Guild Wars 2

It’s been over a month since the balance patch hit us, so I think it’s a good time to have a little discussion about where the elementalist currently stands in sPvP, tPvP and WvW.

Allow me to start with my area of expertise, WvW roaming.

Pre-patch, a classic D/D roamer was already very viable. By no means overpowered, but I never felt like I had an unfair disadvantage over other opponents. The inflated stats in a WvW environment benefit the elementalist far more than other classes, due to having the lowest base stats. Disregarding skill-level, the matchups a pre-patch ele would lose were: condi engi, corrupt necro, S/D thief, PU phantasm mesmer, condi perplex thief. A healing power condi ranger could pose a threat, but as long as you were running ether, you were fine. Boonrip shatter was about a 50/50 matchup. All other matchups were pretty much in favor of the ele. D/D has always been a potent 1vx spec against unexperienced players, since it can easily kite heavies around while chasing a backline.

Post-patch: I have to say there is a lot more room for error now. Rune of strength has lifted the damage to a whole other level, and burning speed evade is completely ridiculous vs certain specs. The matchups that a post-patch ele loses (disregarding skill level) are corrupt necro and condi thief. Condi engi is 50/50, only if he runs perplexities. S/D thief is also 50/50. It should also be noted that corrupt necro has become quite doable with burning speed to pop marks, as it denies the safety of standing in the marks. Not only have the matchups we lose been reduced drastically, the amount of effort it takes to beat all other specs has sunk tremendously. Just stack 25 might and lightning whip your opponent to death with a sigil of air. Shatter mesmer is completely hopeless now that we can burning speed every single one of their sword immobs, and S/D thief just cant keep up with the sheer damage. Just standing in your ring of fire will burn him for 3k damage every time he shadowsteps to you.

I could rant on for ages about how different elementalist feels now in WvW, but the short version is, it has become easy to perform decent at ele, at the level of most other professions. Good players can however perform better than pretty much every other profession. I don’t think that’s a good thing, although I know the number 1 complaint pre-patch was how hard it was to perform decently on ele.

The story is entirely different in PvP however. Pre-patch, playing an elementalist put you at an immediate and sizeable disadvantage. It was doable, but there were definitely better specs out there. Not at all like WvW, in PvP you were at a decisive disadvantage.

Post-patch ele in PvP feels like pre-patch ele in WvW. It has a place, but is by no means overpowered. If anything is overpowered, it’s just the rune of strength. The class itself feels perfectly fine to me. I reckon the reason people complain so much in PvP, is just that they’re not used to ele being viable, and losing to one is very strange to them.

In the conquest game-mode, the only thing that would make the ele worth picking, is the fiery greatsword mobility, and high 1v1 potential, with good 1v2 bunker potential. An elementalist is very easily denied usefulness though. A bunker-ish home-point defender, such as necro, ranger or warrior, and a mobile far-point-assaulter can completely shutdown an ele, since he has very poor teamfight contribution.

This post is long enough, let me know what you think! I’m very curious what the general consensus is.

TL;DR: elementalist feels too strong in WvW roaming, but nicely balanced in sPvP and tPvP.

Sadly, all the balance effort has gone into D/D yet again, and other weapons just ignored.

Am still waiting on the day that i can roam with my staff ele and not be at a tremendous disadvantage vs certain classes/specs.

Am still waiting for the day when I can equip a focus and have it feel like it offers something to make it worth considering over /D (besides novelty value).

Same goes for signets, glyphs, conjures.

I think any balance discussion of Ele should be focused on the things that AREN’T performing, instead of continually focusing on D/D.

never going to happen because arena net’s answer to ’ i want to run a non-dagger elementalist ’ is roll engineer

I’m happy with the patch’s balance changes.

I don’t use runes of strength as I think they’re a problem, but I do think eles are in a great place now in WvW and spvp.

I’ve seen some staff eles wrecking in spvp, an increased number of eles around (which has leveled out finally as people are re-giving up on their old ele alts) and my d/d ele roaming squads are taking on triple our number in WvW. Super fun.

I disagree with your WvW roaming assessment and it sounds like you where a 2/2/2 or divinity Rune user (I ran those setups before on different armor sets). I don’t know for sure if you just ran nothing but general boon duration pre-patch but Rune of Strength has little to do with Ele being better at WvW roaming.

Rune of strength in regards to Elementalist gives us a big whopping +2% damage, 10 power, and +25% might duration compared to pre-patch. Of course it’s more damage if all you knew was divinity runes and a lot more you where 2 monk/ 2 water/ 2 traveler user.

We only need 20% for 25 stacks of might anyway with d/d if you run 6 arcana. I ran rune of strength pre patch and pulled 20+ stacks of might easily. Honestly the extra 25% duration is largely wasted on a 6 arcana Elementalist and better for other classes. If you where fighting a sustain fight maintaining the peak 20+ stacks is better for long fights (guardians and other elementalists) but usually when you hit 20 the fight is usually close to over. Anyone that ran strength runes or hoelbrak pre-patch can probably attest to 20+ stacks with ease.

The general boon duration setup was also missing +155 power pre-patch now that you can’t run +75% boon duration the natural move was toward damage/might stacking.

So pre-patch if you ran 2/2/2 post patch you migrated to +165 power +7% damage your might duration didnt change (assuming 6 arcana). That is kind of self explanatory why your damage is “on a whole other level”.

TL&DR on Strength Runes 2/2/2 general boon duration was the popular setup for many people. Of course your going to see a lot more damage if you inject +165 power and 7% damage mod into your build if all you ran was general boon duration.

I started running Strength Runes a while back so for me it’s hardly noticeable. I probably have a thread posted somewhere on these forums advocating Rune of Strength pre-patch since they competed with even Ruby Orbs back then.

EDIT My old posts on these Runes
Just for reference I have always been a fan of Runes of Strength pre-patch and had a lot of time using them while many where doing 2/2/2

5 months ago
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Rune-of-strength-is-fixed-tested/first#post3388360

Almost a year ago
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Recommended-Runes-for-Elementalist-Builds/first#post2147410

As far as your specific 1v1’s – Many necros dropped dhuumfire and are trying to adjust , since that is a big loss of dps, I don’t main necromancer but I am pretty confident that my new necromancer build, wouldn’t lose to any standard D/D Ele build it’s that strong (it’s also not perplexity).

Your experience sounds different then mine which is probably how everyone’s will be. My personal experience is Necro, Engi, are still strong vs Ele. S/D 6 trick thief is 50/50 but it has been ever since they nerfed larcenous strike about 3 patches ago. A Mace/Shield + GS warrior will eat your lunch no matter how many stacks of might you have. Glass PU mesmers always 50/50 for me pre/post patch. Condi PU mesmer in the mesmers favor pre/post patch unless they are bad and you are forced to run ether renewal anyway just to stand a chance.

It’s all personal experience I don’t think d/d ele got easier to win with and lyssa nerf was big for S/D thieves since that was a very very popular rune for thieves giving them a free chance to spike you. Dhuumfire nerf is also huge and can’t be discounted either.

To this day I await these tremendous guardian builds I’m told about. In my experience it is pretty much impossible to effectively lose to a guardian. Although from the guardian’s perspective it looks like you’re constantly winning trades, the ele is 100% in control of the fight. He can slow it down and sustain back up, or speed it up at will. That’s just the nature of the matchup, with guardian being extremely easy to kite.

You make a good point about rune of strength versus the old setup. I agree the transition isn’t a buff to ele per say, but it’s hardly a dent if you look at what happened to lyssa’s. I strongly disagree that the might duration is wasted on ele however. That’s the kind of conclusion you draw from a little too much PvGolems. In a real fight, the might duration from runes of strength is very useful in that it allows you to have more flexible rotations without having to constantly be dropping pressure to aura leap or what not.

I agree to most of your arguments ozii, and if you look at it purely stat-wise, not much seems to have changed. But if you look at the bigger picture, how pretty much every class lost part of its strongest builds, how burning speed evades and frozen burst is a minimal cooldown blast, elementalist feels stronger than it’s ever been in WvW. And I didn’t feel like i needed buffing pre-patch.

I’m not sure what your point is on the whole rune of strength thing. First you say it’s not really that great on ele, then you say you’ve been a long time advocate for it. IMO it’s pretty much equally strong as the old boon duration setup used to be. I would still prefer 45% boon duration over the pre-patch rune of strength though.

I suppose part of the reason I’m feeling the lack of effort required is my moderate investment in healing power, which bumped me up to 2.2k dodge rolls/water attunes.

That is always the case with Guardians. Has always been because we have soft CC and they don’t. Meditation guard is their best chance but it is still a extremely difficult fight. I have a guard and ele is difficult to beat has always been.

I never said that Strength runes aren’t that great on Ele I was saying that if you used another setup or strength runes or even a more dps rune setup pre-patch the damage increase is small if you ran boon duration setup then you will see a big difference in damage. Also remember ferocity nerf hurt crit damage rune sets.

My comment about the extra duration is when you hit 25 stacks of might how long can you maintain that with normal play before stacks fall off. Sigil of battle is 30 seconds with 50% duration and blast finisher is 22.5 secs. That is plenty of time to go through your attunements with normal play and maintain 25 stacks of might. The extra 25% post patch gives you an additional 11 seconds on blast finisher and 15 on battle. I’ll admit going from 1 fight to the next if it is close by then having stacks ready is great I can’t disagree with that. My point was more on a 1v1 scenario.

Not sure if the OP is referring to average roaming or dueling top players. You can’t simply disregard skill level. Some classes like thief I’ll beat maybe 90% until I find a really good player who wins against me 3/4s of the time. The skill caps are different on every class which makes it impossible to come up with a general % win/loss for 1v1 (not that 1v1 is even that meaningful).

If you hang around OS in T2 at least, you’ll see a lot of different fights than the average classes found roaming. Over the last week I’ve faced a D/P-S/D thief that I lost about 75% to (20+ duels), warriors (mace shield/ GS crit spike) that I could only beat maybe 1/8 even knowing stun breaks are their counter, a zerker mes I went 0-3 to (only mes I’ve lost to in a long time), a tanky condition ranger that I don’t even know what he was running, and a couple condition eles I couldn’t beat. While pretty much everyone I find roaming I can beat just because the average skill level seems much lower than people specifically looking to duel in OS. So I’m really not sure how you could come up with an accurate assessment class vs class like that when skill and specific builds are such a huge factor.

Overall I would say ele is fine in terms of 1v1 balance, which is a big improvement from pre-patch. In PvP they add a lot in a team (both staff and d/d) though I’m not seeing a huge amount of eles, compared to, say, necros or warriors which are all over the top 100-200. This implies some degree of balance but not overpowered.

Zephyrus.9680:

Not sure if the OP is referring to average roaming or dueling top players. You can’t simply disregard skill level. Some classes like thief I’ll beat maybe 90% until I find a really good player who wins against me 3/4s of the time. The skill caps are different on every class which makes it impossible to come up with a general % win/loss for 1v1 (not that 1v1 is even that meaningful).

If you hang around OS in T2 at least, you’ll see a lot of different fights than the average classes found roaming. Over the last week I’ve faced a D/P-S/D thief that I lost about 75% to (20+ duels), warriors (mace shield/ GS crit spike) that I could only beat maybe 1/8 even knowing stun breaks are their counter, a zerker mes I went 0-3 to (only mes I’ve lost to in a long time), a tanky condition ranger that I don’t even know what he was running, and a couple condition eles I couldn’t beat. While pretty much everyone I find roaming I can beat just because the average skill level seems much lower than people specifically looking to duel in OS. So I’m really not sure how you could come up with an accurate assessment class vs class like that when skill and specific builds are such a huge factor.

Overall I would say ele is fine in terms of 1v1 balance, which is a big improvement from pre-patch. In PvP they add a lot in a team (both staff and d/d) though I’m not seeing a huge amount of eles, compared to, say, necros or warriors which are all over the top 100-200. This implies some degree of balance but not overpowered.

I am referring to 1v1 scenarios in both roaming and the sanctum (just because that is the simplest case to consider). I very much agree that the skill level on average roamers is leagues below what you tend to find in the os. I play T2 EU and have an amazing time there. Ofcourse these numbers I mention are extremely rough estimates. It’s not really about the numbers, more about the huge swing in our 1v1 potential. I feel quite bad when I start beating the people I used to lose to because of a lucky burning speed evade and what not. I guess that’s the main point I was trying to bring across. Having spent as many hours there as I have, I would say I have become quite adept at assessing a matchup disregarding player skill.

Gokil.2543:

I am referring to 1v1 scenarios in both roaming and the sanctum (just because that is the simplest case to consider). I very much agree that the skill level on average roamers is leagues below what you tend to find in the os. I play T2 EU and have an amazing time there. Ofcourse these numbers I mention are extremely rough estimates. It’s not really about the numbers, more about the huge swing in our 1v1 potential. I feel quite bad when I start beating the people I used to lose to because of a lucky burning speed evade and what not. I guess that’s the main point I was trying to bring across. Having spent as many hours there as I have, I would say I have become quite adept at assessing a matchup disregarding player skill.

You really should just take 1v1 duels with a grain of salt. Meditation Guard is one of the strongest 1v1 builds in the game with it’s weakness being Elementalist and Necromancers while being very strong against mesmers, and almost hard countering a thief, and Warriors really need a mace/shield+GS to beat medi guard, people don’t complain about it because out roaming it lacks mobility unless you put on traveler runes which also lowers your dps. So since it’s slow it doesn’t get complained about on gw2 forums but if it did have mobility it would probably be complained about as much as warriors do.

My point in saying you can’t disregard skill level is also that, given equal player skill level between opponents, x class/build vs y class/build at, say, the 50th percentile will often go very differently than the same thing at, say, the 95th percentile.

For example, thieves have always been a classic case for this since the average player really doesn’t know how to deal with stealth and thief mechanics, even against an average thief.

Why take 1v1 duels with a grain of salt? If everybody in a Zerg ran a successful well rounded 1v1 build, said Zerg would be able to easily take on at least it’s number in size if not more.

Everybody says 1v1 is kitten, but they’re wrong. The game isn’t balanced around 1v1, but it is still a very real part of the game. Ignoring it only kills you in the end. Ozi I know you don’t ignore it, but that’s the truth of the matter

In WWW we have only DPS.
The lack of mobility makes DD ele horrible….

If you want to succeed you use an extremely high burst build.

This gives opponent chance to answer and disengage, and once this happened ele will have ridiculous cd to deal with and will lose.

Also if opponent Attacks first ele will be forced into defensive and lose again

And once again will lose in any scenario in 2VS2, 3VS3 and so on.

Finally if you go something non dps, you will be outrun even by mesmers.

If you think that DD ele is good in WWW you possibly never met a good www roamer.

DD ele is only good at killing unsuspecting zerker roamers like thieves and similar and even so it requires outplaying your target.

DD ele without mobility is not viable in WWW.

I find DD ele to be very mobile.

Before patch everyone agreed ele was too easy to kite.

Suddenly we became mobile ._. with no change in mobility.
Interesting.

Ele is mobile only if he wants to flee with a fgs, that won t work btw to follow your target..

LordByron.8369:

Before patch everyone agreed ele was too easy to kite.

Suddenly we became mobile ._. with no change in mobility.
Interesting.

Ele is mobile only if he wants to flee with a fgs, that won t work btw to follow your target..

Depends on weapon set/build vs what you are fighting.

If Warrior using GS+ SW/X and Thief carrying Shadow step are the gold standards for mobility then a D/D ele is behind those surely and those 2 examples can out kite a Elementalist with D/D builds. If your fighting a guardian then it is reversed and you can’t keep the ele off of you or stop him from getting away.

TLDR: situation specific

As i said a D/D ele needs to stay in opponent range.
D/D has what i’d call a small mobility burst.

After last runes change, ele mobility got a huge hit (to achieve permaswiftness we need to burn really important spells on long CD).

Guardian can just CC ele (lack of stability) or ignore it if not dps since won t be able to kill it.

Only exception could be a necro.

LordByron.8369:

As i said a D/D ele needs to stay in opponent range.
D/D has what i’d call a small mobility burst.

After last runes change, ele mobility got a huge hit (to achieve permaswiftness we need to burn really important spells on long CD).

Guardian can just CC ele (lack of stability) or ignore it if not dps since won t be able to kill it.

Only exception could be a necro.

Assumes Guardian is bunker not dps. Guardian quick CC is from Scepter on a low CD, ring of warding is on a 40 sec cd, line of warding is on a 40 sec cd, that you can just lightning flash or pop armor of earth. A guardian can’t keep an elementalist off of them trust me.

Try using either windborne dagger or zephyr’s boon. Only some warriors and SB thieves have higher mobility. Usually it’s only the troll warrior builds that are able to run.

Maybe I’m in the minority for preferring windborne dagger for mobility that will always be useful, over renewing stamina, for a few extra dodges that I probably won’t even use in a fight.

Zephyrus.9680:

Try using either windborne dagger or zephyr’s boon. Only some warriors and SB thieves have higher mobility. Usually it’s only the troll warrior builds that are able to run.

Maybe I’m in the minority for preferring windborne dagger for mobility that will always be useful, over renewing stamina, for a few extra dodges that I probably won’t even use in a fight.

You can get by without renewing stamina using energy sigils, soothing disruption, or even zephyr’s focus.

LordByron.8369:

As i said a D/D ele needs to stay in opponent range.
D/D has what i’d call a small mobility burst.

After last runes change, ele mobility got a huge hit (to achieve permaswiftness we need to burn really important spells on long CD).

Guardian can just CC ele (lack of stability) or ignore it if not dps since won t be able to kill it.

Only exception could be a necro.

I’ve always found ele to be pretty mobile. It can get outrun by warrior and thieves, but as frustrating as that is at times, it’s usually not too bad as you can usually beat them.

The real trouble is zergs so thirsty, they need to kill any roamer they see, and a sprinter war ties you down for the Zerg to catch up.

No the issue is Killing something without being full dps.

Once you burnt RTL you are done.
Now achieving permaswiftness requires to put half of your skills on cooldown.

You can t say that fire 2 + rtl is mobility.
You can be outrun by a mesmer with no effort.

Zergs are not an issue.
If they follow you, you already won.

LordByron.8369:

No the issue is Killing something without being full dps.

Once you burnt RTL you are done.
Now achieving permaswiftness requires to put half of your skills on cooldown.

You can t say that fire 2 + rtl is mobility.
You can be outrun by a mesmer with no effort.

Zergs are not an issue.
If they follow you, you already won.

? I run 4 in air and the only thing I need for permaswiftness is shocking aura and swap to air. I don’t mind using the shocking aura since I use aeromancer alacrity and it’s ready every 15 seconds.

LordByron.8369:

No the issue is Killing something without being full dps.

Once you burnt RTL you are done.
Now achieving permaswiftness requires to put half of your skills on cooldown.

You can t say that fire 2 + rtl is mobility.
You can be outrun by a mesmer with no effort.

Zergs are not an issue.
If they follow you, you already won.

In all truth that’s a you problem. I’m not saying l2p or anything, but I don’t have that issue. I can escape just about anybody to the point that they give up. And that’s without FGS.

Mbelch.9028:

LordByron.8369:

No the issue is Killing something without being full dps.

Once you burnt RTL you are done.
Now achieving permaswiftness requires to put half of your skills on cooldown.

You can t say that fire 2 + rtl is mobility.
You can be outrun by a mesmer with no effort.

Zergs are not an issue.
If they follow you, you already won.

In all truth that’s a you problem. I’m not saying l2p or anything, but I don’t have that issue. I can escape just about anybody to the point that they give up. And that’s without FGS.

Its more L2read i guess

P.S. alt+f4 i guess if you can escape thieves and warriors.

LordByron.8369:

Mbelch.9028:

LordByron.8369:

No the issue is Killing something without being full dps.

Once you burnt RTL you are done.
Now achieving permaswiftness requires to put half of your skills on cooldown.

You can t say that fire 2 + rtl is mobility.
You can be outrun by a mesmer with no effort.

Zergs are not an issue.
If they follow you, you already won.

In all truth that’s a you problem. I’m not saying l2p or anything, but I don’t have that issue. I can escape just about anybody to the point that they give up. And that’s without FGS.

Its more L2read i guess

P.S. alt+f4 i guess if you can escape thieves and warriors.

What exactly are you saying? Can a mobility specced thief or warrior catch up to you? Yes. Can they kill you? No. Elementalist mobility is absolutely fine. There is no faster spec that can outperform D/D ele, and when using fgs, there pretty much is no faster spec. I have absolutely 0 trouble killing stuff, so I’m not sure what you’re on about on that front either.

Trying to get some use out of your needless hyperbole in this balance discussion, you would say elementalist is currently blatantly underpowered? Noted.

Gokil.2543:

LordByron.8369:

Mbelch.9028:

LordByron.8369:

No the issue is Killing something without being full dps.

Once you burnt RTL you are done.
Now achieving permaswiftness requires to put half of your skills on cooldown.

You can t say that fire 2 + rtl is mobility.
You can be outrun by a mesmer with no effort.

Zergs are not an issue.
If they follow you, you already won.

In all truth that’s a you problem. I’m not saying l2p or anything, but I don’t have that issue. I can escape just about anybody to the point that they give up. And that’s without FGS.

Its more L2read i guess

P.S. alt+f4 i guess if you can escape thieves and warriors.

What exactly are you saying?

If you read the thread i m saying you can t prevent your opponent to flee in WWW.
PvP is a different story.

Unless you go burst.
But even so you have really to be perfect…

If you are one of those celestial/Knight mixed XXX46 DD eles you won t kill any decent:
Mesmer
Thief
Warrior
Engi
Guardian
Ranger (didn t see last nerfs but they used to outheal your damage even in Zerk+celestial…unless they mess up).

We NEED something to be able to stay in fighting range.
Lacking that, evades and stealth will just give opponents easy opportunities to kite you or escape even when they messed hard.

FGS is a fleeing option (Slotting an elite with the purpose to escape is not a winning mindset …..).

Won t help to stay in fighting range.

Can a mobility specced thief or warrior catch up to you? Yes. Can they kill you?

If you say no, you never put a foot in WWW.

Thief has many builds, a couple of them are DD ele counters…
So what you say is the usual “l2p i can kill everyone and everything” that doesn t add anything to the situation.

No. Elementalist mobility is absolutely fine. .

Not in WWW.
In that broken absurd mode that is PvP capture point, maybe… in WWW Always struggled since they nerfed RTL.

And at least, differently from you, i provided reasons..
Cya

P.S: for now not taking in account traited air.

LordByron.8369:

If you are one of those celestial/Knight mixed XXX46 DD eles you won t kill any decent:
Mesmer
Thief
Warrior
Engi
Guardian
Ranger (didn t see last nerfs but they used to outheal your damage even in Zerk+celestial…unless they mess up).

As others have said, that has to be an issue on your part. Two simple questions, meaning no offence:

Do you WvW?

Do you think elementalist is underpowered?

Have fun
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Best-professions-for-roaming/first#post4064080

You might want to look also in thief section…

Can link you like 30 more….
I www since release and i use ele since release.

L2p are useless posts.

Since you nowaday meets 99,9% of pve achievement hunters and zerg builds you might have gotten a wrong idea about the profession.

Hints:
D/D weknesses are:
1) XvsX (ex 2vs2 or 3vs3)
2) being kited
3) low damage (partially solved by runes of strength)

But i think is better to just try to look cool with a “l2p”….after all forums are not to discuss stuff.

P.S. if you wanna know i think whoever designed professions, designed RTL to be the core of DD weaponset.
They could have nerfed anything but that….but since they balance about Capture point, the problems were never so clear.

But hey… its the same everytime…even after the cantrip nerf i had so many posts like yours…

LB, I kill each of those on a daily basis, some of which are very good. Some of those I WvW duel on a regular basis, and regularly beat.

I haven’t lost to a Mesmer 2X in a row (sometimes I will lose my first duel vs a Mesmer since their builds are so diverse) since pre-patch.

That proves my point.
You are Killing pve players.

Killing a thief only suggests the thief is bad.
Same for mesmers.

They are hardcounters to DD.

Try again in few weeks with season over (maybe some roamer with high www rank).

P.S: losing is a thing… Killing is another.
If you duel your opponent:
-Won t attack by surprise
-Won t flee
-you won t be interrupted
-etc etc.

LordByron.8369:

That proves my point.
You are Killing pve players.

Killing a thief only suggests the thief is bad.
Same for mesmers.

They are hardcounters to DD.

Try again in few weeks with season over (maybe some roamer with high www rank).

P.S: losing is a thing… Killing is another.
If you duel your opponent:
-Won t attack by surprise
-Won t flee
-you won t be interrupted
-etc etc.

Killing doesn’t suggest the thief is bad in the slightest some thieves get thirsty and stay because they think they can win. Lets call that ego something many players have. If the thief doesn’t leave and you kill him it doesn’t mean he was bad just that he decided to not run.

Also it is very possible to kill thieves with D/D. I fight amonatory often on my D/D ele and we usually Split our duels and if you go on the thief forums consensus is that Amon is a very good thief. Make a post titled “Is Amonatory a good thief” most of the thief forums know who he is. I don’t know if you just have troubles with thieves but for me the hardest fights are S/D w/ 6 trick (which amonatory runs) and a P/D condi thief only if they use body shot correctly but most don’t and try to 1 and 5 spam.

A PU power mesmer doesn’t hard counter a Ele because it is a attrition fight on both sides. It’s annoying and the mesmer might win most of the fights but it’s not like we are talking condi necro with a dagger and staff vs condi engi here. That is borderline hard counter for profession v profession. Shatter mesmer is really the only hard counter Mesmer has for D/D as in they should win 90% of the fights.

Well i written another page to explain in detail why you are justjumping on the pvp bandwagon without considering differences between pvp and www.

But since you didn t read a word i wrote…i won t discuss this again.

Lets wait season 2 finish and you will see where you are wrong (and don t consider DUELING that is not WWW for a reason…its more pvp).

Just a final thing:
If you argue you can beat what have been considered the 2-3 most OP builds of a gamemode, you either gives detail or don t write it at all.

Ex how do you deal with phantams + conditions from a stealthed enemy that will heal as fast as you stop focusing?

How you prevent the profession with the best mobility and stealth to escape?
“pride” is not even Worth discussing….

Also you might want to read that link i posted some detailed posts about www mechanics will easily answer your points.

tldr

LordByron.8369:

Well i written another page to explain in detail why you are justjumping on the pvp bandwagon without considering differences between pvp and www.

But since you didn t read a word i wrote…i won t discuss this again.

Lets wait season 2 finish and you will see where you are wrong (and don t consider DUELING that is not WWW for a reason…its more pvp).

Just a final thing:
If you argue you can beat what have been considered the 2-3 most OP builds of a gamemode, you either gives detail or don t write it at all.

Ex how do you deal with phantams + conditions from a stealthed enemy that will heal as fast as you stop focusing?

How you prevent the profession with the best mobility and stealth to escape?
“pride” is not even Worth discussing….

Also you might want to read that link i posted some detailed posts about www mechanics will easily answer your points.

You are contradicting yourself if you consider a thief is so strong because it can always get away and if you kill one then he is bad then a PU mesmer is the weakest roaming class because it can’t stop anyone else from getting away.

That thread you linked is basically dueling 1v1 builds because roaming builds are 1v1 oriented.

Here is another link

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/PvX-Best-of-1V1/first#post4072844

Watch this thread for a few days and see how that thread and the one you link will almost look identical.

I don’t understand how you can say a Ele is weak and thief is strong because the Ele can’t stop the thief from getting away when a PU mesmer(from you linked thread) can’t stop anyone from getting away.

I can escape PU mesmers on my condi necro and guardian.

So I’m a rank 65 tpvp player, don’t always team up with my guildies though.
I run multiple classes but for elementalist with 1300/2000 hours is definately my main.

I run:
D/F standard might stacking elementalist with cantrips, runes of the grove, glyph of elemental power (in air or water is a great debuff).

D/W & Staff Power DS necromancer, I do nearly as much damage in death shroud as a normal power necromancer would do in lich form but with more survivability. (weak to cc though)

Pistol/Shield hybrid bomb/elixer gun engineer, condi removal is only half-decent but its passive heals rival that of a healway guardian while still being able to do damage equaling that of the elementalist mightstacker build but then with an aoe-heal to allies.

P/D & D/D condition thief, stacking 25 bleeds in 4 seconds… 2500 dmg per second, is weak against condi removal but the P/D set-up gives decent sustain damage.

Healway standard Guardian with shouts. Terrible damage good heals but low armor and hp.

Tanky shout warrior, ridiculous amount of condi removal, hp and armor. 3555 armor and 30k hp…. its crazy. Plus due to having an axe as main-hand you’re still able to do passable damage.

But of all these professions in tpvp or any pvp I feel like there are some classes that can just confuse their opponents by combining CC (hard and soft CC), mobility and passive healing.
Since the nerf to burst sustain has become more important. The elementalist and engineer both have decent sustain, CC, mobility and can still do decent damage.
The nerf to direct damage burst has also increased the viability of conditions and the importance of condition removal of which both the elementalist has a ton.
Only profession I can think of with better condi removal would be the necromancer (dagger no.4 and staff no. 4 transfer conditions and their heal increases effectiveness based on conditions and DS is a soft counter to conditions).

What the april patch has done is that it made sustain and hybrids more viable in pvp situations. Elementalist is a sustain hybrid due to the passive heals, decent condi removal and the general class mechanic. It used to be lop-sided towards berserker dps in pvp. Everyone ran either tanky or dps and a few condition guys. Elementalist can’t ever max out in any one role due to our class mechanic which is why it always felt sub-par.

WWW …….

@ozii
why posting links that clearly states PU and thief are the strongest?

If you think i countradicted myself you didn’t clearly read what i wrote.

What have both mesmer and thief builds, ele lacks?
They can go offensive because they have surviving mechanics.

Ele can ’t be built like pvp to be balanced.
You won t prevent your opponent to escape while you won t be able to escape yourself.

Opposite to what happens in PvP.

And in case of multiple opponents(and allies) they focus you because DD:

If tank does no damage
If DPS can t do anything to prevent a fast Death
If balanced is like dps.

You lack a role….everything you can think of is made better by more than 2-3 other professions…(except for zerging).

I always found d/d to be the easiest to perform great in wvw roaming due to the higher amount of reliable and powerful weapon skills. This set has it all when it comes to mobility, constant pressure, damage, bunker, recover, defense. Staff and scepter are more of a challenge but it is still very possible to perform great in WvW roaming and even in spvp with these weapons. In regards to mobility to escape anyone all that is needed is fgs, 25% movement speed or swiftness and LF. Of course, the experience varies by player but I always have fgs when I need it. Even with fgs on cd and running without mobility like s/f there are still other ways to escape.( not including logging off lol). The game does not revolve around 1v1 but it sure helps to have a solid foundation within this setting to obtain overall improvement as a player. Finally like I always said the Ele can beat all professions and all players on 1v1 but don’t expect to accomplish this with a single weapon set and build. Winning on outnumber encounters is always against inexperienced or much lower skilled players. It is not possible to win against good or equally skilled players as an Ele or as an any other profession. One good player will give you enough of a challenge regardless of the build or profession you are utilizing. Against 2 good players at the same time will demolish you eventually if you do not receive help or decide to escape.

sorrychief.2563:

tldr

OP stating what he sees different in spvp/wvw with ele since the update. One guy complaining about ele’s more or less, people pointing out flaws in his argument, then he brushes them off and still says everyone is wrong. Seems to be a common trend with said guy (not OP) in other threads. ._.

is this a kitten measuring contest

edit: thanks for explaining to me Aphrodesiac, reading isn’t my favorite skill to use

Aphrodesiac.2913:

sorrychief.2563:

tldr

OP stating what he sees different in spvp/wvw with ele since the update. One guy complaining about ele’s more or less, people pointing out flaws in his argument, then he brushes them off and still says everyone is wrong. Seems to be a common trend with said guy (not OP) in other threads. ._.

Pretty much this ^^ everyone has their own opinion but me and tormentum pretty much disagree with Byron’s assertions. He can’t be referring to sPvP because we know ele is used there now and is a stable class for top teams now. So if it isn’t dueling and just actually roaming chance encounters then I disagree with him completely. I think he is giving to much credit to thieves and mesmers and his reasons for thieves being strong is going all out offense and being able to escape is the same thing a Ele can do to a PU mesmer. A PU mesmer cannot stop anyone from leaving a fight any mesmer not in denial will tell you that. I have a mesmer and run it PU occasionally even in full zerk people can get away. Create thread in Mesmer Forums asking how you stop people from gettng away as PU and they will tell you that you can’t. I’m in all the forums for classes except rangers, mostly in the Ele and profession balance but I can give a pretty good perspective on each sub-forum.

LordByron.8369:

WWW …….
What have both mesmer and thief builds, ele lacks?
They can go offensive because they have surviving mechanics.

Ele can ’t be built like pvp to be balanced.
You won t prevent your opponent to escape while you won t be able to escape yourself.

Opposite to what happens in PvP.

And in case of multiple opponents(and allies) they focus you because DD:

If tank does no damage
If DPS can t do anything to prevent a fast Death
If balanced is like dps.

You lack a role….everything you can think of is made better by more than 2-3 other professions…(except for zerging).

It’s pretty much the opposite of all this.

Ele is very well suited to a balanced build or a more defensive stat setup because of hybrid damage from constant burning and the amount of damage coming from might.

Ask a mesmer or thief if they can do damage on a more tanky build. Of course there are condition builds but condition builds don’t make big plays, they’re more 1v1/roaming builds and not even much better if at all. PU mesmers are a not a big threat and can’t even consistently win 1v1s anyway — I’m assuming this since I haven’t lost to one since coming back to GW2 over a month ago.

Thieves in WvW are pretty much 0 risk. In pvp they’re decent, S/D can at least play on the same level, D/D thief can win a 1v1 but not often. If you’re seeing something completely different, learn to play thief.

For mobility/cc, your opponent will not be able to escape (except GS warrior and lucky thieves) and you yourself will be able to escape pretty much at will. If you already wasted the skills you would have needed, learn to play (learn to think ahead).

RTL: 1200 range
Lightning flash: 900 range
Burning speed: 600 range
Total: 2700 range. That will usually break combat.

Here’s an example of that distance: http://youtu.be/yZ4A0C6hmpc?t=15s

If you run it (I don’t), add in FGS for another 900+900 (1800) range of dashes on short cooldown.

In small groups, let them try and focus. All utilities taken by eles are generally defensive. Both d/d and staff have plenty of defensive skills, d/d in particular.

For roles, eles can fill in almost any role and multiple roles at once and can excel in just about any scale, whether solo, small team, or zerg. Would you call all roles lack of roles? X, Y, or Z class/build being better at a single specific role is just balance.

You seem to emphasize quite alot about D/D.
However, in PVP, S/F is quite viable in terms of the sheer damage it poses, while having quite abit of sustainability provided by focus.
It also benefits greatly from rune of strength as well.

scerevisiae.1972:

Sadly, all the balance effort has gone into D/D yet again, and other weapons just ignored.

Am still waiting on the day that i can roam with my staff ele and not be at a tremendous disadvantage vs certain classes/specs.

Am still waiting for the day when I can equip a focus and have it feel like it offers something to make it worth considering over /D (besides novelty value).

Same goes for signets, glyphs, conjures.

I think any balance discussion of Ele should be focused on the things that AREN’T performing, instead of continually focusing on D/D.

Focus is an extremely viable weapon as it is.
2 CCs
1 total invicinbility (no other invincible skill is as strong as this one)
1 cleanse
1 projectile destruction for a very wide range
1 eight secs fire field w/o the need of trait

The only thing thing focus need to improve is the water skills.
It seems to be lack in alot of aspect, in both damage and utility.

Focus water skills are great it’s fire that are weak

Focus is now a very well balanced weapon. It used to be extremely clunky, didn’t do any damage, everything was heavily telegraphed and bugged.
I’m sad that they nerfed swirling winds though, it was fun to block treb shots and champs ranged attacks with it, now only the wall of reflection can counter boss’s ranged attacks.

Water no.4 low dmg and low chill duration… But chill is a very nice condition to apply so… Then no. 5 is a good interrupt for preventing stomps, same as no. 5 in air pretty much except it does damage and isn’t single target + its a blast finisher, if you have dagger in main-hand you’ll have two blast finishers in water, so that’s more than you have in earth which might seem a bit strange for folks who first try out this weapon set.

As for fire, fire no.4 is a long duration fire field, lasts long enough to cast all sorts of combos in it, and no. 5 the flame aura has become quite viable since it got buffed to give might. in conjunction with magnetic leap over the flame wall you can keep the flame aura going for quite a long time aka more more might and burning on targets.

Zephyrus.9680:

Total: 2700 range. That will usually break combat.

cool

LordByron.8369:

Ele is mobile only if he wants to flee with a fgs, that won t work btw to follow your target..

I havn’t played ele much but I wanna say that whatever they do, it won’t work out as it is. They want to balance WvWvW, PvP and PvE all under one blanket. 3 completely different game modes.

It’s impossible.

LordByron.8369:

Ele is mobile only if he wants to flee with a fgs, that won t work btw to follow your target..

Why not? You can use it to close gaps and then drop it once you have big skills up. What’s your point there anyway? If you’re chasing someone you shouldn’t need it anyway unless you’re running a build that can’t kill anything period.

Are classes other than warrior or thief outrunning you? Otherwise I don’t understand what you’re trying to point out about the 3rd most mobile class.

Zephyrus.9680:

LordByron.8369:

Ele is mobile only if he wants to flee with a fgs, that won t work btw to follow your target..

Why not? You can use it to close gaps and then drop it once you have big skills up. What’s your point there anyway? If you’re chasing someone you shouldn’t need it anyway unless you’re running a build that can’t kill anything period.

Are classes other than warrior or thief outrunning you? Otherwise I don’t understand what you’re trying to point out about the 3rd most mobile class.

DD ele is no more the 3rd most mobile profession (and never was).
The BOON duration nerf changed it.
First of all you forgot ranger and engi.

But also Mesmers will be able to flee thanks to any short stealth skill.

You can still stay in fight with necros and guardians (that will just laugh at DD and ignore it since you don t play zerker).

But since 90% of roamers are warriors, mesmers and thieves, that alone says a lot about the viability of the profession.

And As said mobility is not the only problem.
XvsX is another.