Guild Wars 2

jcbroe.4329:

Flytrap.8075:

Yet another reminder that ANet teased “amazing changes” for Ranger a few months ago yet said amazingness is still MIA.

Keep in mind that ANet only performs balance changes every 3-4 months, and we’re actually right on schedule since the last balance was December 10th. Not justifying the speed that balance rolls out or anything.

Meaning that, because this thread was started a few months back, in between those dates, the reality is that between this thread and the CDI, the earliest we would see any progress coming from either thread would be around July or August even, at the earliest.

Keep in mind that ANet’s last balance update was in November because they wanted to focus on the Living Story and did not want to distract or confuse players.

Chrispy.5641:

Jocksy.3415:

Pet got scaled up in PvE, which makes them almost no-brainer in most content, but still don’t save them from one-shot mechanisms, and if we have the trait, they gain protection at the beginning of our dodge-roll, which still makes them long-standing in most content (where I didn’t have problem keeping them alive to begin with), but still don’t make a meaningful difference for the encounters where I couldn’t keep it alive…

Your point is? All pets, minions, etc. got an Hp buff in PvE only content. WvW is not PvE. Buffing pet health by 70% there would not solve a single problem, especially in smaller group/solo fights.

Also, your pet has 2061 toughness, about as much armor as you would have in a full zerker set up, however, if you ever bother to take the effort to use beastmastery (and master’s bond), that same pet would have 2,561 toughness. Its also not that hard to give it perma protection, making it extremely hard to kill.

Its actually not that hard for me to build up a pet and have even cats and birds standing up to those fabled 1 shot boss mechanics. Your pet IS GOING TO DIE if you don’t bother to invest in it though, which is mostly the point.

NEXT!

I love how you totally ignore the first part of the massage : “I did try to micro-manage pets in WvW zergs (shouts/BM build, with the infamous bears that should be able to hold with defy pain and other mechanism). In open fights, it was not too bad, but in any towers/keep fights, there was nothing to be done.
I know some people state they have no difficulty keeping their pet in WvW zergs, but I never saw a video of it. Most just use their pet special ability and wait the 60 seconds penalty to call the new pet if they need it…”

Bring forward all stats you want, the mere fact the pet is not dodging and is stupidly staying in AOE, even when I spam F3 while out of them makes it not survivable…
Still waiting on a video of the wonderful build and gameplay that keeps pet alive in all content/gameplay? Noone that states pet is good will send me one… maybe because thay can’t?

So, “my point is” that in content where the pet can’t be kept alife, we should get something out of their death. If someone would kill my pet I’d be pretty angry, and it sounds logical that ranger might get in a furious state when their pet is down for the downtime duration.

In other posts, I also stated that it would be nice for pet’s health/toughness to scale to foes around (like mobs scale in PvE), so that it has a chance in zergs, without being overpowered in other content.

If ranger’s damage was not reliant on the pet, I’d have not much problems with it dying too easily. But since our base damage is lowered because of the pet, since our ascended and our food only affect 70 % of what we can bring, since pet take none of it… I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want something that can be used in all settings.

Side note:
Vitality raised in PvP WvW would, imho, make the pet too strong. I’m not much of a PvP player, but unless the pet is focussed, it does hardly die withing 20 seconds… And if the pet is focussed, it should die.

jcbroe.4329:

Rangers aren’t the only class that has to trait to make their mechanic useful.

Thieves get a pretty much useless item on steal for about half of the profession that does no damage without traiting. Arguably, thieves require 40 trait points (10/x/x/x/30) to make steal even remotely worthwhile.

Warriors with no burst mastery are barely ever going to be able to use their mechanic, and because Warriors best cleansing comes in the form of cleansing Ire, every single viable Warrior build at top level competitive play runs (x/x/20/x/30) at the bare minimum.

Also, engineers toolbelt mechanic is fairly lacking on most of the options you gain from the slot skills, traited or not. Traited creates 1 build, static discharge, but even then, 50%+ of engineer toolbelt skills really aren’t all that “meaningful.”

So yes, ANet built certain classes in the game with the intent that you have to invest trait points into the mechanic to actually make that mechanic useful in combat.

Thiefs and warriors are not loosing anything much if they have no access to their class mechanics. And there is no way for anyone to stop them from using it for 60 seconds, wether or not they specced for it… Not really the best examples…

Necro? Well, they do have to use DS for damage and survival, but it is working all right without traits, traits just makes it more useful.

(Not gonna talk of gardians – never been able to wrap my head around their gameplay…)

Engineers and elems and mesmers do have to use either their class mechanic or their class focus (class mecanic = F1-F4, class focus=what makes it different).
Engineer can play without F1-F4 without loosing much (as you stated, it’s not meaningful), but a non-kit engineer looses much.
Elems gain lots of class-related abilities from traits. Arguably, traits makes them better, not merely functionnal.
Mesmer – Can hardly forego it’s mechanic; with an offensive build, they need to use their class mecanic and focus for defense, while with a defensive build, they need it to deal effective damage. They also have the same problems as we do relating to AI reliant damage and pathing issues. BUT they have the possibility, either through weapons or traits, to generate their class focus fast. Which makes up for the fact that their mechanic rely on AI.

We have nothing to make up for the fact that we have to rely on our pet.
as someone put it, “we start at a disadvantage” and shouldn’t have to trait in order to hope to not lose our profession mecanic.

@Durzlla

Yeah, they split the aggro. But, it’s not like WoW Hunter’s where an aggro split was both directly controllable and more genuinely meaningful in context.

Yes, it’s two separate sources of DPS. But you rarely get to do much pet micromanagement while disabled, because you’re not often disabled in PvE and in PvP your disabled timeframe doesn’t always align with the pet’s spotty windows of opportunity on a moving target. (Though, I will acknowledge there’s a bit of ‘wait and see’ on this with the patch).

Indeed, a pet can Body Block. But, all your ways to manage your pet’s position on the field lacks precision or availability, so it’s not like I can actually construct meaningful gameplay around the feature.

These things feel more like technicalities that may occasionally be a benefit as pure happenstance, than a sincere superpower I can leverage tactically and willfully. There just isn’t enough of a structural underpinning or intentional control systems in place to really elevate this stuff to gameplay.

Jocksy.3415:

I love how you totally ignore the first part of the massage : “I did try to micro-manage pets in WvW zergs (shouts/BM build, with the infamous bears that should be able to hold with defy pain and other mechanism). In open fights, it was not too bad, but in any towers/keep fights, there was nothing to be done.
I know some people state they have no difficulty keeping their pet in WvW zergs, but I never saw a video of it. Most just use their pet special ability and wait the 60 seconds penalty to call the new pet if they need it…”

Bring forward all stats you want, the mere fact the pet is not dodging and is stupidly staying in AOE, even when I spam F3 while out of them makes it not survivable…
Still waiting on a video of the wonderful build and gameplay that keeps pet alive in all content/gameplay? Noone that states pet is good will send me one… maybe because thay can’t?

You don’t deserve a video, but I will post one of my most powerful builds in WvW, and since it uses all Zerker gear (some assassin), you probably have most of the gear and can test it for yourself if you want :::

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vMAQJARTnMqQvgWyC2CCXLIIWKA0+bFoETxhS0TB6V/FT9xD-zUyAYfEMXgoIIUmAl8KiGbRtIas6aMVJRUt3gIqmUAsLMC-w

Highlights :::

• No 30 points invested for shouts or signets to ‘make them useful’. (I will sometimes not bother with Wilderness survival for a full 30 points in beastmastery though)
• Constant stream of Might, for both you, and your pet. (use sword/warhorn instead of greatsword for even more might on pet. you just lost alot of defense though.)
• A fully buffed Drake (30 beastmastery and 25 masters bond) will have 2218 power, 1874 precision, 2561 toughness, and 3,935 vitality (about 25000 health)
• With Spotter, the Drake will have 2024 precision.
• Using the Longbow, you can use barrage to preload 25 might on your pet immediately, without using Rampage as one. You can use that to make the might last longer than 5 seconds, and give the drake fury.
• A Well timed Lightning breath attack will do 2000 damage on each strike, and will also apply bleeding because of the rending attacks trait, which will deal an additional 87 damage per second if you stacked might on the pet beforehand. Doesn’t sound like alot, until that lightning breath bounces around, and will apply a large amount of extra damage in a group. (PROTIP – Use on a downed enemy to make using it easier, and so it hits everything around it!)
• If you want to have even more fun, switch out quickening zephyr for Signet of the hunt. time the drake’s Tail swipe attack with the signet. BAM! 3K+ damage, 6K+ if it crits, plus its an AoE. That’s also with no might added on. With 25 stacks of Might (which is easy to get with either Rampage as One or Barrage), the drake will have nearly 3000 power, which will make its Tail swipe attack deal 9K damage on a critical hit. (follow up with Maul or Rapid Fire to finish off the warriors. its not that hard)
• Protect me for stun break and your own survival, Guard for extra pet survival. Guard will keep the pet from dying in small encounters. In zergs, you are still on your own!
• If you use the Lynx instead for focus on a single target, fully buffed, It will outdamage you as soon as you stack might on it, and you yourself are still dealing a respectable 3K dps or so. Total sustained dps is 6-8k. There is no 70-30 split here.
• Best part? I created this build Today, in about 20 minutes. And it works just fine, even without ‘useful’ utility skills because I didn’t invest 30 points. It also works just fine in zergs, and works just fine in smaller groups. It doesn’t work so well solo, because you, the ranger will be targeted first, and will die a quick death, due to lack of utility skills.
• Your pet will stay alive if you watch its health. You also need to not be greedy with your heal. Pop it when you see your pet’s health get low, or it will die!. Put it on passive if its health gets low, or it will die!. Don’t let it get lost in a Zerg, because pets, like every other AI creature in the game, as well as like many players….will die!, the moment the zerg hits. Dodges and protection isn’t going to save it. Stop asking for a build that makes pets immortal.

What is so hard about this? About making a Ranger build that works in WvW (it also works quite well in general PvE, and it might be my new dungeon build, I like it so much).

The thing about the Ranger is, is that you are playing 2 seperate characters. You can’t only build yourself up, and expect the pet to work if you ignore it. At the same time, you can’t build only the pet up, and ignore yourself (I did this for awhile with Magi gear…..which can make pets nearly immortal, but it leaves you weak and helpless) The two are linked, and will never be seperated. A basic knowledge of Micromanagment IS REQUIRED to play Ranger!

Chrispy.5641:

snip

I ask for pet survival possibility in all content; you show me a sub-par, imho non-optimal in any content build.

You might find it’s all right to not be able to take part in all content with any profession, I don’t.
I believe all professions should be able to take part in any and all part of the game, given they build for it…

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree here…

(And, btw, it’s not because someone didn’t post much on the forum that they don’t have an opinion… build mine in-game way before I came on the officilal forum, and spend some time reading it before I started writing in it… Resorting to the “short post history” argument is, imho, a proof you don’t have one true argument to make)

It’s very apparent who the god awful rangers are when they’re shown a very solid build that has a metric kitten ton of survivability (for both the ranger and the pet) and damage yet they think it’s a kitten build…

If you won’t accept our help, there is no helping you, please just leave so we can get back to a real discussion.

And as Chrispy said there are a few working power builds out there, most of them don’t go very far into Skirmishing, and when they do it’s to boost the pet because that’s generally more useful than a few % more DPS for the ranger itself. Buff the pet, and you’ll do as much DPS as thieves and warriors (given the right pet)

EDIT: fixed for clarity.

You’re overselling a bit much there Durzlla.

@Crispy
I would alter the build slightly towards something along this line;
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vMAQJARTnMqQvg2KI2CCXLIIWKA0+ZKOUieKQv6dF8/FT9xD-zUyAYfEMXgoIIUmAl8KiGbltIas6aM9KRUt7gIqmUAsrrC-w

You see i changed around some of the trinkets, but perhaps most notably, the 10 points in WS, over to nature magic. I also changed the runes, as Soldiers will give you more sustain, but also additional, on demand, condi cleanse (applies to allies too) whenever you use any of your shouts.
I also changed the Maintenance oil. With your low toughness and vitality, you actually get almost the same precision boost from either, however +10% condi duration is far more valuable then not having it.

Sic’em is great, as it gives your pet more DPS and speed. Not to mention, annoys thieves and since it is a shout – another condi cleanse for you.

Atherakhia.4086:

You’re overselling a bit much there Durzlla.

No I’m not, you guys just don’t understand how strong the build really is, I’ve run a very similar build and had amazing success with it, so have the ranger friends I shared it with who actually USED the build instead of shooting it down immediately without trying it.

Funny how spirit ranger builds were the EXACT WAY even after the buff that put them where they were pre 25s CD. But, you know, rangers like to just shoot down every build that’s not proven to be “meta” because clearly ranger suck rolls eyes.

I don’t care how strong the build is. The pet will never come close to a Warrior or Thief, lol.

Atherakhia.4086:

I don’t care how strong the build is. The pet will never come close to a Warrior or Thief, lol.

You’ve clearly never used a 25MB 30pt cat/drake/bird

Durzlla.6295:

Atherakhia.4086:

I don’t care how strong the build is. The pet will never come close to a Warrior or Thief, lol.

You’ve clearly never used a 25MB 30pt cat/drake/bird

You’ve clearly never played a Thief or Warrior.

Now it’s my turn…. rolls eyes

Atherakhia.4086:

Durzlla.6295:

Atherakhia.4086:

I don’t care how strong the build is. The pet will never come close to a Warrior or Thief, lol.

You’ve clearly never used a 25MB 30pt cat/drake/bird

You’ve clearly never played a Thief or Warrior.

Now it’s my turn…. rolls eyes

like i said before in ranger forums. the only way to see whos right is to go 1v1. been offering my self as tribute vs these forum warriors, let’s just all go 1v1 when we want to see who is right.

AEFA.9035:

Atherakhia.4086:

Durzlla.6295:

Atherakhia.4086:

I don’t care how strong the build is. The pet will never come close to a Warrior or Thief, lol.

You’ve clearly never used a 25MB 30pt cat/drake/bird

You’ve clearly never played a Thief or Warrior.

Now it’s my turn…. rolls eyes

like i said before in ranger forums. the only way to see whos right is to go 1v1. been offering my self as tribute vs these forum warriors, let’s just all go 1v1 when we want to see who is right.

I’d have to dust off my 1v1 build but I’m always up for a brawl lol.

AEFA.9035:

Atherakhia.4086:

Durzlla.6295:

Atherakhia.4086:

I don’t care how strong the build is. The pet will never come close to a Warrior or Thief, lol.

You’ve clearly never used a 25MB 30pt cat/drake/bird

You’ve clearly never played a Thief or Warrior.

Now it’s my turn…. rolls eyes

like i said before in ranger forums. the only way to see whos right is to go 1v1. been offering my self as tribute vs these forum warriors, let’s just all go 1v1 when we want to see who is right.

No one’s trying to prove one Ranger’s better than another. I don’t even mind the build Chrispy posted. It’s the commentary that the Ranger’s pet can replace an entire class that is outlandish. The implication that Chrispy’s build would be useful in anything but a duel. These are my issues with a lot of the comments in this thread and the CDI thread from last month or so.

Atherakhia.4086:

AEFA.9035:

Atherakhia.4086:

Durzlla.6295:

Atherakhia.4086:

I don’t care how strong the build is. The pet will never come close to a Warrior or Thief, lol.

You’ve clearly never used a 25MB 30pt cat/drake/bird

You’ve clearly never played a Thief or Warrior.

Now it’s my turn…. rolls eyes

like i said before in ranger forums. the only way to see whos right is to go 1v1. been offering my self as tribute vs these forum warriors, let’s just all go 1v1 when we want to see who is right.

No one’s trying to prove one Ranger’s better than another. I don’t even mind the build Chrispy posted. It’s the commentary that the Ranger’s pet can replace an entire class that is outlandish. The implication that Chrispy’s build would be useful in anything but a duel. These are my issues with a lot of the comments in this thread and the CDI thread from last month or so.

Ravens and cats hit kittening hard, have big frequent burst and are squishy, thus thief, drakes are very tanky and hard to kill and have cleave + big damage and some burst (not as much or as frequent as cat and bird) thus warrior.

That’s what I was getting at.

EDIT: I also kittened up the original post and was more trying to say that with the pet you’ll deal as much as/maybe even outshine the warrior, not the pet alone.

Durzlla.6295:

Atherakhia.4086:

AEFA.9035:

Atherakhia.4086:

Durzlla.6295:

Atherakhia.4086:

I don’t care how strong the build is. The pet will never come close to a Warrior or Thief, lol.

You’ve clearly never used a 25MB 30pt cat/drake/bird

You’ve clearly never played a Thief or Warrior.

Now it’s my turn…. rolls eyes

like i said before in ranger forums. the only way to see whos right is to go 1v1. been offering my self as tribute vs these forum warriors, let’s just all go 1v1 when we want to see who is right.

No one’s trying to prove one Ranger’s better than another. I don’t even mind the build Chrispy posted. It’s the commentary that the Ranger’s pet can replace an entire class that is outlandish. The implication that Chrispy’s build would be useful in anything but a duel. These are my issues with a lot of the comments in this thread and the CDI thread from last month or so.

Ravens and cats hit kittening hard, have big frequent burst and are squishy, thus thief, drakes are very tanky and hard to kill and have cleave + big damage and some burst (not as much or as frequent as cat and bird) thus warrior.

That’s what I was getting at.

EDIT: I also kittened up the original post and was more trying to say that with the pet you’ll deal as much as/maybe even outshine the warrior, not the pet alone.

depends on how you use birds and felines. i find that birds are more viable than felines in terms of auto attack. birds in general have bigger radius when it comes to auto attacking than any other melee pets. but they response slower than felines when it comes to F2 skills. felines are more superior when it comes to that, but auto attacking IMO birds are better.

Durzlla.6295:

Atherakhia.4086:

AEFA.9035:

Atherakhia.4086:

Durzlla.6295:

Atherakhia.4086:

I don’t care how strong the build is. The pet will never come close to a Warrior or Thief, lol.

You’ve clearly never used a 25MB 30pt cat/drake/bird

You’ve clearly never played a Thief or Warrior.

Now it’s my turn…. rolls eyes

like i said before in ranger forums. the only way to see whos right is to go 1v1. been offering my self as tribute vs these forum warriors, let’s just all go 1v1 when we want to see who is right.

No one’s trying to prove one Ranger’s better than another. I don’t even mind the build Chrispy posted. It’s the commentary that the Ranger’s pet can replace an entire class that is outlandish. The implication that Chrispy’s build would be useful in anything but a duel. These are my issues with a lot of the comments in this thread and the CDI thread from last month or so.

Ravens and cats hit kittening hard, have big frequent burst and are squishy, thus thief, drakes are very tanky and hard to kill and have cleave + big damage and some burst (not as much or as frequent as cat and bird) thus warrior.

That’s what I was getting at.

EDIT: I also kittened up the original post and was more trying to say that with the pet you’ll deal as much as/maybe even outshine the warrior, not the pet alone.

It is not unusual for a Jaguar to do steady 4-8k crits in sPvP, in WvW, with 17 might stacks (RaO + Warhorn 4), Signet of the Wild and Sic’em i have seen my cats attacks reach in excess of 10k for a few seconds. Sure the enemy can run in circles to avoid the pet, but since most professions OTHER then ranger has horrible DPS on AA, they actually hurt themselves more then it hurts us, especially when you run BM and you yourself run conditions while pet run raw damage.

I do like your adjustments to that build, Prysin.

But, thread? Doesn’t it seem a little silly to nitpick the particulars of a build when we’re 5 days away from a major balance patch?

Vox Hollow.2736:

I do like your adjustments to that build, Prysin.

But, thread? Doesn’t it seem a little silly to nitpick the particulars of a build when we’re 5 days away from a major balance patch?

these builds, regardless of how the patch changes things, will still work aslong as they do not change all our traits (which they are not doing).

Remember, the biggest change in terms of balance in this patch is the runes and sigil change + new GM traits. There will be other adjustments, but they have said they didn’t wanna go too kitten the balancing this time until they see how the runes and sigil change actually affects the meta. Some builds will be stronger, some will be barely affected.

As for BM builds – they are being massively buffed thanks to F2 response update, so anything running BM will be a million times more reliable. Sure the pathing will still be horrible, but knowing that pet utility, or attack/return command will work when you tell them to do something is just a massive change.
Some argue it is “too little, too late”, but those ungrateful jerks can just leave these forums right away. Their negativity only aids in destroying what little community feeling there is left.

@Hooma
Nice try, but you are commenting “cross mode”. That build is NOT a pureblood sPvP build, it is a PvX build. sPvP builds are generally made different because power specs are hopeless in there, no matter what prof you play. Conditions scale too well, too easily there so in sPvP, conditions are king. Come WvW are your average condi build is often getting smashed by power builds (such as this one) because A; higher stats, B; food buffs, C; less contained areas, thus easier to avoid huge marks on the ground.

Seriously, your comment shows a serious lack of understanding how the different modes works, and it is no more then an attempt at bashing someone.

Prysin.8542:

Durzlla.6295:

Atherakhia.4086:

AEFA.9035:

Atherakhia.4086:

Durzlla.6295:

Atherakhia.4086:

I don’t care how strong the build is. The pet will never come close to a Warrior or Thief, lol.

You’ve clearly never used a 25MB 30pt cat/drake/bird

You’ve clearly never played a Thief or Warrior.

Now it’s my turn…. rolls eyes

like i said before in ranger forums. the only way to see whos right is to go 1v1. been offering my self as tribute vs these forum warriors, let’s just all go 1v1 when we want to see who is right.

No one’s trying to prove one Ranger’s better than another. I don’t even mind the build Chrispy posted. It’s the commentary that the Ranger’s pet can replace an entire class that is outlandish. The implication that Chrispy’s build would be useful in anything but a duel. These are my issues with a lot of the comments in this thread and the CDI thread from last month or so.

Ravens and cats hit kittening hard, have big frequent burst and are squishy, thus thief, drakes are very tanky and hard to kill and have cleave + big damage and some burst (not as much or as frequent as cat and bird) thus warrior.

That’s what I was getting at.

EDIT: I also kittened up the original post and was more trying to say that with the pet you’ll deal as much as/maybe even outshine the warrior, not the pet alone.

It is not unusual for a Jaguar to do steady 4-8k crits in sPvP, in WvW, with 17 might stacks (RaO + Warhorn 4), Signet of the Wild and Sic’em i have seen my cats attacks reach in excess of 10k for a few seconds. Sure the enemy can run in circles to avoid the pet, but since most professions OTHER then ranger has horrible DPS on AA, they actually hurt themselves more then it hurts us, especially when you run BM and you yourself run conditions while pet run raw damage.

good joke

Prysin.8542:

@Hooma
Nice try, but you are commenting “cross mode”. That build is NOT a pureblood sPvP build, it is a PvX build. sPvP builds are generally made different because power specs are hopeless in there, no matter what prof you play. Conditions scale too well, too easily there so in sPvP, conditions are king. Come WvW are your average condi build is often getting smashed by power builds (such as this one) because A; higher stats, B; food buffs, C; less contained areas, thus easier to avoid huge marks on the ground.

Seriously, your comment shows a serious lack of understanding how the different modes works, and it is no more then an attempt at bashing someone.

really? i mean really? do u even play spvp? power specs are hopeless in there, no matter what prof?

every semi-pro thief with a spvp build eats that ranger build as long he is lvl 80 even with green gear and without any food buffs.

it has nothing todo with cross mode. this build has 0 defense. yeah it has 1 stunbreak and 1 short invul., 1 block but thats all regarding power attacks. even the condi remove is bad. except might buffs for pet (lol) there is no boon related to defense. nothing.

and btw do u really think without swiftness your pets will hit a moving target with 25% speed?

this build simply put all on his pet, that will regardless how the respond to f2 is, will be bad in attacking any player with a brain.

the next thing about the pets is the pet choice. is horrible. yeah the pets do dmg. but they has 0 cc or soft cc. besides the longbow knockbakc (lol knocking enemy out of pet attack) and your gs-stun (yeah go into melee with 0 defense)

and to get this clear i play true powerranger in spvp. i know what im talking about. with this build all he will kill are noobs or level up ppl

Ranger wishlist for balance:

- A condition removal skill that doesn’t blow our heal or kill our pets. Say, “Antidote Signet; Passive – conditions expire 50% faster. Active: Remove all conditions. 1s activation time, 45 second cooldown.”

- Remove the root on sword AA.

- Remove the range restriction on Longbow AA. (ie, does static damage over all ranges.)

- Make spirits immortal unless their active is used.

- Add a trait that reduces weapon swap time.

- Increase the direct physical damage on traps.

- Reverse how Signet actives work. Default behaviour should aid the ranger, not the pet.

- Most importantly, make the bloody pet optional. Stow pet, gain 25% damage on weapon skills and traps, and gain “spirit” of the animal class. Increased crit for felines, vitality for bears, toughness for drakes, condition duration for arachnids, etc.

Suddenly, the ranger becomes desirable. Yay!

Durzlla.6295:

It’s very apparent who the god awful rangers are when they’re shown a very solid build that has a metric kitten ton of survivability (for both the ranger and the pet) and damage yet they think it’s a kitten build…

If you won’t accept our help, there is no helping you, please just leave so we can get back to a real discussion.

And as Chrispy said there are a few working power builds out there, most of them don’t go very far into Skirmishing, and when they do it’s to boost the pet because that’s generally more useful than a few % more DPS for the ranger itself. Buff the pet, and you’ll do as much DPS as thieves and warriors (given the right pet)

EDIT: fixed for clarity.

it’s an ok at best build.
It lacks focus, as stated elsewhere, it’s a PvX build…
It might work all right in few occasion, but my focus was clearly WvW.
What does one do in WvW with 15k health and 2k toughness? Can’t go any near melee, so HS is useless for the group, might as well take a personal heal. Spotter? well, good for me, maybe, but once again, not for the group (600 radius is too small to give much distance benefits). So fragile you’d better stay on the wall to pew-pew, which mean the pet is not anywhere near the other bus.
And pet condition damage? Waouh! so useful to inflict conditions in bus fights!

When a build is posted in answer to someone’s stated problems, and the build answers none of these concerns, the build is sub-optimal, imho.
It might be solid in itself, pretty easy to come with solid build, but I’m still waiting for these “oh I’m such a good player that I keep my pet alife all the time” super secrets on keeping it alife “in all situations”.

FYI
15k health and 2k toughness, with one 6 seconds immutity per 60 sec (that might as well kill the pet, if it lasts half the duration), a 25% endurance regen, and the little GS and LB survivability options is not a build “that has a metric kitten ton of survivability (for both the ranger and the pet)”…
This one has a lot of survivability for the ranger.
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vMAQNBhOD7kRFqF0WWwjFoaBBxSxe2fTBnMPTB/LkrAqA-zEzAYLAMXkJIwkFISDQOPiZvhsWGLiGruGT5mI1bgVxokCAmlRA-w
Pet is depending on situation. When we are less than the ennemy, or on walls, I slot bear to soak up AoE damage and/or get added control (the only true option, imho, when I know there is no chance for me to save the pet, is to at least use it to it’s maximum) when equal numbers or in plains, either drakes or spiders. Sometimes dogs, for their F ability, but too unreliable, often, when we’d need it, it dies before the F2 fires…

So that build offers :
Ennemy control, allies heal (+1 blast per 30 seconds, + 50% uptime group fury, might and swiftness) and spotter, correct damages, good survivability
(i know the crit chance / crit damage ratio is not optimal, as is the excess 10% in condi duration and the 270 condi damage that is of no use), it’s the build that proved to be the most useful in my guild setup for WvW…

Durzlla.6295:

jcbroe.4329:

Arlette.9684:

My point was that the HP they have in WvW doesn’t match their Vitality. I mean regardless of pet toughness, a wolf with 14k HP instead of the 22k that it should have and does have anywhere outside of WvW. A warrior AoE’s for more than the HP of that pet.

You’re right, it is a silly change to only have that effect PvE. I didn’t mean to seem like I was arguing directly with you, but I am glad that you came out and said this point directly, because I completely agree. Pets should definitely have the same stats across all game modes anyhow, ESPECIALLY with the April 15th update trying to integrate the game modes better. It’s just another unnecessary barrier between game modes without even considering the effect it has on gameplay.

So yes, I totally agree with out on this.

ALL pets have increased stats in PvE, including minions, spirits, phantasms, turrets etc etc. This is because in PvE there are mechanics that made bad rangers VERY VERY VERY bad because they wouldn’t micro their pets and they would die horribly. A good ranged ranger didn’t normally have these issues because they’d ensure the pet wasn’t in harms way.

The same scenario takes place in WvW, people who micro the pet have little issue, those who don’t, have a dead pet. Instead of learning how to use the pet people are just asking for buffers, which wont work in WvW because a buffer in WvW gives us too big of an advantage due to it being vs other players.

Fixed that for you because melee rangers, such as myself, have always had this problem as we have discussed before when bringing in a melee pet for max damage.

thefantasticg.3984:

Durzlla.6295:

jcbroe.4329:

Arlette.9684:

My point was that the HP they have in WvW doesn’t match their Vitality. I mean regardless of pet toughness, a wolf with 14k HP instead of the 22k that it should have and does have anywhere outside of WvW. A warrior AoE’s for more than the HP of that pet.

You’re right, it is a silly change to only have that effect PvE. I didn’t mean to seem like I was arguing directly with you, but I am glad that you came out and said this point directly, because I completely agree. Pets should definitely have the same stats across all game modes anyhow, ESPECIALLY with the April 15th update trying to integrate the game modes better. It’s just another unnecessary barrier between game modes without even considering the effect it has on gameplay.

So yes, I totally agree with out on this.

ALL pets have increased stats in PvE, including minions, spirits, phantasms, turrets etc etc. This is because in PvE there are mechanics that made bad rangers VERY VERY VERY bad because they wouldn’t micro their pets and they would die horribly. A good ranged ranger didn’t normally have these issues because they’d ensure the pet wasn’t in harms way.

The same scenario takes place in WvW, people who micro the pet have little issue, those who don’t, have a dead pet. Instead of learning how to use the pet people are just asking for buffers, which wont work in WvW because a buffer in WvW gives us too big of an advantage due to it being vs other players.

Fixed that for you because melee rangers, such as myself, have always had this problem as we have discussed before when bringing in a melee pet for max damage.

It varied from fight to fight, for some of them hitting sword 2 + f3 would take the pet to safety, other times it would fail horribly, but otherwise agreed.

anet can’t help power based ranger builds.
because there’s still many peoples really, i cant belive it…
THINK a power ranger is viable.
for sure its viable… you can create it, you can equip it and you can play it, you also can beat noobs with it…

but its completely useless compared to everything other power based profession…

for the conversation between prysin and hooma,
hooma completely right, maybe one of the less ranger players with brain.
and in spvp are also powerbuilds viable, aswell condi builds

some one know this team set up?!
thief => power
mesmer => power
warrior => power with kittened burning field
guardian => def
spirit ranger => condi

uuhhh so much condi here!
and a top team in eu at the moment

Chrispy.5641:

Jocksy.3415:

You don’t deserve a video, but I will post one of my most powerful builds in WvW, and since it uses all Zerker gear (some assassin), you probably have most of the gear and can test it for yourself if you want :::

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vMAQJARTnMqQvgWyC2CCXLIIWKA0+bFoETxhS0TB6V/FT9xD-zUyAYfEMXgoIIUmAl8KiGbRtIas6aMVJRUt3gIqmUAsLMC-w

Highlights :::

• No 30 points invested for shouts or signets to ‘make them useful’. (I will sometimes not bother with Wilderness survival for a full 30 points in beastmastery though)
• Constant stream of Might, for both you, and your pet. (use sword/warhorn instead of greatsword for even more might on pet. you just lost alot of defense though.)
• A fully buffed Drake (30 beastmastery and 25 masters bond) will have 2218 power, 1874 precision, 2561 toughness, and 3,935 vitality (about 25000 health)
• With Spotter, the Drake will have 2024 precision.
• Using the Longbow, you can use barrage to preload 25 might on your pet immediately, without using Rampage as one. You can use that to make the might last longer than 5 seconds, and give the drake fury.
• A Well timed Lightning breath attack will do 2000 damage on each strike, and will also apply bleeding because of the rending attacks trait, which will deal an additional 87 damage per second if you stacked might on the pet beforehand. Doesn’t sound like alot, until that lightning breath bounces around, and will apply a large amount of extra damage in a group. (PROTIP – Use on a downed enemy to make using it easier, and so it hits everything around it!)
• If you want to have even more fun, switch out quickening zephyr for Signet of the hunt. time the drake’s Tail swipe attack with the signet. BAM! 3K+ damage, 6K+ if it crits, plus its an AoE. That’s also with no might added on. With 25 stacks of Might (which is easy to get with either Rampage as One or Barrage), the drake will have nearly 3000 power, which will make its Tail swipe attack deal 9K damage on a critical hit. (follow up with Maul or Rapid Fire to finish off the warriors. its not that hard)
• Protect me for stun break and your own survival, Guard for extra pet survival. Guard will keep the pet from dying in small encounters. In zergs, you are still on your own!
• If you use the Lynx instead for focus on a single target, fully buffed, It will outdamage you as soon as you stack might on it, and you yourself are still dealing a respectable 3K dps or so. Total sustained dps is 6-8k. There is no 70-30 split here.
• Best part? I created this build Today, in about 20 minutes. And it works just fine, even without ‘useful’ utility skills because I didn’t invest 30 points. It also works just fine in zergs, and works just fine in smaller groups. It doesn’t work so well solo, because you, the ranger will be targeted first, and will die a quick death, due to lack of utility skills.
• Your pet will stay alive if you watch its health. You also need to not be greedy with your heal. Pop it when you see your pet’s health get low, or it will die!. Put it on passive if its health gets low, or it will die!. Don’t let it get lost in a Zerg, because pets, like every other AI creature in the game, as well as like many players….will die!, the moment the zerg hits. Dodges and protection isn’t going to save it. Stop asking for a build that makes pets immortal.

What is so hard about this? About making a Ranger build that works in WvW (it also works quite well in general PvE, and it might be my new dungeon build, I like it so much).

The thing about the Ranger is, is that you are playing 2 seperate characters. You can’t only build yourself up, and expect the pet to work if you ignore it. At the same time, you can’t build only the pet up, and ignore yourself (I did this for awhile with Magi gear…..which can make pets nearly immortal, but it leaves you weak and helpless) The two are linked, and will never be seperated. A basic knowledge of Micromanagment IS REQUIRED to play Ranger!

You must be one of those rangers I two shot. The only thing you’re going to kill with this is players who are new or simply can’t play, or somebody who is focused on something else. My lootbag count in wvw is a constant reminder as to why zerker is horrid in wvw.

Prysin.8542:

@Hooma
Nice try, but you are commenting “cross mode”. That build is NOT a pureblood sPvP build, it is a PvX build. sPvP builds are generally made different because power specs are hopeless in there, no matter what prof you play. Conditions scale too well, too easily there so in sPvP, conditions are king. Come WvW are your average condi build is often getting smashed by power builds (such as this one) because A; higher stats, B; food buffs, C; less contained areas, thus easier to avoid huge marks on the ground.

Seriously, your comment shows a serious lack of understanding how the different modes works, and it is no more then an attempt at bashing someone.

Condition builds will smash any power build outside of zergs. They will always be king for 1v1 or small scale in wvw or spvp. Especially considering the stupid nerf they are giving crit damage, that will widen the gap even more between condi and power for small scale pvp/wvw.

Let’s refocus here guys. The scope has been zoomed in way too far into a much too specific scenario and the discussions because of that have become less constructive in nature at trying to find solutions, and more deconstructive in nature by simply trying to prove each other wrong, which isn’t the purpose of the thread.

So, we’re going to take a step back here and refocus:

Everything up until we turned this thread into the post CDI thread was discussed during the CDI, except specifics on certain things such as:

• reasoning and solutions to the necessity of 30 point investments to make utilities useful
• the poor functionality of shouts and a potential rework of them
• lack of unique or meaningful functionality in large scale combat

On that last point, what is meant by it is that rangers can really only build for themselves with most of their utilities. The only real support type options we have are taking shouts with Nature’s Voice, or Spirits, and Spirits of course suffer in large scale combat situations just like all the other AI in the game.

So essentially, it’s saying that as far as functionality goes, rangers in large scale combat do little more than add extra damage output and extra bodies, and due to less AoE options than other damage classes and less team support options (the only reason mesmers have it any better in large scale combat is their utility options, for instance), it makes ranger players feel that they lack a particularly meaningful role in this area of combat.

Now, while the pet can also be viewed as problematic in these large scale combat scenarios, there are many more solutions to the problem than just going through pets.

For instance, just spitballing here, but let’s assume that signet of the beastmaster is removed and signets are reworked. What if we gave Shouts as they currently are a Signet of the Beastmaster effect, but made it effect all allies? Like “these shouts now effect you and your allies in x radius.”
As an example, “Guard” would make you and your allies and your pet all stealth and gain the boons, Sic’ Em would increase all you and your allies damage and speed, etc (I’m putting an etc here because it’s just an example and I don’t have good rework ideas for SnR and Protect Me).

Wouldn’t something like that, regardless of the efficiency of the pet, immediately make rangers a much more valued part of large scale combat?

It’s not just a utility problem, but a weapon problem too. The weapons themselves also don’t provide anything of value to a group. Warrior’s have Hammer. Thieves have Shortbow. Guardians have Hammer and Staff. Engineers have grenades. Necromancer has staff. Elementalist has staff. Mesmer has staff (though that one is reaching a little). These all offer very strong group utility (offensive or defensive) and ensure each of these classes has a real role to provide in WvW.

What does the Ranger have? There’s really nothing outside of barrage, and we all know how incredibly bad that skill is. Mesmer is in a very similar boat, but it’s actually kind of worse because they have utility skills as an option. But what does that do? It removes a lot of their build diversity because every Mesmer in WvW is automatically down 2 utility slots if they plan to run with a group. I really don’t want the Ranger to have a similar problem.

Now as for your shout suggestion, I’m absolutely on board with the shouts being improved to actually have some real use for the Ranger and their group outside of Nature’s Voice. I’m not necessarily on board with granting stealth to a group (while powerful, it’s not overly useful as we don’t currently see a bunch of thieves dropping refuge for a zerg for example and it will just be used as more roaming/dueling utility which this class doesn’t need). But the general concept is very much needed as right now shouts have questionable use.

Atherakhia.4086:

It’s not just a utility problem, but a weapon problem too. The weapons themselves also don’t provide anything of value to a group. Warrior’s have Hammer. Thieves have Shortbow. Guardians have Hammer and Staff. Engineers have grenades. Necromancer has staff. Elementalist has staff. Mesmer has staff (though that one is reaching a little). These all offer very strong group utility (offensive or defensive) and ensure each of these classes has a real role to provide in WvW.

What does the Ranger have? There’s really nothing outside of barrage, and we all know how incredibly bad that skill is. Mesmer is in a very similar boat, but it’s actually kind of worse because they have utility skills as an option. But what does that do? It removes a lot of their build diversity because every Mesmer in WvW is automatically down 2 utility slots if they plan to run with a group. I really don’t want the Ranger to have a similar problem.

Now as for your shout suggestion, I’m absolutely on board with the shouts being improved to actually have some real use for the Ranger and their group outside of Nature’s Voice. I’m not necessarily on board with granting stealth to a group (while powerful, it’s not overly useful as we don’t currently see a bunch of thieves dropping refuge for a zerg for example and it will just be used as more roaming/dueling utility which this class doesn’t need). But the general concept is very much needed as right now shouts have questionable use.

Yeah, I didn’t touch on the weapon aspect of it enough, you’re right.

Also, for the Guard thing, it wouldn’t just be the stealth, it would be the protection too, which is what would make it strong.

But yeah, I was just spitballing.

I think the ultimate point I’m trying to make is that even if the pet was perfect, it wouldn’t be a go to option for large scale combat, unless it could reliably and repeatedly cleave and survive, and at that point, we will have gone full circle back to the reason why they were originally nerfed to begin with.

The shorter version of everything is this; we need group options through weapon and utility and even trait functionality that we simply do not have right now. And that through improvements to those areas, without changing a single aspect of the current pet, we would still become immediately more desired for large group play because we would be bring something interesting and unique to the table other than just a “pew pew/sword swing” damage increase.

jcbroe.4329:

• reasoning and solutions to the necessity of 30 point investments to make utilities useful

I believe you aren’t looking at it from the right perspective. I don’t think that the trait investment itself is the issue. Investing 30 points in a Trapper build is a reasonable investment and it is something you see across all classes. Other classes probably got less GM utility traits. They still end up spending 30-40 points on triats which directly or indirectly affect their utilities, just scattered across more lines (e.g. Stealth or Glamours on Mesmers, weapon kits on Engineers, Shouts on Warriors and Guardians).

The issue I personally see is the bad performance of Ranger utilities as long as they are not used in a ‘themed’ build. Meaning, the baseline effectiveness of some Ranger utilities is a bit too low when used on their own. I’m thinking about Traps (durations), Spirits and Shouts (messy in general). Survival skills and Signets on the other hand perform quite well even though most people get upset about the Signet of Beastmastery.

In short: Investing 30 points into a utility set isn’t a bad thing. The maximum performance of the utilities (themed builds) and the needed trait investment feels alright. But ANet might have to consider shifting some power from traits to the utility skills without altering the maximum possible performance too much.

jcbroe.4329:

• the poor functionality of shouts and a potential rework of them

I’m all up for a shout rework and also posted one in the CDI thread. I also really liked the idea of reworking Natures Voice into a trait which grants a unique boon per shout instead of the flat Regeneration and Swiftness.

A shout rework could be one way of making Rangers more important in WvW and also providing group support outside of Spirits and Spotter in PvE.

jcbroe.4329:

• lack of unique or meaningful functionality in large scale combat

What role would you like the Ranger to fulfill? Area damage? CC? Support? Frontline?

Rangers can actually do most of this in certain ways. Other classes just do better. There aren’t any Mesmers around because of the same reason even though they ironically actually have unique utilities.

I think that a shout rework could help here. But I don’t expect any Ranger specific change which suddenly makes this class more attractive as long as the WvW meta stays the same.

jcbroe.4329:

Yeah, I didn’t touch on the weapon aspect of it enough, you’re right.

I think many people exaggerate when claiming weapon traits to be necessities on Rangers. Yes, there are many. But you really do not have to get all of them (or any at all) to be effective. I never felt obliged to pick weapon traits on my Ranger. The only exception probably being Longbow.

Edit – Due to balance changes on the 15th, I will not go into any further detail on the build I posted. I also want to see the thread go into a more constructive direction.

@Prysin – The goal of the build was to have as much DPS as possible, split equally between me and my pet. I will admit to being quite wreckless in WvW and PvE. I like dealing alot of damage, so survival is not usually that high on my list when I consider build options. Thanks for suggesting the Toxic maintenance oil though. I didn’t notice that the difference in precision was only a few points.

warriorjrd.8695:

You must be one of those rangers I two shot. The only thing you’re going to kill with this is players who are new or simply can’t play, or somebody who is focused on something else. My lootbag count in wvw is a constant reminder as to why zerker is horrid in wvw.

This one I will reply to though……

You must be one of the Warriors I downed in like, 2 seconds using a stealthed Lynx followed up with a Maul.

@Xaylin;

About the utilities regarding 30 point investments, that’s actually what I was trying to express. Not that needing 30 points is a bad thing, but that utilities should be strong enough at a base level to not facilitate the need for 30 points to be effective. Traiting for utilities should be taking effective utilities and making them more effective.
Sadly, it’s an issue that every class in the game experiences with at least a few of it’s utilities.

As far as unique/meaningful roles go, I would say it depends on how you build it, but my opinion on it is that certain weapons and weapon roles should involve a “sniper” build in which we do high damage at range to a single target (I see Read the Wind as being perfect for this).

Mid range could be either power or condition based, but I believe that this should be an area we can shine in by having good mid range AoE options and be able to support at mid range through AoE control effects and Spirits. If the weapons were more AoE based and our traps were less negligible to large groups with a 900 range, rangers would have a very unique role of being able to “lock down” an AoE zone with non-negligible soft CC’s and immobilizes.

Melee range, I imagine rangers as more beastmaster than anything. Not to say that you have to build for your pet to use a melee weapon, but that a melee weapon lets you fight right up alongside your pet, and in that regard, the melee weapons can still have decent output, but they should also be pet conscientious as well long currently, the sword 1 chain is by soft CC locking down a target and giving the pet a damage boost, while they can now catch the target you are locking down easier.

For the last part, I don’t honestly think I’ve ever heard anybody call ranger weapon traits outside of longbow related traits a necessity. But I do agree with Atherakhia.4086 that when it comes to ranger weapons, we seem to lack any support based weapons outside of the longbow applying vulnerability. I mean, we don’t have any Line of Warding or Earthshaker or Temporal Curtain. The bows especially have boring designs that not only don’t offer anything graphically interesting, but all have skills that are pretty much just “shoot an arrow, shot some arrows.” Barrage is like, the one unique bow skill, and the weapons just need something thematically similar. Something that is functionally appealing and useful in a group setting.

jcbroe.4329:

About the utilities regarding 30 point investments, that’s actually what I was trying to express.

Whoups. My bad. I thought it was more referring to the placement of utility traits on the GM leveln since there was some discussion about it earlier.

jcbroe.4329:

As far as unique/meaningful roles go, I would say it depends on how you build it, but my opinion on it is that certain weapons and weapon roles should involve a “sniper” build in which we do high damage at range to a single target (I see Read the Wind as being perfect for this).

Is this a desirable large scale role? I personally don’t think so. It is more for roaming or small group skrimishes. The benefit a sniper would bring to a large fight is rather small. You just got to look at Killshot on Warriors.

jcbroe.4329:

Mid range could be either power or condition based, but I believe that this should be an area we can shine in by having good mid range AoE options and be able to support at mid range through AoE control effects and Spirits. If the weapons were more AoE based and our traps were less negligible to large groups with a 900 range, rangers would have a very unique role of being able to “lock down” an AoE zone with non-negligible soft CC’s and immobilizes.

Well… I always felt that Rangers can already to this (condition based) with Traps. Granted, they can’t hit as many targets as Grenades but they can still slow down a lot of people. I also feel that the 600 range is enough. As long as you don’t use a Longbow and trait for ranged combat that is. But most people seem to prefer to stay in the back when using Traps although they appear to be designed for mid to close combat. The only issue I see for WvW is Traps being condition based whereas power would be better. But we can tell it works in close combat in general when looking at PvP.

Giving them a 900 range would just make them a poor mans Grenade. I’d rather see their effects being improved in some way that aids the close to mid range combat aspect. But that’s just my personal preference.

jcbroe.4329:

Melee range, I imagine rangers as more beastmaster than anything.

The question would be how you’d keep your pet alive, though.

I think the Survival skills our Shouts (if reworked) could be suitable for the frontline. For example, with Survival of the Fittest, MT and LR you got a quite solid base for a soft CC frontliner. You could mix in another Trap for more CC (Frost) or heal mitigation (Poison), pick Healing Spring and Horn for blasting the fields. Sword as main weapon for damage.

That, by the way, might actually be a scenario where, despite all the hate it got, Striders Defense could shine. You would have to worry less about projectiles when at the frontline. People really underestimate the amount of projectiles flying around.

jcbroe.4329:

For the last part, I don’t honestly think I’ve ever heard anybody call ranger weapon traits outside of longbow related traits a necessity. But I do agree with Atherakhia.4086 that when it comes to ranger weapons, we seem to lack any support based weapons outside of the longbow applying vulnerability. I mean, we don’t have any Line of Warding or Earthshaker or Temporal Curtain.

There recently has been a discussion on how to pick all the ‘needed’ GS traits at once and it happens on a very frequent base for bows all the time. Maybe necessity is the wrong word but somehow people feel the obligation to get them all just because they are available. I just wanted to emphasize that the untraited weapons by far aren’t as bad like some people make them seem to be. Just because they can be traited doesn’t mean they have to be traited.

I guess you are right about the group support on weapons. However, I don’t really see bows being the right candidate for that. It probably would be convenient but doesn’t feel appropriate to me. If Rangers had staffs… Otherwise, I think that the off-hand choices could make the Ranger more group friendly. The Horn could need a slight rework (e.g. moving Fury to Hunters Call and increasing the Might stacks on Call of the Wild). I can also see the Torch becoming more groupfriendly. The name Bonfire just screams support (e.g. condition cleanse or group Vigor). I’m not a big fan of more blinds, though. Even the OH Axe could provide more group support if the radius of the reflect on #5 was increased slightly. This way you could protect your allies more efficiently.

Overall, I don’t either find our weapons that crappy, though having some more group utility on them would be great.

I’d like for us to be able to never be rooted (especially axe #5, though LB would be nice too), for maul build to be a little bit toned down with increased AA and somewhat smaller tell, but these are details.

I wouldn’t mind traits to give us that possibility (eg, might be X chance on critical to grant fury to allies and yourself when wielding a melee wepon, or x chance on hit to grant protection to allies near target, or when you dodge, you, your pet and allies in range get protection – in short, less “your pet gets” only, and more “your pet and allies” or “you and allies”). That would allow us to build for teamplay, if we so wish, without the need to change a weapon for support.

But if shouts would have integrated team support, with still the possibility of the traited shout build, and traps toned up a little bit, while it might mean toning traits down somewhat, and so on, that could help to not have the feeling we have to build one way or the other to make things useful.

oh there’s some posts deleted i wanted to replay.
well nevermind

for ranger balance i still think
anet have first to look on all weapon skills, especially longbow and longsword
aswell on the offhand axe 5 self root.
after that they have to look on the slot skills, especially on shouts.
and then they should look on the traits and make traits working fine together with weapon skills, slot skills and pets.
sounds really easy but still feels like they dont have do that yet much…

i think more players should post ideas about how they think what should work
different or better on some weapons, slot skills and pets they dont like yet

something like “thats how i think this weapon, slot skill or pet should work”

on spoiler how i would think longbow and longsword could work good,
but its pvp oriented

i really think all ranger players should spend a bit time and think about how some things they dont like on ranger could work better.
should make it much more easy for a dev to pick out things, if they still look in here Oo

Oidmetala.8426:

longsword:

skill1: increased attack speed
skill2: still maul, but without bear animation and a bit faster, huge damage and blast
skill3: new skill: step sideward (dodge) and attack with decent dmg + cripple
lower cooldown, maybe if press again throw your sword and chill
skill4: block like now arrows and melee, if block melee it knocks the enemy down with a faster animation then yet and decent dmg. if you press the skill twice then you do the skill swoop like it is now in the game but with cripple if it hits in front. if it hits behind it knocks the enemy.
skill5: step sideward (dodge) and daze, so its like the old skill but with dodge. but it needs more range to use it effective when you whant interrupt enemeys

about skill2: still maul, but without bear animation and a bit faster, huge damage and blast
balance-wise it’s never going to happen.
If they reduce animation on it, they’s also reduce damage.
Big damage attacks cannot have no tell. and given in some build, it can one-shot ennemies, no animations is a big no.
bit reduced damages (so that the Gs OS build deals 20k maul instead of 30k), somewhat lesser tell and transfer damages to #1 might work, but I don’t ever see them giving powerful attacks with no tell and a blast all in one…
(and i like the animation – big bear and roar – fitting, imho).

Idk, I feel like I’ve got a good amount of control (what you guys are referring to as support) in my build by taking LB + A/A you’ve got vuln, you’ve got a cripple field, you’ve got 2 interrupts (a KB and a pull) you’ve got a MASSIVE reflect bubble when traited (with vuln application), and a chill + weakness, not to mention the stealth really is useful for supporting builds, you can summon elite spirit, start rezzing, etc. which is helpful.

Not to mention we have our pets for supporting and controlling too. My only complaint is we don’t have a support heavily weapon other than Warhorn (think staff for Mesmer, necro, guardian and ele) where most the abilities can be used to benefit allies quite nicely.

And that’s the exact problem Durzlla. When you ask players to rank classes from most to least useful in WvW, the Ranger, Thief, and Mesmer tend to round out the bottom. The thing all these classes have in common is no real group weapon.

The question then becomes can we improve a weapon enough to actually offer enough to make the Ranger become noticed in WvW or if it’s a lost cause and a new weapon would end up being needed?

What are some things this game’s lacking or what are some things that are currently running unopposed that a Ranger could be given?

Atherakhia.4086:

And that’s the exact problem Durzlla. When you ask players to rank classes from most to least useful in WvW, the Ranger, Thief, and Mesmer tend to round out the bottom. The thing all these classes have in common is no real group weapon.

The question then becomes can we improve a weapon enough to actually offer enough to make the Ranger become noticed in WvW or if it’s a lost cause and a new weapon would end up being needed?

What are some things this game’s lacking or what are some things that are currently running unopposed that a Ranger could be given?

Personally, we need a new weapon if we want “The support weapon” to be in our kitten nal, that or just totally rework Greatsword and gear it more towards being support + defense than damage + defense.

Ways to do that:

1) Cut the damage on Maul Significantly, it now applies 5stacks of 10s Might to allies, blast finisher.
2) Make Swoop Apply Swiftness to nearby allies.
3) Counterstrike applies protection (very short, only like 1s, 2s top), if you block an attack you apply retaliation (3-4s?) to yourself, and maybe allies as well.
4) Make Hilt Bash apply vulnerability as well.

If the AoE effects are too strong by default, tie that into Greatsword Mastery in NM and make the “fury on hit” an AoE effect as well. Boom, weapon is now a very viable support weapon, and probably wouldn’t lack in damage due to the boons also going onto your pet if you have 15pts in NM.

Greatsword has always felt more “druidy” due to the animations imo, wouldn’t be too much of a stretch or an unwelcome change to make the weapon more interesting and provide more utility. Sure, people will be upset that they can’t 1shot people with maul anymore, but i’m pretty sure that’d be overlooked.

Chrispy.5641:

Edit – Due to balance changes on the 15th, I will not go into any further detail on the build I posted. I also want to see the thread go into a more constructive direction.

@Prysin – The goal of the build was to have as much DPS as possible, split equally between me and my pet. I will admit to being quite wreckless in WvW and PvE. I like dealing alot of damage, so survival is not usually that high on my list when I consider build options. Thanks for suggesting the Toxic maintenance oil though. I didn’t notice that the difference in precision was only a few points.

warriorjrd.8695:

You must be one of those rangers I two shot. The only thing you’re going to kill with this is players who are new or simply can’t play, or somebody who is focused on something else. My lootbag count in wvw is a constant reminder as to why zerker is horrid in wvw.

This one I will reply to though……

You must be one of the Warriors I downed in like, 2 seconds using a stealthed Lynx followed up with a Maul.

Don’t let the name fool you already more than it has, I play a ranger. I would love to see you try and get close to me with that much armour, or any competent warrior. Like I said, the only thing you will kill with that are people who cant play.

warriorjrd.8695:

Chrispy.5641:

Edit – Due to balance changes on the 15th, I will not go into any further detail on the build I posted. I also want to see the thread go into a more constructive direction.

@Prysin – The goal of the build was to have as much DPS as possible, split equally between me and my pet. I will admit to being quite wreckless in WvW and PvE. I like dealing alot of damage, so survival is not usually that high on my list when I consider build options. Thanks for suggesting the Toxic maintenance oil though. I didn’t notice that the difference in precision was only a few points.

warriorjrd.8695:

You must be one of those rangers I two shot. The only thing you’re going to kill with this is players who are new or simply can’t play, or somebody who is focused on something else. My lootbag count in wvw is a constant reminder as to why zerker is horrid in wvw.

This one I will reply to though……

You must be one of the Warriors I downed in like, 2 seconds using a stealthed Lynx followed up with a Maul.

Don’t let the name fool you already more than it has, I play a ranger. I would love to see you try and get close to me with that much armour, or any competent warrior. Like I said, the only thing you will kill with that are people who cant play.

You realize most thieves and warriors would be running to him and it’d literally take one dodge roll for him to dodge their burst and be able to kill them right?

Glass vs Glass doesn’t favor the thief or warrior when a ranger is involved, the rangers attacks can be dodged and nothing really happens since most your damage is from autos, you dodge their attacks though and there goes almost all their damage, and their burst.

Durzlla.6295:

Atherakhia.4086:

And that’s the exact problem Durzlla. When you ask players to rank classes from most to least useful in WvW, the Ranger, Thief, and Mesmer tend to round out the bottom. The thing all these classes have in common is no real group weapon.

The question then becomes can we improve a weapon enough to actually offer enough to make the Ranger become noticed in WvW or if it’s a lost cause and a new weapon would end up being needed?

What are some things this game’s lacking or what are some things that are currently running unopposed that a Ranger could be given?

Personally, we need a new weapon if we want “The support weapon” to be in our kitten nal, that or just totally rework Greatsword and gear it more towards being support + defense than damage + defense.

Ways to do that:

1) Cut the damage on Maul Significantly, it now applies 5stacks of 10s Might to allies, blast finisher.
2) Make Swoop Apply Swiftness to nearby allies.
3) Counterstrike applies protection (very short, only like 1s, 2s top), if you block an attack you apply retaliation (3-4s?) to yourself, and maybe allies as well.
4) Make Hilt Bash apply vulnerability as well.

If the AoE effects are too strong by default, tie that into Greatsword Mastery in NM and make the “fury on hit” an AoE effect as well. Boom, weapon is now a very viable support weapon, and probably wouldn’t lack in damage due to the boons also going onto your pet if you have 15pts in NM.

Greatsword has always felt more “druidy” due to the animations imo, wouldn’t be too much of a stretch or an unwelcome change to make the weapon more interesting and provide more utility. Sure, people will be upset that they can’t 1shot people with maul anymore, but i’m pretty sure that’d be overlooked.

Though the suggestions are nice, I think that the GS by itself is one of the most balanced weapon that the Ranger has access to together with Shortbow. What I have not seen in forums are players looking at it a different way.

Rangers in ANets perspective is a solo killer, and our weapons states that as well. If things will change, ANet would put up support in our utilities. Live examples of these so far are:

1. Natures Voice
2. Spirit Rangers

Soon:

Invigorating Bond

As you can see, support are in either in our utilities, traits, or through our pets. It has never been in our weapon except for Warhorn. In GW2 people do not consider your contribution unless you’re giving boons or doing aoe damage in front of their face, this is the mind set of pve and wvw players that are all over the forums. Im not promoting Ranger as an ok class, we are not ok. Also, our weapons as most of you know, ties to our pet because this is the vision of ANet since the beginning to have the ultimate duo. (Sword pounce; GS hilt bash) What I want to see more of are killer weapon sets and more support in our utilities rather than to put support in our weapons, and I think thats exactly how ANet sees it too.

Durzlla.6295:

warriorjrd.8695:

Chrispy.5641:

Edit – Due to balance changes on the 15th, I will not go into any further detail on the build I posted. I also want to see the thread go into a more constructive direction.

@Prysin – The goal of the build was to have as much DPS as possible, split equally between me and my pet. I will admit to being quite wreckless in WvW and PvE. I like dealing alot of damage, so survival is not usually that high on my list when I consider build options. Thanks for suggesting the Toxic maintenance oil though. I didn’t notice that the difference in precision was only a few points.

warriorjrd.8695:

You must be one of those rangers I two shot. The only thing you’re going to kill with this is players who are new or simply can’t play, or somebody who is focused on something else. My lootbag count in wvw is a constant reminder as to why zerker is horrid in wvw.

This one I will reply to though……

You must be one of the Warriors I downed in like, 2 seconds using a stealthed Lynx followed up with a Maul.

Don’t let the name fool you already more than it has, I play a ranger. I would love to see you try and get close to me with that much armour, or any competent warrior. Like I said, the only thing you will kill with that are people who cant play.

You realize most thieves and warriors would be running to him and it’d literally take one dodge roll for him to dodge their burst and be able to kill them right?

Glass vs Glass doesn’t favor the thief or warrior when a ranger is involved, the rangers attacks can be dodged and nothing really happens since most your damage is from autos, you dodge their attacks though and there goes almost all their damage, and their burst.

Theives have defensive mechanics, much more than a ranger does. Stealth. They are more mobile than a ranger and almost as evasive if not more evasive. A warrior is heavy armour and has high HP pool, as well as access to invlun and blocks. The defensive skills are there for warrior and thief, but where are they for ranger?

Sure we have stealth on our longbow for 3 sec on a 12s CD untraited, not bad. We have a block on our greatsword that is broken if hit with melee. Great against ranged but melee it’s not too hot as a block. We have a 6s invuln that has a very high likely hood of killing our pet, which is a solid chunk of our damage. The other invlun we have requires 30 trait points and is 80s CD by default. The point I’m trying to make (perhaps too subtly) is that rangers, aside from evades, have little defensive utilities or options.

If you want to go full glass on a warrior, go for it. You have heavy armour and high HP pool so it’s not too risky. You can also disengage whenever you want to if things don’t go your way. Thieves can go full glass and still have stealth to offer them some protection, and they too can disengage quickly.

In short, other classes can go full glass and still have a much easier time than ranger due to class mechanics and better defensive utilities.

warriorjrd.8695:

Durzlla.6295:

warriorjrd.8695:

Chrispy.5641:

Edit – Due to balance changes on the 15th, I will not go into any further detail on the build I posted. I also want to see the thread go into a more constructive direction.

@Prysin – The goal of the build was to have as much DPS as possible, split equally between me and my pet. I will admit to being quite wreckless in WvW and PvE. I like dealing alot of damage, so survival is not usually that high on my list when I consider build options. Thanks for suggesting the Toxic maintenance oil though. I didn’t notice that the difference in precision was only a few points.

warriorjrd.8695:

You must be one of those rangers I two shot. The only thing you’re going to kill with this is players who are new or simply can’t play, or somebody who is focused on something else. My lootbag count in wvw is a constant reminder as to why zerker is horrid in wvw.

This one I will reply to though……

You must be one of the Warriors I downed in like, 2 seconds using a stealthed Lynx followed up with a Maul.

Don’t let the name fool you already more than it has, I play a ranger. I would love to see you try and get close to me with that much armour, or any competent warrior. Like I said, the only thing you will kill with that are people who cant play.

You realize most thieves and warriors would be running to him and it’d literally take one dodge roll for him to dodge their burst and be able to kill them right?

Glass vs Glass doesn’t favor the thief or warrior when a ranger is involved, the rangers attacks can be dodged and nothing really happens since most your damage is from autos, you dodge their attacks though and there goes almost all their damage, and their burst.

Theives have defensive mechanics, much more than a ranger does. Stealth. They are more mobile than a ranger and almost as evasive if not more evasive. A warrior is heavy armour and has high HP pool, as well as access to invlun and blocks. The defensive skills are there for warrior and thief, but where are they for ranger?

Sure we have stealth on our longbow for 3 sec on a 12s CD untraited, not bad. We have a block on our greatsword that is broken if hit with melee. Great against ranged but melee it’s not too hot as a block. We have a 6s invuln that has a very high likely hood of killing our pet, which is a solid chunk of our damage. The other invlun we have requires 30 trait points and is 80s CD by default. The point I’m trying to make (perhaps too subtly) is that rangers, aside from evades, have little defensive utilities or options.

If you want to go full glass on a warrior, go for it. You have heavy armour and high HP pool so it’s not too risky. You can also disengage whenever you want to if things don’t go your way. Thieves can go full glass and still have stealth to offer them some protection, and they too can disengage quickly.

In short, other classes can go full glass and still have a much easier time than ranger due to class mechanics and better defensive utilities.

You have to keep in mind that being rangers we have a lot of ways to keep the enemy from getting close to us, and as long as our pet can get to the enemy if we have a ranged vs ranged duel, we’ll win that as long as we don’t get hit by say, kill shot.

The thief has stealth and mobility, we have mobility and ranged as our prime defenses, not to mention we can also evade as much, if not more than a thief (it really depends on who you ask).

When i go glass I NORMALLY, take LR, MT, and either SotH or QZ (as a sort of “I’ll kill you first!” sorta stun breaker, it works a good chunk of the time), then again my glass builds tend to be designed more like a Hunter in WoW where i’ll stay far away from you and just go “pew pew” until you die, where most rangers seem to go and try to burst which has never been my style…

And the defenses of the ranger are evasiveness, mobility, and ALWAYS having access to an easily maintained soft CC and sometimes a hard CC. Every single one of our weapon sets has at LEAST one soft CC tied to it, usually on a short CD so we can more easily play “keep away”, pair that with our utilities designed to keep the enemy away from us (or allow us to get to them if you’re melee), as well as our ungodly large amount of evades melee range, etc, we’re not lacking in defensive utilities. Just because we aren’t armed to the teeth in invulnerabilities like a warrior and we don’t get stealth (hardly a good defense in most situations) easily doesn’t mean we’re lacking in options.

AEFA.9035:

Durzlla.6295:

Atherakhia.4086:

And that’s the exact problem Durzlla. When you ask players to rank classes from most to least useful in WvW, the Ranger, Thief, and Mesmer tend to round out the bottom. The thing all these classes have in common is no real group weapon.

The question then becomes can we improve a weapon enough to actually offer enough to make the Ranger become noticed in WvW or if it’s a lost cause and a new weapon would end up being needed?

What are some things this game’s lacking or what are some things that are currently running unopposed that a Ranger could be given?

Personally, we need a new weapon if we want “The support weapon” to be in our kitten nal, that or just totally rework Greatsword and gear it more towards being support + defense than damage + defense.

Ways to do that:

1) Cut the damage on Maul Significantly, it now applies 5stacks of 10s Might to allies, blast finisher.
2) Make Swoop Apply Swiftness to nearby allies.
3) Counterstrike applies protection (very short, only like 1s, 2s top), if you block an attack you apply retaliation (3-4s?) to yourself, and maybe allies as well.
4) Make Hilt Bash apply vulnerability as well.

If the AoE effects are too strong by default, tie that into Greatsword Mastery in NM and make the “fury on hit” an AoE effect as well. Boom, weapon is now a very viable support weapon, and probably wouldn’t lack in damage due to the boons also going onto your pet if you have 15pts in NM.

Greatsword has always felt more “druidy” due to the animations imo, wouldn’t be too much of a stretch or an unwelcome change to make the weapon more interesting and provide more utility. Sure, people will be upset that they can’t 1shot people with maul anymore, but i’m pretty sure that’d be overlooked.

Though the suggestions are nice, I think that the GS by itself is one of the most balanced weapon that the Ranger has access to together with Shortbow. What I have not seen in forums are players looking at it a different way.

Rangers in ANets perspective is a solo killer, and our weapons states that as well. If things will change, ANet would put up support in our utilities. Live examples of these so far are:

1. Natures Voice
2. Spirit Rangers

Soon:

Invigorating Bond

As you can see, support are in either in our utilities, traits, or through our pets. It has never been in our weapon except for Warhorn. In GW2 people do not consider your contribution unless you’re giving boons or doing aoe damage in front of their face, this is the mind set of pve and wvw players that are all over the forums. Im not promoting Ranger as an ok class, we are not ok. Also, our weapons as most of you know, ties to our pet because this is the vision of ANet since the beginning to have the ultimate duo. (Sword pounce; GS hilt bash) What I want to see more of are killer weapon sets and more support in our utilities rather than to put support in our weapons, and I think thats exactly how ANet sees it too.

I personally think if we were to have a support weapon it should be a NEW weapon, i was just throwing my 2 cents into what they could do if they wanted GS to be a support weapon (easiest one to transition imo).

And we’re beyond “ok” we’re in good shape, once our pets AI is fixed we’ll be in AMAZING shape, and a lot of that is getting fixed next patch which is HUGE.

That being said I totally agree that most people don’t even realize the support people bring when boons aren’t being thrown all over the place, I know my build can maintain 100% regen easy (which in PvP ticks for like 310, only 82 hps less than Healing Sig) + condition removals and other healing through pets and then increased rez speeds and very rarely do people notice what it is my builds even doing (thank god or i’d be focused easily in PvP lol).

That being said we do need a little bit more for support, and i’m dying to learn what the numbers are for Invigorating Bond… Idk if i’m gonna take that trait, or if i’m going to be holding onto Zephyrs Speed for speedy stomps and rezzes… we’ll find out soon enough!