Guild Wars 2

CMF.5461:

I have to voice AGAINST the change unfortunately.

I do not use tomes, but when I do I do not use tomes for the proposed changes they have.

Currently tome mechanics favor the usage of spamming 1 for both tomes.

Tome of Courage you were provided with a significant group heal that could be layers with multiple guardians with high effects in WvW and moderate effect in sPvP. Open world boss PvP it was moderate to low usage.

The remaining skills on the Tome transition were forgettable except for that enticing AoE “full” heal, but it took some setup to use without getting interrupted (risk vs reward).

The blind/protection/condition removal/regen boon were less noticeable in effect and often used at the expense of casting the spamable heal or full heal. The AoE daze did have some clutch usage, and was a welcome tool set on the tome.

By changing the tome of courage into a signet we lose a daze and a controlled spamable heal to fight against spamable attacks by opposing groups.

Tome of Wrath also so its primary use by spamming 1 and raining direct damage and condition damage on an opposing group. The haste and AoE knock down were flashy and could be clutch, but at the end of the day, being able to control an area with consistent damage on a point was the reason to take the tome if any.

The weakness/cripple/might/swiftness are laughable and ignored much as the utility effects on tome of courage were.

So changing Tome of Wrath into a shout we lose the ability to put damage pressure on a point and aoe control via knock down.

The two bolded lines saying what we lose are the only reason, I feel anyone takes the tomes and they were useful, but not useful enough reasons when paired against the losses in effect you had from losing your weapon set and utility skills for having tomes active.

TLDR:
I think a buff to tomes with maintaining the primary heal/damage ability of the tomes would help keep them unique enough and clutch enough in a fight would be more beneficial than watering down the skills to a shout and signet.

Shorter cooldowns? Longer durations? Higher damage/heal numbers? I am not in favor of taking them away, even though I don’t use them, I see the potential and we would lose that potential if they are removed and changed.

Courage I can see people wanting to keep it wrath,not so much. Conflagrate did less damage than symbol of wrath + whirling wrath in the same time frame to multiple targets. Zealots fervor was the only reason to use tome of wrath when mesmers were not around and a shout makes it better than the tome. binding blade, wards, heck even shelter make better AoE CC not taking into account the new DH AoE CC.

Zergs.9715:

Tomes are awesome concept and should be preserved in some form in the future. They really bring out the castery side of guardians and I think it should be embodied through a whole new spec.

1. pull the tomes from elite slot
2. drop them into utilities for a tome based specialization
3. functionality similar to kits
4. accordingly tone down the effects of skills

It makes sense in my mind at least You already have two in place and only need to come up with four more for a full spec.

Actually scratch that!

Make a new specialization that turns virtues into tomes that you can swap around as kits and tie them to spirit weapons. That way you only need one more to come up with. We already have offensive and healing tome, so the third one could be condi or boon oriented.

More alternate tome ideas to help preserve them but increase “want” to use them.

Tome of Courage:
Purifying Light: 600 range / 5 second channel / 1 second pulses / mobile while channeling / 10s cooldown: Emit bright light that blinds opponents and clears conditions from allies up to 10 targets.

Symbol of Truth: 180 radius / 4 second duration / 1 second pulses / 20s cooldown: Place a symbol on the ground that converts all damage into healing for allies for up to 5 targets (conditions and CCs still apply full effect).

Tome of Wrath:
Cry of Justice: 600 range / 5 second channel / 20s cooldown / mobile while channeling: Allies in range have 20% increased damage for the duration of channel, up to 5 targets.

Flames of Judgement: 600 range / 5s cooldown: Up to 10 enemy targets have all conditions converted to burning based on casters condition damage.

Vizardlorde.8243:

Courage I can see people wanting to keep it wrath,not so much. Conflagrate did less damage than symbol of wrath + whirling wrath in the same time frame to multiple targets. Zealots fervor was the only reason to use tome of wrath when mesmers were not around and a shout makes it better than the tome. binding blade, wards, heck even shelter make better AoE CC not taking into account the new DH AoE CC.

Agreed, which is why I propose to increase damage or number of targets on Conflagrate. By increasing damage it is an easy fix to make it threatening. and/or increasing number of targets helps its use in large fight situations (wvw). Less damage per target but more damage done to a whole group.

Tome of Wrath was one of our few ranged targetable aoe skills that could be useful to keep opponents off a point in sPvP or keep doing damage from a wall in WvW. It just needs a boost to make it more worthwhile.

I would loooovvve the Signet one so much.

Tomes are a fantastic idea, but they were really poorly implemented because elites apparently can’t be ultimate skills which deal terrifying amounts of damage or utility on a long cooldown.

I dislike this change because it simply takes away such a fantastic idea and I’ve become wary when you promise us a “future” return of the mechanic (See: Smoking Crater that is LA, SAB, etc, etc). It’s a unique idea that I haven’t seen in any game and I’d love for it to stay with us instead of this halfhearted measure to turn us into warriors with blue flames.

Instead of removing features from the core game, why not just change your view of elites to being ultimate skills and revamping all the classes so that elites are just these fantastically powerful spells that you would truly only pull out in the most dire of circumstances? Don’t just take the easy way out and SAB one of the only unique skills that you gave Guardians.

I like the Tomes. I would be perfectly happy to see them qualified as a spirit weapon. (conjour weps would have made so much sense for guardians , WIELD UR SPIRIT WEAPONS) . But the tomes would still work with the upcoming traits adding fire to the normal attacks.

They do need a bit of either dmg or utility revision if u want to see it more mainstream zerg seige wepon or as a pvp skill. Mainly you should still allow healing and utility skills to be used.

I like the concept of the Tomes, too. But I think these proposed changes are better than the current Tome implementation.

perko.8309:

I like the concept of the Tomes, too. But I think these proposed changes are better than the current Tome implementation.

I second the notion.

For those who say Quickness could backfire on us, well, there has to be a form of counter play right? Quickness stomps is one of the most OP features in Structured PvP. I see people choosing this elite for that very reason. I think it’s a change that’s very much needed.

CMF.5461:

Vizardlorde.8243:

Courage I can see people wanting to keep it wrath,not so much. Conflagrate did less damage than symbol of wrath + whirling wrath in the same time frame to multiple targets. Zealots fervor was the only reason to use tome of wrath when mesmers were not around and a shout makes it better than the tome. binding blade, wards, heck even shelter make better AoE CC not taking into account the new DH AoE CC.

Agreed, which is why I propose to increase damage or number of targets on Conflagrate. By increasing damage it is an easy fix to make it threatening. and/or increasing number of targets helps its use in large fight situations (wvw). Less damage per target but more damage done to a whole group.

Tome of Wrath was one of our few ranged targetable aoe skills that could be useful to keep opponents off a point in sPvP or keep doing damage from a wall in WvW. It just needs a boost to make it more worthwhile.

Now we dont need it because we have a bow not on a 3 minute cooldown and these elites do not criple us by locking out our class mechanic or our utilities.

Zergs.9715:

Zergs.9715:

Tomes are awesome concept and should be preserved in some form in the future. They really bring out the castery side of guardians and I think it should be embodied through a whole new spec.

1. pull the tomes from elite slot
2. drop them into utilities for a tome based specialization
3. functionality similar to kits
4. accordingly tone down the effects of skills

It makes sense in my mind at least You already have two in place and only need to come up with four more for a full spec.

Actually scratch that!

Make a new specialization that turns virtues into tomes that you can swap around as kits and tie them to spirit weapons. That way you only need one more to come up with. We already have offensive and healing tome, so the third one could be condi or boon oriented.

I hope this has grabbed dev imagination like it’s grabbed mine.

‘The Librarian’
Guardians next Elite Specialisation!

Arnath.2319:

‘The Librarian’
Guardians next Elite Specialisation!

I’d be down with an Archivist

Jns.1059:

ArchielDiem.7650:

add Tome of Wrath’s AoE knockdown (or at least that cool animation) to that Shout
and I think we’d have a deal

Well said!

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/%22Coward!%22

And name it “Fus Ro Dah!”
Then rename the new Dragonhunter trait “Dulled Senses” to “Arrow to the Knee”.

Arnath.2319:

‘The Librarian’
Guardians next Elite Specialization!

Omg I can’t wait to summon a book case and alphabetize it!

I cannot stand the tomes and never use them. I would love to see these changes implemented.

Signed,
One happy Guardian/Arbiter

Definitely a fan of this. I can’t speak for everyone, but I know personally that I never use the tomes. Long cool down, spammy play, just not fun.

Tomes were a very cool idea, but weren’t very efficient in a lot of ways. If we do bring them back I hope you do consider the suggestion to make the Specialization replace virtues with tomes like kits. Sounds epic. Archivist ftw.

I like this.

However – I definitely do want to see Tomes return as part of an elite specialization. This round Guardians are getting a more martial specialization, so this gives an opportunity for a more mystical version which utilizes Tome skills in a future update.

I am pro removal of tomes but that’s because I hardly ever use them! Most of the time I just have Renewed Focus which is a Meditation and so works when I have an all meditation build! But even when I have shouts, consecration or just a mix of utilities, I can’t really think of a better Guardian elite then Renewed Focus. Indeed the alternate elite I usually use in PvE is hounds of Balthazaar.

No guardian will ever run full signet, unless they are just messing around in PvE but people do run full shout builds! So replacing tomes with a shout elite to go with shout builds and a signet to go with a build with a few signets makes a whole lot of sense! But again, I am someone who doesn’t use tomes. I am sure tomes have their fans but in my opinion, I think its high time they were replaced with something with more synergy with the rest of our utilities.

I realy liked the idea of tomes, they just need serious rework, as you said.
I would suggest to have a look at the old gw monk abilities, something like “Infuse Life” would be really nice to have and it would nicely fit into the guardian theme (weaken yourself to support your allies).
A quick fix could be to turn them into something like the engineers kits… no cooldown on taking the book, but cooldown on the single skills within the book…
This would support active gameplay and would reward knowing and handling cooldowns.

Also there is a reason, why ppl take skills like “lich form” but dont want tomes, even if the mechanic is similar.
The heal from a tome is less reliable than the heal from blasting a waterfield…
To make it worth an elite skill that is used in WvW it needs a serious Boost. Also it needs condition remove. Maybe it should have the same amount of heal on full cleric, that a lich form does on berserker?! So that it could be used as some kind of counter to that lich form. Maybe also with some protection/regen/…
Maybe pulsing condition remove, that causes weaknes for each condition removed from an allied?

Also if you want to boost conditon usage on guardian, you could make traits, that change the tome skills or add conditions to them.
The dmg tome should boost offensive potential of the allies, while not leaving the guardian completely vulnerable. Maybe pulsing condition remove, that causes burning for each condition removed?

Last but not least try to think about your new mechanics from HoT. Something like the blocking skill on the F3 virtue you gave to “dragon hunter”.
It’s already one of the key roles of guardian to block out your oponents key skills with aegis.

You also have to consider how much more effective Conflagrate might be with the new burning mechanics. We all saw the 3k+ burns in the video…

Adding a second more to the burn applied by tome of wrath#1 would probably make it feel like a real elite.

Before they nerfed the base-stat boost to the tomes a few months ago you could get 1k burn ticks from conflagrate, and it was pretty fun – although it required a niche build.

In HoT we could see some nice trap combos ( eg Ray of Judgement ), stacking vuln and burn to make the tome something to be feared.

CMF.5461:

Vizardlorde.8243:

Courage I can see people wanting to keep it wrath,not so much. Conflagrate did less damage than symbol of wrath + whirling wrath in the same time frame to multiple targets. Zealots fervor was the only reason to use tome of wrath when mesmers were not around and a shout makes it better than the tome. binding blade, wards, heck even shelter make better AoE CC not taking into account the new DH AoE CC.

Agreed, which is why I propose to increase damage or number of targets on Conflagrate. By increasing damage it is an easy fix to make it threatening. and/or increasing number of targets helps its use in large fight situations (wvw). Less damage per target but more damage done to a whole group.

Tome of Wrath was one of our few ranged targetable aoe skills that could be useful to keep opponents off a point in sPvP or keep doing damage from a wall in WvW. It just needs a boost to make it more worthwhile.

Not everyone runs GS. With my Burn Build conflagate would hit for 1k+ raw dam on top of 1k+ burn dam per sec from 1200 range. I could clear a whole cap point by the time duration ran out.

That’s why I propose new version has quickness +burning rather than quickness +fury (all 3 would be great) in order to retain the best aspect of tome of wrath-conflagate.

JonPeters.5630:

Wanted to run a potential idea past you all. Comments welcome.

Tome of Courage -> Signet of Courage
Passive: PBAoE Heal every 10 seconds.
Active: Light of Deliverance

Tome of Wrath -> “Feel My Wrath”
Shout that grants Quickness and Fury

<SNIP>

Thoughts? Comments?

Thanks,

Jon

Totally in for this change. Generally, I only use Tome of Wrath at the moment for the quickness anyway when I don’t need a panic button and my team as at no risk of getting overwhelmed and needing a heal (basically when I’m just looking to maximise team DPS).

Bear in mind in it’s current incarnation, you have just enough time with Tome of Wrath to fire off 2 lots of quickness per cast of the Tome (once immediately upon entering the Tome, and then another as soon as its recharged before the Tome expires), for 10 total seconds of quickness per Tome use, so the new Shout elite would have too accommodate that, though I expect it will anyway through a reduced CD over the Tome.

With that in mind, I really like the entry for the Elite Shout. It makes alot of sense.
Plus, yay for more ease of access to Fury for Guardians.

As for the Signet of Courage, also would be a nice change over the Tome. Once again, most people just use the Tome for Light of Deliverance anyway, so rolling it into a Signet Active makes sense – and considering we already have a Signet that grants a large Healing Power boost, could a Signet-build Healer Guardians become a thing with this change (finally giving Signets some place in Guardian builds)? That’s definitely an interesting concept I’d look forward to trying out.

If the Signet had a CD similar to what the Tome already has, then I don’t foresee any real balance problems with the change – I guess you’d just have to give the Signet active a cast time similar to what the current combined cast time already is for casting the Tome and then casting Light of Deliverance. Also, the pulsing PBAoE Heal for the signet definitely sounds like a really interesting concept, especially to go along with the theme of a Signet Healer Guardian (combined with the Shared Resolve trait ofc, could put out some nice passive healing to a party).

JonPeters.5630:

We like the idea of tomes and if we did this we would hope to bring them back in a future Elite Specialization.

Honestly, Tomes are so different from the rest of the way a Guardian works, that that is probably the best place for them and makes much more sense. Just be ready for backlash when that specialization finally gets released in a new expansion or whatever with people crying foul “OMG, we have to pay to get content back that we already had once but got removed from the game! Lame! ANet got greedy and just care about the $$$s now! The manifesto was all a lie!”. If you guys at ANet are okay with that, by all means, it makes alot of sense IMO to tie Tomes to a new specialization in the future instead and make the current Elites what you just proposed instead.

Hehe, Tomes could be released as a new skill type in general then especially for that expansion with a whole bunch of professions getting them with their new specialization (Necromancer, Elementalist, Revenant, would all probably make sense to be using Tomes too in some form).

JonPeters.5630:

Wanted to run a potential idea past you all. Comments welcome.

Tome of Courage -> Signet of Courage
Passive: PBAoE Heal every 10 seconds.
Active: Light of Deliverance

Tome of Wrath -> “Feel My Wrath”
Shout that grants Quickness and Fury

We like the idea of tomes and if we did this we would hope to bring them back in a future Elite Specialization.

Thoughts? Comments?

Thanks,

Jon

I like it, but we need more details

This proposal does not thrill me. I cannot speak to Tome of Wrath, as I never use it, but I will miss Tome of Courage if it is replaced by a signet. Light of Deliverance is rarely the reason I use that tome. Its casting time is too long—making it an unreliable skill to pull off in an emergency. What makes ToC useful to me is Pacifism, Purifying Ribbon, and Heal Area.

In PvE, ToC does not see much use, but there are situations like the Mai Trin fight where it absolutely has more of an impact than Renewed Focus in my opinion. Outside of PvE, it is hands down my favorite and most frequently slotted elite. ToC is one of the few elites in GW2 that feels like game changer when applied strategically.

The suggested signet sounds like it would be handy in a wider variety of situations, but far weaker in scenarios where ToC shines brightest. Essentially, I would feel even more forced into using Renewed Focus by this change, rather than less.

ToC is also aesthetically pleasing. In a game where looks are a big deal, tomes are by far the flashiest skills guardian gets. ToC is not only useful when I feel it is needed, but fun! It actually looks cool and feels powerful. It is like my character is reaching out to some greater power from without or within. Whereas using Renewed Focus is about as exciting as activating a shout. A signet will be even worse.

I rather see ToC tweaked than replaced with this less versatile signet and a promise we may see ToC return someday as part of a future elite specialization. When I heard Elite Focus’s duration bonus was being rolled in as baseline I got excited. This suggestion has had an opposite, chilling effect.

I will not do something as dramatic as quit GW2 or stop playing my guardian if ToC is replaced, but it would be a telling blow to my enjoyment of the profession.

As someone who plays ONLY guardian, this change does excite me. Currently the only Elite Skill I use is Renewed Focus.
Changing the two tome skills would most likely get me to use those in situations as well.

I am also looking forward into the future, where the tomes could be added to another Elite Specialization for the Guardian, more meaningful and more fleshed out.

The best thing about these changes, is it opens the door to the next (or next next) guardian elite spec having kits, with the tomes being in that skill category. A light wielding faithful warrior who uses his conviction and teachings to smite his foes, using his personal book-mobile library to adapt to any and all situations. New weapon, rifle. Cause you know, sometimes actions speak louder than words. Make it happen ANet.

I like the idea. The only thing that bugs me a bit is that there currently are applications for Tome of Courage skill 1 (think: Stronghold). If that’s gone, the guardian will no longer have access to an ability that, over a certain amount of time, constantly heals up allies significantly.

So if you take away that ability, PLEASE bring it back with the next guardian elite specialization. Tomes as kits (maybe at the cost of losing weapon swap) sound like a whole lot of fun.

Goodbye tomes, you will not be missed. They were “bad player”-traps outside of one or two situations anyway.

Bring them back as a weapon for Guardians/Necro’s/Ele’s/Mesmers I’d say.

What I fail to understand is why is an already powerful and well balanced class being given extra scrutiny by developers when Necromancer has been left in the mud and ignored for at least as long as I’ve been playing the game.

The sheer level of developer bias is flabbergasting.

YES! Do it, I never really felt like playing my guardian, because the only Elite skill worth taking at the point was the invulnerability. But the Signet and the shout sounds pretty awesome. I kinda wish other classes were getting a rework on their elites too.

How about you keep the tomes and just give them a 30 second cooldown and allow utilities to work.

This will save you guys a lot of work.

As several others, I also don’t like the idea of transforming the Tomes into other spells. I also would prefer to remove tomes for now and to reintroduce them later on with a Tome skill set.

As your plan was to reuse certain skills of these tomes and transform them into a signet or shout elite skill, I propose my personnel “elite skill” for both signet and shout. But these are, off course, just my idea’s.

Signet elite skill

Name: Signet of Perfect Inscriptions
Passive: Signets passive effects are improved.
Active: Recharges all signet skills.
Cooldown: 120 – 150 seconds

The idea is to transform the current trait Perfect Inscriptions into a skill and to enable the usage of signets as a set. Right now, most guardians (if I may generalize to the best of my knowledge) never really consider using multiple signets. Only sometimes do they use Signet of Resolve or Bane Signet, but both are used individually rather than being used in a signet build. This is something I would try to change with this elite skill, as it not only allows guardians to use a signet build, but it also allows guardians in tpvp or WvW to consider the usage of Signet of Mercy, as using the elite skill will allow the guardian to revive multiple allies. Which therefore also matches the developers idea of a guardian being supportive.

Shout elite skill

Name: Save Yourselves
Usage: Draw conditions from nearby allies to yourself. Grant multiple boons for a short duration. Breaks stun.
Cooldown: 150 seconds

My proposed elite shout skill is a promotion of the skill Save Yourselves. I believe this skill can be perfectly used as an elite skill as it actually already has multiple aspects of an “elite skill”: it gives us multiple boons and it breaks stun. However, in my upgraded version, I would propose that all boons are also granted to my allies. That’s why I increased the cooldown to compensate for the granted boons. The duration of the boons would remain the same in PvE and WvW, for PvP one might consider to slightly increase their duration.

Both suggestions of course mean that you will need to add a new shout skill and adapt an existing trait. But as this topic is mainly meant for Tomes and the proposed signet and shout elite skill, I won’t really go into detail about certain propositions as it will takes us too much off topic.

Edit: Increased the cooldown, as I realised that my original cooldown would make AH builds to powerfull.

Rashagar.8349:

Zergs.9715:

Zergs.9715:

Tomes are awesome concept and should be preserved in some form in the future. They really bring out the castery side of guardians and I think it should be embodied through a whole new spec.

1. pull the tomes from elite slot
2. drop them into utilities for a tome based specialization
3. functionality similar to kits
4. accordingly tone down the effects of skills

It makes sense in my mind at least You already have two in place and only need to come up with four more for a full spec.

Actually scratch that!

Make a new specialization that turns virtues into tomes that you can swap around as kits and tie them to spirit weapons. That way you only need one more to come up with. We already have offensive and healing tome, so the third one could be condi or boon oriented.

I hope this has grabbed dev imagination like it’s grabbed mine.

Thanks mate

Ghotistyx.6942:

Arnath.2319:

‘The Librarian’
Guardians next Elite Specialisation!

I’d be down with an Archivist

Lorekeeper.

With the trait changes, Those are the only effects I would use from the tomes anyway so.. Definitely +1 for this change.

Please make this happen asap.

I’ve always really liked the idea behind Tomes, but they’re just not in a good place right now.

I like the suggested Signet and Shout changes. They’ll open up a bit more build diversity while keeping the most useful functions of the old Tomes available (on demand AoE Quickness and Heal)

+1 from me!

“Feel My Wrath” is intriguing. If it affects allies, I want it yesterday.

What I did not like about tomes is that you lose all of your skills. I would prefer to keep some form of weapon. But I like the powerful utility provided on a long cooldown.

Silly pipe dream, but what if tomes were part of the next specialization, Paragon. Each tome gives you access to Anthems and Chants. These would basically be chained shouts. Chants would work like Mantras, two or more identical shouts layered on top of each other. Anthems would have two or more different shouts. This works thematically, like reading directly off of a tome. Some could even be quotes of legendary heroes.

Achrisos.1360:

CMF.5461:

Vizardlorde.8243:

Courage I can see people wanting to keep it wrath,not so much. Conflagrate did less damage than symbol of wrath + whirling wrath in the same time frame to multiple targets. Zealots fervor was the only reason to use tome of wrath when mesmers were not around and a shout makes it better than the tome. binding blade, wards, heck even shelter make better AoE CC not taking into account the new DH AoE CC.

Agreed, which is why I propose to increase damage or number of targets on Conflagrate. By increasing damage it is an easy fix to make it threatening. and/or increasing number of targets helps its use in large fight situations (wvw). Less damage per target but more damage done to a whole group.

Tome of Wrath was one of our few ranged targetable aoe skills that could be useful to keep opponents off a point in sPvP or keep doing damage from a wall in WvW. It just needs a boost to make it more worthwhile.

Not everyone runs GS. With my Burn Build conflagate would hit for 1k+ raw dam on top of 1k+ burn dam per sec from 1200 range. I could clear a whole cap point by the time duration ran out.

That’s why I propose new version has quickness +burning rather than quickness +fury (all 3 would be great) in order to retain the best aspect of tome of wrath-conflagate.

yes and a necromancer with lichform does 8k critsfrom 1200 range a meteorshower /lava font does 3-5k crits, 2k damage per cast with a 1/9 uptime is pathetic.

JonPeters.5630:

<snip>

Jon

Hey, Jon! I’m a big fan of your unquestionable eloquence, sharp wit and the legendary sense of humour and I don’t want to derail this thread, but there is this profession in Guild Wars 2, it’s called necromancer and it’s been in a dire need for your attention for a long time. It needs your help.

Feel yourself invited to the necromancer subforum where a red post would be like the Second Coming.

JonPeters.5630:

Wanted to run a potential idea past you all. Comments welcome.

Tome of Courage -> Signet of Courage
Passive: PBAoE Heal every 10 seconds.
Active: Light of Deliverance

Tome of Wrath -> “Feel My Wrath”
Shout that grants Quickness and Fury

We like the idea of tomes and if we did this we would hope to bring them back in a future Elite Specialization.

Thoughts? Comments?

Thanks,

Jon

I would gladly take the signet that AOE heals every 10 sec (if in battle, with a shiny animation pls ^^ ) for my healing, supportive guardian if the heal is decent (maybe even giving a good amount of healing power in addition to it or give guardian +400 healing power baseline or just give healing power overall buff because it is weak as kittycat and doesn’t have a real noticeable impact – especially not over options like raw power).

I use both Tome of Wrath and Tome of Courage, and I would dislike losing the five skills that come with each tome. My main concerns with changing Tome of Courage to a signet is I would lose the ability to aim an AOE heal, and I don’t want the cool down time to be deleterious as you only get to use one skill (light of deliverance) one time instead of several skills for a span of time. Having a signet that heals around you every ten seconds is okay, but hardly worth an elite skill. I am a support guardian, so no one would be around me to be healed. I try to stay away from unhealthy situations, such as angry bosses. Protection is also useful with Tome of Courage and I wouldn’t want to lose that. Would we be able to keep the trait that gives stability with Tome of Courage? The current setup for Tome of Courage is very good for spvp.
I am glad that the proposed change to Tome of Wrath would keep quickness, but my particular build would not be much improved by fury. I suppose fury would be helpful to my melee teammates. I would honestly rather keep the five skills that come with Tome of Wrath, especial the one skill for aimed AOE attacks.

I’d like to see tomes come back in some form of elite spec for a few different classes to be honest. and be designed like an engineer’s tool kits. That would make so much more sense then having a duration on the tome then it’s gone type thing. I’d say that elementalist, necro, and guardian elite specialization would be interesting. Not sure about the other classes maybe engineer or mesmer.

Vizardlorde.8243:

Achrisos.1360:

CMF.5461:

Vizardlorde.8243:

Courage I can see people wanting to keep it wrath,not so much. Conflagrate did less damage than symbol of wrath + whirling wrath in the same time frame to multiple targets. Zealots fervor was the only reason to use tome of wrath when mesmers were not around and a shout makes it better than the tome. binding blade, wards, heck even shelter make better AoE CC not taking into account the new DH AoE CC.

Agreed, which is why I propose to increase damage or number of targets on Conflagrate. By increasing damage it is an easy fix to make it threatening. and/or increasing number of targets helps its use in large fight situations (wvw). Less damage per target but more damage done to a whole group.

Tome of Wrath was one of our few ranged targetable aoe skills that could be useful to keep opponents off a point in sPvP or keep doing damage from a wall in WvW. It just needs a boost to make it more worthwhile.

Not everyone runs GS. With my Burn Build conflagate would hit for 1k+ raw dam on top of 1k+ burn dam per sec from 1200 range. I could clear a whole cap point by the time duration ran out.

That’s why I propose new version has quickness +burning rather than quickness +fury (all 3 would be great) in order to retain the best aspect of tome of wrath-conflagate.

yes and a necromancer with lichform does 8k critsfrom 1200 range a meteorshower /lava font does 3-5k crits, 2k damage per cast with a 1/9 uptime is pathetic.

Lich Form is also a necromancer elite skill with a 20 second duration and 3 minute cooldown. don’t compare an elite skill with basic skills if you want to be taken seriously, please.

rapthorne.7345:

Vizardlorde.8243:

Achrisos.1360:

CMF.5461:

Vizardlorde.8243:

Courage I can see people wanting to keep it wrath,not so much. Conflagrate did less damage than symbol of wrath + whirling wrath in the same time frame to multiple targets. Zealots fervor was the only reason to use tome of wrath when mesmers were not around and a shout makes it better than the tome. binding blade, wards, heck even shelter make better AoE CC not taking into account the new DH AoE CC.

Agreed, which is why I propose to increase damage or number of targets on Conflagrate. By increasing damage it is an easy fix to make it threatening. and/or increasing number of targets helps its use in large fight situations (wvw). Less damage per target but more damage done to a whole group.

Tome of Wrath was one of our few ranged targetable aoe skills that could be useful to keep opponents off a point in sPvP or keep doing damage from a wall in WvW. It just needs a boost to make it more worthwhile.

Not everyone runs GS. With my Burn Build conflagate would hit for 1k+ raw dam on top of 1k+ burn dam per sec from 1200 range. I could clear a whole cap point by the time duration ran out.

That’s why I propose new version has quickness +burning rather than quickness +fury (all 3 would be great) in order to retain the best aspect of tome of wrath-conflagate.

yes and a necromancer with lichform does 8k critsfrom 1200 range a meteorshower /lava font does 3-5k crits, 2k damage per cast with a 1/9 uptime is pathetic.

Lich Form is also a necromancer elite skill with a 20 second duration and 3 minute cooldown. don’t compare an elite skill with basic skills if you want to be taken seriously, please.

Yes but lich form actually force’s people to change their behavior either focus the necro or gtfo of the point cause youll die , 2k tops per cast can easily be ignored while they finish capping.

Since I almost never use either tome I am down for the change.

I love tome of courage just the way it is. In sPvP I become a bunker to be feared. That 30 second protection, bonus 10k hp, pulsing stability. It is really a powerful combo and feel it would be strongly nerfed by switching to a signet. (granted it would still be very nice)

I honestly wish the tomes would become spirit weapons instead. :P

I really like that Signet of Courage idea, adds play on passive mode (you can run up to people to share it’s heal) and makes it less niche since you still benifit even if the full heal can’t be used. I used the tome for light of deliverance anyway.

Tomes have a problem of giving too many skills but too little time to learn to use them. Still, I wonder if it weren’t a better idea to keep tome of wrath but add skills from the other tome (e.g. the daze) and condense it down to fewer than 5 skills. It’s fun to use it after all, and once burning will stack it might actually be useful for damage. Still needs a heal on it, since the current version is rather suicidal, which could be taken from the other tome, so a tome with:
Conflagrate
Heal area or Protective Spirit
Pacifism or Judgment
Zealot’s Fervor

A quickness shout with low recharge might be nice in a shout build, but on it’s own it’s sounds too simplistic to be all that fun.

JonPeters.5630:

Wanted to run a potential idea past you all. Comments welcome.

Tome of Courage -> Signet of Courage
Passive: PBAoE Heal every 10 seconds.
Active: Light of Deliverance

Tome of Wrath -> “Feel My Wrath”
Shout that grants Quickness and Fury

We like the idea of tomes and if we did this we would hope to bring them back in a future Elite Specialization.

Thoughts? Comments?

Thanks,

Jon

I like the general direction but as others already pointed out those skills don’t feel like elites yet. Even if the cooldowns were low the effect aren’t impressive enough. Especially Feel My Wrath looks underwhelming and is slightly redundant if Monks Focus will keep the area Fury.

I liked the suggestion of combining the 4th and 5th effects of the current tomes.

Signet of Courage
Passive: Periodically heal nearby allies.
Active: Light of Deliverence + Pacifism

Feel My Wrath
Judgement + Quickness

i like the idea of the Signet that heals

putting the wrath to a shout sounds nice but would ruin the mesmersupport with quickness timewarp and shield.

if you would want to make a shout out of the thome of wrath my suggestions

• fury, swiftness, retaliation, blast
• 5 stacks might, fury, retaliation
• doubbleblast, fury, retaliation
• weakness cribble might and fury

Vizardlorde.8243:

Achrisos.1360:

CMF.5461:

Vizardlorde.8243:

Courage I can see people wanting to keep it wrath,not so much. Conflagrate did less damage than symbol of wrath + whirling wrath in the same time frame to multiple targets. Zealots fervor was the only reason to use tome of wrath when mesmers were not around and a shout makes it better than the tome. binding blade, wards, heck even shelter make better AoE CC not taking into account the new DH AoE CC.

Agreed, which is why I propose to increase damage or number of targets on Conflagrate. By increasing damage it is an easy fix to make it threatening. and/or increasing number of targets helps its use in large fight situations (wvw). Less damage per target but more damage done to a whole group.

Tome of Wrath was one of our few ranged targetable aoe skills that could be useful to keep opponents off a point in sPvP or keep doing damage from a wall in WvW. It just needs a boost to make it more worthwhile.

Not everyone runs GS. With my Burn Build conflagate would hit for 1k+ raw dam on top of 1k+ burn dam per sec from 1200 range. I could clear a whole cap point by the time duration ran out.

That’s why I propose new version has quickness +burning rather than quickness +fury (all 3 would be great) in order to retain the best aspect of tome of wrath-conflagate.

yes and a necromancer with lichform does 8k critsfrom 1200 range a meteorshower /lava font does 3-5k crits, 2k damage per cast with a 1/9 uptime is pathetic.

Still better than getting… fury. All they have to do is add 1s burning per hit for the duration of the quickness (and fury) and that will make up for what you would have lost from not being able to spam Conflag.

Quick/Fury/Burn > Quick/Fury