Guild Wars 2

Malchior.5732:

thetwothousand.5049:

Xillllix.3485:

thetwothousand.5049:

Leo G.4501:

It might be too easy to get the cast off, but it’d definitely sound like a Grandmaster trait (meaning the other 2 GMs would have to match its usefulness, hopefully). I wouldn’t mind a trait like one of the above posters that gave you stronger effects from casting the attunement’s spells as another GM trait that then makes you choose between stronger overloads, more reliable overloads and [some other option…more/faster overloads maybe?].

That’s what I like about the break bars. Anet can adjust how much punishment it takes,and they can also change the effects on a successful break. Look at revenant shield 5, once it breaks you are stunned for 2 seconds and have 25 stacks of vuln. That is a death sentence if you use it wrong.

The thing is, overloads don’t do anything the elementalist cant already do. So even if you make it so that overloads are not too hard to pull off, it’s just going to do what the ele can already do in another manner.

The elementalist need the overloads to do something new, like new boons and condi, example: revive allies on water overload instead of more cleanse and healing.

At the end of the day there are a finite amount of ways skills can work in a game. My biggest fear with what your asking in role dilution. How long until every class can do everything and theres no reason to have any diversity at all?

Beyond that somethings, like the water overload converting condis to boons, are useful, new, and probably doable before the game launches. Asking for brand new, custom effects is simply an unrealistic approach at this point. Tempest won’t bring a new role without redeveloping it, but the tools are still there to make old fresh air specs viable again, and put a new spin of classic d/d builds. This is all personal opinion of course, but at this point I just want Tempest to be something decent for HoT, and hope they don’t mess up our next spec so spectacularly.

That’s why they need to introduce new mechanics to the game.
They introduced Slow, Alacrity, Float, and now Reaper has a new minion with a mechanic from Gw1 called Dark Bond.

They can’t add stuff just for one specialization? Just in case someone thinks they can’t, I have a quote from the Chronomancer article when it talks about Alacrity: “Chronomancy is the only specialization allowed access to this powerful effect”
There’s simply no excuse. Yes, at this point it’s unlikely to get new things, but that doesn’t excuse the lack of thought that initially went into the Tempest.

It’s not that they can’t ever, its that at this stage it is probably kitten well near impossible. The fixes we saw to Chrono and Reaper were mostly numbers fixes. The example that you brought up about Reapers isn’t even that fresh. Mechanically we’ve known that a new minion was likely to happen since the Reaper PoI, and the damage reduction is a mechanic necro and mesmer both have.

Giving feedback that might actually happen, that will improve the spec and make it usable is more important to me right now than continually guilt tripping devs. There will be plenty of time for that before the next specializations launch when we can focus on why the Tempest flopped the way it did and what should be focused on for the next one.

They can’t add stuff just for one specialization? Just in case someone thinks they can’t, I have a quote from the Chronomancer article when it talks about Alacrity: “Chronomancy is the only specialization allowed access to this powerful effect”
There’s simply no excuse. Yes, at this point it’s unlikely to get new things, but that doesn’t excuse the lack of thought that initially went into the Tempest.

There’s nothing to prevent them adding an entirely new effect to Tempests, if it proves necessary, but doing so would take time, so it’s not something likely to make this, or even the next beta window.

I still think the Tempest is mostly a good thing though, it mostly works, they just need to work on making sure that each channel+overload combo has enough effect to make it worth using (which the BWE2 changes help to achieve), and that they strike the right balance with the channel between “tough to interrupt/punish” and “impossible to interrupt/punish,” because it should neither be easy to interrupt a Tempest’s overload, but nor should it be completely impossible.

If you just don’t like the basic Tempest concept, or you don’t like Warhorn as a weapon, well that’s just too bad, Tempest is the HoT launch Elite, and that’s what it will be. Hope that the next Elite spec for Eles will be more what you were looking for. No amount of complaining at this point will change anything on those fronts, but if you have constructive ideas about what that next elite spec should be, that can be useful.

thetwothousand.5049:

Malchior.5732:

thetwothousand.5049:

Xillllix.3485:

thetwothousand.5049:

Leo G.4501:

It might be too easy to get the cast off, but it’d definitely sound like a Grandmaster trait (meaning the other 2 GMs would have to match its usefulness, hopefully). I wouldn’t mind a trait like one of the above posters that gave you stronger effects from casting the attunement’s spells as another GM trait that then makes you choose between stronger overloads, more reliable overloads and [some other option…more/faster overloads maybe?].

That’s what I like about the break bars. Anet can adjust how much punishment it takes,and they can also change the effects on a successful break. Look at revenant shield 5, once it breaks you are stunned for 2 seconds and have 25 stacks of vuln. That is a death sentence if you use it wrong.

The thing is, overloads don’t do anything the elementalist cant already do. So even if you make it so that overloads are not too hard to pull off, it’s just going to do what the ele can already do in another manner.

The elementalist need the overloads to do something new, like new boons and condi, example: revive allies on water overload instead of more cleanse and healing.

At the end of the day there are a finite amount of ways skills can work in a game. My biggest fear with what your asking in role dilution. How long until every class can do everything and theres no reason to have any diversity at all?

Beyond that somethings, like the water overload converting condis to boons, are useful, new, and probably doable before the game launches. Asking for brand new, custom effects is simply an unrealistic approach at this point. Tempest won’t bring a new role without redeveloping it, but the tools are still there to make old fresh air specs viable again, and put a new spin of classic d/d builds. This is all personal opinion of course, but at this point I just want Tempest to be something decent for HoT, and hope they don’t mess up our next spec so spectacularly.

That’s why they need to introduce new mechanics to the game.
They introduced Slow, Alacrity, Float, and now Reaper has a new minion with a mechanic from Gw1 called Dark Bond.

They can’t add stuff just for one specialization? Just in case someone thinks they can’t, I have a quote from the Chronomancer article when it talks about Alacrity: “Chronomancy is the only specialization allowed access to this powerful effect”
There’s simply no excuse. Yes, at this point it’s unlikely to get new things, but that doesn’t excuse the lack of thought that initially went into the Tempest.

It’s not that they can’t ever, its that at this stage it is probably kitten well near impossible. The fixes we saw to Chrono and Reaper were mostly numbers fixes. The example that you brought up about Reapers isn’t even that fresh. Mechanically we’ve known that a new minion was likely to happen since the Reaper PoI, and the damage reduction is a mechanic necro and mesmer both have.

We knew they might change the minion to something else, not that we’d get a brand new one and the Dark Bond mechanic isn’t in either of the classes…
That wasn’t just a number fix.

Regardless, I gave suggestions a long time ago that were mostly just numbers, but would also change-up Overloads to not compete with D/D Cele Ele and be far more useful for Scepter/Staff Eles and a lot of other people gave suggestions too to tons of stuff. None of it was even considered it seems <—- Hence the guilting of the devs.

Do note: No one is asking for an instant mechanic change, but an acknowledgement of ANY mechanic change would calm down most people. The lack of any consideration is incredibly frustrating, especially for Elementalists who’ve been here for years.

Malchior.5732:

thetwothousand.5049:

Malchior.5732:

thetwothousand.5049:

Xillllix.3485:

thetwothousand.5049:

Leo G.4501:

It might be too easy to get the cast off, but it’d definitely sound like a Grandmaster trait (meaning the other 2 GMs would have to match its usefulness, hopefully). I wouldn’t mind a trait like one of the above posters that gave you stronger effects from casting the attunement’s spells as another GM trait that then makes you choose between stronger overloads, more reliable overloads and [some other option…more/faster overloads maybe?].

That’s what I like about the break bars. Anet can adjust how much punishment it takes,and they can also change the effects on a successful break. Look at revenant shield 5, once it breaks you are stunned for 2 seconds and have 25 stacks of vuln. That is a death sentence if you use it wrong.

The thing is, overloads don’t do anything the elementalist cant already do. So even if you make it so that overloads are not too hard to pull off, it’s just going to do what the ele can already do in another manner.

The elementalist need the overloads to do something new, like new boons and condi, example: revive allies on water overload instead of more cleanse and healing.

At the end of the day there are a finite amount of ways skills can work in a game. My biggest fear with what your asking in role dilution. How long until every class can do everything and theres no reason to have any diversity at all?

Beyond that somethings, like the water overload converting condis to boons, are useful, new, and probably doable before the game launches. Asking for brand new, custom effects is simply an unrealistic approach at this point. Tempest won’t bring a new role without redeveloping it, but the tools are still there to make old fresh air specs viable again, and put a new spin of classic d/d builds. This is all personal opinion of course, but at this point I just want Tempest to be something decent for HoT, and hope they don’t mess up our next spec so spectacularly.

That’s why they need to introduce new mechanics to the game.
They introduced Slow, Alacrity, Float, and now Reaper has a new minion with a mechanic from Gw1 called Dark Bond.

They can’t add stuff just for one specialization? Just in case someone thinks they can’t, I have a quote from the Chronomancer article when it talks about Alacrity: “Chronomancy is the only specialization allowed access to this powerful effect”
There’s simply no excuse. Yes, at this point it’s unlikely to get new things, but that doesn’t excuse the lack of thought that initially went into the Tempest.

It’s not that they can’t ever, its that at this stage it is probably kitten well near impossible. The fixes we saw to Chrono and Reaper were mostly numbers fixes. The example that you brought up about Reapers isn’t even that fresh. Mechanically we’ve known that a new minion was likely to happen since the Reaper PoI, and the damage reduction is a mechanic necro and mesmer both have.

We knew they might change the minion to something else, not that we’d get a brand new one and the Dark Bond mechanic isn’t in either of the classes…
That wasn’t just a number fix.

Regardless, I gave suggestions a long time ago that were mostly just numbers, but would also change-up Overloads to not compete with D/D Cele Ele and be far more useful for Scepter/Staff Eles and a lot of other people gave suggestions too to tons of stuff. None of it was even considered it seems <—- Hence the guilting of the devs.

Do note: No one is asking for an instant mechanic change, but an acknowledgement of ANY mechanic change would calm down most people. The lack of any consideration is incredibly frustrating, especially for Elementalists who’ve been here for years.

I was wrong that Necro doesn’t currently have a trait like dark bond, but it still functions exactly like mesmer’s Phantasmal Defender, meaning the tech was already in place to work with. And that’s my over all point in this argument.

I am not defending the current status of Tempest, I still think it needs a lot of work on the overloads, traits, and elite to be viable any where at all in the game. But asking for brand new mechanics or conditions or boons to be made now isn’t going to happen, and asking for it is silly. Looking at mechanics that have been partially implemented (break bars on attunements, some shouts missing auras) and traits that will expand its role and viability (damage mods and reduced casting times) are what should be the focus of discussion is what I am saying.

As a finale note I agree with you 100% that the way the BWE feedback results were communicated to us was done terribly. For what ever reason it seems Karl is out of the office atm, and until he is back any of the heavy duty changes that will need to occur are on hold. That is an understandable situation and if that had been communicated to us directly from the get go, instead of a list of number tweaks that were made to look like the sum of the taken feedback, about half the salt of this thread wouldn’t have happened.

We knew they might change the minion to something else, not that we’d get a brand new one and the Dark Bond mechanic isn’t in either of the classes…
That wasn’t just a number fix.

Yes, but it was also something that was likely already in the pipeline. There are also things that are likely in the pipeline for Tempest right this minute, but that aren’t at a point where they want to talk about them, much less toss them into the beta. Remember, ANet tends to be very cagey with things that they aren’t certain of yet.

Regardless, I gave suggestions a long time ago that were mostly just numbers, but would also change-up Overloads to not compete with D/D Cele Ele and be far more useful for Scepter/Staff Eles and a lot of other people gave suggestions too to tons of stuff. None of it was even considered it seems <—- Hence the guilting of the devs.

Maybe it wasn’t, or maybe they are working on it and it just isn’t ready yet, or maybe it was considered but they decided you were wrong, and they don’t want to do it the way you want them to do it. All of these are valid responses on their part. They do not owe it to you to explain exactly why they did not go along with your ideas.

Ganathar.4956:

Edit: Not to disregard your stability suggestion, it’s much better than what we have now. I simply can’t understand how overloads as a concept made sense for this profession. It is the squishiest class in terms of base stats and needs many active defences. Instead of doing something to address this for more build diversity, they came up with an idea that makes cantrips even more mandatory.

Actually, the elementalist has a surprising range of instant-cast utilities. Arcane skills are also all instant-cast (and if overload becomes a major source of damage, adding arcane skills to an overload spike could be scary). Glyph of Elemental Power and Signet of Air are instant cast, as are “Feel the Burn!” and “Eye of the Storm!”

If you’re running scepter, you can Lightning Strike and Lightning Flash while channeling Air. The weapon-based aura skills also all have instant casts. Some other weapon skills claim to in the tooltip, but clearly DO have casting times. :P

draxynnic.3719:

Ganathar.4956:

Edit: Not to disregard your stability suggestion, it’s much better than what we have now. I simply can’t understand how overloads as a concept made sense for this profession. It is the squishiest class in terms of base stats and needs many active defences. Instead of doing something to address this for more build diversity, they came up with an idea that makes cantrips even more mandatory.

Actually, the elementalist has a surprising range of instant-cast utilities. Arcane skills are also all instant-cast (and if overload becomes a major source of damage, adding arcane skills to an overload spike could be scary). Glyph of Elemental Power and Signet of Air are instant cast, as are “Feel the Burn!” and “Eye of the Storm!”

If you’re running scepter, you can Lightning Strike and Lightning Flash while channeling Air. The weapon-based aura skills also all have instant casts. Some other weapon skills claim to in the tooltip, but clearly DO have casting times. :P

The elementalist does not only rely on utilities for defence. It requires swapping into earth to minimize the opponent’s damage and swapping into water for the heals. Overloading locks you out of that while forcing you in melee. Anet tried to alleviate this with hardy conduit, but it does an incredibly bad job of replacing all of those lost defences.

Well how 2sec prot on 10sec cd could ever be enough to enable the squishiest class to survive ?
(10sec cause 5sec charge time then 5sec channeling, we’re assuming you want to complete your overload … which isn’t big as an assumption considering what overload are SUPPOSED to be)

Hardy conduit should be buffed to a tleast 5sec (and i tend to think 6 or maybe 7) …. and merged with minor adept trait but that’s another issue

thetwothousand.5049:

break bars.

Break bars on players are a bit silly IMO as they 100% overlap with the stability boon. Not a good design IMO.

Agree that overloads not being crap will largely make or break the spec, but there is also the argument that even with great overloads, Tempest fills the exact same role as existing D/D & D/F, and doesn’t synergise at all with either of the 2 existing ranged weapons, which is bad bad bad.

And i see its not to hard to adress it without changing the concept. Its a matter of doing it. Shure traits have to be changed, but not with totaly new stuff and a new rune can tweak it for more build diversity. I see with just a fistfull of tweaks tempest can be made a nice adition. Only cruncing numbers alone will not lead to build diversity.
Shure if you don´t like the concept/warhorn itself sorry, wait for next elite.

Breakbar is stronger than stability cause it’s unnafected by corruption.

Put one stab stack on fire water and air, let the breakbar on earth.

scerevisiae.1972:

and doesn’t synergise at all with either of the 2 existing ranged weapons, which is bad bad bad.

The problem with scepter is that nothing synergises with it (except a single trait – Fresh Air, and a single utility skill – Lightning Hammer). Scepter needs to be improved separately.

Staff is used as a close-combat weapon often in spvp/conquest, so it might work with the tempest spec eventually. Mid-range tempest staff might even become a thing in wvw.

Ganathar.4956:

The elementalist does not only rely on utilities for defence. It requires swapping into earth to minimize the opponent’s damage and swapping into water for the heals. Overloading locks you out of that while forcing you in melee. Anet tried to alleviate this with hardy conduit, but it does an incredibly bad job of replacing all of those lost defences.

Dagger/dagger has no defensive earth skills unless you count the knockdown of skill 4, so the main benefit you get is out of traits. Protection from Elemental Attunement is replaced by protection from Hardy Conduit (although I agree with Mattmatt that that protection should last for longer – possibly it should pulse protection every second that you channel), so mostly you’re looking at the earth magic traits. Some D/D elementalists already give up on those for more damage through Fire: certainly, any elite specialisation is going to require giving up on at least one of the defensive trifecta of Earth, Water, and Arcane. As traits currently stand, that’s probably most likely to be Earth that gets dropped.

For water… you’ll have to wait until you finish the overload until you can switch to the water heals. I think tempest is supposed to involve a risk/reward balance at some level, so if you think you can’t afford five seconds without water heals, then don’t overload, and if you think you can, then you can overload and then switch to water to heal up. Overload recharges are affected by Elemental Enchantment, so using a water overload is doubling the time until you can switch back into water, if you switch out immediately after the overload finishes. So in this case, using the water overload is essentially front-loading the healing: you get the overload effect at the cost of missing your next water cycle. It’s then up to the player whether this is worth it… if it is, it’s good to have, if not, don’t do it.

From the broader picture: Most of the overload damage is pretty much coming from Fire and Air overloads anyway, and if you have Arcane and Harmonious Conduit, you can come pretty close to switching from Fire to Air and back again and get maximum overloads. So earth and water can be kept in reserve.

Another consideration, and I’ve observed previously that ArenaNet may have done themselves a disservice here, is that I’m not sure that dagger is actually a good fit for a tempest. It feels to me that it actually works better with a scepter or staff, where you can use the overloads to have a melee presence for a short time and then take the opportunity to back off. Played this way, it doesn’t need to have quite the defences that a dagger/dagger ele, who IS stuck in melee, needs – it just needs to be able to survive to pull off overloads and then get out of the line of fire.

(Which is actually where those warhorn orbs can shine – the water one as a moving water field as you run away to recover for another pass, and the lightning orb to punish pursuit)

I personaly see overloads as an aditional utility not defining the class itself. So using it as finisher, escape or area denial tool maximum one per fight at the right moment.
also tempest seems better for staff and scepter as most say. It adds group support by usually forefiting personal survivability. and thus as a backline support staff user taking 2-3 shouts on you bar is very valid. For scepter its a bit hard, because scepter is usualy not so supportive. But for a support healing version S/WH would be my choice not D/WH. I will stay mid range just behind the “Frontline” and dish out heals, shouts + some area fire. I feel all the mainhand dagger for Tempest is misleading.
Try new builds. Enhancing D/D will fail, and it should.

the problem with tempest is that Ele can already do everuthing. Remove some possible builds from ele and see how Tempest becomes useful. Atm Ele and Mesmer need a nerf, period.

Kidel.2057:

the problem with tempest is that Ele can already do everuthing.

Yeah you right, i almost forgot that cele DD was decent at condi and could burst people with a very high mobility :x

Any chance that we get a look at additional changes today?

The Great Al.2546:

Any chance that we get a look at additional changes today?

I’d guess no, because they’re looking at more changes than what the Dragonhunter got today, and we already know how posting just a few tweaks on this forum turns out.

Alphard.6529:

The Great Al.2546:

Any chance that we get a look at additional changes today?

I’d guess no, because they’re looking at more changes than what the Dragonhunter got today, and we already know how posting just a few tweaks on this forum turns out.

It turned out well actually. They got to hear what everyone was thinking which is exactly what was needed. If they want Tempest to be a success it’s up to them now, they should know what to do with all the suggestions pretty much going in the same direction.

They do need to tell us they are redesigning the elite skill. That would calm down a lot of people.

Xillllix.3485:

Alphard.6529:

The Great Al.2546:

Any chance that we get a look at additional changes today?

I’d guess no, because they’re looking at more changes than what the Dragonhunter got today, and we already know how posting just a few tweaks on this forum turns out.

It turned out well actually. They got to hear what everyone was thinking which is exactly what was needed. If they want Tempest to be a success it’s up to them now, they should know what to do with all the suggestions pretty much going in the same direction.

They do need to tell us they are redesigning the elite skill. That would calm down a lot of people.

Yes, I think the DH feedback posted yesterday was a great step in the right direction.

Would really love to know how the devs are going to fix some of the traits, and of course the elite.

Ganathar.4956:

draxynnic.3719:

Ganathar.4956:

Edit: Not to disregard your stability suggestion, it’s much better than what we have now. I simply can’t understand how overloads as a concept made sense for this profession. It is the squishiest class in terms of base stats and needs many active defences. Instead of doing something to address this for more build diversity, they came up with an idea that makes cantrips even more mandatory.

Actually, the elementalist has a surprising range of instant-cast utilities. Arcane skills are also all instant-cast (and if overload becomes a major source of damage, adding arcane skills to an overload spike could be scary). Glyph of Elemental Power and Signet of Air are instant cast, as are “Feel the Burn!” and “Eye of the Storm!”

If you’re running scepter, you can Lightning Strike and Lightning Flash while channeling Air. The weapon-based aura skills also all have instant casts. Some other weapon skills claim to in the tooltip, but clearly DO have casting times. :P

The elementalist does not only rely on utilities for defence. It requires swapping into earth to minimize the opponent’s damage and swapping into water for the heals. Overloading locks you out of that while forcing you in melee. Anet tried to alleviate this with hardy conduit, but it does an incredibly bad job of replacing all of those lost defences.

You’re right, elementalist doesn’t only rely on utilities for defense.

It relies on a specific combination of utilities and traits for defense. Switching to earth does nothing if you don’t have elemental attunement.

Hello,

Not quite following the flow of the conversation here, but can we hope for a post like Dragonhunter’s that explains us what kind of things you want to look at (and, if you already know, from which angle you want to look at them) for the BWE3+ ? It’s really the kind of information I would have hoped to get in that thread in the first place. Hopefully, it will give us more to look at and talk about, and maybe reassure us on the different topics raised in this very subforum.

Thanks.

See the guy who designed the Warrior berserker mode understood: When using berserker mode you have 10% speed boost on your skills.

Tempest is just the opposite: When you activate the tempest overloads you get penalized with longer attunement cooldowns instead of shorter ones. On top of all the new skills barely doing any damage it doesn’t even buff our core mechanic.

This is why the core of the tempest design is being criticized so much. It’s not helping the class at what it does good when you master it (fast attunement swapping through many skills).

Xillllix.3485:

See the guy who designed the Warrior berserker mode understood: When using berserker mode you have 10% speed boost on your skills.

Tempest is just the opposite: When you activate the tempest overloads you get penalized with longer attunement cooldowns instead of shorter ones. On top of all the new skills barely doing any damage it doesn’t even buff our core mechanic.

This is why the core of the tempest design is being criticized so much. It’s not helping the class at what it does good when you master it (fast attunement swapping through many skills).

The original intent of the elites was that they would not be stronger than the base profession. Unfortunately with the warrior, mesmer, and necro, there are very clear situations where the elite is the obvious choice. Even for guardian, when you want to go ranged, you are going to pick DH. I still am not clear under what situations you’d want to use the Tempest.

Alphard.6529:

Staff is used as a close-combat weapon often in spvp/conquest, so it might work with the tempest spec eventually. Mid-range tempest staff might even become a thing in wvw.

Wat? You barely see any staff eles in sPvP and when you do they are mostly ineffective.

The Great Al.2546:

The original intent of the elites was that they would not be stronger than the base profession. Unfortunately with the warrior, mesmer, and necro, there are very clear situations where the elite is the obvious choice.

This is how it should be though. Elite specs should be clearly better than the base class at something. What they shouldn’t be is better than the base class at most things or everything, because then you will always use elites and never the base. They also shouldn’t be clearly worse at everything than the base class either, because then you will never use the elite spec. This is the current state of tempest; there is no build you can make for tempest that would not be improved by not taking tempest.

Coldtart.4785:

The Great Al.2546:

The original intent of the elites was that they would not be stronger than the base profession. Unfortunately with the warrior, mesmer, and necro, there are very clear situations where the elite is the obvious choice.

This is how it should be though. Elite specs should be clearly better than the base class at something. What they shouldn’t be is better than the base class at most things or everything, because then you will always use elites and never the base. They also shouldn’t be clearly worse at everything than the base class either, because then you will never use the elite spec. This is the current state of tempest; there is no build you can make for tempest that would not be improved by not taking tempest.

I agree with you, which is why melee group support just inherently didn’t make sense, and why the elite spec was supposed to be about bringing a new role.

morrolan.9608:

Wat? You barely see any staff eles in sPvP and when you do they are mostly ineffective.

Even some top teams have a staff ele in the weekly tournaments occasionally, so they’re good, just not super popular. There’s a meta build for spvp: http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Elementalist_-_Celestial_Staff

The Great Al.2546:

I agree with you, which is why melee group support just inherently didn’t make sense

It inherently doesn’t make sense? What? The best support build currently is not even d/d, it’s the staff build, the tempest needs to compete with that. Since staff is a ranged weapon, a melee support spec would be nice. They just need to improve the warhorn and the overloads.

Alphard.6529:

morrolan.9608:

Wat? You barely see any staff eles in sPvP and when you do they are mostly ineffective.

Even some top teams have a staff ele in the weekly tournaments occasionally, so they’re good, just not super popular. There’s a meta build for spvp: http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Elementalist_-_Celestial_Staff

The Great Al.2546:

I agree with you, which is why melee group support just inherently didn’t make sense

It inherently doesn’t make sense? What? The best support build currently is not even d/d, it’s the staff build, the tempest needs to compete with that. Since staff is a ranged weapon, a melee support spec would be nice. They just need to improve the warhorn and the overloads.

What can tempest do that D/D can’t?

The Great Al.2546:

What can tempest do that D/D can’t?

Tempest does better party support.

Let’s say we take the following trait lines: Water/Arcana/Tempest. Water and Arcana already have all the party support that d/d provides via the trait lines. Offhand dagger provides nothing that warhorn doesn’t provide in terms of party support (fire field, blast finisher, 2 CCs), but warhorn has a lot more (2 boon sharing skills, blind field, party-wide swiftness, water field). Depending on what they do with the overloads, it will have even more.

Alphard.6529:

The Great Al.2546:

What can tempest do that D/D can’t?

Let’s say we take the following trait lines: Water/Arcana/Tempest. Water and Arcana already have all the party support that d/d provides via the trait lines. Offhand dagger provides nothing that warhorn doesn’t provide in terms of party support (fire field, blast finisher, 2 CCs), but warhorn has a lot more (2 boon sharing skills, blind field, party-wide swiftness, water field). Depending on what they do with the overloads, it will have even more.

I don’t see warhorn being used in anything else than pvp.
Personally I want to see tempest working with staff as well as warhorn.

Look at the new Berserker F-skills, Reaper shroud, or Chronomancer. All these new professions work well with all their weapon choice. Why would a staff elementalist choose to camp in an attunement and use a close-range overload? Makes absolutely no sense.

Xillllix.3485:

Why would a staff elementalist choose to camp in an attunement and use a close-range overload? Makes absolutely no sense.

Well given that both in spvp and in pve (dungeons at least, and sometimes in the open world) staff is used as a close range weapon.. why not?

Alphard.6529:

Xillllix.3485:

Why would a staff elementalist choose to camp in an attunement and use a close-range overload? Makes absolutely no sense.

Well given that both in spvp and in pve (dungeons at least, and sometimes in the open world) staff is used as a close range weapon.. why not?

Because it’s not used as a 180 range weapon in spvp? It’s used near enemies, but not at melee range necessarily. Then there’s the fact that you need to actually cast Fire Overload…

Malchior.5732:

Because it’s not used as a 180 range weapon in spvp? It’s used near enemies, but not at melee range necessarily. Then there’s the fact that you need to actually cast Fire Overload…

Well the overload effects extend to 360 range, no? If you’re fighting on a point, this will cover a lot of it.

Alphard.6529:

Malchior.5732:

Because it’s not used as a 180 range weapon in spvp? It’s used near enemies, but not at melee range necessarily. Then there’s the fact that you need to actually cast Fire Overload…

Well the overload effects extend to 360 range, no? If you’re fighting on a point, this will cover a lot of it.

lol until a mesmer arrives and presses 1 button.

Alphard.6529:

Malchior.5732:

Because it’s not used as a 180 range weapon in spvp? It’s used near enemies, but not at melee range necessarily. Then there’s the fact that you need to actually cast Fire Overload…

Well the overload effects extend to 360 range, no? If you’re fighting on a point, this will cover a lot of it.

Uhh, they don’t? Air Overload got increased to 360 radius. Still the most worthless one. Fire Overload is still 180 radius.

Xillllix.3485:

Alphard.6529:

The Great Al.2546:

What can tempest do that D/D can’t?

Let’s say we take the following trait lines: Water/Arcana/Tempest. Water and Arcana already have all the party support that d/d provides via the trait lines. Offhand dagger provides nothing that warhorn doesn’t provide in terms of party support (fire field, blast finisher, 2 CCs), but warhorn has a lot more (2 boon sharing skills, blind field, party-wide swiftness, water field). Depending on what they do with the overloads, it will have even more.

I don’t see warhorn being used in anything else than pvp.
Personally I want to see tempest working with staff as well as warhorn.

Look at the new Berserker F-skills, Reaper shroud, or Chronomancer. All these new professions work well with all their weapon choice. Why would a staff elementalist choose to camp in an attunement and use a close-range overload? Makes absolutely no sense.

Not gonna use warhorn in pvp either [in it’s current state] because it lacks the raw defense of focus and the mobility and hard CC that offhand dagger has.

Alphard.6529:

Xillllix.3485:

Why would a staff elementalist choose to camp in an attunement and use a close-range overload? Makes absolutely no sense.

Well given that both in spvp and in pve (dungeons at least, and sometimes in the open world) staff is used as a close range weapon.. why not?

Staff is not a close range weapon unless you’re playing it badly. Staff + Tempest makes no sense at all.

scerevisiae.1972:

Staff is not a close range weapon unless you’re playing it badly. Staff + Tempest makes no sense at all.

How is fighting on a point in spvp not close range? The spvp meta cele staff build (the only meta staff build) is used for holding/supporting points. And in dungeons/fractals staff is 95% a close range weapon (and 99%-100% in good groups).

The Great Al.2546:

What can tempest do that D/D can’t?

Use a weapon other than dagger as their primary weapon, thereby allowing them to use overloads for close-range damage and/or support while maintaining a standoff capability as well.

This is why I think ArenaNet shot themselves in the foot when they presented it as something for dagger elementalists. The D/D elementalist is tuned to be at close range all of the time. Overloads allow for a built where you can participate from range most of the time, but have the opportunity to charge in, overload, and then back out again if the tactical situation warrants it.

Alphard.6529:

scerevisiae.1972:

Staff is not a close range weapon unless you’re playing it badly. Staff + Tempest makes no sense at all.

How is fighting on a point in spvp not close range? The spvp meta cele staff build (the only meta staff build) is used for holding/supporting points. And in dungeons/fractals staff is 95% a close range weapon (and 99%-100% in good groups).

The rare time I see staff ele in spvp they are almost always off the point on a vantage point where they can use their range safely.

THIS is a decent elite. It completely fits the theme. -_-

@Off
Btw, now that I see this dev’s (Irenio) profile in LinkedIn… he’s intermediary level in portuguese. lol

Cyan.6904:

morrolan.9608:

Cyan.6904:

It’s a start. My guess is that more will follow, on every aspect.

But some people really have some attitude problems here. Time constraints doesn’t mean Devs don’t care about an elite spec and don’t want to spend any time to work on it. There are countless things that can effect the amount of work the Devs can deliver. It is a shame that the standard reaction seems to be: “I don’t see the changes I wanted, so Anet doesn’t care.”

Thats not actually the reaction, the reaction is they have ignored most of the feedback and are actually making false statements such as the overload concept has been well received.

And how is that a false statement? How do you know that there weren’t any reaction about how people enjoyed overloads? Because there are more negative posts on the forum than positive ones? With the same users posting over and over again?
There are so many ways to make opinions known. Mail, social media, direct messaging, in game, written letters if you want to be fancy. All possible, even if Anet prefers the forums to get feedback.

Cyan, you are the best.
I will say that, I tried to run Tempest, but it was difficult. Nvrtheless, I know that the devs are on time constraints the expansion comes out in about 4 months, and ppl say scrap tempest, warhorn, ext, and I will say i’be nvr said I liked Tempest, and nvr said anything about a numbers issue, and I think the fact is the people that think this don’t realize the programing involved in the line, make a completely new line would take months. As for the reason for no really positive feedback I think it mainly because of these stupid (not the word I want to use) people that criticize any1 who might have a positive opinion about tempest, and I thunk that these are not all the changes that it gotten or will get. While I tried to give some positive persective opinion on how the traits could be better some people just tore it up. And why do people have to be so horrible to the devs, been so horrible to people doesn’t provide fruitful results, on the contrary it enhibits results.

Thx again Cyan

morrolan.9608:

The rare time I see staff ele in spvp they are almost always off the point on a vantage point where they can use their range safely.

Nope, cele staff stays on a point 95% of the time. This is the purpose of the build – point holder/support. Watch some weekly tournament vods or high ranked streamers to see how they use it.

Alphard.6529:

morrolan.9608:

The rare time I see staff ele in spvp they are almost always off the point on a vantage point where they can use their range safely.

Nope, cele staff stays on a point 95% of the time. This is the purpose of the build – point holder/support. Watch some weekly tournament vods or high ranked streamers to see how they use it.

OK I have, yes it can be done but its sub-optimal, has a high skill cap hence why its not seen very often and it still requires constant attunement switching, which again counts tempest out.

Just throwing more dmg at tempest realty seems like a very bad way of “fixing” things. The blast is a good start but when war elite spec gets an effectually nado field that keeps with them (mind you its a fire field not an lighting field) seems like some one is realty missing they point of ele / tempest as a class.

Could there by any thing like a field that keeps on the tempest as they are overloading? It dose not seem like that big of a request. Maybe the ideal of earth not having a field type yet is getting in the way. But i think it would go a long way to help tempest be a true support class to have it crate fields of an element type during there overload preferably the same element type as the overload it self.

The actual problem with fire tornado getting a fire field might be because it’s already a whirl finisher, and thus it might finish with itself…

…mind you, while that may be the reasoning, it would also probably be quite a bit cooler than just upping the damage.

draxynnic.3719:

The actual problem with fire tornado getting a fire field might be because it’s already a whirl finisher, and thus it might finish with itself…

…mind you, while that may be the reasoning, it would also probably be quite a bit cooler than just upping the damage.

But they really need to improve whirl and projectile finisher…

Most players put very little value in them. Leap finishers have their uses but tend to be on movement skills which also tend to be regulated with cooldowns so you can zip everywhere…

Valid point. Whirl finisher has generally been something that is nice when it happens, not really something that you go out of your way to make happen.

Jski.6180:

Just throwing more dmg at tempest realty seems like a very bad way of “fixing” things. The blast is a good start but when war elite spec gets an effectually nado field that keeps with them (mind you its a fire field not an lighting field) seems like some one is realty missing they point of ele / tempest as a class.

Could there by any thing like a field that keeps on the tempest as they are overloading? It dose not seem like that big of a request. Maybe the ideal of earth not having a field type yet is getting in the way. But i think it would go a long way to help tempest be a true support class to have it crate fields of an element type during there overload preferably the same element type as the overload it self.

Even if they doubled the damage, a warrior in berserker mode or rampage will still beat a Tempest elementalist facerolling on his keyboard. The fact that they gave the heaviest class more mobility and absolutely no mobility for the squishiest class just shows how badly balanced these elite profession are. We all agree here: the overloads should not stop you from doing other things (using skills, swapping attunements, dodging), the chanelling should be shorter if any at all, and you shouldn’t have to camp an attunement to get them.

Tempest needed both mobility, range and AoE damage/cc. It got none of both these things and even worse, it puts you in a very difficult situation, against shatter mesmers who can burst you from stealth for 15k dps, and rampage warrior who can hit you for 9k with Maurauder gear while being tankier. Basically it’s not usable in any sort of competitive context at all, it was either in pre-beta state or is really badly conceived.

Edit: And the new warrior elite is on a 20 second cooldown… facepalm