, until the line about her graduating from all three Asura Colleges.
What? No. How was she even allowed in?

I’m waiting for them to reveal that she was almost the Master of Whispers, but was only rejected because she was too edgy and mysterious. And then she ran a Norn wrestling school for a few years before getting bored from a lack of challenge, then learned every major language Tyria has even known. Then mastered five instruments, cured the common cold and wrote the great Tyrian novel.

You can make a character a prodigy/impressive without passing the point of believability.

Scarlet is the equivalent of a Cobra operative.

IMHO Scarlet is a pathetic villain, she’s like a villain out of a childrens series not a supposed game for adults. Huge leaps of logic are required to accept her as the mastermind she’s supposed to be.

gwawer.9805:

she’s a bitt chubby for a silvari

maybe she binges on candies to balance the stress of trying to so hard to be evil

and u guys calling her a villain sue aint helpin her relax!

She is the worst kind of Sylvari….a vegetarian. I shudder to think about it.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Namica.2951:

The thing is, people have been seeing “deeper meanings behind seemingly unimportant one liners.” since flame and frost.

. . . before that. WAY before that. WAY WAY before that. You should have seen things in Prophecies before anything else was ever put together, let alone the conclusions drawn from the ruined cape which used to be found somewhere ashore in Kryta on launch. Then the Preserved Red Iris in Kourna . . .

Seriously, some of the theories were incredibly . . . well let’s just be nice and say “extremely unlikely”.

Instead we got abunch of shoddy writing that’s being defended with “Oh well, surely it gets better…”

. . . worked for Star Trek: TNG and DS9. Not so much Voyager and Enterprise though, so I’ll take a 50% success rate.

The difference is, GW1 had consistently good writing. You always had reason to believe that the next leg of the arc would be good. You expected connections.

GW2 hasn’t had good writing from Traehearne on. Everything fell apart after Claw Island, and this shoddy writing has carried on for the various living stories. We no longer have any reason to believe that it will get better since it’s been bad from launch and on. The only half decent writing we get are from most of the personal storylines, and up till retaking claw island (though even then, some parts of the orders were iffy).

Did we get a new writing staff at some point? Because there is a marked drop in quality and it’s yet to claw its way back up.

Namica.2951:

The difference is, GW1 had consistently good writing. You always had reason to believe that the next leg of the arc would be good. You expected connections.

Hahaha. No.

Prophecies didn’t have consistently good writing, and all I have to do is remember Prince Rurik’s contribution to chatter during “The Ruins of Surmia” to point out what I mean. Beyond that, the White Mantle/Shining Blade bits weren’t really good until late, and only really shone in “War in Kryta”.

Almost all of the good writing I remember out of Prophecies came post-campaign. Which means it was added after it shipped. Sorrow’s Furnace was really good, but it wasn’t initially there. And I may knock Factions for being completely predictable and by-the-numbers, but it was at least entertaining (hey, there’s another villain “cuz I’m evil” sue – Shiro Tagachi).

Nightfall, I won’t get into because I’m probably the only person who saw the Kormir Ascension and went “I like having a goddess owe me one” instead of “but it should have been meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee”.

Eye of the North was uneven with the burden of introducing two new races and reworking the charr amidst the trouble of handling its own plot. Good news is it shuffled off the “meet the races” into side quests instead of forcing you to do them to advance.

Guild Wars 2 is average on story. It’s not as horrible as people say it is (as a whole) nor is it “the most awesome story evar”. It’s cliched, it’s unevenly paced, and character introductions for the important NPCs are handled poorly; this is something which has persisted into the Living Story (save for Braham and Rox, who have the benefit as starting as “nobodies” we get to watch become somewhat-kinda-useful).

That’s the big weakness in the GW2 story – a lot of things aren’t properly telegraphed in advance. But, as I said before . . . that was also a problem with almost all of GW1.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Namica.2951:

The difference is, GW1 had consistently good writing. You always had reason to believe that the next leg of the arc would be good. You expected connections.

Hahaha. No.

Prophecies didn’t have consistently good writing, and all I have to do is remember Prince Rurik’s contribution to chatter during “The Ruins of Surmia” to point out what I mean. Beyond that, the White Mantle/Shining Blade bits weren’t really good until late, and only really shone in “War in Kryta”.

Almost all of the good writing I remember out of Prophecies came post-campaign. Which means it was added after it shipped. Sorrow’s Furnace was really good, but it wasn’t initially there. And I may knock Factions for being completely predictable and by-the-numbers, but it was at least entertaining (hey, there’s another villain “cuz I’m evil” sue – Shiro Tagachi).

Nightfall, I won’t get into because I’m probably the only person who saw the Kormir Ascension and went “I like having a goddess owe me one” instead of “but it should have been meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee”.

Eye of the North was uneven with the burden of introducing two new races and reworking the charr amidst the trouble of handling its own plot. Good news is it shuffled off the “meet the races” into side quests instead of forcing you to do them to advance.

Guild Wars 2 is average on story. It’s not as horrible as people say it is (as a whole) nor is it “the most awesome story evar”. It’s cliched, it’s unevenly paced, and character introductions for the important NPCs are handled poorly; this is something which has persisted into the Living Story (save for Braham and Rox, who have the benefit as starting as “nobodies” we get to watch become somewhat-kinda-useful).

That’s the big weakness in the GW2 story – a lot of things aren’t properly telegraphed in advance. But, as I said before . . . that was also a problem with almost all of GW1.

I’m not going to go into how I disagree with your post, since it’s heavily opinionated and it’ll just turn into a slap fight. But I will comment on the Shiro part.

If you don’t know about Shiro’s motivation, and how things went down in that. Who tricked him, how the deception worked, how the the Emperor only reassured him of the deceiver being right. Then you weren’t paying attention at all.

Namica.2951:

If you don’t know about Shiro’s motivation, and how things went down in that. Who tricked him, how the deception worked, how the the Emperor only reassured him of the deceiver being right. Then you weren’t paying attention at all.

I know about his motivation, and I know how and what his goal eventually is. But, you see, he has a lot of extra stuff he is doing in the path which likewise doesn’t make any sense. He starts the Affliction, and sets them loose but it seems he is more than capable of going to the palace in his spirit form and dealing with it from the start. He plows through just about everything and is only stopped by becoming flesh and blood . . . and even then it’s a big cheat since he still has access to quite a few supernatural powers he probably shouldn’t have.

It’s relatively simple to paint this slightly differently and have Scarlet. Shiro’s behavior is not insanity for the sake of insanity, it is enraged revenge but the two behaviors are rather similar in result. And I like both Shiro and Scarlet as antagonists – Shiro got what he wanted, and Scarlet is entertaining for me to watch at work. But Shiro had more story as to “why”, and Scarlet apparently does too (which we haven’t seen yet).

And yes, my view of Prophecies is extremely opinionated (I will cop to that rather than argue it isn’t), much like a lot of criticism of Guild Wars 2. The point stands – neither story is perfect or great, and have areas in which they is lacking. Most times, it’s not the voice acting. (MOST times. Rurik, Trahearne, Togo . . . )

Scarlet didn’t immediately grab my attention like some of the other GW characters (Koss, Zho, Gwen, Pyre Fierceshot, Lazarus & Anise off the top of my head), but I think it might not be inappropriate for them to do such a character.

Many times people want the staggeringly complex, darkish grey antivillain characters, but I don’t think people realize that those characters require much more build-up than a few line of text in a game (that most players will probably just skip through anyways to get to the shiny).

Scarlet’s personality is clear. A player within about ten seconds or so immediately gets that she’s the crazy type of bad guy. Good. I think insofar as a plot device goes, that’s sufficient. Sometimes simple is best.

Caradryan.1795:

Scarlet didn’t immediately grab my attention like some of the other GW characters (Koss, Zho, Gwen, Pyre Fierceshot, Lazarus & Anise off the top of my head), but I think it might not be inappropriate for them to do such a character.

Many times people want the staggeringly complex, darkish grey antivillain characters, but I don’t think people realize that those characters require much more build-up than a few line of text in a game (that most players will probably just skip through anyways to get to the shiny).

Scarlet’s personality is clear. A player within about ten seconds or so immediately gets that she’s the crazy type of bad guy. Good. I think insofar as a plot device goes, that’s sufficient. Sometimes simple is best.

Simple -can- be fine. The issue is she is apparently simple, while also having her hand in all these different pots. She is behind to much, doing to much, and her personality doesn’t match any of it.

People compare her to Joker a lot. And that’s just unfair to the Joker. At surface level? Yeah, they’re similar. But Joker is a much more self focused villain. He doesn’t care about others. Isn’t one for making or even encouraging Alliances, even goes so far as to attack and threaten other villain characters because when it comes down to it, he skirts the line between chaotic neutral and chaotic evil.

Joker has depth. Thus far, despite her apparently being active for almost a full year in the living story behind the scenes, Scarlet is one dimensional.

Scarlet is the anti-trahearne.

FateOmega.9601:

Scarlet is the anti-trahearne.

Well yeah, as I stated earlier:

Traehearne: Oh so perfect Slyvari who took all the glory from former heroes. United good guy factions despite them being more interesting standing on their own rather than merged into one generic blob.

Scarlet: Oh so perfect Slyvari who took all the glory from former villains. United bad guy factions despite them being more interesting standing on their own rather than merged into one generic blob.

Scarlet is Traehearne, only female and evil. With an extra dose of special snowflake.

Namica.2951:

FateOmega.9601:

Scarlet is the anti-trahearne.

Well yeah, as I stated earlier:

Traehearne: Oh so perfect Slyvari who took all the glory from former heroes. United good guy factions despite them being more interesting standing on their own rather than merged into one generic blob.

Scarlet: Oh so perfect Slyvari who took all the glory from former villains. United bad guy factions despite them being more interesting standing on their own rather than merged into one generic blob.

Scarlet is Traehearne, only female and evil. With an extra dose of special snowflake.

2 other differences, Saladmancer had a good initial plot (Sylvari personal story) then became the meme for kitten by the community (but for some reason kormir didnt get even half the rage during nightfall) with terrible voiceacting (but cool model/design) while Scarlet had a plain/bad/ass pull initial plot/setup (if you think about what we knew not what could be) but the community had shown how much more awesome it could be with a awesome voice (and a terrible model/they once again were too lazy to put the concept art into the game).

Andele.1306:

Namica.2951:

FateOmega.9601:

Scarlet is the anti-trahearne.

Well yeah, as I stated earlier:

Traehearne: Oh so perfect Slyvari who took all the glory from former heroes. United good guy factions despite them being more interesting standing on their own rather than merged into one generic blob.

Scarlet: Oh so perfect Slyvari who took all the glory from former villains. United bad guy factions despite them being more interesting standing on their own rather than merged into one generic blob.

Scarlet is Traehearne, only female and evil. With an extra dose of special snowflake.

2 other differences, Saladmancer had a good initial plot (Sylvari personal story) then became the meme for kitten by the community (but for some reason kormir didnt get even half the rage during nightfall) with terrible voiceacting (but cool model/design) while Scarlet had a plain/bad/ass pull initial plot/setup (if you think about what we knew not what could be) but the community had shown how much more awesome it could be with a awesome voice (and a terrible model/they once again were too lazy to put the concept art into the game).

I need to see him in the Sylvari opening someday. I suppose for us that didnt make a Salad, all we saw was a mary sue good guy who came in, everyone knew, people owed him favors, everyone respected him, the pale tree gave him a legendary weapon, he went past uniting faction and flat out merged them, and flat out took the limelight.

Felt completely forced, similar to Scarlet, who is a mary sue bad girl, who came in, everyone knew, people had grudges again, led organizations, and united factions that didnt need uniting, while also taking the limelight from anyone else (because now SHE is the mastermind, SHE is the focus).

Namica.2951:

Simple -can- be fine. The issue is she is apparently simple, while also having her hand in all these different pots. She is behind to much, doing to much, and her personality doesn’t match any of it.

Exactly right she just doesn’t fit.

In this living story, Scarlet is a rotten eggplant with the idea of “sadomasochism”. She just send the alliance armies to abuse and insult players to assault her, who can receive pleasure from either inflicting or receiving pains. And we all know there will be die die die etc… same as yes yes yes etc….some weird ideas across our guild.

After the Emissary Vorpp’s Field Assistant, our guildies went to the Scarlet’s Playhouse (Renamed after a patch, currently is called funhouse). Refers to the aspect of sexual orientation. Anyway, it was nothing more than using cannon balls and bombs to torture her. In the end, she said “you should feel happy…” No, we all felt uncomfortable.

I like Scarlet as a villain in terms of character, and the voice acting is brilliant, but I have to say she really appeared out of nowhere. She was hinted at during the previous living story when Rox was trying to snipe her, but otherwise she’s really just popped up.
I knew the watchknights would be evil the second I saw them though.

Andele.1306:

Namica.2951:

FateOmega.9601:

Scarlet is the anti-trahearne.

Well yeah, as I stated earlier:

Traehearne: Oh so perfect Slyvari who took all the glory from former heroes. United good guy factions despite them being more interesting standing on their own rather than merged into one generic blob.

Scarlet: Oh so perfect Slyvari who took all the glory from former villains. United bad guy factions despite them being more interesting standing on their own rather than merged into one generic blob.

Scarlet is Traehearne, only female and evil. With an extra dose of special snowflake.

2 other differences, Saladmancer had a good initial plot (Sylvari personal story) then became the meme for kitten by the community (but for some reason kormir didnt get even half the rage during nightfall) with terrible voiceacting (but cool model/design) while Scarlet had a plain/bad/ass pull initial plot/setup (if you think about what we knew not what could be) but the community had shown how much more awesome it could be with a awesome voice (and a terrible model/they once again were too lazy to put the concept art into the game).

Kormir absolutely got just as much crap as Trahearne did.

I really hate this character. She’s impossible to relate to, her backstory doesn’t feel like it was thought out at all, and worst of all she’s boring. The reason I do (or would do) living story missions are to experience the world and learn about the characters. I’m sure everyone’s already nit-picked away at Scarlet’s complete dead lack of innovation until only a skeleton remains, still annoyingly teasing and cackling away like some kind of unliving jester. But I’m not afraid to add my two cents, so here I go.

A lot of people have referenced Scarlet to Harley Quinn, or more frequently the Joker. I’m sure she’s got a lot in common with both on surface level, though I can’t say anything with a cemented degree of certainty. I am just some person on the internet, after all. Back to the topic, The Joker and Harley Quinn both have their deep personal goals, or at least something they enjoy doing- if The Dark Knight is to be believed. The reason they have those things is because without them, they two would be boring characters. Just another couple of random yahoos in dumb outfits. They need to have depth to justify action. Surely Joker would be less liked if he was just brought up out of nowhere, with his theme-park themed murder agenda- trumping the most powerful man in Gotham at his every turn.

Another thing our cartoon villains do in their cartoon world that’s more serious than our current Gw2 villains whom arn’t in a cartoon is pace themselves. I’m going to refferance the Dark Knight again, because a lot of people liked it and I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone complaining about the story- at least without being bludgeoned after. Anyways, The Joker paces himself. Starts out small, works himself up. Scarlet for the most part however, appears out of the blue. And we’re just told that all this stuff that we probably should’ve known all along. A bit insulting to those experiencing it, for us to just be presented with all this information and be accepted to just go with it.

In conclusion, I’d like to remind Anet that Personal Story is what’s supposed to keep us all interested in the Gw2 universe after we’ve leveled our characters and geared them up. These personal story efforts don’t really seem like the kind of reward I or anyone really wanted or was really asking for. This one in particuler seems very rushed, is extremely unpolished; I honestly feel like they’re stalling for something.

Something that probably makes them limit the kind of stuff they need to show ingame is a.) they have to export to countries that have stringent rulings on some subjects and b.) they’re limited by law on their ESRB rating, which is surprisingly a T.

In any case, that’s just my 2c.

It seems to me that the answer would be in giving the Living Story a 3-week rotation. That would give the staff time to polish up those loose ends we constantly seem to fret about, while destressing the players who feel constantly rushed into having to complete stuff OR ELSE!

Basically, even though it may sound very hippy, the game could benefit greatly from a deep, relaxing breath.

ThiBash.5634:

It seems to me that the answer would be in giving the Living Story a 3-week rotation. That would give the staff time to polish up those loose ends we constantly seem to fret about, while destressing the players who feel constantly rushed into having to complete stuff OR ELSE!

Basically, even though it may sound very hippy, the game could benefit greatly from a deep, relaxing breath.

I don’t think it would help people hate things less, I just think we’d hear about it less often.

Advent Leader.1083:

Something that probably makes them limit the kind of stuff they need to show ingame is a.) they have to export to countries that have stringent rulings on some subjects and b.) they’re limited by law on their ESRB rating, which is surprisingly a T.

In any case, that’s just my 2c.

Half decent characters aren’t something reserved for M and above.

I get the impression that GW2’s writers just aren’t very good at writing full complex characters. Characters that have clear and logical motivations, and are relatable. This goes for both villains and heroes. Most characters seem defined purely by their profession, their race, and a paper-thin goal with no motivation. A good character has good sides and bad sides, has hopes and dreams, hobbies, motivation, things they love, things they hate. I can’t find any of these things in either Scarlet, Trahearne, or all of Destinies Edge. They have no personality.

And, no… Crazy or boring is not a personality.

Namica.2951:

Advent Leader.1083:

Something that probably makes them limit the kind of stuff they need to show ingame is a.) they have to export to countries that have stringent rulings on some subjects and b.) they’re limited by law on their ESRB rating, which is surprisingly a T.

In any case, that’s just my 2c.

Half decent characters aren’t something reserved for M and above.

Worth pointing out, Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan is rated PG (a fact which surprises the heck out of me every time I go to be sure of it). So is most of Disney’s fare and there’s better than half-decent villains in there (despite the denigration of “Disney villain”).

And that includes “Gargoyles”.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I get the impression that GW2’s writers just aren’t very good at writing full complex characters.

I’m not so sure about that. We did get Vanguard Gwen, who was a bit more than “one note” for all the crap I give her, though some of that showed up in Guild Wars Beyond.

What I think is they just, as I said earlier, aim lower to be sure they hit the mark they want. Not shooting for something profound, just trying to be entertaining. That’s hard enough to do.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

(hey, there’s another villain “cuz I’m evil” sue – Shiro Tagachi).

Did you actually play through the campaign looking at the cinematics? He really wasn’t the (standard nowadays) “for the lulz” evil type. All his action – though undeniably very evil – had a very straithforward and easily understandable motivation.
He just wanted to live and he had no problem with resorting to mass murder to get what he wanted (which is also understandable, as being good at killing was his primary characteristic, and the reason why he ended as the Emperor’s bodyguard in the first place).
He wasn’t a complicated character, but he was believable.
Scarlet isn’t.

Astralporing.1957:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

(hey, there’s another villain “cuz I’m evil” sue – Shiro Tagachi).

Did you actually play through the campaign looking at the cinematics? He really wasn’t the (standard nowadays) “for the lulz” evil type. All his action – though undeniably very evil – had a very straithforward and easily understandable motivation.
He just wanted to live and he had no problem with resorting to mass murder to get what he wanted (which is also understandable, as being good at killing was his primary characteristic, and the reason why he ended as the Emperor’s bodyguard in the first place).
He wasn’t a complicated character, but he was believable.
Scarlet isn’t.

I did play through the campaign, but bear with me . . .

We didn’t understand a lot of that until roughly halfway through. We knew shortly off Shing Jea things were going on but there was an apparent . . . how to put this . . . there was an apparent lack of plan with the Afflicted other than to stir the pot. It’s not until we understand that Shiro needs to get to the Emperor, and why, things start falling into place.

But considering he is, indeed, immortal and untouchable for MOST of Factions . . . and doesn’t really lose any encounters with the players’ party? Added to the complete wealth of martial prowess? He could have a case made to be as much a villain sue.

I don’t make the case seriously in fact Shiro and how his history exists is the one thing I really like about the Factions storyline. I do this to bring up a point, though, and please try this experiment.

Play through Factions, and disregard the flashback cinematics letting you see into what went on with Shiro’s past. Now tell me you understand as well as you would have with them.

Scarlet badly needs something to ground her in the future, if the aim is to have her be more rounded.

Remillard.8691:

Egon Vidar.9125:

In the end, I think you missed my point, and many other people’s.

Don’t conflate not agreeing with your point with missing the point.

I’m not. When I need to say “that’s not what’s being asked for” multiple times in response as clarification, it seems a point was missed. I really, truly don’t care one whit if you like Scarlet and think she’s a fine character, and I’m not saying that to be rude, I’m being very sincere.

All of that being said, ANet’s story folks did try to put in some foreshadowing that the person exists. (Don’t recall the exact examples, but they’re up on the page here someplace.) The attempt to build up characters is there given that they cannot possibly have had the assets in place to begin with without having had this planned in advance of when they actually need it. They are making this up as they go along and they’re doing something no MMO has attempted to do thus far at the pace they’re doing it at.

I mentioned a few different ways they could have done this without having to go back to the very beginning of the game. In fact, the needed information (an inkling of what she’s all about and enough bits of her backstory to make her at least somewhat three dimensional) could have been implemented in the LS itself 1-3 months back with no issue. It wouldn’t have been difficult if there was at least a little planning ahead, and due to how it’s written, I sincerely have no idea if this character was planned only a week before the first mention of her name, or months prior. Hell, I can’t tell if they just came up with “villain name: scarlet” and left character concept until right before this update.

Anyway, aside from that, I believe I’m going to have to drop this particular line of discussion and, yes, agree to disagree. I can’t really seem to get what I’m saying through, and the last thing I want is for this to become a circular argument that drags on longer than it has already.

Remember the Refugee Child’s Drawing? I still have mine… anyway, what if in the background of that drawing there had been a mysterious (and funny-looking) green person with weird hair…

Tachenon.5270:

Remember the Refugee Child’s Drawing? I still have mine… anyway, what if in the background of that drawing there had been a mysterious (and funny-looking) green person with weird hair…

Which would be weird, since I always thought it was a drawing of “the hero” as a thank-you.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Tachenon.5270:

Remember the Refugee Child’s Drawing? I still have mine… anyway, what if in the background of that drawing there had been a mysterious (and funny-looking) green person with weird hair…

Which would be weird, since I always thought it was a drawing of “the hero” as a thank-you.

In the background. Some little something we might not even notice at first. We’d be all, ‘Awww, isn’t that sweet," and then "Say, that’s a funny looking tree. Wait. That’s not a tree! That’s a person. Who is that?’

Tachenon.5270:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Tachenon.5270:

Remember the Refugee Child’s Drawing? I still have mine… anyway, what if in the background of that drawing there had been a mysterious (and funny-looking) green person with weird hair…

Which would be weird, since I always thought it was a drawing of “the hero” as a thank-you.

In the background. Some little something we might not even notice at first. We’d be all, ‘Awww, isn’t that sweet," and then "Say, that’s a funny looking tree. Wait. That’s not a tree! That’s a person. Who is that?’

Good idea . . . but it could raise a lot of questions later. At least, that exact method. Personally, I’d have stuck it in the Order of Whispers dead-drop locations as an offhanded comment left. Or continued using them at ALL during the Living Story as a means of hiding information for player characters who were Whispers-affiliated.

I wonder if the same people that hate Scarlet hate Abaddon. Because if we are talking about clichés and overdone tropes, Abaddon takes the cake. Dark fallen god that comes out of no where, but he was secretly behind most/all the villains the hero faced previously? Talk about an overdone fantasy cliché.

Erukk.1408:

I wonder if the same people that hate Scarlet hate Abaddon. Because if we are talking about clichés and overdone tropes, Abaddon takes the cake. Dark fallen god that comes out of no where, but he was secretly behind most/all the villains the hero faced previously? Talk about an overdone fantasy cliché.

The difference is that abbadon’s explanation makes sense

it makes sense for a fallen god to be able to do those sorts of things

it doesnt make sense for a random sylvari to suddenly do things no-one thought possible

Until Nightfall I don’t remember anything about Abbadon’s existence.
Of course I came in during Factions and immediately bought Nightfall.

Problem with Abbadon is even though it might make sense, it has been done to death.
Of course, modern storytelling has been having this trouble for countless years.

Well, reading her short story made it rather clear that those people talking about her past having depth were dead wrong. We can add more to her sueness:

Master Smith
Master Sniper
Evil for the sake of being evil
Responsible for Asuran personal story

When will the sue-ing end? She was already a genius of stupidly large renown, and pretty much a female Traeherne. She is one of, if not thee biggest sue I’ve ever seen in an MMO.

Are you guys going to complain as well when she becomes a dead sue?

Brutalistik.6473:

Are you guys going to complain as well when she becomes a dead sue?

I’m sorry, I suppose it’s bad to expect a coherent plot from a game that sells itself on a “living world”.

Namica.2951:

Brutalistik.6473:

Are you guys going to complain as well when she becomes a dead sue?

I’m sorry, I suppose it’s bad to expect a coherent plot from a game that sells itself on a “living world”.

I’m just sayian……

Namica.2951:

Well, reading her short story made it rather clear that those people talking about her past having depth were dead wrong. We can add more to her sueness:

There’s depth there, but you’re right in that a lot of details got added which kind of tweak the detectors for “mary sue”. On the other hand, we got one very important part:

We saw there is in fact a personality in there other than “I’m going to mess up things and have fun”.

No, she’s not the deepest villain out there, but I’m noticing some parallels with our dear departed Vizier’s late goals before the Door of Komalie was shut.

just have to say, just look up the definition to Villain Sue & holy cow.. a giant image of Scarlet should be on the wiki page.
She pretty much killed the LS for me. & if SHE is the “Nemisis” ohhhh fffffff..
Of ALL the content they are making permanent.. the garbage with Scarlet is staying.. WOW.

We saw there is in fact a personality in there other than “I’m going to mess up things and have fun”.

Umm.. not if you read it.. Her whole personality is “I do what I want. & what I want is to mess stuff up”
Sorry, the Vizier was FAR more compelling. Died after trying to stop the Charr army while worshiping Abbadon & then was directly manipulated to open Komalie to allow Abbadon to begin his invasion & revenge against the gods. he had reasonable limitations & reasonable goals based on his experience. Scarlett was just given everything in attempt to make a dumb character menacing.

Just awful really.

I do find it funny that many people said her past would give us depth when her past gave more credence to the idea that she is a mary sue.