Dungeon usefulness list

Dungeon usefulness list

in Engineer

Posted by: Singer.8740

Singer.8740

“Id have to say your list here is quite off for a few reasons
1) ele if using fiery rush from FGS #4 without a target and FGS#3 plus LH when on cooldown they will likely be the highest dps in your party by quite a margin, not to mention their ability to stack 25 might for the group and perma fury I think they deserve #1or 2 spot.”

so you think that an ability on a 3 min cooldown jumps you to number one DPS meter and that you can stack might gives you more utility than the guy who does that passive while stacking vuln, cleansing, healing, DPSing, CCing and carrying stealth……you under stand there is a reason warrior is no 1 on the majority of the player base list and the ele and engie comparison is laughable at best. Speeking of warrior this brings me to my next point.

“2) warrior brings quite a lot of utility to the group actually using GS,A/M banners and able to stack somewhere between 18-22stacks of vulnerability on their own for a short time, also able to create fire fields(wouldn’t suggest it but still there and able to blast them), also if using soldier runes can cleanse about the same number of conditions as the engineer (with a different build from the one above that would be using banners and “on my mark”) also can take trait empower allies for more power for the group”

… i dont even know were to start wiht this one. what your saying is a warrior that brings a banner is UTILITY…thats just DPS min/max i believe you are a bit confused about the meaning of utility. Now Shout cleanse THAT is utility. Shame only idiots would give up a set of Ruby orbs/ Divinity runes/ insert power rune here >< for them outside WvW. and ye three warriors can get get 18 to 22 stacks of vuln for a short time on a single target. why/ how your comparing that to ONE engies aoe vuln stacking is beyond me.

point three:
“3) I feel that you are selling rangers a bit short as they can provide ok vunerability, stone spirit for protection, frost spirit for extra damage, spirit of nature for a group res, and I believe the longest lasting water field through their healing spring, and condition cleanse, they can also bring might and fury stacking to the party through their pets and warhorn. "

Spirits and spotter trait as before. water field overwrites fire field and only supplies regen and cleanse unless blasted so is hence disqualified as a sound choice. you were joking about the might stacking right….

“5) thieves can also provide some good defiant removal(if that’s what you want), can also provide, can give party members might fury swiftness and vigor (through steal skill)” Number of bosses were boon steal is important…….Champ karka………champ karka…….and……champ karka. stick to the stabby stabby thank you.

so once again can you please make a VALID argument as to which classes can offer more DPS than the warrior and more DPS/Utility than the guardian/ engineer to unseat them from there 1. 2. and 3. slots respectively becaue i still dont see any classes that match these three for usefulness.

Etheeria (The mad bomber). If you don’t have shellshock your not doing it right.

(edited by Singer.8740)

Dungeon usefulness list

in Engineer

Posted by: lunyboy.8672

lunyboy.8672

Please show me how many classes actually contribute to #1-6 as I listed equally as well as an Engineer can.

Please show me how many classes can give 15 stacks of Might, 15 seconds of Stealth, a ton of Vulnerability, condition removal, and a Water field all under one build.

I just can’t fathom how you can establish that Engineers do in one slot what it takes 2-3 classes to achieve and say we’re at the bottom of the totem pole. That just makes absolutely zero sense to me.

You guys obsess over what the ideal setup is when you fail to recognize that taking an Engineer fills any hole in the group regardless of what the other 4 players build themselves around. I consider that the ideal class to play. But I guess I’m alone in that.

Missing the point by a mile here.

Just for the record, I have 1000 hours on my engineer so far, and every class at level 80 so I’ve had plenty of experience with them all.

Engineers can provide a bit of everything, great.

But why is that needed? It isn’t. Dungeons are done with a full group, the entire group should be contributing to fulfilling these roles. Maybe an ele can do the might stacks, guardians the reflects and condition removal, mesmers can help there too, and 25 vuln can be achieved as a sum of the entire party, only single class doesn’t need to cap it.

Plus while all of these things might be accessible in one build, you certainly can’t do it at once. If you want to stack might you have to carry out an akward combo, during which you aren’t dpsing. If you want reflects, you’re probably going to have to drop a blast finisher in order to get elixir U.

Engineer is versatile yeah but I wouldn’t say they outshine other classes in each specific area, just that they can do all of them.

I have 2k hours on my engineer, and run with Infamous. ^This guy’s got it right. Just because an engineer CAN do all those things across various builds and skills, doesn’t mean he can do that and output those mystical 8k auto attacks from the bomb kit.

Believe me. I’ve tried.

Building synergy with the rest of the group is easier for certain professions, the sooner we all agree on that and admit we are happier playing engineer than say, playing Guardian, the sooner we can all agree Engies need PvE buffs.

Period.

With an objective look at the profession, we could provide Anet devs unbiased feedback about “balance” and changes they make while trying to explain what we want out of the profession.

Like I said before, I typically don’t agree with Spoj about things, but despite what you may think about his posts, he has been politely disagreeing and countering the points made here without bias. And he is correct.

Miss Fisthammer – Engineer | Urgard Fistorsen – Guardian
Physti – Elementalist | Fistful of Blades – Thief
[WHIP] Quaggan Slavers – HoD

Dungeon usefulness list

in Engineer

Posted by: Singer.8740

Singer.8740

This does not change the fact that if you bring an engineer to a dungeon everyone else can consentrate on min/maxing there DPS cuz that one guy can supply all the utility and still put out those how did you put it “mystical” auto attacks. (just apply zerk and smart trait choices its not rocket sience.)

Engineers dont need PvE buffs what we need is QOL fixes, a rework of traits to do with gadgets and turrets and condi Cleansing that is NOT in the alchemy tree.

Edit; i have close to 4k hours logged on my engineer alone since were playing the measuring game :/

Etheeria (The mad bomber). If you don’t have shellshock your not doing it right.

(edited by Singer.8740)

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Posted by: Phineas Poe.3018

Phineas Poe.3018

25 vuln can be achieved as a sum of the entire party

I think this could be said in direct response to what you just wrote. Who cares if S/D Elementalists can stack 25 Might by themselves? There’s 5 people to a party. The specificity of roles is absolutely not necessary.

Plus while all of these things might be accessible in one build, you certainly can’t do it at once.

The same could be said of any class. The point is that the Engineer has the potential to fill whatever hole you have in your group so that you can bolster the “sum” of efforts across your party.

If you want to stack might you have to carry out an awkward combo, during which you aren’t dpsing.

Is it awkward? Acid Bomb is an integral blast finisher to my Might stacking rotation for both the Flamethrower and the Bomb Kit. It does tens of thousands of damage. I am most certainly DPSing with my Might rotation, as last I checked Throw Mine, Big Ol’ Bomb, Fire Bomb, and Supply Crate all contribute to dealing damage. The only ones that don’t are Magnetic Inversion and Healing Turret, which I usually save for other things like healing myself or Area Stealth when I pull aggro.

If you want reflects, you’re probably going to have to drop a blast finisher in order to get elixir U.

Again, couldn’t the same be said of other classes? A Guardian has to drop a utility for Wall of Reflection. I am constantly swapping utilities on him, and my Warrior. That’s just being smart.

Engineer is versatile yeah but I wouldn’t say they outshine other classes in each specific area, just that they can do all of them.

That is what “versatile” means.

[EG] Ethereal Guardians

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in Engineer

Posted by: lunyboy.8672

lunyboy.8672

snip

Engineers dont need PvE buffs what we need is QOL fixes, a rework of traits to do with gadgets and turrets and condi Cleansing that is NOT in the alchemy tree.

Edit; i have close to 4k hours logged on my engineer alone since were playing the measuring game :/

And you wouldn’t consider those things “buffs” in relation to the engineer’s current status?

Really?

Miss Fisthammer – Engineer | Urgard Fistorsen – Guardian
Physti – Elementalist | Fistful of Blades – Thief
[WHIP] Quaggan Slavers – HoD

Dungeon usefulness list

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Posted by: lunyboy.8672

lunyboy.8672

I think this could be said in direct response to what you just wrote. Who cares if S/D Elementalists can stack 25 Might by themselves? There’s 5 people to a party. The specificity of roles is absolutely not necessary.

Absolutely, you can mix and match all you like, but the point trying to be made is, other professions have access to these various utilities easier without having an engineer in the party.

Playing Engineer is not easy, and getting big numbers is even more difficult than with most other professions, so where you might choose an average player on Warrior or Guardian, you have to be looking for the 1% on Engineer to get the same quality of play due primarily to the shortcomings in the profession.

Miss Fisthammer – Engineer | Urgard Fistorsen – Guardian
Physti – Elementalist | Fistful of Blades – Thief
[WHIP] Quaggan Slavers – HoD

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Posted by: coglin.1867

coglin.1867

The point trying to be made is, other professions have access to these various utilities easier without having an engineer in the party.

Okay, Let us put it to the test. Take the 6 areas of group benefit everyone has focused on and tell us how other professions do it better.

1. Area Might
2. Vulnerability
3. Projectile walls/reflects
4. Condition removal
5. Stability
6. Area Stealth (for skipping)

I think we can all agree that you can skip #6 though. That one is kind of no contest.

A video on what weak PvPer’s and WvWer’s want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c

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Posted by: Phineas Poe.3018

Phineas Poe.3018

I have 2k hours on my engineer, and run with Infamous.

Cool story, bro?

This guy’s got it right. Just because an engineer CAN do all those things across various builds and skills, doesn’t mean he can do that and output those mystical 8k auto attacks from the bomb kit.

Believe me. I’ve tried.

I can do all of these things with one build. It only takes swapping out a couple utilities for a certain situation. I hope you don’t take this too personally, but just because you can’t do something, that doesn’t mean others can’t either.

I’ve written two guides to how I play my Engineer and get the results exactly to what I claim the Flamethrower and the Bomb Kit can do. I think I’ve been pretty transparent about this.

And with a pure glass cannon, full Zerker setup, you can get 8K auto-attacks. There’s nothing mythical about it. Rozbuska wrote a thread about it, even though the setup has been around quite a long time.

[EG] Ethereal Guardians

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

Now im worried. You’re advocating using the flamethrower?

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Posted by: Dustfinger.9510

Dustfinger.9510

Now im worried. You’re advocating using the flamethrower?

As long as it’s getting the intended job done.

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Posted by: Infamous Darkness.3284

Infamous Darkness.3284

“Id have to say your list here is quite off for a few reasons
1) ele if using fiery rush from FGS #4 without a target and FGS#3 plus LH when on cooldown they will likely be the highest dps in your party by quite a margin, not to mention their ability to stack 25 might for the group and perma fury I think they deserve #1or 2 spot.”

so you think that an ability on a 3 min cooldown jumps you to number one DPS meter and that you can stack might gives you more utility than the guy who does that passive while stacking vuln, cleansing, healing, DPSing, CCing and carrying stealth……you under stand there is a reason warrior is no 1 on the majority of the player base list and the ele and engie comparison is laughable at best. Speeking of warrior this brings me to my next point.

“2) warrior brings quite a lot of utility to the group actually using GS,A/M banners and able to stack somewhere between 18-22stacks of vulnerability on their own for a short time, also able to create fire fields(wouldn’t suggest it but still there and able to blast them), also if using soldier runes can cleanse about the same number of conditions as the engineer (with a different build from the one above that would be using banners and “on my mark”) also can take trait empower allies for more power for the group”

… i dont even know were to start wiht this one. what your saying is a warrior that brings a banner is UTILITY…thats just DPS min/max i believe you are a bit confused about the meaning of utility. Now Shout cleanse THAT is utility. Shame only idiots would give up a set of Ruby orbs/ Divinity runes/ insert power rune here >< for them outside WvW. and ye three warriors can get get 18 to 22 stacks of vuln for a short time on a single target. why/ how your comparing that to ONE engies aoe vuln stacking is beyond me.

point three:
“3) I feel that you are selling rangers a bit short as they can provide ok vunerability, stone spirit for protection, frost spirit for extra damage, spirit of nature for a group res, and I believe the longest lasting water field through their healing spring, and condition cleanse, they can also bring might and fury stacking to the party through their pets and warhorn. "

Spirits and spotter trait as before. water field overwrites fire field and only supplies regen and cleanse unless blasted so is hence disqualified as a sound choice. you were joking about the might stacking right….

“5) thieves can also provide some good defiant removal(if that’s what you want), can also provide, can give party members might fury swiftness and vigor (through steal skill)” Number of bosses were boon steal is important…….Champ karka………champ karka…….and……champ karka. stick to the stabby stabby thank you.

1) first your #1 point when traited elemental conjures have 25 charges and each one lasts a min, so you could potentially summon one use all of its charges and then pick up the second one 1 second before it disappears for a 66%~ uptime on FGS, and second I included other conjures in there such as the LH for just those times when you don’t have a FGS available.

2) you go on to say warrior banners aren’t utility, while two are for damage(3 if you count the elite) 2 are for utility and defense, extra healing power, boon duration, vitality and toughness. second 1 warrior by itself can get up to 22 stacks of vulnerability as a said for a short time here you go here is the rotation (A/M cyclone axe,crushing blow, on my mark, and then back to cyclone axe as soon as its off cooldown 4+4+10+4=22stacks of vunerability)

3) no I was not joking about the might stacking sure they aren’t the best at it but here are some ways they can stack might, pet juvenille jungle stalker, war horn 5 if in a fire field it is 4 stacks of might. meaning that they could provide 9 stacks of might for the group

4[I think])once you have 25 stacks of might it can be nice to blast the water field for extra group healing which is utility

5)just because you would like thieves to stick to the “stabby stabby” doesn’t mean they don’t have other uses to the group like boon stealing for say the golem in CoE removing retaliation, protection, regeneration, I don’t remember its 4th buff. and also easy access to blast finishers through their shortbow 2 skill

Please fully read and understand the post before defaming it as invalid

Infamous Culverin(engi[Main]), one of every other class.
Karl Marx: “Go away! Last words are for fools who haven’t said enough!”

(edited by Infamous Darkness.3284)

Dungeon usefulness list

in Engineer

Posted by: Infamous Darkness.3284

Infamous Darkness.3284

The point trying to be made is, other professions have access to these various utilities easier without having an engineer in the party.

Okay, Let us put it to the test. Take the 6 areas of group benefit everyone has focused on and tell us how other professions do it better.

1. Area Might
2. Vulnerability
3. Projectile walls/reflects
4. Condition removal
5. Stability
6. Area Stealth (for skipping)

I think we can all agree that you can skip #6 though. That one is kind of no contest.

I notice you still left out #7 group fury

I have already shown you where I think other professions can do each one better the only one engineers have is #2 vulnerability, and debatably group condition removal which upon further investigation I think is off from guardian with purging flames and save yourselves, I don’t know if pure of voice stacks with soldier runes for 2 conditions removed per shout, cleansing flame, ray of judgement, purifiying blast, bow of truth, or possibly necros with putrid mark, well of power and plague signet(personally think engis might be better then necros on this one but debateable).

I still don’t understand how you see toss elixir b as anywhere near the stability a guardian can put out for example toss elixir B with 30 points in tools and 100% boon duration would give something like 8 seconds of stability on a 21~ second recharge possibly 2 extra seconds from rumble while guardians have under similar situation stand your ground 10 seconds of stability on a 25 second recharge, and hallowed ground(I could be wrong about how this skill would work with 100% boon duration and master of consecrations, if so please correct me) 24 seconds of stability on a 64 second recharge meaning a guardian could have a 77.5% uptime on stability with 44 seconds of unstopped stability while engineer at best has about 50% stability uptime with 10 seconds of uninterrupted stability

Infamous Culverin(engi[Main]), one of every other class.
Karl Marx: “Go away! Last words are for fools who haven’t said enough!”

(edited by Infamous Darkness.3284)

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Posted by: blurps.2340

blurps.2340

Engineers can provide a bit of everything, great.

But why is that needed? It isn’t.

Yup, right on the money.

I could certainly come up with some highly hypothetical scenario in which my group would require a little bit of this and a little bit of that all the time.

I’d rather stick to the content we have when evaluating classes though. In that content, being a jack of all trades isn’t much of a useful quality.

Yes, a competent Engineer can be a valuable group member, but that’s not what we’re talking about here.

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Posted by: lunyboy.8672

lunyboy.8672

Cool story, bro?

He runs his engineer, glass cannon, and we have discussed the shortcomings at length, since I have also run my engineer in dungeons with Roz’s spec. We are both acutely aware of an engineer’s limitations.

I can do all of these things with one build. It only takes swapping out a couple utilities for a certain situation. I hope you don’t take this too personally, but just because you can’t do something, that doesn’t mean others can’t either.

I’ve written two guides to how I play my Engineer and get the results exactly to what I claim the Flamethrower and the Bomb Kit can do. I think I’ve been pretty transparent about this.

And with a pure glass cannon, full Zerker setup, you can get 8K auto-attacks. There’s nothing mythical about it. Rozbuska wrote a thread about it, even though the setup has been around quite a long time.

I’ve read it, and the results are not repeatable most dungeons, as I said, the highest bomb auto I have found has been ~6k. And I am not saying it can’t be done under certain circumstances, but they are the exception and not the rule. Nor am I saying that I am a top-notch pro engineer, obviously, if I re-rolled several other toons to make dungeons both more fun and easier to blast through, then I must have been doing it wrong the whole time.

But to be frank, your claiming that the Flamethrower is good for anything other than a torch for dark jumping puzzles or a utility kit that helps you die from retaliation is misguided at best, and leads me to take the rest of your comments with a very large grain of salt.

Miss Fisthammer – Engineer | Urgard Fistorsen – Guardian
Physti – Elementalist | Fistful of Blades – Thief
[WHIP] Quaggan Slavers – HoD

Dungeon usefulness list

in Engineer

Posted by: Singer.8740

Singer.8740

The point trying to be made is, other professions have access to these various utilities easier without having an engineer in the party.

Okay, Let us put it to the test. Take the 6 areas of group benefit everyone has focused on and tell us how other professions do it better.

1. Area Might
2. Vulnerability
3. Projectile walls/reflects
4. Condition removal
5. Stability
6. Area Stealth (for skipping)

I think we can all agree that you can skip #6 though. That one is kind of no contest.

I notice you still left out #7 group fury

I have already shown you where I think other professions can do each one better the only one engineers have is #2 vulnerability, and debatably group condition removal which upon further investigation I think is off from guardian with purging flames and save yourselves, I don’t know if pure of voice stacks with soldier runes for 2 conditions removed per shout, cleansing flame, ray of judgement, purifiying blast, bow of truth, or possibly necros with putrid mark, well of power and plague signet(personally think engis might be better then necros on this one but debateable).

I still don’t understand how you see toss elixir b as anywhere near the stability a guardian can put out for example toss elixir B with 30 points in tools and 100% boon duration would give something like 8 seconds of stability on a 21~ second recharge possibly 2 extra seconds from rumble while guardians have under similar situation stand your ground 10 seconds of stability on a 25 second recharge, and hallowed ground(I could be wrong about how this skill would work with 100% boon duration and master of consecrations, if so please correct me) 24 seconds of stability on a 64 second recharge meaning a guardian could have a 77.5% uptime on stability with 44 seconds of unstopped stability while engineer at best has about 50% stability uptime with 10 seconds of uninterrupted stability

please take a look at this build.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQFAUl0pqb3zSeF1LJyYGkWnBqAgJWwnHyVb9gA-jADBYfBhgAhEBI5pIasFhhtyJalOBRXDT5iIq2eDzgbR12dASBYiyI-e

this is an example of an engineer build that;

1. gives 9 stacks might to the party just from switching to med kit every 10 secs. combined with the fire field everyone is on 25 stacks of might without you breaking dps rotation.
2. 22-25 stacks of vulnerability
3. reflect (see comment below)
4. condition removal
5. group stability. (see comment below)
6. swap med kit, EG and Elixer U for healing turret, thumper and flame turret. (15 secs of stealth for skipping) Then swap back.

Elixer U is a flexible utility this slot can be filled with whatever you need for the situation with no detriment to the build at all, need a push or pull done. need more cleanse done. need stability done. whatever you need you can have it.
you cant beat hallowed ground for stability and the condi cleanse on a guard is through the roof not to mention guards have reflect in buckets. Its for these reasons that guard holds the number 2 spot on my list. Lastly the perma fury thing is not needed cuz warriors give us that just from banners/ shouting.

As such my list for dungeon usefulness still stands at;

1. war
2.guard
3.engie
4.ele
5.mes
6.ranger
7.theif
8.necro

EDIT; Forgot to mention that Poe is completely right, my build here has 4828 atk. I get around 7k auto as a matter of course and thats because i choose to might up my team. If i was selfish and took power/crit runes like scholar it would be higher. its pretty easy to get high DPS on an engineer if you know what your doing.

Etheeria (The mad bomber). If you don’t have shellshock your not doing it right.

(edited by Singer.8740)

Dungeon usefulness list

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Posted by: Phineas Poe.3018

Phineas Poe.3018

But to be frank, your claiming that the Flamethrower is good for anything other than a torch for dark jumping puzzles or a utility kit that helps you die from retaliation is misguided at best, and leads me to take the rest of your comments with a very large grain of salt.

Well that was rude.

[EG] Ethereal Guardians

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Posted by: Singer.8740

Singer.8740

But to be frank, your claiming that the Flamethrower is good for anything other than a torch for dark jumping puzzles or a utility kit that helps you die from retaliation is misguided at best, and leads me to take the rest of your comments with a very large grain of salt.

Well that was rude.

indeed :[

wonder when was the last time i saw a ret mob pack in dungeons was.
ive seen some very good FT dungeon builds.

Etheeria (The mad bomber). If you don’t have shellshock your not doing it right.

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Posted by: Phineas Poe.3018

Phineas Poe.3018

I’ve read it, and the results are not repeatable most dungeons

Is this real life?

Obviously you’re not going to hit for 8K in most dungeons. That has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the kit so much as that running a dungeon like Ascalon Catacombs explorable maxes you out with the stats of someone at level 35.

And you call me misguided. Wow.

[EG] Ethereal Guardians

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Posted by: Mork vom Ork.2598

Mork vom Ork.2598


please take a look at this build.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQFAUl0pqb3zSeF1LJyYGkWnBqAgJWwnHyVb9gA-jADBYfBhgAhEBI5pIasFhhtyJalOBRXDT5iIq2eDzgbR12dASBYiyI-e

this is an example of an engineer build that;

1. gives 9 stacks might to the party just from switching to med kit every 10 secs. combined with the fire field everyone is on 25 stacks of might without you breaking dps rotation.

It’s 9 stacks for you (while in combat) but only 3 for the party.

Still loving the smell of Napalm
Bill Kilgore – [BIER] – Seafarer’s Rest random Megaserver

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Posted by: Singer.8740

Singer.8740


please take a look at this build.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQFAUl0pqb3zSeF1LJyYGkWnBqAgJWwnHyVb9gA-jADBYfBhgAhEBI5pIasFhhtyJalOBRXDT5iIq2eDzgbR12dASBYiyI-e

this is an example of an engineer build that;

1. gives 9 stacks might to the party just from switching to med kit every 10 secs. combined with the fire field everyone is on 25 stacks of might without you breaking dps rotation.

It’s 9 stacks for you (while in combat) but only 3 for the party.

nooooo after 30 secsonds its 9 stacks for everyone 16 stacks for me (while IC)

Etheeria (The mad bomber). If you don’t have shellshock your not doing it right.

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Posted by: Mork vom Ork.2598

Mork vom Ork.2598


please take a look at this build.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQFAUl0pqb3zSeF1LJyYGkWnBqAgJWwnHyVb9gA-jADBYfBhgAhEBI5pIasFhhtyJalOBRXDT5iIq2eDzgbR12dASBYiyI-e

this is an example of an engineer build that;

1. gives 9 stacks might to the party just from switching to med kit every 10 secs. combined with the fire field everyone is on 25 stacks of might without you breaking dps rotation.

It’s 9 stacks for you (while in combat) but only 3 for the party.

nooooo after 30 secsonds its 9 stacks for everyone 16 stacks for me (while IC)

Base might duration on altruism runes is 10 seconds. With 25% boon duration and 40% might duration it’s 16,5 seconds. You can reach a maximum of 6 might for 6,5 seconds then it goes back to 3.

Still loving the smell of Napalm
Bill Kilgore – [BIER] – Seafarer’s Rest random Megaserver

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Posted by: Singer.8740

Singer.8740


please take a look at this build.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQFAUl0pqb3zSeF1LJyYGkWnBqAgJWwnHyVb9gA-jADBYfBhgAhEBI5pIasFhhtyJalOBRXDT5iIq2eDzgbR12dASBYiyI-e

this is an example of an engineer build that;

1. gives 9 stacks might to the party just from switching to med kit every 10 secs. combined with the fire field everyone is on 25 stacks of might without you breaking dps rotation.

It’s 9 stacks for you (while in combat) but only 3 for the party.

nooooo after 30 secsonds its 9 stacks for everyone 16 stacks for me (while IC)

Base might duration on altruism runes is 10 seconds. With 25% boon duration and 40% might duration it’s 16,5 seconds. You can reach a maximum of 6 might for 6,5 seconds then it goes back to 3.

lol, your completely right got my maths mixed up with the maths from my wvw gear (below)
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqel0pSX3zSiF87ISoC2noH6Hl5YfeIXPIEC-jQCBYfI4iBkgAhkGkEBITqIasVhFRjVJjIqWdDDA-e

doesnt change the facts that the dungeon group still sits on a comfortable 25 might with the swapping combined with the fire field and blasts though.

Etheeria (The mad bomber). If you don’t have shellshock your not doing it right.

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Posted by: lunyboy.8672

lunyboy.8672

I’ve read it, and the results are not repeatable most dungeons

Is this real life?

Obviously you’re not going to hit for 8K in most dungeons. That has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the kit so much as that running a dungeon like Ascalon Catacombs explorable maxes you out with the stats of someone at level 35.

And you call me misguided. Wow.

Gee, really? I didn’t notice that I was down-leveled in most dungeons.

Be sure and don’t show your math. Feel free to call me rude if that makes you feel better, that does nothing to further your argument.

EDIT; Forgot to mention that Poe is completely right, my build here has 4828 atk. I get around 7k auto as a matter of course and thats because i choose to might up my team. If i was selfish and took power/crit runes like scholar it would be higher. its pretty easy to get high DPS on an engineer if you know what your doing.

ATK is not a useful metric in determining DPS. What matters is your primary skills calculation in what you consider an ideal rotation.

Mostly, this is your 1 skill coefficent on your bomb kit using the standard weapon (non-ascended). All buffs being equal, how does it stand up to other professions with just these basic numbers in mind.

At no point did I say they weren’t utilitarian, just that other professions could manage these tasks easier. But the cost of being a generalist is not being quite as good as the specific professions you emulate. Engies could conceivably be a wild card in a party where specific things are needed, but there aren’t that many things that need covered in most dungeons, where stacking and smacking are norm.

PS. Stacking might is not super useful if you are going to be knocking back mobs while stacking or jumping out of range. So if you could outline a might stacking scenario that didn’t involve knockbacks, that would be useful.

indeed :[
wonder when was the last time i saw a ret mob pack in dungeons was.
ive seen some very good FT dungeon builds

Both HotW and CoE have retaliation on bosses, gee, I didn’t even have to look at the wiki to know. Hey look, those are both level 80 dungeons, learn something new every day.

Miss Fisthammer – Engineer | Urgard Fistorsen – Guardian
Physti – Elementalist | Fistful of Blades – Thief
[WHIP] Quaggan Slavers – HoD

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Posted by: Phineas Poe.3018

Phineas Poe.3018

Be sure and don’t show your math. Feel free to call me rude if that makes you feel better, that does nothing to further your argument.

…Show my math? What is this, arithmetic? Play the game, dude. I explain point by point how to emulate what I say you can get out of the Flamethrower or the Bomb Kit. Use that information how you please. Even if that means being smug and calling me misguided.

And just to set things straight: my argument was never that you hit 8K in all dungeons.

The Engineer doesn’t match the Lightning Hammer, but that doesn’t make it “bad.” I can’t imagine anyone who actually has experience running a 25/25/0/0/20 Bomb Kit build in CoF with 8K+ auto-attacks would even remotely think that our DPS output is in question when it counts.

[EG] Ethereal Guardians

(edited by Phineas Poe.3018)

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Posted by: ellesee.8297

ellesee.8297

it’s evident some nerds just know how to suck the fun out of everything. can we just agree that whiners join the zerk heavies only party and everyone else just enjoy the game? i recall this one time i was doing a guild fractal 48 run and i was running a melee tool kit build because pve so why not. someone had to leave and then i guess we invited lunyboy’s buddy because he was one of these guys that likes telling everybody how to play their class. hey why aren’t you going grenades? hey run zerk armor because here is some math. god i could just hear that nasally voice and that nyah after everything he said.

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Posted by: hybrid.5027

hybrid.5027

Flamethrower does really bad damage, I don’t know how anyone could even try to claim otherwise. It took me one lupicus kill to realize that.

I know who I am, do you know who you are?

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Posted by: Singer.8740

Singer.8740

Is this real life?

Obviously you’re not going to hit for 8K in most dungeons. That has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the kit so much as that running a dungeon like Ascalon Catacombs explorable maxes you out with the stats of someone at level 35.

And you call me misguided. Wow.

so/

969 x pow x skill specific coefficient / target armor

meaning

969 × 3563 x (insert skill) / (2000, 2200, 2600)

example

969 × 3563 x (bomb, 1.250) / 2600 (heavy mob) = 1660

1660 x (trait, vuln, protection, glancing, nourishment special effects)

therefore

1660 + explosive powder 10% + enduring damage 10%

1660 + (166 x2) = 1992

1992 x Crit (245%) = 4880 + vuln (25%) = 6100

before food and nourishment, warrior banners etc. and as i said im specced support so no power runes and lets not forget scaling making low level stuff lolz.

with such things you get this;

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/92649/Bomb.jpg

and i have all that awsome utility and who said anything about knockbakcs 0.o thats more comman sence of when and when not to use them than anything else :/

P.S. Tooltip info is inacurate and scaling maxes you at say catacombs 35 + % of gear quality so as such a level 80 in exotics in catacombs will do more DPS than a lv 35 in blue greens in catacombs. please do your homework.

EDIT; just noticed so many people here trying to make points without backing them up with valid proof such as traited FGS going god mode exept for the part were theres things called cooldowns on abilities so you will be using most of those charges on auto. So i think im gonna call quits on this post before i go insane. Think ill go number crunch a conjure ele. seems like fun.

Etheeria (The mad bomber). If you don’t have shellshock your not doing it right.

(edited by Singer.8740)

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Posted by: lunyboy.8672

lunyboy.8672

it’s evident some nerds just know how to suck the fun out of everything. can we just agree that whiners join the zerk heavies only party and everyone else just enjoy the game? i recall this one time i was doing a guild fractal 48 run and i was running a melee tool kit build because pve so why not. someone had to leave and then i guess we invited lunyboy’s buddy because he was one of these guys that likes telling everybody how to play their class. hey why aren’t you going grenades? hey run zerk armor because here is some math. god i could just hear that nasally voice and that nyah after everything he said.

The original question was usefulness, some opinions were put forth, some people took great offense and started up with the pitchforks and torches.

I have fun on whatever toon I play, but I have tried to not limit myself to just engineer recently, and it’s like playing a different game. With the overview of different professions, things seem a lot clearer, and engineer is not in a good place with regard to PvE. It is a passable profession, with decent utility that mostly isn’t used in dungeons.

In the end, there is a reason more people agree with Spoj about their status, and there is nothing more I want to do than to elevate that status, but the first step is to not live in the fantasy land where engineers are near the top of the usefulness list. We must all agree that asking for buffs for certain things is worth protesting in LA, and we aren’t close to PvE balanced now.

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

+1 to Lunyboy.

I use to be incredibly biased towards necro until I started playing other classes a lot more. Then i realised you can have a lot more fun by playing a variety of classes. You also tend to realise the shortcomings of each class and end up losing your bias if you enjoy the other classes enough. Id argue that those of you who are disgreeing with us prefer playing engi too much to lose your bias. Either that or you havent given enough other classes a good chance and learnt what they can do.

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Posted by: Infamous Darkness.3284

Infamous Darkness.3284

it’s evident some nerds just know how to suck the fun out of everything. can we just agree that whiners join the zerk heavies only party and everyone else just enjoy the game? i recall this one time i was doing a guild fractal 48 run and i was running a melee tool kit build because pve so why not. someone had to leave and then i guess we invited lunyboy’s buddy because he was one of these guys that likes telling everybody how to play their class. hey why aren’t you going grenades? hey run zerk armor because here is some math. god i could just hear that nasally voice and that nyah after everything he said.

I appreciate the name calling, the unwillingness to even put forward my name “lunyboy’s buddy” and a plethora of unfounded assumptions to insult me when I was answering a the question posed by the OP, I gave reasons why I believe that those other classes are better for dungeons and showed different ways in which that was the case. instead of debating my arguments you decided name calling was the most efficient route…personally I pug a lot of dungeons, I enjoy doing dungeons this way, I am also incredibly against kicking people from a dungeon for example I’ve taken level 22s through AC exp and first time fractalers through fractals 30, without telling them how to play in the slightest, in fact I don’t believe I have ever told anyone how to play their class I may ask why they are doing something in a certain way but I approach it as an opportunity to learn something I may have overlooked rather than assuming they are wrong before they even answer.

Infamous Culverin(engi[Main]), one of every other class.
Karl Marx: “Go away! Last words are for fools who haven’t said enough!”

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Posted by: Bloodgruve.6038

Bloodgruve.6038

No i believe its a bit lower even when including conditions. Which seems right based on the cast times and actual numbers you see compared to other classes. I cant find the post but guang did some numbers and it was like 13k dps for eles and thieves, 12-10k for the others. Ranger and engi were at 9k, with ranger slightly higher than engi. I dont know the exact buffs and conditions used to calculate these values, but they were done under the same assumptions for comparison.

Engi DPS is on par with other classes if you do it right. GK was nice enough to share his spreadsheet, I’m pretty sure there are other builds that would test a lot higher then the one he had in there, if in fact the 9K was from the build he had qued up. I calculated a guess that a Rifle/SD build would clock in around 14K with his sheet but he hasn’t responded to that request yet. My in game testing is showing that we’re competitive in a lot of builds and some are actually above average depending on the group comp and their ability to stack Vulnerability.

I’ve worked with a number of spreadsheets and built a few. None that I’ve seen seem accurate TBH. I like to make my conclusions on actual in game testing. But that’s just my opinion.

I would rank a Zerker or Rampager Grenade Engi in the top half of the usefulness list. Especially in a PUG run.

Blood~

“Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance”

(edited by Bloodgruve.6038)

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Posted by: Phineas Poe.3018

Phineas Poe.3018

Id argue that those of you who are disgreeing with us prefer playing engi too much to lose your bias. Either that or you havent given enough other classes a good chance and learnt what they can do.

I play my Guardian enough to invest in a full set of tier 3 human cultural armor. I’ve given my Guardian a good enough chance to invest in getting over a hundred Charged Lodestones and making him Foefire’s Power (back when they were several gold each), running CoE more times than I can count.

And I’ve learned enough of what he’s capable of doing with a Sword/Focus build to the point where I threw down for both Whisperblade and Spirit Links. I have everything short of a legendary weapon on my Guardian.

Please stop insinuating things about those who disagree with you and just respect a difference of opinion. My goodness. I love my Guardian and my Warrior, and I take them into dungeons just as frequently as I do my Engineer. Simple fact of the matter is I actually take my Engineer into dungeons and view him just as valuable.

But somehow that makes me “biased?”

OK. Because that makes sense.

[EG] Ethereal Guardians

(edited by Phineas Poe.3018)

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Posted by: Infamous Darkness.3284

Infamous Darkness.3284

The reason I ranked engi so low and still do is that we don’t really bring anything that is specifically unique to the group,
warriors bring banners, empower allies, and shouts
guardian brings reliable reflects, group blocks through aegis, group protection, and strength in numbers
mesmers duplicate boons, have time warp and reliable reflects, and portals
Eles bring summoned weapons (ex. conjure Ice bow against graveling burrows in AC), also group protection through aura sharing and attuning to earth
Ranger brings spirits, reliable reflects and the spotter trait

while thieves(I suppose thieves have shared venoms), necros(have fear but so do warriors), and engis can do a ton of things but don’t have any one specific thing that only our class can do

Note: reliable reflects I didn’t count engineer for reliable reflects because 1/2 the time our throw elixir U is a smoke wall, which absorbs projectiles but doesn’t reflect them, in the same way I didn’t include warriors shield trait that reflects or our shield 4 that reflects because it is only personal (the whole group doesn’t receive benefit from it)

Edit: forgot thief and Mesmer can provide group vigor

Infamous Culverin(engi[Main]), one of every other class.
Karl Marx: “Go away! Last words are for fools who haven’t said enough!”

(edited by Infamous Darkness.3284)

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Posted by: DesertRose.2031

DesertRose.2031

Do certain people in this thread really believe an Engineer with Toss Elixir U can replace a Guardian with Wall of Reflection and Shield of the Avenger or a Mesmer with Feedback, Temporal Curtain and Phantasmal Warden?
Do certain people in this thread really believe an Engineer with Toss Elixir B can replace a Guardian with “Stand Your Ground!” and Hollowed Ground?

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Posted by: ellesee.8297

ellesee.8297

firstly infamous darkness, i wasn’t talking about you unless it really was you which would explain why you got so defensive. nobody wants to hear a snooty lecture every time they log on. keep that in mind.

second you’re just listing everything every class can do. who is going to take a venomshare thief or a terrormancer into a nerdy, sweaty speedrun that unfortunately so many people here think is the only way to play this game?

#1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!
#1 Frandliest person NA!
http://www.twitch.tv/Livskis

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Posted by: Phineas Poe.3018

Phineas Poe.3018

Do certain people in this thread really believe an Engineer with Toss Elixir U can replace a Guardian with Wall of Reflection and Shield of the Avenger or a Mesmer with Feedback, Temporal Curtain and Phantasmal Warden?
Do certain people in this thread really believe an Engineer with Toss Elixir B can replace a Guardian with “Stand Your Ground!” and Hollowed Ground?

Did anyone say that?

[EG] Ethereal Guardians

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Posted by: Infamous Darkness.3284

Infamous Darkness.3284

I have 2k hours on my engineer, and run with Infamous. ^This guy’s got it right. Just because an engineer CAN do all those things across various builds and skills, doesn’t mean he can do that and output those mystical 8k auto attacks from the bomb kit.

Believe me. I’ve tried.

Building synergy with the rest of the group is easier for certain professions, the sooner we all agree on that and admit we are happier playing engineer than say, playing Guardian, the sooner we can all agree Engies need PvE buffs.

Period.

With an objective look at the profession, we could provide Anet devs unbiased feedback about “balance” and changes they make while trying to explain what we want out of the profession.

Like I said before, I typically don’t agree with Spoj about things, but despite what you may think about his posts, he has been politely disagreeing and countering the points made here without bias. And he is correct.

firstly infamous darkness, i wasn’t talking about you unless it really was you which would explain why you got so defensive. nobody wants to hear a snooty lecture every time they log on. keep that in mind.

second you’re just listing everything every class can do. who is going to take a venomshare thief or a terrormancer into a nerdy, sweaty speedrun that unfortunately so many people here think is the only way to play this game?

based on the post I just quoted above yours I believe my assumption was pretty accurate(also me and lunyboy are in the same guild and there are only 3 ppl who play engineer regularly in our guild including him and me). I am not attempting to give a snooty lecture, OP asked for list of usefulness(in dungeons) as we (engineers) don’t have anything that is truly unique in group support, that is not to say engineer aren’t fun to play or that they aren’t good, I just don’t rank them highly on usefulness for dungeons. You also pointed out terrormancer and venomshare thieves which I left at the bottom with engineers lumping them all together because of their lack of unique group buffs.

personally I feel like we(engineers) are very useful as wvw roamers and in zergs, and we are also good in spvp but those are outside of the scope of this thread. I also think we are good in open world pve as we are very self sufficient.

Infamous Culverin(engi[Main]), one of every other class.
Karl Marx: “Go away! Last words are for fools who haven’t said enough!”

(edited by Infamous Darkness.3284)

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Posted by: lunyboy.8672

lunyboy.8672

I have 2k hours on my engineer, and run with Infamous. ^This guy’s got it right. Just because an engineer CAN do all those things across various builds and skills, doesn’t mean he can do that and output those mystical 8k auto attacks from the bomb kit.

Believe me. I’ve tried.

Building synergy with the rest of the group is easier for certain professions, the sooner we all agree on that and admit we are happier playing engineer than say, playing Guardian, the sooner we can all agree Engies need PvE buffs.

Period.

With an objective look at the profession, we could provide Anet devs unbiased feedback about “balance” and changes they make while trying to explain what we want out of the profession.

Like I said before, I typically don’t agree with Spoj about things, but despite what you may think about his posts, he has been politely disagreeing and countering the points made here without bias. And he is correct.

firstly infamous darkness, i wasn’t talking about you unless it really was you which would explain why you got so defensive. nobody wants to hear a snooty lecture every time they log on. keep that in mind.

second you’re just listing everything every class can do. who is going to take a venomshare thief or a terrormancer into a nerdy, sweaty speedrun that unfortunately so many people here think is the only way to play this game?

based on the post I just quoted above yours I believe my assumption was pretty accurate(also me and lunyboy are in the same guild and there are only 3 ppl who play engineer regularly in our guild including him and me). I am not attempting to give a snooty lecture, OP asked for list of usefulness(in dungeons) as we (engineers) don’t have anything that is truly unique in group support, that is not to say engineer aren’t fun to play or that they aren’t good, I just don’t rank them highly on usefulness for dungeons. You also pointed out terrormancer and venomshare thieves which I left at the bottom with engineers lumping them all together because of their lack of unique group buffs.

personally I feel like we(engineers) are very useful as wvw roamers and in zergs, and we are also good in spvp but those are outside of the scope of this thread. I also think we are good in open world pve as we are very self sufficient.

I don’t know man, that Nerdy, Sweaty speedrun sound awfully tempting…

Miss Fisthammer – Engineer | Urgard Fistorsen – Guardian
Physti – Elementalist | Fistful of Blades – Thief
[WHIP] Quaggan Slavers – HoD

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Posted by: Phineas Poe.3018

Phineas Poe.3018

based on the post I just quoted above yours I believe my assumption was pretty accurate(also me and lunyboy are in the same guild and there are only 3 ppl who play engineer regularly in our guild including him and me).

So your guild speaks for the general perception of Engineers across the entire game? OK.

[EG] Ethereal Guardians

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Posted by: Infamous Darkness.3284

Infamous Darkness.3284

based on the post I just quoted above yours I believe my assumption was pretty accurate(also me and lunyboy are in the same guild and there are only 3 ppl who play engineer regularly in our guild including him and me).

So your guild speaks for the general perception of Engineers across the entire game? OK.

ok you completely took it out of context and didn’t even take the whole quote, anyways that quote was in reference to ellesee.8297: insulting words to lunyboy’s friend, which I assumed to be me given the post that I quoted just above ellesee.8297, and I was giving additional information to back up why I believed that to be the case, this was added incase ellesee.8297 hadn’t really meant any offense and try to explain the situation. So your perception of me, and people in my guild is to be taken as fact… and here I thought we were debating the pros and cons of the most efficient dungeon group not having an exercise into how to produce tainted or forged evidence.

edit: I also like how you avoided all of the part in that post that were my arguments and instead focused on what seems to be a personal attack.

Infamous Culverin(engi[Main]), one of every other class.
Karl Marx: “Go away! Last words are for fools who haven’t said enough!”

(edited by Infamous Darkness.3284)

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Posted by: Phineas Poe.3018

Phineas Poe.3018

here I thought we were debating the pros and cons of the most efficient dungeon group.

That’s what I thought too, but apparently you seem to be more focused on telling us how many people in your guild play Engineers as though that’s relevant. Unless you’re indicating that the low number of players speaks to something?

[EG] Ethereal Guardians

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Posted by: coglin.1867

coglin.1867

Phineas is correct. You do not post in terms of opinion or concept, you put all of your post in the form of definitive statements.

A video on what weak PvPer’s and WvWer’s want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c

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Posted by: Infamous Darkness.3284

Infamous Darkness.3284

here I thought we were debating the pros and cons of the most efficient dungeon group.

That’s what I thought too, but apparently you seem to be more focused on telling us how many people in your guild play Engineers as though that’s relevant. Unless you’re indicating that the low number of players speaks to something?

No it doesn’t speak to anything other than it was a response ellesee.8297, you also still haven’t responded to unique group buffs, what can engineer do that benefits the group that no other group members or as a full group without an engineer in the party can do?

Infamous Culverin(engi[Main]), one of every other class.
Karl Marx: “Go away! Last words are for fools who haven’t said enough!”

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Posted by: Infamous Darkness.3284

Infamous Darkness.3284

Phineas is correct. You do not post in terms of opinion or concept, you put all of your post in the form of definitive statements.

ah well my apologies then, I mean them in a way of concept, other then the examples that I give(the examples are meant to be statements), as they are there to back up the concept.

Infamous Culverin(engi[Main]), one of every other class.
Karl Marx: “Go away! Last words are for fools who haven’t said enough!”

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Posted by: Phineas Poe.3018

Phineas Poe.3018

what can engineer do that benefits the group that no other group members or as a full group without an engineer in the party can do?

Nothing. That is what makes it a “jack of all trades,” right? Our role coverage is better than any other class, but we’re not as effective at is as one class (i.e., Guardian) is at a specified role. Except maybe Vulnerability stacking.

[EG] Ethereal Guardians

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Posted by: Infamous Darkness.3284

Infamous Darkness.3284

what can engineer do that benefits the group that no other group members or as a full group without an engineer in the party can do?

Nothing. That is what makes it a “jack of all trades,” right? Our role coverage is better than any other class, but we’re not as effective at is as one class (i.e., Guardian) is at a specified role.

but see that is where our disagreement lies other professions can do things that no other profession can pull off, while engineer has access to many of the tools of other professions have and can use them pretty effectively they will never be able to close the gap especially in larger parties because it means everything engineer can do, can be done by another profession with an added bonus ability that the engineer wouldn’t possess, if this thread had been named dungeon solo usefulness I would’ve ranked engineer much higher as you are able to cover yourself in many of these areas where other professions wouldn’t have the same #/variety of options, but as the groups get bigger and bigger there is less need for a jack of all trades and more benefit to bringing along a class that specializes in each task that is needed to complete the encounter. [if this would’ve been a post about underwater dungeons I would’ve been completely on your side (I believe engis have highest possible underwater damage, and we can still use throw elixir U underwater where guardians cannot, I know that I can hit over 16k with the 1/4 cast scatter mines in HotW without rifle mod, on a 10~second cooldown)]

Infamous Culverin(engi[Main]), one of every other class.
Karl Marx: “Go away! Last words are for fools who haven’t said enough!”

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Posted by: coglin.1867

coglin.1867

So, Infamous Darkness, instead of quoting every single post of someone who disagrees with you and arguing it, what should the engineer be? Why should it be that way? How do you implement it?

A video on what weak PvPer’s and WvWer’s want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c

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Posted by: Infamous Darkness.3284

Infamous Darkness.3284

So, Infamous Darkness, instead of quoting every single post of someone who disagrees with you and arguing it, what should the engineer be? Why should it be that way? How do you implement it?

it doesn’t necessarily have to be changed at all it just currently has nothing that is truly unique about it which is why I rate it in a low position for team dungeons.

but if you’d really like me to give an example this is the best I could come up with on the fly and of course it would need to be changed before implementation, but I’d go with something along the lines of a trait that (ex. grandmaster trait in tools, “off balance” whenever you knockdown, knockback, or blowout an enemy for 1 second that enemy takes an additional 15% damage)…I know its not the best idea and it only really helps damage but it was the best I could come up with at a moments notice [I say grandmaster in tools as they are trying to remove perma vigor so I assume that adrenal implant will get destroyed.]

Infamous Culverin(engi[Main]), one of every other class.
Karl Marx: “Go away! Last words are for fools who haven’t said enough!”

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Posted by: coglin.1867

coglin.1867

Personally, I feel we are one of the best debuffers. So many bosses have some type of heal or regen now, and poison is very easy for us to apply and maintain. We can heavily stack vulnerability, maybe better then anyone. We can keep up weakness 100% of the time. We can apply blinds as fast as any other profession.

No other profession can Keep burns up better then the engineer. Maybe equally but not better.

All in all I have to agree that we do have a place. We can stack as many bleeds as anyone, keep up 100% burning, poison, weakness, and blinds. We can be equaled at these things, but not beaten.

I do not care about the other things some professions is very specific builds can do. I rarely encounter players capable of constantly maximizing a specific aspect. When I bruing my engineer I am the balance. For some reason I end up with aggro very regularly. I survive it, freeing others to do those jobs you feel they are better at then us. I feel the gaps. I top the conditions off then they are close but not capped. I keep the might up with my fire fields/finisher, help with 12s group invis when shadow refuge is on CD. Assuming we even have a thief in group.

We have diversity, giving use the ability to fill in gap in a way no other profession can. That is what we are best at. That is what I like about out profession in a dungeon. I may not be the best at anyone thing, but I am generally very good at several things, i na way no other profession can be.

A video on what weak PvPer’s and WvWer’s want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c

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Posted by: Phineas Poe.3018

Phineas Poe.3018

but see that is where our disagreement lies other professions can do things that no other profession can pull off, while engineer has access to many of the tools of other professions have and can use them pretty effectively they will never be able to close the gap especially in larger parties because it means everything engineer can do, can be done by another profession with an added bonus ability that the engineer wouldn’t possess.

I’ve already responded to this point, establishing:

You guys obsess over what the ideal setup is when you fail to recognize that taking an Engineer fills any hole in the group regardless of what the other 4 players build themselves around. I consider that the ideal class to play.

Does taking an Engineer absolve the group of all its wall reflect necessities in fractals? Absolutely not. We cannot single-handedly manage that. But taking an Engineer over a Ranger certainly helps fill that hole, while contributing in other areas that Rangers cannot.

Yes, Rangers can give their party 150 Precision while we can’t. Rangers have to outperform us in some area with some kind of group buff—otherwise why would you ever take one? Each class has their own strengths. Ours is just relative to our role coverage.

but as the groups get bigger and bigger there is less need for a jack of all trades and more benefit to bringing along a class that specializes in each task that is needed to complete the encounter.

Not sure I buy that. Jack of all trades are common in end-game scenarios across other MMOs. Based off my own personal experience in WoW and FFXI, Shamans and Red Mages when I played those games had absolutely zero issues joining groups—in PvE or PvP.

Tequatl is perhaps the largest top-tier encounter we’ve witnessed in this game, and I certainly contributed plenty on the end of defense. During Sanctum of Rall’s first server kill with EG, CDS, and GSCH (sorry if I’m forgetting anyone else—there were so many!), I turned on my own blue chip and kept my turrets alive. Super Elixir and Healing Turret didn’t single-handedly keep them alive. I had a lot of help, of course. But our extensive CC control through Overcharged Shot, Net Shot, and Air Blast simultaneously kept champs/vets off the turreteers while I was healing them. And the truth of the matter is that the work that I contributed was valued enough to be asked to do it the next few times we worked together to defeat Tequatl. I would have never been able to do that kind of thing on my Guardian or my Warrior.

Engineers are one of the best auxiliary support classes in the game given our multi-purpose ability to contribute to #1-6 within the construction of one, singular build. With any kit focus (though Bomb Kit in my mind is best). We have the best combo field coverage and the most blast finishers of any class. Me and my guild leader have alone been all that was necessary to keep Jonez alive during the Temple of Grenth second phase. So many people complain that Temple of Balthazar is now too hard, but guess what? If you land all your blast finishers in Water fields as an Engineer, we contribute heavily to keeping the Pact alive, perhaps better than any other class can as an individual player.

I disagree with your assertions that jack of all trades classes will be phased out, and I can guarantee you that whenever they start creating instanced top-tier content, Engineers are going to be just as commonly ran in our guild runs as any other class. And we will not suffer for it.

[EG] Ethereal Guardians

(edited by Phineas Poe.3018)