Guild Wars 2

Sykper.6583:

Arlette.9684:

Sykper.6583:

I think I have probably deviated from the point a bit at this time, but overall the problem is not necessarily warriors, but the battlefield that is unfair to everyone else. So rather than make warriors into the previous husks that they were in PvP much like everyone else, wouldn’t it be better if other professions had more capabilities to handle conditions, or at least more viable builds in PvP?

It’s easier for ANet to nerf 1 class than buff 7 others. ANet likes simple, makes them work less.

It’s not the right solution. Simple does not always make it right, you can’t make chess into checkers and expect things to play the same.

Tell that to them

One more way of make interruptible, is for example:

Passive:
Heals when enters in combat (according targeted foe proximity).

• Heal when range is less that 300: 400 health/s.
• Heal when range is between 300 and 600: 350 health/s.
• Heal when range is over than 600: 300 health/s.
  obs¹: No heal if isn’t targeting a foe (player, npc or structure as door, walls, trebuchet, boxes, etc…)
  obs²: Good scale with heal power.

Active:
Grant quickness for 1, 2 or 3 seconds, according adrenaline level.
obs¹: Do not heal.
obs²: Instant cast.

Qaelyn.7612:

Harper.4173:

Explain to me again how warriors do too much for the ability it takes to play one?

I already did, several times. You ignored all those arguments, so it seems pointless to repeat them.

The fact that there’s one class that’s better than them in a few particular areas. It’s that the overall package is overpowered.

A few particular areas? That’s literally EVERY facet of the game.
Even in the AOE department which i forgot to mention Engis and Eles outperform.
You’re doing a wonderful job of being biased against warriors – keep it up!

Thedenofsin.7340:

Harper.4173:

Qaelyn.7612:

It proves that people believe that the announced change is insufficient and that more needs to be done to fix an overpowered class that can do too much for the ability it requires.

And that they are frustrated what they (correctly) perceive as a stubborn unwillingness on the part of Arenanet to accept that they’ve created a situation where one class dominates most of the others.

Bunker : Guardian > Warrior
Support and healing allies : Ele/ Guardian > Warrior
Solo roaming in WvW : Mesmer > Warrior
Single target damage ( PVP) : Thief / Mesmer > Warrior
Single target damage ( PVE) : Ele/Thief/Guardian > Warrior
Might stacking: Ele/ Guardian > Warrior
Utility ( PVE – blocks, reflects, boons): Guardian> Warrior
Condition damage: Necro/Engineer> Warrior

Explain to me again how warriors do too much for the ability it takes to play one?
Also playing a warrior RIGHT in HIGH-END situations is difficult. It’s the in-between areas where the class is simpler than others but then again as I’ve posted above it cannot specialize as well.
Or are you going to ignore that now and just rant on about the 30/30/30/30/30 4 weapon set build?

Warrior > Guardian
Warrior > Ele
Warrior > Mesmer
Warrior > Engineer
Warrior > Ranger
Warrior > Thief
Warrior > Engineer

Stop with the silly arguments. Everyone knows warriors are overpowered. Hell the developers about 4 months ago acknowledged they overbuffed warriors. Every competitive player knows it. Every developer knows it. The only people who do not either are immensely biased or are bad at sPvP. Or both.

Jesus, look at the dev posts in this thread. They even acknowledge they made a mistake and overbuffed warriors.

The only reason why they are suggesting just an 8% decrease is that someone on that developer team is too proud to admit they made an egregious error.

Nowhere did i see a dev saying " we overbuffed warriors, oopsie".
Also I love how you took my post that was meaningful and actually reflected the real state of the game and just spammed Warrior > all because you feel like it.
We must play a different game because in all those areas I posted and you ignored warriors are outperformed.

Just shows you and people like you are a dangerous combination of misinformed and malicious with frustrated slapped right on top.
Keep hatin’.

Kargath.6598:

Thedenofsin.7340:

Harper.4173:

Qaelyn.7612:

It proves that people believe that the announced change is insufficient and that more needs to be done to fix an overpowered class that can do too much for the ability it requires.

And that they are frustrated what they (correctly) perceive as a stubborn unwillingness on the part of Arenanet to accept that they’ve created a situation where one class dominates most of the others.

Bunker : Guardian > Warrior
Support and healing allies : Ele/ Guardian > Warrior
Solo roaming in WvW : Mesmer > Warrior
Single target damage ( PVP) : Thief / Mesmer > Warrior
Single target damage ( PVE) : Ele/Thief/Guardian > Warrior
Might stacking: Ele/ Guardian > Warrior
Utility ( PVE – blocks, reflects, boons): Guardian> Warrior
Condition damage: Necro/Engineer> Warrior

Explain to me again how warriors do too much for the ability it takes to play one?
Also playing a warrior RIGHT in HIGH-END situations is difficult. It’s the in-between areas where the class is simpler than others but then again as I’ve posted above it cannot specialize as well.
Or are you going to ignore that now and just rant on about the 30/30/30/30/30 4 weapon set build?

Warrior > Guardian
Warrior > Ele
Warrior > Mesmer
Warrior > Engineer
Warrior > Ranger
Warrior > Thief
Warrior > Engineer

Stop with the silly arguments. Everyone knows warriors are overpowered. Hell the developers about 4 months ago acknowledged they overbuffed warriors. Every competitive player knows it. Every developer knows it. The only people who do not either are immensely biased or are bad at sPvP. Or both.

Jesus, look at the dev posts in this thread. They even acknowledge they made a mistake and overbuffed warriors.

The only reason why they are suggesting just an 8% decrease is that someone on that developer team is too proud to admit they made an egregious error.

Every one who compllains about warriors being too powerful needs to do 2 things

1) Go to the leader boards and ask top ranked what class they are playing I BET YOU ITS NOT WARRIOR

2) Play a warrior in spvp.

They won’t -requires too much effort and GUESS WHAT – they might find out they’re wrong. Although they know that already and still keep going!

RyuDragnier.9476:

Harper.4173:

Warrior’s buffs were intended to be the ruin of the old condition meta. Before this came along the meta was " Spam conditions to win".
You need a power build. This is what a meta shift is.

B is better versus A. more players play B. After a while along comes C being better than B and players shift to C. You need to get on whatever beats C.

Also Milkzz makes a good point.

1 class getting such a buff does not equal a meta shift. MULTIPLE classes getting such a buff would be a meta shift. Just one getting it is an attempt to make that clkitten underpowered against the said meta. They need to add such a change in buff to other classes for the meta to change, but in this case such a change would be a passive meta, meaning passive would beat out against actives, something nobody wants.

But you see my friend the people in this thread have not asked for and I doubt they’d care about buffs for other professions. They just want warriors to be ruined so they can feel satisfied.

Except you don’t see people wanting them to REVERT the change on the signet, we’re all asking for a medium ground between how it was formally and how it is now. And not one person here is asking for the active to stay the same, we all want the active to be better so Warriors will actually use the signet so we have that downtime against the passive effect of the signet.

Rednik.3809:

Arganthium.5638:

Ele- don’t even start that crap with me. Ether Renewal is an absolutely godawful source of condi removal, if only because of the fact that it is so easily interruptible.

If you are constantly interrupted – this is your personal l2p issue.

Engineer- that “large” part isn’t really that large, and relies on your allies being at least somewhat close to you

What is on-point fighting. Also, lol’d at “heavy armor” argument.

Arganthium.5638:

Guardian- if you can’t wait until Shelter is finished to burst an opponent, you shouldn’t play a burst build.

Everybody will suddenly stop unloading abilities bunker at first sight of shelter. In imaginary world, I presume.

Arganthium.5638:

Necro- necros don’t have that many ways to get rid of condis already

We talking about healing skills, and you are trying to switch topic.

Arganthium.5638:

Ranger- not many other condi clears in the first place outside of Empathic Bond (which is getting nerfed/debugged anyways). Rangers also have very, very few ways to actually utilize the water field by themselves

Ranger have blast and leaps, and ofc you again trying to slip away by “forgetting” about teammates who can utilize this field even more. Also -“heavy armor” argument again, lol.

Arganthium.5638:

Thief- you can easily get gap creators with weapons like Sword and Greatsword. The condition clear only applies to very specific condis, and honestly neither of those are enough to justify not getting 392/360 HPS with no cast time whatsoever.

Aka you again trying to switch from skill discussion to class discussion.

Arganthium.5638:

Warrior- so we’ve finally gotten here… Do you still really believe that Healing Signet is weaker than or on average with other healing skills in the game? It has no cast time (meaning no lost damage potential, no lost defensive potential, and no lost healing potential), is less counterable by poison (you have to maintain constant poison uptime in order to get the full reduction from poison), and, when combined with warrior’s other amazing defensive options, is downright OP. Cleansing Ire and Zerker Stance get rid of most of the problems with conditions that warriors ever have. Meanwhile, warrior still has the highest base health in the game except for necro, which doesn’t have the 14% damage reduction from heavy armor anyways.

And that’s why we see so much warrior bunkers in tPvP instead of guardians. Oh wait, we don’t.
Also, you always forgetting to point at little thing about your “heavy armor” arguments. 14% between heavy and light armor is in 0-0-0-0-0 build without any bonuses and stats, aka glassiest glass. Any defensive stats are decreasing this % rapidly.

Ele- yeah, I need to L2P so that I can counter interrupts when I can’t even evade. Nice. 0/10 didn’t even make an effort.

Engineer- what a brilliant and detailed counterargument.

Guardian- this legitimately is a L2P issue. It’s not my fault (or the dev’s fault, for that matter) if you’re still attacking a guard while he’s blocking with Shelter.

Necro- you were the one that originally said that this was one of the best condi clears in the game. I award you no points, and may Cthulu have mercy on your soul.

Ranger- yeah they have like infinitely many blast finishers, and leaps? Hoo boy, they can spam Monarch’s Leap and Swoop like there’s no tomorrow. I didn’t “forget” anything having to do with teammates, either. Anyways, though- I presume you don’t know much about Water Field finishers, because blasts and leaps really don’t provide that much healing. It’s good to combo it a few times, but after that you’re just wasting your damage potential. Either way, the healing on this skill is still terrible compared to warrior.

Thief- … You should really stop bringing up stuff and then turning and saying that I’m trying to change the discussion.

Warrior- I didn’t even say anything about warrior bunkers, 0/10. You don’t need to bunker anyways because you’re already super tanky. And of course I’m talking about 0/0/0/0/0, otherwise we start comparing builds and that’s much different from comparing classes. I’ll tell you that there are many non-glass builds (though still high-damage) out there that don’t have more than 2127 armor. It simply gives warrior much more freedom than other builds get. As for that % decreasing “rapidly”…. Below is a screenshot of the amount by which that % decreases for each point of toughness assuming that each time a light armor class gets 1 point of toughness, so does warrior. That’s the derivative of the function (2127+x)/(1836+x), and unless you think that a <-.005% difference for each point of toughness is high, you can rest assured that your statement is quite obviously false.

The funny thing about shelter is that its healing per second value is lower than healing signet ACTIVE (especially with trait) not including any passive regen. Do 2 seconds of block every 30 seconds = indefinite 400hps?

I wonder what the new active will be like. I hope it’s something like heal + vigor. I think that would be a lot of lolz with vigor on stance, warhorn 5 and sigil of energy. I can just imagine the cries filling up the forums.

all the people that are complaining about warriors need to roll one and play it in more than just CoF path 1 and CoE.

JonPeters.5630:

The biggest problem is IMO is actually the active heal. If we reduce the passive without doing something to make the active useful, we are just creating a different problem. Truly the active on this skill right now is in the following place. When I see someone press it I think “No No No don’t do that!” We are discussion some options here so if you want this to be constructive give suggestions towards improving the active. Reducing the passive is easy to do but we will not do it without solving the other problem. Also we will not greatly reduce it because it is giving Warriors a sense of sturdiness that we want their profession to have. Without strong heals, Warriors feel too much like everyone else. Setting them apart with strong heals has been good for changing their playstyle feel, but we agree it needs some tweaks.

Jon

Virtues have been said to help balance the guardian; for example, they have a lower base health than the warrior profession but compensate for this with their higher health regeneration granted by Virtue of Resolve.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guardian

You guys should update wiki more often! That statement is definitely not true.

Aza.2105:

JonPeters.5630:

The biggest problem is IMO is actually the active heal. If we reduce the passive without doing something to make the active useful, we are just creating a different problem. Truly the active on this skill right now is in the following place. When I see someone press it I think “No No No don’t do that!” We are discussion some options here so if you want this to be constructive give suggestions towards improving the active. Reducing the passive is easy to do but we will not do it without solving the other problem. Also we will not greatly reduce it because it is giving Warriors a sense of sturdiness that we want their profession to have. Without strong heals, Warriors feel too much like everyone else. Setting them apart with strong heals has been good for changing their playstyle feel, but we agree it needs some tweaks.

Jon

Virtues have been said to help balance the guardian; for example, they have a lower base health than the warrior profession but compensate for this with their higher health regeneration granted by Virtue of Resolve.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guardian

You guys should update wiki more often! That statement is definitely not true.

Thank you, sir. You just made my day

Why is it so bad to let Anet try balancing in smaller steps? They’re gonna apply a small nerf, see how that affects things and then see if it needs further changing. Why must it be a HUGE nerf all at once?

You’ve been heard, ArenaNet is acting upon it…wait with the complaints until the next patch is out, ok?

ThiBash.5634:

Why is it so bad to let Anet try balancing in smaller steps? They’re gonna apply a small nerf, see how that affects things and then see if it needs further changing. Why must it be a HUGE nerf all at once?

You’ve been heard, ArenaNet is acting upon it…wait with the complaints until the next patch is out, ok?

Never stopped ANet in the past from slamming down huge (up to 50% with little to no compensation) nerfs to every other class. So it makes you wonder why now they suddenly pull the minimalist card when it concerns Warrior.

Because you can be sure that in the end Healing Signet passive might only get reduced by 5%. And you can bet your trunk-monkey that the active will be ‘compensated’ by a 25% buff.

Arganthium.5638:

Text

Rednik.3809

You guys forgot mesmer. I really wanna read lovely tears about mesmer how that is a l2p issue too.

Anyhow, it’s kittened how superior warrior is in this game. While it’s one of the easiest to play classes, it’s also good almost everywhere in game.

Ill start by saying I don’t really care if they’ll nerf it or not and really don’t want to open a new discussion about it. Just wanted to present a few fact so that people will get over this issue already.

Here is list comparing a few heal skills, facts only:

Warrior ‘Healing signet’
Heal: 392hp evrey sec
CD: 0
hps: 392
% base health: 1/47
full health after: 47sec
Other effects: none

Engineer ‘healing turret’
Heal: deploy + cleansing burst + blow = 6360hp + 1040hp (8sec regen)
CD: 20sec
hps: 370hps
% base health: 50
full health after: 40sec
Other effects: 2 condi cleanse, almost half of it is aoe. (also scales great with healing power)

Thief ‘Withdraw’
Heal: 4344hp
CD: 15sec
hps: 290
% base health: 40
full health after: 37.5sec
Other effects: 0.75 evade, clear immobilize, cripple and chill, gap closer/creator.

Mesmer ‘Ether feast’
Heal: with 3 clones = 7480
CD: 20sec
hps: 374
% base health: 50
Full health after: 40sec
Other effects: none

Of course HS is a bit different coz you don’t need to activate it, so u can’t get interpreted but you can’t take advantage of ‘on heal’ effect many rune set have , and very suspectable to burst, so let call it even.
So in this comparison we get HS has a small lead in hps, no special affects and actually the worst heal to base health percentage by 7sec. Personally, I would take any of these other 3 skills instead of HS on my warrior.

GL HF kitten

You conveniently don’t mention that the Warrior has 18,372 base hp and around 22k in a Berserker spec in WvW after Applied Fortitude.

Time to full heal is meaningless.

Healing Signet provides the most personal healing of all the heals and the most effective because it is healing the moment you take damage, it heals when you dodge roll, become immune to damage or conditions, when you shield block when you use your combat charging abilities to run away. It can’t be interrupted.

You’re either a bad troll or just lacking the ability to look at the big picture.

OMG awesome !!!!
If i follow the same logic increasing HP of warriors by 50 000 woud become a hudge nerf to HS…
…You know what ?….
It would’nt !

Take your time…breath slowly…I’m sure you will get it ;-)

Eiland.1405:

Ill start by saying I don’t really care if they’ll nerf it or not and really don’t want to open a new discussion about it.

Then don’t open a new discussion about it and then provide facts without context.

Eiland.1405:

You all are right, it was too fast, shouldve thought of all you slow thinkers.
Here is another FACT:
Game is balanced by devs as warriors have base HP of 18k.
if you are saying the ‘return to full health’ is not a good measure because warrior (and necros) has the most HP its basically saying that before a fight even began:
warrior >> others classes if no ones uses heals.
Now this may be true or not but it’s a whole different issue and not related to HS.
If say game was balanced for warriors with 15K hp, then HS would heal to full at 37sec which sounds definitely stronger and might have been OP compared to others,
but again it isn’t.

And here is another something to think about for the guy with ’it’s always on’ answer.
Engi vs warrior on a fight that takes
70sec: engi heals at 10, 30 ,50, 70 = 4*7400 / 70 = 422hps
50sec: engi heals at 10sec, 30 and 50 = 3*7400 / 50 = 443hps
30sec: engi heals at 10sec, 30 = 2*7400 /30 = 493hps
much more then HS 392.
You can see that the shorter the fight the better normal heals are. Of course this is just an example of potential and any fight can go differently, one can use he’s heal every 30sec, or not use it at all, that’s up to you, point is potential is there.
HS is fixed 392hps for better or worst, if your heals get interpreted all time coz you play like a noob then its for the better, but if u can burst down real fast and cast your heals when invisible, or the heal is an evade or a block or its knock ppl back anyhow then HS is a sure disadvantage.

You can’t throw around those numbers and exclude the signet active heal. The problem with the heal signet is that you get the passive heal ON TOP OF the ability to use an active heal. so add another 4k HP or so to that heal number.

The biggest problem is IMO is actually the active heal. If we reduce the passive without doing something to make the active useful, we are just creating a different problem. Truly the active on this skill right now is in the following place. When I see someone press it I think “No No No don’t do that!” We are discussion some options here so if you want this to be constructive give suggestions towards improving the active. Reducing the passive is easy to do but we will not do it without solving the other problem. Also we will not greatly reduce it because it is giving Warriors a sense of sturdiness that we want their profession to have. Without strong heals, Warriors feel too much like everyone else. Setting them apart with strong heals has been good for changing their playstyle feel, but we agree it needs some tweaks.

Jon

You are showing an awful lot of concern about nerfing a healing skill that is universally considered too strong, yet you’re willing to nerf vampiric master without a second glance despite the fact that siphoning is already in a weak place. Why are you making the warrior’s sustain better but nerfing the necromancer’s? Is the warrior gonna be the king of both damage and sustain?

Eiland.1405:

Engi vs warrior on a fight that takes
70sec: engi heals at 10, 30 ,50, 70 = 4*7400 / 70 = 422hps
50sec: engi heals at 10sec, 30 and 50 = 3*7400 / 50 = 443hps
30sec: engi heals at 10sec, 30 = 2*7400 /30 = 493hps
much more then HS 392.

Interesting. Let me point out one flaw of your thought process.

10s fight. 7400/10 = 740hps.
5s fight. 7400/5 = 1480 hps.

That is not how it works. If you want to calculate the HPS to compare skills you might want to use the CD. You also might want to keep in mind that you expect the Engineer to perform some keyboard acrobatics (deploy, overcharge, blast and pick it up) to actually gain this level of healing while Warrior does… nothing.

So if the Engineer got to deploy, overcharge, blast and pick it up…

7400/20 = 370 hps.

That is already less than the HS. If he didn’t manage to blast it it would be even weaker. And if the turret got destroyed before overcharging the heal will be very crappy.

JonPeters.5630:

The biggest problem is IMO is actually the active heal. If we reduce the passive without doing something to make the active useful, we are just creating a different problem. Truly the active on this skill right now is in the following place. When I see someone press it I think “No No No don’t do that!” We are discussion some options here so if you want this to be constructive give suggestions towards improving the active. Reducing the passive is easy to do but we will not do it without solving the other problem. Also we will not greatly reduce it because it is giving Warriors a sense of sturdiness that we want their profession to have. Without strong heals, Warriors feel too much like everyone else. Setting them apart with strong heals has been good for changing their playstyle feel, but we agree it needs some tweaks.

Jon

Passive

• Decrease base healing value
• Increase healing coefficient

Nobody is against a sense of sturdiness. However, it should come with some form of investment. The HS will remain an attractive option for hybrid or tanky builds but not so much for dps builds because it now requires a certain amount of healing power.

Active

• Increase healing coefficient
• Add 3s of Protection

While I would usually be against providing Warriors with Protection in this case it might actually make sense. Right now, Warriors would be too vulnerable when activating the signet. Protection might make using the active more attractive.

Eiland.1405:

Ill start by saying I don’t really care if they’ll nerf it or not and really don’t want to open a new discussion about it. Just wanted to present a few fact so that people will get over this issue already.

Here is list comparing a few heal skills, facts only:

Warrior ‘Healing signet’
Heal: 392hp evrey sec
CD: 0
hps: 392
% base health: 1/47
full health after: 47sec
Other effects: none

Engineer ‘healing turret’
Heal: deploy + cleansing burst + blow = 6360hp + 1040hp (8sec regen)
CD: 20sec
hps: 370hps
% base health: 50
full health after: 40sec
Other effects: 2 condi cleanse, almost half of it is aoe. (also scales great with healing power)

Thief ‘Withdraw’
Heal: 4344hp
CD: 15sec
hps: 290
% base health: 40
full health after: 37.5sec
Other effects: 0.75 evade, clear immobilize, cripple and chill, gap closer/creator.

Mesmer ‘Ether feast’
Heal: with 3 clones = 7480
CD: 20sec
hps: 374
% base health: 50
Full health after: 40sec
Other effects: none

Of course HS is a bit different coz you don’t need to activate it, so u can’t get interpreted but you can’t take advantage of ‘on heal’ effect many rune set have , and very suspectable to burst, so let call it even.
So in this comparison we get HS has a small lead in hps, no special affects and actually the worst heal to base health percentage by 7sec. Personally, I would take any of these other 3 skills instead of HS on my warrior.

GL HF kitten

lol wat

warrior has the biggest HP pool

TLDR - Too many suggestion requiring a lot of variables which makes it difficult to code.

Healing Signet now:

392+ (0.05 * HP)

Suggested HS change:

275+ (0.15 * HP)

Example 1:

275+ (0.15 * 0) = 275

275+ (0.15 * 300) = 320

275+ (0.15 * 1000) = 425

275+ (0.15 * 2000) = 575

--------------------------------------

Bump base heal up to 4275 with (0.5) healing power coefficient.

Eiland.1405:

You all are right, it was too fast, shouldve thought of all you slow thinkers.
Here is another FACT:
Game is balanced by devs as warriors have base HP of 18k.
if you are saying the ‘return to full health’ is not a good measure because warrior (and necros) has the most HP its basically saying that before a fight even began:
warrior >> others classes if no ones uses heals.
Now this may be true or not but it’s a whole different issue and not related to HS.
If say game was balanced for warriors with 15K hp, then HS would heal to full at 37sec which sounds definitely stronger and might have been OP compared to others,
but again it isn’t.

This hurt to read. I would like to kindly ask you to stop posting such biased (and generally offensive – like the first sentence of your post) arguments.

Healing per second is calculated by taking the healing skill’s cool-down and activation time into account. Time to full health is completely biased because different professions have different base HP. Dismissing this as a different issue does not work with a balance discussion, because the HP is still there so it needs to be taken into account.
Having said that, the profession’s defensive mechanics need to be taken into account as well when balancing. This means the higher base armor of the Warrior needs to be taken into account, as do the defensive utility skills and traits. But most of all its’ weaknesses.

The Warrior profession is currently not punished for taking defensive traits and still does a lot of damage. Their healing skill of choice allows for going all-out offense as it is not required to activate it. To some extend the Warrior looks to be the embodiment of ArenaNet’s “Every class can fit every role.” mentality. This is certainly not a bad thing…

…However, comparing the Warrior to the rest of the professions in the game is like comparing a working class mechanic to the Ranger’s pet. Both need to be brought up to par, but in order to get there the entire game needs an overhaul. Before we get anywhere near that point the only logical course of action is toning down the currently overpowering profession.

It as been said before… There is a reason why warr as lots of HP and AC. We lack buff or exotic mechanics.

Eiland.1405:

Ill start by saying I don’t really care if they’ll nerf it or not and really don’t want to open a new discussion about it. Just wanted to present a few fact so that people will get over this issue already.

Here is list comparing a few heal skills, facts only:

Warrior ‘Healing signet’
Heal: 392hp evrey sec
CD: 0
hps: 392
% base health: 1/47
full health after: 47sec
Other effects: none

Engineer ‘healing turret’
Heal: deploy + cleansing burst + blow = 6360hp + 1040hp (8sec regen)
CD: 20sec
hps: 370hps
% base health: 50
full health after: 40sec
Other effects: 2 condi cleanse, almost half of it is aoe. (also scales great with healing power)

Thief ‘Withdraw’
Heal: 4344hp
CD: 15sec
hps: 290
% base health: 40
full health after: 37.5sec
Other effects: 0.75 evade, clear immobilize, cripple and chill, gap closer/creator.

Mesmer ‘Ether feast’
Heal: with 3 clones = 7480
CD: 20sec
hps: 374
% base health: 50
Full health after: 40sec
Other effects: none

Of course HS is a bit different coz you don’t need to activate it, so u can’t get interpreted but you can’t take advantage of ‘on heal’ effect many rune set have , and very suspectable to burst, so let call it even.
So in this comparison we get HS has a small lead in hps, no special affects and actually the worst heal to base health percentage by 7sec. Personally, I would take any of these other 3 skills instead of HS on my warrior.

GL HF kitten

So, Warrior healing signet is superior to all other heals in the game, even if the other classes perfectly manage theirs and the warrior just AFKs.

Thanks, I’m glad you agree it is incredibly overpowered.

JorneMormel.9850:

Eiland.1405:

You all are right, it was too fast, shouldve thought of all you slow thinkers.
Here is another FACT:
Game is balanced by devs as warriors have base HP of 18k.
if you are saying the ‘return to full health’ is not a good measure because warrior (and necros) has the most HP its basically saying that before a fight even began:
warrior >> others classes if no ones uses heals.
Now this may be true or not but it’s a whole different issue and not related to HS.
If say game was balanced for warriors with 15K hp, then HS would heal to full at 37sec which sounds definitely stronger and might have been OP compared to others,
but again it isn’t.

This hurt to read. I would like to kindly ask you to stop posting such biased (and generally offensive – like the first sentence of your post) arguments.

Healing per second is calculated by taking the healing skill’s cool-down and activation time into account. Time to full health is completely biased because different professions have different base HP. Dismissing this as a different issue does not work with a balance discussion, because the HP is still there so it needs to be taken into account.
Having said that, the profession’s defensive mechanics need to be taken into account as well when balancing. This means the higher base armor of the Warrior needs to be taken into account, as do the defensive utility skills and traits. But most of all its’ weaknesses.

The Warrior profession is currently not punished for taking defensive traits and still does a lot of damage. Their healing skill of choice allows for going all-out offense as it is not required to activate it. To some extend the Warrior looks to be the embodiment of ArenaNet’s “Every class can fit every role.” mentality. This is certainly not a bad thing…

…However, comparing the Warrior to the rest of the professions in the game is like comparing a working class mechanic to the Ranger’s pet. Both need to be brought up to par, but in order to get there the entire game needs an overhaul. Before we get anywhere near that point the only logical course of action is toning down the currently overpowering profession.

I agree with you that a Warrior when specing for tanking doesn’t lose enough damage. On the flip side, when a Warrior actually does spec for doing damage they simply lose too much defense to remain viable. So something needs to be done about this.

What I have a problem with is the remainder of your point. Most would agree that the Warrior is currently over the top, but most can’t agree by how much. I think the easiest way to figure this out is ask yourself if you feel the Warrior is standing above the other classes. And try to be honest with this unlike earlier posts that claim the Warrior > * in every mode, forever.

Sure, when compared against a Ranger the Warrior is horrendously overpowered. Nearly every class is.

But when compared to Guardians, Necromancers, Thieves, or Engineers, are Warriors still seen as some unstoppable juggernaut? Or would you say they’re fairly well balanced when you look at these sets of classes?

That’s the problem I have with the overwhelming majority of posts in this thread. They don’t look at this problem objectively. The problem is the Warrior is overpowered and needs to be nerfed. We all can agree. the issue is most of you don’t want it to remain competetive like Guardians, Thieves, Necromancers, and Engineers. You want it evisceerated so no one would ever play the class again.

Slight tweaks is all that’s required for the Warrior because it’s really no better or worse than half of the classes in the game. The few ‘real’ problems the class actually has aren’t even directly related to healing signet and trying to nerf healing signet first instead of at least acknowledging the real problems with the class will end up with Warriors being worthless in this game once again.

Healing Signet is really over the top by somewhere between 15-20%. Conservatively, say 15%.

Even if you change HS, the other problem you are left with is that warriors still don’t have any particular weaknesses. When you look at other classes, they all possess weaknesses that make class-stacking on a team undesirable. Thieves cannot hold a point, mesmers are too squishy and susceptible to conditions, necromancers are easily trained down, guardians and spirit rangers don’t do enough damage, etc. Warriors have high stability uptime, lots of condi clears, high armor, blocks, Endure Pain, can deal out good damage as well as incredibly high (70%+) uptime for AoE fire fields entirely covering almost any node.

A while back Chap said that if they saw the meta shifting to carrying 2x of a profession, it was a sign the class was OP (i.e. back when we saw 2xele teams).

Atherakhia.4086:

JorneMormel.9850:

Eiland.1405:

You all are right, it was too fast, shouldve thought of all you slow thinkers.
Here is another FACT:
Game is balanced by devs as warriors have base HP of 18k.
if you are saying the ‘return to full health’ is not a good measure because warrior (and necros) has the most HP its basically saying that before a fight even began:
warrior >> others classes if no ones uses heals.
Now this may be true or not but it’s a whole different issue and not related to HS.
If say game was balanced for warriors with 15K hp, then HS would heal to full at 37sec which sounds definitely stronger and might have been OP compared to others,
but again it isn’t.

This hurt to read. I would like to kindly ask you to stop posting such biased (and generally offensive – like the first sentence of your post) arguments.

Healing per second is calculated by taking the healing skill’s cool-down and activation time into account. Time to full health is completely biased because different professions have different base HP. Dismissing this as a different issue does not work with a balance discussion, because the HP is still there so it needs to be taken into account.
Having said that, the profession’s defensive mechanics need to be taken into account as well when balancing. This means the higher base armor of the Warrior needs to be taken into account, as do the defensive utility skills and traits. But most of all its’ weaknesses.

The Warrior profession is currently not punished for taking defensive traits and still does a lot of damage. Their healing skill of choice allows for going all-out offense as it is not required to activate it. To some extend the Warrior looks to be the embodiment of ArenaNet’s “Every class can fit every role.” mentality. This is certainly not a bad thing…

…However, comparing the Warrior to the rest of the professions in the game is like comparing a working class mechanic to the Ranger’s pet. Both need to be brought up to par, but in order to get there the entire game needs an overhaul. Before we get anywhere near that point the only logical course of action is toning down the currently overpowering profession.

I agree with you that a Warrior when specing for tanking doesn’t lose enough damage. On the flip side, when a Warrior actually does spec for doing damage they simply lose too much defense to remain viable. So something needs to be done about this.

What I have a problem with is the remainder of your point. Most would agree that the Warrior is currently over the top, but most can’t agree by how much. I think the easiest way to figure this out is ask yourself if you feel the Warrior is standing above the other classes. And try to be honest with this unlike earlier posts that claim the Warrior > * in every mode, forever.

Sure, when compared against a Ranger the Warrior is horrendously overpowered. Nearly every class is.

But when compared to Guardians, Necromancers, Thieves, or Engineers, are Warriors still seen as some unstoppable juggernaut? Or would you say they’re fairly well balanced when you look at these sets of classes?

That’s the problem I have with the overwhelming majority of posts in this thread. They don’t look at this problem objectively. The problem is the Warrior is overpowered and needs to be nerfed. We all can agree. the issue is most of you don’t want it to remain competetive like Guardians, Thieves, Necromancers, and Engineers. You want it evisceerated so no one would ever play the class again.

Slight tweaks is all that’s required for the Warrior because it’s really no better or worse than half of the classes in the game. The few ‘real’ problems the class actually has aren’t even directly related to healing signet and trying to nerf healing signet first instead of at least acknowledging the real problems with the class will end up with Warriors being worthless in this game once again.

bravo my friend bravo and I main a warrior and I can agree with you mostly.

(I don’t run a very defensive warrior so no comment) imo I don’ think the warrior community is against minor tweaks but also many are unnerved for what ever reason when the warrior is touched most likely because of the state it was in prior when we were viewed as free kills.

the warrior is made to be some sort of monster it’s not in a lot of ways I’d say it’s rather balanced not perfect no class is but not nearly as bad as it’s made out to be.

Atherakhia.4086:

JorneMormel.9850:

Eiland.1405:

You all are right, it was too fast, shouldve thought of all you slow thinkers.
Here is another FACT:
Game is balanced by devs as warriors have base HP of 18k.
if you are saying the ‘return to full health’ is not a good measure because warrior (and necros) has the most HP its basically saying that before a fight even began:
warrior >> others classes if no ones uses heals.
Now this may be true or not but it’s a whole different issue and not related to HS.
If say game was balanced for warriors with 15K hp, then HS would heal to full at 37sec which sounds definitely stronger and might have been OP compared to others,
but again it isn’t.

This hurt to read. I would like to kindly ask you to stop posting such biased (and generally offensive – like the first sentence of your post) arguments.

Healing per second is calculated by taking the healing skill’s cool-down and activation time into account. Time to full health is completely biased because different professions have different base HP. Dismissing this as a different issue does not work with a balance discussion, because the HP is still there so it needs to be taken into account.
Having said that, the profession’s defensive mechanics need to be taken into account as well when balancing. This means the higher base armor of the Warrior needs to be taken into account, as do the defensive utility skills and traits. But most of all its’ weaknesses.

The Warrior profession is currently not punished for taking defensive traits and still does a lot of damage. Their healing skill of choice allows for going all-out offense as it is not required to activate it. To some extend the Warrior looks to be the embodiment of ArenaNet’s “Every class can fit every role.” mentality. This is certainly not a bad thing…

…However, comparing the Warrior to the rest of the professions in the game is like comparing a working class mechanic to the Ranger’s pet. Both need to be brought up to par, but in order to get there the entire game needs an overhaul. Before we get anywhere near that point the only logical course of action is toning down the currently overpowering profession.

I agree with you that a Warrior when specing for tanking doesn’t lose enough damage. On the flip side, when a Warrior actually does spec for doing damage they simply lose too much defense to remain viable. So something needs to be done about this.

What I have a problem with is the remainder of your point. Most would agree that the Warrior is currently over the top, but most can’t agree by how much. I think the easiest way to figure this out is ask yourself if you feel the Warrior is standing above the other classes. And try to be honest with this unlike earlier posts that claim the Warrior > * in every mode, forever.

Sure, when compared against a Ranger the Warrior is horrendously overpowered. Nearly every class is.

But when compared to Guardians, Necromancers, Thieves, or Engineers, are Warriors still seen as some unstoppable juggernaut? Or would you say they’re fairly well balanced when you look at these sets of classes?

That’s the problem I have with the overwhelming majority of posts in this thread. They don’t look at this problem objectively. The problem is the Warrior is overpowered and needs to be nerfed. We all can agree. the issue is most of you don’t want it to remain competetive like Guardians, Thieves, Necromancers, and Engineers. You want it evisceerated so no one would ever play the class again.

Slight tweaks is all that’s required for the Warrior because it’s really no better or worse than half of the classes in the game. The few ‘real’ problems the class actually has aren’t even directly related to healing signet and trying to nerf healing signet first instead of at least acknowledging the real problems with the class will end up with Warriors being worthless in this game once again.

If I run double Guardian, I know my team will suffer from a lack of damage output.
If I run double Thief, I know my team will be very squishy and easily burst down.
If I run double Necromancer, I know my team will be very susceptible to CC and focus fire.

If I run double warrior, I know I will probably win.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Healing Signet is really over the top by somewhere between 15-20%. Conservatively, say 15%.

Even if you change HS, the other problem you are left with is that warriors still don’t have any particular weaknesses. When you look at other classes, they all possess weaknesses that make class-stacking on a team undesirable. Thieves cannot hold a point, mesmers are too squishy and susceptible to conditions, necromancers are easily trained down, guardians and spirit rangers don’t do enough damage, etc. Warriors have high stability uptime, lots of condi clears, high armor, blocks, Endure Pain, can deal out good damage as well as incredibly high (70%+) uptime for AoE fire fields entirely covering almost any node.

A while back Chap said that if they saw the meta shifting to carrying 2x of a profession, it was a sign the class was OP (i.e. back when we saw 2xele teams).

Closer to 25-50% overpowered.

The Mesmer nearest equivalent heals 900 every 3 seconds if you have 3 illusions out. So, the best care scenario for Mesmer is 30% less effective than a Warriors worst case scenario.

Marcos.3690:

Eiland.1405:

Ill start by saying I don’t really care if they’ll nerf it or not and really don’t want to open a new discussion about it. Just wanted to present a few fact so that people will get over this issue already.

Here is list comparing a few heal skills, facts only:

Warrior ‘Healing signet’
Heal: 392hp evrey sec
CD: 0
hps: 392
% base health: 1/47
full health after: 47sec
Other effects: none

Engineer ‘healing turret’
Heal: deploy + cleansing burst + blow = 6360hp + 1040hp (8sec regen)
CD: 20sec
hps: 370hps
% base health: 50
full health after: 40sec
Other effects: 2 condi cleanse, almost half of it is aoe. (also scales great with healing power)

Thief ‘Withdraw’
Heal: 4344hp
CD: 15sec
hps: 290
% base health: 40
full health after: 37.5sec
Other effects: 0.75 evade, clear immobilize, cripple and chill, gap closer/creator.

Mesmer ‘Ether feast’
Heal: with 3 clones = 7480
CD: 20sec
hps: 374
% base health: 50
Full health after: 40sec
Other effects: none

Of course HS is a bit different coz you don’t need to activate it, so u can’t get interpreted but you can’t take advantage of ‘on heal’ effect many rune set have , and very suspectable to burst, so let call it even.
So in this comparison we get HS has a small lead in hps, no special affects and actually the worst heal to base health percentage by 7sec. Personally, I would take any of these other 3 skills instead of HS on my warrior.

GL HF kitten

lol wat

warrior has the biggest HP pool

probably didn’t mention it because other classes can spam evade and blocks far more than warrior can.

Mesmer staff can teleport every six secs. And stealth, and hide behind clones. Plus they get free invulnerability and daze.
Thieves can stealth, teleport, and evade like no tommorow.
Guardian can fart boons, invulnerability, block, dodge and blind.

Each of those can stop a 18k damage attack from reaching your HP.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Healing Signet is really over the top by somewhere between 15-20%. Conservatively, say 15%.

Even if you change HS, the other problem you are left with is that warriors still don’t have any particular weaknesses. When you look at other classes, they all possess weaknesses that make class-stacking on a team undesirable. Thieves cannot hold a point, mesmers are too squishy and susceptible to conditions, necromancers are easily trained down, guardians and spirit rangers don’t do enough damage, etc. Warriors have high stability uptime, lots of condi clears, high armor, blocks, Endure Pain, can deal out good damage as well as incredibly high (70%+) uptime for AoE fire fields entirely covering almost any node.

A while back Chap said that if they saw the meta shifting to carrying 2x of a profession, it was a sign the class was OP (i.e. back when we saw 2xele teams).

kitten son. The warrior you described There must have 4 arms and 9 utilities.
Thieves can easly hold points with stealth
Mesmers are squishy due to clones with on thier own can protect the mesmer from damage.(by confusing your target
Necros with there current kinion builds eat spvp alive
Gaurdians have insane sustainability My zerker gaurd out live even some bunker build
Spirit rangers dps my not be in the zerker range it is by no means weak.

Kiriakulos.1690:

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

You have not considered that the difference between heavy and light armor is 40 toughness. A laughable difference at best. You have also not considered the 10K buffer of life force in death shroud. That is why 300hps on necro feels right, and 390 on warrior feels right. I am glad we have had this difference pointed out and not swept under the rug.

How much damage does endure pain and berserker stance block?
While the Warrior is STILL being healed, something that DeathShroud doesn’t allow.

If you had the mobility of a Necro it could easily be much more than 10k, especially if you are outnumbered.

Healing signet does NOT feel right, that’s the whole point of the thread, it has no counters and works without ANY regard to environment ( enemies, combat, cooldowns, etc…).

Good question. I don’t use berserkers or have endure pain on demand. So I can’t tell you. Yeah..guess what, there is plenty of warrior’s who don’t use those skills. I can tell you though that I hit a necro with full whirling axe for 11.5k+evis for 7.1+ final thrust for 4.8k in a 8 second window and that only removed their death shroud. So please don’t talk about what is OP mitigation and what is not. Especially not on a necro. Healing signet can be interrupt as well, the person just has to use it, which no one does. You can’t interrupt any skill that sits idle and doesn’t get used. As a dev has said, using it is a big mistake..that is why it can’t be interrupted..because it is never activiated in the first place.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Right now warriors dominate, absolutely dominate, tPvP, WvW and PVE/dungeons.

Guild Warriors 2

Why? Because they have high damage, high sustain, high mobility, high armor, great condition removal and lots of AoE, and they are incredibly easy to play.

If you were a developer on the balance team, how could you possibly stand up and be proud of your work?

It’s a farce.

You’ve highlight just how little you actually know about warrior. Please take your grudge match that you got spanked by one and get over it. They are easy to play if your some sort of candy warrior that skips on the edges of the battle, rather than being directly in it. Their condition removal is dependent on investing 20 into a tree..what if you dont wanna invest in that tree?..you have shake it off for 1 removal. Also stop with the high armor bullocks, the difference between light and heavy armor is in total 100ish toughness, which is laughable. 2300 toughness or 2400..there is no difference, so please stop acting like this major. Only investment in toughness in traits/runes/skill trees matters. Base armor means squat.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

Good question. I don’t use berserkers or have endure pain on demand. So I can’t tell you. Yeah..guess what, there is plenty of warrior’s who don’t use those skills. I can tell you though that I hit a necro with full whirling axe for 11.5k+evis for 7.1+ final thrust for 4.8k in a 8 second window and that only removed their death shroud. So please don’t talk about what is OP mitigation and what is not. Especially not on a necro. Healing signet can be interrupt as well, the person just has to use it, which no one does. You can’t interrupt any skill that sits idle and doesn’t get used. As a dev has said, using it is a big mistake..that is why it can’t be interrupted..because it is never activiated in the first place.

Why do you keep posting about how attacking a Necro in DS negates your damage as if that was incredibly powerful? It’s his only defense and it’s REALLY easy to see when the Necro is in DS. Your argument pretty much boils down to you wanting to always deal damage when you hit the opponent. If there even is an argument behind you saying how much of an awful player you seem to be. You know rotations pretty well apparently, but end up making terrible decisions.

Necros have the worst damage mitigation in the game, so if any profession CAN talk about what is OP mitigation, it’s the Necro. Our only source of mitigation is tied to the hardest resource to gather in the game. Our only source of mitigation needs to be triggered and enter a cooldown so we can access an integral part of our spike damage.
Our only source of damage mitigation can actually be canceled by taking enough damage, I don’t believe ANY other damage mitigation in the game behaves this way.

You say that healing signet can be interrupted, except it can’t, as I said. Are you agreeing with me in a really passive aggressive manner? Are you disagreeing with me by repeating what I said? I don’t get you.

Atherakhia.4086:

JorneMormel.9850:

Words… lots of them.

I agree with you that a Warrior when specing for tanking doesn’t lose enough damage. On the flip side, when a Warrior actually does spec for doing damage they simply lose too much defense to remain viable. So something needs to be done about this.

What I have a problem with is the remainder of your point. Most would agree that the Warrior is currently over the top, but most can’t agree by how much. I think the easiest way to figure this out is ask yourself if you feel the Warrior is standing above the other classes. And try to be honest with this unlike earlier posts that claim the Warrior > * in every mode, forever.

Sure, when compared against a Ranger the Warrior is horrendously overpowered. Nearly every class is.

But when compared to Guardians, Necromancers, Thieves, or Engineers, are Warriors still seen as some unstoppable juggernaut? Or would you say they’re fairly well balanced when you look at these sets of classes?

That’s the problem I have with the overwhelming majority of posts in this thread. They don’t look at this problem objectively. The problem is the Warrior is overpowered and needs to be nerfed. We all can agree. the issue is most of you don’t want it to remain competetive like Guardians, Thieves, Necromancers, and Engineers. You want it evisceerated so no one would ever play the class again.

Slight tweaks is all that’s required for the Warrior because it’s really no better or worse than half of the classes in the game. The few ‘real’ problems the class actually has aren’t even directly related to healing signet and trying to nerf healing signet first instead of at least acknowledging the real problems with the class will end up with Warriors being worthless in this game once again.

I will be very fair about this. My main character is a Ranger and I am very knowledgeable about that profession. I can not say the same about the Warrior, however I do visit and play with some friends from time to time who have just about every profession maxed. Occasionally I do play Warrior in that manner, but that does not give me the insight to criticize the profession.

Since I am not in a situation where I can provide the needed feedback, I will not come up with numeric changes. (Like x% tweak would “fix” it. Most of these suggestions are made up on the spot anyway.)

About a year ago, when I saw a lone Warrior in WvW I thought to myself “Ooh… A snack!” I have no desire at all to see the Warrior back in that state because even if I did outplay him, he also got help from another Ranger. I still managed to kill the Warrior easily and tied with the Ranger (neither could kill one another.) Looking back I do think the Warrior has been improved very well.

The manner in which they counter the current “meta” is somewhat obnoxious, though. Allow me to explain, Healing Signet for example, is one of those passive skills where even the developers say “No no no! Don’t use that!”. Adrenal Health adds to that and frankly, with access to Dogged March and Cleansing Ire the gain from a mere 20 trait points is just too much, in my opinion.

I would have less of a problem with it if those traits required active player input to work, but they do not. The Warrior counters conditions by passive play (read: build wars) which is not fun to play against because there are no counters to these passive effects. Healing Signet is a nice example because if it were to be put into a state where you could force the Warrior to use its’ active effect, it would not be as much of a problem.

The way the Warrior counters conditions is actually pretty active when you look at what’s available to other classes. Take your Ranger for example…

The 2 main ways to remove conditions as a Ranger are Empathic Bond which is a passive condi removal while your pet is alive. The other is Healing Spring, also a passive (semi active?) condi removal while you stand in your spring.

Guardian is much the same. They have a trait to remove 1 condition every second. They have a signet to remove 1 condition every second.

Now compare this to the Warrior which actively needs to use burst skills to cleanse conditions. If it were as passive as you claim, the HamBow spec likely wouldn’t have been born as a lot of people run Longbow simply because it always uses adrenaline (plus the burst skill is the size of a point).

Now I do agree with you, there’s simply too much in those 20 points of Defense for a Warrior which makes those traits mandatory for every Warrior build. On top of this, the Warrior gains Merciless Hammer in the same tree which improves their damage in a defense treee.

If it were up to me, I’d move Adrenal Health so that a Warrior could still have some reasonable amount of longevity when specing for damage. Especially if the end result for Warrior is we need to shave more than 8% from their passive healing.

The game as a whole would probably gain much more while the Warrior loses much less by simply encouraging them to move out of the 0/0/30/30/10 (or 25/30/15, 30/10/30, etc) builds. Especially if you buy into my theory that Warriors really aren’t that much better than half the classes in the game currently.

alamore.1974:

Thedenofsin.7340:

Healing Signet is really over the top by somewhere between 15-20%. Conservatively, say 15%.

Even if you change HS, the other problem you are left with is that warriors still don’t have any particular weaknesses. When you look at other classes, they all possess weaknesses that make class-stacking on a team undesirable. Thieves cannot hold a point, mesmers are too squishy and susceptible to conditions, necromancers are easily trained down, guardians and spirit rangers don’t do enough damage, etc. Warriors have high stability uptime, lots of condi clears, high armor, blocks, Endure Pain, can deal out good damage as well as incredibly high (70%+) uptime for AoE fire fields entirely covering almost any node.

A while back Chap said that if they saw the meta shifting to carrying 2x of a profession, it was a sign the class was OP (i.e. back when we saw 2xele teams).

kitten son. The warrior you described There must have 4 arms and 9 utilities.
Thieves can easly hold points with stealth
Mesmers are squishy due to clones with on thier own can protect the mesmer from damage.(by confusing your target
Necros with there current kinion builds eat spvp alive
Gaurdians have insane sustainability My zerker gaurd out live even some bunker build
Spirit rangers dps my not be in the zerker range it is by no means weak.

Not really, the warrior I describe can achieve all of those with longbow,shield, Endure Pain, Balanced Stance, Beserker Stance and Cleansing Ire. It’s a pretty typical configuration.

As far as your points about the other classes are concerned, they are all right, but do nothing to invalidate my statements about them. There is a reason why double warrior teams are viable, yet double “X” teams aren’t. That reason is that warriors are in a state where they bring no weaknesses to the table that are compounded, unlike other classes. Look at the previous condition meta where Necromancer was the undisputed top profession. Yet, you never saw double necro teams. This was because the Necromancer needed protection and peeling to be viable. Double necro teams were too easily countered.

Warriors are not, and that is a problem.

Atherakhia.4086:

The way the Warrior counters conditions is actually pretty active when you look at what’s available to other classes. Take your Ranger for example…

The 2 main ways to remove conditions as a Ranger are Empathic Bond which is a passive condi removal while your pet is alive. The other is Healing Spring, also a passive (semi active?) condi removal while you stand in your spring.

I would be the last person to argue that Empathetic Bond is in a good place right now. The reason most Rangers trait 30 points just for this is because there is no decent alternative for condition removal. With the bug-fix, killing the pet is actually a good counter strategy for condition damage specs. As is counting down the condition removal (it has a 10 second interval.)
As for Healing Spring, to get the most out of it you need to be very aware of the situation and where you can place it. Push-backs and the like are actually a counter to that as well. Not to say the condition removal from Healing Spring is good either, I personally dislike these effects being out of the player’s control.

By the passive condition removal on the Warrior I mean that the traits to remove them either reduce the duration or trigger when the Warrior uses (not hits, I think… Please correct me if I am wrong) a burst skill. I do not know of a way to counter the Warrior’s adrenaline flow, because even if I were to evade every hit, which is not feasible, Cleansing Ire also makes the Warrior gain adrenaline when hit.

JorneMormel.9850:

Atherakhia.4086:

The way the Warrior counters conditions is actually pretty active when you look at what’s available to other classes. Take your Ranger for example…

The 2 main ways to remove conditions as a Ranger are Empathic Bond which is a passive condi removal while your pet is alive. The other is Healing Spring, also a passive (semi active?) condi removal while you stand in your spring.

I would be the last person to argue that Empathetic Bond is in a good place right now. The reason most Rangers trait 30 points just for this is because there is no decent alternative for condition removal. With the bug-fix, killing the pet is actually a good counter strategy for condition damage specs. As is counting down the condition removal (it has a 10 second interval.)
As for Healing Spring, to get the most out of it you need to be very aware of the situation and where you can place it. Push-backs and the like are actually a counter to that as well. Not to say the condition removal from Healing Spring is good either, I personally dislike these effects being out of the player’s control.

By the passive condition removal on the Warrior I mean that the traits to remove them either reduce the duration or trigger when the Warrior uses (not hits, I think… Please correct me if I am wrong) a burst skill. I do not know of a way to counter the Warrior’s adrenaline flow, because even if I were to evade every hit, which is not feasible, Cleansing Ire also makes the Warrior gain adrenaline when hit.

Oh I wasn’t trying to say Ranger condi removal was good or the class itself was great. I main a Ranger actually and it’s awful all around.

But keep in mind that the only trait that reduces condi duration for a Warrior is dogged march, and this is only for movement impairing conditions (and several other classes have similar traits). Aside from this is mobile strikes which removes immobilize with a movement skill.

But yes, condition cleansing triggers when you use a burst skill via Cleansing Ire. But this doesn’t mean a Warrior can just go around spamming blasts every time they’re off cooldown (except in a zerg where almost all condi cleanse is left up to guardians anyway). If you look at high level Warriors or dueling/roaming Warriors you’ll see they conserve their burst skills to cleanse conditions and aren’t just spamming it every 8 seconds. And as you mentioned, there’s no way to stop a Warrior’s adrenaline flow. It’s their class mechanic and it’s built up easy (and conserved very well which is why most look at 0/0/30/10/30 build).

Atherakhia.4086:

JorneMormel.9850:

Words… words… words…

Oh I wasn’t trying to say Ranger condi removal was good or the class itself was great. I main a Ranger actually and it’s awful all around.

But keep in mind that the only trait that reduces condi duration for a Warrior is dogged march, and this is only for movement impairing conditions (and several other classes have similar traits). Aside from this is mobile strikes which removes immobilize with a movement skill.

But yes, condition cleansing triggers when you use a burst skill via Cleansing Ire. But this doesn’t mean a Warrior can just go around spamming blasts every time they’re off cooldown (except in a zerg where almost all condi cleanse is left up to guardians anyway). If you look at high level Warriors or dueling/roaming Warriors you’ll see they conserve their burst skills to cleanse conditions and aren’t just spamming it every 8 seconds. And as you mentioned, there’s no way to stop a Warrior’s adrenaline flow. It’s their class mechanic and it’s built up easy (and conserved very well which is why most look at 0/0/30/10/30 build).

Which is why I do not oppose Cleansing Ire. In the right hands it is incredibly strong. Though for the trait investment it might be a little too much, if it were toned down condition builds would be in an even better place. This is one of those traits that would have to be handled very carefully…

…Which is why this discussion is not about Cleansing Ire, or how Dogged March creates issues with Melandru runes and consumables. It is in fact about the most passive of the Warrior’s defenses, so let us continue the conversation about Healing Signet before we get carried away.

The reason I am saying this is that while the other issues are with the Warrior profession as a whole (Cleansing Ire without the benefits of the rest of the Defense line traits would arguably be just fine.) Healing Signet, however, requires no investment and does not promote skillful play because there is no reason to ever activate it. (Timing the activation right requires insight and skill…)

I would personally have no problems with Healing Signet becoming the go-to skill to pick when building a bunker build (with healing power) due to better scaling, if that were to be improved. Though the people who play a Warrior as their main would have to fill me in on that. It is not the only decent healing skill the Warrior has but it currently overshadows every other healing skill because there is zero investment required for it to work.

Not everything in this game can promote skillful play or be active instead of passive. Sometimes things just have to work or fill a gap missing in a class. Healing Signet is ANet’s solution to having a very poor option for classes that are supposed to mitigate damage instead of avoid it.

I’m not trying to say Healing Signet is weak, it’s very clearly the strongest heal in the game. However, I’m not convinced it’s really the problem with the class. Afterall, a Warrior that doesn’t run Cleansing Ire, Adrenal Health, Endure Pain, Berserker Stance, and stability at a minimum tends not to be much of a threat. Have you ever met a Warrior that didn’t run every single one of these things? Because I surely haven’t… not in a long time.

I’m also not a fan of the healing power approach either. Why should the Warrior’s heal be the only heal to require healing power to such a degree? If you wanted to make this a blanket change to all healing skills I’d be fine with that.

If it were up to me I’d move Adrenal Health to the Strength tree. This has your net result of nerfing passive regen by a pretty sizable amount or forcing Warriors to give up some of their defensive options elsewhere.

Alternatively you engineer some kind of deficiency with the class and make healing signet’s activated portion fill that void thus encouraging the class to use the signet.

For example (and one I thought of on the fly so forgive me if you don’t feel it’s well thought out)… change berserker stance. It now grants stability (not sure the Warrior needs more, but meh) and increases damage by 25% for 8 seconds. You then make the activated part of healing signet make you immune to conditions for as long as you have adrenaline. Drains 3 adrenaline a second or so (full gives 8-10 seconds of immunity).

Just an example…

Harper.4173:

But you see my friend the people in this thread have not asked for and I doubt they’d care about buffs for other professions. They just want warriors to be ruined so they can feel satisfied.

There are very intelligent reasons for requesting a nerf to the over powered versus asking for a buff to everything else.

No one wants to see warriors ruined. Although I admit some are foolishly over reaching in some of their nerf request. As well, some others are being intentionally obtuse when it comes to admitting when their preferred profession is overpowered in certain areas such as the combination of healing signet with such high armor/toughness rating with such a high health pool availability, with great damage, with a lot of CC combined with such easy access to cleansing of conditions and other traits that negate or minimize many conditions..

To better understand, Lets look at a Jonothan Sharp quote

“When designing and balancing the classes, we try to make sure that class roles and identities stay intact. So, in doing so, we make sure that there are rules and boundaries outlining the capabilities and weaknesses of each class.

Warrior
We want the Warrior to be capable of good melee damage in a sturdy body. They can still do some decent damage at range, but they aren’t as good at it as the Ranger (with their pet). They have a hard time taking enemy boons down, and instead, have to just go through them with raw force. They may have a hard time with enemy conditions, and may need to ask for ally help in order to keep themselves free of hampering conditions."

It is a reasonable complaint when you see such regeneration on the heavy armor profession, with the highest health pool still having such abilities in mobility and cleansing power and the ability to negate many conditions.

Personally I feel the solution here is to decrease the regenerating healing of the signet by 50% while increasing the actual burst heal by 50%. This alleviates such effortless regeneration of health that negates a need to actually heal yourself, while at the same time allowing the signet to be a viable heal.

How did you make a connection between the class being weak against conditions to them needing to nerf healing signet? Why would this be your first thought instead of looking at Berserker Stance or Cleansing Ire?

How is the Warrior supposed to be a sturdy front line class when they aren’t given tools to mitigate damage?

The HPS isn’t there to counter conditions. It’s there because the class doesn’t have protection to help it face tank damage and remain a viable melee class.

Atherakhia.4086:

How did you make a connection between the class being weak against conditions to them needing to nerf healing signet? Why would this be your first thought instead of looking at Berserker Stance or Cleansing Ire?

I never mentioned either berserker stance or cleansing ire. Which just goes to show it stands out to you as strong skills that counter the balance philosophies of the profession.

The warrior forums complained enough to get something that contradicts the balancing philosophy enacted. There for something else has to give. Given the current regenerative capability this signet adds, I feel it is a prime candidate for that something that has to give.

How is the Warrior supposed to be a sturdy front line class when they aren’t given tools to mitigate damage?

If you desire to learn about the capabilities of warriors, please, feel free to go to their sub-forum for educating discussion. This is not the place for us to have to educate you on there abilities. Although it does strike me as odd that you feel knowledgeable enough to have an opinion for a professions balance when your not familiar enough with its skills of mitigation, that you need to ask for others to list them.

Atherakhia.4086:

The HPS isn’t there to counter conditions. It’s there because the class doesn’t have protection to help it face tank damage and remain a viable melee class.

And you have a source to back up your claim? Or are you trying to convince us that your conjecture is fact in some way? Either way, your conjecture contradicts the balancing philosophy as I see it.

Why would it need protection to “face tank” as you put it. You have 35% more health then a guardian. Guardians then have a justification for needing to negate damage. A more logical conjecture would be that warriors are intended to absorb said damage.

I play warrior, I agree healing signet is a little overpowered clearly. I play an attrition build with quick breathing, shout heals, runes making shouts cure conditions. Why do I play this build? I play this way because many patches ago another condition was added to the game post launch, i.e. torment. I have been in discussions with many people in my guild saying that the addition of this condition was and still is game breaking. The mechanics of how the condition works and what damage it does is not the game breaking part. The game breaking part is the very existence of this condition. This existence has made conditions the meta for quite some time. Torment is a condition, to bring balance to the game and change your overall meta. You, Anet, need to think hard about adding a little more condition cleansing/conversion to the game. Does every class need this “little more” no but a couple of classes do need help in this area. Off the top of my head ranger is one.

Your recent updates to healing skills would have been awesome if burst style gameplay was the meta across the board, but sadly conditions still rule the day.

I’ve come to the conclusion that arena-net just doesn’t give a kitten anymore. There isn’t any excuse. Something should have been done over a month ago. Instead we have red posts talking about buffing the active on healing signet before nerfing the passive. There are so many reasons why heal sig is the best heal in the game by far and there’s talk of a buff before a nerf can happen?

Guys, your game is dying. Players are quitting left and right. People are kittening sick of this and you need to get it through your head that we’ve been dealing with healing signet and it’s meta-destroying effects for months. Further inactivity only makes us lose more faith in this game.

I’m at my wits end

Ostricheggs.3742:

I’ve come to the conclusion that arena-net just doesn’t give a kitten anymore. There isn’t any excuse. Something should have been done over a month ago. Instead we have red posts talking about buffing the active on healing signet before nerfing the passive. There are so many reasons why heal sig is the best heal in the game by far and there’s talk of a buff before a nerf can happen?

Guys, your game is dying. Players are quitting left and right. People are kittening sick of this and you need to get it through your head that we’ve been dealing with healing signet and it’s meta-destroying effects for months. Further inactivity only makes us lose more faith in this game.

I’m at my wits end

No. whats happening is people got used to warrior being a giant pinata that they nuked from 1200-1500 range or loaded up with conditions to get a player kill and win easy matches. Now you have to DRUM ROLL PLEASE!!! – PLAY AND USE ALL OF YOUR SKILLS AND UTILITIES TO WIN AGAINST SOME ONE!!!